Log for #openttd on 18th March 2006:
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00:00:19  <ln-> starring Natalie Portman
00:00:23  <ln-> + others
00:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> oh yeah, now i remember :)
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00:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> where she had to cut her hair :)
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00:05:26  <Darkvater> well gn everybody :)
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01:35:37  <CIA-5> celestar * r3934 /branch/elrail/ (elrail.c tunnelbridge_cmd.c): [elrail] Wires and pylons are now drawn on bridges (no ramps yet, sorry)
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01:53:33  <CIA-5> celestar * r3935 /branch/elrail/elrail.c: [elrail] Fixed a problem with electrification to be displayed incorrectly on stations-on-slopes
01:59:25  <CIA-5> belugas * r3936 /branch/elrail/ (openttd.dsp openttd.vcproj): [elrail] Fix : add elrail.c to MSV project file and workspace. Now, it compiles under MSV6
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02:24:14  <CIA-5> celestar * r3937 /branch/elrail/ (BUGS bridge.h elrail.c):
02:24:14  <CIA-5> [elrail]
02:24:14  <CIA-5> -Add: Drawing code for bridge ramps. This concludes the first development phase of electrified railways.
02:24:14  <CIA-5> -Todo: 1) Bug fixes. See the BUGS file among others. 2) Code cleanup and optimization.
02:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: did you take a look at why my savegame fails to load?
02:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (i use the DBSetXL)
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02:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... your latest changes screwed up the pillars of newbridges (uses the pillars of the old bridges instead, and that is even broken)
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04:07:05  <mandavi> hi, does someone of you play widelands?
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04:08:45  <mandavi> is anyone awake at all?
04:11:37  <Singaporekid> Yes!
04:13:56  <ThePizzaKing> What? Awake? I guess so
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04:19:53  <mandavi> and you have never tried this really nice game?
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07:50:44  <CIA-5> celestar * r3938 /branch/elrail/openttd.c: [elrail]. Networks are no longer upgraded when an electric engine of type Monorail or Maglev exists. (Tron)
07:52:40  * Vornicus tries to figure out what that there actually means.
07:53:32  <Celestar> Vornicus: problem: If you have a monorail engine, it is marked as "electric" (duh). This cause the network to upgrade when loading old savegames.
07:55:58  <Vornicus> So elrail currently upgrades old-school rail networks if you have an electrical train running?
07:56:55  <Vornicus> but the problem was that even if the only electrical trains were running on stuff that's electrified by default (monorails and maglevs), the normal rails were getting upgraded despite not needing it?
07:57:25  <Tron> yes
07:57:40  <Vornicus> okay.
07:57:41  <Tron> that's a problem in the arctic climate
07:57:51  <Tron> there shouldn't be electrified rails there at all
07:58:10  <Tron> because there are no electric trains
07:59:13  <Vornicus> aha
08:00:32  <CIA-5> celestar * r3939 /trunk/ (console_cmds.c oldloader.c station_cmd.c): -Fix: No longer assume that the number of slots is 2. It was not a problem up to now, but it's not The Right Thing (TM) to do either
08:04:04  <Vornicus> "slots"?
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08:04:31  <guru3> yeah...
08:05:04  <Celestar> hell we need a shortcut to clone vehicles
08:05:33  <Tron> Celestar: especially we need to change the default behavior to _share_ the orders, not to _copy_
08:05:42  <guru3> yeah
08:05:55  <Celestar> er they copy?
08:05:59  <Tron> yes
08:06:01  <Vornicus> right now you can control-click to get shared orders.
08:06:17  <Vornicus> Which is actually sorta consistent with the order-copying command.
08:06:49  <Celestar> I need a "Clone every vehicle" command :S
08:07:24  <guru3> or, upgrading vehicules and depots with the tracks
08:07:26  <guru3> that would be good
08:07:28  <Tron> Vornicus: for consistency that should be changed, too
08:07:40  <Vornicus> so that order sharing is also just a click?
08:08:00  <Tron> yes
08:08:19  <Vornicus> sounds like a good idea.  But ten bucks you'll get complaints about such an interface change.
08:08:25  <Tron> all the info text has to be changed of course, too
08:08:51  <Tron> Vornicus: i changed the order double/one way signals flipped, i survived it
08:09:45  <guru3> when was that?
08:09:49  <Celestar> Tron: I still believe hardly anyone noticed that :P
08:10:09  <Tron> Celestar: we had flames on the forums for several days
08:10:20  <Celestar> bah people are complaining about multistop clogging up roads.
08:10:29  <guru3> Oo
08:10:29  <Celestar> and I have a 500-truck game and still cannot reproduce
08:12:02  <Vornicus> I have a 100-truck game that gets pretty damn cloggy.
08:12:04  <Celestar> increasing number of vehicles
08:12:09  <Celestar> Vornicus: please send it to me. PLEASE
08:12:12  <Vornicus> Granted all 100 trucks are in the same town.
08:12:20  <Vornicus> Ok.
08:12:22  <Vornicus> One moment.
08:12:29  <Vornicus> ...I have to remember which one it is.
08:13:53  <Celestar> ok
08:13:54  <Celestar> got it.
08:13:57  <Celestar> 550 vehicles did it.
08:14:32  <Vornicus> okay it's in , it's presberg bay.
08:14:48  <Celestar> having a look later on thanks :)
08:14:55  <Vornicus> ok
08:15:19  <Vornicus> If you want to really start stuff screwing up, click a bus and tell it to full load.
08:15:30  <Vornicus> at one station.
08:19:21  <Vornicus> That station will start to fill up quickly and then things will start turning in to the station and then turning away.
08:21:11  <Celestar> BAH
08:21:19  <Celestar> 550 truck game and openttd uses 78% CPU
08:21:27  <Celestar> oops. FF on :P
08:21:49  <Vornicus> heh
08:21:54  <Celestar> BAH SHIT I have an overfull depot
08:22:15  <Vornicus> heh
08:22:49  <Celestar> guys
08:22:57  <Celestar> we having a bug ...
08:23:04  <Vornicus> ?
08:23:12  <Vornicus> Someone set up us the bug?
08:25:03  <Celestar> Tron:
08:25:13  <Celestar> never mind the clogged trucks, but check the marked depot.
08:25:19  <Celestar> tell me what you make of it please.
08:25:23  <Celestar> => breakfast
08:27:41  <Tron> Celestar: i can't load the game
08:29:18  <peter1138> me neither
08:34:26  <peter1138> Vornicus: currently slot reservations expire even if the vehicle is waiting in the slot
08:35:02  * Vornicus tries to figure context.
08:35:05  <Vornicus> Okay.  Trucks.
08:35:09  <peter1138> hehe
08:35:14  <Vornicus> There's two parking slots in a station.
08:35:31  <peter1138> basically if you have a vehicle waiting on full load in a roadstop, it'll free its slot after a while
08:35:38  <peter1138> then other vehicles think they can get in
08:35:52  <peter1138> Celestar has the fix for this now, heh
08:36:23  <Vornicus> A truck can enter a station only if it has a reservation in a slot in that station... but reservations can expire while a truck is sitting on the slot it owns.
08:37:14  <Vornicus> So this will fix at least partially the multistop problem, right, because the trucks currently try to enter the first open slot... which is actually full... get there, find out it can't get into the slot, goes around, and tries the same slot again.
08:37:28  <Vornicus> Yes?
08:38:00  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3940 /trunk/ (data/openttd.grf gfx.c gfxinit.c): - FS#56 ?6?8?8 [Crash] Missing glyph(s) in big-font. Added several missing glyphs for the big font.
08:40:36  <Darkvater> fcking FS
08:40:51  <Vornicus> fs being flyspray?
08:40:56  <Darkvater> yes
08:41:19  <Darkvater> FS#56 ?6?8?8 <-- stupid
08:41:27  <Vornicus> I... see.
08:41:37  <guru3> Of... course.
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08:53:01  <peter1138> Vornicus: yes
08:53:11  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: what your problem with FS?
08:53:22  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: ahh, I see
08:53:44  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: that big hyphen is not in iso8859-1 :)
08:54:09  <MiHaMiX>  FS#56 ? [Crash] Missing glyph(s) in big-font
08:54:39  <MiHaMiX> but primarily your web browser is stupid, since at me the title of the bug page looks like above
08:54:55  * Vornicus feels smart!  He can sorta figure things out!
08:57:52  <peter1138> heh
09:01:12  <Darkvater> MiHaMiX: well svn doesn't like it
09:01:26  <Darkvater> MiHaMiX: I already changed the commit message :)
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09:06:10  <CIA-5> tron * r3941 /trunk/ (rail.h rail_cmd.c): Get rid of RAIL_TYPE_SPECIAL
09:10:51  <peter1138> got to go
09:11:09  <peter1138> won't be back until tomorrow evening
09:11:16  <Tron> cu
09:11:22  <guru3> hf
09:11:39  * Vornicus wonders what rail_type_special was supposed to do in the first place.
09:12:04  <Celestar> Tron: forget it
09:12:06  <Celestar> works
09:12:13  <Tron> hm?
09:12:16  <Tron> ah, the save, ok
09:12:54  <Celestar> hm ...
09:16:55  <Patrick`> by the way, I always used to start in 2040, so I never appreciated this before
09:17:03  <Patrick`> whoever wrote autoreplace deserves a gold medal
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09:19:53  <Celestar> ^^
09:20:41  <Darkvater> <-- what to backport to Please comment and discuss
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09:22:03  <Celestar> can I delete a vehicle from console?
09:22:05  <chu_> hi
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09:22:12  <Celestar> hi chu_
09:22:30  <Celestar> Darkvater: why backport?
09:22:37  <guru3> Celestar, but the very nature of it being a good idea, probably not
09:22:38  <Celestar> isn't trunk currently heading to
09:23:03  <Celestar> guru3: for debugging ...
09:23:08  <guru3> hrhr
09:26:37  <Darkvater> Celestar: no, just a bugfix release
09:30:19  <Noldo> Darkvater: what is that debian packaging stuff?
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09:30:31  <Darkvater> beats me
09:30:56  <Celestar> Darkvater: when is it going to take place?
09:32:04  <Darkvater> hopefully weekend :)P
09:32:18  <Darkvater>
09:33:28  <Celestar> Darkvater: I'm just working full steam on improving multistop for about every possible situtation ..
09:33:45  <Darkvater> hmm
09:34:14  <Celestar> aka the RR system
09:34:15  <Darkvater> I think the MS fixes should not be there as it is totally changed, as pointed rightly out by tron
09:34:35  <Darkvater> we just want to fix some crashes, etc. in 0.4.5 as a quick bugfix release instead of adding all kinds of stuff
09:35:27  <Darkvater> Celestar: hopefully elrails is done soon and we can tag branch :)
09:37:51  <chu_> i still do not like the autoreplace and autorenew features. they are a little bit too much automatic
09:38:40  <chu_> almost two years ago, i wrote a semi-automatic replace
09:38:41  <Noldo> chu_: you enjoy it more when all you have time to do in the game is renew your old vehicles?
09:39:33  <chu_> Noldo: no I don't. but i do not like to waste money for vehicles which have poor ratings
09:39:46  <chu_> Noldo: and autorenew would do exactly this
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09:40:27  <Celestar> Darkvater: well, check the svn log and commit times
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09:40:54  <chu_> the patch i wrote that time was on but unfortunately darkvater did not really understand what it did and dumped it into the bin
09:41:59  <chu_> after playing ottd after some time again, the problem still exists - even with 2 automatic replace/renew-features in the code
09:42:35  <Celestar> chu_: which problem would tht be?
09:43:39  <chu_> Celestar: if you turn the "renew when it gets old"-patch, all vehicles become renewed, even if you better should sell it and close the tour
09:44:11  <chu_> Celestar: if you use the automatic-replace, all vehicles of a type become the "beste" (and most times) most expensive type
09:44:26  <chu_> , even if one wants to stick with an older (but cheaper) type
09:44:34  <Patrick`> that's the whole point of autoreplace
09:44:55  <chu_> Patrick`: yes it is. but it's much too auto for my impression
09:45:02  <Patrick`> that's a shame.
09:45:13  <Patrick`> I would suggest that you code a patch for it, but you've already done it
09:46:20  <chu_> yes, i did. like i did some more patches, bugfixes and some translations too
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09:47:44  <chu_> but the patch was against svn-version 45
09:47:58  <chu_> i doubt that it would work still ;)
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09:52:55  <Celestar> doubtful.
09:53:09  <Celestar> chu_: Bjarni is your man on autoreplace/renew :)
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09:57:02  <Tron> chu_: it's not the job of autoreplace to decide which trains to keep
09:58:18  <Tron> if you want to check for unprofitable trains, open the train list and sort by income
09:58:26  <chu_> Tron: excatly. but turning on either one of the current auto-features, i cannot do this decission any longer
09:58:36  <Tron> huh?
09:59:03  <Tron> autoreplacing doesn't magically break the vehicle list
09:59:32  <chu_> Tron: the "computer" replaces/renews the vehicles when it's time. so i have to have a look on the vehicle-window
09:59:56  <Tron> of course, you told it to replcace trains, so it does exactly that
10:00:09  <Tron> if you don't want it to replace trains, don't tell it to replace trains
10:00:12  <chu_> Tron: and i have to have this look on all 4 vehicle windows, in order to - yeah. to do what?
10:01:04  <chu_> Tron: when does a vehicle gets replaced/renewed? i tell you: n days before it "gets old"
10:01:05  <Tron> hell, you even get warnings by news if a vehicle is unprofitable
10:02:06  <chu_> Tron: but if you send a vehicle which is old to a depot, when replace and/or renew is active, it gets replaced/renewed as soon as it reaches the depot - doesn't it?
10:03:07  <Tron> i don't know, i not exactly involved in that matter. even if it does, what do you lose? 5$ for selling a 2 days old vehicle?
10:03:36  <chu_> of course there has to be a little bit support by the game in replace/renew. with >100 trains and huge maps, the old system of sending a vehicle to the depot and manually replace it, just doesn't scale
10:04:18  <Celestar> Tron: I think what he means is this:
10:04:48  <Celestar> YOu identify a vehicle that you want to sell. you send it to depot. when it arrives at depot it gets replaced / renewed automagically.
10:04:59  <Celestar> Bottom Line: Vehicles should not be replaced if sent to depot manually.
10:05:01  <Celestar> right?
10:05:02  <Tron> Celestar: "even if it does, what do you lose? 5$ for selling a 2 days old vehicle?"
10:05:16  <Celestar> yeah I know.
10:05:27  <Celestar> it's not optimal anyways :P
10:05:42  <Celestar> Vornicus: you got a sec to try a diff?
10:05:55  <chu_> Tron: i think the stats for profit (last and this year) of the new vehicle are reset to 0
10:06:22  <Tron> r3112 | bjarni | 2005-10-31 15:30:45 +0100 (Mo, 31 Okt 2005) | 1 line
10:06:22  <Tron> -Feature: [autoreplace] profit counters are now remembered too (request by Darkvater)
10:06:45  <chu_> at least one thing
10:07:03  <Tron> and that was for the reworked autoreplace
10:07:12  <Tron> the old autoreplace remebered it, too
10:07:26  <Celestar> RFC:
10:07:44  <Tron> because it was a hack which overwrote the vehicle info instead of selling a vehicle and buying a new one
10:07:59  <Vornicus> I might be able to.  Let me see.
10:08:05  <chu_> Tron: does it the renew-feature too? i am not sure
10:08:11  <Tron> Celestar: wth is a primary slot?
10:08:23  <Vornicus> ...Though you're going to have to tell me how to apply it, and I'll need to remember how to pull the latest revision off of svn.
10:08:33  <Tron> chu_: it's the same piece of code
10:09:13  <Celestar> Vornicus: what OS?
10:09:33  <Celestar> Tron: read on, it'll clear up.
10:09:36  <Vornicus> MacOS X 10.3.9
10:09:36  <Tron> Celestar: fundamental problem: no matter how many hold slots there are, there are too few
10:09:51  <Vornicus> 10,000!
10:10:14  <Celestar> Tron: then you still have the "wait for slot" thingy
10:10:30  <chu_> Tron: ok. fine
10:10:38  <Tron> ok, and what benefit does it exactly have then?
10:11:41  <chu_> Tron: your suggestion for a game with lots of vehicles is. turn on both autoreplace and autorenew and scan the vehicle list manually for vehicles with poor profit on a regular intervall
10:11:50  <chu_> Tron: right?
10:12:14  <Vornicus> I have diff and svn.  I just have to remember how to use them.
10:12:42  <Celestar> Tron: much less "wait for slot" operations.
10:12:59  <Celestar> Tron: first, vehicles are distribute to available loading bays.
10:13:13  <Celestar> Tron: second, vehicles are distrubuted in a round robin fashin
10:13:25  <Celestar> Tron: third, the vehicle waits for things to clear up
10:15:40  * Vornicus checks out OTTD.
10:17:09  <Vornicus> okay.  I have the source tree, I have the diff...
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10:18:29  <Celestar> Vornicus: patch -p0 < the_diff_file
10:18:47  <Patrick`> or,
10:18:48  <Vornicus> in trunk?  or above trunk?
10:18:52  <Celestar> Vornicus: in trunk
10:18:53  <Patrick`> patch -p0 -i the_file
10:19:04  <Celestar> or cat thefile | patch -p0
10:19:21  <Vornicus> that's zero not Oh?
10:19:23  <Tron> you win the useless-use-of-cat-award
10:19:30  <Tron> < thefile patch -p0
10:19:37  <Tron> if you really want the input file before the command
10:19:37  <Patrick`> or or cat thefile|rev|cat|rev|cat|rev|cat|rev|patch -p0
10:19:41  <Vornicus>
10:19:52  <Vornicus> MAKE UP YOUR MIND
10:20:07  <Patrick`> hee hee
10:20:21  * Vornicus makes
10:21:23  <Celestar> Tron: yes I do :)
10:21:42  * Vornicus gets warnings about a lot of airpirt things that are defined but not used.
10:21:47  <Tron> then put the < file before the command, as i said
10:22:22  <Celestar> I love it when you close realplayer to stop an audio stream, and the program disappears but the stream goes on and on.
10:22:35  * Vornicus uses Patrick`'s first one, because it conforms to his sensibilities.
10:22:54  <Vornicus> more warnings: three tree sprites things.
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10:23:40  * Vornicus figures this is probably normal, but is not familiar with the build process.
10:23:58  <Vornicus> smallmap_vegetation_andor DbnU
10:25:11  <Vornicus> _illegal_curves DbnU
10:25:32  <Vornicus> ...and it errored out.
10:25:32  <Vornicus> ===> Linking openttd
10:25:32  <Vornicus> ld: unknown flag: -rpath
10:25:32  <Vornicus> make: *** [openttd] Error 1
10:25:33  <Celestar> Vornicus: could you spit out all warnings somewhere?
10:25:40  <Celestar> er?
10:25:46  <Tron> somewhere != this channel
10:25:57  <Celestar> who broke the MacOS build?
10:26:09  <Vornicus> I don't know.
10:27:45  <Vornicus>
10:28:17  <Vornicus> It wasn't me, though.  I haven't touched the makefile.
10:28:45  <Tron> sorry, that's useless, you removed all relevant information
10:28:59  <Vornicus>
10:29:11  <Tron> thanks
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10:29:28  <Celestar> Vornicus: gcc -dumpversion says what?
10:29:39  <Vornicus> 3.3
10:29:45  <Tron> Celestar: it's OSX's gcc
10:30:00  <Celestar> Tron: that spits out ... interesting ... warning
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10:30:34  <Tron> it produces sensible warnigs and i have no idea why the gcc guys didn't merge it into the official version
10:30:46  <Celestar> but .... we should finally get rid of the idea to declare variables in .h files :S
10:31:00  <Tron> don't tell me, i don't do that
10:31:43  <Celestar> neither do I.
10:32:03  <Celestar> .oO(I can remember people copying my railtypes.c into a railtypes.h)
10:33:18  <Celestar> Tron: at least gcc can produce a warning if it is declared twice :S
10:33:20  <Celestar> fwiw
10:33:38  <Tron> eh?
10:33:44  <Tron> declared twice? what?
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10:34:03  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
10:34:08  <Bjarni> hi people
10:34:12  <Celestar> foo.h: int somevar; foo.c: #include foo.h && bar.c: #include foo.h
10:34:17  <Vornicus> bjarni!
10:34:31  <Bjarni> ohuh
10:34:39  * Bjarni hides
10:34:40  <Vornicus> Just the guy I wanted to see!
10:34:48  <Vornicus> ===> Linking openttd
10:34:48  <Vornicus> ld: unknown flag: -rpath
10:34:48  <Vornicus> make: *** [openttd] Error 1
10:34:56  <Bjarni> o_O
10:35:00  <Vornicus> the mac build doesn't
10:35:03  <Bjarni> from a clean checkout?
10:35:16  <Bjarni> from the main trunk?
10:36:09  <Bjarni> it would be nice to get a yes/no reply
10:36:16  <Bjarni> specially if I'm going to fix it ;)
10:36:18  <Vornicus> Actually I had applied a patch, but it didn't touch the makefiles at all.
10:36:35  <Vornicus> now I'm trying a make on a clean copy.
10:36:40  <Tron> Celestar: -fno-common
10:36:55  <Celestar> Tron: yeah
10:37:00  <Celestar> that's the best you can get :(
10:37:09  <Tron> why the sad face?
10:37:34  <Tron> it explodes the very moment you have to common symbols with the same name
10:39:44  <Celestar> because it doesn't warn you about declarations outside source files ;)
10:40:40  <Celestar> Tron: but I have a compiler who does \o/
10:42:00  <Bjarni> Vornicus: I can compile the newest revision
10:42:13  <Bjarni> Vornicus: are you sure the patch didn't touch the makefile?
10:42:40  <Vornicus> [Gardner:~/Game sources and data/OTTD/trunk] vorn% patch -p0 -i ~/Downloads/msslot.diff
10:42:41  <Vornicus> patching file station_cmd.c
10:42:41  <Vornicus> patching file roadveh_cmd.c
10:42:41  <Vornicus> patching file saveload.c
10:42:41  <Vornicus> patching file station.h
10:42:41  <Vornicus> [Gardner:~/Game sources and data/OTTD/trunk] vorn%
10:43:14  <Bjarni> hmm
10:43:15  <Vornicus> <--- the patch, by Celestar
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10:44:07  <Bjarni> -rpath is not used when I compile OR in the patch
10:44:54  <Bjarni> or in the makefile
10:44:59  <Celestar> Vornicus: need a vaviour.
10:45:04  <Celestar> favour*
10:45:23  <Celestar> what is the exact output of gcc -W -Wall ai/trolly/trolly.c -c -O2
10:45:53  <Vornicus> [Gardner:~/Game sources and data/OTTD/trunk] vorn% gcc -W -Wall ai/trolly/trolly.c -c -O2
10:45:53  <Vornicus> In file included from ai/trolly/trolly.c:20:
10:45:53  <Vornicus> stdafx.h:187: warning: redefinition of `uint'
10:45:53  <Vornicus> /usr/include/sys/types.h:83: warning: `uint' previously declared here
10:45:53  <Vornicus> ai/trolly/trolly.c: In function `AiNew_CheckVehicleStation':
10:45:53  <Vornicus> ai/trolly/trolly.c:540: warning: unused parameter `p'
10:45:55  <Vornicus> ai/ai.h: At top level:
10:45:57  <Vornicus> ai/trolly/trolly.h:168: warning: `_illegal_curves' defined but not used
10:46:04  <Celestar> bah.
10:46:13  <Celestar> why do I NOT get that last warning ?!
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10:46:22  <Vornicus> dunno.
10:46:27  <Celestar> the gcc guys said I ought to
10:46:52  <Bjarni> remember that Apple gcc is known to give more warnings than normal gcc ;)
10:47:04  <Vornicus> Okay, I just grepped the entire trunk, there's nothing about rpath in it at all, unless you count this line: npf.h:typedef struct NPFFoundTargetData { /* Meant to be stored in AyStar.userpath */
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10:47:31  <Bjarni> well, I don't think that line breaks anything
10:47:39  <Bjarni> at least not in linking
10:47:50  <Vornicus> yeah, probably not.
10:47:53  <Celestar> no
10:48:05  <Celestar> Vornicus: link manually :P
10:48:06  * Vornicus wonders where on earth it's getting rpath then.
10:48:09  <Tron> Vornicus: make info
10:48:20  <Celestar> make info or make -n might be of help
10:48:43  <Bjarni> or at least make VERBOSE:=1 so you can see what it actually tries to do
10:49:43  <Vornicus> make info and make -n both give me nothing at all about rpath.
10:50:31  <Bjarni> then try VERBOSE:=1
10:50:45  <Vornicus> the whole command is "make VERBOSE:=1"?
10:50:50  <Bjarni> yes
10:50:56  <Vornicus> okiedoke
10:51:05  <Bjarni> then it prints every line it executes before executing it
10:51:30  <Vornicus> -rpath,/usr/lib <---???
10:52:03  <Bjarni> Vornicus: paste your whole linking command to
10:52:11  <Celestar> Tron: I found the reason why we don't get the warning that Vornicus gets.
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10:52:36  <Bjarni> it might give a clue where it's located compared to the other arguments
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10:52:57  <Vornicus>
10:53:04  <Bjarni> that works too
10:53:29  <Vornicus> I have my editor pointed at my website at all times for the default save path.
10:53:32  <Bjarni> ahh
10:53:36  <Bjarni> found the reason
10:53:38  <Bjarni> I think
10:53:45  <Bjarni> check Makefile.config
10:53:51  <Celestar> the problem is the "," after the rpath
10:54:00  <Bjarni> can you see any rpath in it?
10:54:45  <Bjarni> it's likely to be in the crosscompiler flags or universal binary flags
10:54:48  <Bjarni> if it's there
10:54:49  <Tron> Celestar: and you're going to keep that secret?
10:54:59  <Vornicus> no.
10:55:02  <Celestar> Tron: I was just verifying it with some gcc dev.
10:55:08  <Celestar> Tron: the "const" kills the warning
10:55:33  <Bjarni> Vornicus: then verify that it's not in os/macosx/Makefile or os/macosx/Makefile.setup
10:55:37  <Vornicus> ok
10:55:56  <Bjarni> I have no idea how it should end up there, but it have to appear from somewhere
10:56:01  <Celestar> Tron: and the usage in the .c file as well :S
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10:56:26  <Vornicus> neither of those have anything that says path in them.
10:56:39  <Bjarni> hmm
10:56:46  <Tron> Celestar: i know that the const does that. the gcc info page says that. but i still have no idea why they chose this retarded behavior which cannot be turned off
10:56:49  <Bjarni> try export and see if you got any rpath in there
10:56:59  <Celestar> Tron: I'm just trying to talk some sense into them ;)
10:57:02  <Bjarni> given that you use bash, that is
10:57:14  <Vornicus> I use tcsh.
10:57:22  <Tron> Celestar: rather talk a brick wall into bending over
10:57:24  <Bjarni> then it's setenv... I think
10:57:24  <Patrick`> you insane insane person
10:57:31  <Patrick`> I use the python interactive interpreter
10:57:35  <Tron> Celestar: the chances are way better
10:57:43  <Patrick`> with standard imports, I'm not insane
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10:58:10  <Celestar> Tron: nah, my girlfriend can do the easy tasks ;)
10:58:19  <Vornicus> No path in there other than variable names.
10:59:16  <Bjarni> -lz -L/usr/lib -L/usr/lib -Wl,-rpath,/usr/lib -lpng12 -lz -lm -lpng12 -lz -lm <-- now that I think about it, I don't get -lm
10:59:46  <Bjarni> try "libpng-config --libs"
11:00:07  <Vornicus> -lpng12 -lz -lm
11:00:07  <Bjarni> and
11:00:08  <Bjarni> libpng-config --ldflags
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11:00:28  <Vornicus> ...well then.
11:00:29  <Vornicus> -L/usr/lib -Wl,-rpath,/usr/lib -lpng12 -lz -lm
11:01:04  <Bjarni> ok, so it's a libpng issue
11:01:18  <Bjarni> you didn't use fink to install it, right?
11:01:40  <Bjarni> I mean you compiled from source manually or something, right?
11:01:48  <Vornicus> I compiled from source, yes.
11:01:59  <Bjarni> well, you did it wrong :p
11:02:00  <Vornicus> I never actually got fink to work.
11:02:12  <Bjarni> it's so easy
11:02:20  <Vornicus> I tried using it and it crashed my computer, like.
11:02:27  <Bjarni> you download the dmg that fits your OS version, installs it and that's it
11:02:38  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
11:02:52  <Bjarni> then you run "fink selfupdate" to ensure that you will download the newest packages when you install stuff
11:03:10  <Vornicus> so now I've got what I think is approximately have a fink install, that makes me unable to use newer versions of xChat Aqua.
11:03:18  <Vornicus> s/have/half/
11:03:33  <Bjarni> and then you run "fink install libpng3" to install libpng
11:03:44  <Bjarni> and then you will not get weird flags that breaks compilation
11:04:31  <Bjarni> the quick and dirty solution would be to edit libpng-config and remove the rpath thing. I don't think you need it and it breaks compilation
11:04:40  <Celestar> Tron: no further response from the gcc guys :P
11:04:52  <Celestar> Tron: maybe we should switch to icc? :P
11:07:29  <Celestar> at least that one produces interesting warnings :P
11:07:40  <Celestar> 90% of which are type-related.
11:07:47  <Celestar> I'm out a bit
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11:09:29  <Tron> <Celestar> 90% of which are type-related. <-- and totally useless
11:11:10  <Celestar> basically enum stuff
11:12:24  <ln-> MiHaMiX: are you sober enough to commit: 18:30 < ln-> MiHaMiX: could you commit this, please:
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11:14:12  <Bjarni> ln-: you have to be drunk to commit text like that
11:14:25  <Bjarni> I have no idea how to say those words :p
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11:15:38  <tank> hey.. you have no humppa in openttd... :(
11:15:52  <tank> :D
11:15:53  * Vornicus tries the new build of openttd, finds it... um.
11:16:10  <Vornicus> WEll, so far I've seen five trains crash /on the title screen/
11:16:23  <Singaporekid> Humppa! :D
11:16:27  <stavrosg> :o
11:16:33  <Bjarni> Vornicus: o_O
11:16:49  <Bjarni> signal patch or something?
11:17:35  <Vornicus> I wouldn't think so, considering the four files that were patched, but.
11:17:56  <Bjarni> you mean they crash into each other, right?
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11:18:07  <Vornicus> Yeah.
11:18:25  <Vornicus> First the train coming out of the tunnel north of the city crashes into the train coming out of the depot...
11:18:42  <Vornicus> then a pair of maglevs crash into each other in the southeast of the city...
11:19:03  <Vornicus> and then another train crashes into the mess up at the top.
11:20:21  <Vornicus> happens every time with the new build.
11:20:49  <Bjarni> try a clean build
11:20:57  <Bjarni> just for comparison
11:21:07  <Tron> ln-: is a whitespace before -linja-auto correct?
11:22:09  <tank> Singaporekid: at least one in here...:)
11:22:28  <Singaporekid> :o
11:22:36  * Vornicus gets something to drink while it builds.
11:22:49  <tank> we should find a word, which we could use "humppa" for ;)
11:22:58  <tank> what about humppa as a good?:)
11:23:07  <Bjarni> Vornicus: yeah, beer always helps when finding bugs
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11:23:25  <Vornicus> but now that I think about it I think I didn't see /any signals at all/ on the entire title screen.
11:23:29  <Bjarni> or try the Russian strategy: vodka to find bugs
11:23:36  <Bjarni> lol
11:23:44  <Vornicus> Which would be, you know.
11:23:47  <Bjarni> signal removal patch :p
11:23:49  <Vornicus> a Bad Thing(TM(TM)
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11:25:25  <ln-> Tron: yes, it is correct.
11:25:41  <Tron> sometimes there is a whitespace, sometimes not
11:25:55  <Tron> *shrug*
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11:27:37  <Bjarni> Tron: it IS an alien language after all
11:27:41  <ln-> Tron: when the first part (the name) has a space in it, then a space is needed before "-linja-auto" to point out that "-linja-auto" refers to the whole name, not just the latter word.
11:27:49  <Vornicus> okay.  clean build on 3941.
11:27:59  <Vornicus> Crash!
11:28:06  <Vornicus> signals are /there/ but not being enforced.
11:28:09  <Tron> Vornicus: i'm watching the title screen for ten minutes now, not a single crash
11:28:30  <Vornicus> 0.4.5 exhibits no such behavior.
11:28:46  <Bjarni> Vornicus: try the nightly build
11:29:03  <Bjarni> I think it's your system that creates odd stuff
11:29:12  <Bjarni> like libpng-config did
11:29:45  <Vornicus> that would be downright strange.
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11:30:14  <Bjarni> the rpath thing is downright strange
11:30:48  <Vornicus> Okay.  3923, built somewhere else, no crashes.
11:31:03  <_Luca_> Morning
11:31:28  <Vornicus> Celestar, I cannot test your thing, my build is cheese enough already.
11:31:48  <Tron> hm, maybe a typo on 3941
11:32:22  <Vornicus> I would not be able to tell problems made by the fact that my build is /freaking strange/ fromproblems made by your patch.
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11:37:09  <Tron> GetRailType != GetRailTileType
11:37:28  <Vornicus> So there /was/ a bug after all?
11:37:43  <Tron> [12:31:48] <Tron> hm, maybe a typo on 3941
11:38:01  <_Luca_> hmm
11:38:04  * Vornicus is actually sorta surprised he was the only one that found it.
11:38:04  <_Luca_> who broke the intro screen
11:38:15  <_Luca_> one train crashes into another within a second of loading
11:38:17  <Vornicus>
11:38:47  <CIA-5> tron * r3942 /trunk/rail_cmd.c: GetRailType() != GetRailTileType(), fix r3941
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11:41:22  <MiHaMiX> ln-: yes, I'm
11:41:53  <MiHaMiX> ln-: please create a patch.
11:41:57  <Vornicus> Luca, just before you came in we were talking about how on my machine everything blows up, but on everybody else's machine nothing does.
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11:42:04  <MiHaMiX> bbl, 15 minutes
11:42:55  <Vornicus> and 3942 should fix it.
11:45:03  <Vornicus> okay, much better.
11:45:25  <Vornicus> now however I need my beautyrest
11:45:32  <Vornicus> that and my butt hurts.
11:45:48  <Vornicus> thank you tron and bjarni!
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11:47:50  <Celestar> Vornicus: what is broken?
11:47:57  <Tron> nothing
11:48:15  <Celestar> ok :P
11:48:22  <Vornicus> nothing, any more.  but before, signals didn't work.
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11:50:22  <ln-> MiHaMiX: sure i can create a patch if you want, but in what way is it better than just the normal file?
11:51:54  <Tron> TRACK_BIT_RIGHT | TRACK_BIT_UPPER | TRACK_BIT_X <-- any suggestions for a good short name for this?
11:52:03  <Bjarni> <Vornicus>	that and my butt hurts. <-- spare us for details
11:52:11  <Tron> these are all tracks which end in the north east edge of a tile
11:53:39  <Tron> this and the combinations for the other 3 edges are used quite often to deserve a name of their own
11:56:08  <MiHaMiX> ln-: i can check the diff much easier
12:06:44  <Tron> no suggestions?
12:10:25  <Celestar> back
12:10:43  <Tron> Celestar: good, any suggestions?
12:10:58  <Celestar> Tron: concerning?
12:11:02  <ln-> MiHaMiX: err... you just copy that file to lang/ and say "svn diff". i don't see the hard part.
12:11:21  <Tron> Celestar: a few lines up
12:11:48  <Celestar> Tron: 3_WAY_SWITCH_NE
12:11:54  <MiHaMiX> ln-: i know that way, but I don't have time. please provide a unified diff and i'll revise then commit your changes. pretty please, I have to fix a server urgently.
12:12:06  <Tron> Celestar: TRACK_BIT_3WAY_NE ?
12:12:13  <Celestar> Tron: deal
12:12:20  <Tron> it should start with TRACK_BIT_
12:12:23  <Tron> ok
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12:13:40  <ln-> MiHaMiX: there you go:
12:14:55  <MiHaMiX> ln-: thank you very much, lemme check it
12:16:52  <CIA-5> miham * r3943 /trunk/lang/finnish.txt: [Manual translations update: finnish (thanks to ln-)]
12:17:21  <MiHaMiX> ln-: thanks for the patch
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12:20:17  <Celestar> people: should semaphores be default for conventional railway? (in the elrail branch?)
12:21:43  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: good idea
12:21:51  <Celestar> noted.
12:23:48  <Celestar> Born_Acorn: !!!!
12:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember in TTO, semaphores were default until 1950, then light signals
12:24:06  <Eddi|zuHause> why was that abolished?
12:24:13  <Celestar> "Thats good to hear, but will the "outside" be defined by left side/rigth side driving?" <= WHAT THE HELL do you mean Born_Acorn ?
12:24:23  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: it wasn't. Just the game starts in 1950 now :>
12:24:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i start my games in 1921 with the dbsetxl
12:24:54  <Patrick`> new cool idea:
12:24:58  <Patrick`> load balancing signals
12:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and i have to ctrl-click to get semaphores
12:25:21  <Patrick`> every time a train passes through a 2-exit junction, the one that's permanently red changes
12:25:31  <Patrick`> so, you split a stream of trains 50-50
12:25:44  <Patrick`> if I give them a choice now, the pathfinder will cram the shortest route full
12:25:57  <Bjarni> <-- check this out
12:26:04  <Bjarni> the patch is actually working now :)
12:26:15  <Patrick`> coo
12:26:36  <Celestar> peter1138: you there?
12:26:45  <Bjarni> ---	[peter1138] is away (back sunday)
12:26:48  <Bjarni> I don't think so
12:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Patrick`: really? i thought i heard discussions that the pathfinder assigns red signals on the way with a higher number
12:28:24  <Bjarni> <-- any comments before I commit?
12:28:46  <Bjarni> or testers for that matter
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12:29:01  <blazzaj> hello!
12:29:49  <Celestar> hi there
12:30:15  <blazzaj> is there a program or something to run an open ttd multiplayer server?
12:30:24  <blazzaj> i mean different than the game's option to host it
12:30:26  <Tron> yes, it's called openttd
12:30:28  <blazzaj> like with more options
12:30:35  <blazzaj> :)
12:30:46  <Tron> more options? there aren't more options
12:31:05  <Bjarni> what more options do you want?
12:31:20  <Bjarni> I think it already got what's needed
12:31:47  <blazzaj> i too but in some games the map resets every 4 hours while in others the game only resets in 2050
12:31:54  <blazzaj> can you set that?
12:31:59  <Celestar> blazzaj: you can change that ;)
12:32:47  <blazzaj> how?
12:32:54  <Bjarni> <Bjarni> <-- any comments before I commit? <-- everybody think it's brilliant and have no comments to it at all?
12:33:26  <Celestar> Bjarni: RFC: A train with one electric and one diesel engine should be able to drive on non-electric tracks.
12:33:28  <Tron> Bjarni: what does it do?
12:33:51  <Bjarni> Tron: control-click on an engine turns it around in the train depot
12:34:01  <Bjarni> it's an improved version of the one peter1138 made yesterday
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12:34:07  <Prof_Frink> Celestar: Aye, but with the power of the diesel only
12:34:30  <Celestar> I mean would that happen during normal operation?
12:34:37  <Celestar> I'm not really sure about that.
12:34:49  <Bjarni> this one should be bug free and don't turn parts of multiheaded engines and so on
12:35:08  <ln-> Bjarni: why would someone like to reverse an engine, especially only in depot?
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12:35:11  <Bjarni> Celestar: normally you would stop the train and turn the electric engine off and then continue on diesel only
12:35:13  <Prof_Frink> Celestar: It would be good if the running costs were also reduced for the electric (say by half) so you could have them as boosters for hills
12:35:31  <Bjarni> ln-: see the screenshot
12:35:47  <Celestar> Bjarni: but you would carry them around?
12:35:58  <Celestar> but I'd have to remove cached_power then.
12:36:06  <Celestar> as power = f(RailType);
12:36:07  <Bjarni> Celestar: that depends on what you plan to do with it
12:36:42  <Bjarni> if you build catenary on one line and another one, you will use diesel to move eletric trains between them
12:36:43  <Celestar> WTF is an "Articulated Part" ?
12:36:48  <ln-> Bjarni: that doesn't answer the question "why". :)
12:37:36  <Bjarni> Celestar: that's all the parts of an articulated engine that's not first, say tenders
12:37:43  <Celestar> I see
12:38:29  <Bjarni> ln-: I made it because the US set got a DMU (or GMU since it's gasolin powered) and I was unable to turn it so it looked silly having one in each end facing the same way
12:38:35  <Bjarni> also the patch can do this
12:38:40  <Celestar> Bjarni: I see.
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12:39:02  <Celestar> how does TTDP handle mixed consists ? (one diesel, one electric engine)
12:39:26  <Bjarni> Celestar: I have no idea how the patch handles mixed electric and diesel
12:39:55  <Celestar> is anyone able to check?
12:40:08  <ln-> Bjarni: i think the ability to drive an engine reversed has some potential.. e.g. when a train reverses at the end of the line, the engine could "reverse" too.
12:40:11  <Bjarni> I only got PPC hardware here, so I can't
12:40:32  <Bjarni> ln-: yeah, I thought about that too, but let's take it one step at a time ;)
12:41:49  <Bjarni> ln-: I thought about it, but I ran into problems, like the tender all of a sudden was in front of the engine and the engine got the front engine info like train number and orders
12:42:37  <Bjarni> surely we can fix this, but then the patch will turn much bigger
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12:42:58  <Singaporekid> :o
12:43:01  <Bjarni> in real life steam engines do drive with the tender in front once in a while
12:43:21  <Celestar> but not really often.
12:43:41  <Bjarni> <-- like here
12:44:38  <Bjarni> the issues are that the tenders aren't built for high speed and often makes a speed limit of 60 km/h when they are in front
12:44:51  <Bjarni> that and they tend to blow coal dust into the cab
12:45:07  <ln-> turntables are needed in ottd.
12:46:32  <Celestar> ln-: I think so too, but go code them
12:46:39  <Bjarni> :)
12:46:44  <Celestar> I would LOVE to see non-reversing trains one day.
12:47:10  <Bjarni> actually I don't mind reversing trains. It's the turn-around thing I don't like
12:47:20  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause: well, the ins and outs of the pathfinder are neither here nor there
12:47:30  <Patrick`> fact is, if I want to split over 2 lines, it won't be 50:50
12:47:34  <Bjarni> it's interesting to see trains reverse out of stations with the engine last at say 40 km/h
12:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Patrick`: then tweak the pathfinder to recognize such setups
12:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> not introduce Yet Another Signal State
12:48:41  <ln-> having turntables would require one significant change: being able to separate the engine from the wagons temporarily. is that ever going to happen?
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12:48:55  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause: I agree
12:49:09  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause: I have an ulterior motive in proposing flip-flops
12:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ln-: on that line, i think we should have more realistic depots in general
12:49:19  <Bjarni> what we should have should be a vehicle pool containing the "hardware" of the vehicles and then a vehicle controller pool containing names/numbers, orders and so on
12:49:19  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause: turing machines can then be contstructed
12:49:40  <Bjarni> those should be linked together and when reversing we just move a pointer from one end to the other one
12:50:02  <Celestar> Bjarni: I mean if vehicles magically change positions
12:50:02  <ln-> that change would allow other things too: there could be two sets of wagons, one of which could be loaded at a station while the other was is being taken to the destination by an engine.
12:51:11  <ln-> it's un-economic to keep an expensive engine waiting for months on a station while the wagons are slowly loaded.
12:51:45  <Bjarni> ln-: yeah, but it's long time planning. Almost everything depends on our current design
12:52:18  <Bjarni> so nobody would say anything negative if I commit this patch?
12:52:35  <Bjarni> this = the one I posted a link to before
12:53:28  <ln-> nope, go ahead
12:54:32  <ln-> talking of depots, could we think of a simple fix to enhance their realism.. making them 2x1 tiles long (or longer) instead of 1x1.
12:54:50  <Celestar> damnit, no one with the patch here?
12:55:37  <Tron> Bjarni: if you have to hijack that command, could you separate the two code paths more?
12:55:55  <Tron> if (p2) {
12:55:56  <Tron>   ...
12:56:01  <Tron>   if (DC_EXEC) ..
12:56:03  <Tron> } else {
12:56:05  <Tron>   ...
12:56:11  <Tron>   if (DC_EXEC) ...
12:56:12  <Tron> }
12:56:16  <Patrick`> oops
12:56:22  <Patrick`> I was wondering why my money was going down
12:56:29  <Tron> and the crash test should be before the p2 stuff
13:00:37  <CIA-5> bjarni * r3944 /trunk/ (lang/english.txt train_cmd.c train_gui.c vehicle.h):
13:00:37  <CIA-5> -Feature: it's now possible to turn a single unit in a train
13:00:37  <CIA-5>  control-click on a unit in a train in a depot will make the click unit turn around
13:00:37  <CIA-5>  this is useful if you want "normal" engines to act as dualheaded (one each way) or similar
13:00:37  <CIA-5>  this only works on single unit units. Multiheaded and articulated engines get a red error box
13:00:38  <CIA-5>  this is based on a quick hack peter1138 while I made it network safe and correctly handling of multible unit engines
13:00:50  <Bjarni> oops, too late :(
13:02:15  <Tron> please fix
13:13:34  <Celestar> WHOA shit
13:14:10  <Darkvater>  /c
13:14:19  <Darkvater> *busted*
13:14:21  <Darkvater> bb in 30
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13:15:36  <CIA-5> bjarni * r3945 /trunk/train_cmd.c: cleaned the layout in CmdReverseTrainDirection a bit (made a bit messy in last commit)
13:15:45  <Bjarni> 	<Darkvater>	bb in 30 <-- days?
13:15:57  <Bjarni> what did Darkvater do that gave him 30 days of jailtime?
13:16:56  <Prof_Frink> Blaspheny against cheese.
13:17:05  <Prof_Frink> s/n/m/
13:17:10  <Bjarni> and he only got 30 days???
13:17:19  <Prof_Frink> First offence.
13:17:28  <Bjarni> lol
13:17:35  <Bjarni> man you are ignorant
13:19:41  <Patrick`> how far in advance of a red signal will a train begin to slow down?
13:20:52  <CIA-5> tron * r3946 /trunk/ (rail.c rail.h rail_cmd.c rail_map.h): Add short hand names for common track combinations
13:21:05  <Bjarni> Patrick`: in the real world or in OTTD?
13:21:10  <Patrick`> ottd, sorry
13:21:30  <Bjarni> they don't detect a red signal before they are in the signal tile
13:21:32  <Patrick`> I'm thinking should I leave an extra tile inside a buffer, if the train begins to slow down before it's cleared the rear signal
13:21:45  <Patrick`> right.
13:22:20  <Patrick`> so just before it enters the tile, which is when an even-length train has cleared a signal n/2 tiles back, it's still going at top speed.
13:22:23  <Patrick`> good
13:22:25  <Bjarni> I think earlier detection of red signals is a thing for the pathfinder
13:22:59  <Bjarni> and the pbs signal rewrite
13:23:49  <Patrick`> ooh, I think I know how to do load balancing
13:23:58  <Bjarni> nice
13:24:06  <Patrick`> if there's a very low dribble of trains then fair enough, but I can restrict a line to max-capacity/2
13:24:18  <Patrick`> by just leaving a very large gap after the signal leading to the shorter path
13:24:37  <Patrick`> so if it's busy, the last train is almost certain to go down the other branch
13:25:04  <Patrick`> or I could use a jinty on an ignore-signal roundabout to act as a red/green clock
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13:46:12  <Patrick`> high-volume construction is doing my head in
13:46:16  <Matt-W> wooo my patch got in!
13:46:31  <Patrick`> like, multilane routes and stuff
13:47:06  <Celestar> weee ;)
13:47:07  <Bjarni> hmm
13:47:23  <Matt-W> I realised the other day that I had a mainline which needed to go two-track in each direction. Head exploded shortly afterwards
13:47:33  <Bjarni> is there a grf set with an aritculated engine, that runs on an unmodified OTTD?
13:47:46  <Patrick`> especially with no bloody load balancers
13:47:52  <Patrick`> getting trains back out is worse
13:47:57  <glx> Bjarni: dbset?
13:48:17  <Bjarni> I don't think it contains real articulated engines
13:48:29  <Bjarni> you have to add the tenders manually
13:48:34  <Bjarni> at least I think so
13:48:52  <glx> I think it contains a loco with 2 parts
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13:49:06  <Prof_Frink> Yes, but implemented as a dualhead
13:51:25  <Bjarni> ahh the DB set don't have articulated engines while the DB set XL do have them
13:51:36  <Bjarni> it's important to notice the difference ;)
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14:05:01  <Celestar> RFC:
14:05:40  <DaleStan> <Bjarni> is there a grf set with an aritculated engine, that runs on an unmodified OTTD? <-- I'd be surprised, but it shouldn't be hard to pull the version/switch checks from one of the current trainsets. That will have a better chance of working.
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14:19:40  <glx> Bjarni: train_cmd.c:1612: v->u.rail.flags" target="_blank">u.rail.flags ^= 1 << VRF_REVERSE_DIRECTION; --> TOGGLEBIT(v->u.rail.flags" target="_blank">u.rail.flags, VRF_REVERSE_DIRECTION);
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14:33:08  <Bjarni> glx: good point
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14:37:09  <CIA-5> bjarni * r3947 /trunk/train_cmd.c: use TOGGLEBIT() instead of manual bit toggling in CmdReverseTrainDirection (pointed out by glx)
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14:50:32  <Patrick`> in fact ...
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14:50:54  <Patrick`> I think it might be possible to selectively shunt trains based on thier characteristics (top speed, accn, etc)
14:50:58  <Patrick`> but it'd be very fiddly
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15:12:28  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3948 /branch/0.4.5/ (gfx.c macros.h smallmap_gui.c stdafx.h strings.c): - Fix: [ 1415782 ] crash in string code with openbsd/zaurus; alignment issues (thanks Tron for the help). Backport of r3529, r3553 from trunk
15:13:36  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3949 /branch/0.4.5/tree_cmd.c: - Revert r3467, was total nonesense, my fault. Backport of r3532 from trunk
15:14:35  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3950 /branch/0.4.5/stdafx.h: - Add directives to allow Visual Studio 2005 compilation. Backport of r3551 from trunk.
15:16:16  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3951 /branch/0.4.5/lang/ (11 files): - Restore plural forms of cargo types for several languages. Backport of r3560 from trunk.
15:17:59  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3952 /branch/0.4.5/ (engine.c players.c):
15:17:59  <CIA-5> - Fix: On loading a game, GetPlayerRailtypes() didn't account for the fact that
15:17:59  <CIA-5> vehicles are introduced a year after their introduction date. This will also
15:17:59  <CIA-5> relieve possible (rare) network desyncs. Backport of r3565 from trunk
15:19:32  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3953 /branch/0.4.5/strings.c: - Grr, compile before you commit. Wrong merge of 3529/3553 in r3948
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15:22:29  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3954 /branch/0.4.5/ (train_cmd.c vehicle.c):
15:22:29  <CIA-5> - Explicitly update v->first in TrainConsistChanged() if necessary, as this is far faster than brute forcing it later.
15:22:29  <CIA-5> - When loading a game, call TrainConsistChanged() for each train head separately
15:22:29  <CIA-5> before updating images, as v->first is used extensively in GetTrainImage() for
15:22:29  <CIA-5> custom graphics. This gives a significant speed improvement on loading a game.
15:22:32  <CIA-5> - Rewrite GetFreeUnitNumber() so that only one loop of vehicles is required. Instead a list of used/unused numbers is created and the first unused number is chosen. This significantly improves performance in large games.
15:22:35  <CIA-5> - Improve game-load times. Backport of r3570-3572 from trunk
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15:22:47  <Prof_Frink> Darkvater is on a comitting spree!
15:25:28  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3955 /branch/0.4.5/console_cmds.c: - Fix: validate the setting of max_companies/spectators through the console. Backport of r3591, r3593 from trunk
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15:28:30  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3956 /branch/0.4.5/ (roadveh_cmd.c station.h): - Fix: [Multistop] Check the status of the destination road stop instead of a station's first road stop. This only has effect with road vehicle queuing disabled. Backport of r3663, r3681 from trunk
15:29:26  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3957 /branch/0.4.5/road_cmd.c: -Fix: Correctly restore the roadside after roadworks are finished. Backport of r3680 from trunk
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15:30:46  <qball> openttd: network.c:1158: NetworkHandleLocalQueue: Assertion `0' failed.
15:31:36  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3958 /branch/0.4.5/ (macros.h pathfind.c rail.h rail_gui.c road_gui.c vehicle.c): Change HASBIT() to return 0/1 instead of 0/value of tested bit. Backport of r3747 from trunk
15:31:56  <Bjarni> Darkvater: what are you doing?
15:32:05  <Bjarni> making 0.4.5 mk II?
15:32:40  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3959 /branch/0.4.5/main_gui.c: -Fix: [FS#61] The tooltips for raising and lowering land buttons in the scenario editor are interchanged (Reported and fixed by lc). Backport of r3749 from trunk
15:32:41  <Bjarni> now I got 14 svn commits in my mailbox
15:32:48  <Bjarni> that will add another one
15:33:39  <Darkvater> Bjarni: preparing for
15:33:52  <Bjarni> ok
15:34:19  <Bjarni> make sure that the stuff in video/cocoa_v.m enters it too
15:34:38  <Darkvater> the rewrite?
15:34:42  <Darkvater> it worked before didn't it?
15:34:52  <Bjarni> it was horribly slow
15:35:08  <Bjarni> at least for people with G3 and some G4
15:36:14  <Celestar> Darkvater: what are we doing?
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15:37:29  <Darkvater> fix-release
15:38:26  <ln-> Bjarni: err.. there is going to be a release and very soon, too?
15:38:45  <Bjarni> ln-: that's what Darkvater just told me
15:38:53  <Bjarni> ln-: I don't know anything you don't know
15:39:03  <Bjarni> what revision was 0.4.5?
15:39:23  <ln-> i was just thinking whether including a certain patch would still be possible.
15:39:34  <Bjarni> what patch?
15:40:00  <ln-> one that fixes a certain filename-related unicode problem on OS X.
15:40:02  <Kalpa> Ha! Patch mentioned!
15:40:21  * Kalpa is a fanboy - starts drooling
15:40:26  <Celestar> Darkvater: when ?
15:40:32  <Bjarni> ln-: I asked you yesterday where you keep that patch, but then you didn't answer :(
15:40:42  <ln-> Bjarni: it's here:
15:40:50  <Celestar> Darkvater: I'll be back in 15.
15:41:34  <Darkvater> Celestar: weekend, tomorrow?
15:41:36  <ln-> Bjarni: peter1138 suggested changes to it, different function naming and avoiding using "extern", but nothing affecting the functionality.
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15:45:25  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3960 /branch/0.4.5/roadveh_cmd.c: -Fix: Correctly implement minimum search, so road vehicles head twoards the closest station, not the last one in the list. Backport of r3751 from trunk
15:45:45  <ln-> Darkvater: do you have an opinion?
15:46:04  * Bjarni tries to compile and test it
15:46:11  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3961 /branch/0.4.5/news_gui.c: - Fix crash when resizing news history window. Backport of r3778 from trunk
15:46:15  <Darkvater> ln-: not atm, busy
15:46:21  <Bjarni> the "failure to save" bug report is more than a year old now
15:47:19  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3962 /branch/0.4.5/water_cmd.c: -Fix: Mark the right tile as dirty. It's just a graphical glitch which happend in r1592. Backport of r3792 from trunk
15:48:16  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3963 /branch/0.4.5/os/debian/ (10 files in 2 dirs):
15:48:16  <CIA-5> Update debian packaging files to the ones used for releasing 0.4.5 (see os/debian/changelog for details).
15:48:16  <CIA-5> Fix a small debconf issue which was in the 0.4.5 release. Backport of r3801 from trunk
15:49:01  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3964 /branch/0.4.5/vehicle.c: -Fix: [autoreplace]: (FS#67) autoreplacing trains now keep their tile length instead of their pixel length. Backport of r3811 from trunk
15:51:06  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3965 /branch/0.4.5/ (openttd.vcproj ottdres.rc win32.c):
15:51:06  <CIA-5> - [win32] Remove mapfile generation and generate a pdb file instead. This and
15:51:06  <CIA-5> the corresponding executable is enough to trace the source of a crash given by
15:51:06  <CIA-5> crash.txt by using WinDbg for example. Mapfiles are a bit deprecated in the
15:51:06  <CIA-5> newer VS environments.
15:51:07  <CIA-5> - [win32] Show the revision in crash.txt and enable the button to show the crash text in the crash-window
15:51:11  <CIA-5> - Backport of r3871, r3872 from trunk
15:52:10  <Bjarni> ln-: it appears that Darkvater is too busy commiting, so I think I will just commit. I just tested it and read it and it appears to be fine now
15:55:25  <CIA-5> bjarni * r3966 /trunk/ (Makefile saveload.c screenshot.c unix.c):
15:55:25  <CIA-5> -Fix: [OSX and some linux] [ 1157244 ] Can't save game if name contains german umlauts
15:55:25  <CIA-5>  now it saves correctly, but the load window still display some chars wrong (fix by ln-)
15:55:38  <Bjarni> Darkvater: we need this one too in a bug fix release
15:55:58  <Bjarni> shit, this bug was reported in 0.3.4 o_O
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15:56:38  <ln-> there's one issue with the save/load dialog.. which is not caused by the patch, more likely to be encountered when the patch is in use. go to the save dialog and click on a filename that contains unicode characters.
15:56:47  <Tron> whitespace after keywords
15:57:02  <Darkvater> ok, you couldn't find an UGLIER way to fix this?
15:57:19  <ln-> who?
15:57:20  <Tron> and DON'T put function declarations in .c files
15:58:02  <Bjarni> so typical. You can post a diff in this channel several times and nobody says anything, but people do when it's committed
15:58:09  <ln-> indeed.
15:58:53  <ln-> what the hell is wrong with you people? for MONTHS i have tried to get some comments about the patch, and when finally Bjarni commits it, only 10 seconds after that you begin to have opinions!
15:59:18  <Bjarni> the reason why this bug haven't been fixed before is that the last time we had a fix for it, it was rejected for being ugly or something like that
15:59:27  <Noldo> you should just commit to get comment
15:59:56  <Bjarni> now we got a working fix again and I'm not going to wait another year to get another one that's less ugly or whatever
16:00:07  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3967 /branch/0.4.5/ (rail_cmd.c tunnelbridge_cmd.c): - Fix: Properly set back the owner of a crossing/road-under bridge after removing it. For crossings we can always use .m2 because it is already 0 when not owned by a town. Backport of r3876, r3893 from trunk
16:00:08  <ln-> 17:57 < Darkvater> ok, you couldn't find an UGLIER way to fix this? <-- what do you mean by this?
16:00:26  <Celestar> back
16:00:43  <Tron> i'm pretty sure i have already mentioned this
16:01:15  <Tron> if not specifically to this diff, it did it literally dozens of times to occasions
16:01:23  <Tron> +other
16:01:35  <Celestar> what's the discussion?
16:01:46  <Bjarni> rev 3966
16:01:51  <Bjarni> people claim that it's ugly
16:02:04  <Bjarni> but not until AFTER it was committed
16:02:20  <Tron> at least it could adhere the common style.
16:02:22  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3968 /branch/0.4.5/lang/ (finnish.txt german.txt): - Update german and finnish languages. Backport of r3932, r3943 from trunk
16:02:35  <Bjarni> also it fixes a bug reported in 0.3.4, but the previous fix was rejected for ugliness as well
16:02:49  <Bjarni> I think that's a long time to wait for a "failure to save" bug fix
16:03:10  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3969 /branch/0.4.5/network_gui.c: - [ 1439907 ] Increase client list window width so at least most languages fit (wikipedian). Backport of r3933 from trunk
16:03:22  <Celestar> Tron: are extern declarations faulty?
16:03:36  <Tron> they are error prone
16:03:55  <Celestar> I what way?
16:03:57  <Celestar> in*
16:03:59  <CIA-5> Darkvater * r3970 /branch/0.4.5/ (data/openttd.grf gfx.c gfxinit.c): - FS#56 - [Crash] Missing glyph(s) in big-font. Added several missing glyphs for the big font. Backport of r3940 from trunk
16:04:02  <Darkvater> and done..finally
16:04:03  <Tron> error prone in the sense of "it crashes and the compiler didn't even give you a warning"
16:04:04  <Patrick`> has anyone built a numtrains calculator?
16:04:08  <Tron> Celestar: simple example:
16:04:10  <Tron> foo.c:
16:04:11  <Celestar> go ahead
16:04:20  <ln-> some people here should try to understand the fact that there will NEVER EVER be a non-ugly patch for this problem, unless someone codes one, and that's not likely to happen.
16:04:25  <Patrick`> you put in the xy coordinates of your target, your start, your production per month, and the top speed of your trains
16:04:30  <Tron> void f(foobar*) { ... }
16:04:31  <Patrick`> and it tells you how many you need
16:04:33  <Tron> bar.c:
16:04:40  <Tron> void f(int);
16:04:48  <Patrick`> it's a fine line between 25% cargo collection and having a queue of 10
16:04:57  <Tron> (the extern is redundant for function declarations)
16:05:08  <Tron> you don't get a warning or anything
16:05:24  <Celestar> you don't?
16:05:26  <Darkvater> ln-: for a fact you could've at least put the convert_to_fs_charset in one place instead of in two
16:05:35  * Celestar is gone.
16:05:38  <Tron> Celestar: of course not, there is NO way for the compiler to know
16:05:47  <Tron> because you compile 2 totally separate files
16:05:53  * Celestar needs a decision on the extended slot allocation theme.
16:06:01  <ln-> Darkvater: do you mean the declaration or the actual funtion call?
16:06:03  <Darkvater> ln-: or use a commonly named fopen instead of this bogus filename. But I've said this quite a few times to bjarni when the patch was brought up
16:06:13  * Celestar takes a mental note not to use (extern) declarations in .c files.
16:06:15  <Celestar> out
16:06:26  <Tron> Celestar: same goes for variables as well
16:06:36  <ln-> Darkvater: "a commonly named fopen"?
16:06:43  <Tron> Celestar: you can even have a variable name which is a function in another file, that's fun...
16:06:57  <Tron> ln-: a wrapper
16:07:40  <Darkvater> bb in a while... fucking tax-return papers :(
16:07:42  <ln-> Tron: i don't see the fundamental advantage of a wrapper.
16:08:03  <Tron> not having to sprinkle the same code over and over again in the source
16:09:37  <Tron> Bjarni: you just broke compiliation on all system which don't have iconv, btw
16:10:28  <Tron> even more
16:10:56  *** xyzzy1 [n=xyzzy1@tor/session/x-00938e465302b8da] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:11:25  <Tron> you broke compilation on ALL non-OSX *nixen
16:11:27  <Tron> goodjob
16:11:33  <CIA-5> bjarni * r3971 /trunk/video/cocoa_v.m: reverted r3742 as those new errors were not the right way to handle those exceptions
16:12:20  <Bjarni> ...
16:12:25  <Bjarni> :(
16:14:04  <ln-> Tron: bullshit. it still compiles fine on my linux.
16:14:34  <Tron> %gmake
16:14:34  <Tron> ===> Linking openttd
16:14:34  <Tron> unix.o(.text+0xe42): In function `convert_to_fs_charset':
16:14:34  <Tron> /usr/home/tron/projekte/ottd/clean/unix.c:652: undefined reference to `libiconv_open'
16:14:34  <Tron> unix.o(.text+0xe6e):/usr/home/tron/projekte/ottd/clean/unix.c:657: undefined reference to `libiconv'
16:14:35  <Tron> unix.o(.text+0xe8c):/usr/home/tron/projekte/ottd/clean/unix.c:658: undefined reference to `libiconv'
16:14:37  <Tron> gmake: *** [openttd] Fehler 1
16:14:39  <Tron> ln-: bullshit to you
16:14:56  <Tron> glibc maybe includes libiconv
16:15:08  <Tron> but that's not standard
16:15:20  <Tron> you even can't be sure a particular linux uses glibc
16:15:31  <ln-> you can't be sure of anything.
16:15:57  <Bjarni> this is why feedback is needed BEFORE commits and not after
16:16:15  <Tron> i didn't even have to compile to see that
16:16:25  <Tron> you unconditionally include iconv.h
16:16:34  <Tron> but conditionally link with iconv
16:16:38  <ln-> Bjarni: perhaps it's better to revert the patch and NEVER fix this issue, nor even talk about it.
16:17:00  <Tron> i have absolutly nothing against fixing a problem
16:17:05  <ln-> Tron: why didn't you fucking say anything then, when you were asked for feedback during the past weeks?
16:17:09  <Tron> but don't break everything else by doing so
16:17:49  <Tron> ln-: i most certainly said that the diff is unsuitable
16:17:58  <ln-> you didn't.
16:18:12  <Bjarni> I never saw such a statement
16:20:06  <Bjarni> Tron: so you say that it should be changed to be conditional to __APPLE__ only and then screw all utf-8 based linux filesystems?
16:20:19  <Tron> it should at least compile
16:20:25  <Tron> or rather link
16:20:39  <glx> in makefile:
16:20:39  <glx> ifdef OSX
16:20:39  <glx> LIBS += -liconv
16:20:39  <glx> endif
16:20:39  <glx> in saveload.c:
16:20:40  <glx> #ifdef UNIX
16:20:42  <glx> extern const char *convert_to_fs_charset(const char *filename);
16:20:44  <glx> #else
16:20:57  <ln-> which is a matter of adding "-liconv" somewhere, which you could have done already, if you weren't focused on blaming people on the channel.
16:22:15  <Bjarni> so far I have upset somebody 100% of the times I have done anything to filenames, so if I do something now, odds are that I will do it again :(
16:22:22  <Tron> the only thing i'm blaming somebody for is commiting a faulty patch which breaks compilation on several platforms
16:22:58  <Tron> and it's pure coincidence i have libiconv on my system
16:23:01  <Bjarni> Tron: this is the reason why we need constructive feedback on patches, but that never really works in here
16:23:24  <Tron> if i hadn't it wouldn't die while linking, it would already die while trying to compile unix.c
16:24:05  <Tron> Bjarni: even the style of the diff was very faulty, so discussing the function was way out of question
16:24:38  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
16:24:50  <ln-> Tron: sorry, some of us are not as smart as you are.
16:24:51  <Tron> Mär 10 21:02:06 <ln-> #ifNOTdef WIN32. i meant commenting out iconv-related code in case it's never needed in windows.
16:24:51  <Tron> Mär 10 21:02:31 <Tron> !OSX != WIN32
16:24:57  <Bjarni> Tron: you appear to know a lot more about this than I do, so maybe it's better if you fix it
16:25:11  <Tron> here, definatly made a comment about the compiling/linking conditionals
16:25:15  <Bjarni> I never claimed to be good at this, but I tried and ln- tried and nobody else did anything to this bug
16:26:02  <Bjarni> and Tron: you would have fixed it long ago if you had an utf-8 filesystem. Failure to save if the name contains Märch is not a good thing
16:26:12  <ln-> it seems that much more effort is paid to finding guilty people than actually enhancing the code.
16:26:19  <Bjarni> yeah
16:26:47  <Bjarni> it would likely work by now if somebody with the skills had fixed this instead of IRCing to find the guilty person(s)
16:26:49  <Tron> you're right, you should stop trying to move the guilt elsewhere and fix the problems
16:27:05  <Bjarni> I don't know how to do tha
16:27:06  <Bjarni> t
16:27:27  <Tron> at least put all parts of the change withing the same conditional statement
16:27:47  <Tron> not some of it in ifdef OSX and another part in nothing at all
16:28:09  <Bjarni> ok, I can screw utf-8 linux. Let's see what people say to that
16:28:14  <Tron> i thought that's evident
16:29:11  <Tron> Bjarni: would you please explain to me what you're trying to achieve with that statement?
16:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> hey, could you people calm down please?
16:30:18  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: no
16:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> how about a suggestion: introduce a new condition: UTF8_FILESYSTEM in the makefile
16:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> and make this patch depend on this condition
16:32:01  <Tron> the problem is trunk is broken for me - and probably everyone else !OSX && !glibc - and you did that commit. and all you say is "i can screw utf-8 linux". a "problem" we don't even have a report about! but that compilation is broken on several system is a _fact_
16:32:21  <qball> grrrmbl why is advanced station loading off on the official ttd problem.
16:32:40  <qball> server
16:32:43  <ln-> Tron: now that you've found bjarni and myself to be guilty of this crime, can we move on?
16:33:09  <Tron> ln-: "we move on" in the sense of "you fix it", sure, of course
16:33:22  <Tron> i'd be _very_ glad
16:34:04  <ln-> i won't bother fixing anything, because it takes ~4 months before my fix is accepted for commit.
16:34:35  <ln-> besides, i'd do it the wrong way anyway, because i don't have your wisdom.
16:34:43  <Bjarni> a "problem" we don't even have a report about! <-- I thought we got the report on it from ln-'s linux
16:35:13  <Tron> ok, if you won't fix the compilation, then bjarni, please back it out
16:36:01  <ln-> yes, saving non-utf-8 screenshot filename in the dir makes you unable to use "svn up" before you remove or rename the file. that's the problem description.
16:36:17  <Tron> oh, and never assert() the return value of malloc. i'm pretty sure we had this discussion several times
16:36:53  <Noldo> Tron: do you have a list of these somewhere?
16:36:54  <Kalpa> "UTF-8 - global source for pain and agony."
16:37:16  <Tron> Noldo: a list of what?
16:37:28  <CIA-5> bjarni * r3972 /trunk/ (saveload.c screenshot.c unix.c): changed r3966 to only affect OSX. Too bad linuxes with utf-8 filesystems now got the saving problem again, but now we can compile on all platforms again
16:37:28  <ln-> Tron: what are you talking about? my patch doesn't use either assert() nor malloc().
16:37:31  <Bjarni> that should do it
16:37:33  <Bjarni> I think
16:37:55  <Tron> ln-: that was to bjarni
16:38:38  <Noldo> Tron: list of those No-No's you tell people about
16:39:06  <Bjarni> <Tron>	oh, and never assert() the return value of malloc. i'm pretty sure we had this discussion several times <-- I reverted a commit I once made to fix this, but it included other issues
16:39:20  <Tron> Noldo: mostly it's common sense. assert() is for catching logic bugs, nothing else. malloc() returning NULL just means the OS couldn't fullfill your request, that's not a logic bug
16:40:13  <ln-> Tron: it's either "fulfil" or "fullfil", not "fullfill".
16:41:03  <Tron> (it could be a logic bug, like a too large malloc request, but that's not the common case. something before should have caught that)
16:41:11  <Bjarni> hence the reason why I wanted to replace it with an error, but then bad stuff could happen if the new error messages were triggered the way they were written
16:41:22  <Bjarni> so a 3rd solution needs to be made
16:41:55  <Tron> ln-: instead of playing mr. know-it-all you could properly fix your diff, that would be by far more productive
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16:43:55  <Bjarni> Darkvater: all changes to video/cocoa_v.m are fixes for it being way too slow (and a single fix for x86 that didn't like the speedup for some weird reason I have yet to figure out)
16:44:31  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:44:49  <ln-> Tron: you're telling me what's productive? ...
16:46:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> guys... get a room!
16:46:54  <Bjarni> no way
16:47:11  <Bjarni> I don't plan to be in a room with ln- and Tron
16:47:15  <Bjarni> and nobody else
16:47:46  <DJFire> lol
16:48:07  <ln-> so the svn version was in uncompilable state for 42 minutes. how can we ever survive from this trauma?
16:48:22  <DJFire> LOL
16:48:38  <Bjarni> I guess it was payback time for when Tron broke compilation on OSX
16:48:50  <Bjarni> or rather, it compiled but crashed during startup
16:48:53  <DJFire> im gonna go work on now **runs away from the madness
16:49:50  <Tron> Bjarni: don't tell me i hestitated to fix it
16:50:05  <Tron> though i don't remember what you mean right now
16:50:28  <Bjarni> <Tron>	Bjarni: don't tell me i hestitated to fix it <-- you did nothing... you had left
16:51:19  <ln-> most of the 42 minutes were used to glorify Tron's superiority, and Bjarni's and my stupidity. the problem itself took ... probably not more than 5 mins to fix after Tron had bothered to tell what to do.
16:51:29  <Bjarni> it was in unix.c. it said "ifdef __APPLE__ #include <sdl.h>..., then somebody changed it to #ifdef WITH_SDL and then you removed it
16:51:52  <Bjarni> the removing part meant that SDL could not open a window to draw in on the OSX port
16:52:33  <Tron> ln-: don't try to put the blame on me
16:52:45  <Bjarni> ok, that's it
16:52:58  <Bjarni> we need rules on how to handle diffs and talk to each other
16:53:04  <Bjarni> just like we got rules on coding style
16:53:10  <Tron> Bjarni: i certainly didn't argue that it's better to keep version broken, did i?
16:53:35  <Tron> which somebody should start to at least remotly adhere to
16:53:40  <Bjarni> Tron: I never claimed that it's better to keep it broken. I said that I didn't know how to fix it
16:53:45  <Bjarni> there is a great difference there
16:54:06  <ln-> Tron: i try to blame your attitude, and for a good reason.
16:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> i did offer a way to fix it, didn't i?
16:54:42  <Tron> ln-: you're blaming me for not doing to your bidding, that's all
16:54:48  <Tron> and i _never_ will, btw
16:55:01  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, but that is a compile time solution, not a runtime solution like ln- wrote
16:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> we were discussing a compile-error?!?
16:55:53  <Tron> yes, a compile time error
16:56:01  <Tron> but even that seems to be in doubt
16:56:18  <Bjarni> the issue is a commit that fixes a bug reported in 0.3.4 where computers with utf-8 filesystems failed to save if the name contained certain letters
16:56:23  <Tron> maybe linking on FreeBSD isn't counted twoards compiling
16:56:38  <Tron> the issue is a commit breaking compilation
16:57:01  <Tron> i wouldn't care if it would bring world peace as long as it is broken for me
16:57:09  <Bjarni> yeah, and nobody said anything about that for the past week when it was posted in this channel serveral times
16:58:15  <Tron> it had so fundamental flaws i'm really tired of mentioning again and again
16:58:41  <Tron> and i posted a part of the logs where i clearly said there's a problem
16:59:30  <Tron> you asked for a comment, you got your comment, you ignored it
17:02:16  <ln-> I think this discussion could be a good startpoint for either 1) everyone hating each other even more than before,  2) enhancing the procedures for reviewing patches, commenting on them, and accepting them.
17:02:44  <Bjarni> ln-: I already stated that I will go for #2
17:02:48  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
17:03:00  <Bjarni> but I can't command everybody to do that
17:03:40  <Tron> ln-: it's your turn to choose either one and start with it
17:03:53  <Tron> i'm taking a shower now
17:04:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> i really believe you are talking at cross-purposes [that's what leo gives me for 'aneindander vorbeireden']
17:04:51  <valhallazzzw> aka not listening to eachother :p
17:05:27  <Tron> Eddi|zuHause2: i don't think so, it's rather at the "i am holier than you"-level
17:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> that was the 2nd step, yes ;)
17:07:00  *** KouDy [i=KouDy@] has joined #openttd
17:07:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> because 'aneinander vorbeireden' (which is worse than just not listening to each other) inevitably (sp?) leads to misunderstandings
17:08:14  *** KouDy [i=KouDy@] has quit [Client Quit]
17:11:03  <ln-> what i don't really understand is the selfish attitude of not fixing the uncompilable svn version if one very well knows how it could be fixed. "you broke it, you fix it" is fine for some situations, but not all.
17:11:55  *** ^Cartman^ [] has joined #openttd
17:13:22  <ln-> would you go to a doctor who said "you fell from the tree and broke your leg, you fix it yourself"
17:13:38  <Bjarni> "you ran that guy over. You go operate on his leg so he can walk again" <-- this one appears like a joke, but somehow it's similar
17:14:36  <ln-> i don't see how e.g. Tron benefits from the situation that the svn version is broken, he knows how to fix it, but doesn't fix it.
17:15:20  <ln-> on the other hand, I do see how everyone would benefit if Tron used his skills and 3 mins of his time to do the fix.
17:15:33  <ln-> even if it wasn't his fault at all.
17:16:58  <ln-> is this project about devs competing against each other, or about aiming for the common good?
17:17:50  <Patrick`> AGH
17:17:56  <Patrick`> multiline is so retarded
17:18:14  <Patrick`> it feels like I'm back in ttd trying to fix the problem that pre/exit signals fixed
17:18:19  <Patrick`> but without the luxury of hacking
17:18:35  *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|voer
17:18:56  <Patrick`> I wish I could do things like "only go into this signal if you won't block someone else
17:20:55  <Patrick`> someone tell ln- to stop being a dick
17:21:20  <Patrick`> he says "the common good" and he means "someone did something that didn't benefit me instead of something that did
17:21:35  *** Skiddles^ [] has quit ["Sleepzors!"]
17:22:59  <Patrick`> time to bite the bullet and do routing
17:25:30  *** Coder`TuX [n=codertux@] has quit ["Windows, the best game ever: Try to see how many blue screens you can get per hour and then try to beat that record!"]
17:25:43  <Bjarni> <-- I did it
17:25:48  <Bjarni> it's a bit buggy though
17:25:58  <Bjarni> specially regarding wagon overwrite
17:26:44  *** Maedhros [n=jc@gentoo/developer/Maedhros] has joined #openttd
17:27:47  <Tron> ln-: great attitude, let somebody else fix the errors i make, really really great attitude. can you possibly imagine one can get tired of fixing problems others created? no, you obviously can't otherwise you wouldn't have said what you did say
17:28:28  *** angerman_ [] has joined #openttd
17:29:14  <Tron> ln-: and stop writing "the common good" when you really me "my self-interest"
17:29:28  <Tron> s/me/mean/
17:29:38  <ln-> Tron: you didn't get my point. and if you are tired, you should go to sleep and/or retire from your position as a developer.
17:29:56  <Tron> you failed at being funny
17:31:15  *** Xeryus|voer is now known as XeryusTC
17:31:29  <ln-> Tron: are you being an OTTD developer for fun, or are you getting paid? if you no more consider it fun, isn't it time to quit and do something else that makes you happy?
17:31:50  <Tron> you get it EXACTLY the wrong way round
17:32:00  <Noldo> ln-: you think it's ok to smoke people out by making code they don't like?
17:32:05  <Tron> if you would pay me, i would fix it
17:32:10  <Tron> i'm doing it for fun
17:32:19  <Tron> and fixing problems other people create is _not_ fun
17:32:48  <ln-> Tron: so it's YOUR project, and no one else should contribute to it? fine.
17:32:52  <Tron> ln-: it may come as a shock to you, but the other 6 billion people are not here to entertain/serve/whatever you
17:33:07  <qball> For Openttd:
17:33:21  * qball plays: Fauré - Requiem
17:33:32  <Tron> ok, that's it, i really have enough now, stop this argument _now_
17:33:39  <ln-> Noldo: err.. invalid argument.
17:34:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> i really believe tron is right...
17:35:38  <Tron> stop this argument _now_
17:35:51  <Patrick`> how smart is waypoint handling?
17:36:17  <Patrick`> say a train is going towards the waypoint but it stops at the next stop after the waypoint, will it carry on properly?
17:36:43  <Tron> there's nothing smart about it
17:36:43  <ln-> i'm not saying people should deliberately commit bad patches and expect Tron to fix them, but if that should happen despite precautions, who benefits for no one fixing them?
17:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> no? why would it?
17:36:50  *** mode/#openttd [+o Tron] by ChanServ
17:36:57  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*i=lauri@*.fi] by Tron
17:37:00  *** ln- was kicked from #openttd by Tron [Tron]
17:37:03  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause2: because the only purpose of a waypoint is to route trains to the right place
17:37:16  <Tron> he can't say i didn't warn him
17:37:25  <Patrick`> basically, I've done load balancing on the entrances of a LARGE station
17:37:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> a waypoint counts the same as a station (order wise)
17:37:29  <qball> Tron: in my opinion you are right to kick him.
17:37:34  <qball> if _you_ care
17:37:40  <Patrick`> if a train goes down the wrong branch it's not the end of the world, because it still got to where it was going
17:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> so: train reaches station not on order list -> stop, but carry on with order
17:38:04  <Tron> no, i don't, but if you care to not get kicked either, i suggest you burry this topic, too
17:38:09  <Patrick`> so it'll exit the station and still try to get to the entrance waypoint
17:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> train goes to waypoint on order list -> not stop, next order
17:38:16  <qball> :D
17:38:16  <Patrick`> which means trying to turn around
17:38:24  <Patrick`> hmm
17:38:32  <Patrick`> and no way to link non-adjacent waypoints
17:38:44  <Patrick`> (so I can do, waypoint for entrance 1 is passed if you go in entrance 2)
17:38:58  <Tron> yes, the waypoint implementation is a bit ... suboptimal
17:40:08  *** angerman [] has quit [Connection timed out]
17:40:10  <Patrick`> hah
17:40:13  <Patrick`> you are wrong
17:40:15  <Tron> if you want multi-track waypoints use a station, switch on ttdp non-stop handling and send a train non-stop there
17:40:16  <Patrick`> I just did an experiment
17:40:24  <Tron> not very optimal, but oh well...
17:40:40  <Patrick`> guy's pootling towards waypoint 1, so I shove him into waypoint 2 with a quick demolish
17:40:48  <Patrick`> the "next order" pointer still incremented
17:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> i am not sure why you need waypoints for load balancing a station anyway
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17:42:20  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause2: because the pathfinder is too efficient
17:42:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> ?
17:42:48  <Patrick`> I have 2 tracks leading towards a station in paralell
17:42:51  <Patrick`> to "share the load"
17:43:00  <Patrick`> but the pathfinder was mashing them all into one track and it went too slowly
17:43:28  <Patrick`> so I've rearranged it but there's a small probability that a train will go through the wrong waypoint at the station entrance
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17:45:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> i still believe a rather small tweak to the pathfinder would do the job
17:45:37  *** mode/#openttd [-o Tron] by Tron
17:45:37  <Patrick`> yes, that's useful
17:45:40  <Patrick`> since I don't know C
17:45:51  <Patrick`> so within the constraints of "playing the game" this is the best I can do
17:46:19  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause2: what kind of tweak did you have in mind?
17:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> the pathfinder works on graphs, right?
17:47:24  <Noldo> I supose so
17:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you have to adjust the weights of the edges properly
17:47:31  <Patrick`> it's just frustrating because I'll have these two lines that are load balanced but some trains on one of them need to be on the other
17:47:38  <Patrick`> so I connect a little shunt for those trains
17:47:48  <Patrick`> and they ALL pile down it because the left hand branch is 0.1 faster
17:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> so that the "shortest" path found by the pathfinder is actually the "fastest"
17:47:54  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause2: what did yoy have in mind
17:48:04  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause2: to adjust for the density of traffic on the line?
17:48:05  <Patrick`> cunning
17:48:19  <Patrick`> weight a tile differently if it's occupied, inversely proportional to the speed of the vehicle
17:48:22  <Noldo> Patrick`: how about just the number of trains on it
17:48:29  <Patrick`> or some sort of tile business factor
17:48:33  <Patrick`> *busy-ness
17:48:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> the number of red signals would probably do it
17:48:52  <Patrick`> anyway, all this pie in the sky doesn't solve the current problem
17:48:56  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause2: true
17:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i do not have much insight in what the pathfinder does currently
17:49:26  <Patrick`> I wonder how hard-core designs do it
17:49:34  <Patrick`> probably have a different route for each map segment
17:50:46  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause2: problem with number of red signals is that trains prefere routes with fewer signals, even if they are just as busy
17:51:41  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause2: and the pathfinder finds the cheapest path, which is based on the shortest path
17:52:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> well... for the given problem of load balancing 2 tracks, it is pretty common that both have around the same number of signals, just slightly different lengths
17:52:11  <Noldo> blathijs: how about red signals / all signals?
17:52:44  <Patrick`> sooo .. how do I actually delete waypoints?
17:52:59  <hylje> demolish? :>
17:53:12  <glx> reconvert to waypoint
17:53:15  <Patrick`> they're not going away
17:53:36  <Patrick`> now they are
17:53:43  <Patrick`> and every train in the game has an invalid order
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17:59:15  <blathijs> Noldo: could work, I guess
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17:59:40  <blathijs> though you would need to assign a weight to all tiles on the run, not just at the end
17:59:49  <blathijs> (so you don't have to try every possible route
18:00:16  <blathijs> you could remember the state of the last signal and give every tile after a red tile a penalty until a green tile was encountered
18:00:19  <blathijs> might work
18:00:31  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause2: care to work on that?
18:01:07  *** Qrrbrbirlbel [] has joined #openttd
18:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> that would require me to work into the ottdcode first... i can't see me doing that in the next couple of weeks
18:01:25  <Qrrbrbirlbel> g
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18:02:15  *** tokai [] has quit [Connection timed out]
18:02:31  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause2: I think it would be an easy start, since the NPF code is rather well designed and documented
18:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but i got more important things to take care of myself first...
18:04:41  <Noldo> blathijs: that would end up giving penaly for tiles inside a reserved block
18:05:02  <Noldo> which sounds right
18:05:25  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause2: :-)
18:05:33  <blathijs> Noldo: yes, it does, doesn't it?
18:05:34  <blathijs> :-)
18:07:08  <Patrick`> Tron: ta
18:07:17  <Tron> hm?
18:07:45  <Patrick`> for ln-
18:07:55  <Patrick`> t'was awesome
18:08:24  *** mode/#openttd [+o Tron] by ChanServ
18:08:25  *** Patrick` was kicked from #openttd by Tron [Tron]
18:08:35  *** mode/#openttd [-o Tron] by Tron
18:09:04  *** Patrick` [] has joined #openttd
18:09:05  <Patrick`> ow.
18:09:32  <Patrick`> I realise it would have happened without my expert counsel, but it was still great
18:10:02  <Tron> you're really asking for it
18:10:39  <Tron> one more word about it and it's a ban
18:10:53  <Patrick`> gotcha
18:11:23  *** XeryusTC is now known as XeryusW3
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18:14:15  <Patrick`> GNNNNN
18:14:41  <Patrick`> fuck this, I gotta go
18:14:56  <Patrick`> I can't not aggravate Tron, all I want to do is shake his hand and buy him a beer but NO
18:14:59  *** Patrick` [] has left #openttd ["This channel has been garbage collected"]
18:18:21  <Darkvater> I see you guys had fun while I was away :)
18:19:05  <Tron> no, not really
18:19:57  <Darkvater> goddamn, laaaag
18:20:00  <Bjarni> Darkvater: actually this sucks
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18:20:26  *** mode/#openttd [+o DarkSSH] by ChanServ
18:20:35  <Darkvater> solong suckers
18:20:35  <DarkSSH> there, that's better
18:20:39  <Darkvater> exiiti
18:20:42  <DarkSSH> sjuez
18:20:45  *** Darkvater was kicked from #openttd by DarkSSH [DarkSSH]
18:21:07  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: what sucks?
18:21:27  <DarkSSH> <-- what's this? train going backwards or pushing the crates?
18:21:35  <DarkSSH> not really clear, too small :OP
18:21:44  *** DarkSSH is now known as Darkvater
18:21:47  <Bjarni> it's driving in reverse
18:22:00  <Darkvater> they do that in real life? :)
18:22:06  <Bjarni> yeah
18:22:16  <Darkvater> looks weird
18:22:25  <Bjarni>
18:22:42  <hylje> the train appears to not run reverse
18:22:51  <hylje> the smokes wouldnt make any sense if it did
18:22:52  <Bjarni> well, it was more like a spinoff from the solution to another problem
18:23:45  *** Qrrbrbirlbel [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:23:49  <Darkvater> Bjarni: PM
18:24:06  <Darkvater> is that reverse?
18:24:12  <Bjarni> yeah
18:24:24  <Bjarni> it is the solution if you fail to find a working turntable
18:24:26  <Darkvater> doesn't look it :p
18:25:08  <Bjarni> they didn't post a pic of that engine actually driving and I don't feel like moving my own pic of it into the computer
18:28:29  *** iridium is now known as iridium`nh
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18:32:48  <MiHaMiX> is there any patch which draws the borders of the towns therefore showing the lands which has no owner at all? :)
18:33:31  <Bjarni> somebody talked about making one ages ago
18:33:39  <Bjarni> I don't think it ever worked
18:33:48  <MiHaMiX> would be encouraged from me :)
18:34:08  <Bjarni> I don't think so
18:34:20  <Bjarni> I'm not even sure you were here at that time
18:34:25  <Bjarni> as I said: it was ages ago
18:35:23  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: i'm here for ages :)
18:35:52  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has quit ["Leaving"]
18:36:35  <Bjarni> then it could have been before drawn of time
18:36:41  <MiHaMiX> lol :D
18:37:00  <Bjarni> seriously, I think it was around 0.2.0 or even before that
18:37:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> that does not sound too hard to do...
18:37:24  <MiHaMiX> Eddi|zuHause2: than pretty please, do it :)
18:37:25  <FauxFaux> I decided that I'm too lazy to fix the bug with dragging in the train depot, are we still using flyspray for bug tracking?
18:37:38  <MiHaMiX> FauxFaux: ys
18:37:40  <MiHaMiX> FauxFaux: yes
18:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> just a loop through each tile, checking if the adjacent tiles have different authority, and if so, draw a sprite (like a fence or something)
18:38:23  <MiHaMiX> Eddi|zuHause2: through _each_? that would be rather CPU killer
18:38:25  <FauxFaux> Thanks MiHaMiX.
18:38:39  <MiHaMiX> Eddi|zuHause2: it would be enough to cover the viewports, imo.
18:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> as i said before, i am not going to work into the code at this time... so no further refinement here...
18:39:09  <hylje> just tint owned tiles by some color, making sure no different owners have same color next to each other
18:39:17  <hylje> and make it toggleable
18:39:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> well... what "each" is is part of the refinement ;)
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18:40:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> "each" being "each visible tile" sounds right ;)
18:41:19  <Bjarni> <-- the diff used to make
18:41:30  <Bjarni> just in case somebody wants to try it
18:41:58  <Bjarni> I know it can do odd stuff to wagon overwrite, but apart from that it should work just fine
18:43:20  *** XeryusW3 is now known as XeryusTC
18:44:07  <hylje>
18:44:36  <MiHaMiX> hylje: ai? :D
18:44:42  <Bjarni> hylje: I can build better track layouts than you can :p
18:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> why do you call it .jpg when it's actually a .bmp?
18:46:38  <Bjarni> I still regret not making a screenshot, when the AI made a bridge of like 20-25 tiles, turned around to get back, turned again and made a new bridge, and yet another bridge. In the end there was 4 wooden bridges of a total of like 80-100 tiles and then the AI figured out that it didn't need to cross the water
18:47:29  <Prof_Frink> Aaah, good ol' ILBB syndrome
18:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> sounds perfectly fine considering the way the AI builds tracks ;)
18:47:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> ILBB?
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18:48:05  <Prof_Frink> I Love Buildin' Bridges
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18:49:32  <hylje> MiHaMiX: its AI, yes :)
18:49:33  *** DjViper- is now known as DjViper
18:49:45  <Bjarni> did anybody download my diff to try it?
18:49:50  <hylje> Eddi|zuHause2: dunno, mspaint was gay
18:50:05  <Bjarni> or did I waste my bandwidth when uploading it?
18:50:32  <Bjarni> <hylje>	Eddi|zuHause2: dunno, mspaint was gay <-- of cause. It had to fit the OS
18:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> i look at it... but i am not trying it right now...
18:50:33  <qball> Bjarni: what did it o?
18:50:54  <hylje> dont worry, ill likely be switching this comp to gentoo soon
18:51:04  <Bjarni> qball: it makes it possible to turn articulated engines around so they drive in reverse
18:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> gonna watch a movie now...
18:51:17  <qball> Bjarni: that's kinda cool.
18:51:23  * Prof_Frink hands hylje an ubuntu cd
18:51:33  <Bjarni> normal engines can already do that after I made a commit earlier today
18:51:43  <hylje> Prof_Frink: thanks but no thanks :P
18:51:55  <hylje> i have more than enough blank cds anyway
18:51:58  * Bjarni hand hylje a gentoo CD
18:52:31  <hylje> i have a leftover 2006.1 installer from a server :P
18:52:52  <hylje> that meaning, i installed gentoo on that server box last week
18:53:01  * Bjarni hands hylje a yellow (dog?) CD
18:53:18  <Bjarni> all of a sudden you will prefer gentoo :p
18:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> 'leftover' as in 'didn't use up all'?
18:53:32  * qball uses ubunti on ppc
18:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> :p
18:53:41  <hylje> cds rarely get consumed when used
18:53:48  <hylje> so its leftover from that install
18:54:02  * Prof_Frink hands hylje a cd-ro
18:54:20  <Bjarni> o_O
18:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> well... i once had a CD that got eaten by the drive
18:54:29  <Bjarni> a ro-ro CD drive?
18:54:47  <Prof_Frink> cd-read once
18:55:25  * Bjarni hand Prof_Frink the idea of worm
18:55:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> dynamic RAM is actually a Read-Once device ;)
18:56:12  <hylje> Eddi|zuHause2: do you wonder why i put the "rarely" in there? ;)
18:56:19  <Bjarni> they tricked it to be assigned to the same value time after time though
18:56:26  <Bjarni> bbl
19:00:06  *** glx is now known as glx|away
19:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> funnily, that was a windows-cd ;)
19:01:36  * FauxFaux gets outsmarted by flyspray.
19:01:41  <FauxFaux> Okay, listen up.
19:01:44  <FauxFaux> There's a bug!
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19:53:32  * Matt-W tries to figure out how the error popups for trying to place signals on something that's not railway work, and boggles
20:00:46  *** Patrick` [] has joined #openttd
20:00:50  <Patrick`> bug in the pathfinder
20:02:28  <Patrick`> I have trains trying to route via a pre/post block to somewhere else
20:02:31  <Patrick`> because I broke it
20:02:43  <Patrick`> and they ignore the signal states and attempt to enter a red exit signal
20:03:19  <Noldo> Patrick`: savegame might help
20:04:13  * Eddi|zuHause2 does not understand what Patrick` is trying to tell
20:04:20  <Patrick`> ok, ok
20:04:47  <Patrick`> there's a north line and a south line and because of a temporary cockup during constructions, there are trains that want to turn round
20:05:07  <Patrick`> and the shortest path to do this is to enter a non-roro station and exit it again immediately
20:05:28  <Patrick`> BUT: when they enter the station, they are bouncing off a red exit signal
20:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> and what should they do instead?
20:08:08  <Patrick`> honour the red presignal
20:08:13  <Patrick`> er
20:08:24  <Patrick`> not even that, the presignal is green but they go through it then pick the wrong path
20:08:28  *** stavrosg [] has joined #OpenTTD
20:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> screenshot? savegame?
20:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> i still don't understand where there should be the bug
20:11:17  <Patrick`> gah
20:11:24  <Patrick`> look, you know the station layout?
20:11:27  <Patrick`> simple, non-roro
20:11:43  <Patrick`> 2 platforms with exit signals in front of each, a crossover, and an entrance with a presignal
20:11:47  <Patrick`> (and an exit)
20:12:21  <Patrick`> a train approaches the entrance with its next waypoint as a station on the other side of the exit
20:12:36  <Patrick`> it then ignores the pre/exit signal logic and just causes a snarlup
20:12:58  <Matt-W> so it tries to go into a platform that's occupied?
20:13:27  <Patrick`> yep
20:13:34  <Matt-W> tsk
20:13:36  <Matt-W> bad train
20:13:41  <Patrick`> the platform that happens to give the shortest path to the exit
20:13:54  <Patrick`> and then it bounces off that signal and reverses but can't exit the block
20:14:00  <Matt-W> last time that happened to me I had got the presignals wrong, but that was trains which actually wanted to go to that station
20:14:12  <Patrick`> even when it then has the option of going to a free platform, it ignores it
20:14:21  <Matt-W> the problem is presumably that it can't find a route that gets it to the station it really wants to go to
20:14:56  <Patrick`> that's no excuse for locally stupid behaviour
20:15:33  <Matt-W> it is odd how it mucks up the presignal block
20:17:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> i can understand that if there is no route to the target (i.e. distance is "infinity") that the path chosen can be pretty arbitrary
20:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> since all possible paths have the length "infinity"
20:18:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> so all paths are "shortest"
20:19:05  <Patrick`> well, I would hope it goes in the general direction
20:19:12  <Patrick`> I've lost really nice savegame I was copying
20:19:14  <Matt-W> well it is
20:19:18  <Matt-W> it's heading for its target station
20:19:22  <Patrick`> it was some guy who had multilane down pat
20:19:26  <Noldo> There should propably be some fallback to make the train go to green signals
20:19:27  <Matt-W> just that there isn't any track...
20:21:24  <Patrick`> it was some guy who actually understood proper curve handling
20:21:31  <Patrick`> and it had a vast number of trains
20:21:38  <Patrick`> I was enjoying being inspired from it, shame
20:23:42  <Matt-W> I feel humbled when I look at the forums
20:23:56  <Matt-W> I have a game that's got about 58 trains in it
20:24:00  <Matt-W> and I feel that's a lot
20:24:04  <Matt-W> but nooo, it's not
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20:33:14  <MiHaMiX> :D
20:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> i still do not see a bug there ;)
20:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> even more, i believe, if the train runs around aimlessly, it is better when it gets stuck somewehere than running around and blocking paths of other trains
20:36:40  *** Scia [] has quit ["kwiet"]
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20:38:52  <Woody4u> hi
20:39:12  <Bjarni> MiHaMiX: how is progress with the web translator?
20:39:27  <Bjarni> hi Woody4u
20:39:30  <Bjarni> err
20:39:30  <Woody4u> wow - i looked at my traffic stats for my root server 90GB in one month - and there is only a website who nobody vistis and ottd
20:39:34  <Bjarni> poor name :(
20:39:58  <Bjarni> get a better one or I will not talk to you :s
20:40:09  <Woody4u> why?
20:40:17  <Bjarni> I'm not into that
20:40:24  <Woody4u> into what?
20:40:35  <Bjarni> ...
20:40:43  <Woody4u> ahh o i forgot in us/uk is woody a bad word
20:40:44  <Bjarni> you claim to have a woody for me :(
20:41:17  <Woody4u> woody is from my lastname
20:41:23  <Bjarni> lol
20:41:27  <Woody4u> an 4u only because wasnt availabil
20:41:38  <Woody4u> and so i got this nick
20:42:05  <Bjarni> woody4u can be translated as "I got an erect penis for you"
20:42:10  <Woody4u> im from germany - and after one year the first one pointed me to that woody problem
20:42:31  <Woody4u> but i dont care
20:42:57  <Woody4u> but are 90GB traffic for a 8Company Server realistic?
20:43:11  <Bjarni> I have no idea
20:43:17  <Woody4u> 8Company/10Gamer
20:43:41  <Woody4u> ok - i thougt anybody have stats for this
20:43:41  <Bjarni> 3 k/s for each player
20:43:44  <Bjarni> do the math
20:45:10  <Woody4u> 76GB - ok realistic
20:47:04  <Woody4u> hey cool - im the "largest" server at the moment ;p
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20:48:15  <Woody4u> ok thx - by
20:48:17  *** Woody4u [] has left #openttd []
20:49:35  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: today i have 8 commits on webtranslator's svn, and thanks for your polite inquire, webtranslator is progressing well :)
20:50:19  <Bjarni> that sounds nice
20:50:33  <Bjarni> any idea when it will be online again?
20:51:34  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: i've discussed it with Darkvater yesterday :D
20:51:38  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: msg :)
20:53:10  *** sw4y [] has quit ["Odletam do paralelniho vesmiru..."]
20:58:33  <Eddi|zuHause2>
20:58:46  <guru3> awww
20:59:41  <glx|away> poor cat :(
21:02:22  *** tokai|bahamut [] has joined #openttd
21:02:54  <RichK__> lol funny cat, but fairly obvious editing (face distorted too much)
21:02:57  * valhallazzzw foobart «137»  - Weird Al Yankovic - Poodle Hat - 11 - Ebay [] [192 kbps mp3, 03:36]
21:03:00  <valhallazzzw> \o/
21:04:12  <valhallazzzw> weird al yankovic + bob ricci == O+
21:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> ??
21:05:09  <valhallazzzw> remixes of existing songs
21:05:12  <valhallazzzw> with better texts ;)
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21:33:34  <guru3> anyone with an amd here i can borrow?
21:33:41  <guru3> *amd 64
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21:37:28  <Tron> peter1138: ?
21:41:59  *** shintah [] has quit ["<volcone> tycker inte man borde få idrotta i skolan, eftersom man springer så jävulskt mkt i wow"]
21:46:10  <guru3> anyone running osx 10.2.x?
21:47:06  <Bjarni> Tron: he will return tomorrow
21:47:24  <Bjarni> guru3: why do you want 10.2?
21:47:46  <guru3> because i need to see if safaris user agent varries from 10.3
21:48:28  <Bjarni> now that's a good question
21:48:31  <Bjarni> I have no idea
21:48:48  <guru3> armagetron is 10.2.8 sensitive and im seeing about writing a automatic download selector
21:48:51  <guru3> *selecter
21:49:04  <guru3> and so it matters if i can distinguish 10.2.8 from 10.anything_else
21:49:59  <Bjarni> I know how to add 10.2.8 only code in C
21:50:35  <Bjarni> and objective C and it should work in C++ as well
21:50:42  <Bjarni> but for everything else...
21:50:53  <guru3> for some reason 10.2.8 has to have a seperate special build
21:51:03  <guru3> i think it may have something to do with libxml
21:51:07  <guru3> but i can't quite remember
21:51:46  <Bjarni> libmx (I think that is the name, else it's libxm) was introduced in 10.3
21:52:09  <Bjarni> what are you making?
21:52:29  <guru3> i'm not making anything- i work on a project called armagetron advanced
21:52:59  <guru3> part of what i do is update the website
21:53:10  <guru3> i'm writing a script to help the user get the right download
21:53:31  * Bjarni digs up his 10.2.8 HD
21:53:47  <Bjarni> let's see if I can still get it to work
21:54:05  <guru3> :D
21:54:28  <Bjarni> you have to be aware that very few people still uses 10.2.x
21:54:33  <Bjarni> it's pretty old
21:54:36  <guru3> yeah
21:54:42  <Bjarni> and I only have it for testing OTTD stuff
21:54:52  <guru3> but we've got a couple users that've raised their voices on our forums
21:54:54  <guru3> so ofc we support it
21:56:23  <Bjarni> nice, it still boots :D
21:57:31  <guru3> good start
21:58:33  <Bjarni> ok, what should be tested
21:58:48  <guru3>
21:58:52  <guru3> what does that show?
22:00:46  *** jong [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:00:49  <Bjarni> err, it would be nice to have copy paste now, but I don't :p
22:01:16  <guru3> D:
22:01:37  <guru3> damn i can't copy and paste what my 10.3 shows either so you could just compare them
22:01:51  *** jong [] has joined #openttd
22:02:02  <Bjarni> ok, here we go:
22:02:03  <guru3> yes i do :D
22:02:04  <Bjarni> os x
22:02:08  <Bjarni> new line
22:02:33  <Bjarni> mozilla/5.0 (macintosh; u ;
22:02:37  <guru3> mozilla/5.0 (macintosh; u; ppc mac os x; en) applewebkit/312.1 (khtml, like gecko) safari/312
22:02:40  <guru3> ?
22:03:06  <Bjarni> I got en-us, but that's not important
22:03:11  <Bjarni> checking the last part
22:03:47  <Bjarni> applewebkit/85.8.5
22:04:08  <guru3> and that's 10.2.8?
22:04:10  <Bjarni> safari/85.8.1
22:04:24  <Bjarni> yeah, that's 10.2.8 with all updates applied
22:04:37  <guru3> thanks
22:04:42  <guru3> i guess i can scan for that
22:04:44  <guru3> let me update the code quick
22:05:28  <guru3> refresh
22:05:32  <guru3> should call it 10.2.8
22:06:39  *** Quag-Neesh [] has joined #openttd
22:06:50  *** Quag-Neesh [] has left #openttd []
22:07:06  <Bjarni> yeah, now it says os x 10.2.8
22:07:10  <guru3> excellent
22:07:18  <guru3> thank you very much
22:07:23  <Bjarni> hehe
22:07:39  <Bjarni> a pre usb mac can still be used for something :)
22:07:48  <Bjarni> even though it's dead slow
22:08:09  <guru3> i wish i had one ><
22:11:13  *** tokai|noir is now known as tokai|away
22:14:55  *** Zr40 [] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:17:07  <Mukke> [23:08] <Bjarni> a pre usb mac can still be used for something :)     Not sure darts will stick to it. But can't imagine any other use for a mac than as a dart board
22:18:12  <Prof_Frink> Mukke: doorstop
22:18:45  <Mukke> makes too loud a noise
22:18:46  <guru3> Bjarni: if you've still got 10.2.8 running, what does say under the " Automatic Download Assistance" heading?
22:19:24  * Bjarni goes to boot again
22:22:13  *** Zr40 [] has joined #openttd
22:23:30  *** stavrosg [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:24:53  <Bjarni> guru3: not good
22:25:04  <Bjarni> setting up stuff to copy pates
22:25:17  <guru3> oy gevalt
22:25:23  <Vornicus> Warning: Unexpected character in input: '\' (ASCII=92) state=1 in /var/www/armagetronad/htdocs/downloads/index.php on line 115
22:25:23  <Vornicus> Warning: Unexpected character in input: '\' (ASCII=92) state=1 in /var/www/armagetronad/htdocs/downloads/index.php on line 115
22:25:23  <Vornicus> Parse error: parse error, unexpected T_STRING in /var/www/armagetronad/htdocs/downloads/index.php on line 115
22:25:31  <guru3> refresh
22:25:31  *** BurtyB [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:25:34  <Bjarni> ok, then I will not bother
22:25:45  *** BurtyB_ [] has joined #openttd
22:25:57  <guru3> try to make it better and i break it...
22:26:00  <guru3> should load now
22:26:02  *** RoySmeding [] has quit ["Leaving"]
22:26:05  <Bjarni> better
22:26:19  *** qball [] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
22:26:32  <Vornicus> Okay, now there's no "automatic download assistance" heading.
22:26:41  <guru3> Vornicus: what platform are you on?
22:26:50  <Vornicus> osx 10.3.9
22:27:01  <guru3> that's not good
22:27:06  <Bjarni> guru3: OSX 10.2.8
22:27:07  *** BurtyB_ is now known as BurtyB
22:27:39  <guru3> does it show the automatic download assistance bit for you Bjarni?
22:27:56  <guru3> Vornicus: what happens when you go to ?
22:28:04  <Bjarni> yeah, it says I'm using 10.2.8 and that I should get the 10.2.8 dmg
22:28:08  <Bjarni> Automatic Download Assistance
22:28:08  <Bjarni> Based on your browser a good place to start might be the dmg packages.
22:28:13  <Bjarni> this is the reply for tiger
22:28:16  <Vornicus> os x
22:28:16  <Vornicus> mozilla/5.0 (macintosh; u; ppc mac os x; en-us) applewebkit/312.8 (khtml, like gecko) safari/312.5
22:28:28  <guru3> odd
22:28:43  <guru3> Bjarni, on 10.2.8 it should add a bit more on
22:28:47  <guru3> is it not doing so?
22:29:01  <Bjarni> guru3: you may want to make that heading show better
22:29:08  <Bjarni> I searched for "automatic" to find it
22:29:15  <Bjarni> I missed it at first glance
22:29:19  <guru3> bigger you say
22:29:24  <Bjarni> yeah
22:29:49  <Bjarni> btw why do you make a 10.2.8 build?
22:29:54  <Bjarni> any reason for that?
22:29:55  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit ["Reconnecting"]
22:29:56  *** Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
22:30:06  <guru3> Bjarni, i know the full story is on our forums
22:30:16  <guru3> and i know our osx packager/developer knows why
22:30:19  * Vornicus is under the impression that 10.2 requires a slightly different bundle format...
22:30:28  <guru3> all i can remember though is that there was some fundamental incompatibility with something or another
22:30:45  <guru3> that needed somethign extra to be included or something along those lines
22:31:30  <Bjarni> Vornicus: actually not, but the 10.2.8 libs are a bit different
22:32:33  <guru3> running thru this one more time
22:32:44  <guru3> on tiger it just shows about the dmg packages
22:32:54  <guru3> but on 10.2.8 does it add the extra bit Bjarni?
22:33:33  <Bjarni> yeah, tiger tells me to use the dmg and 10.2.8 tells me to use the 10.2.8 dmg
22:33:38  <guru3> excellent
22:33:41  <guru3> i hope that helps people out
22:33:46  <Bjarni> I can't find it on the forum :(
22:33:52  <guru3> let me take a look
22:34:05  <guru3> posts would be between nemosemulate and oscilloscope
22:36:22  *** jong [] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
22:37:02  *** tokai|away is now known as tokai|2
22:38:20  <guru3> i may have narrowed it down to one thread
22:38:25  <guru3> problem is said thread is 30 pages long
22:38:51  <Bjarni> heh
22:39:09  <guru3>
22:39:11  <guru3> around there somewhere
22:40:22  *** ProfFrink [] has joined #openttd
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22:40:41  *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
22:42:54  *** jong [] has joined #openttd
22:43:55  <guru3> darn sorry Bjarni, i can't find it
22:45:09  <Bjarni> I just downloaded the source. Maybe the project file tells more
22:45:28  <guru3> good idea
22:46:10  <guru3> ive sent off a pm
22:46:20  <guru3> i'll let you know of the response when i get it
22:47:44  <Bjarni> MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET is not set to anything
22:47:49  *** Forexsmas is now known as Forexs
22:49:16  <Bjarni> not configured to make universal binaries either
22:49:36  <guru3> yeah... no one on our team really has a intel mac
22:50:02  <Bjarni> but since there are no comments in those settings, I can't say if it is to reduce compile time or what
22:50:14  *** _Luca_ [n=thelucst@] has joined #openttd
22:50:31  <_Luca_> Evening
22:50:32  <Bjarni> 	<guru3>	yeah... no one on our team really has a intel mac <-- heh, I had a working universal binary of OpenTTD before anybody showed up with an Intel mac
22:50:49  <Bjarni> it's just a matter of knowing what you do
22:50:52  <guru3> well you know, can't expect everyone to be an osx development genius now can you
22:50:59  <Bjarni> and Apple even made it easier after I did it
22:51:30  <guru3> brb
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22:51:48  *** _Luca_ [n=thelucst@] has joined #openttd
22:51:56  <Bjarni> <guru3>	well you know, can't expect everyone to be an osx development genius now can you <-- I haven't done anything for OSX besides OTTD and then I read on a need to know basis
22:52:09  <Bjarni> that's not what I would call an expert
22:52:20  <Bjarni> but then again, why disagree with you ;)
22:52:30  * Vornicus randomly ponders: does ottd account for leap years?
22:52:44  <Bjarni> I don't think so
22:52:53  * Vornicus tries to find out.
22:53:10  <Bjarni> use fast forward if you don't want to read a lot of code
22:54:23  * Vornicus starts a game at 1956 and waits.
22:54:26  <Vornicus> Yep!
22:54:28  <Vornicus> It does!
22:54:35  <_Luca_> Haha, one of my ISPs servers core dumped on Tuesday morning disconnecting 30,000 users :P
22:55:17  <Bjarni> Vornicus: actually it do take leap year into account
22:55:20  <Bjarni> never knew that
22:55:33  <_Luca_> OpenTTD has 30 day months
22:55:58  <guru3> back
22:56:18  <Bjarni> it went from the 28th of feb to the 1st of march in 1935, but it also used the 29th in 1936
22:56:38  <guru3> cool
22:56:55  <Vornicus> and it got to jan31 for mine, so no, it doesn't use 30 day months.
22:57:13  <_Luca_> hmm
22:57:19  <_Luca_> maybe I am thinking of something else
22:57:26  <Prof_Frink> Does it have y3k as a leap year?
22:57:38  <Prof_Frink> 'cause it shouldn't
22:57:52  <_Luca_> we only have up to 2090 don't we/
22:57:56  <_Luca_> or was that fixed?
22:58:15  <Bjarni> no 2090 is the limit
22:58:22  <Bjarni> to prevent an overflow
22:58:59  <Prof_Frink> how silly
22:59:10  <Vornicus> There's nothing in the range of the current system that would hit the 100-year leap exception.
22:59:30  <_Luca_> 100 year leap exception?
22:59:53  <Prof_Frink> y2k = leap, y2100 != leap
23:00:17  <_Luca_> uh
23:00:21  *** Xeryus|afk is now known as XeryusTC
23:00:41  <Vornicus> all years that are multiples of four are leap years, except for years that are multiples of 100... but if a year is a multiple of 400, it is a leap year anyway.
23:01:11  <Vornicus> So 2100, 2200, 2300 would not be leap years, but 2000 and 2400 would be.
23:01:30  <_Luca_> lol - that is the stupedist thing I have ever heard
23:01:33  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has joined #openttd
23:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought 2000 wasn't one?
23:01:41  <_Luca_> ok, maybe not quite as stupid as imperial measurements
23:01:44  <Vornicus> 2000 was one.
23:01:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> kay ;)
23:02:53  <guru3> good night ya'll
23:04:14  <_Luca_> night
23:05:32  *** ProfFrink [] has joined #openttd
23:05:52  <Bjarni> guru3: that's actually a nice little game
23:06:11  <Bjarni> but it's more like a quick key game than a long time strategy game
23:06:35  <_Luca_> Is this armagetron?
23:06:48  <Bjarni> yes
23:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> [19.03. 00:04] <_Luca_> lol - that is the stupedist thing I have ever heard <- the problem is that the day and the year are asynchronous ;)
23:07:08  <Bjarni> I will not try it on the G3 though
23:07:13  <Bjarni> it lacks 3D hardware :p
23:07:22  <_Luca_> i love it, but yeah I prefer long time strategies rather
23:07:39  <_Luca_> Eddi|zuHause2: Still, I am sure something could be done
23:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> well... something WAS done... hence the leap years with all kinds of exceptions
23:08:49  <_Luca_> something more metric then
23:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> time is not metric ;)
23:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> so why should the leap years?
23:09:47  *** CobraA1 [] has left #openttd []
23:10:12  <_Luca_> well, we need metric time :P
23:13:05  <_Luca_> Dunno whether any of you have seen - /me wants
23:14:53  *** DarkSSH [] has joined #openttd
23:14:56  *** mode/#openttd [+o DarkSSH] by ChanServ
23:15:02  <Bjarni> hi DarkSSH
23:15:20  <DarkSSH> 'ello, shut down main box :)
23:21:40  <DarkSSH> Tron: what kind of terraforming bug?
23:22:16  *** MeusH [] has joined #openttd
23:24:05  <MeusH> hello
23:24:13  <MeusH> is it just me or doesn't work?
23:24:35  <MeusH> and doesn't work, too. However, work o_O
23:24:39  <glx|away> it's just you
23:24:39  <_Luca_> just you
23:24:52  <MeusH> thanks
23:24:56  <MeusH> I find it very strange
23:25:00  *** glx|away is now known as glx
23:25:06  <MeusH> maybye a virus or trojan...
23:25:24  <MeusH> I'm posting on the forum right now but I can't acces any other site
23:25:34  <BurtyB> could be dns related
23:25:48  <glx> MeusH: try
23:26:01  <glx> if it works then it's a dns problem
23:26:17  *** Darkvater [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:27:18  <MeusH> it works
23:27:20  <MeusH> hey, thanks
23:27:47  <MeusH> I'm calling to my internet supplier this morning
23:27:54  <MeusH> damn, it's sunday...
23:28:03  <_Luca_> are you using windows?
23:28:20  <MeusH> yes. I haven't tried it on linux, yet
23:28:28  <_Luca_> try ipconfig /flushdns
23:28:42  <_Luca_> it cleans out the dns cache
23:29:06  <DarkSSH> Bjarni: what is guessUTF8?
23:29:33  *** mode/#openttd [-o DarkSSH] by DarkSSH
23:30:54  <MeusH> _Luca_, it said it cleared the files succesfully
23:31:06  <MeusH> however, I still can't load webpages
23:31:09  <_Luca_> lol
23:31:19  <_Luca_> try pinging the hostname
23:31:23  <MeusH> hmm I'll check it from under linux
23:31:24  <MeusH> okay
23:31:57  <_Luca_> if not change your dns servers to and
23:32:32  <MeusH> whose server is this? yours?
23:32:40  <_Luca_> no
23:33:05  <_Luca_> Level 3 dns servers
23:33:10  <_Luca_> If that don't work nout will
23:33:31  <MeusH> can you explain me "level 3"? Just curious
23:33:56  <_Luca_> They are a big company that is responsible for a large part of the internet
23:34:18  <_Luca_> they basically hold a few backbones connecting other companies
23:34:28  <MeusH> it works! Thank you
23:34:41  <_Luca_> goodo
23:34:54  <_Luca_> now email your ISP and tell them they have crappy DNS servers :P
23:35:00  <MeusH> However I must call that LAN guy, I do not enjoy my connection recently
23:35:08  <MeusH> yeah :D
23:35:33  <DarkSSH> const char *inbuf = statin;
23:35:33  <DarkSSH> if(inbuf == NULL)
23:35:34  <DarkSSH>
23:35:34  <DarkSSH>
23:35:34  <DarkSSH> 	641
23:35:36  <DarkSSH> 	    inbuf = statin;
23:35:41  <DarkSSH> how much sense does this make??
23:35:56  <_Luca_> er
23:36:28  <DarkSSH> hmm, wait let's try again, perhaps the first assignment didn't go through?
23:36:28  <_Luca_> whoa - level 3 have a transatlantic connection of 60 gbit/s
23:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> so what... you don't? :p
23:38:39  <_Luca_> no :(
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23:41:47  *** BJH [] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]"]
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23:48:08  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
23:48:08  *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
23:53:09  <vrak> what's the status on pbs ?
23:56:22  <DarkSSH> yellow?
23:57:42  <valhallazzzw> purple!
23:57:47  <valhallazzzw> with a golden edge \o/
23:58:12  <vrak> -.-
23:58:18  <DarkSSH> hehe
23:58:38  <DarkSSH> vrak: KUDr is working on it, but he has to work on the pathfinder before he can resume PBS
23:58:45  <vrak> aha
23:59:06  <vrak> so whatever old versions i might find aren't really recommended to play with, pretty much?
23:59:24  <vrak> (say, an old IN or something)
23:59:34  <DarkSSH> well you can play but when you upgrade you'll use your PBS networks most likely
23:59:48  <DarkSSH> and IN still has PBS, I don't think they removed it

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