Log for #openttd on 18th April 2006:
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00:00:56  <norbert79> good night
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05:16:16  <CIA-3> celestar * r4463 /trunk/ (ai/trolly/trolly.c newgrf.c settings_gui.c): -Codechange. Include vehicle.h directly instead of implicitly via station.h in a number of source files
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05:54:04  <Naksu>
05:59:13  <Naksu> ottd should have something like that
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06:06:06  <peter1138> :(
06:07:34  <Naksu> there should be a school for writing bad code
06:09:02  <Naksu> since bad code will be written anyways, people should be told how to write it
06:09:21  <Naksu> like, if you're going to fail, at least fail with style
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06:15:28  <XeryusTC>
06:21:16  <Naksu> makes my eyes bleed
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06:41:02  <Celestar> peter1138: you around?
06:42:17  <CIA-3> celestar * r4464 /trunk/waypoint.c: -Codechange: Oops, forgot one file in last commit
06:44:25  <peter1138> yes
06:44:51  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: _
06:45:04  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: what's your problem with translator2?
06:45:47  <Celestar> peter1138: RFC for diff (DCC)
06:48:25  <Celestar> I like WT2, apart from the percent bars :P
06:49:44  <peter1138> the huge bold text on the front screen is hard to read, though
06:50:19  <Celestar> and there is some problem with the menu bar on KHTML-based browsers.
06:50:36  <Naksu> MiHaMiX: well
06:50:42  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: menu is a 3-rd party code from
06:51:00  <Naksu> the text is all in italics
06:51:03  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: ok, i'll make the letters smaller
06:51:18  <Celestar> MiHaMiX: tell them that they suck :P
06:51:28  <Naksu> but then again
06:51:31  <Celestar> menu only works if main window is scrolled fully up.
06:51:41  <Naksu> i'm not one of those people who have to use the translator
06:51:46  <Celestar> <= this bug report sucks
06:52:18  <Naksu> haha
06:53:37  <Naksu>
06:53:42  <Naksu> "Patch to be proofread"
06:55:48  <Celestar> well, it IS a patch to be proofread
06:57:05  <Naksu> well, it's not really the type of change that warrants a patch :)
06:57:39  <Naksu> or a proofreading
06:57:49  <Celestar> well I guess I'll apply it anyways :)
06:57:51  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: is it better now? :)
06:58:10  <Naksu> yes
06:58:19  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: and now? :)
06:58:34  <Naksu> even better
06:58:36  <MiHaMiX> ok.
06:58:47  <MiHaMiX> Naksu: thanks for the suggestions
06:58:50  <Celestar> MUCH better :)
06:59:24  <Celestar> <= any ideas?
07:00:37  <Naksu> Celestar: of course, your proofreading process might involve actually checking if the issue exists
07:00:47  <Celestar> it does
07:00:50  <Naksu> instead of just proofreading the patch
07:01:06  <Celestar> er what?
07:01:31  <peter1138> er
07:01:46  <peter1138> you know we're also using the tracker as a place to contribute user patches...
07:01:51  <peter1138> and that is a user patch...
07:01:55  <Naksu> yes
07:01:58  <Naksu> i know
07:02:35  <Naksu> but i assumed that proofreading and confirming the issue are two separate stages
07:02:59  <Celestar> the "issue" is that no one needs the variable in question
07:06:57  <Celestar> er is it me or is there something broken with aircraft in general :o
07:10:48  <Naksu> depends. is the aircraft landing finite state machine thingy in there?
07:13:51  <Celestar> hm ..
07:13:59  <Celestar> only in this one savegame there's a problem :o
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07:14:24  <Celestar> peter1138: what about my diff now?
07:16:49  <Naksu> Celestar: maybe the savegame is corrupted?
07:18:33  <Celestar> yes
07:19:28  <Naksu> i wonder if there's a prize i can win for stating the obvious
07:19:36  <Celestar> ^^
07:20:15  <peter1138> Celestar: looks ok
07:20:39  <CIA-3> celestar * r4465 /trunk/aircraft_cmd.c: -Codechange (FS#60): Remove a variable no one really needs. (DaleStan)
07:20:47  <peter1138> Celestar: < dynamic
07:21:15  <Celestar> not found :(
07:21:23  <peter1138> i have an idea
07:21:30  <peter1138> i shall upload the file o_O
07:21:39  <peter1138> there
07:21:47  <Celestar> ah :)
07:22:36  <Celestar> looks nice :)
07:23:04  <Celestar> if (i < 256) <= please replace magic number by enum or something :)
07:23:28  <Naksu> since i'm already in "stating the obvious" business i might go as far as to note that perhaps there's some validity in the bug report and there's a bug for you to fix in the error handling
07:24:19  <Celestar> peter1138:  in AllocateSpecToStation, why not move the whole "if i < 256" block into the for loop?
07:25:15  <Celestar> peter1138: and final question, if a game is abandoned, will all the Specs be removed?
07:26:03  <DaleStan> So, I'm curious, Naksu. What would you have called FS#60?
07:26:24  <peter1138> 1) because when i'd need special code to handle the case of the first allocation
07:26:37  <Celestar> DaleStan: hi :)
07:26:40  <peter1138> 2) no. afaik there is no provision for unloading game data
07:26:53  <Celestar> peter1138: 1) good reason
07:27:08  <Celestar> peter1138: 2) so we leak memory when starting a new game?
07:27:46  <peter1138> looks like it :(
07:28:17  <DaleStan> Celestar: I'd completely forgotten about that patch. I guess trackers exist for a reason.
07:28:23  <Celestar> DaleStan: so do I
07:28:49  <peter1138> Celestar: do we clear roadstops?
07:28:54  <peter1138> or are they pools... hmm
07:28:59  <Celestar> peter1138: I think all pools are cleared?
07:29:14  <Celestar> you could make those station specs pools :P
07:29:17  <peter1138> pools are, yes
07:29:47  <peter1138> oh, roadstops are pools. hmm.
07:29:57  <Celestar> we ought to have some *remove_block_proc in MemoryPool actually :S
07:31:15  <peter1138> so it could be a pool, but pools can't be dynamically sized... i'd have to either have a large block or use lots of individual blocks
07:31:27  <peter1138> using lots of individual blocks brings up the question of how to reference them
07:31:51  <Celestar> peter1138: maybe just a remove_block proc would be the cleanest alternative?
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07:34:32  <peter1138> hmm
07:34:37  <peter1138> well, off to work now
07:34:48  <Celestar> and should be easy to implement.
07:34:55  <Celestar> peter1138: you still didn't comment on my diff :P
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07:37:46  <Naksu> DaleStan: no idea
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08:03:00  <peter1138> Celestar: i did ... i said it looks ok ;p
08:03:46  <Celestar> that means "go" ?;)
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08:04:19  <peter1138> well, does it work? ;p
08:04:22  <Celestar> hm .. Intel's Core Duo T2600 mobile CPU outperforms the Pentium XE 965 in every gaming benchmark.
08:04:26  <Celestar> yeah :P
08:04:29  <Celestar> it fixes the crash.
08:04:55  <Celestar> there will be some minor deviations in station ratings when loading old savegames (only if last vehicle was a ship), but I guess we can live with that.
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08:06:27  <peter1138> not really a problem
08:07:03  <Celestar> ok :)
08:07:34  <Celestar> er ..
08:07:47  <Celestar> can you DCC me the diff? I somehow have overwritten it :P
08:10:11  <peter1138> sending
08:10:28  <Celestar> thanks
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08:15:46  * peter1138 wonders if 16 specs is enough per station (and not worry about dynamic allocation)
08:16:44  <peter1138> hmm, well, 15 + the default
08:16:58  <peter1138> DaleStan would know
08:19:05  <DaleStan> peter1138: 16 "specs"?
08:20:04  <peter1138> spec = custom station
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08:23:02  <MeusH> hello
08:23:04  <MeusH> Darkvater: you may be interested in
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08:23:25  <LordOfThePigs> Hello!
08:23:29  <DaleStan> Patch can support up to 16 classes (14 + DFLT + WAYP) and 255 different station IDs (not including the default station type, I believe.)
08:23:34  <LordOfThePigs> Hi Celestar!
08:23:35  <MeusH> Hey Lord
08:23:41  <LordOfThePigs> Long time no see! ;)
08:23:47  <MeusH> Darkvater: take a look at this one, too
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08:24:01  <peter1138> DaleStan: yes
08:24:11  <DaleStan> Does that answer your question?
08:24:14  <peter1138> no :)
08:24:28  <LordOfThePigs> I have a question for C preprocessor abusers that certainly lurk here
08:24:30  <peter1138> i'm talking about the number of different custom stations you'd use per station
08:24:36  <LordOfThePigs> #define _(o,t) ((b ## t << 4) + b ## o)
08:24:42  <LordOfThePigs> what does the ## mean?
08:25:04  <LordOfThePigs> (I found that in the GRFCodec source, and it's puzzling me
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08:25:12  <MiHaMiX> LordOfThePigs: concat strings probably?
08:25:32  <DaleStan> LordOfThePigs: it's the token-pasting operator. a ## b becomes ab.
08:25:56  <LordOfThePigs> ok
08:26:01  <LordOfThePigs> strange operator :D
08:26:35  <DaleStan> peter1138: I think the maximum number of station types per station is limited only by the number of tiles in the station.
08:26:55  <DaleStan> That is, it's the type is a property of the tile, not the station.
08:27:20  <DaleStan> *-it's
08:27:26  <LordOfThePigs> Is the comment on top of this ( supposed to be ironic?
08:28:45  <LordOfThePigs> Oh, hehe, I just noticed something
08:28:50  <LordOfThePigs> lol
08:28:55  <DaleStan> LordOfThePigs:  lines 29..33, I expect?
08:29:13  <LordOfThePigs> yeah
08:29:15  <LordOfThePigs> funny
08:29:30  <LordOfThePigs> I think that means I have my face to close to my screen
08:29:38  <peter1138> DaleStan: ok, that's a physical limit. what about in actual use?
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08:34:52  <DaleStan> peter1138: I don't think I've used more than four station types in any one station, but I don't play much with P:GS.  With P:GS, I could see four quite easily. I really don't know if any reasonable person would exceed sixteen, though.
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08:40:28  <peter1138> DaleStan: thanks :)
08:44:32  <Celestar> peter1138: I think you should commit what you have now and then implement some cleanup proc for memory pools. it's like 15 lines.
08:44:52  <DaleStan> <LordOfThePigs> C preprocessor abusers that certainly lurk here <-- Who, me? Abuse the C preprocessor? Most certainly not! I mean, surely writing header files that #include themselves doesn't qualify as abuse, does it? :p
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08:50:20  <CIA-3> celestar * r4466 /trunk/ (7 files):
08:50:20  <CIA-3> -Fix: (FS#71) Game no longer crashes when the last vehicle serving a station has been deleted.
08:50:20  <CIA-3>  -Negative side effect: upon loading old games, stations whose last vehicle was a station have (temporarily) lower ratings.
08:50:20  <CIA-3>  -Positive side effect: station.h no longer includes vehicle.h (breaks the station.h->vehicle.h->rail.h chain)
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08:51:44  <peter1138> Celestar: 15? should just be a free(), heh
08:54:04  <Celestar> peter1138: well the current pools need a "NULL" added as proc :)
08:56:28  <Celestar> GNAH
08:56:35  <Celestar> rail.h rail_map.h station.h is much chaos
08:56:41  <stillunknown> is there a way to assign NULL or empty a variable in a struct trough a pointer?
08:57:31  <stillunknown> (something non zero that would imply the same as zero in a world were zero isn't used)
09:00:06  <tokai|mdlx> struct blah s; struct blah *p = &s;  p->varfromstruct = NULL;
09:01:02  <stillunknown> i think i did that and it complains that i'm making an interger out of a pointer without a cast
09:01:23  <stillunknown> *integer
09:01:31  <tokai|mdlx> u must give the pointer the address of your struct..  so use & oparator.
09:05:33  * Celestar explodes
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09:06:51  <Naksu> Celestar, the neighbourhood terrorist
09:06:59  * stillunknown has never used DCC, so my firewall didn't accept that
09:07:30  <stillunknown> invalid lvalue in unary &, that's a new one :-)
09:07:47  <TSC> register variable?
09:08:17  <Celestar> well
09:08:29  <Celestar> our header files are more than evil
09:08:56  <stillunknown> decleration of a pointer which i hope to use to assign some variables as NULL, but being a newbie i don't know what is wrong :-)
09:09:30  <Naksu> hmm
09:09:32  <tokai|mdlx> stillunknown: <- this definitfly works ;)
09:09:43  <tokai|mdlx> maybe it hels you to understand your problem.
09:09:47  <tokai|mdlx> +p
09:10:23  <Celestar> .oO(header files should NOT include other header files)
09:10:47  <Naksu> Celestar, writing powerful code isn't evil :)
09:10:50  <TSC> That's a bit strict
09:11:01  <Celestar> TSC: at least not on such large a scale :S
09:11:01  <Naksu> as long as it's maintainable
09:11:10  <Celestar> it is NOT mailtainable at the moment
09:11:20  <TSC> I think that's true (:
09:11:34  <Naksu> well
09:11:40  <tokai|mdlx> Celestar: well that doesnt hurt if the header is safe to reuse multiple times :)  #ifndef HEADER_H  #define HEADER_H  .. do stuff ... #endif /* HEADER_H */
09:11:43  <peter1138> argh
09:11:58  <Naksu> at least it works :)
09:12:00  <peter1138> vs 2003 won't mass comment lines of text in asp :(
09:12:07  <peter1138> and asp doesn't have a block comment
09:12:23  <Celestar> tokai|mdlx: even then.
09:12:37  <Celestar> includes in header files should be kept minimal
09:12:45  <peter1138> Celestar: fancy going through and remove every single header from a header?
09:12:53  <peter1138> and then adding where needed to the c files
09:13:00  <peter1138> and preferably grouping common headers
09:13:07  <tokai|mdlx> celestar: sure.. but sometimes u need typedefs etc. in the headers, so no way around.
09:13:09  <Celestar> peter1138: that doesn't work. because of the damn static inlines all over the place.
09:13:18  <Naksu> how about
09:13:36  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm thinking of grouping all the typedefs into a single file.
09:14:05  <Naksu> checking which headers are actually used, and merging groups of headers that are not actually used alone? :)
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09:15:18  <prout> hi again
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09:15:32  <Celestar> yay.
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09:15:44  <Celestar> rail_gui.h includes rail_map.h via waypoint.h
09:16:10  <LordOfThePigs> Dalestan: you seem quite familiar with grfcodec
09:16:29  <LordOfThePigs> what is the byte order of the 16 bit numbers in PCX files?
09:16:30  <stillunknown> @tokau|mdlx: thanks for the example, any clue on how to deal with pointer linked structs such as Vehicles?
09:16:52  <LordOfThePigs> Celestar: What are you doing?
09:17:13  <Celestar> LordOfThePigs: I'm taking a big knife cutting through the dependency hell that is our code.
09:17:33  <Celestar> I'm not overly successful in doing so :S
09:18:31  <tokai|mdlx> stillunknown: dunno how vehicles are done in openttd... i only looked to the parts which failed under morphos ;) but i guess it's a linked list and there are macros available to traverse/ use them.
09:19:02  * stillunknown will bypass the problem for the moment
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09:20:40  * peter1138 sighs
09:20:45  <peter1138> i wish i had this week off too
09:21:04  <peter1138> i need to arrange time off that doesn't match with my missus'
09:21:16  <Naksu> haha
09:21:17  <peter1138> then she'll be at work and i can sit with ottd all day ;p
09:21:28  <peter1138> heh, ottd widow
09:21:32  <TSC> Pretend to get the dates mixed up
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09:21:44  <Celestar> BAAH
09:22:03  <Naksu> maybe you could teach her to code and have her sniff glue until she enjoys it
09:22:15  <Naksu> then you can spend some "quality time" coding ottd together
09:23:34  <LordOfThePigs> lol
09:23:53  <Celestar> wee!
09:24:04  <Celestar> removing rail_map.h from depot.h causes npf.c to not compile
09:24:04  <Celestar> I love this
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09:24:30  <LordOfThePigs> sounds like funny work
09:25:26  <Celestar> BAH
09:25:42  <Celestar> 90% of all files include rail_map.h and road_map.h via depot.h
09:26:06  <peter1138> heh
09:26:17  <peter1138> so npf.c needs rail_map.h
09:26:31  <peter1138> explicit dependencies are good
09:26:39  <Celestar> yes,
09:26:43  <Celestar> I'm just adding them
09:27:07  <Celestar> include rail_map.h in openttd.h kills sprite.h
09:28:02  <Celestar> BAH
09:28:10  <Naksu> hahaha
09:28:28  <Celestar> WHO wrote this? :o
09:29:04  <Celestar> ok I have collapsed the code.
09:29:12  <TSC> Try svn blame
09:29:35  <Celestar> In file included from sprite.h:6,
09:29:35  <Celestar>                  from engine.h:9,
09:29:35  <Celestar>                  from player.h:8,
09:29:35  <Celestar>                  from rail.h:10,
09:29:35  <Celestar>                  from rail_map.h:8,
09:29:37  <Celestar>                  from openttd.c:13:
09:30:27  <Celestar> and VARDEF is about the most idiotic thing I have seen
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09:31:40  <peter1138> yes
09:31:45  <Naksu> indeed
09:31:48  <Naksu> svn blame ftw
09:31:53  <Celestar> vici@galadriel:[/home/vici/openttd/trunk]> grep include *.h | wc -l
09:31:53  <Celestar> 155
09:36:23  <Naksu> svn blame svn:// or something :)
09:38:54  <Celestar> this is big-time suckage :S
09:39:22  <LordOfThePigs> suckage ?
09:41:25  <Celestar> "it sucks"
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09:41:38  <Celestar> /home/vici/openttd/trunk/network_server.c:1231: undefined reference to `IsFrontEngine'
09:41:41  <Celestar> wee :S
09:41:47  <Naksu> :D
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09:44:09  <Naksu> btw
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09:44:41  <Naksu> was "finished" 2 years ago, is there a point in having a mention of it in the wiki?
09:45:19  <Naksu> it would seem that there wont be any more development on that patch :)
09:47:58  <Naksu> and isn't the new map array merged into trunk yet?
09:47:59  <LordOfThePigs> <--- funny, I didn't even know I was there
09:48:09  <LordOfThePigs> ^^
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09:49:32  <stillunknown> Naksu: from what i know the new map array will not be merged into trunk
09:49:37  <LordOfThePigs> By the way, how is the map accessors rewrite process going?
09:50:03  <Naksu> that's weird
09:50:11  <Celestar> LordOfThePigs: doing progress
09:50:17  <Celestar> 90% of map accesses are gone
09:50:17  <Naksu> i've been playing >512x>512 games for a while now :)
09:50:54  <Celestar> does someone have access to the crap they call MSVC6?
09:51:04  <Naksu> at home i think i do
09:51:13  <Naksu> i at least had it at some point
09:52:22  <Naksu> LordOfThePigs: apparently 'tis you who started it
09:52:46  <Celestar> peter1138: got a sec?
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09:54:23  <LordOfThePigs> Naksu: yeah, I know about that (obviously :D ), I just didn't know it was on the wiki
09:54:40  <Naksu> the wiki knows all
09:54:59  <Naksu> apparently new ai is on hold until new map array thingy is done
09:56:45  <TL|Away> Naksu: talking about out-dated pages... let me clean it up a bit
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09:57:08  <Celestar> ok.
09:57:14  <Celestar> WHY do we have vehicle_gui.h ?
09:57:59  <TL|Away> Naksu: reload
09:58:32  <peter1138> Celestar: a sec? yes
09:59:48  <Celestar> dcc
10:02:05  <Naksu> LordOfThePigs:
10:02:10  <Naksu> apparently they're done
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10:03:25  <peter1138> including openttd.h in sprite.h?
10:03:36  <Celestar> peter1138: that's the point I'm currently still working on :)
10:03:42  <peter1138> looks like you're adding more than removing ;p
10:03:55  <Celestar> yes, because most of the stuff was implicitly included
10:04:01  <Celestar> via 2, 3 or more nested includes.
10:04:20  <Celestar> SpriteID is defined in openttd.h, not sprite.h
10:04:26  <peter1138> better to add openttd.h to everything that uses sprite.h
10:04:54  <Celestar> true
10:05:20  <Celestar> that's what I'm just doing :)
10:05:29  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:05:47  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm only 100% that the code will not work on MSVC6 after this diff :)
10:05:56  <peter1138> hmm
10:06:03  <peter1138> moving accessors back to depot.c
10:06:16  <peter1138> /* Water is stubborn, it stores the directions in a different order. */
10:06:28  <Celestar> ^^
10:06:36  <peter1138> that should be in a _map file?
10:07:27  <Celestar> yes.
10:07:35  <Celestar> but that's nothing to do with the head file.
10:07:44  <Celestar> water_map.h already has such an accessor
10:09:07  <peter1138> hmm
10:11:25  <Celestar> so you think move ALL the header includes out of the headers
10:11:32  <Celestar> in put them in c files no matter what?
10:13:20  <Celestar> bbl food
10:13:25  <peter1138> yeah
10:15:34  <Naksu> well if there's a need for a header to always include another header then the headers should be merged imo
10:20:14  <Patrick`> not true
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10:24:18  <Celestar> I'm rather unsure about this.
10:24:44  <Naksu> Celestar: you can always leave them there
10:24:52  <Naksu> start a wiki page or something about it
10:24:59  <Naksu> and delegate :)
10:26:26  <Celestar> maybe...
10:26:35  <Celestar> we should make a "requries" field in the header files?
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10:31:11  <Naksu> maybe someone could start a map of the dependency hell
10:31:14  <Cyberjunkie> :O
10:31:19  <Cyberjunkie> such a big room :D
10:32:30  <Cyberjunkie> could someone tell me if there's  ashortcut key for chat :o
10:36:44  <Naksu> yes
10:36:52  <Naksu> it's capslock+delete+f8
10:37:44  <Cyberjunkie> ;|
10:38:07  <Cyberjunkie> no seriously.. do i have to go do say "blahblahblah
10:38:25  <Cyberjunkie> cant i just type t blahblahblah
10:39:38  <Naksu> yeah, you can
10:39:50  <Naksu> cant remember the key tho
10:40:04  <Cyberjunkie> ;o
10:40:39  <Celestar> neither can I
10:40:44  <Celestar> should be on the wiki somehwere?
10:40:48  <Celestar> either ENTER or "t"
10:41:22  <Cyberjunkie> god
10:41:23  <Cyberjunkie> ITS ENTER
10:41:31  <Cyberjunkie> lol i just started my own server
10:41:38  <Cyberjunkie> and started pressing everything :D
10:41:49  <Cyberjunkie> TY :D
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10:49:20  <Celestar> bah
10:49:27  <Celestar> I have a pathfinder assertion.
11:07:06  <hylje> oh my
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11:08:35  <black_Nightmare> hey
11:08:49  <peter1138> so i need to add a cleanup facilty to the pools?
11:08:51  <peter1138> hmm
11:09:23  <Darkvater> ello
11:09:33  <KUDr_wrk> ello my master
11:09:36  <Celestar> heya Darkvater
11:09:37  <peter1138> hello oh lord vater
11:09:42  <hylje> :o
11:09:46  <Darkvater> whee, my following has grown :D
11:09:47  <Celestar> peter1138: as I said. it should be easy :)
11:09:58  * Darkvater adds peter1138 to his list of the faithful
11:10:20  <Celestar> Darkvater: there was something I wanted to talk to you about.
11:10:21  <KUDr_wrk> Darkvater: you dominate the world
11:10:22  <Darkvater> you know what I was thinking about? 1. rewriting Queue.c into CPP and perhaps using the STL for that
11:10:24  <Celestar> (but what)
11:10:25  <Darkvater> and
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11:10:31  <Celestar> STL?
11:10:34  <Darkvater> 2. add an List object (linked list)
11:10:39  <Darkvater> STandard Template Library
11:11:14  <Celestar> Darkvater: do you what I'm just busy doing? ;)
11:12:19  <Darkvater> damn I went to bed at 5AM and got up at 9 :(
11:12:30  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
11:12:31  <Darkvater> my whole day is fucked up
11:12:33  <Celestar> yuck
11:12:58  <Brianetta> Taken onmore than I should?
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11:13:21  <Darkvater> 10:50 < CIA-3>  -Negative side effect: upon loading old games, stations whose last vehicle was a station have (temporarily) lower ratings.
11:13:27  <Darkvater> does this make any sense to anyone?
11:13:57  <Brianetta> Nope.
11:14:03  <Brianetta> That doesn't parse.
11:14:21  <hylje> yes
11:14:39  <Celestar> Darkvater: :P
11:14:50  <Darkvater> I mean sounds nifty
11:14:59  <Darkvater> teleporting stations?
11:15:07  <Celestar> ER
11:15:12  <Celestar> s/station/ship
11:15:27  <hylje> moving stations
11:15:27  <Darkvater> ah
11:15:32  <Darkvater> understandable typo o_O
11:15:38  <Celestar> O_o
11:15:40  <Patrick`> a station who's last vehicle was a station ...
11:15:41  <Patrick`> what?
11:15:43  <hylje> common typo
11:15:51  <Celestar> the keys are right like next to each other
11:15:52  <Celestar> :P
11:15:55  <hylje> the letters are like next to each other
11:16:00  <hylje> !
11:16:01  <Cipri> (C) ;)
11:16:02  <Celestar> lol
11:16:11  <Celestar> kind of
11:16:28  <hylje> we just did some deri vative work
11:16:31  <Celestar> ok copying a file via NFS gives me a load of 6
11:16:38  <Darkvater> so what ya wanna talk about?
11:16:38  <hylje> damn spacebar
11:16:48  <Celestar> I can't quite remember :P
11:17:01  <Darkvater> no
11:17:10  <Celestar> apart from the fact that I'm busy clean ing up dependencies and need your opinion.
11:17:40  <Darkvater> I think pink is good
11:17:45  <Celestar> Darkvater: suppose I have a header file foo.h which needs bar.h. should foo.h include bar.h directly, or should all sources files that include foo.h include bar.h?
11:17:49  <hylje> spacebar owns
11:18:56  <Darkvater> good question. I think seperating it can cause troubles where you only include bar.h and it complains about things
11:19:25  <Darkvater> I see no problem in foo.h including bar.h. It is needed anyways and double includes are handled with #ifdefs in the header files themselves
11:20:47  <Celestar> and cause the HELL we're in now, basically?
11:21:29  <Naksu> it's hardly a hell now is it
11:21:36  <Naksu> i have a solution
11:21:37  <Darkvater> ?
11:21:50  <Darkvater> I don't see a difference between EACH time doing ineclude far; inclue boo
11:21:51  <Darkvater> and
11:21:58  <Celestar> it IS hell.
11:21:58  <Darkvater> include far;....<far.h> include boo;
11:22:12  <Naksu> have one header with all other headers included
11:22:15  <Naksu> and then include that
11:22:19  <Celestar> yeah
11:22:28  <KUDr_wrk> good idea
11:22:31  <Celestar> and each time you touch one header file, you recompile the who fucking binary.
11:22:35  <Celestar> whole*
11:22:42  <Celestar> that's not really the idea
11:22:51  <Naksu> well
11:22:55  <Darkvater> eh you still do it even if not including it in include
11:23:04  <Darkvater> it doesn't make a difference
11:23:16  <peter1138> you'd have to recompile all the object files, heh
11:23:49  <Celestar> the current situation sucks. we needa remedy it.
11:23:52  <Celestar> suggesitions?
11:23:53  <Naksu> does compiling ottd really take that long?
11:24:04  <KUDr_wrk> you guys should use precompiled headers - it takes seconds to compile whole ottd then
11:24:33  <Darkvater> precompiled headers were a bitch
11:25:12  <peter1138> hmm, CleanPool()
11:25:16  <Celestar> "were"?
11:25:19  <peter1138> but that deals with blocks. hmm.
11:25:39  <Celestar> ~.../// Pointer to a function that is called after a new block is added
11:25:40  <Celestar> ~...MemoryPoolNewBlock *new_block_proc;
11:25:41  <Darkvater> were because their support was removed
11:25:43  <Darkvater> (from MSVC)
11:25:49  <Celestar> this is where you need to add something peter :)
11:26:03  <peter1138> yes, i know that
11:26:12  <Celestar> and then CleanPool needs to cycle all the elemntes somewhere :(
11:26:23  <Celestar> well no wait
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11:26:31  <Naksu> anyways
11:26:39  <Celestar> the Destructor function should cycle all the elements in the block.
11:26:49  <Celestar> just like new_block_proc
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11:26:59  <KUDr_wrk> <Darkvater> were because their support was removed - at some newer MSVC than 2005 ?
11:26:59  <Celestar> AddBlockToPool also works with blocks
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11:27:07  <Naksu> make a map or a chart of all the dependencies of files, what the files are currently including and what's really required
11:27:14  <peter1138> true. i'll steal from that, heh
11:27:49  <Darkvater> KUDr_wrk: I never used 2005, it was removed in 2003 so if you upgrade the solution to 2005 it is also disabled there
11:28:08  <Darkvater> Naksu: that's what already happens in 'DEPS =>' of make
11:28:20  <Naksu> ah
11:28:20  <KUDr_wrk> aha, so removed from ottd
11:28:20  <Darkvater> which takes a FUCKING long time btw, sometimes even longer than compiling the damn game
11:28:36  <Darkvater> anyone seen egladil around?
11:28:48  <Naksu> Darkvater: which is why you run it now and make a wiki page about it? :D
11:29:08  <Darkvater> pffft
11:29:24  <Naksu> it's not like ottd takes the same amount of time as X or kde does to compile
11:29:32  <peter1138> it takes a fair while for me
11:29:42  <peter1138> i wouldn't want to recompile everything every time
11:29:42  <Celestar> depends on the box.
11:29:49  <Darkvater> Celestar: I see you didn't add the fixoldgames code when doing last_vehicle_type
11:30:00  <Darkvater> eg checking for vehicle and adding type if it is a valid vehicle
11:30:18  <Celestar> Darkvater: I think it's not worth the effort of carrying around an obsolete variable.
11:30:44  <Naksu> assuming 'DEPS =>' gives you the real dependencies instead of what's blindly included i don't see what's the problem
11:30:50  <Darkvater> yeah perhaps you're right
11:30:59  <Naksu> just run it once and slap some includes to their respective .c's
11:31:58  * stillunknown recompiles ottd often, takes a few minutes
11:32:01  <Darkvater> oh KUDr_wrk btw if nobody commits stuff to YAPF then you don't need to sync so often ;)
11:32:57  <KUDr_wrk> Darkvater: does "don't need" mean "don't do it"?
11:33:19  <Naksu> that way you'll have achieved the maximum recompiling efficiency, there's no implicit includes and even celestar is happy
11:33:29  <Darkvater> KUDr_wrk: well you can do it, but it's kinda pointless
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11:33:50  <peter1138> makes our versions go up fast too, heh
11:34:01  <Celestar> I have an NFS server that exports with "sync", and an NFS client that tries to mount with "async". Who wins?
11:34:19  <peter1138> Naksu: how should it know what is and what isn't actually needed?
11:34:30  <Darkvater> I do
11:34:36  <Naksu> i've no idea
11:34:58  <Celestar>
11:35:00  <Naksu> you do realize i had not even heard of DEPS before :)
11:35:12  <Naksu> Celestar: 404
11:35:35  <Celestar> try again
11:35:50  <Darkvater> Celestar: did you see tron added the bridge branch for you to look at?
11:36:04  <Celestar> yes.
11:36:09  *** sw4y [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:36:28  <Celestar> only that $BOSS doesn't want me to look at it at the present time
11:36:30  <Darkvater> just checking
11:36:38  <Darkvater> kick $BOSS
11:36:49  <Celestar> $BOSS pays me money
11:37:10  <Naksu> hmm
11:37:21  <Darkvater> peter1138:
11:37:25  <Darkvater> hommage ;)
11:37:47  <Celestar> Darkvater: only the bridge branch doesn't compile for me :)
11:38:00  <Darkvater> Celestar: $BOSS keep paying money and you do something else :)
11:38:23  <Celestar> lol
11:38:40  <Naksu> someone needs to translate openttd into swedish chef
11:38:41  <peter1138> Darkvater: huh?
11:38:50  <Darkvater> peter1138:  you have your own blog :P
11:38:53  <Darkvater> Peter's Hideout
11:38:58  <peter1138> i do?
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11:39:07  <peter1138> and webtranslator2?
11:39:54  <Naksu> even google exists in borkese
11:40:03  <Darkvater> that's a hommage to MiHaMiX :P
11:40:26  <peter1138> hmm
11:40:33  <Darkvater> yes I was bored
11:40:36  <peter1138> < confused
11:40:47  <Celestar> Darkvater: he wants me to check it or what?
11:41:05  <Darkvater> he said he added the branch for you and peter because you asked him to
11:41:16  <peter1138> well, i didn't, heh
11:41:19  <Darkvater> I just nformed you in case you missed it cause you weren't here at that time
11:41:24  <Celestar> I wasn't
11:41:28  <Celestar> I've just seen the branch
11:43:11  <Darkvater> dammit I wanna sleep but have to be around for at least another hour
11:44:16  <stillunknown> how late is it over there?
11:44:23  <Darkvater> 13:44
11:44:55  <stillunknown> strange time to sleep or do you work strange hours?
11:44:56  <peter1138> 7KB to add a lot of NULLs
11:45:12  <peter1138> Celestar:
11:45:50  <Darkvater> stillunknown: see above. went to bed at 5AM and got up at 9AM
11:45:53  <Celestar> peter1138: reading
11:46:14  <Darkvater> original plan was to wake up at 10AM but in my half-sleep I managed to change the alarm on my clock :s
11:46:51  <Celestar> peter1138: you don't need end_item. use block_size_bits for that :)
11:47:13  <Celestar> but I think the general idea is clean.
11:47:18  <peter1138> Celestar: hmm, i thought it might be cleaner to do it in there, so the called function doesn't have to worry about it
11:47:48  <Celestar> well. your call ;)
11:49:48  <peter1138> and Darkvater's opinion? heh
11:51:05  <Celestar> < f0rd> you can't do loops in html can you
11:51:06  <Celestar> ^^
11:51:06  <Darkvater> what's it do?
11:51:14  <Darkvater> custom cleanup callback function?
11:51:20  <peter1138> adds a handler for cleaning up... yes, that
11:51:44  <Darkvater> why would you need it? Isn't it all in the memorypool?
11:52:01  <Celestar> nope
11:52:02  <peter1138> in case you do strange things like allocate memory to a pool object
11:52:08  <Celestar> ^^
11:53:03  <Darkvater> you are strange indeed
11:53:11  <Celestar> well.
11:53:13  <Darkvater> better ask TL|Away though if he agrees with this abuse of mpools
11:53:21  <Celestar> we WANT proper newgrf support.
11:53:23  <Celestar> :)
11:53:30  <Naksu> Darkvater: it's not abuse
11:53:38  <Naksu> it's "efficient usage"
11:53:53  <peter1138> well, i could start adding bits to the map array and use that instead...
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11:54:17  <peter1138> hmm, that would be horrible
11:54:29  <peter1138> would need to be updated on load
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11:55:25  <Darkvater> although in general callbacks are cool
11:58:30  <Celestar> Darkvater: did Tron say what I'm supposed to do ?
11:58:49  <Darkvater> yes
11:59:07  <Darkvater> 17:30 <Tron> tell Celestar to hop around on one foot an cuckle like a chicken
11:59:17  <Darkvater> Celestar: no he said nothing :)
11:59:32  <peter1138> Darkvater: problem is my extra data in the station array is 3KB per station if it's not dynamic
12:00:02  <peter1138> and most of the time none of it will be used
12:00:19  <Darkvater> :O
12:00:23  <Darkvater> what's 3KB about it?
12:00:34  <Darkvater> that's a huge struct
12:00:39  <peter1138> 256 entries, heh
12:00:41  <Darkvater> 3096bytes
12:01:02  <Darkvater> 256 entries of?
12:01:10  <peter1138> 255 being the highest value of a custom station index
12:01:22  <Darkvater> ah
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12:01:25  <Naksu> 3k is nothing, really
12:01:32  <peter1138> 3kb *per station*
12:01:41  <peter1138> additional
12:01:47  <Naksu> and?
12:01:47  <Darkvater> can you use Queue.c? It has a hashmap thingie
12:01:49  <peter1138> currently it stands at 1kb
12:01:50  <Patrick`> meh
12:02:03  <Patrick`> biggest game I'ever seen anywhere had maybe 300 stations
12:02:04  <Naksu> make it optional :)
12:02:13  * Darkvater slaps Naksu
12:02:19  <Darkvater> do you want newstations support or not?
12:02:19  <Patrick`> and if the map is big enough to support that, then 900k is the least of your wories
12:02:22  <Patrick`> *worries
12:02:48  <Naksu> anyways
12:03:13  <Naksu> it's not like there's someone out there who'll have more than 1k stations
12:03:20  * Brianetta is prepared to donate 3k of RAM to the newstations cause
12:03:29  <stillunknown> option has the best of both worlds :-)
12:03:30  <Brianetta> per station
12:03:43  <Brianetta> stillunknown: It's complexity
12:03:45  <Naksu> and 3mb is nothing
12:03:56  <Naksu> compared to the map array
12:03:58  <peter1138> or i can do this pool block cleanup function and have the memory be dynamic
12:04:11  <peter1138> so it'll be 0kb without newstations
12:04:12  *** Spoco [] has quit []
12:04:14  <Brianetta> How much additional space does Patch use for this?
12:04:32  <Darkvater> Brianetta: they dont' have these problems. Max 256 stations always
12:04:37  *** spoco [] has joined #openttd
12:04:39  <Darkvater> so 3*256 max is not that much
12:04:41  <peter1138> and probably less than 64 bytes per station with newstations
12:05:20  <peter1138> hmm, as i understand it the patch way uses a single 256 entry lookup table
12:05:37  <Darkvater> yeah, patch has fixed arrays for all new features
12:05:42  <Brianetta> Patch sucks! (:
12:05:48  <peter1138> 256 different new stations sounds like a lot, but lots of them come in individual pieces
12:05:55  <Celestar> ok WHAT is the problem with dynamic allocation?
12:06:03  <Darkvater> not hard to imagine though. Go ahead and write a memorypool in assembly and interface with it :P
12:06:28  <Celestar> peter1138: is there any reason to limit it to 256?
12:06:28  <peter1138> Celestar: nothing, 'cept this memorypool modification
12:06:42  <Celestar> Darkvater: any reason against the memorypool modification?
12:06:43  <peter1138> Celestar: yes, that's the size of m4
12:07:02  <Celestar> peter1138: oh.
12:07:05  <Celestar> reason accepted :P
12:07:24  <Darkvater> Celestar: same thing for towns, vehicles, industries, etc.
12:07:27  <Darkvater> all hardcoded
12:07:30  <Naksu> m4?
12:07:31  <Darkvater> Celestar: no
12:07:36  <Darkvater> map4
12:07:53  <Celestar> so peter1138 then go for it ;)
12:09:22  <Celestar> well. there ARE some problems in the new bridge code left :P
12:09:35  <Brianetta> Naksu: m4 can only be changed once all the accessors you see in the SVN logs are completed.
12:10:26  <peter1138> Celestar: does it leave bits everywhere?
12:10:42  <peter1138> Celestar: if so, i know the fix for that
12:11:06  <Darkvater> bits.kill();
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12:11:46  <peter1138> o_O
12:13:04  <Celestar> peter1138: what do you mean
12:13:25  <peter1138> what problems were you referring to?
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12:14:48  <Celestar> reversing trains on bridge for example
12:14:52  <peter1138> ah
12:14:59  <peter1138> hmm
12:15:14  <peter1138> not tried, but... shouldn't be much different to reversing in a tunnel?
12:16:14  <Patrick`> they should be identically equivalent
12:16:19  <Patrick`> *should* be
12:16:54  <Celestar> well.
12:16:55  <Celestar> theory
12:16:58  <peter1138> well, they're aren't currently, but the new bridge code should make that happen
12:17:03  <peter1138> -'re
12:17:15  <peter1138> has anyone else been testing the branch?
12:17:25  <Darkvater> how does the new bridge code work?
12:17:39  <Celestar> Darkvater: as I said, some problems exist.
12:17:46  <peter1138> apparently it doesn't :-)
12:17:51  <Darkvater> is it as you said a teleport lik tunnels just with visible trains?
12:17:53  <Celestar> Darkvater: reversing on bridges asserts.
12:18:08  <Celestar> bridge ramp over tunnel causes trains to crash
12:18:17  <Darkvater> peter1138: any progress on freetype?
12:18:32  <peter1138> not since getting utf8 support (mostly) working
12:18:47  <peter1138> i was wondering about using wide chars internally instead of processing utf8
12:18:52  <Darkvater> ah so utf8-2 is the last
12:19:04  <peter1138> yeah, i've fixed some things since then but nothing major
12:19:07  <Darkvater> hmm isn't utf8 a normal char?
12:19:17  <peter1138> yes
12:19:29  <Darkvater> using wide-chars would mean a LOT of rewrites
12:19:37  <Darkvater> checking every stringhandler
12:19:53  <Darkvater> although it would ease up on the PDA port ;)
12:20:23  <peter1138> it would require a bit more memory, but less cpu time
12:20:35  <peter1138> swings 'n' roundabouts
12:21:04  <peter1138> i tested it with freetype disabled, it works ok, except obviously the chars we don't have don't display
12:21:17  <Celestar> guys
12:21:24  <Celestar> how about working on tracker items for once?
12:21:34  <Naksu> what?
12:21:45  <Darkvater> those are boring :P
12:21:53  <Naksu> you assume people should do something useful instead of their pet projects?
12:22:15  <Naksu> which planet do you hail from?
12:22:36  <Celestar> well.
12:22:40  <Celestar> I'm working on tracker items
12:23:45  <Darkvater> oi, i'm going home to sleep :)
12:23:48  <Celestar> :P
12:23:50  <Celestar> work°
12:23:50  <peter1138> ta ra
12:23:52  <Celestar> work!
12:23:56  <Darkvater> sleep!
12:24:00  <Darkvater> bbiaf
12:25:21  <peter1138> MiHaMiX: is there some way of getting utf8 lang files out of WT2? and perhaps having a test language (greek/russian?) with utf8 input?
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12:28:35  <Celestar> blathijs: you around?
12:29:25  <blathijs> Celestar: Yes
12:29:32  <Celestar> MiHaMiX: now that WT2 is in beta, will "we" work to improve flyspray a bit?
12:29:32  <blathijs> Just walked into my room :-)
12:29:49  <Celestar> <= I'm having a hard time reproducing this.
12:30:15  <blathijs> lemme see
12:30:43  <blathijs> ah
12:30:51  <peter1138> i've had that
12:30:54  <blathijs> it's easy to reproduce here ;-)
12:31:01  <Celestar> gimme instructions
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12:31:12  <blathijs> start a game, wait for autosave
12:31:13  <blathijs> tada
12:31:14  <peter1138> i think it depends on your distribution
12:31:20  <Celestar> (just compiling with DEBUG:=1)
12:31:29  <Celestar> blathijs: not having this problem whatsoever :(
12:31:29  <blathijs> no wait
12:31:35  <blathijs> start game when inside gdb
12:31:36  <peter1138> it works for me on debian, but it breaks with ubuntu
12:31:39  <blathijs> save the game
12:31:41  <blathijs> crash
12:31:49  <blathijs> peter1138: same hardware?
12:31:52  <peter1138> yes
12:32:05  <peter1138> (and debian/ubuntu are pretty similar, heh)
12:32:48  <Celestar> no problems here
12:33:00  <Celestar> gdb 6.3
12:33:07  <Celestar> gcc 4.0.2
12:33:46  <peter1138> blathijs: what happened to fs#13?
12:34:24  <blathijs> Forgot about, didn't have time for it? :-)
12:34:42  <peter1138> ah
12:34:46  <blathijs> I've been thinking about it, mainly about greatly simplifing the code at the cost of a little more memory usage
12:34:51  <peter1138> i see it has a clean up function
12:35:00  <peter1138> (i think)
12:35:19  <Celestar> so what about closing the tracker item then?
12:35:26  <blathijs> specifically, not trying to reduce the size of the memory pool, since that makes the code a lot more complex and not very smaller I expect...
12:35:35  <blathijs> Celestar: I'll get around to it sometime :-)
12:35:42  <Celestar> it's the press of a button
12:36:20  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: <= what have we decided about this? and what did you tell michi_cc about it?
12:37:37  <Celestar> Darkvater: RFC:
12:37:39  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: it will never make problems when not fixed
12:37:54  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: only it would be cleaner code
12:38:00  <KUDr_wrk> if you do it
12:38:03  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: is there anything bad about cleaner code?
12:38:10  <KUDr_wrk> no
12:38:17  <KUDr_wrk> it is on you
12:38:24  <KUDr_wrk> to decide
12:38:25  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: then I'm for it.
12:38:29  <KUDr_wrk> ok
12:38:41  <Celestar> just, could you apply? I have no Win box here.
12:38:51  <Celestar> bah
12:38:55  <KUDr_wrk> and commit?
12:39:03  <Celestar> you have commit rights, no?
12:39:12  <KUDr_wrk> technically yes
12:39:26  <KUDr_wrk> but i play in my branch only
12:39:33  <Celestar> well ok
12:39:37  <KUDr_wrk> as nobody told otherwise...
12:40:11  <KUDr_wrk> so tell me and i can do that
12:40:17  <stillunknown> i think svn is ported to other platforms as well :-)
12:40:23  <Celestar> do it.
12:40:23  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: yes, of course. as soon as I receive the instructions from Darkvater
12:40:26  <KUDr_wrk> ok
12:40:35  <Celestar> MiHaMiX: which instructions would those be?
12:40:49  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: could you also assign the tracker item to you and close it? that'd be great.
12:41:06  <KUDr_wrk> hmm, i must make account
12:41:09  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: WAIT
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12:41:46  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: ptrdiff_t doesn't work here.
12:41:58  <KUDr_wrk> where?
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12:42:26  <Celestar> on gnu-linux-x86_64
12:42:39  <KUDr_wrk> then i will make it from home, where i have also linux
12:42:53  <Celestar> it would possibly need the inclusing of malloc.h
12:43:11  <KUDr_wrk> maybe
12:43:34  <Celestar> what's ptrdiff_t anyway.
12:43:38  <KUDr_wrk> but ptrdiff_t should be known on all platforms
12:43:44  <Celestar> I mean it's shorter than unsigned long.
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12:43:49  <KUDr_wrk> signed size_t
12:44:00  <KUDr_wrk> the same size as pointer
12:44:02  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: what to change, etc...
12:44:08  <KUDr_wrk> but signed integral
12:44:18  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: send your suggestions to Darkvater to speed up the process :)
12:44:33  <Celestar> ok
12:44:35  * Brianetta hunts bout in vain for chocolate
12:44:38  <Celestar> hm.
12:44:42  <Celestar> what is sizeof(int) :S
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12:44:50  <Sacro> afternoon all
12:44:53  <KUDr_wrk> usually 4
12:44:57  <MeusH> hello Sacro
12:44:59  <KUDr_wrk> but linux64 8
12:45:04  <Celestar> ah!
12:45:06  <Celestar> that's why
12:45:06  * Brianetta starts a packet of custard creams instead
12:45:17  * MeusH eats a cup
12:46:42  <Celestar> ok one tracker item fewer to worry about
12:47:04  <Celestar> MiHaMiX: I can talk to you directly no?
12:47:26  <Brianetta> Is something which should be Wikified?
12:47:51  <Sacro> hello MeusH :)
12:48:10  <Sacro> Brianetta: i'd wikify it
12:48:28  <KUDr_wrk> <Celestar> ok one tracker item fewer to worry about <-- i am confused
12:48:42  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: well, I'm leaving for a 3-day conference tomorrow, and I'm sure that I'll forget, so please, writ e mail to Darkvater and Cc to me
12:49:03  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: I just wish "we" would work more on tracker itme.s
12:49:06  <Celestar> items.
12:49:16  <Celestar> instead of having them hanging around for ages
12:49:26  <KUDr_wrk> so should i do it at evening, yes?
12:49:28  <Celestar> yes
12:49:32  <KUDr_wrk> ok
12:49:39  <Celestar> Brianetta: why do you need two ip2?
12:49:42  <Celestar> IPs*
12:49:59  <Brianetta> Celestar: LAN browse for games
12:50:02  <Patrick`> you can nultiplex ssh and https on 443, it's tricky but doable
12:50:07  <Patrick`> oh, bad guess
12:50:22  <Celestar> Brianetta: because browse only works on default port?
12:50:26  <Brianetta> Yes
12:50:30  <Celestar> ah
12:50:35  <Celestar> that makes sense then
12:51:38  <blathijs> Celestar: I can reproduce the saving thread bug on both my systems (debian unstable, one x86, one x86_64)
12:51:43  <Brianetta> It's not usually an issue with internet games because the master server is clever
12:52:20  <Patrick`> german, not the bloody german again
12:52:44  <peter1138> anyone able to test ?
12:53:28  <Patrick`> let me check
12:53:55  <Celestar> <= comments?
12:54:25  <Patrick`> I don't have any music :/
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12:57:07  * peter1138 gets back to work
13:05:28  <MeusH>  <-- one line fix, anyone wants to commit?
13:05:28  <MeusH> pleease
13:06:52  <Patrick`> assuming that patch works, I second it
13:06:58  <Patrick`> we're too temperate-centric
13:08:25  <MeusH> thanks for support
13:08:27  <MeusH> oh, by the way:
13:08:37  <MeusH> and are almost the same
13:10:10  <Celestar> does that patch work MeusH ?
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13:10:46  <Brianetta> Patrick`: Temperate is the climate with the trains (:
13:11:41  <Patrick`> not true
13:11:50  <Patrick`> I think monorail on desert is the prettiest layout
13:11:55  <Noldo> Patrick`: and how does it show?
13:12:17  <Patrick`> Noldo: that that bug was permitted to survive for so long
13:12:39  <Patrick`> that only temperate forests were considered when someone came up with the idea of "planting" instead of "under construction"
13:12:46  <Patrick`> and just forgot everything but temperate
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13:13:20  <Celestar> heya egladil
13:13:23  <Noldo> well, why are the "climates" so separate in the first place?
13:13:29  <Patrick`> blame microprose
13:13:30  <Celestar> ask CS
13:13:37  <egladil> hello
13:13:42  <Celestar> egladil: how are things?
13:14:05  <egladil> good. didn't break any legs or anything while i was skiing :)
13:14:15  <Celestar> good news that is
13:14:30  <glx> mhh may cause desyncs
13:14:55  <Celestar> glx: checking soon
13:15:03  <Noldo> I don't care why they were so separate in TTD, I want to know why it hasn't been changed
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13:15:23  <Celestar> Noldo: because its deep in the map.
13:15:30  <Celestar> hey Belugas :)
13:16:07  <CIA-3> celestar * r4467 /trunk/industry_cmd.c: -Fix: New plantations now cause the correct ".. being planted .." news item (MeusH)
13:16:18  <Celestar> Noldo: and everywhere else in the code.
13:16:25  <Celestar> vehicles, for example.
13:17:23  <Noldo> Celestar: that reminds me about the level of modularity in the code I manage to write ;)
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13:18:08  <Celestar> Noldo: well, you don't have to deal with RE leftovers all day ;)
13:18:45  <Celestar> glx: you think that 88 might cause desyncs?
13:19:44  <peter1138> it won't
13:19:46  <Noldo> but it really makes ask one simple question "WHY?!"
13:19:47  <peter1138> but it doesn't work properly
13:20:03  <Celestar> I think convrail should have semaphores by default, and elrail light signals
13:20:20  <Celestar> <= what about dis?
13:20:34  <Patrick`> Celestar: how's the signal thing?
13:20:40  <Celestar> Patrick`: on hold.
13:20:41  <Patrick`> the patch on the forums has a nasty bug
13:20:42  <Celestar> I'm working
13:21:09  <Patrick`> post it in the forums, let someone do it?
13:21:33  <Born_Acorn> The Semaphores don't look very pretty.
13:22:34  <peter1138> Celestar: it breaks when you're editing existing signals
13:22:51  <Patrick`>
13:25:10  <Splatman1984> I want to add another button to the vehicle list is vehicle_gui.c where I want to be looking, if so what functions am I looking for, because nothing seems to be jumping out
13:25:32  <Patrick`> it's just frustrating because it's totally working apart from an unrelated bug that got fixed in a later version
13:25:49  <Celestar> back later
13:25:51  <Celestar> => work
13:25:54  <MeusH> thanks Celestar for commit
13:25:56  <MeusH> cu
13:26:07  <Celestar> egladil: you 100% sure about that NORETURN stuff?
13:27:47  <egladil> one can never be 100% sure
13:28:03  <egladil> but yes, i believe it should be declared as i said in the bug report
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13:34:28  <Celestar> egladil: explain? ;)
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13:36:37  <egladil> NORETURN is macro used to indicate that a function doesn't return, and for other compilers it is declared as such. so it is only logical to do the same for gcc, thus declaring it __attribute((noreturn))
13:37:41  <Patrick`> I'm going to hell
13:37:46  <Patrick`> I tried to manually apply the patch
13:38:54  <Patrick`> yay, fail
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13:44:28  <MeusH> hey
13:44:40  <MeusH> I've got a question about implementation of logical statements
13:44:59  <MeusH> is (a && b) { }; equal to:
13:45:30  <MeusH> s/is/is if
13:45:45  <MeusH> if (a) { if (b) { }};
13:45:47  <MeusH> or
13:45:53  <MeusH> is (b && a) { };
13:46:01  <peter1138> first
13:46:04  <MeusH> I mean, when first parameter fails, is second being checked?
13:46:06  <MeusH> oh
13:46:09  <MeusH> thanks peter1138
13:46:11  <MeusH> that's clever
13:47:13  <glx> MeusH: that's why you should test for NULL first
13:47:27  <Born_Acorn> peter1138! newstations!
13:47:31  <peter1138> Born_Acorn: lies
13:47:52  <MeusH> yes, that's right
13:47:53  <Born_Acorn> newstations!
13:47:55  <MeusH> thanks glx
13:47:58  <peter1138> Born_Acorn: lies
13:48:04  <Born_Acorn> newstations not lies!
13:48:04  <MeusH> I'm doing
13:48:22  <MeusH> and it will be ready soon
13:48:35  <peter1138> ah
13:48:37  <MeusH> I just wanted it not to drain too much cpu
13:48:41  <peter1138> yeah
13:49:37  <glx> MeusH: you check rail type of electric engine tile?
13:50:05  <Born_Acorn> Perhaps the catenary on the trains are just gathering static electricity with the air and the rails, causing sparks.
13:50:06  <Born_Acorn> Yes.
13:50:09  <peter1138> HasPowerOnRail(v, railtype)
13:50:20  <peter1138> getting the railtype is a bitch though
13:50:32  <peter1138> cos it depends on tiletype
13:50:35  <peter1138> Born_Acorn: heh
13:54:01  <Patrick`> the terrain generator is seriously poor ...
13:54:13  <Patrick`> very low water, very flat should not make lake city
13:54:31  <Celestar> egladil: hows progress on the 32bpp front?
13:54:58  <MeusH> Done
13:55:14  <CIA-3> celestar * r4468 /trunk/stdafx.h: -Fix: (FS#45) correct declaration of NORETURN for gcc (egladil)
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13:55:44  <peter1138> MeusH: problem: getrailtype is only valid for rail tiles
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13:55:54  <peter1138> there are also level crossings and bridges to consider
13:56:02  <peter1138> (tunnels don't matter)
13:56:11  <peter1138> oh, and stations
13:56:13  <blathijs> and stations and depots
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13:56:20  <peter1138> depots are rail tiles :)
13:56:22  <blathijs> hmmm depots are rail tiles I think
13:56:29  <Celestar> they are
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13:57:12  <MeusH> (but there are no effects in depots)
13:57:17  <Celestar> that's why I have not yet implemented it.
13:57:20  <blathijs> MeusH: good point :-)
13:57:32  <MeusH> so, I should make it sensitive for stations and level crossings, too?
13:57:34  <egladil> [18 15:54 CEST] Celestar egladil: hows progress on the 32bpp front?  <== same status as before i went skiing. haven't been doing any coding while i was gone :)
13:57:53  <peter1138> egladil: what, not stuck on a laptop in the evenings?
13:58:07  <Celestar> MeusH: RailType GetTileRailType(TileIndex tile, Trackdir trackdir) <= usen dis one.
13:58:36  <MeusH> okay
13:58:44  <MeusH> does vehicle consist its direction?
13:58:55  <MeusH> or is there any other way to grab trackdir data?
13:59:01  <Celestar> direction != trackdir.
13:59:27  <blathijs> MeusH: You have a direction and a track
13:59:45  <blathijs> v.dir or v.direction or something and v.u.rail.track IIRC
13:59:51  <blathijs> you can combine those to a trackdir
13:59:57  <blathijs> might also be a wrapper for that
14:00:00  <egladil> peter1138:  nope. playing games (non-computer) with my friends, out playing in the snow (you never get to old for that :) ) and just sitting down doing nothing
14:00:27  <Celestar> GetVehicleTrackdir(const Vehicle *v)
14:00:31  <Celestar> what about this?
14:00:31  <MeusH> Trackdir GetVehicleTrackdir(const Vehicle* v);
14:00:34  <MeusH> ohh
14:00:36  <MeusH> yeah :)
14:00:50  <blathijs> yes, that wrapper :-)
14:01:13  <blathijs> wrappers make our lives easy :-)
14:01:19  <MeusH> indeed
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14:02:49  <glx> MeusH: //No smoke for electric vehicles <-- little typo in this comment :)
14:03:13  *** Netsplit over, joins: guru3
14:04:02  <blathijs> glx: it misses a space after //, but I don't see anything else?
14:04:16  <glx> smake and electric vehicle
14:04:23  <MeusH> thanks :D
14:04:23  <glx> *smoke
14:04:39  <Born_Acorn> Smoke isn't a typo, its an incorrect word!
14:05:13  <peter1138> well, if your electric vehicle smokes, you've got issues...
14:05:42  <Born_Acorn> Not for long
14:05:58  <Born_Acorn> The smoking in all public places ban applies to trains too.
14:06:02  <Born_Acorn> :p
14:07:35  <Celestar> lol
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14:10:01  <MeusH> how about... 	if (GetEngine(engtype)->railtype == RAILTYPE_ELECTRIC && GetTileRailType(v->tile, GetVehicleTrackdir(v)) != RAILTYPE_ELECTRIC)
14:10:57  <Celestar> HasPowerOnRail ?
14:11:21  <Celestar> v->u.rail.railtype
14:12:45  <MeusH> 		if (GetEngine(engtype)->railtype == RAILTYPE_ELECTRIC && GetTileRailType(v->tile, GetVehicleTrackdir(v)) != RAILTYPE_ELECTRIC)
14:12:52  <MeusH> no
14:12:53  <MeusH> if (!HasPowerOnRail(u->u.rail.railtype, GetRailType(u->tile)))
14:13:09  <Celestar> why the "!"
14:13:20  <Celestar> no
14:13:21  <glx> to return
14:13:40  <MeusH> if it has no power, it will produce no sparks
14:13:51  <Celestar> if (!HasPowerOnRail(u->u.rail.railtype, GetTileRailType(v->tile, GetVehicleTrackdir(v)) ?
14:14:15  <MeusH> yes, yes
14:14:23  <MeusH> I just copied that from the code
14:14:25  <glx> v->u.rail.railtype
14:15:07  <KUDr_wrk> To uncover the 10.000 nodes mystery: each node is specified by a combination of TileIndex/Trackdir, not only TileIndex itself. So it can't cover 100x100 tiles area, but much less (like 30x30 tiles). I think that NPF works quite well for ships (at least my yapf type 1 has the same results, only they come bit faster). Type 2 seems to be better (can cover area like 50x50 tiles) since it uses different node model (TileIndex/ExitDir). But still the same
14:15:14  <KUDr_wrk> oops
14:15:22  <KUDr_wrk> wrong window
14:15:51  <Celestar> hm?
14:15:59  <MiHaMiX> KUDr_wrk: never mind, it is interesting :D
14:16:10  <KUDr_wrk>
14:16:12  <Noldo> yeh
14:16:16  <KUDr_wrk> was for that
14:16:46  <Noldo> but aren't ships the ones with most performance problems on npf?
14:17:13  <Born_Acorn> ooh. nightlies are no longer folders in zips
14:17:19  <Born_Acorn> How handy
14:17:40  <KUDr_wrk> Noldo: not much - you can configure the speed/accuracy
14:18:01  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: hows the performance of the road pathfinder?
14:18:38  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: depends - short paths (1:3)/long paths (1/10)
14:18:50  <Celestar> ?
14:18:55  <KUDr_wrk> NPF/YAPF
14:18:56  <KUDr_wrk> aha
14:19:05  <KUDr_wrk> you mean NPF itself
14:19:06  <Celestar> 10 times better?
14:19:14  <Celestar> I mean YAPF:NPF
14:19:18  <KUDr_wrk> I have now 300 RVs
14:19:22  <KUDr_wrk> aha
14:19:25  <KUDr_wrk> then ok
14:19:26  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: how difficult is the map?
14:19:30  <KUDr_wrk> 1:3 ... 1:10
14:19:32  <Celestar> (for the pathfinder)
14:19:50  <KUDr_wrk> pf has no problem with roads
14:19:53  <Celestar> like you have a huge huge city with lots of 2x2 blocks.
14:19:58  <Celestar> (thus many many many loops)
14:20:04  <KUDr_wrk> unless you cover whole map with roads
14:20:13  <KUDr_wrk> and make 10000 crossings
14:20:41  <Celestar> well maybe not the whole map, but like a 100x100 tile area?
14:20:49  <KUDr_wrk> on my machine it solves one segment in ca 0.5 ... 1.0 us
14:21:02  <Celestar> hows performance YAPF:OPF?
14:21:08  <KUDr_wrk> so 100x100 crossings city
14:21:23  <KUDr_wrk> 10 ms
14:21:39  <Celestar> vici@galadriel:[/home/vici/mglet/branches/multiscalar/cdftest/data/fischer/dump]> free -m
14:21:40  <KUDr_wrk> i didn't measure OPF
14:21:42  <Celestar>              total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
14:21:45  <Celestar> Mem:          2007       1991         15          0          0       1294
14:21:47  <Celestar> -/+ buffers/cache:        696       1310
14:21:48  <KUDr_wrk> i can try it
14:21:50  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: it'd be interesting :)
14:21:52  <Celestar> Swap:         4102       1352       2749
14:21:55  <Celestar> :S
14:22:25  <KUDr_wrk> OPF will be bit faster i guess
14:22:30  <Celestar> hm ..
14:22:34  <Celestar> how much and why? ;)
14:22:35  <KUDr_wrk> as it doesn't record the path
14:22:42  <KUDr_wrk> a bit
14:22:48  <KUDr_wrk> I will try it
14:22:58  <KUDr_wrk> and tell you
14:23:16  <Celestar> ^^
14:24:21  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: but i can't assign any bug to me
14:24:34  <KUDr_wrk> looks that flyspray knows that i am not dev
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14:24:44  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: maybe I can change that.
14:24:53  <KUDr_wrk> :)
14:25:26  <Celestar> MiHaMiX can I think :)
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14:28:10  <Celestar> whoha
14:28:14  <Celestar> try now?
14:28:40  <Celestar> MiHaMiX:
14:28:44  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: yes?
14:30:29  <Celestar> something looks weird with the User Groups
14:30:36  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: what?
14:30:40  <Celestar> KUDr appears now as the only Project Manager to me?
14:30:43  <Celestar> and there are no other groups.
14:31:37  <MiHaMiX> hihi :)
14:31:41  <MiHaMiX> yes, indeed :)
14:32:05  <Celestar> we need more groups :P
14:32:07  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: since from saturday WT2 also uses the sabe flyspray
14:32:29  <MiHaMiX> same
14:32:37  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: see the global groups
14:32:54  <Celestar> global groups?!
14:33:48  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: yes
14:34:00  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: admin toolbox -> User groups
14:34:22  <MeusH> <- Fixed the fix
14:34:54  <Celestar> I have no admin toolbox ^^
14:35:48  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: yes, I just have noticed :)
14:35:55  <MiHaMiX> Celestar: I'm fixing the problem currently
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14:38:32  <MiHaMiX> ok,
14:38:42  <MiHaMiX> not ready still, but more than nothing
14:38:52  <MiHaMiX> just created a 'regular patchers' group
14:39:10  <MiHaMiX> those belongs to this group who send regular patches
14:40:11  <KUDr_wrk> <Celestar> KUDr appears now as the only Project Manager to me? <--- I don't want such big responsibility
14:40:29  <MeusH> MiHaMiX: something like me?
14:42:29  <MiHaMiX> KUDr_wrk: don't worry, you are already moved to 'regular patchers'
14:42:38  <KUDr_wrk> thanks
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14:42:58  <MiHaMiX> MeusH: how many patches did you sent already?
14:43:38  <KUDr_wrk> MiHaMiX: but still "assign to self No "
14:44:08  <MiHaMiX> KUDr_wrk: yes, regular patchers are not allowed to assign a task to self, but the project admin can assign a task to them
14:44:12  <MiHaMiX> KUDr_wrk: which task?
14:44:19  <MeusH> MiHaMiX: 3-8
14:44:27  <KUDr_wrk> 97
14:45:22  <MeusH> I'm "reporter"
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14:54:40  <hylje> should there be a keyboard shortcut for tile info?
14:55:36  <MeusH> H? I?
14:55:43  <MeusH> (help/info)
14:55:53  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: are you around?
14:55:54  <Celestar> if (GetEngine(engtype)->railtype == RAILTYPE_ELECTRIC && !HasPowerOnRail(v->u.rail.railtype, GetTileRailType(v->tile, GetVehicleTrackdir(v))))
14:55:59  <Celestar> you don't need the first part ..
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14:57:01  <MeusH> no first part would mean no steam/smoke for steamers and diesels, on non electrified tracks
14:57:03  <MeusH> imo...
14:57:04  <peter1138> MiHaMiX: yes
14:57:49  <peter1138> MeusH: no it wouldn't
14:58:49  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: is there any ETA on utf-8 patch?
14:59:15  <peter1138> no, but there's not a lot left to do
14:59:21  <peter1138> i need to handle input properly
14:59:38  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: what should I write to a wannabe ukrainian translator?
14:59:42  * MeusH looks at HasPowerOnRail
15:00:18  <glx> MeusH: HasPowerOnRail returns true for diesel on conventionnal and elrail
15:02:15  <MeusH> seems so
15:02:16  <MeusH> hmm
15:02:24  <MeusH> one second more for me thinking
15:02:46  *** egladil [] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
15:02:58  <MeusH> HasPowerOnRail returns false only for electric engines on conventional rails, or in case of errors/invalid types?
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15:08:50  <MeusH> Allright, it's working!
15:08:50  <MeusH>
15:08:53  <MeusH> It works*
15:09:07  <Sacro> damn it, php arrays start from 0 by default dont they
15:09:22  <MeusH> but I think I've got an objection
15:09:26  <MeusH> It all depends on you
15:09:34  <MeusH> this is needed only for electric carriages
15:10:03  <MeusH> with the "first part", some checks could have been avoided
15:10:17  <MeusH> this meant less processing for non-electric trains
15:10:33  <MeusH> now, without the "first part", processing is done for all trains
15:10:36  <glx> but if we have more rail types this prevent a rewrite later
15:10:48  <MeusH> yes
15:11:22  <MeusH> so, let's hope people won't complain about low performace because of "sparks"
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15:13:58  <peter1138> is it slow? heh
15:14:16  <peter1138> if it's really slow, put it after the vehicle tick tests
15:14:16  <MeusH> now, it isn't
15:14:22  <peter1138> then it will be called less often
15:14:25  <MeusH> but some people may say it's slow
15:14:26  <MiHaMiX> Sacro: yes
15:14:30  <MeusH> it's like a desease
15:14:44  <MeusH> someone keeps complaining too much
15:14:51  <MeusH> just fyi
15:15:05  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: so, do you have any idea what should I reply to a wannabe ukrainian translator (his language doesn't fit into iso8859-15)
15:15:11  <MeusH> I'm happy with that patch, both nosparks2.patch and nosparks3.patch
15:15:18  <MeusH> you decide what to commit
15:15:57  <Born_Acorn> Im running the whole network on 350hp shunting diesels, and make more of a profit than ever!
15:16:28  <MeusH> MiHaMiX: an estimated time of utf-8 support (peter1138 may know that)
15:16:42  <Born_Acorn> Its the running costs. £170000 a year to £44000. Bit of a drop.
15:17:13  <MeusH> also, we may tell him to translate strings in his notepad/metapad/vim/whatever, then he may put it to webtranslator much easier
15:17:23  *** MeusH is now known as MeusH[away]
15:17:35  <Celestar> Out of memory. Type HELP MEMORY for your options.
15:17:36  <peter1138> MeusH[away]: no, i don't ;p
15:17:38  <Celestar> \o/
15:17:42  <Born_Acorn> Lets make Babelfish do all the translation from now on :p
15:17:48  <Celestar> I have 2 Gigs or RAM in the box.
15:17:49  <peter1138> MiHaMiX: not sure... is there some way of allowing utf8 input for it?
15:17:54  * Celestar goes finding memory sticks
15:18:26  <Born_Acorn> Celestar, using NPF? :p
15:19:06  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: WT2 can handle utf8 input, but currently I validate the input to iso8859-15 since the known Openttd limitations
15:19:11  <Celestar> nope, matlab :S
15:19:52  <peter1138> MiHaMiX: yeah, can you turn it off for one language?
15:20:06  <Born_Acorn> <= Always wanted one of them :p
15:21:22  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: I can, but that would be an ugly solution, and the translator couldn't test his translations
15:21:35  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: but .. I can turn off
15:22:06  <Celestar> BAH
15:22:22  <peter1138> MiHaMiX: hmm
15:22:35  * Celestar detonates
15:23:10  <hylje> wisp
15:23:19  <MiHaMiX> suicide terrorist! :)
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15:23:27  <hylje> no, wisp
15:23:33  <MiHaMiX> jnmbk: hi
15:23:38  <hylje> dispels magic and drains mana when detonated
15:23:41  <jnmbk> hi
15:27:01  <MiHaMiX> bbl
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15:36:52  <Celestar> I hate vectorized printf.
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15:37:35  <Celestar> especially when you accidently pass a 250-million-element-sized array to it instead of a single element out of the array
15:38:09  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: here are some results (timing OPF/YAPF):
15:38:09  <KUDr_wrk>  1) direct path (through 10 crossings + 30 crossings around) -> OPF:197 / YAPF:223 / NPF:1170
15:38:09  <KUDr_wrk>  2) indirect path (40 crossings in direct path, bus must go around to reach the destination) -> OPF:240 / YAPF:246 / NPF:1457 (but OPF chooses wrong way - never reaches the destination)
15:38:28  <KUDr_wrk> numbers are us
15:38:39  <Celestar> that looks rather well
15:38:58  <Celestar> KUDr_wrk: what about if destination is not reachable?
15:39:06  <Celestar> how fast do you abort?
15:39:12  <KUDr_wrk> hmm
15:39:15  <KUDr_wrk> can try
15:41:02  <KUDr_wrk> OPF:240 / YAPF:240 / NPF:1447
15:42:04  <KUDr_wrk> but huge map: OPF:240 / YAPF:5000 / NPF:20000
15:42:24  <KUDr_wrk> huge means thousands crossings
15:43:02  <Celestar> why is OPF better in this case?
15:43:11  <Celestar> broader search?
15:43:29  <KUDr_wrk> YAPF:5000 / NPF:20000 ,--- this is when npf_max_search_nodes = 10000
15:43:50  <KUDr_wrk> OPF simply gives up much sooner
15:44:01  <KUDr_wrk> it failes also when path exists
15:45:07  *** MeusH[away] is now known as MeusH
15:46:20  <Celestar> true
15:46:29  <Celestar> can this number of "5000" be tweaked?
15:46:40  <Celestar> with some .cfg setting?
15:47:55  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: I'll write this guy that the utf-8 support are rapidly approaching therefore I advise him to wait a little
15:49:00  <MeusH> good move :)
15:50:32  <peter1138> yea
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15:51:07  <omay> hi, what is the key shortcut to borrow money?
15:51:25  <peter1138> there isn't
15:51:30  <Born_Acorn> hmm. can't you drag electric rails over convrails yet?
15:51:42  <Patrick`> you can control-click on "borrow" to borrow the max amount in one go
15:51:58  <Celestar> Born_Acorn: no, I'm working on it
15:51:59  <glx> Born_Acorn: no but you can use convert tool
15:52:18  <Born_Acorn> I was trying to mak a junction
15:52:30  <omay> Patrick`: thx!
15:52:47  <Born_Acorn> Good that its being worked on though.
15:54:40  <Brianetta> Does elrail cost more yet?
15:55:32  <Born_Acorn> no
15:55:38  <MiHaMiX> t should.
15:55:41  <MiHaMiX> it should.
15:55:43  <Born_Acorn> not according to this latest nightly anyway.
15:56:13  <Born_Acorn> and when convertingto elrail, it should be only the cost of catenary and not catenary+track
15:56:26  <Born_Acorn> since you are upgrading.
15:56:45  <MeusH> indeed
15:58:05  <Born_Acorn> how strange. an electric train went the wrong way up the track.
15:58:33  <KUDr_wrk> <Celestar> can this number of "5000" be tweaked? <--- npf_max_search_nodes
15:58:57  <KUDr_wrk> but 5 ms is not much
15:59:33  <KUDr_wrk> it is acceptable if path-not-found -> invalid-user-error
15:59:35  <Celestar> depends on the numbe rof vehicles.
15:59:46  <Celestar> Brianetta: no that will happen with the balancing.
15:59:56  <Celestar> currently monorails and maglevs don't cost more as well
16:00:57  <Born_Acorn> hmm. the track isn't auto-joined when building a normal depot next to elrail
16:03:11  <Celestar> no
16:03:13  <Celestar> it isn't
16:03:18  <Celestar> it's two different railtypes.
16:03:25  <Brianetta> Maglevs should be unbelievably expensive. (:
16:03:46  <Celestar> Brianetta: which is totally unrealistic
16:03:54  <Brianetta> Well, maybe
16:04:12  <Brianetta> Maglev is more expensive IRL because of scaled economies
16:04:14  <Sacro> 150KB/s should be illegal
16:04:34  <Brianetta> Sacro: Too right.  I wouldn't put up with such a sluggardly rate.
16:04:42  <MeusH> vote 150KB/s for moderator!
16:05:05  <Sacro> Brianetta: us non-bt people can only get up to 300KB/s without a business line
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16:05:56  <Celestar> Brianetta: Maglevs are about factor 1.5x - 1.8x more expensive in track construction and factor 2x less expensive in track maintenance (compared to 300km/h convrail)
16:06:36  <MeusH> TTD misses maintenance costs at all
16:06:39  <hylje> Sacro: around here you can get fullrate adsl (1M/s) for quite cheap
16:06:46  <MeusH> besides some fixed monthly fees
16:06:59  <Celestar> MeusH: I have a maintenance cost patch
16:07:02  *** MeusH is now known as MeusH[away]
16:07:13  <Celestar> but it is out ofd atae
16:07:24  <Brianetta> Sacro: I'm non-BT
16:07:28  <MeusH[away]> Celestar: that's terrrific. I hope it doesn't loop through all tiles?
16:07:30  <Celestar> after 0.5.0 I'll start a balancing branch
16:07:39  <MeusH[away]> Celestar: you can count on me
16:07:42  <MeusH[away]> later guys
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16:08:27  <Brianetta> Celestar: That doesn't take into account right of way purchase.  This is what makes expansion of the UK rail network prohibitively expensive, for example.
16:08:51  <Celestar> MeusH[away]: it does loop. but the code loops anyway through all tiles, so it's a minor addon.
16:08:57  <Brianetta> Building rails has two costs - construction and land purchase.  The latter inflates much more than the former.
16:09:10  <Brianetta> That isn't reflected in OpenTTD, though
16:09:12  <Celestar> Brianetta: that is rather independent of the railtype.
16:09:27  <Brianetta> Celestar: Not so - you can't build maglevs when land is still cheap.
16:09:29  <Celestar> Brianetta: actually the opposite is true, Maglevs have a lower land consumption.
16:09:36  <hylje> and building stuff on bridges is actually cheaper when land is expensive
16:09:56  <hylje> thus, elevated rail
16:10:06  <Brianetta> Maglevs have identical land consumption in OpenTTD
16:10:29  <Brianetta> Monorails should have practically 0, but htey also take up as much land.
16:11:07  <Patrick`> closer to a town - much more expensive?
16:11:18  <Patrick`> all that'll do is just make it harder in the start-game
16:11:41  <Patrick`> ideally, costs should scale with network size such that "having lots of trains" isn't a license to print money
16:11:43  <Brianetta> Patrick`: It is by default, as building sufficiently close to a town involves demolition and/or difficult terraforming options
16:11:50  <Patrick`> mm, 3 billion
16:12:15  <Celestar> Brianetta: my track maintenance patch takes that into account as well.
16:12:31  <Celestar> the closer you get to a city center, the more expensive construction becomes.
16:12:56  <hylje> building stations to town centers earlygame = win
16:12:57  <hylje> ?
16:13:11  <Jang-> Celestar: you started thinking about HS lines?
16:13:20  <Sacro> hylje: im on 1.5 i think, maybe 2
16:13:29  <Celestar> out in the boonies you pay normal costs (like now with "purchase land"), and then it goes up to x4, x9, x16, x25
16:14:51  <hylje> ouch
16:16:30  <peter1138> guys
16:16:43  <peter1138> 2cc & colour schemes
16:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the cost of dirty terrain is 0, right?
16:16:55  <peter1138> do we want to allow different colours depending on engine type?
16:17:18  <Celestar> hylje: have you tried building a hugeass station in the middle a big cites in this decade? You'll find that's close to impossible.
16:17:33  <Celestar> I think the game should reflect that you cannot bulldoze half a town for a single station.
16:17:36  <hylje> thats why those hugeass stations were built last decade
16:17:55  <Celestar> hylje: they were mostly built 1-2 CENTURIES ago.
16:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that is why we need undergound rails
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16:18:03  <hylje> but you got my point
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16:18:46  <hylje> those stations will be built early game
16:18:48  <Sacro> peter1138: the same as TTDP
16:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> there are quite a few projects of large stations going currently in germany
16:18:57  <Jang-> tbh, the cost of construction and maintenance only affects in the first 5 years of play
16:19:04  <peter1138> and what about network games?
16:19:07  <Jang-> after that, you can spend millions on a route and still be in profit
16:19:16  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah? Stuttgart 21 is uncertain, München 21 is dead.
16:19:25  <snoop__> is it possible to give your company 2 colors in Open TTD? For example if i want to make cargo arcraft a different color to identify them easily
16:19:25  <hylje> 5 years -- on hard?
16:19:36  <Jang-> yeah, pretty much
16:19:37  <Born_Acorn> I believe transrapid style track requires only the right of way, due to the fact that only the pylon space is bought.
16:19:40  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... my information is a little outdated on this, i assume ;)
16:19:47  <Eddi|zuHause> but they built one in berlin
16:19:54  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: and all of this involves selling the current land.
16:19:54  <Born_Acorn> snoop__, not yet
16:19:57  <Jang-> hylje: but without breakdowns - i hate breakdowns
16:20:03  <Celestar> snoop__: work-in-progress
16:20:05  <hylje> breakdowns are the win
16:20:06  <hylje> shush
16:20:12  <Jang-> they r teh suck
16:20:12  <Born_Acorn> It needs to be codiferatederisationated.
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16:20:21  <Jang-> particularly when they break down on junctions
16:20:22  <Jang-> ag
16:20:27  <Born_Acorn> Breakdown ftl.
16:20:46  <peter1138> it's been codiferatederisationated.
16:21:17  <hylje> when you do the newmap thing, make sure real elevated/submerged rail would be possible
16:21:41  <hylje> somewhat possible now but quite limited :|
16:21:49  <Jang-> it's the only thing about locomotion that's even reasonable.... the ability to build anywhere...
16:21:51  <Celestar> hylje: first, bridge stuff.
16:21:58  <Jang-> unfortauntely he messed it up big style
16:22:11  <hylje> Celestar: elevated rail would be mostly bridge stuff tbh
16:22:14  <Celestar> Jang-: the interface was the second worst thing I have ever seen.
16:22:20  <Jang-> yes
16:22:25  <Celestar> right after Windows
16:22:36  <Jang-> the signalling sucked, the AI sucked, the building interface sucked
16:23:06  <peter1138> i was going to say the pathfinding sucked
16:23:06  <Jang-> i can build a quick network in under a minute in openttd.....the same thing in loco took about 10 mins
16:23:10  <Jang-> that too
16:23:12  <peter1138> but i'm not sure it had a pathfinder...
16:23:16  <Jang-> lol
16:23:20  <Celestar> peter1138: yes.
16:23:26  <Born_Acorn> but if it has been codiferatederisationated, why hasn't it been committedifericatedinisationerised?
16:23:31  *** Angst [] has joined #openttd
16:23:32  <Celestar> if (crossing) SelectRandomPath();
16:23:43  * ledow put his copy of Locomotion on eBay about 10 minutes after installing it
16:23:57  <Jang-> if (signal been built) { doNotUpdateSignalsInNetwork(); }
16:24:10  <Jang-> that aggravated slightly
16:24:12  <Celestar> the lack of depot was crazy.
16:24:25  <Jang-> it's like... how NOT to do an ttd update
16:24:34  <Celestar> and after 5 years in-game you spent 92% of your time replacing vehicles.
16:24:42  <Jang-> yeah
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16:24:49  <Celestar> only thing it did was eating LOTS of CPU power.
16:24:53  <Jang-> and completely lose motivation to expand your network
16:25:08  <Celestar> expand? by 1915 the whole map was connected.
16:25:29  <Jang-> i suppose... i never got that far
16:25:44  <Celestar> and people in towns obviously fucked each other like rabbits. a 300-soul backwater village turned into a megalopolis in 10-15 years.
16:26:03  <Celestar> just because you built 2 bus stops
16:26:11  <Jang-> yeah, the balance was appalling
16:26:21  <Jang-> ttd is infinitely playable in comparison
16:26:30  <Celestar> even TTO :)
16:26:34  <Jang-> yeah
16:26:43  <Jang-> bah, even RT :)
16:26:49  <Celestar> RRT was a great game.
16:26:56  <Celestar> few titles came close to it.
16:27:01  <Celestar> CIV was one of them.
16:27:21  <Jang-> yeah, there are very few games which have that kind of playability and longetivity
16:27:33  <Jang-> none of the sim titles did
16:27:40  <Celestar> once you have 2-3 tracks stacked at one tile (one bridge, two tunnels) it was impossible to do anything on either of them.
16:27:47  <Celestar> SimEarth was funny ;)
16:27:54  <Jang-> i vaguely remember that
16:27:58  <Jang-> and sim farm
16:28:01  <Jang-> and sim ant!
16:28:02  <Celestar> or SimCity Original.
16:28:04  <Jang-> bizarre
16:28:04  *** e1ko_ [] has joined #openttd
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16:28:18  <Celestar> no crappy 2000, 3000, 4000, or 1701
16:28:24  *** Mucht is now known as Mucht|zZz
16:28:30  <Jang-> 1701? what's that about?
16:28:33  <Celestar> even tho SC2k was decent.
16:28:41  <Jang-> 4k was too easy
16:28:43  <Celestar> 1701 is the registration number of the USS Enterprise.
16:28:43  <ledow> Who remembers Sim Tower, though?
16:28:44  <Jang-> by far
16:28:50  *** snoop__ [] has quit []
16:28:52  <Celestar> ledow: I do.
16:28:57  <Jang-> oh... (i'm not a star trek fan)
16:28:59  <Celestar> ledow: nice game, too few elevators allowed.
16:29:09  <Jang-> ledow: i played it too
16:29:12  <Jang-> quite fun
16:29:14  <Jang-> don't build condos
16:29:16  <Celestar> ledow: it was the first playable game on Windows.
16:29:16  <Jang-> easy money
16:29:19  <ledow> I'd liked the graphics on it - simple but effective.
16:29:22  <Jang-> but caused headaches
16:29:33  <ledow> Little coloured silhouettes of people
16:29:35  <Celestar> "WinG"
16:29:39  <ledow> Urk
16:29:46  <Jang-> right, time to play fussball
16:29:49  <Jang-> bbl
16:30:12  *** Jang- [] has quit ["Using KVIrc 3.0.1 'System Virtue'"]
16:31:24  <ledow> I remember Win32s and WinG and spending ages looking for something that actually could a) use them and b) run faster with them than without
16:32:54  <Celestar> yeah :P
16:33:26  <Patrick`> aah, sim tower
16:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> civ 2 used wing, iirc
16:33:58  <ledow> The only other thing I remember that used WinG was the "Z80" spectrum emulator... but then it was so buggy under windows that you couldn't use it and the DOS version ran faster under windows than the windows version.
16:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and each time i moved my system to another computer, i had to search for those damn DLLs to get it running again
16:35:57  *** Neonox [] has joined #openttd
16:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember installing civ2 the first time under win 3.1 on my 386 dx 25
16:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it spent like minutest moving around some weird graphics, testing something before even starting
16:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> -t
16:37:10  <ledow> That's right
16:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and then the .avis for the wonders did not work
16:37:19  <ledow> it had some weird graphics test thing on it
16:37:22  *** e1ko [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, lack of codec
16:40:01  <ledow> I paid more than my computer was worth for the 4Mb RAM upgrade to be able to run Windows 3.1
16:40:20  <Patrick`> see, this is just silly
16:40:25  <Patrick`> max difficulty for everything
16:40:37  <Patrick`> and I'm making more money than I can spend in 1953
16:41:06  <Patrick`> I'm not trying hard and I've not paid my loan but I'm just happily building a network at my own pace without touching water or farmland, and bam, I have £100,000
16:41:23  <Patrick`> in fact, I just spent 30k flattening fields
16:42:32  <guru3> you're right, it should be harder
16:43:13  *** RichK67 [] has joined #openttd
16:43:20  <ledow> OpenTTD really, really needs  a decent AI player - one that can use ***trains*** and one that doesn't build two million bridges across several miles of water to get to the square next to it's starting point.
16:44:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there something wrong with the prices of newbridges?
16:44:02  <XeryusTC> ledow: go work at openttd.gpmi then
16:44:11  <peter1138> wooden bridges at that
16:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> they cost less than 1 tile of normal rail
16:44:28  <RichK67> lol - i once had the AI do that on my Africa map - spanned the Red Sea (lengthways) twice to travel about 4 squares ground distance :)
16:44:48  <ledow> No point me doing it - I can write you a chess AI or a reversi AI or something like that in a matter of minutes but I'm absolutely CRAP at OpenTTD.
16:45:28  <XeryusTC> ledow: openttd.gpmi allows you to make scrips
16:45:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it can't be that difficult... it mainly needs to use a better pathfinding, and planning ahead instead of bruteforcing
16:45:34  <XeryusTC> so you don't need to edit the actual source
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16:46:37  <ledow> That sort of stuff is REALLY involved.  The decisions an AI can make in OpenTTD are so open, it's got to be extremely powerful or extremely well programmed to be able to compete on the same level as someone like me who's rubbish.
16:47:09  <Patrick`> either that, or we specifically program an AI to follow a set pattern
16:47:18  <Patrick`> which is cheating
16:47:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the AI is cheating anyway
16:47:42  <Patrick`> I mean, of course, the almost mechanical way we lay down a network, a roro or other station as appropriate
16:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause> like terraforming for free
16:47:48  <Patrick`> well, I do it almost mechanically
16:47:51  * ledow did a bit of game theory and a bit of AI for his mathematics&computing degree and still wouldn't like to touch something like OpenTTD AI.
16:48:21  <Patrick`> ledow, there are simple ways to do it
16:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but i agree... developing an AI needs a decent level of code abstraction
16:48:46  <ledow> Patrick`: Granted - but then they become simple ways to beat the AI. :-)
16:48:46  <Patrick`> bus spamming inside towns will make money, but at the cost of royally pissing off the opponents because all the towns balloon
16:48:54  <Patrick`> then airports are literally brainless
16:49:12  <Patrick`> trains are just amusing
16:50:03  <ledow> Road vehicles aren't so bad - choose two endpoints, join them by the shortest path you can (moving the endpoints a little if it makes it easier) and then make a load of buses to go between those stations.
16:50:19  <ledow> But there are so many complications it soon gets out of hand.
16:50:24  <RichK67> afaic the biggest problem in creating a good rail ai is that we only want to allow it to build as fast as us humans, and so it has to recalculate track routes every cycle, since the terrain can have changed in between
16:50:33  <ledow> Trains would be next-to-impossible to get a decent AI for.
16:50:57  <ledow> Anything like transfers would be an ABSOLUTE nightmare to code
16:51:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you paint this thing too black
16:51:29  <hylje> AI cloning the players' tactics could be lame
16:51:30  <RichK67> im not convinced the transfers system works for us humans that well!
16:51:38  <Patrick`> hylje: yes, it would be, but it'd be doable
16:51:52  <Patrick`> ideally a perfect AI would develop network theory and junctions itself
16:51:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well... we need a proper transfer system first ;)
16:51:57  <Patrick`> but, well, er, no
16:51:58  <ledow> Eddi: You could get a playable AI - proof of that is the two we have now.  You'll just won't get one that will beat (or even challenge) an experienced player on a fair basis
16:52:25  <Patrick`> if the AI spammed trains like it does road vehicles
16:52:30  <ledow> AI that has to cheat to win isn't AI.
16:52:30  <Patrick`> and fed every industry together
16:52:47  <Patrick`> can you imagine that? a map filled with short tracks
16:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, an AI is never really intelligent, but you can very well adapt usual real player's strategies into a script, if the script language is sufficiently high level
16:53:24  <ledow> And besides, if I were working on AI, I'd want a very simple, very easy, very nice programming language in which to express it.
16:53:26  <RichK67> i dunno ledow - i often miss good opportunities because i cant check all the source ind=>secondary inds in a big map... AI could check lots, and as soon as cash is available, it builds a track
16:53:40  <hylje> give the AI a lot of money and make it buyout the player when possible
16:53:42  <Patrick`> exactly
16:54:02  <Patrick`> so many times I've missed a 1000 ton industry that has a rating of appalling because I only have 1 train on it
16:57:18  <ledow> An OpenTTD AI would have so many triggers and possibilities it would be amazingly complex - it would have to REGULARLY check all it's vehicles were profitable - determine the cause (the REALLY hard part... did the roads change? Did the bus breakdown more than normal?  Did the bus get stuck?  Did it loop? etc.), and fix it.  It would have to monitor every industry, every city, every station, every subsidy.  For each one of those the amount of
16:57:18  <ledow> processing behind it would be quite large, adding up to an enormous amount of CPU time and searching.  And that's before you even get into WHERE does it build the station, HOW does it get a decent rail path between two stations, etc.etc.etc.
16:57:37  <Patrick`> meh
16:57:40  <Patrick`> do it once a year
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16:57:55  <Patrick`> if a vehicle is unprofitable for 2 years in a row, sell it
16:58:32  <ledow> It's not just as simple as reducing the frequency, it's the difficulty of each particular task.
16:59:34  <hylje> just use a random number generator
16:59:36  <XeryusTC> Patrick`: and what if all vehicles on a certain route didn't make any profit?
16:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ledow: such things need to be supported by the game basics... like a pathfinder that, when it returns "no path" actually means "there is no path" instead of "i did not find a path, because i don't look ahead"
16:59:41  <hylje> and make really random stuff
16:59:42  <ledow> Hell, finding a decent train route around a set of obstacles etc. is VERY hard to describe mathematically, it's not just a matter of plain pathfinding - that's easy when you've done  a course in graph theory.
17:00:14  <Patrick`> XeryusTC: eh, sell the route
17:00:21  <XeryusTC>
17:00:50  <guru3> loading
17:00:55  * Vornicus waits for it to load.
17:01:12  <XeryusTC> heh, i dont have that much upload
17:01:21  <guru3> the suspense is killing me
17:01:34  <Eddi|zuHause> tohse buildings look really ugly
17:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> *those
17:01:42  <Vornicus> ...whoa.
17:01:43  <guru3> really tall
17:01:45  <Vornicus> That's pretty good.
17:01:54  <XeryusTC> the height is a bit of a problem
17:01:56  <guru3> and yeah pretty good ai work
17:02:06  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
17:02:06  <XeryusTC> thank you
17:02:33  * Vornicus doesn't think he'd be able to pull road vehicle stuff off that well...
17:03:00  <Vornicus> ...and these are all municipal bus lines?
17:03:20  <XeryusTC> they are all made by my script :)
17:03:41  * Vornicus is v. v. impressed.
17:04:13  <Patrick`> oops
17:04:24  <XeryusTC> hehe, the script can't tell his own depots from a depot of any other company right now :(
17:04:25  <Patrick`> how can I go back into flyspray and change the category of something?
17:04:42  <Vornicus> Poke an admin
17:04:45  <Patrick`> damn
17:04:54  <Patrick`> admin: I put backend/core for a UI feature request
17:05:09  <glx> XeryusTC: I though you had fixed this
17:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there a particluar reason why my aircraft goes to the hangar and stops there, even though i did not touch it in years? (breakdowns and service are off)
17:05:30  <Born_Acorn> peter1138, how close is newstations to completion?
17:05:37  <XeryusTC> glx: i was working on it, untill i found out that there is that nasty bug in openttd.gpmi that doesn't map depots :(
17:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hmzzz... i cannot autoreplace a zeppelin by a plane... :(
17:06:43  <Darkvater> back
17:06:44  <Patrick`> oh, this guy that wants ottd to support ludicrous screen resolutions, is it actually a hard-coded limit?
17:06:52  <Patrick`> I'm almost certain it's a problem with the OS
17:06:59  <XeryusTC> my AI is still kind of stupid, it doesn't know if it tries to build a station next to a slope road
17:07:03  <Patrick`> there wouldn't be any limit on ottd window size other than integer overflow
17:07:07  <ledow> Patrick`: what's ludicrous
17:07:11  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a max resolution in the code, i think
17:07:16  <Patrick`> 10240x7680
17:07:19  <XeryusTC> <Eddi|zuHause> hmzzz... i cannot autoreplace a zeppelin by a plane... :( <- zeppelins are choppers iirc
17:07:20  <ledow> whoa
17:07:21  <Patrick`> aah, right
17:07:27  <ledow> What's he got?  A billboard?
17:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know
17:07:32  <Patrick`> practically though he has 1600x1200 twice
17:07:35  <Patrick`> to make 3200x1600
17:07:38  <Patrick`> er
17:07:40  <Patrick`> whatever
17:07:42  <Patrick`> it's WIDE screen
17:07:44  <Hendikins> Anyone up for a game?
17:07:45  <Patrick`> and it doesn't work
17:07:50  <Patrick`>
17:07:53  <XeryusTC> 3200x1200 you mean?
17:07:55  <Patrick`> just browing around
17:07:55  <XeryusTC> :P
17:07:56  <Patrick`> yeah
17:07:58  <Patrick`> whatever
17:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> that's dual screen
17:08:13  <Patrick`> left screen wooooiiiide
17:08:28  <Patrick`>
17:08:30  * Vornicus quietly places Homestar off the right side of the screen.
17:08:43  <Born_Acorn> Everyone got the reference!
17:08:47  <Born_Acorn> woo.
17:08:54  <XeryusTC> that's like, one side of my desktop is in a different timezone then the other :P
17:09:49  <ledow> Think we should have a competition: Who can get OpenTTD on the largest screen possible.  Bonus points for billboards in Oxford Street or suitably public places.
17:10:16  <hylje> largest as in size in m^2 or pixels?
17:10:19  <Hendikins> ledow: I could just borrow a laptop and take it to the cinema...
17:10:30  <ledow> A million pounds to the first person to get a 1024x1024 map to show up in a single screen width.
17:10:35  <Neonox> hmm, at work i have 8 monitors :)
17:10:38  <|Jeroen|> wow
17:10:41  <Patrick`> it's in openttd.h
17:11:01  <XeryusTC> put it on a billboard on piccadilly circus (you'll probably need to hire one from coca cola :()
17:11:25  * Hendikins spins latest nightly revision
17:11:58  <ledow> Bonus points for getting a photo of OpenTTD running on those little monitors on airport check-in desks.
17:12:24  <XeryusTC> hehe
17:12:35  <Hendikins> It would probably get photochopped
17:12:59  <Hendikins> So nobody wants to kick my arse? :P
17:13:31  <ledow> I find the thing that limits the speed of OpenTTD the most is actually graphics bandwidth.
17:16:05  <Vornicus> probably.
17:16:44  <Hendikins> No takers for latest nightly on subtropical?
17:16:59  <ledow> My 1Ghz/512Mb laptop with a crappy built-in AGP card beats the hell out of my 1GHz/512Mb desktop with a PCI Geforce MX 440 card.
17:17:32  <Patrick`> same CPU type?
17:18:07  <ledow> yep
17:18:24  <ledow> As close as.  So theoretically the desktop should be faster cos it's not a laptop chip.
17:18:45  <stillunknown> are there any tell tale signs of direct map accessing besides m1. to m5. ?
17:19:08  <stillunknown> what kind of laptop chip?
17:19:17  <stillunknown> and what kind desktop chip?
17:19:44  <ledow> Would have to look it up and laptop is elsewhere at mo.
17:20:17  <ledow> I deal with far too many computers to remember details like specs. offhand  ;-)
17:20:19  <Darkvater> RichK67: ping
17:20:20  <Belugas> I wonder if a string declared by action 04 can have the same ID in the same file but for a different feature....
17:20:59  <Belugas> stillunknown : What do you mean by tell tale signs and map stuff?
17:21:31  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit ["Whoopsy"]
17:21:38  <stillunknown> someone updated a patch and said they removed map accesors, since i keep my own svn copy i was busy updating it
17:22:06  <stillunknown> but i don't know what map accessors, since i've only seen the m1, m2, etc kind
17:22:11  <Vornicus> where can I find the IN?
17:22:25  <Darkvater> INside
17:22:30  * Vornicus beats Darkvater with a pan.
17:22:34  *** wolf^ [i=wolf@pld-linux/wolf] has joined #openttd
17:22:42  <Darkvater> keke ^_^
17:22:56  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
17:23:03  <ledow> Vornicus: just down the road, turn left, don't let him tell you he hasn't got a room for the night.  He tried that on 2000 years ago.
17:23:21  * Vornicus beats ledow with a pan too.
17:23:34  <glx> Vornicus: ask RichK67
17:23:38  * ledow removes his new Teflon wig.
17:23:53  <Vornicus> He's not here!
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17:24:16  <Belugas> stillunknown : m1, m2, m3, m4, m5 and extra.  Those are the only ones
17:24:30  <Vornicus> and type_height or whatever it is.
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17:25:26  <MiHaMiX> ALL: which is correct: committed or commited ?
17:25:46  <Darkvater> 2t
17:25:48  <Vornicus> the former
17:26:36  <MiHaMiX> ok
17:26:39  <MiHaMiX> thx
17:27:01  <Darkvater> sjiet, I still need write MiHaMiX an email ;)
17:27:46  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: you have plenty of times, since I'll attend to a 3-day conference from tomorrow
17:28:02  <Darkvater> ah running from the water? ;-)
17:28:08  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: and will have little possibility to change flyspray
17:28:18  <Patrick`> is there any pressing reason why someone couldn't at least change the max resolution to support dual screen 1600x1200?
17:28:54  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: no, i'm attending to NetworkShop 2006
17:29:16  <Darkvater> :)
17:30:05  <Darkvater> Patrick`: the screen is split up into blocks. If you increase the maximum screenresolution just like this, the blocksizes will increase, and a bigger part of the screen will be needed to be redrawn each time
17:30:14  <Darkvater> which results in slower performance
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17:40:34  <Vornicus> ...damn.  the latest miniIN patch doesn't work on the latest SVN.
17:42:34  * stillunknown maintains stuff in a svn server to make svn changes as acceptable as possible
17:43:26  <Vornicus> there's two rejections - one in economy.c, one in saveload.c that I got asked about, since it looked like an already-applied patch
17:43:53  <Patrick`> Darkvater: well, if you're going to set an arbitrary limit, make it a fairly popular screen resolution
17:44:30  <CIA-3> miham * r4469 /trunk/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:44:30  <CIA-3> WebTranslator2 update to 2006-04-18
17:44:30  <CIA-3> portuguese - 21 strings updated
17:44:30  <CIA-3> spanish - 50 strings updated
17:44:30  <CIA-3> german - 35 strings updated
17:44:31  <CIA-3> italian - 54 strings updated
17:44:33  <CIA-3> turkish - 52 strings updated
17:44:38  <MiHaMiX> ehh
17:45:04  <MiHaMiX> <CIA-3> polish - 113 strings updated
17:45:10  <MeusH[away]> thanks
17:45:14  *** MeusH[away] is now known as MeusH
17:45:31  <MiHaMiX> 9317 bad strings out of 72576 strings (2592 strings / language)
17:45:40  <MiHaMiX> Total percentage:
17:45:42  <MiHaMiX> 87%
17:53:45  <Patrick`> guru3: holy crap, you're the armagetron guy
17:54:04  <Patrick`> thanks for making 50% of the OSS 3d games worth playing
17:54:24  <Patrick`> 33% if you lot hurry up with 32bpp and opengl
17:54:49  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has joined #openttd
17:55:27  <Sacro> wow? thats guru3 the armagetron guy? never realised
18:02:21  *** Antitheus [] has joined #openttd
18:02:53  *** |VillageIdiot| [] has quit ["Leaving"]
18:02:57  <CIA-3> KUDr * r4470 /trunk/ (saveload.c settings.h stdafx.h):
18:02:57  <CIA-3> -Fix: FS#97 ?6?8?8 Possible bug in Win64 versions (by michi_cc)
18:02:57  <CIA-3>  Doesn't fix any known bug, but the code is now bit cleaner. The proper result of subtraction of two pointers is ptrdiff_t.
18:03:21  <TL|Away> KUDr: do _not_ commit between 19:45 and 20:15 CEST
18:03:35  <KUDr> ohh shit - i am sorry
18:03:37  <TL|Away> give the nightly the time to finish his job, and to let other game servers update to the nightly too
18:03:52  <TL|Away> just don't do it again ;) :p
18:03:53  <KUDr> will remember
18:06:45  *** Antitheus [] has quit [Client Quit]
18:06:58  <blathijs> TL|Away: why doesn't that happen atomically?
18:06:58  *** kujeger_II [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
18:07:17  <TL|Away> blathijs: what exactly?
18:07:22  <blathijs> TL|Away: building nightlies
18:07:27  <TL|Away> it does
18:07:37  <TL|Away> of course it does :p
18:07:40  <blathijs> then why is it a problem to commit around nightly time?
18:07:43  <TL|Away> nobody is going to run it every night :p
18:07:43  *** kujeger_II [] has joined #openttd
18:07:48  <TL|Away> blathijs: several reasons
18:07:53  <TL|Away> most important: there are nightly-servers out there
18:07:56  <blathijs> TL|Away: "atomically" != "automatically"
18:07:57  <TL|Away> with not so perfect clocks
18:07:59  *** Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
18:08:16  <TL|Away> and so they can get a wrong revision against the nightly
18:08:32  <blathijs> can't we just publish the current nightly revision somewhere?
18:08:42  <blathijs> simple php script that prints just the revision number?
18:08:44  <TL|Away> I can, I can even call a webpage to anyone
18:08:51  <TL|Away> but still most servers do it themself
18:09:06  <TL|Away> so a while ago we established that we just shouldn't commit anything in that 30 minutes
18:09:16  <blathijs> yes, but then those servers can just fetch that php page and check out that revision
18:09:31  <blathijs> It's not a real problem not committing, though
18:09:44  <TL|Away> blathijs: I suggested that, the other way (I call a script of them), even to use timestamp on the checkout
18:09:47  <TL|Away> it doesn't help
18:09:50  <TL|Away> so to help them out
18:09:57  *** |VillageIdiot| [] has joined #openttd
18:10:00  <TL|Away> it is better to give people the time to do their stuff
18:10:02  <TL|Away> what ever it is :)
18:10:18  <TL|Away> The nightly-system finally can handle the problem of a commit while compiling
18:10:23  <blathijs> TL|Away: It doesn't help, or people won't help themselves? ;-)
18:10:24  <TL|Away> but this wasn't true for a long time ;)
18:10:29  <TL|Away> blathijs: both ;)
18:10:45  <TL|Away> but so short, for administrative reasons, it is better to not do it
18:10:56  <TL|Away> my clocks are 100% accurate
18:11:01  <TL|Away> but not everyone has that luck :)
18:11:09  *** Antitheus [] has joined #openttd
18:11:28  <TL|Away> we have 74 servers active... amazing
18:13:17  <Sacro> how many clients?
18:13:28  <TL|Away> dunno, the counter is broken for a long long time :)
18:13:34  <Sacro> oh right
18:14:30  <TL|Away> Someone should fix that... :p
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18:14:43  <Sacro> yeah, i wonder who the dev is for that area...
18:14:53  <TL|Away> Currently? Nobody I guess...
18:15:04  <Sacro> but who runs the server?
18:15:07  <TL|Away> I do
18:15:18  <Sacro> then surely its your task :)
18:15:20  <MeusH> The sitiuation has changed
18:15:25  <MeusH> no it isn't... kinda
18:15:26  <TL|Away> I am sure it isn't :)
18:15:33  <TL|Away> I just host stuff :)
18:15:38  <TL|Away> I guess Darkvater should fix it :)
18:15:41  <TL|Away> he handles the webpage too..
18:15:48  <Sacro> well thats true
18:15:57  <TL|Away> But the whole master-server should be revisted
18:16:02  <TL|Away> revisited
18:16:18  <Sacro> revised?
18:16:18  <TL|Away> I still vote for a central user-system :)
18:16:25  <Sacro> yeah, i like that idea
18:16:27  <TL|Away> That too, but mostly revisited :)
18:16:35  <TL|Away> Complete with a global score-system
18:16:38  <TL|Away> global ban-system
18:16:40  <Sacro> i was looking into it at one point, and now i have my pc running, i could have a go
18:16:45  <hylje> you mean a like system
18:16:53  <TL|Away> hylje: yeah, only a bit more open ;)
18:17:01  <hylje> integrate IRC into it while you're at it
18:17:09  <TL|Away> Sacro: client side is pretty much done ;)
18:17:23  <Sacro> TL|Away: it was server side that interested me
18:17:30  <TL|Away> hylje: I once suggested to launch a seperate IRC server for it, and let clients join the channel
18:17:37  *** Pipian [] has quit ["Client exiting"]
18:17:45  <TL|Away> Sacro: so then it is your lucky day, it is the only part that really needs to be done ;)
18:17:59  <izhirahider> Why is English, German and French the only alowed languages when you're creating a multiplayer game/server?
18:18:01  <TL|Away> Sacro: but I have no idea if the devs in here likes that or not
18:18:11  <hylje> could be useful to have useful chat tools while searching for game / in game
18:18:18  <TL|Away> izhirahider: I added those languages to show it is possible. The list should have been extended, but that somehow never happened...
18:18:20  <hylje> redundancy*
18:18:49  <izhirahider> TL|Away: Is it possible to filter other languages?
18:18:51  <Sacro> TL|Away: its to do with the server, rather than the game, so as long as its secure and it works, id say it was up to the server admins
18:19:04  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has joined #openttd
18:19:15  <guru3> Patrick`: umm, you're welcome?
18:19:19  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
18:19:32  <TL|Away> Sacro: ps, did you know you can cheat on servers that aren't advertised, but that you can't cheat on those who are advertised? :)
18:19:32  <Patrick`> does anyone know if it's possible to use svnadmin to mirror a repository on sourceforge?
18:19:37  <Patrick`> they only provision for rsync
18:19:46  <MeusH> TL|Away: do you know ELO system?
18:19:50  <TL|Away> SF and SVN / CVS is a no can do anyway :p
18:19:53  <TL|Away> ELO? No
18:19:59  <hylje> an awesome thing would be the ability to receive private messages while playing an internet game
18:20:06  <TL|Away> izhirahider: no, it isn't possible. It should be added...
18:20:07  <guru3> Patrick`: since when was there such interest in armagetron here?
18:20:14  <Patrick`> guru3: probably just me
18:20:19  <Patrick`> although I've not played for years
18:20:26  <guru3> it's gotten much better lately
18:20:37  <Patrick`> TL|Away: well exactly, I want to keep my own repo synchronised with them
18:20:48  <Patrick`> well, the other way around ideally
18:20:50  <MeusH>
18:20:55  <MeusH>
18:20:56  <TL|Away> Patrick`: good luck ;)
18:21:06  <Patrick`> TL|Away: so it's difficult then?
18:21:07  <MeusH> read Elo_rating_system
18:21:22  <Patrick`> they provision for pulling out a backup via rsync, as I say
18:21:23  <MeusH> it is used on ESL internet sports, and it is pretty good
18:21:49  <TL|Away> MeusH: something like that yes :)
18:21:57  <TL|Away> Any scoring system will do in fact :)
18:22:11  <TL|Away> but I always wanted something like that :) Gives the game a more challanging aspect :)
18:22:16  <Patrick`> I recall that there used to be a svnadmin hotcopy setup for openttd?
18:22:21  <TL|Away> and you can have servers that requires a rating of 1500+ ;)
18:22:42  <TL|Away> Patrick`: we have had a mirror between 2 SVN servers, but that was a 100% custom made thingy :)
18:22:47  <Patrick`> damn
18:22:52  <Patrick`> rsync it is
18:23:14  <TL|Away> I suggest just not to use it ;)
18:23:24  <TL|Away> Patrick`: the other solution is what I did with something else for a while:
18:23:40  <TL|Away> make a post-commit script on your end, make a diff of the last commit, and send it to the other end like it was a new commit
18:23:43  <TL|Away> same log
18:23:45  <TL|Away> same author
18:23:53  <TL|Away> then it looks like they are kept in sync
18:23:58  <TL|Away> while in fact it is a re-commit
18:24:07  <TL|Away> downside is that it can break pretty easily :)
18:25:48  <Patrick`> son of a bitch
18:25:56  <Patrick`> I can't rsync on top of the sourceforge repositories
18:26:03  <Patrick`> it's a one-way rsync
18:26:17  <Patrick`> so if they get maliciously boned, it trickles back to me
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18:27:15  <TL|Away> so use my post-commit idea ;)
18:27:22  <TL|Away> you can also do it on pre-commit level
18:27:38  <TL|Away> in fact, that last one was how our lovely svnmirror worked :)
18:27:38  * peter1138 ponders munging pools
18:27:44  <TL|Away> pools rules :)
18:27:49  *** ukdmbfan [] has joined #openttd
18:27:52  <TL|Away> reminds me, blathijs, how did your rewrite of them go? :)
18:28:00  <peter1138> TL|Away: adding a function pointer to clean up blocks
18:28:09  <blathijs> TL|Away: it's finished-ish, but broken
18:28:18  <blathijs> and probably needs a bunch of updating :-)
18:28:18  <peter1138> TL|Away: cos i'm naughty and use allocated memory in a pool
18:28:45  <TL|Away> peter1138: so free it yourself outside the pool ;) Hehehehe :p
18:28:49  <TL|Away> blathijs: why is it broken?
18:28:55  <Born_Acorn> peter1138, how close is newstations to completion?
18:29:09  <peter1138> TL|Away: it seems best to do it this way
18:29:17  <peter1138> TL|Away: then it gets freed when the pool is cleaned up
18:29:26  <TL|Away> peter1138: so add it :p
18:29:26  <blathijs> TL|Away: because it doesn't work ;-)
18:29:27  <TL|Away> hehehehe
18:29:32  <blathijs> haven't spent a lot of time debugging yet
18:29:34  <TL|Away> peter1138: abusing is always a way to go :)
18:29:42  <TL|Away> blathijs: hehe, k k :) Was just wondering :)
18:29:44  <peter1138> :(
18:30:01  <blathijs> peter1138: what are you doing then?
18:30:24  <TL|Away> peter1138: make it clean, and nobody will ever know :)
18:30:33  <TL|Away> We did that enough with pools :)
18:31:00  <Patrick`> how nice, a 403 when I commit
18:31:08  <peter1138> blathijs: something like Station *st; st->foo = calloc(bar, sizeof(*foo));
18:31:24  <TL|Away> Patrick`: lol
18:32:10  <TL|Away> peter1138: an item-free-callback isn't a bad addition to the pool-system ;)
18:32:18  *** Neonox [] has quit ["muss wech"]
18:32:47  <Patrick`> shower of idiots
18:32:50  <Patrick`> yes, yes, I'll just use http
18:32:53  <Patrick`> *https
18:32:58  <Patrick`> not, say, oh, I dunno, SSH
18:33:05  <Patrick`> like anyone with a fucking BRAIN
18:33:21  <TL|Away> Welcome to SourceForge
18:33:31  <TL|Away> we provide free services for OpenSource projects
18:33:35  <TL|Away> just we made it as hard as possible
18:33:42  <TL|Away> so we don't have to do that much work
18:33:44  <Patrick`> fuck it, I'll run my own
18:33:53  <TL|Away> take our layout, it is fucked, unclear, and you for sure get lost
18:34:04  <TL|Away> so don't talk about our CVS, which is as slow as my 100 MHz
18:34:13  <TL|Away> (maybe they host it on my 100 MHz :s)
18:34:27  *** egladil [] has joined #openttd
18:34:29  <TL|Away> or don't even try to spell the world 'search', because we for sure supply you the worst interface EVAH!
18:34:32  <peter1138> TL|Away: hmm, i've done it as a block clean up
18:34:33  <Patrick`> ooi, know somewhere better?
18:34:38  <TL|Away> (sorry, I started to hate SF :))
18:34:45  <Patrick`> I'm looking at berlios and freshmeat
18:34:45  <TL|Away> Patrick`: yeah, I host my own shit ;)
18:34:51  <peter1138> so the called function has a loop for all items in that block
18:34:54  <Patrick`> I'd do that but I got a hard cap on bandwidth
18:34:58  <peter1138> (same as allocation)
18:34:59  <TL|Away> berlios gives me the same layout as SF :p
18:35:01  <Patrick`> it's not like anyone'll check it out any time ever
18:35:05  <Patrick`> but still
18:35:10  <TL|Away> Patrick`: is it a free, open source, project?
18:35:47  <Patrick`> yep
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18:37:08  <TL|Away> I can host some for you if you like
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18:37:49  <Patrick`> I'm afraid I'd be a rather cantankerous and impossible client
18:38:05  <Patrick`> what I really want is a way to host it on my own machine on a dedicated fiber link
18:38:17  <TL|Away> fiberlink, lol
18:38:27  <TL|Away> I just took some servers and placed them in a rack around the AIX
18:38:30  <TL|Away> works nicely ;)
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18:38:38  <Patrick`> oh, and they added another 7 revisions
18:38:39  <TL|Away> !whatis cantankerous
18:38:42  <Patrick`> for NO REASON WHATSOEVER
18:38:42  <jmp_ghli> >TL|Away> Cantankerous \Can*tan"ker*ous\, a. Perverse; contentious; ugly; malicious.  -- , adv. -- , n. | The cantankerous old maiden aunt.--Thackeray.  Cantar cantankerous adj 1: stubbornly obstructive and unwilling to cooperate; "unions...have never been as bloody-minded about demarcation as the shipbuilders"- Spectator  2: having a difficult and contrary disposition; "a cantankerous and venomous-tongued old lady"- Dorothy Sayers  60 Mo
18:38:56  <Patrick`> well, I use it in the context of grumbly
18:38:56  <TL|Away> hehehehehehe
18:39:00  <Patrick`> and difficult to please
18:39:09  <TL|Away> you won't be the first client ;)
18:39:10  <TL|Away> hehe :p
18:39:47  <TL|Away> I can offer you a VPS, with around 10 GB a month or something
18:39:58  <TL|Away> (100 kbit/sec on 95% rule, you do the math :p)
18:40:18  <Born_Acorn> a dictionary bot? :o
18:40:30  <TL|Away> !slap Born_Acorn
18:40:31  <jmp_ghli> >TL|Away> truelight gives Born_Acorn a t-shirt with a text printed on it: "i am a big red lollipop".
18:40:31  *** RichK67 [n=RichK67@] has joined #openttd
18:40:35  <TL|Away> much more then a dictonary bot :)
18:40:36  <hylje> much else bot
18:40:38  <peter1138> hmm
18:40:41  <Born_Acorn> A big bot.
18:40:42  <peter1138> !newstations Born_Acorn
18:40:49  <TL|Away> !!truelight
18:40:51  <jmp_ghli> >TL|Away> I am truelight .|.
18:41:08  <Born_Acorn> no its peter1138! newstations!
18:41:11  <stillunknown> is there a place were it's listed which files should be map accessor free?
18:41:13  <peter1138> oh!
18:41:20  <RichK67> TL: i have those webpages ready, if DV is around to verify them
18:41:27  <Born_Acorn> and peter1138, how close is newstations to completion? I must know!
18:41:41  <TL|Away> RichK67: good! He knows how to add them, so ;)
18:41:50  <peter1138> well...
18:41:51  <Brianetta> I believe Peter said that it was 3K per station away
18:42:04  <TL|Away> !calc 100 * 3600 * 24 / 10 / 1024
18:42:05  <jmp_ghli> >TL|Away> 843.750000
18:42:17  <Sacro> thats not far at light speed
18:42:19  <TL|Away> hmmz, I can't calculate :(
18:42:19  <RichK67> hmm... thats maggie's cost
18:42:23  <Born_Acorn> !make me dinner
18:42:26  <Born_Acorn> :p
18:42:43  <hylje> !tentacles
18:42:47  <TL|Away> ah, forgot a factor 30 :)
18:42:47  <peter1138> TL|Away: hence the malloc ;)
18:42:52  <peter1138> so it's not 3KB every time
18:42:52  <TL|Away> 30 GB :)
18:43:13  <TL|Away> lol, 3kb per station
18:43:14  <Born_Acorn> Well....?
18:43:15  <TL|Away> anyway
18:43:17  <TL|Away> got to go :)
18:43:18  <TL|Away> bye all :)
18:43:20  <TL|Away> have fun!
18:43:22  <MeusH> cya
18:43:23  <Born_Acorn> bye!
18:43:25  <MeusH> !MeusH
18:43:25  <peter1138> exactly
18:43:32  <MeusH> !!MeusH
18:43:33  <jmp_ghli> >MeusH> Extra command !!MeusH is not registered. .|.
18:43:35  <Sacro> see you later TL
18:44:02  <Born_Acorn> exactly what? I must know!
18:44:26  <Born_Acorn> So I can finish the glass station for it. I am lazy also.
18:46:11  <Patrick`> what's the cool thing that lets you browse an svn repo graphically?
18:47:14  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Connection timed out]
18:47:17  <Patrick`> and, can I also use that to let people check out over http?
18:47:23  *** tokai [] has quit ["It's like, wah."]
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18:48:31  <Patrick`> aga
18:48:37  <Patrick`> the answer is "yes" and "yes"
18:48:53  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4471 /trunk/ (12 files): - Pools: Add a facility for calling a custom function during pool block clean up.
18:51:16  <RichK67> wow - OTTD has done 1000 revs in just over 10 weeks
18:52:12  <Born_Acorn> Thats slow. A planes propellor does much much more than that in 10 minutes!
18:52:18  <MiHaMiX> wow
18:52:24  <MiHaMiX> Born_Acorn: lol :P
18:52:34  <Born_Acorn> :p
18:52:43  <RichK67> i created the last IN on 28/1 at r3464... we're now r4471
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19:06:55  <Darkvater> WHY OH WHY do people send me BMP?????!! screenshots?
19:07:04  <Darkvater> OMG he just sent them again but now in PCX
19:07:05  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: same situation here :D
19:07:09  <MiHaMiX> Darkvater: LOL :D
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19:09:07  <Darkvater> 20:15 < TL|Away> I guess Darkvater should fix it :)
19:09:13  <Darkvater> you broke it ;)
19:09:30  <Vornicus> because that's how they're output by the thing, if you don't have libpng when you build.
19:09:46  <MeusH> Celestar, thanks for my new signature :D
19:09:51  <Vornicus> Actually I'm not sure but I think it's set to BMP when you install.
19:09:55  <Patrick`> argh
19:09:55  <MeusH> you rocked :D
19:10:00  <Patrick`> sourceforge, you bunch of wangler
19:10:32  <Darkvater> hehe my mother's awesome
19:10:58  <Darkvater> she's a total computer noob so I helped her out. She was surfing with opera and I tell her to scroll down on the webpage
19:11:16  <Darkvater> she asks, with what? So I tell her with the scrollwheel on the mouse
19:11:37  <Darkvater> at that point she starts to look intensively at the screen looking and looking, but not finding and she finally goes:
19:11:42  <Darkvater> "I can't find my mouse"
19:11:57  <Darkvater> I almost fell from laughing
19:12:03  <peter1138> :/
19:12:27  <Darkvater> and just a note: she does know what a mouse is and how to operate it
19:12:50  <Darkvater> I think concentration somehow just disappeared
19:15:06  <peter1138> bollocks
19:15:22  <peter1138> forgot to save the updated newstationsgui
19:16:44  *** Cheery [] has quit ["Leaving"]
19:17:37  <Darkvater> did you delete them already? ;)
19:17:53  <Darkvater> cause I think if you did, we would be rid of Born_Acorn for good
19:18:01  <Darkvater> he'd drop dead on the spot from the shock
19:18:52  <peter1138> nah, got an older version, with the params in the window data
19:20:06  <RichK67> DV: hi
19:21:10  <izhirahider> Darkvater: Make PNG the default screenshot bitmap extension for OpenTTD?
19:21:27  <RichK67> izhira: i second that :)
19:22:35  <blathijs> isn't it already?
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19:23:21  <peter1138> right, newstationsgui updated and saved
19:23:28  <peter1138> now to combine
19:24:50  <RichK67> Darkvater: ping
19:25:36  <Brianetta> "Throbbing" is such a versatile adjective.  Its meaning is the same, but what it emotes can vary wildly, depending on what is throbbing.
19:25:41  <Brianetta> "Throbbing head" - bad
19:25:47  <Brianetta> "Throbbing heart" - good
19:25:54  <Brianetta> "Throbbin loins" - sexeh
19:26:03  <Sacro> throbbing bankth - illegal
19:26:08  <Brianetta> (:
19:26:11  <RichK67> LOL
19:26:29  * Sacro is here purely to amuse
19:26:39  <Brianetta> That needs bashing
19:26:43  <valhallasw> to amuse or to be amused Sacro"?
19:26:48  * Brianetta goes to BASH it
19:26:52  <Sacro> valhallasw: bits of both
19:27:06  <valhallasw> I was stunned by the large amounts of people that react to ironic jokes
19:27:07  <Sacro> Brianetta: thanks for telling us all, but i thought u had a women there normally?
19:27:23  <valhallasw> in a complete warez channel, someone asked what xbox modchip was the best
19:27:30  <Brianetta> Sacro: Throbbing loins.
19:27:33  <valhallasw> so I reacted: "Does this look like a warez channel to you?"
19:27:53  <Darkvater> RichK67: .
19:27:55  <Brianetta> Bash'd - with my typo corrected (:
19:28:12  <Brianetta> (once moderatoed)
19:28:13  <Sacro> valhallasw: does a warez channel look any different?
19:28:18  <valhallasw> :?
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19:29:02  <RichK67> hi DV... i have some web pages to support TL's compile farm build of the Mini IN... can you test them in the OTTD environment? (its basically the nighlty.php modified to do mini_IN instead)
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19:29:08  <Sacro> presumably everyones running illegal copies of mIRC
19:29:13  *** e1ko_ is now known as e1ko
19:29:20  <Darkvater> so what if openttd is built without PNG support? Doing it as default would most likely even crash the game
19:29:39  <Sacro> Darkvater: default to png if its available
19:29:40  <peter1138> yay, the pool clean up works :D
19:29:53  <peter1138> and so does the gui
19:30:02  <Darkvater> Sacro: too much work ;)
19:30:12  <RichK67> lol - peter1138 is the pool guy ;)
19:30:18  <blathijs> peter1138: what do you need the cleanup thing for?
19:30:24  <Darkvater> RichK67: gimme 10-15
19:30:29  <RichK67> np
19:30:30  <Darkvater> this requires taking a shower
19:30:33  <RichK67> ty
19:30:36  <peter1138> blathijs: newstations
19:30:42  <Darkvater> if 'test' shows up, redirect him to me please ;)
19:30:52  <vondel> complements for the persons doing the new pathfinding: it spotted an error 1000-1500 tiles away (no exit on the center railway of a 2x2 mainline)
19:31:07  <blathijs> vondel: ack :-)
19:31:12  <blathijs> ;-)
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19:32:04  <vondel> after a long time of no playing, i started playing the biggest size map
19:32:16  <vondel> lots of improvements
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19:32:38  <stillunknown> i though YAPF wasn't rail yet, or do you mean NPF?
19:33:05  <vondel> btw: what's the best way to send around 200 trains to depots, so i can start upgrading the network to mono ?
19:33:23  <vondel> stillunknown: where can i see that?
19:33:25  <Sacro> vondel: patch in dev forum
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19:33:59  <vondel> i've not applied extra patches, it's r4454 from svn
19:34:07  <stillunknown> by the looks of your responce you mean NPF (patch option New Global Pathfinding iirc)
19:34:59  <vondel> new global pathfinding is toggled on, so you've guessed correctly
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19:36:27  <vondel> but, is there an automated way to send everything (almost all trains are on the same big network) to the nearest depot ?
19:36:59  <Scia> not if you haven't applied a patch
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19:37:31  <stillunknown> no, but there is a patch in the development forum which may do what you want
19:37:50  <vondel> k, then'll do it the oldfashioned way: place depots on the main routes, so they'll drive into the depots by themselves, and after a few minutes everyone is in a depot
19:38:02  <Scia> but you can make it fun by destroying all trains by letting them cash into each other :)
19:38:48  <vondel> that's the way i did it before drag-train-to-destroy-train
19:39:11  <vondel> get all trains in the same depot, and start pushing lots of 'ignore red sign' buttons :)
19:39:30  <Scia> :D
19:40:13  <peter1138> bah, why does it take so long to compile
19:41:22  <stillunknown> ottd?
19:41:47  <RichK67> peter1138: because when you fiddle with too many things, it has to think... "how the **** do i sort out this mess?"
19:41:57  <peter1138> troo
19:42:17  <RichK67> :)
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19:48:50  <MeusH> Developers: Is property 7 implemented?
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19:50:37  <peter1138> yes
19:50:44  <peter1138> mostly
19:50:57  <peter1138> oh
19:50:57  <peter1138> no
19:51:00  <peter1138> vehicle property 7, hehe
19:51:04  <peter1138> i was thinking action 7
19:52:55  <vondel> what's the 'close all windows' key ?
19:53:40  <peter1138> delete?
19:53:51  <peter1138> yeah
19:54:03  <Sacro> ctrl-c ?
19:54:03  <vondel> thanks
19:54:04  <RichK67> shift delete if you have some on sticky
19:54:12  <vondel> delete did the trick
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19:56:10  <MeusH> Anyone, suggestions for measurement tool are welcome
19:56:17  *** MeusH is now known as MeusH[brb]
19:59:09  *** Scia [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:01:13  *** sw4y [] has quit ["Odletam do paralelniho vesmiru..."]
20:02:44  <C-Otto> what is that? windows only?
20:02:50  *** Mucht|zZz [] has quit ["I'll be back!"]
20:05:48  <Darkvater> TL|Away: ping
20:07:49  *** tokai [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:10:38  *** tokai|noir is now known as tokai|tv
20:12:09  *** egladil [] has quit []
20:12:48  <MeusH[brb]> C-Otto: No, there is a patch also, isn't there?
20:12:50  *** Angst [] has quit ["n"]
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20:12:58  *** MeusH[brb] is now known as MeusH
20:13:49  <C-Otto> ah, i see
20:13:51  <C-Otto> and what is that? :>
20:14:01  <C-Otto> ah, page 2 of 2.
20:14:30  <hylje> :>
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20:18:09  <Darkvater> he
20:18:14  <Darkvater> Tue Apr 18 22:18:00 CEST 2006
20:18:16  <Darkvater> for
20:18:24  <Darkvater> <binding name="translator" value="translator:date,pattern=dd MMMM yyyy"/>
20:18:29  <Darkvater> 	public Date getDate() throws Exception {
20:18:29  <Darkvater> 		return new Date();
20:18:33  <Darkvater> 	}
20:18:46  <Darkvater> shit
20:18:48  <Darkvater> wrong window
20:18:56  <Patrick`> lol
20:18:57  <hylje> zOMG
20:19:38  <Patrick`> "Made insignificant cosmetic changes to cover up the previous commit message."
20:19:44  <Patrick`> aah, commit messages
20:19:55  <Patrick`> I migrated my personal-only svn repo to a sourceforge account
20:20:04  <Patrick`> for quite frankly batshit insane reasons
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20:22:53  <Celestar> hi peops
20:23:08  <Darkvater> 'ello
20:23:09  <MeusH> hi Celestar
20:26:34  *** |VillageIdiot| [] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:27:09  *** MeusH is now known as MeusH[away]
20:30:14  *** kujeger_II is now known as kujeger
20:32:32  <Celestar> hmpf.
20:32:47  <Celestar> aviation-speek is sometimes worse than 1337-speak
20:33:25  <Celestar> "selection of ac ess feed push btn switch to altn, in accordance with ECAM SOP"
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20:41:46  <hylje> jargon is fun
20:44:34  <Belugas> when doing : svn merge -r REV1:HEAD reference_dir,  should REV1 be the last revision or the revision that branch was made from?
20:45:18  <Celestar> hm?
20:45:43  <Celestar> Belugas: if you do a merge from from R1:R2 then the next merge is from R2, not R2+1
20:45:54  <Celestar> because svn merge foo N:N does nothing.
20:46:18  <Celestar> hope that answers your question
20:46:50  <Belugas> Hu?  Ok... Say barnch/32bpp.  Last time it has been synched, it was with r4243.
20:47:07  <Belugas> So if I need to sych to trunk/head,
20:47:09  <Celestar> then you start with 4243.
20:47:27  <Belugas> That's what i've done...
20:47:36  <Belugas> Ok... So there must be something else
20:47:42  <Belugas> Thanks Celestar :)
20:47:48  <Celestar> maybe you missed stuff in the first merge? ;)
20:48:25  <Celestar> bah this MME"L" is a whole 300 pages
20:48:25  <Belugas> yeah, quite a possibility :)
20:48:45  <Belugas> but, for once, it would not be me :D
20:48:49  <Belugas> Or so i think...
20:48:49  <Celestar> lol
20:48:56  <Celestar> how are accessors doing?;)
20:49:20  <Belugas> I've got a new commit for industries coming,
20:49:29  <Celestar> nice
20:49:33  <Belugas> but i'm somehow taking a break on it
20:49:41  <Celestar> ah?
20:49:47  <Belugas> since I've promised peter1138 action 04
20:50:02  <Belugas> and we're dealing with this at the mometn
20:50:33  <Belugas> he needs this for a certain station project.  But I don't know waht it is really for ;)
20:50:39  <Celestar> ok
20:50:55  <Celestar> I'll not do any openttd coding till next wednesday :(
20:51:05  <Belugas> that is tomorrow :)
20:51:31  <Belugas> shit... it is next week for you, since you're already wednesday :)
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20:52:36  <glx> no we're still tuesday
20:52:51  <Celestar> yes we are
20:52:57  <Patrick`> mmm, tuesday
20:53:00  <Celestar> and I'm an aviator. I live UTC
20:53:05  <Belugas> ?
20:53:09  <Belugas> ho... true...
20:53:24  <Belugas> heheh..oups
20:53:36  <Celestar> cu
20:53:54  <Belugas> good week :)
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20:57:53  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
20:58:08  <Belugas_Gone> Good night evryone
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21:02:15  <peter1138> hello
21:02:28  <hylje> olleh
21:02:57  <peter1138> hmm
21:07:10  *** kujeger [] has quit ["Leaving"]
21:11:31  *** MeusH[away] is now known as MeusH
21:11:55  <XeryusTC> why did i misread kujeger for "kut neger"?
21:14:19  <MiHaMiX> err...
21:14:22  <MiHaMiX> svn is down?
21:14:48  <Darkvater> works here
21:15:22  <MiHaMiX> hmm
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21:15:26  <Darkvater> hmm r4470 is kinda incomplete
21:15:38  <Darkvater> where are the pointer changes for settings.c?
21:17:57  <CIA-3> miham * r4472 /trunk/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs): WebTranslator2 commit2 system precheck failed, fix in progress
21:18:37  <MiHaMiX> Total percentage:
21:18:44  <MiHaMiX> 87%     9153 bad strings out of 72576 strings (2592 strings / language)
21:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... someone screwed up with the german translation...
21:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> STR_UNITS_VOLUME_SHORT_SI has "m?" instead of "m³"
21:32:07  <MeusH> Anyone in commit mood? A bugfix I took this afternoon, discussed here
21:32:08  <MeusH>
21:32:28  <MeusH> nosparks2.patch and nosparks3.patch are almostthe same
21:32:49  <MeusH> nosparks3 is more compatibile with future and more electrified railtypes
21:33:06  <MeusH> while _some_ may say that nosparks2 runs better on slower machines
21:33:23  <Patrick`> when was the last time we cared ;)
21:33:27  <MeusH> and this is next "short" patch from me
21:33:31  <MeusH> 2 lines
21:33:37  <MeusH> easy as pie, svn merge blah blah
21:33:39  <MeusH> :)
21:33:47  <glx> nospark3 is a general thing, nospark2 is electric specific
21:35:48  <MeusH> exacly
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21:42:51  <KUDr> hmm : <Darkvater> where are the pointer changes for settings.c? <-- what changes?
21:46:33  <MeusH> From
21:46:42  <MeusH> By Loop:   Firstly one comment - OMG!!!111oneone - how many patches there are for OTTD!
21:46:58  <MeusH> Embarassing:   From: Poznan, Poland
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21:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> hehe ;)
21:52:30  *** Cyberjunkie is now known as Cyber|ZzZ
21:54:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is something odd with the "cannot find path" warning
21:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have some trains that are going almost all over the map
21:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> usually, because they are travelling that long, they cried that they cannot find path short before they arrived
21:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> i wanted to get rid of that message, so i built some waypoints inbetween, and assigned them to the trains' order list
21:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> but that warning is still shown, as if the waypoints are not counted for progress
21:56:58  <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause2: it probably counts from 'last station visit'
21:57:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but it should not...
21:57:20  <KUDr> heh
21:57:50  <KUDr> there are so many things that should work differently..
21:58:05  <KUDr> like in real life
21:58:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> certainly ;)
21:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> but this has nothing to do with real life
21:58:55  <KUDr> it's simulator
21:59:06  <KUDr> so it is quite realistic
21:59:59  <TSC> Eddi: Do you mean the "train is lost" message?
22:00:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes... if that is what it is called in english ;)
22:00:36  <TSC> You can change how soon that appears
22:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> sure, but that is not the point
22:00:49  <KUDr> true
22:00:55  <MiHaMiX> ok
22:01:00  <MiHaMiX> good night folks
22:01:05  <KUDr> gn
22:01:34  <TSC> Counting the waypoints is a good idea too
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22:20:09  <Xeryus|bed> gn
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22:23:38  <black_Nightmare> just wondering but why would the 'replace train' dialog not let me replace asiastar with an older unit (eg TIM) ?
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22:25:15  <glx> can you buy a TIM in a depot
22:26:09  * Born_Acorn drops dead from shock
22:26:28  <Born_Acorn> just as Darkvater prophecised
22:26:29  <black_Nightmare> yeah and whats worst is the tim has much better reliability so I want use these instead :p
22:26:38  <black_Nightmare> (server map is set to normal breakdown helps a lot)
22:26:49  <black_Nightmare> there's like 80 so difficult to do a manual replace at all lol
22:29:06  <Patrick`> it bloody well ought to
22:30:15  <TSC> The TIM is probably obsolete
22:30:40  <glx> but he can buy it manually in depot
22:30:52  <meeps> manual replace
22:30:52  <TSC> Oh ):
22:30:53  <meeps> ouch :D
22:31:04  <meeps> i wouldnt want to be the fat controller on that day
22:31:10  <meeps> :-)
22:32:48  <black_Nightmare> tsc....
22:33:05  <black_Nightmare> the asiastar has 83% reliability and the tim has 97%
22:33:13  <black_Nightmare> I bloody want these 80 trains to be tim's instead :p
22:33:44  <black_Nightmare> weirdly is it'll let me select to replace asiastar with dash/sh125 .. but not EVEN with the sh40/tim units
22:34:06  <black_Nightmare> at least a few 'months' ago I killed one sh40 unit for a tim instead tho :p
22:34:45  <MeusH> cya
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22:35:45  <RichK67> it sounds like it is a diesel only depot... try swapping the train in an electric depot
22:36:22  <black_Nightmare> I figured out why it was doing that meh..
22:36:42  <black_Nightmare> I just had to 'stop replacing' on the greyed-out tim engine (left list) and finally had the option to replace asiastar with tim's
22:36:43  <black_Nightmare> weird
22:38:47  <RichK67> ah - that is to stop cyclical replacing... asia replaces tim replaces asia .... very expensive ;)
22:39:46  <glx> eh it was possible to do that before
22:40:10  <black_Nightmare> well anyway....trains seem to run better now (just a tad slower but doesn't matter) .. :-D
22:40:34  <black_Nightmare> 54 TIM and 34 AsiaStar so far... waiting for the 34 to go down to zero
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22:45:15  <Patrick`> I wonder how big a 4-way cloverleaf would be if you actually tried to adhere to realistic acceleration
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22:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> what's a cloverleaf?
22:48:09  <Born_Acorn>
22:48:31  <Born_Acorn> "four leaf clover" style.
22:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> ah... "kleeblatt"
22:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> who uses such a thing anyway?
22:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> it blocks like hell
22:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> wääääh... HEAD broke my savegame :(
22:50:54  <black_Nightmare> doesn't block...if you noticed the escape lanes
22:51:05  <black_Nightmare> train going into curve are already off any mainlines
23:00:56  <Patrick`> it's not that it blocks
23:01:02  <Patrick`> it's just that it has ass speeds
23:01:28  <Patrick`> plus, you need on-ramps that let your trains build up speed
23:01:37  <Patrick`> better just to make an untidy mesh of tunnels
23:01:50  <Patrick`> and then, perfect curves every time
23:02:00  <Patrick`> or only ever have half junctions
23:04:17  *** KritiK [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:06:49  <DaleStan> Belugas_Gone: Yes, but it probably won't have the desired result. The only thing the feature byte does for action 4s is to skip it if the associated new* is off. So the second definition will replace the first for all uses unless the new* corresponding to the second's feature byte is off.
23:07:30  <Belugas_Gone> thanks DaleStan :)
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23:35:43  <Sacro> evening all
23:41:14  <RichK67> lo sacro
23:42:44  <Sacro> lo RichK67, up to much?
23:43:41  <RichK67> nah - im too tired tonite... started my ottd website tho :)
23:44:06  <RichK67>
23:44:49  <RichK67> i want to collect together all the Mini IN source patches, with short description, and link to authors
23:45:22  <RichK67> and of course, my patches will have fuller descriptions
23:46:20  <Patrick`> ooh, ooh
23:46:25  <Patrick`> do the signal gui
23:46:41  <Sacro> do what to it?
23:46:59  <RichK67> make it work with pbs?
23:48:06  <Sacro> hmm, i could have a go at something i suppose
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23:48:30  <RichK67> btw - sacro - what are your patches??
23:48:55  <Sacro> ive only done a daylength patch, and updated the signal gui
23:49:02  <Sacro> oh, and looking into a loading patch
23:49:33  <RichK67> do you know original sig gui author? or have you picked up responsibility?
23:50:04  <Born_Acorn> wasn't it Hackykid?
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23:50:16  <Patrick`> yep
23:50:21  <Patrick`> and no
23:50:40  <Born_Acorn> Is he the newest Developer to fall off the face of the planet?
23:50:49  <Patrick`> Sacro: also, I think Celestar was doing a bit on the siggui, if you'd make sure you two aren't overlapping
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23:51:00  <Patrick`> I do so hate to see repetition
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23:51:16  <Born_Acorn> wasn't it Hackykid?
23:51:23  <Born_Acorn> Is he the newest Developer to fall off the face of the planet?
23:51:35  <Patrick`> yep
23:51:37  <Patrick`> he fell
23:51:45  <Patrick`> and it was his patch originally
23:51:58  <Born_Acorn> wasn't it Hackykid?
23:52:00  <Born_Acorn> Is he the newest Developer to fall off the face of the planet?
23:52:10  <Born_Acorn> (<Patrick`> I do so hate to see repetition)
23:52:42  <Patrick`> sheesh
23:52:53  <Patrick`> ok, the second time I just assumed it was 'cause I ignored you the first time
23:53:04  <Patrick`> I was intending to answer
23:53:11  <Patrick`> you derailed my sarcasm detectors
23:53:12  <Sacro> i dont recall celestar doing anything
23:53:23  <Patrick`> it was in irc
23:53:26  <Patrick`> I bugged him about it
23:54:00  <Born_Acorn> I remember screaming "REMIND" at Hackykid every day until he finished it.
23:54:01  <Sacro> oh
23:54:16  <Patrick`> Celestar: talk to Sacro about the signal gui
23:54:22  <Patrick`> Sacro: talk to celestar about the signal gui
23:54:30  <Patrick`> I'm off to sleep
23:54:43  <Sacro> lol
23:55:00  <Born_Acorn> Patrick`: talk to Celestar and Sacro about talking to Sacro and Celestar and the signal gui
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