Log for #openttd on 13th April 2006:
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06:07:37  <Naksu> hahahaha
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06:09:59  <peter1138> yuck
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06:53:03  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: lol :))
06:53:11  <Celestar> lol
06:53:17  <Celestar> that's not how we do it, right?
06:53:18  <Celestar> :P
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06:54:54  <Naksu> after browsing the daily wtf for a while i've come to realize that hiding server-side executable in client-side is the norm
06:55:05  <Naksu> +code
06:55:14  <Naksu> usually it's just SQL queries in a cookie
06:55:20  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: jesus
06:56:03  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: I used to store SQL queries within the session data a year ago, but not anymore :)
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06:58:54  <Naksu> here's one as well
06:59:46  <MiHaMiX> LOL
06:59:51  <MiHaMiX>
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07:02:49  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: the last one is unbelieveable :)
07:03:29  <Naksu> bah i cant find the best wtf from there
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07:04:04  <Naksu> there was some self-rewriting asp-thingy in there
07:04:49  <Naksu> that replaced a part of it's code with something a client-side javascript thingy made
07:06:08  <MiHaMiX> hihi :DD
07:10:34  <Celestar> Tron: sorry for the messup yesterday. I've decided to refrain from worrying about the nightlies ^^
07:16:31  <peter1138> why does that array have a dimension of 16 but only 15 values?
07:16:57  <peter1138> (i know 15 isn't a valid tileh, but still...)
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07:27:43  <MeusH> hello
07:27:45  <MeusH> hey MiHaMiX
07:27:51  <MeusH> awaken
07:31:39  <MiHaMiX> MeusH: hi
07:31:49  <MiHaMiX> MeusH: I had to fix your wagon string
07:31:55  <MiHaMiX> MeusH: I'll explain in PM why
07:32:18  <MeusH> ok
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08:10:01  *** mode/#openttd [+o DarkSSH] by ChanServ
08:10:04  *** DarkSSH is now known as Darkvater
08:10:10  *** mode/#openttd [-o Darkvater] by Darkvater
08:11:02  <peter1138> morningitis
08:11:46  <MeusH> hello
08:12:23  <Darkvater> KUDr: ping
08:12:25  <Darkvater> morning
08:13:10  <Darkvater> KUDr: I hope you realize that the settings you have added to settings.c need to be an SDT_CONDVAR otherwise games will fail to load?
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08:40:15  <KUDr> Darkvater: after i made them, i realized, that something goes wrong and i will need your help/consultation
08:40:30  <KUDr> morning
08:41:16  <Zr40> heh
08:41:18  <Zr40>
08:41:27  <KUDr> i didn't want to save it in savegames, but wanted to let user to set it via GUI
08:44:43  <MeusH> nice image Zr40 :)
08:45:44  <Darkvater> KUDr: ah, not save it? Add the 'S' flag :)
08:46:25  <Darkvater> KUDr: but it's not that big of a problem. It'll be sorted out anyways when merged
08:46:41  <Darkvater> although if it has to do with pathfinding, you HAVE to save it with the savegame, otherwise MP will desync
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08:48:54  <KUDr> Darkvater: for MP i plan to have that user based
08:49:09  <KUDr> so i must send it to server
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08:49:19  <KUDr> a to other clients
08:49:26  <KUDr> dunno how
08:49:30  <MeusH> you mean, one player uses normal pathfinder, and the other one uses yapf?
08:49:58  <KUDr> but each user should decide what pf he wants (if he chooses YAPF)
08:50:15  <KUDr> MeusH maybe
08:50:25  <Darkvater> hmm, but that means that ALL pathfinders NEED to behave EXACTLY the same in ALL circumstances
08:50:30  <KUDr> or at least when YAPF will be selected
08:50:43  <Darkvater> (all YAPF)
08:50:46  <KUDr> let user to customize at least some parameters
08:50:53  <KUDr> including PBS (later)
08:51:35  <MeusH> KUDr: what if a company is managed by two players with different pathfinder options?
08:51:50  <Darkvater> well if you can do that, that's fine. But if not all patch-settings need to be the same which will result in needing to save it
08:51:58  <KUDr> Darkvater: no but on each cleants it must select the same type of YAPF per-user
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08:52:30  <Darkvater> ok, that's possible, user-based pathfinding
08:52:35  <KUDr> i don't know what can be done, it is just an idea now
08:52:48  <Darkvater> thus that will require the pathfinder to take ownership into account
08:53:12  <KUDr> we need to talk more about that, but now i must go to work
08:53:17  <KUDr> i am already late
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08:53:44  <Darkvater> :)
08:53:46  <Darkvater> jo munkat
08:53:49  <KUDr> yes, ownership must be evaluated on the beginning from vehicle
08:55:04  <KUDr> jo munkat?
08:56:03  * peter1138 updates past2090
08:56:11  <KUDr> <MeusH> KUDr: what if a company is managed by two players with different pathfinder options? <- dunno - must be designed
08:56:32  <Darkvater> KUDr: your wife was hungarian no? It means 'have a nice day at work' :)
08:56:47  <KUDr> heh
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08:57:24  <MeusH> "Road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects)" - what is quantum effect?
08:57:25  <KUDr> it is not so bad, i am out of service already
08:57:59  * KUDr is going to work
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09:15:42  <Celestar> Darkvater: I'll be in Budapest today :)
09:15:49  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: really?
09:15:53  <Celestar> yeah
09:15:58  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: don't you come to Szeged? :)
09:16:03  <Celestar> not that I know of.
09:16:28  <Celestar> does anyone know whether I can go directly from M1 to M3 or do I still have to drive through the city?
09:16:45  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: you have to drive through the city
09:16:54  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: since M0 is far from finished
09:16:55  <Celestar> ok.
09:16:58  <Celestar> will do :)
09:17:03  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: M0 will be the ring around Budapest
09:17:14  <Celestar> MiHaMiX: yes. "will be" sounds awfully like munich.
09:17:33  <Celestar> the A99 WILL be the ring around Munich..
09:17:35  <Celestar> about 2050
09:17:55  <Celestar> but ok I'll be offline till Monday night.
09:18:06  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: M0 currently ties M1, M5 and M7
09:18:20  <Celestar> yes.
09:18:25  <Celestar> that much I noticed last time :)
09:18:38  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: so if you're coming to Szeged, you don't need to drive through the city, since M5 leads you to Szeged :)
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09:18:44  <Celestar> really have to go now.
09:18:51  <Celestar> 1000km to drive to day.
09:19:12  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: where do you go, btw?
09:19:18  <Celestar> Kosice
09:19:22  <Celestar> aka Kassa
09:19:30  <MiHaMiX> ahh
09:19:39  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: what are you doing at Kosice? :)
09:19:42  <Celestar> Tron: I'll be at you university next week, Thursday morning to Friday afternoon.
09:19:48  <Celestar> MiHaMiX: visiting my family.
09:19:53  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: ahh :)
09:19:56  <Celestar> including my 97 year old grandmother.
09:20:02  <Celestar> MiHaMiX: we're 3 people today, so car.
09:20:07  <MiHaMiX> uhh, pretty old :)
09:20:07  <Celestar> when I'm alone, I fly.
09:20:11  <Celestar> takes 2:55h
09:20:19  <Celestar> car ... 11 hours :S
09:20:31  <Celestar> plus more expensive
09:20:31  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: well, driving will take longer than 2:55 :)
09:20:39  <Celestar> (last time my mother payed 250 EUR for speeding)
09:20:47  <Celestar> paid*
09:20:48  <MiHaMiX> but not / person :)
09:20:53  <Celestar> lol no.
09:20:53  <MiHaMiX> ahh, that's not good ;)
09:21:08  * MiHaMiX has never ever been fined because of speeding
09:21:10  <Celestar> but I tried to explain the cop that she through the 120km/h is per person.
09:21:18  <peter1138> hehe
09:21:42  <Celestar> but he didn't buy it.
09:21:46  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: you had a wrong argument
09:21:47  <Celestar> ok
09:21:50  <Celestar> CU next week.
09:22:18  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: you'd have to say: we're using SI as units, and you thought that 70 was m/s :)
09:22:32  <MiHaMiX> and 70m/s ~ 250km/h :)
09:22:33  <MeusH> :DD
09:23:08  <MiHaMiX> 252 km/h :)
09:23:12  <Celestar> ok someone de-op me please
09:23:17  *** Celestar is now known as Celaway
09:23:36  *** mode/#openttd [-o Celaway] by MiHaMiX
09:24:35  <MeusH> MiHaMiX: is TT "hovercraft" true hovercraft? It looks like a... (can't remember english word for this...)
09:24:36  <Darkvater> Celaway: cool! Hope you have a great time in BP :D
09:25:44  <Darkvater> hmm, great, missed everything
09:30:40  <MiHaMiX> MeusH: I don't know :)
09:33:39  <MeusH> so, from now it will be just like wodolot.gif :)
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09:38:33  <peter1138> catamaran
09:40:25  <stillunknown> does ottd currently "know" how far trains are apart?
09:42:01  <MeusH> Ships in TT sux
09:42:57  <MeusH> there is no difference between bulk carrier and other cargo ships
09:43:27  <MeusH> no difference if there is coal/ore/grain or livestock/goods/valuables
09:43:32  <MeusH> too bad
09:44:11  <KUDr_wrk> MeusH: what should be different?
09:44:45  <Rexxie> more ships, better docks, different running cost
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09:45:15  <KUDr_wrk> hmm if it is refittable, it should be ok
09:46:51  <stillunknown> would it require an overhaul of ottd to make electric close together slower?
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09:47:59  <KUDr_wrk> <stillunknown>: like because they share one power supply?
09:48:16  <stillunknown> yes
09:49:07  <KUDr_wrk> theoretically they should have only slower acceleration, but only when they both/all accelerate at one time
09:49:09  <MeusH> KUDr_wrk - bulk ships can carry not packed materials, like coal
09:49:41  <KUDr_wrk> MeusH: aha, understand - would be good
09:49:48  <MeusH> While the other cargo ships carry packed materials
09:49:52  <MeusH> goods, mail, valuables
09:49:57  <KUDr_wrk> yes
09:50:09  <KUDr_wrk> makes sense
09:50:15  <stillunknown> @Kudr: if you have 5 TGV's in a row, then they will not have the power to fight air friction and such
09:50:23  <MeusH> I encountered it translating ship strings - now I noticed there are no different kinds of ship
09:50:24  <stillunknown> so they will slow down
09:50:32  <MeusH> just one big ship for whatever
09:50:37  <KUDr_wrk> but then the same with trains - bulk wagon, and cargo wagon
09:50:45  <MeusH> yeah
09:50:54  <KUDr_wrk> stillunknown: they will not slow down
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09:51:16  <jong> stillunknown: it really depends on the type of trains
09:51:19  <KUDr_wrk> stillunknown: it would take them longer to reach the top speed
09:51:28  <jong> KUDr_wrk: no, that is not really true
09:51:50  <jong> KUDr_wrk: once they are at top speed they still usurp large amounts of power
09:51:50  <KUDr_wrk> jong: on plain terrain it is true
09:52:12  <KUDr_wrk> jong: once they reach top speed, they consume nearly nothing
09:52:24  <jong> KUDr_wrk: at top speed all of the energy the train can give will be in friction
09:52:33  <jong> KUDr_wrk: since otherwise the train would be able to go even faster
09:52:49  <stillunknown> once really realistic acceleration is in trunk(physics patches), that problem will mostly be gone
09:52:58  <KUDr_wrk> jong: speed limit is about construction, not about power
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09:53:11  <jong> KUDr_wrk: if that is true, I'll drop my case
09:53:29  <KUDr_wrk> it is true at least in real life
09:53:36  <stillunknown> i was also thinking of high speed running cost penalty for engines (in comparison) have a lot of tractive effor
09:53:37  <stillunknown> t
09:53:48  <stillunknown> because they are mostly freight engines
09:54:08  <stillunknown> who aren't build for high speeds --> more maintanance needed
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09:55:06  <KUDr_wrk> stillunknown: the running cost should be c1 * miles + c2 * power_consumed + c3 * lifetime   <---- but it is too complicated
09:55:54  <KUDr_wrk> aha - who is not build for higher speed, can't go faster - safety + construction limits
09:55:58  <jong> (btw, the Netherlands has started as one of the first countries with electrifying the railways, for that reason the voltage on the lines is too low to sustain two locs on one block)
09:56:55  <stillunknown> is a day the smallest timestep ottd internally has?
09:57:29  <KUDr_wrk> jong: in CZ we have 3 kV on most of lines and the same problems - when two trains need to accelerate at one time, another one must help them by slowing down and charging the line
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09:57:50  <jong> KUDr_wrk: yeps, same thing here
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09:57:55  <MeusH> stillunknown - the smalles timestep would be one tick
09:58:04  <stillunknown> tick = ?
09:58:12  <MeusH> and there are ~72 ticks per second. But probably I'm wrong, correct me please
09:58:20  <MeusH> most things happen on tick
09:58:40  <jong_> re
09:58:44  <MeusH> like building things, vehicles changing speed, vehicles checking collisions
09:58:53  <stillunknown> day = c1 * tick, c1 = ?
09:59:09  <MeusH> but for typical player, one day is the smallest timestep
09:59:26  <MeusH> c1?
09:59:29  <FauxFaux> Mmm.. collisions.. can't you have trains going opposite directions fast enough to pass through each other? ;)
09:59:31  <stillunknown> a constant
09:59:56  <MeusH> stillunknown: it is being counted by computer
10:00:11  <MeusH> time is being measured differently on different platforms
10:00:26  <MeusH> ask someone wiser for help - OpenTTD uses complex time measurement
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10:01:56  <peter1138> 74 ticks per day
10:02:04  <peter1138> ~ 33 ticks per second
10:02:34  <stillunknown> i was thinking of using running cost --> 50% is constant maintainence, the remainder is variable, 15-20% if the engine is running (in a station), 100% at recommended maximum speed, and a non-linear curve which depends on engine type (power:tractive effort ratio for example)
10:03:27  <stillunknown> calculated per tick, and the sum of the whole month will be the running cost dis played next month
10:05:23  <stillunknown> but the difficult part of one of my ideas is, can a train determine the amount of blocks the next and the previous train is
10:07:47  <stillunknown> which would make realistic electric train beheaviour possible
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10:08:55  <peter1138> and what defines a block?
10:09:25  <Sacro> turnips
10:10:19  <stillunknown> i mean how many track sections away
10:10:35  <peter1138> ...
10:10:39  <peter1138> and what defines a track section?
10:11:19  <stillunknown> the size in which track is laid
10:11:25  <stillunknown> the piece size
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10:13:05  <stillunknown> or the amount of squares you pass when seeking for the train
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10:19:23  <peter1138> tiles then
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10:26:03  <stillunknown> is anything like that present? (maybe for signals)
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10:45:24  <peter1138> no
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11:42:49  <peter1138> Darkvater: greek / russian... could we provide a method to load an alternate graphics file containing their characters?
11:43:45  <Bjarni> I wondered about that as well
11:44:01  <Bjarni> except I got the idea when I saw the Chinese translation
11:44:07  <peter1138> that too
11:44:37  <peter1138> it's a bit of a hack though
11:44:43  <peter1138> internal utf-8 \o/
11:44:52  <Bjarni> yeah
11:44:58  <Bjarni> you better start coding :p
11:45:01  <peter1138> :/
11:45:18  <peter1138> hmm
11:45:31  <peter1138> well, the text rendering doesn't *need* to use sprite ids does it...
11:46:37  <Bjarni> you go wonder about that one. I have to leave now :/
11:46:43  <peter1138> boo :P
11:47:26  <Bjarni> and I expect at least 90 unread svn commit messages in my inbox when I return
11:48:05  <Bjarni> currently it got 88, which I haven't had time to look at yet
11:48:07  <Bjarni> bye
11:48:10  * Vornicus blings
11:49:13  <peter1138> hmm
11:49:51  <peter1138> We'd need a Sprite object to blit
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11:59:50  <peter1138> or just have a separate range for characters
11:59:51  <peter1138> hmm
12:00:27  <peter1138> guess it would need a fontcache system
12:01:08  <peter1138> prerender the common ascii chars and render (into the cache) other chars as needed
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12:09:23  <MiHaMiX> WT2 supports UTF8
12:09:33  <MiHaMiX> since WT2 stores the strings in UTF8 format internally
12:09:37  <peter1138> hmm
12:09:38  <peter1138> cool
12:09:44  <MiHaMiX> currently it just validates input for iso8859-15
12:09:54  <MiHaMiX> and produces output in iso8859-15 format
12:09:59  <peter1138> good planning though :)
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12:10:02  <MiHaMiX> another question:
12:10:13  <MiHaMiX> is lng files plattform independent?
12:10:31  <peter1138> should be
12:10:38  <MiHaMiX> I mean, translators would like to get precompiled lng files from WT2 to test
12:10:52  <peter1138> that would be a nice feature
12:11:22  <MiHaMiX> yes, and I have ideas for other brilliant features :)
12:11:55  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: I managed to fix that error I'd like to ask your help yesterday night, so I'll not disturb you with that problem :)
12:13:28  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: WT2 managed to made firefox fly in a reproducible way
12:13:38  <Vornicus> what is WT2?
12:13:48  <peter1138> web translator 2
12:13:49  <MiHaMiX> #define WT2 "WebTranslator2"
12:13:51  <Vornicus> aah
12:15:20  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: btw, where will STR_UNITS_FORCE_FOOBAR strings used?
12:23:36  <peter1138> they're used within the units system, and only there
12:23:50  <peter1138> tractive effort for trains will use {FORCE}
12:25:05  <peter1138> possibly other stuff
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12:25:35  <peter1138> but don't tell Born_Acorn
12:26:01  <Born_Acorn> no, don't.
12:26:08  <Born_Acorn> My head might asplode
12:26:34  <Born_Acorn> which is bad in times of war.
12:27:29  <Bjarni> back
12:27:34  <Bjarni> hmm
12:27:39  <Bjarni> Born_Acorn is at war
12:27:55  <Bjarni> did some strange girl peek at you or something?
12:28:30  <Born_Acorn> No. It is a much longer tale of lies, corruption, deceit and destruction.
12:28:47  <Born_Acorn> A strange girl peeked at me.
12:40:30  <Bjarni> well, I once saw an incident where a strange girl/woman did more than peeking at a man. It was in the uni cantina. Some delivery guy showed up with something and said something to one of the staff, which happened to be an African woman. I don't know what because it was not loud. She replied loud and called him something like sweetheart/darling/baby (I'm not really sure how to translate it) and said that he should see more of her or
12:40:30  <Bjarni>  something like that. Everybody looked and started laughing and this delivery guy got all confused and turned speechless
12:41:16  <Bjarni> I'm not really sure how I would react to some strange African woman, who said something like that to me out loud ;)
12:41:51  <Bjarni> maybe Born_Acorn is a delivery guy
12:42:56  <Bjarni> actually thinking about it, discard the African thing from the last sentence. I'm not sure how I would react to a woman saying something like that to me, nomatter where she comes from
12:46:07  <Meush[away]> <@peter1138> they're used within the units system, and only there  <-- is it already in SVN?
12:46:13  *** Meush[away] is now known as MeusH
12:46:16  <Bjarni> Born_Acorn: some strange woman appeared to show an interest in you, so you declared war on her?
12:46:58  <MeusH> I'd like to translate it but it's better to know what to translate rather than word-by-word straight translating
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12:53:26  <peter1138> MeusH: force, yes, but not tractive effort
12:53:45  *** Belugas_Gone is now known as Belugas
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12:54:18  <Belugas> Good day to you all!
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12:56:12  <MeusH> peter1138: where is it in-game so I can see it?
12:56:15  <MeusH> hello Belugas!
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13:06:17  <hylje> annoying that ai players cant remove their roads
13:09:45  <Born_Acorn> Yes. I declare war on people in the streets at random
13:26:32  <peter1138> Meush[brb]: it isn't yet
13:27:01  <peter1138> so,
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13:33:19  *** Meush[brb] is now known as MeusH
13:33:23  <MeusH> thanks peter1138
13:33:24  *** MeusH is now known as Meush[brb]
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13:35:10  <MeusH> what's the difference between IMPERIAL_UK and IMPERIAL?
13:35:56  <peter1138> IMPERIAL matches the original game units
13:36:02  <peter1138> it's a mishmash
13:36:14  <peter1138> imperial for speed, metric for weight & volume etc
13:36:32  <Belugas> Touch and Go MeusH :)  Hello again hehe
13:37:56  <MeusH> peter1138: is it planned to remove original "Imperial" measurement, or it will stay?
13:37:58  <MeusH> hey Belugas
13:38:06  <peter1138> MeusH: it'll stay i think
13:38:13  <peter1138> i know i use it :)
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13:38:26  <peter1138> it doesn't really cost us anything
13:38:29  *** Netsplit over, joins: pasky, guru3
13:38:38  <MeusH> that's also right
13:39:09  <MeusH> peter1138: where is the code of road vehicle stopping at the level crossing?
13:39:25  <MeusH> I can't find it anywhere and I think level crossing acts just like a road junction
13:39:35  <MeusH> which is blocked or free
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13:53:16  <MeusH> peter1138: how's your progress on 2cc?
13:54:16  <MeusH> WOW it looks awesome!
13:54:36  <MeusH> but... it is based on ugly hacks and will not be committed?
13:57:59  <CIA-3> KUDr * r4409 /branch/yapf/settings.c:
13:57:59  <CIA-3> [YAPF] - don't save _pathes.yapf_type_ships & npf_max_search_nodes (the second is needed now for tunning YAPF)
13:57:59  <CIA-3>  - the max value for npf_max_search_nodes increased from 10k to 1M
14:00:01  <KUDr_wrk> <MeusH> WOW it looks awesome! <-- agree, it looks REALLY NICE
14:03:27  <peter1138> MeusH: no
14:03:33  <peter1138> MeusH: that's tron's work too
14:03:43  <peter1138> MeusH: there will be progress on that soon
14:10:54  <MeusH> yeah, I remember Tron cleanin up bridges :)
14:11:07  <MeusH> And if he is doing something this is certainly not a hack :D
14:11:40  <MeusH> TTDP will be totally ruled, soon
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14:36:18  <glx> KUDr_wrk: pathfinder settings need to be saved for network games
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14:39:38  <Mackay> does anyone know if co-op multiplayer's possible?
14:42:27  <hylje> yes
14:42:58  <KUDr_wrk> [16:38:18] <glx> KUDr_wrk: pathfinder settings need to be saved for network games <-- I know, but i am not sure it there is no other solution than save it also in savegames - i need to test it with different settings on one savegame. This was not possible
14:44:08  <glx> only savegame is transfered for network games
14:44:36  <Mackay> awesome
14:44:37  <KUDr_wrk> but i can send some commands or so
14:44:39  <Mackay> cheers
14:44:44  <KUDr_wrk> will solve it later
14:44:57  <glx> yeah for now debug locally :)
14:45:31  <KUDr_wrk> i debug locally but not on one pc only
14:45:50  <glx> but not in mutliplayer mode
14:45:54  <KUDr_wrk> and with saved values nobody can play with such values
14:46:07  <KUDr_wrk> OK, do you know how?
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14:47:03  <KUDr_wrk> glx: later it will be property of company/player
14:47:13  <KUDr_wrk> and you can change it during gameplay
14:47:23  <KUDr_wrk> so it must be synced by different way
14:47:38  <glx> will be hard to do, but why not :)
14:48:01  <KUDr_wrk> no ide how difficult it will be to distribute such info
14:48:29  <KUDr_wrk> but YAPF is ready to be per-company or per-vehicle or per-station....
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14:58:35  * jnmbk is looking forward to login webtranslator2...
15:09:29  <izhirahider> same here
15:14:16  <peter1138> KUDr_wrk: you need to implement commands to send that information
15:14:55  <peter1138> however
15:15:03  <peter1138> if you want it per vehicle/station
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15:15:11  <peter1138> you might want to consider adding the choice to the orders system
15:15:17  <peter1138> dunno how easy/hard that would be
15:15:47  <peter1138> hmm, switching modes would then require updating all the orders
15:16:00  <peter1138> is this level of control really needed? heh
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15:24:08  <tamlin> peter1138: What exactly is this "mode" that would have to modify all existing orders?
15:24:19  <peter1138> pathfinding
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15:24:45  <MeusH> why would it need to change orders?
15:25:23  <peter1138> dunno
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15:28:27  <tamlin> Could you check into it - to see if it really needs this, or if its simply (as I think) more a matter of resetting pathfinding for all vehicles before changing pathfinding algo?
15:29:57  <tamlin> Perhaps there are even a few bits in each vehicle to spare, to tell what path-finding algo they are currently using? That could remove the need to run through all vehicles and reset them (even if it's only a few thousand clock cycles).
15:31:01  <peter1138> personally i'd have one pathfinding method and stick to it
15:31:14  <MeusH> that's right peter1138
15:31:21  <MeusH> I'm with yapf and nothing else
15:31:28  <tamlin> Obviously - but as it's still in flux...
15:31:30  <peter1138> could be different method for ship/train/plane./..
15:31:57  <MeusH> developers should take care of one pathfinder, not dozens different pathfinders
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15:32:44  <Richk67> hi all
15:33:46  <Richk67> peter1138: ping
15:33:50  <peter1138> MeusH: yeah
15:33:51  <peter1138> pong
15:34:21  <Richk67> hi - im trying to update an old patch, and a function has been removed... any idea what it has been replaced by??
15:34:22  <Richk67>           x += _railbit.xinc[trackdir];
15:34:22  <Richk67>           y += _railbit.yinc[trackdir];
15:34:41  <tamlin> MeusH: While I agree, I also recognize the need to be able to test different algo's. One way could be to simply reset all found paths for all vehicles when switching. Perhaps iterating all vehicles affected indeed is the cleanest way.
15:34:47  <glx> Richk67: which file?
15:35:58  <Richk67> this is a call from the signal autocompletion patch, in rail_cmd.c... but the code for _railbit isnt in the patch, so i guess its one that has been updated in rail_map.h, or rail.h  but i cant work out what it is
15:36:18  <MeusH> tamlin: it is allright with various pathfinders only if there are enough developers to provide steady, but continous support
15:36:38  <MeusH> however, currently there are only a few developers contributing sometimes to the pathfinders
15:36:39  <glx> Richk67: I think it's a recent Celestar's change
15:37:25  <peter1138> Richk67: no
15:37:27  <Richk67> lol - well recent as in since 3464 ;)
15:37:33  <peter1138> no idea
15:37:40  <peter1138> celestar/tron have been doing all that
15:37:52  <tamlin> MeusH: OK, then I think it's better to just iterate all vehicles and invalidate any and all found paths they have, when switching path-finding algo.
15:38:16  <Richk67> im guessing it simply is a crosstable of +1/0/-1 for x and y depending on what track direction is
15:40:31  <tamlin> Considering the name x/yinc, I'd say it'd verge on malice if that wasn't the case. :-)
15:41:22  <Richk67> yup
15:41:42  <tamlin> Richk67: Could this be not be found by submitting the target to path finding and just checking the path returned now? (seems logical from where I stand)
15:41:47  <MeusH> tamlin: that's good idea, but some people here may argue that this may kill older computers
15:42:06  <MeusH> Darkvater: How's the donation thingy and buying the PDA?
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15:42:14  <MeusH> or any other PocketPC?
15:42:17  *** dp__ is now known as dp--
15:42:49  <tamlin> MeusH: Not a chance! We're not switching path-finfind algo twice a second, are we? This surely must be a developer thing - to test different algo's, no?
15:43:44  <MeusH> yes
15:43:50  <glx> Richk67: r4344
15:44:12  <MeusH> but someone here wrote an idea of vehicles with different pathfinders at once
15:44:32  <MeusH> would it mean changing pathfinder once a while?
15:44:40  <MeusH> Oh, RichK67: when is your IN coming along?
15:44:53  <stillunknown> uint i = FindFirstBit2x64(GetTrackBits(tile) * 0x101 & _reachable_tracks[dir]); <-- can this be range limited (i'm looking for ways to make (electric) trains are too close to another electric train and this is used to determine signal state)?
15:46:29  <stillunknown> *trains know that they are
15:46:55  <tamlin> MeusH: OK, if different vehicles are to be able to have different path-finding algo's, then indeed every single vehicle also need to know what algo it's currently using. Is there a byte that could be added for vehicles here? Mind you, I'm not convinced this is really optimal, or even if it can not be solved simply by vehicles _class_ (train, bus, ...).
15:47:09  <Richk67> signal gui has messed me up a bit... quite a few errors, and proving hard to resolve
15:47:58  <tamlin> Richk67: Please elaborate.
15:48:17  <tamlin> (I've been away for quite some time why I'd like to know what's been going on)
15:49:52  <Richk67> elaborate on what? why sig gui doesnt compile?   or about the IN?
15:52:43  <Richk67> glx: thanks... 4344 showed it had been replaced by _trackdelta[dir].x    passes that bit... now for next error (last)
15:56:30  <stillunknown> static const uint32 _reachable_tracks[4] = {
15:56:30  <stillunknown> 	0x10091009,
15:56:30  <stillunknown> 	0x00160016,
15:56:30  <stillunknown> 	0x05200520,
15:56:30  <stillunknown> 	0x2A002A00,
15:56:31  <stillunknown> }; <-- how can there only be 4 entries when there are six directions (the function gets called with the direction argument)?
15:57:49  <peter1138> there are only 4 exit directions
15:57:51  <peter1138> might be that?
15:59:42  <blathijs> yes
15:59:42  <blathijs> yist htath
15:59:53  <blathijs> yipes
16:00:02  <stillunknown> i can end a with a piece of track in any of the 6 directions
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16:00:13  <blathijs> dodgy ssh connection
16:00:13  <blathijs> I meant "it's that"
16:00:24  <peter1138> :)
16:00:40  <Richk67> still: but those 6 directions can only leave the tile by its 4 edges
16:01:11  <stillunknown> i'm such a newbie :-)
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16:02:20  <blathijs> Richk67: though that is the very thing causing those nasty 90 degree turns in tracks :-)
16:03:07  *** wolf^_ is now known as wolf^
16:03:22  <tamlin> Those aren't nasty, they are required to not have my trains make 200+ tiles detours. ;-)
16:03:37  <blathijs> They are ugly
16:03:39  <blathijs> IMHO ;-)
16:03:42  <tamlin> I agree.
16:04:39  <tamlin> I also think a train on its way to service depot should change its mind if it's about to pass another (player-owned) depot. I don't know, maybe that's already implemented.
16:04:39  <blathijs> The ugliest part is that those corners can be taken, but corners in the middle of a tile (ie crossing straight tracks) can not
16:04:41  <Richk67> great... auto completion compiles now... but doesnt work :(      bah! i hate trying to update patches :(
16:05:12  <blathijs> tamlin: train servicing is kinda broken by desing IMO
16:05:20  <blathijs> Richk67: autocompletion?
16:05:31  <tamlin> Richk67: If you like the patch enough, just rollback your whole tree to the date the patch was created.
16:05:39  <Richk67> signal gui ...
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16:09:31  <glx> blathijs: did you check NPFReverse?
16:09:33  <tamlin> I personally think it seems worth the effort, if it's what I think it is (a real GUI, a dialog or something, instead of just CTRL+clicking and hoping one remembers what all the signal types are).
16:10:09  <MeusH> be right back
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16:12:46  <MeusH> back
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16:31:24  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: ping
16:31:30  <MeusH> MiHaMiX: hey
16:31:37  <MeusH> have you read PM?
16:32:02  <MeusH> s/PM/priv
16:33:03  <MiHaMiX> MeusH: yes, but you didn't wrote a single line
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16:33:17  <MiHaMiX> MeusH: maybe you forgot to register?
16:33:25  <MeusH> oh
16:33:26  <MeusH> my
16:33:28  <MeusH> FUCK
16:33:57  * MeusH 's head dropped on keyboard and wrote some weird stuff
16:34:11  <MiHaMiX> /kick MeusH Don't swear
16:34:18  <MiHaMiX> :D
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16:34:44  <MeusH> \kick NickServ you puny bastard
16:34:54  <MeusH> w8
16:35:00  <MeusH> I hope it got logged
16:35:03  * MiHaMiX is waiting...
16:35:06  <MeusH> now, let me find logs directory
16:35:49  <MiHaMiX> bbl, dinner
16:36:19  <MeusH> ok
16:36:59  <MeusH> I sent you that thing
16:37:04  <MeusH> wait... I did not register again :##&^@%X
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16:38:57  <MeusH> my superb auto nickserv logger works just fine --___--
16:39:39  <Richk67> semi-success... auto completion works, but not in the "drag-direction"... does anyone know if that is how it is meant to work?
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16:46:39  <MeusH> so it autocompletes in all directions except desidered one?
16:47:31  <Richk67> no - it always picks a default direction for next signal... on horiz track, its always to right
16:49:06  <Richk67> i dont know whether this is the "correct" behaviour, or a bug
16:49:42  <tamlin> Seems like a bug, especially if [0] == "to right".
16:50:13  <Richk67> it depends what the original patch did when it was working
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16:56:22  <MeusH> RichK67: take a look at autorail tool
16:56:39  <MeusH> I've had to struggle that direction things with my tooltip patch
16:56:45  <stillunknown> uint i = FindFirstBit2x64(GetTrackBits(tile) * 0x101 & _reachable_tracks[dir]); <-- how can this "scan" more than one tile if only the current tile is given as input?
16:57:46  <Richk67> MeusH: im of a mind to ditch it. ive enough potential bugs in IN anyway, without trying to fix other's patches
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16:59:01  <test> hey
16:59:29  <test> Dark I have received your mail
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17:01:44  <stillunknown> ignore my question, something else does what i think it did
17:02:21  <Richk67> brb
17:04:34  <stillunknown> UpdateSignalsOnSegment <-- i've searched, but am unable to find this function, anyone know where it could be?
17:06:38  *** Born_Acorn [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:07:00  <tamlin> stillunknown: From a patch? Have you looked through the whole patch?
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17:07:36  <stillunknown> in my search i didn't realize that bool UpdateSignalsOnSegment meant it was a function decleration
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17:11:28  <KUDr> peter1138: ping
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17:13:09  <KUDr> <peter1138> is this level of control really needed? heh <--- dunno, i only don't want to implement there any limitations, so the morale lifetime of YAPF can be as long as possible
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17:14:51  <glx> stillunknown: the function you are looking for is in train_cmd.c
17:15:08  <stillunknown> does trackbits(any specs anywere) store what type or what train is on the track?
17:15:51  <stillunknown> i found what i really need, something to follow track, now to find a way to get the right information out of it :-)
17:15:58  <KUDr> stillunknown: afaik no, there was some hash container for that
17:18:09  <stillunknown> where could i possible get information about a train with only the tile as information?
17:19:17  <glx> VehicleFromPos I guess
17:20:46  <KUDr> probably. There is some global hash: _vehicle_position_hash
17:21:14  <KUDr> Yes, VehicleFromPos()
17:21:40  <stillunknown> now to look for a way to get the state of a tracktile
17:21:46  <KUDr> but it can also wagon i guess
17:21:59  <KUDr> state?
17:22:00  <glx> yes can be a wagon
17:22:32  <stillunknown> Can i differentiate between locs and trains as a whole?
17:23:42  <KUDr> IsFrontEngine() or look to power
17:23:43  <Vornicus> "locs"?
17:24:29  <KUDr> stillunknown: I have probably better idea how to implement your patch
17:24:46  <Vornicus> locomotives and non-locomotives in this game are differentiated only by their power.
17:25:06  <glx> no there's a sub-type too
17:25:11  <stillunknown> short for locomotives
17:25:28  <KUDr> 1) user would be able to use elrail locos aonly wne he delivers coal to power station
17:26:03  <KUDr> 2) nearest power station can remember how much coal was delivered by the player
17:26:26  <KUDr> 3) if no such power station, then acceleration will be like half
17:26:53  <blathijs> glx: no, I ran out of time...
17:27:10  <stillunknown> that's a nice addon, but i really want to do it
17:27:39  <glx> blathijs: btw there's currently a small conflict in it and I found a little error in my code
17:27:40  <stillunknown> it would make for very interresting gameplay (imo)
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17:28:08  <KUDr> stillunknown: but if you do it as I described, you don't need to look for nearby trains -> no performance hit
17:28:46  <KUDr> it is not easy to ask for all nearby tracks if there is train or not
17:29:03  <stillunknown> even if you haul 5000 tons of coal to a station, you're not going get several electric locomotives together in a short piece of track
17:29:16  <KUDr> so u can use power station as shared storage for all nearby trains
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17:29:18  <stillunknown> my holiday just started and i want to try something
17:29:45  <KUDr> ok
17:30:25  <stillunknown> also ones functions like this exist, it could potentially make for more nice addons
17:30:39  <stillunknown> like variable speeds based on distance of next train
17:30:59  <stillunknown> *also once functions
17:31:01  <KUDr> but it will be very slow
17:31:19  <stillunknown> not if you limit the amount of tiles it scans
17:31:21  <KUDr> its wasting of CPU
17:31:49  <stillunknown> but i will see how (un)efficient it is
17:31:56  <KUDr> but in rel life it depends on placement of trafo stations
17:32:09  <KUDr> not only on nearby trains
17:32:27  <stillunknown> true, but i have to start somewhere
17:32:41  <stillunknown> and some recognition of nearby trains is needed
17:32:45  <KUDr> so make new facility - trafo
17:32:53  <KUDr> and store power info there
17:32:59  <KUDr> it should be easier
17:33:09  <KUDr> and not so CPU consuming
17:33:35  <CIA-3> miham * r4410 /trunk/lang/ (french.txt hungarian.txt polish.txt):
17:33:35  <CIA-3> WebTranslator2 daily commit [2006-04-13]
17:33:35  <CIA-3> [hungarian] 6 strings changed by Miham
17:33:35  <CIA-3> [french] 21 strings changed by Belugas
17:33:35  <CIA-3> [polish] 151 strings changed, 8 strings fixed by Meush
17:33:36  <KUDr> or power station
17:33:47  <stillunknown> like a waypoint with a limited range that a train passes through and takes power from until it finds the next one?
17:33:58  <KUDr> maybe
17:34:19  <KUDr> or you must build power station nearby tracks to use maximum power
17:34:27  <KUDr> otherwise half
17:34:30  <KUDr> or so
17:34:58  <KUDr> it is simple and users will understand it
17:35:08  <KUDr> and can influence it
17:35:21  <KUDr> by building power stations
17:35:29  <KUDr> and feeding them
17:35:49  <stillunknown> realastic would be to have a trafo that can supply an x amount of power, maybe more if power station is near and devide that amongst the trains in the section
17:35:57  <KUDr> now the power station doesn't produce any usefull goods
17:36:08  <stillunknown> maybe even make power less as distance is greater
17:36:18  <KUDr> yes
17:36:43  * stillunknown is hoping trains are numbered
17:36:57  <KUDr> you can start with special waypoint type and then ask others to make newgrf for new facility
17:38:01  <KUDr> index is internal id, and unitnumber is what you see
17:38:26  <stillunknown> how am i going to deal with trains leaving the depot, they didn't pass a trafo
17:38:50  <KUDr> don't count passed trafos
17:38:56  <KUDr> look for nearest one
17:39:18  <KUDr> make container for trafos
17:39:38  <KUDr> and look for nearest - the same like cell phone does
17:39:47  <stillunknown> two things that i defininately don't know
17:40:01  <stillunknown> howto look for nearest efficiently
17:40:12  <stillunknown> what is a container in this example?
17:41:12  <KUDr> ah, make the hash for like supertile (16 x 16 tiles) and store trafos in that supertile as a list
17:41:29  <KUDr> then you need to visit max. 9 supertiles
17:41:43  <KUDr> this should work fine
17:41:46  <KUDr> and fast enough
17:42:06  <KUDr> but you should isolate such container by an interface
17:42:16  <KUDr> so you can remake it later
17:42:39  * stillunknown hopes anyone has used these supertiles, because this is all unknown to me
17:42:54  <KUDr> it is easy
17:43:02  <stillunknown> basicly search for 16x16 tiles with the train in the centre?
17:43:28  <KUDr> x = TileX(tile) & ~0x0F
17:43:35  <KUDr> y = TileY(tile) & ~0x0F
17:43:47  <KUDr> and you have super tile coords
17:44:03  <KUDr> then combine x and y to hash
17:44:21  <KUDr> and use existing hash container in queue.c
17:44:33  <tamlin> This should really be handled by C++ I think, and a supertile being created on-the-fly from requested coords.
17:44:38  <KUDr> one global variable for it
17:44:41  <stillunknown> what is ~15?
17:44:48  <tamlin> 0xf
17:45:01  <stillunknown> what does it mean
17:45:02  <tamlin> Think binary.
17:45:06  <stillunknown> i know it's 15
17:45:10  <stillunknown> it's hex
17:45:11  <tamlin> 0x0f =
17:45:19  <KUDr> you reset lowest 4 bits
17:45:35  <tamlin> = ~0xf0
17:45:36  <KUDr> or better could be x = TileX(tile) >> 4
17:45:55  <KUDr> then you discard those bits
17:46:20  <tamlin> It's simple bit-"magic". :-)
17:46:29  <KUDr> no magic
17:46:32  <KUDr> its easy
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17:46:45  <tamlin> I know, but for someone not knowing it it's "magic".
17:46:47  <stillunknown> you want the first 15 bits gone?
17:46:56  <stillunknown> 15 options i mean
17:47:11  <KUDr> yes, you make 16x16 supertiles by this
17:47:32  <stillunknown> what does TileX output?
17:47:36  <KUDr> and you only need to know how to use that Hash
17:47:41  <KUDr> but it is easy
17:48:06  <KUDr> uint TileX() - gives tile's X coord
17:48:27  <stillunknown> doesn't that make for huge supertiles?
17:48:33  <stillunknown> imagine a x coord of 300
17:48:35  <KUDr> no
17:48:37  <KUDr> for tiles
17:48:44  <tamlin> Basically, it caould be a simple as using an ubyte's upper 4 bits for y, and lower 4 bits as x.
17:48:57  <tamlin> 0-15 each
17:48:58  <KUDr> but if you >> 4 on it, you have supertile 16x16
17:49:12  <KUDr> it you do >> 5 you have supertile 32x32
17:49:14  <KUDr> and so on
17:49:19  <stillunknown> 256 >> 4 = 32
17:49:29  <KUDr> :)
17:49:35  <stillunknown> i don't see how a random input leads to a supertile?
17:49:46  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: are you still around?
17:49:49  <KUDr> but 16 different values will give you 1 same value
17:49:54  <tamlin> The input isn't random.
17:50:09  <stillunknown> aha
17:50:33  <KUDr> input is tile
17:50:35  <stillunknown> so i pass through every tile in the game to that?
17:50:43  <KUDr> and it has X and Y coords
17:50:50  <KUDr> they are not random
17:51:01  <KUDr> no
17:51:09  <KUDr> only engine tile
17:51:23  <KUDr> and you find nearest trafos
17:51:46  <stillunknown> i still need to compare it to other tiles with that hash
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17:51:55  <stillunknown> so how do i do that in a sensible way
17:52:00  <KUDr> no, you don't
17:52:25  <KUDr> in that supertile hash u will store the list of trafor in that supertile
17:53:01  <KUDr> in that trafo you will store what trains are powered by it
17:53:24  <tamlin> I could add another mathematical array traversing thing here, should we ever need to traverse more tiles than there are memory... :-)
17:53:30  <KUDr> so all nearby trains will share the nearest trafo
17:53:50  <stillunknown> don't i still have to have to determine the hash of the nearby tiles, otherwise i will never find out which tiles have a trafo
17:54:05  <stillunknown> and have to exclude nearby unconnected tracks
17:54:24  <KUDr> no, the trafo position will be stred in Trafo structure
17:54:38  <KUDr> Trafo structure will be item in the List
17:54:42  <stillunknown> let's say i have a hash for my train tile
17:54:47  <KUDr> List is item in the Hash
17:54:53  <stillunknown> that does me no good
17:55:08  <stillunknown> because i would still have to convert that somehow to useable information
17:55:12  <KUDr> so by tile of engine you determine which List is appropriate
17:55:27  <KUDr> and in that List you find what Trafo is there
17:55:45  <stillunknown> which would require using the hash to generate all tile info?
17:55:57  <KUDr> no
17:56:00  <KUDr> uhh
17:56:08  <KUDr> Hash is container here
17:56:12  <KUDr> not a function
17:56:13  <stillunknown> or is everything ingame stored in hashes?
17:56:18  <tamlin> I'd also like to add there _are_ no hashes involved here AFAIK. All is directly, i.e. O(1), adressable.
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17:56:53  <stillunknown> the only way i know would have the coordinates and check every tile if it contains a generator
17:57:06  <KUDr> no
17:57:15  <KUDr> only 9 supertiles
17:57:23  <KUDr> it is much much faster
17:57:37  <stillunknown> you mean store every generator by it's hash
17:57:55  <stillunknown> smart :-)
17:58:00  <KUDr> every generator has its coords X and Y
17:58:34  <stillunknown> but still that would mean every game has 16384 supertiles at most
17:58:36  <KUDr> you can stre that generator by hash_function(X >> 4 ^ Y >> 4)
17:58:37  <stillunknown> not 9
17:58:50  <KUDr> so you have resolution 16x16 tiles
17:59:15  <tamlin> KUDr: Uhhh, you might want to ckeck your parenthesis. :-)
17:59:35  <glx> tamlin: no precedence is ok
18:00:08  <KUDr> ok, so hash_function((X >> 4) ^ (Y >> 4))
18:00:10  <stillunknown> it's a xor that would return 0 if the right tile is chosen
18:00:46  <stillunknown> or does the ^ have more meanings?
18:00:53  <tamlin> glx: Might be, but I still think such an expression deserves parens to _really_ display what's intended. Remember, it's 10 yers down the road maintenance starts getting hairy.
18:00:58  <KUDr> the xor ^ should be replaced by somethin more sophisticated
18:01:34  <KUDr> hash_function(((X >> 4) << 16) | (Y >> 4))
18:01:40  <KUDr> or so
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18:02:34  <KUDr> then you have to search in 9 tiles
18:02:36  <tamlin> That looks like a Morton thing.
18:02:42  <KUDr> *supertiles
18:02:42  * stillunknown is confused about what this outputs and what the << 16 does
18:02:59  <KUDr> 1 is yours (where engine is)
18:03:06  <KUDr> and 8 neighbors
18:03:29  <KUDr> it makes no sense took elsewhere as it would be too far away
18:03:53  <stillunknown> could you explain that function as if i knew only logic and no syntax?
18:04:36  <tamlin> Think of it as a scaled "clock" with 8 directions.
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18:04:57  <stillunknown> variables are passed, X and Y, they are bitshifted to create hashes of the tile
18:04:57  <KUDr> you take X, ignore 4 lowest bits from it and combine it with Y (ignoring lowest 4 bits too)
18:05:10  <stillunknown> but the << 16?
18:05:25  <tamlin> Foreget about that for now.
18:05:29  <KUDr> it makes 32 bit number from it
18:05:45  <KUDr> and hash function will combine all bits somehow
18:06:09  <stillunknown> | implies a sum?
18:06:24  <tamlin> No. Bitwise OR.
18:06:24  <KUDr> or instead of << 16 could be like << MapMaxY()
18:07:00  <KUDr> oops
18:07:15  <KUDr> or instead of << 16 could be like << NumberOfBits(MapMaxY())
18:07:19  <KUDr> so
18:07:45  <stillunknown> as far as i understand you devide the map into 16x16 tiles, of which many can fit into a map, much more than 9
18:07:47  <KUDr> there is something like that but for MapMaxX
18:07:56  <KUDr> so u can use that
18:08:28  <tamlin> I think it's easier to explain like a clock with 8 positions. 0 is straight up. 1 is up-right. 2 = right. 4 = down. 6 = left...
18:08:40  <tamlin> It's the same idea.
18:09:09  <KUDr> <stillunknown> as far as i understand you devide the map into 16x16 tiles, of which many can fit into a map, much more than 9 <-- i really don't understand
18:09:30  <KUDr> tamlin: yes
18:09:32  <stillunknown> a supertile is 16x16 tiles
18:09:37  <KUDr> yes
18:09:49  <stillunknown> 9 super tiles implies a very small map
18:10:02  <KUDr> small part of map
18:10:04  <KUDr> yes
18:10:34  <KUDr> i assume that max trafo distance that makes any sense is 16 tiles
18:10:46  <stillunknown> but isn't it easier to store the hash for every trafo in an array
18:10:51  <tamlin> 16 is better to use, as it's 4 bits - a nybble. There is no power-of-two for 3.
18:10:53  <KUDr> if not, then extend it to 32x32
18:11:05  <stillunknown> then look if there is a trafo with the same hash as the train
18:12:09  <KUDr> <stillunknown> but isn't it easier to store the hash for every trafo in an array <-- hmm, hash is something what is used as index into array
18:12:20  <KUDr> so you don't need to do linear search
18:12:43  <KUDr> you access it directly
18:12:58  <KUDr> this is the magic of hashmap
18:13:08  <KUDr> which is called Hash in ottd
18:14:00  <stillunknown> on a 2048x2048 there are 128 x hashes possible and 128 y hashes
18:14:34  <KUDr> only 128x128 possible x,y coordinates
18:14:36  <stillunknown> how can they be stored by anything more efficient than the hash itself (which is an integer starting at 1)
18:14:48  <Vornicus> A "hash map" generally refers to a method of storing objects in bins by a semi-unique identifier.
18:14:50  <KUDr> but number of hashes is on you
18:15:18  <tamlin> A hash usually is a function of the data stored, often then modulo a prime to decide what bucket to put the data in. I think what you here call hash isn't has, but really an application of an array compression (or something) algo. Am I wrong?
18:15:39  <Vornicus> a hash for an object must be equal for all objects that compare equally and should be (but doesn't have to be) unequal for unequal objects.
18:16:08  <stillunknown> you only used the 9 supertiles only to know what is near and what is further away?
18:16:19  <KUDr> heh, try to explain him it in some simpler way
18:16:30  <Vornicus> Then you store objects in an array of bins (usually you have a prime number of bins, to minimize chunkiness) according to their hash number % the number of bins in the array.
18:17:05  <KUDr> brb
18:17:23  <Vornicus> So then when you go looking for a particular object, you figure out its hash number, then figure out what bin that hash number goes into, then iterate through the objects in that bin, comparing each object therein to the target.
18:17:38  <tamlin> Right. That's not what's used here, I'm quite certain.
18:18:17  <tamlin> Here we have an array that is simply indexed by reduced-precision x/y (e.g. >>4). AFAIK. I could be wrong.
18:18:20  <stillunknown> so basicly a filer which stores under a number which in some way can be related to input?
18:18:41  <Vornicus> Essentially, yeah.
18:18:56  <stillunknown> is there a sensible way to store all this information?
18:19:19  <tamlin> Absolutely. In fact, there are many ways. That's what makes it hard. :-)
18:19:58  <Vornicus> the hash code of an object can be stored but probably shouldn't be; the hash function should be fast, because it's used extremely often.
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18:20:24  <stillunknown> an array is useless unless i can number each transformer
18:20:55  <Vornicus> an array gives a natural numbering to whatever objects are stored therein.  The problem is that the objects themselves don't know their number.
18:21:10  <tamlin> stillunknown: Each element already has a "number" - their index. Their position in the array is _also_ a data arrier.
18:21:27  <tamlin> *carrier
18:21:50  <stillunknown> let's say i have two hashes, 32 and 64, where can i store them that would allow another entry with 32 and 64?
18:22:26  <Vornicus> Each item in the hash array is a bin - it can hold any number of objects.
18:23:37  <tamlin> Basically each "bucket" is a set - that usually is searched lineraly!
18:23:48  <Vornicus> yep.
18:23:54  <tamlin> That's why the number of buckets usually is a prime.
18:24:05  <KUDr> stillunknown: take it easy: hash map works as an array - you give it x, y coords of supertile and it return you your Supertile struct
18:24:30  <KUDr> but it stores Supertiles in more efficient way than array
18:24:34  <Vornicus> The reason hashmaps are so common is because they're capable of being implemented on things that you can't compare to each other.
18:24:50  <tamlin> KUDr: We're talking about how a hash set works generally. Not in OpenTTD. :-)
18:24:58  <KUDr> ok
18:26:00  <stillunknown> is there an easy way of expanding structs or does a hash map accept multiple structs to store?
18:26:23  <tamlin> Vornicus: We also shouldn't fail to mention the reason they *really* has become used is due to Java including them. Had Java not included has containers, still only people like us would know the names (byt then, we also know what they mean). :-)
18:26:38  <Vornicus> heh.
18:26:40  <Vornicus> point there.
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18:28:11  <tamlin> stillunknown: Yes: A has container by desinition needs to support "colliding" hash values for elements. That's why it needs "buckets" to lineraly search through - to find the exact match when there is a hash collision. GPERF is another matter though. ;-)
18:29:37  <stillunknown> maybe a good example of hash map in openttd, so i can "reverse engineer" the beheaviour
18:29:59  <KUDr> VehicleFromPos
18:31:35  <tamlin> Every supertile is a "bucket", where many vehicles can be at once.
18:32:14  <stillunknown> void *VehicleFromPos(TileIndex tile, void *data, VehicleFromPosProc *proc);
18:32:27  <stillunknown> what is input, what is output?
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18:32:48  <KUDr> input is tile
18:33:01  <KUDr> output is Vehicle*
18:33:21  <stillunknown> how do you know that?
18:33:30  <stillunknown> Vehicle*
18:33:37  <KUDr> look how it is used
18:33:41  <tamlin> You don't. The code is "bad".
18:33:57  <Richk67> its C - its like that
18:34:05  <tamlin> That function is really, truly, not possible to understand from its declaration.
18:34:44  <tamlin> It's in part an inherent trait of C, as Richk67 notes.
18:34:58  <stillunknown> void *HashStorage(X_hash,Y_hash) <-- what am i missing herr?
18:35:01  <Richk67> depends how familiar you are with OTTD functions... TileIndex tile is 99% of time input, name of function makes it obvious it will return Vehicle
18:35:15  <KUDr> input = tile and track
18:35:55  <tamlin> Richk67: I wrote that from a wider perspective - to being able to look at a function prototype (declaration) to know what it does.
18:36:30  <tamlin> Richk67: I didn't say it to put any dubts on OpenTTD.
18:36:44  * stillunknown doesn't know what the difference between input and output in such a decleration is
18:37:16  <Richk67> at least it doesnt say:   void *vfp (Ti t, void *d, vfp_proc *proc).... which would be *really* impossible to understand
18:37:20  <Vornicus> the trick with C is that often when you need a lot of output from a function you will pass it a pointer and then the function will dump its actual output to the pointer
18:37:52  <tamlin> Richk67: Sounds like something you recently encountered at work? ;-)
18:38:14  <Vornicus> the stdlib function strtol() and its friends do this, sorta; it returns the number it finds, and then one of its parameters is a place to put a pointer to the start of the rest of the string.
18:38:21  <Richk67> nah... i just know a few C coders who love keeping var names as short as possible.... like the compiler cares!
18:39:18  <stillunknown> let's say i want to input 4 things to store and output two of those if i give the first two, how do i do that?
18:39:58  <tamlin> Vornicus: Not to mention strstr (at least I think that's one of the functions) having a static (!) holding state. But yeah, C programs often have a pointer to an "out" struct. Good programs and libraries then also know about "const". ;->
18:41:59  <stillunknown> i think i know how to retrieve something from a hash map, but no clue how to store something
18:42:16  <Vornicus> Depends on the hash map.
18:42:38  <Vornicus> If this were C++, you'd be able to act like a hash map is an array of sorts.
18:43:10  <stillunknown> C++ is a supposedly broken by default language
18:43:35  <KUDr>  <stillunknown> C++ is a supposedly broken by default language <- what it does mean?
18:44:13  <tamlin> stillunknown: I'd reall want to see you say that in ##C++ on freenode. ;-P
18:44:30  <stillunknown> bad language, not to be used, once you can code in c++ you are ruined for life
18:44:37  <tamlin> (j/k)
18:44:41  <tamlin> Bullshit.
18:45:03  <KUDr> heh
18:45:15  <tamlin> C++ is perhaps _the_ most powerful and versatile language we have available currently.
18:45:15  <stillunknown> it's not my opinion
18:45:58  <stillunknown> but there are more than a few people who think c++ is broken(don't know them personally, don't know any coder personally for that matter)
18:45:58  <KUDr> stillunknown: tell it on ##C++
18:46:11  <tamlin> C++ is always a better C. I nowadays only write C for interfaces, but all implementation is C++ - simply 'cause it's better.
18:46:33  <tamlin> And faster, both for writing code and running it.
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18:46:58  <KUDr>  <tamlin> And faster.. <-- only when you know what you do
18:47:43  <tamlin> Indeed! I do however assume anyone writing code to know what they do (heck, even I use asm sometimes, when it's called for).
18:48:30  <stillunknown> void *Transformers(int X_Hash,int Y_Hash,int *Index);
18:48:38  <tamlin> But it's like C. Put a C programmer in a Java position, or a VB programmer in a C position, and I bet you'll see the most inefficient code to do the job. :-)
18:48:44  <stillunknown> what's the difference between a call to store or to retrieve?
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18:49:52  <tamlin> stillunknown: That function is indeed an example of a bad function exposed. You simply can't know, based on the function name and its signature.
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18:50:15  <stillunknown> void *Transformers(int X_Hash,int Y_Hash,int *Index); <-- has 2 inputs and 1 output
18:50:26  <stillunknown> but how do i call it to retrieve and how to store
18:50:47  <tamlin> No. It's got 2 outputs.
18:51:02  <stillunknown> void *Transformers(int *X_Hash,int *Y_Hash,int Index); <-- has 2 inputs and 1 output
18:51:07  <KUDr> int X_Hash,int Y_Hash ?
18:51:07  <stillunknown> this better?
18:51:08  <tamlin> One is the return value. The other is what Index points to.
18:51:26  <tamlin> OK, drop my comment then.
18:51:40  <tamlin> Now it's got 3 inputs and 1 output.
18:51:55  <stillunknown> i want to input two int's X_hash and Y_hash
18:52:02  <stillunknown> and get one int Index
18:52:03  <KUDr> why?
18:52:07  <tamlin> Actually, it's got *potentially* three inputs, but 4 (!) outputs.
18:52:13  <KUDr> they should produce one hash
18:52:30  <KUDr> so use x and y
18:52:41  <KUDr> and internally calc one hash from it
18:52:53  <tamlin> Wasn't Transformers a Japanese cartoon idea? ;-)
18:52:58  <KUDr> as you must compare x, y in final find
18:52:58  <stillunknown> (hashx+hashy = hashy + hashx)?
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18:53:26  <KUDr> hmm
18:53:44  <stillunknown> 32 + 64 = 96, but 64 + 32 = 96, not unique
18:53:46  <KUDr> (hashx+hashy = hashy + hashx)? <- WTF?
18:54:02  <KUDr> you don't need unique hash
18:54:10  <KUDr> it should be semiunique
18:54:38  <KUDr> and final search is made by comparing x and y
18:54:45  <KUDr> in a list
18:55:02  <KUDr> but it is inside Hash_... functions
18:55:04  <Vornicus> The only absolute constraint on hashes is that things that would be equal to one another must have equal hashes.
18:55:11  <KUDr> you don't need to care about it
18:55:12  <stillunknown> only thing i can think of is, that you use the first bits in the hash for x and the last for y
18:55:51  <KUDr> you can also do X ^ Y
18:55:58  <KUDr> or anything like that
18:56:11  <KUDr> it will be in a hash calc function
18:56:28  <KUDr> but item needs key
18:56:35  <KUDr> that must be unique
18:56:51  <KUDr> and in this case the key is x and y
18:56:54  <stillunknown> X ^ Y != Y ^ X ?
18:56:58  <SimonRC> Hashes work fine even if everything has the same hash, just a bit slow, that's all.
18:56:59  <KUDr> two values
18:57:08  <SimonRC> stillunknown: it doesn;t mater
18:57:16  <KUDr> exactly
18:57:28  <SimonRC> Surely every programmer konws that xor is commutative
18:57:42  <KUDr> (X ^ Y != Y ^ X) = false
18:57:50  <SimonRC> a good hash function produces scattered results, quickly.
18:58:05  <KUDr> yes
18:58:09  <Noldo> a bit slow?
18:58:14  <stillunknown> so let's say i have supertile (12,16), i don't want the same hash for that as (16,12)
18:58:29  <KUDr> why?
18:58:36  <KUDr> you should not care
18:58:50  <KUDr> the hash map will give you 12,16
18:58:50  <stillunknown> that hash is the only id i have
18:59:03  <KUDr> you must give it x and y
18:59:14  <KUDr> and will have *Trafos
18:59:24  <KUDr> no
18:59:28  <KUDr> id is x,y
18:59:34  <KUDr> it is called key
18:59:49  <KUDr> and hash map works with keys
18:59:58  <KUDr> and hast is used internally only
19:00:11  <KUDr> you don't care a much about it
19:00:20  <stillunknown> sorry for asking this, but the fastest way would probably be to give an example of how to declare, store and recieve
19:00:44  <stillunknown> (then i will hopefully understand how it works)
19:00:53  <KUDr> hmm
19:01:13  <KUDr> Set(int x, int y, Trafos *t)
19:01:30  <KUDr> Trafos* Get(x, y)
19:02:03  <KUDr> Trafos* Get(int x, int y)
19:02:26  <stillunknown> shouldn't there be a decleration of some kind?
19:02:26  <KUDr> this is all
19:02:44  <KUDr> and internal implementation should use Hash map
19:03:36  <KUDr> You init your Hash structure (define hash_calc_func callback
19:03:40  <KUDr> and go
19:03:42  <tamlin> Just coming to think of it - how is SVN as of today? Could I update and expect it to not crash, or should I grab a label?
19:04:09  <KUDr> tamlin: try /branch/yapf/
19:04:19  <KUDr> and play with ships
19:04:26  <KUDr> i need testers
19:04:50  <tamlin> It's TRUNK besides your changes?
19:04:55  <KUDr> set the yapf type (1..4) described in yapf.txt
19:05:01  *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@] has quit []
19:05:33  <KUDr> its TRUNK plus my changes
19:05:41  <tamlin> What is "yapf"? Yet Another Plunker Flupper?
19:05:51  <KUDr> yes :)
19:05:55  <KUDr> pathfinder
19:05:59  <tamlin> Ah!
19:06:02  <KUDr> now for ships only
19:06:11  <tamlin> About time.
19:06:17  <KUDr> i am working on RV YAPF now
19:06:20  <tamlin> Is it a variation of A*?
19:06:26  <KUDr> yes
19:06:30  <izhirahider> yet another pathetic failure :)
19:06:34  <KUDr> but 5x faster than NPF
19:06:38  <tamlin> lol
19:06:50  <KUDr> <izhirahider> : YES!
19:06:52  <tamlin> I like getting failures 5x faster.
19:07:00  <KUDr> hehe
19:07:11  <tamlin> Makes them 50x faster to debug.
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19:07:28  <hylje> routine failur
19:07:28  <hylje> e
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19:16:19  <stillunknown> where are containers declared/created?
19:16:35  <KUDr> queue.h/c
19:16:37  <tamlin> At point of declaration/definition.
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19:17:54  <stillunknown> Depot's and waypoints, have a special thing of some kind (Depot and Waypoint), what exactly are they?
19:18:52  <KUDr> docs/landscape_grid.html + docs/landscape.html
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19:20:09  <Sacro> evening all
19:20:22  <KUDr> ge
19:21:50  <peter1138> hi
19:22:27  <tamlin> KUDr: I just realized I didn't have any SVN client binaries on this box. Looking at d/l'ing some precompiled binraies (scary, I know), I found I needed to even get an updated sleepycat BDB. Now this is starting to look sinister, and I'm alsmost starting to long back for CVS.
19:23:13  <KUDr> hmm
19:23:38  <Noldo> tamlin: what distro is that sick?
19:23:56  <peter1138> heh, that's only for the svn server
19:38:39  <peter1138>
19:38:50  <peter1138> err
19:38:58  <peter1138> didn't mean to paste that
19:39:37  <Noldo> well I opened it anyway
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19:48:11  <stillunknown> 	int totalpower; /// total power available at transformer
19:48:11  <stillunknown>
19:48:11  <stillunknown> 	int engines; /// number of engines using this transformer
19:48:11  <stillunknown>
19:48:11  <stillunknown> 	int powerperengine = totalpower / engines; /// power per engine
19:48:27  <stillunknown> if i define this inside a struct
19:48:58  <Vornicus> Inaccurate.  An engine will pull as much power from the grid as it needs; in yours, the slowest electric and the fastest will be pulling the same number of watts.
19:49:16  <peter1138> the third line is invalid, heh
19:49:27  <stillunknown> that ansers my question
19:49:39  <hylje> you implementing power usage w/ eltrains+
19:50:01  <stillunknown> trying with the very limited knowledge i have
19:56:01  <stillunknown> @Vornicus: if only an x amount is available, then it will be shared, result being less performance
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20:03:56  <stillunknown> static inline bool IsRailWaypoint(TileIndex tile)
20:03:56  <stillunknown> {
20:03:56  <stillunknown> 	return (_m[tile].m5 & 0xFC) == 0xC4;
20:03:56  <stillunknown> }
20:04:17  <stillunknown> i know this is direct map acces, but what is the & 0xFC?
20:04:28  <glx> a mask
20:05:00  <glx> check docs/landscape.html to see why this mask is used
20:06:03  <stillunknown> does the & imply a comparison(i find it very strange in combination with a return)
20:06:33  <peter1138> no, it states an and
20:06:47  <peter1138> the == is a comparison
20:07:11  <stillunknown> and it returns 1 if true?
20:07:27  <glx> it returns nn 0 if true
20:07:32  <glx> *non
20:07:51  <peter1138> it returns true if m5 & 0xFC equals 0xC4. true happens to be 1
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20:08:36  <stillunknown> 0xFC != 0xC4
20:09:05  <KUDr> heh
20:09:19  <stillunknown> or is the & another kind than i expect
20:09:24  <KUDr> <stillunknown>: it is relly hard to work with you
20:09:27  <glx> but something & 0xFC can be == 0xC4
20:09:30  <peter1138> & is not &&
20:09:54  <peter1138> & is bitwise and, && is logical and
20:10:18  <glx> 0xC6 & 0xFC == 0xC4
20:10:47  <glx> same for 0xC5 , 0xC4 and 0xC3
20:11:01  <glx> oups 0xC7 no 0xC3
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20:12:13  <stillunknown> makes me wonder why hex is used if all comparisons are binary
20:12:36  <glx> because it's easier to write hex than binary
20:12:45  <hylje> and hex is closer to sex
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20:14:23  * stillunknown is going to find some docs on this, before i make everyone crazy :-)
20:14:40  <glx> good idea :)
20:16:15  <stillunknown> you should all know by now that i'm not a programmer, just someone with an interest
20:17:27  <Belugas> interest is good, keeps you young :)  Drives the motor for advancing in knowledge!
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20:18:02  <stillunknown> i like to think i'm still young
20:18:30  <stillunknown> 19 is not exactly old :-)
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20:19:36  <Belugas> NO, IT'S NOT OLD AT ALL!!!!!
20:19:41  <Belugas> grrrrr...
20:19:51  <stillunknown> bad joke?
20:20:04  <Belugas> I wish I could be 19 again, but with the knowledge I have right now :)
20:20:12  <Belugas> i'm 42 :(
20:20:16  <Belugas> THAT's OLD
20:20:17  * KUDr wants to be 19
20:21:02  <stillunknown> the only thing i ever learnt to do in this area is bash scripting, which makes me understand only a fraction of c syntax
20:21:35  <stillunknown> but learning while doing seems the only way for me to get better at this sort of thing
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20:27:33  <stillunknown> if (flags & DC_EXEC) <-- i've seen than once and don't know what it does
20:28:10  <stillunknown> *more than once
20:28:25  <glx> just check if bit DC_EXEC is set in flags
20:30:16  <stillunknown> and DC_EXEC is? (just tell me when i get to anoying to bear)
20:31:11  <glx> DC_EXEC is 1U<<something (I don't have the eyes on code for now)
20:39:07  <stillunknown> strange, i thought m5 was a byte
20:39:21  <stillunknown> _m[t].m5 = RAIL_TYPE_DEPOT_WAYPOINT | RAIL_SUBTYPE_WAYPOINT | a;
20:39:41  <glx> no problem with that
20:40:02  <glx> you can set a byte like that : b = 11|0001|01
20:40:27  <glx> hmm I made a mistake :)
20:41:11  <glx> b = 11000000 | 00000100 | 00000001 = 11000101
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20:48:18  <tamlin> It still displays how much whe have "someone" to thank for the rev.eng., and how much it leaks through.
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20:53:52  <Sacro> hmm, i seem to be quite popular in the dev forum
20:54:25  <MeusH> hey Sacro
20:54:27  <MeusH> welcome back :)
20:54:34  <MeusH> yes you are, indeed
20:58:13  <Sacro> i need my own system back before i can do much really
20:58:37  <Sacro> MeusH: thanks, though ive hardly been away
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21:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think making elrails dependent on power stations needs some serious work before...
21:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> you need an initial output of power, to get even started...
21:03:33  <KUDr> <Eddi|zuHause2>: it can be so, that without it you must buy it
21:03:42  <KUDr> or will have limited acceleration
21:03:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> you need more than just coal plants, like oil plants and stuff (maybe nuclear and solar later?)
21:04:00  <MeusH> and what would you transport to/from solar?
21:04:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> you need power lines
21:04:35  <KUDr> no transport
21:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> and you need transformator stations ("Umspannwerke"), probably part of new stations or depot rewrite
21:05:11  <KUDr> no, only new facility
21:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> well... if you do it, do it completely ;)
21:05:47  *** Tron [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> at the same point, one can probably introduce water/coal (later fuel) refilling devices at stations
21:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> again, this is probably best as part of newstations
21:08:01  <KUDr> maybe
21:08:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> depots should be a subclass of stations, IMHO
21:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> one, that does not accept any goods
21:08:53  <MeusH> EDDI|zuHause2 and KUDr: the best way is to have station with depot parameter. This would i.e. allow railway>monorail>maglev autoreplacement
21:09:07  <MeusH> It would be realistic, too
21:09:16  <KUDr> yes
21:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, that is about what i meant
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21:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> with such combined stations/depots, one could start developing dynamic train consistence
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21:11:03  *** DaleStan_ is now known as DaleStan
21:11:14  <DaleStan> Why is unstickied?
21:19:28  *** Richk67 [n=RichK67@] has joined #openttd
21:19:47  <Richk67> hi all
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21:26:11  <Sacro> hi Richk67
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21:28:08  <Richk67> sacro!!
21:28:15  <Sacro> yeah :) tis me
21:28:29  <Richk67> any chance of an update to your patch for the Mini IN??? :)
21:28:30  <MeusH> Sacro: now he will ask you about updating the patch
21:28:34  <Richk67> lol
21:28:35  <MeusH> ^ YEAH :D
21:28:42  <Sacro> which patch?
21:28:51  <Richk67> oh god, am i that predictable ;)
21:28:58  <Sacro> yes :)
21:29:04  <MeusH> aircraft queueing?
21:29:15  <Sacro> i have nfi about that patch
21:29:15  <Richk67> thats cobra for that one
21:29:17  <MeusH> this one may collide with new airports
21:32:26  <Sacro> so, which patch am i being asked about?
21:32:35  <Richk67> its the signal gui auto completion patch - ive tried to integrate it into the mini IN... can you look at what ive done, and see if you think its correct.... it only seems to autocomplete in one direction along the rails, rather than the direction of the drag
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21:32:59  <Sacro> yeah, it does +x and +y, but not -x and -y
21:33:16  <Sacro> the old IN signal gui patch worked though AFAIK
21:33:17  <Richk67> oh, in that case ive probably got it working oj
21:33:20  <Richk67> ok even
21:33:45  <Richk67> i reused the old IN patch, but it needed a *lot* of updating
21:33:53  <Sacro> all i did was copy paste it into the latest SVN and checked it compiled ok
21:34:38  <Richk67> quite a few functions have been renamed/removed... _railbit was a pig to replace (now _trackdelta)
21:38:15  <Richk67> for anyone who wants the latest mini IN... just posted R4410IN
21:38:46  <Sacro> i think i might download it
21:38:57  <Sacro> and bug people for a R4410IN server
21:40:38  <Richk67> im really happy with the new Mini IN... i didnt care much for the old R3464IN... terrain was average IMO, and i missed lots of features that are either now in trunk, or in new patches... :)
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21:41:43  <Sacro> this one is looking great
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21:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> i might try the new IN... some changes yesterday really broke the one i got last :p
21:42:01  <Richk67> hopefully (soon), the Mini IN will be added to the compile farm nightly builds, so there will be a multi-platform Mini IN available nightly :)
21:42:13  <Sacro> oooh nice
21:42:58  <Sacro> hehehehehe
21:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> how do i get TortoiseSVN to just undo one local patch, and leave the other ones untouched?
21:44:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> currently, i have to undo all changes, and then remember which patches i applied
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21:44:49  <Richk67> hmm... dunno - i would love to know though
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21:45:38  <Rubidium> make the invert of the patch and apply that (should be possible to make from the patch alone, though I do not know of an application that does that for you)
21:46:11  <blathijs> Rubidium: it's called "patch -r"
21:46:21  <Richk67> hmm... Mini IN the mother of all patches ;)    515kb!
21:46:28  <blathijs> oh wait, windows system :-)
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21:46:41  <MeusH> congrats Richk67
21:46:43  <Sacro> blathijs, Rubidium: cygwin
21:46:54  * MeusH thinks about his tooltip measurement
21:47:39  <Richk67> MeusH: that would be really nice, but i fear it is a *lot* of work... the conflicts were big and involved
21:47:53  <MeusH> hmm
21:48:07  <MeusH> I think I may also begin it from scratch
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21:48:25  <Richk67> may be more stable that way
21:49:11  <MeusH> Richk67, do you have any idea of placement of the measurement?
21:49:27  <MeusH> tooltip is good, but sometimes letters get out of it
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21:49:38  <MeusH> and it is randomly flickering from time to time
21:50:46  <MeusH> I thought about money/date field - it would be overwritten with measurement when holding shift
21:51:32  <Richk67> hmm... dont know about placement - just about wherever you put it, it will be wrong for someone
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21:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> what does this thing measure?
21:53:30  <Richk67> how about re-use the transparent background text feature for network messages, and have it appear above the info bar at bottom of screen (but transparent)
21:54:01  <Richk67> you then shouldnt have it flicker, as it will be disconnected from mouse movement
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21:55:23  <Richk67> eddi - just about anything that is dragable - length of rails, area for destroy tool, etc.
21:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> how about placing some text like the buy/sell/income/transfer/whatever animation, just not animated?
21:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> just above the mouse cursor?
21:57:49  <Richk67> thats what it does atm... but it has problems with flickering, and placement
21:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> intresting...
21:58:28  <Richk67> MeusH: ping
21:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> flickering is maybe caused by something drawn above it?
21:59:09  <MeusH> Richk67: pong
21:59:21  <Richk67> MeusH: just had a thought - how about have the tool auto-calculate cost as well, and display that
21:59:28  <MeusH> Richk67: great idea
21:59:38  <MeusH> about positioning
21:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> that should not be too hard ;)
22:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> just query the command costs ;)
22:00:01  <MeusH> about auto calculating - I was testing it but it was deadly when building things like tunnels
22:00:08  <MeusH> it tries to build a tunnel every tick
22:00:25  <Richk67> one thing i hate about current SHIFT function is to get the cost of a tunnel, you hold SHIFT, then have to end the tunnel... i want to see cost without having to release mouse
22:00:27  <Richk67> ah
22:00:27  <MeusH> if tunnel is >50 tiles long, even our computers go slowly
22:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe you should cache such calculations?
22:01:23  <MeusH> Richk67: interested in bugfixing terragenesis?
22:01:30  <MeusH> I have just downloaded your mini IN
22:01:46  <Richk67> what is wrong ... (oh dear, sounds bad)
22:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> and only recalculate, if the cursor actually leaves the tile?
22:02:39  <MeusH> Generating random arctic map
22:02:56  <Richk67> what seed?
22:02:58  <MeusH> 512x256, smooth corners, hilly or mountanous
22:03:01  <MeusH> uhh
22:03:05  <MeusH> any?
22:03:09  <MeusH> wait
22:03:15  <MeusH> I'll write it first
22:03:39  <MeusH> anyway, there are very few snowy areas, which are completly covered with forests
22:04:05  <MeusH> also, if there are no forestes on the map (arctic, very flat), there should be no paper mills and printing works, too
22:04:35  <Richk67> good idea on forests
22:04:48  <MeusH> You should check all industries that way
22:05:29  <Richk67> oh - if you get a strange map, abandon game, and go into ScenGen... the random land option will then show you what seed you used
22:05:45  <MeusH> okay
22:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe you should be able to get that through console ;)
22:06:34  <MeusH> also a good idea
22:07:27  <Richk67> yeah - good idea
22:07:46  <Richk67> (i have no idea how, but its a good idea ;) )
22:08:20  <Richk67> i may add the random seed to the savegame, so it can be queried later
22:08:36  *** Elshar [] has joined #openttd
22:08:56  <MeusH> RichK67: devs won't like it
22:09:25  <MeusH> let's hope you can add that feature later, when your patch gets merged
22:09:25  *** fusey [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
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22:10:09  <Richk67> if i can justify it, devs will be fine... certainly in Mini IN, thats *my* baby ;)
22:10:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think, before you can commit the terragenesis, you have to reduce the number of cities/industries placed
22:10:58  <Richk67> eddi - it is precisely the same as old OTTD...
22:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it is not!
22:11:12  *** jong [] has joined #openttd
22:11:27  <Richk67> lol - tis too :)    i havent touched those parts of the routine
22:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> that does not matter, it is more ;)
22:11:44  *** Meznev [] has quit [Connection timed out]
22:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> i had to reduce from medium to few to get a reasonable density of cities
22:12:16  <Richk67> lol - check out 256x256 on Normal, Normal... you will find 8 coal, 10 farms, etc...
22:13:35  <Darkvater> 13:42 <@peter1138> Darkvater: greek / russian... could we provide a method to load an alternate graphics file containing their characters?
22:13:50  <Darkvater> if they make the grf file, it's only a matter of putting it in the newgrf section
22:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, i never seem to get actually _small_ towns anymore (with like 3 houses)
22:14:13  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: ping
22:15:00  * Richk67 shrugs... not my fault, guv ;)
22:15:08  <Richk67> at least, i dont think so
22:15:17  <Richk67> you're getting me worried now
22:15:31  <Darkvater> damn you guys chat too much
22:15:37  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: PM
22:15:41  * Darkvater gives up on reading back
22:16:23  <Richk67> hi ... gas bag here ;)
22:17:05  <Richk67> eddi: 128x128, temp, flat, normal, normal. old:11 towns, TGP: 11 towns
22:19:56  <MeusH> Richk67: one more bug
22:20:01  <MeusH> with speedsignals
22:20:16  <MeusH> *speedsigns
22:20:19  <Richk67> fire away
22:20:29  <MeusH> you can't build speedsign on junction, but you can build junction on speedsign
22:20:43  <Richk67> good one
22:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway... maybe it is subjective... but it feels more
22:21:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> especially with industries
22:22:06  <Richk67> eddi: the only change i did to any generation quantities is to reduce antennas from 40 @ 256x256 to 15. for some reason, i think old system was failing to place some of them, but it has no problem on TGP
22:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe i just got oddly high random numbers ;)
22:24:13  <Richk67> on a big map, >=1024, industries appeared like a plague across the map... but its to do with the scaling formula - i think it needs to be less frequent at higher map sizes
22:24:51  <Richk67> but its not TGP causing it - its perhaps more is expected of the nicer map
22:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe that is the problem ;)
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22:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> nuber of industries should scale with map area
22:27:49  <Richk67> they all do: ScaleByMapSize(n)
22:27:56  <Richk67> ( n )
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22:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe just the random spread has to be reduced?
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22:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> wether it is your "fault" or not... i believe those numbers need a little balancing
22:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> and the cities/industries list lack the number of items contained in it...
22:35:13  <Richk67> i agree - it need rebalancing... but its quite subjective. some people want a lot, others almost none
22:36:03  <Richk67> im considering going to a really customisable system: you select the number of towns, or perhaps a range, rather than "low/normal/high"
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22:39:14  * Sacro2 sits and plots the downfall
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22:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> no... too many options are not good
22:40:18  <Darkvater> agree with eddi here
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22:40:31  <MeusH> we already have too many options
22:40:35  <Darkvater> and thus I offski :)
22:40:35  <Darkvater> gn
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22:41:22  <Richk67> hmm... ill just have to get the balance "right" then... and then dig my heels in ;)
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22:48:08  <MeusH> wow
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22:48:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> hmzz... the pillars of high bridges are clearly not compatible with newbridges
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22:48:26  <MeusH> tooltips patch survived, there were only small problems with updating
22:48:32  <MeusH> hello CobraA1
22:48:42  <Richk67> lol :)
22:48:45  <MeusH> Richk67 will ask you....
22:48:48  <Richk67> im saying nothing ;)
22:48:58  <MeusH> yes you are
22:49:21  <Richk67> MeusH: is your patch uploaded? can i grab it, or do you want to PM it
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22:54:22  <Born_Acorn> purdy
22:55:38  <Richk67_> ouch... that was a nasty kick
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22:56:20  <Sacro> shouldnt have cliecked that one...
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22:57:04  <Richk67_> hmm... nickserv not responding
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23:04:54  <Born_Acorn> aaaand again.
23:07:14  <^Cartman^> LOL
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23:09:02  <^Cartman^> Yeah
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23:11:35  <MeusH> death time
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23:13:12  <Vornicus> You think it was bad in here, imagine it in one of the channels with 500.
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23:15:12  <MeusH> what a mess
23:15:26  <MeusH> so, it's great we're not >500 channel :)
23:15:40  <MeusH> by the way, most people sleep now, so that's no problem for them
23:15:43  <MeusH> just a mess in logs
23:18:23  <izhirahider> heh, there was a split?
23:18:32  <izhirahider> I'm ignoring joins/parts :)
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23:26:08  <MeusH> yeah
23:26:18  <UnderBuilder> what?
23:26:19  <MeusH> ton of these messages
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23:43:25  <UnderBuilder> zzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzz.... #openttd is getting bored
23:44:16  <tokai> then watch tv. simple.
23:44:23  <UnderBuilder> lol
23:45:01  <tokai> or do some coding like a real man (or woman, dunno) :)
23:45:23  *** Tobin [] has quit []
23:45:30  <UnderBuilder> I don't know too many programation languages
23:45:52  <tokai> c is enough. u can do everything with it.
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23:47:49  <UnderBuilder> I don't have knowledges on C, but I will learn sometime
23:48:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> starting to learn programming by learning C is really bad
23:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> C is a real mess
23:48:55  <UnderBuilder> the first programming language that I know was qbasic
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23:49:06  <UnderBuilder> I made silly games with that
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23:49:27  <izhirahider> I know a lot of C, my problem is to aprehend what's being done in such a complex project like openttd in a scoop
23:49:30  * tokai started with good old basic too (first amigabasic, then blitzbasic.. and later c.. and now still c;)
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23:50:15  <UnderBuilder> I have Microsofy Visual Studios installed in my PC
23:50:15  <tokai> c roxx as long you can use the right apis:)
23:51:55  <stillunknown> does table/strings.h (generated from english.txt i think) need a specific order?
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23:53:07  <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2668: error: redeclaration of enumerator `LANGUAGE_PACK_IDENT'
23:53:07  <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2668: error: previous definition of 'LANGUAGE_PACK_IDENT' was he
23:53:07  <stillunknown> re
23:53:07  <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2669: error: redeclaration of enumerator `LANGUAGE_PACK_VERSION'
23:53:07  <stillunknown> table/strings.h:2669: error: previous definition of 'LANGUAGE_PACK_VERSION' was
23:53:08  <stillunknown> here
23:53:53  <stillunknown> and i get a lot of those (i added two strings, even reverted to old lang files to see if same thing happened)
23:55:16  <izhirahider> did you forgot to remove a ')'Â?
23:56:21  <glx> stillunknown: where did you added these 2 strings?
23:57:16  <UnderBuilder> I want to learn C :(, but probably that will happen later :)
23:57:35  <stillunknown> i added them to command.c
23:58:03  <stillunknown> no, rail_gui.c
23:58:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> stillunknown: messed up with the #ifdef wrap around the file?
23:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> the message looks like the file was included several times
23:59:15  <glx> ho yeah Eddi|zuHause2 is right
23:59:33  <stillunknown> the only thing i did was make two new files
23:59:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> (which is only one of the parts where C is messy)

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