Log for #openttd on 21st April 2006:
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03:00:27  <CIA-3> belugas * r4493 /trunk/ (8 files in 2 dirs):
03:00:27  <CIA-3> Newgrf : Action 04. Beginning of implementation.
03:00:27  <CIA-3> Some TODOs left, but the core is there.
03:00:27  <CIA-3> Thanks to Peter1138 for code, advice and patience
03:00:27  <CIA-3> And to Patchman for letting us define a lot of langids :)
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05:43:00  <Naksu> whee
05:43:12  <Naksu> more newgrf support
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05:43:54  <Naksu> i bet the ttdpatch folk wont like this
05:45:40  <peter1138> they'll just invent new crazy features
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05:49:34  <Naksu> it'd be nice to have a wiki page where you'd have every newgrf action thingy and some sort of ottd progress on it
05:52:13  <peter1138> we've got the source ;)
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05:59:26  <stillunknown> what is this source i hear people speak of so often? :-)
05:59:57  <stillunknown> imo: source is not always a manual, depends of how well documented something is
06:00:16  <stillunknown> (some functions are explained, some are not)
06:04:15  <Naksu> and sometimes you'll run into functions that do everything conceivable depending on the arguments
06:12:50  <stillunknown> is it sane to include headers in just one function?
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06:55:55  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4494 /trunk/newgrf_text.c: - NewGRF: Clean up and reset custom texts
07:03:45  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4495 /trunk/newgrf_text.c: - NewGRF: Implement conversion from old language IDs (bitmask) to new language IDs (value)
07:06:41  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4496 /trunk/ (newgrf.c newgrf_engine.c newgrf_engine.h):
07:06:41  <CIA-3> - NewGRF: switch custom engine names from storing a char* to using the new StringID based text system. Vehicle name
07:06:41  <CIA-3> translations now work.
07:07:14  <peter1138> (dbsetxl in german :D)
07:07:49  <peter1138> (and french, spanish, and english)
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07:41:52  <Darkvater> TL|Away around?
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07:47:14  <Darkvater> peter1138: nice going :)
07:47:25  <Darkvater> so what was the plan on doing it?
07:47:27  <Darkvater> no source here
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08:00:44  <peter1138> hmm?
08:01:30  <Darkvater> what was the implementation?
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08:04:48  <peter1138> add the string to a list, get a unique for that string
08:05:39  <peter1138> then when drawing look up the string in the list, and find the appropriate language
08:05:41  <Darkvater> which list?
08:05:47  <peter1138> a new list
08:05:56  <peter1138> just for these strings
08:06:45  <Darkvater> ah ok, so not changing the .lng fils
08:09:26  <peter1138> nope
08:09:33  <peter1138> can't do that really
08:09:48  <peter1138> as some IDs are reused by different GRFs
08:09:57  <peter1138> so it needs to be mapped anyway
08:10:49  <Darkvater> you mean NEW ID's are reused by differen't GRF's?
08:11:53  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4497 /trunk/ (newgrf_text.c newgrf_text.h):
08:11:53  <CIA-3> - NewGRF minor fixes: (Rubidium)
08:11:53  <CIA-3>  - Remove a define in favour of using the lengthof() an array.
08:11:53  <CIA-3>  - Fix typos in language names enum.
08:11:53  <CIA-3>  - Add Brazilian ISO code.
08:15:21  <peter1138> Darkvater: e.g. 0xD000, yes.
08:15:38  <peter1138> we assign a unique id per stringid & grfid
08:15:41  <peter1138> so they're not reused
08:16:46  <peter1138> btw
08:17:00  <peter1138> are you doing more to the settings list code, or is it unintentionally broken?
08:17:21  <peter1138> settings.c:803 needs to change from item->value to item->name to work
08:19:30  <peter1138> Darkvater: but finally i replied to michael blunkc :)
08:19:36  <peter1138> *ck
08:20:30  <Darkvater> peter1138: hmm, that is very very ugly, and should be forbidden
08:20:34  <Darkvater> peter1138: it's not done yet
08:20:43  <Darkvater> or you mean it's broken now?
08:21:06  * Darkvater checks
08:21:11  <peter1138> i mean it's broken now
08:21:26  <peter1138> it is ugly, but that is the spec
08:22:00  <Darkvater> ah yes that part...working on it
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08:22:30  <peter1138> In addition, TTDPatch defines the following generic text IDs for this action:
08:22:40  <peter1138> D0xx: Miscellaneous graphics texts, unique to each .grf file. At the moment used for callbacks 19 and 1D.
08:25:39  <Darkvater> peter1138: you can change it to item->name if you want and commit, i won't be able to till tonight.
08:25:55  <peter1138> ok
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08:36:11  <ThePizzaKing> hey, it's roboman
08:36:15  * ThePizzaKing waves
08:36:51  <roboman> hello
08:37:56  <Scia> hello robotboy
08:38:12  <roboman> hello
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09:18:47  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4498 /trunk/settings.c: - Use an item's name instead of value when parsing configuration lists.
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09:31:54  <MiHaMiX> -last miham
09:32:11  <MiHaMiX> oops :)
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09:32:31  <Darkvater> hi MiHaMiX
09:32:33  <Darkvater> hi egladil
09:33:00  <egladil_ibook> hello
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09:33:21  <egladil_ibook> though i've already been here a while :)
09:33:21  <Sacro> morning all
09:33:35  <ThePizzaKing> morning Sacro
09:33:55  <Darkvater> egladil_ibook: inactive though ;)
09:34:09  <egladil_ibook> true
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09:37:03  <Sacro> morning ThePizzaKing, you ok?
09:37:17  <Sacro> egladil: are ibooks any good?
09:37:24  <ThePizzaKing> yes, well I think so anyway
09:37:45  <egladil> i think so
09:38:01  <egladil> (that ibooks are good that is) :)
09:39:01  <Sacro> im thinking of getting an intel based mac, they look nice
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09:43:07  <egladil> imac or macbook pro?
09:43:21  <Sacro> im not entirely sure, whats the difference?
09:43:42  <egladil> the second one is a laptop :)
09:44:00  <Sacro> ahh :) well im gonna want to use it for games, boot camp is the thing that grabbed my attention
09:44:20  <MiHaMiX> hi all :)
09:44:30  <hylje> mbp does good gaming under windows
09:44:34  <MiHaMiX> and bye all, bbl evening(?)
09:44:45  <Sacro> mbp?
09:45:08  <hylje> makcbook pro
09:45:27  <Sacro> ah right
09:45:54  <Sacro> didnt realise how expensive OSX is, is that per version?
09:46:35  <hylje> and apple releases new versions quite often (see: microsoft w/ vista)
09:47:06  <hylje> its rather expensive to upgrade, but usually it gets faster while having cool features
09:47:16  <Sacro> hmm true, just found a nice shiny universal binary logo on the apple site, maybe it could be used for OTTD
09:47:19  <hylje> os x, that is
09:47:59  <Sacro> yeah, i suppose thats true
09:50:33  <Sacro> right, bbl all
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09:51:29  <Patrick`> gerra intel mac mini
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11:10:58  * KUDr needs help! -> YAPF for trains spends 50% of time in GetSlopeZ()
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11:27:05  <blathijs> KUDr: That either means the rest of YAPF is pretty darn fast, or something is going wrong ;-)
11:27:58  <KUDr> blathijs: hmm, dunno. I am confused. And dunno if i can use TileHeight() instead
11:28:28  <KUDr> with TileHeight() the YAPF is 2x faster then with GetSlopeZ()
11:28:29  <peter1138> possible
11:29:00  <peter1138> getslopez() gets the height at the position within the tile
11:29:15  <KUDr> yes, i used center position
11:29:28  <KUDr> for current and previous tile
11:29:42  <peter1138> ah
11:29:48  <peter1138> hmm
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11:30:04  <blathijs> KUDr: how do NPF/NTP do it?
11:30:05  <KUDr> it seems as bad idea
11:30:05  <peter1138> but does TileHeight take account of foundations...
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11:30:23  <peter1138> (no)
11:30:24  <peter1138> hmm
11:30:30  <peter1138> damn those implicit foundations
11:30:51  <Darkvater> amen
11:31:11  <KUDr> blathijs: NTP: if ((track & 7) <= 1 && (_is_upwards_slope[GetTileSlope(tile, NULL)] & (1 << track)) )
11:31:28  <KUDr> it's bit cryptic for me
11:31:34  <blathijs> it says
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11:32:21  <blathijs> if (we are on a diagnal track) and (the slope of this tile combined with our trackdir is upwards)
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11:32:50  <KUDr> hmm
11:33:08  <blathijs> anyway
11:33:12  <blathijs> I'm outta time
11:33:14  <blathijs> cya!
11:33:19  <stillunknown> how is yapf doing?
11:33:20  <KUDr> but it looks like GetTileSlope() is also not very fast
11:33:44  <KUDr> stillunknown: tunning performance bottlenecks
11:33:51  <Darkvater> -n
11:34:10  <KUDr> blathijs: cya
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11:42:09  <stillunknown> are #include's ok in just a function instead of file, or is this undesirable?
11:43:02  <KUDr> heh, why do you need that (some macros?)
11:43:31  <peter1138> very undesirable
11:44:28  <stillunknown> i'll remember that
11:48:55  <stillunknown> strange, am i not allowed to declare arrays in header files? (i moved the include and things broke)
11:49:59  <stillunknown> uint32 array[5]; for example
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11:52:47  <KUDr> then linker can complain about multiple instances of 'array'
11:53:50  <KUDr> use 'extern  uint32 array[5];' in header and 'uint32 array[5]' in c file
11:53:59  <Darkvater> shit
11:54:02  <Darkvater> boss-alert
11:54:36  <SpComb> hmm
11:54:59  <SpComb> we need to standardise some boss key
11:55:14  <SpComb> then you could have a workplace-safe software label
11:55:54  <SpComb> for instance the N game has such, hitting tab puts it in boss mode (blank grey screen), and hitting Q closes it immediatly in that mode
11:55:59  <SpComb> So Tab + Q and it's gone
12:02:33  <peter1138> if (everyone(wrote in) == code) {
12:02:50  <peter1138>    then[it] = "wouldn't look" + much_different;
12:02:51  <peter1138> }
12:07:12  <TL|Away> Darkvater: now I am here :p
12:09:15  * XeryusTC greets TL|Away o/
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12:13:17  <black_Nightmare> just curious about it but in the standard (is that its name?) map .. what engines do you like the most?  [with or without breakdown if you want]
12:14:07  <black_Nightmare> for me...if breakdown was off I like the dmu, SH125, U37, Floss, TIM (but wouldn't pick some of these all the times with breakdown on due to reliability issue)
12:15:50  * stillunknown hasn't played default in a long time
12:16:01  <stillunknown> (default units)
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12:26:19  <peter1138> Born_Acorn!
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12:26:59  <peter1138> i tend to play with UKRS
12:27:12  <peter1138> though i should give NARS & dbsetxl another bash
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12:27:46  <black_Nightmare> heh well..when breakdown is off (or their reliability is fair enough) I oftenly like to use the SH125 as quickly as I can.....
12:27:55  <Darkvater> NARS?
12:28:03  <peter1138> north american renewal set
12:28:10  <black_Nightmare> replaced by tim's when they finally come out (since the SH125 isn't fastest anymore by then)
12:28:24  <black_Nightmare> I never used the SH40 that much except when breakdown is on normal difficulity ^_^
12:28:32  <Darkvater> ah USSET
12:33:17  <peter1138> no, not the usset :)
12:33:31  <peter1138> it's similar, but it's all company coloured
12:33:37  <Darkvater> ah
12:33:46  <roboman> yeah
12:39:25  <Born_Acorn> peter1138!
12:41:10  <Born_Acorn> newstations!
12:42:32  <Born_Acorn> Action 4? Don't vehicles already change their names?
12:42:58  <Born_Acorn> Or is this for station names, bridge names etc
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12:50:17  <stillunknown> i'm working on a variable running cost system, let's say you have a very good freight train with a running cost of 20000-25000 a year, what would be acceptable running costs if it (on it's own) carried a total weight of 3000 tonnes
12:50:44  <peter1138> Born_Acorn: yes, and vehicles...
12:50:56  <peter1138> vehicle names now don't have to be english, heh
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12:51:58  <Born_Acorn> So bridge texts will finally change? No "Wooden" for the brick bridge? :p
12:53:25  <peter1138> no ;p
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12:55:04  <peter1138> unfortunately our stringids are quite different to ttdp's
12:55:12  <peter1138> so there'll need to be some sort of mapping in place
12:55:50  <Darkvater> I thought belugas did that
12:56:24  <peter1138> no, this is different
12:56:37  <peter1138> where we've added strings over time, our actual string ids don't match
12:57:35  * stillunknown doesn't see the need of conforming with ttdpatch
12:57:48  <Darkvater> yes but I thought he alrady added the string-mapping tables
12:57:59  <peter1138> not that i know of
13:00:25  <peter1138> it would be a big list...
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13:01:05  <peter1138> it could be done though
13:01:47  <Darkvater> hmm not THAT big
13:01:55  <Darkvater> the wiki has the list; only a 100 orso strings
13:02:01  <peter1138> ...
13:02:11  <Darkvater> of cousre if they start with STR_BRIDGES+421
13:02:14  <Darkvater> then we're fucked
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13:02:17  <peter1138>
13:02:24  <peter1138> that's a big list
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13:03:34  <Darkvater> peter1138: I was just thinking of the string-types. eg company-strings and offsets thereof
13:03:51  <Darkvater> although you can't be sure of correctness
13:04:17  <peter1138> for instance, in 5000 Tunnel and bridge strings
13:04:24  <peter1138> we've remove 5002 and 5004 because they're empty
13:04:29  <peter1138> so ours list doens't match
13:05:33  <peter1138> heh, we also need to map the ttd control codes to our own
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13:17:57  <Naksu> somehow it seems easier if you just exported some sort of a scripting api and made a newgrf module
13:18:13  <Naksu> but then again i have the programming ability and experience of a sack of potatoes
13:23:29  <peter1138> easier in what way?
13:24:59  <Naksu> in the way that to me it seems you're already hooking random stuff and implementing random translation layers inside ottd code :)
13:25:22  <Naksu> of course, i haven't read any of your patches nor could i decipher them :)
13:31:59  <stillunknown> i doubt it is random
13:41:30  <peter1138> uh huh
13:41:43  <peter1138> mapping string ids from one game to another is not random, but... annoying
13:44:18  <stillunknown> maybe create a reencoder for grf files, with the right mapping?
13:45:37  <glx> that will not solve the problem :)
13:46:43  <stillunknown> but it would prevent the need for a runtime "converter"
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13:54:21  <Darkvater> hmm I think someone is right and a runtime converter is if not impossible then very hard
13:54:37  <Darkvater> because you will need to keep your translation table up-to-date with ever string-change
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13:56:32  <peter1138> yes
13:56:46  <peter1138> i think i shall support a few common ones though
13:56:51  <peter1138> renaming bridges, for example
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13:56:56  <peter1138> but not a list of everything
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14:00:20  <peter1138> nobody needs to change STR_02F8_EVERY_3_MONTHS, heh
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14:01:09  <Darkvater> peter1138: hmm i was thinking (again) about the common ones, but that would need new newgrf support
14:01:33  <Darkvater> how much easier would it have been to have had an action4 applying to a bridge-ID instead of changing a global stringID
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14:01:59  <Darkvater> I mean that is totally unneeded for ttdp because well, they don't need it, but we do
14:03:22  <peter1138> well
14:04:04  <peter1138> yes
14:04:09  <peter1138> like with bridges
14:04:11  <peter1138> errrrrr
14:04:16  <peter1138> like with stations and vehicles
14:06:39  <Darkvater> and all others
14:07:00  <Darkvater> There is no point in changin 'Pause' or any other general texts, no?
14:07:05  <peter1138> not really
14:07:15  <peter1138> thing is, bridges already have a name parameter, hehe
14:07:32  <peter1138> called "material"
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14:09:01  * peter1138 ponders
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14:10:43  <Jango> how good is this physics patch? i've never tried it
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14:16:59  <stillunknown> there is a small bug in it which i mentioned in the thread(i may have indirectly caused when i was updating it compile with trunk, because he may have used my patch as a place to begin again)
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14:17:26  <stillunknown> apart from that it's nice (imo)
14:17:34  <roboman> gnight
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14:18:24  <Jango> is it in the IN?
14:20:18  <stillunknown> i don't know
14:21:24  <stillunknown> probably not, since it has smoother realistic acceleration (looking at list)
14:21:52  <peter1138> "realistic"
14:22:03  <peter1138> it's just a minor mod to the existing one
14:22:15  <Jango> whereas the physics patch is much better?
14:22:22  <peter1138> well, it's different
14:22:36  <peter1138> stillunknown's fixed the resolution issue it had
14:23:50  <Jango> cool
14:23:53  <Jango> well
14:24:24  <Jango> hopefully work will continue on it, so that it is appropriate for inclusion
14:25:04  <peter1138> tractive effort! \o/
14:25:27  <Jango> just don't put the brakes on it ;)
14:25:59  <Jango> not sure i agree with the option to remove max-speed
14:26:06  <peter1138> well, i don't
14:26:14  <peter1138> i wouldn't include that
14:27:08  <Jango> actually, IMO, we need to reduce patch options rather than add them... there comes a point where the game is so configurable that it takes days to configure it
14:27:28  <glx> it's not a new patch option
14:27:40  <Jango> if you install the patch,it adds 5 options
14:27:58  <glx> just for acceleration?
14:28:06  <Jango>
14:28:36  <peter1138> 5hmm
14:28:50  <peter1138> well, i did make a version of it
14:28:55  <peter1138> but i didn't add any patch options
14:29:12  <peter1138> i didn't include the RV part though
14:29:15  <Jango> btw, you know the max numbers of vehicles, they shouldn't be necessary if we are growing the pool dynamically?
14:29:38  <glx> I don't see utility af disabling speed limit
14:29:41  <peter1138> they're there for a game limit, not implementation limit
14:29:49  * stillunknown is making a patch which compensates for the ability to go faster than max speed
14:30:11  <Jango> stillunknown: which does what
14:30:29  <stillunknown> variable running costs, and trust me it will make running an engine beyond recommended max speed expensive :-)
14:30:30  <Jango> peter1138: i suppose that's particualrly useful in MP?
14:30:35  <glx> how a vehicle can go faster than it's max speed?
14:30:37  <peter1138> probably
14:30:54  <stillunknown> a vehicle which carries nothing will go faster than a mamoth train
14:30:59  <peter1138> glx: down hill when the brakes fail? :)
14:31:16  <Jango> when you got a eurostar pulling a jinty
14:31:22  <peter1138> personally i would remove all the patch options
14:31:36  <peter1138> and have a single realistic accel option that applies to rvs & trains
14:31:43  <Jango> yes
14:31:45  <Jango> i would agree
14:31:50  <glx> same for me :)
14:31:51  <Jango> although i still hate breakdowns :)
14:32:01  <Jango> probably cos they always break down on junctions
14:32:15  * stillunknown has been thinking of converting the patch to a no option system
14:32:31  <Jango> stillunknown: is the physics patch yours?
14:32:35  <stillunknown> no
14:33:04  <Jango> peter1138: a lot of the options should eventually be abstracted to "easy / medium / hard" tbh
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14:33:12  <Jango> Celestar said that a LONG time ago
14:33:52  <peter1138> yes
14:33:53  <Darkvater> I am fine with simplifying the GUI patch options and doing sane defaults for all other invisible ones that the user can change in the console or config file if he/she wants
14:33:58  <peter1138> well, i use gnome....
14:34:16  <Jango> Darkvater: yes, maybe that's a good compromise
14:34:29  <peter1138> yeah
14:34:42  <peter1138> and no "advanced..." button in the gui
14:34:56  <Darkvater> definitely not
14:34:58  <Darkvater> too much work ;)
14:35:04  <Jango> :)
14:35:08  <Darkvater> if you are so advanced, go edit a text file
14:35:45  <peter1138> ever seen xine's gui options?
14:35:49  <Jango> yes
14:35:54  <Jango> and they are dreadful
14:36:03  <Jango> wmp puts it to shame
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14:36:41  <Darkvater> no
14:37:16  <Jango> i think the writers were a bit too used to configuring sendmail or something
14:38:54  <Darkvater> ss anyone? :)
14:39:01  <Darkvater> I don't have xine, only mplayer at home
14:39:39  <Jango> gmplayer's options aren't greatly better
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14:42:27  <Darkvater> I am not using gmplayer...hate the GUI
14:42:36  <Darkvater> and it's not even working properly
14:42:41  <Darkvater> so I just stick to cli
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15:08:32  <Sacro> afternoon all
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15:12:44  <peter1138> Darkvater: no screenshots, but it's got a "difficulty" option, 'novice', 'beginner', 'advanced' etc... to display a different number of options
15:12:55  <peter1138> (not exactly those words, but pretty much)
15:14:28  <Darkvater> ah, ok. so hides options in easy
15:15:06  <peter1138> yeah
15:15:23  <peter1138> but there are several levels (4 or 5 iirc)
15:15:56  <Darkvater> I see
15:17:22  <stillunknown> what is more desirable, some kind of console setting or no patch settings at all?
15:18:24  <Sacro> what about a cfg file?
15:19:01  <Sacro> maybe with an external cfg editor
15:19:06  * Sacro hides
15:20:37  <Darkvater> yaay, going home :D
15:21:04  <Darkvater> stillunknown: console setting is automatic if you add a member to patches part of the settings
15:21:10  <Darkvater> see you peepz around
15:21:24  <Jango> ciao
15:21:28  <peter1138> back later i hope? :)
15:21:39  <XeryusTC> i like the idea of being in control of what is going on in a game, along with it's settings :)
15:23:20  <stillunknown> @Darkvater: how do you set patches in console?
15:23:42  <Celestar> back
15:23:44  <Jango> wb
15:23:45  <Celestar> hi peops
15:24:11  <XeryusTC> hi Celestar
15:24:23  <Celestar> so whats new, hows progress?
15:25:01  * stillunknown wonders if there is a command to list patches
15:25:50  <Celestar> cat trunk/settings.c? :P
15:26:20  <Sacro> stillunknown: "list_cmds" ?
15:26:43  <stillunknown> that will list commands, not patches
15:27:12  <Celestar> hopefully :P
15:28:09  <Celestar> Tron's still gone?
15:28:31  <Celestar> WHY do we have num_orders?
15:29:03  <Celestar> it is pretty redundant information
15:29:26  <peter1138> remove it then
15:29:32  <peter1138> (Hello celestar :))
15:30:45  <Celestar> well. basically it's ok to have it, but the information stored there can become wrong
15:31:27  <Celestar> <= see here
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15:34:29  <peter1138> scary
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15:43:36  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah.
15:43:42  <Celestar> peter1138: but has been there for a long time
15:43:51  <Celestar> it surfaces very scarcely it seem
15:43:52  <Celestar> s
15:44:24  <Celestar> :o Seagate has a 750GB HDD
15:45:14  <Sacro> impressive
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15:49:49  <Celestar> well.
15:49:58  <Celestar> how can the linked list become unlinked :S
15:50:24  <Celestar> ArmEagle: still working on your bug
15:51:13  <ArmEagle> ah
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15:51:21  <ArmEagle> yeah i wish i could give more info about that ;)
15:51:33  <Celestar> any older autosaves?
15:51:56  <ArmEagle> you mean autosaves between the one autosave where everything is ok and the broken savegame?
15:52:17  <ArmEagle> i could check.
15:52:23  <Celestar> er ?
15:52:28  <Celestar> oh :)
15:52:39  <Celestar> is there any way to reproduce what you did? :)
15:52:52  <ArmEagle> not that i know of yet ;)
15:53:26  <Celestar> it reeks of buffer overflows :S
15:53:52  <ArmEagle> ..still need to find a way to get less cpu% for midi-playback..
15:54:11  <ArmEagle> looks like it is using all software
15:54:18  <ArmEagle> but midi and linux is tricky it seems
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15:55:14  <Celestar> yeah
15:55:20  <Celestar> timidity is kinda strange
15:55:45  <ArmEagle> couldn't find a config file for it yet. need to check other places than my ~/
15:56:34  <glx> did you tried /etc/timidity/timidity.cfg ?
15:57:12  <Celestar> ArmEagle: did you have any newgrfs loaded?
15:58:42  <Celestar> peter1138: what is newgrf_engine.c:252 ?
15:59:03  <peter1138> switch (dsg->variable - 0x80) ?
15:59:26  <peter1138> or 259?
15:59:51  <Celestar> the switch
15:59:58  <Celestar> I mean what does it do?
16:00:30  <peter1138> it picks a parameter based on the variable
16:00:36  <peter1138> in ttdp the variable is just an array index
16:01:00  <Celestar> but how can a newgrf modify the current order?
16:01:05  <peter1138> it can't
16:01:14  <ArmEagle> glx: yeah was going to check /etc in a bit
16:01:19  <ArmEagle> Celestar: how would i check that?
16:01:25  <CIA-3> KUDr * r4499 /branch/yapf/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
16:01:25  <CIA-3> [YAPF] - performance optimization: SlopeCost() for trains
16:01:25  <CIA-3>  - more detailed performance measurement options added
16:01:54  <Celestar> ArmEagle: ok then you didnt :)
16:02:25  <Celestar> KUDr: is NPF really that much slower than OPF?
16:02:33  <ArmEagle> Celestar: i think the problem might have to do with me moving around one of the 2 stations. Adding 'non-parallel' tracks etc.
16:02:42  <KUDr> yes
16:02:46  <Celestar> "moving around"?
16:02:48  <ArmEagle> i did that a lot to get a new station like i wanted it.
16:02:54  <Celestar> KUDr: strange. I never noticed.
16:03:04  <Celestar> peter1138: you do know that PackOrder is 32 bits?
16:03:09  <KUDr> now it is 10 : 2 : 1  (times for NPF : YAPF : NTP)
16:03:31  * peter1138 nods
16:03:35  <ArmEagle> yes first had a 2x4 station. removed one track of 4. then build a shadow station of that about 6 coords away. then 4x5. And finally removed the last 1x4
16:03:52  <Celestar> ArmEagle: er? can you try to reproduce.
16:04:00  <ArmEagle> yeah will do.
16:04:06  <Celestar> KUDr: so YAPF is 5 times faster than NPF? :o
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16:04:19  <KUDr> Celestar: seems to be
16:04:43  <KUDr> Celestar: but i am at beginning only - t will be fater
16:05:06  <Celestar> KUDr: that's a sound I like :)
16:05:19  <KUDr> now i want to add 'segment cost cache'
16:05:37  <Celestar> KUDr: it works for all vehicles now?
16:05:54  <KUDr> it spends 90% of time in segment cost calculations
16:06:23  <peter1138> Celestar: nothing checks that var anyway, heh
16:06:39  <KUDr> Celestar: yes, but for trains there are still mising some checks like owner/railtype/and so on
16:07:22  <Celestar> KUDr: ah I see. so mostly minor stuff.
16:07:37  * Celestar wonders how well one can merge the "bridge" and the "yapf" branch :P
16:08:25  <peter1138> :)
16:08:25  <Born_Acorn> peter1138! newstations!
16:08:35  <peter1138> never!
16:08:38  <Born_Acorn> yeser!
16:08:44  <KUDr> Celestar: yes - minor. With that bridge - i must learn how it works, then it should not be a problem
16:09:11  <Celestar> Born_Acorn: I think peter's doing some progress with it, inne?
16:10:16  <Celestar> ok I'm out a bit
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16:19:20  <peter1138> KUDr: have you got tunnels working?
16:19:30  <KUDr> yes
16:20:51  <peter1138> then bridges won't be a problem
16:21:01  <KUDr> good
16:21:26  <KUDr> so from beginning i jump to the end?
16:21:38  <Celestar> yes
16:21:42  <KUDr> fine
16:21:53  <KUDr> and no signals on bridge?
16:21:57  <Celestar> ArmEagle: which station on you working on.
16:22:09  <Celestar> KUDr: not yet, a possibly not in near future (apart from bridge heads)
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16:22:21  <KUDr> ok
16:22:29  <Celestar> bridge heads will have signals
16:22:30  <ArmEagle> Celestar: that was Lower Credston (sawmill)
16:22:34  <Celestar> ArmEagle: ok
16:22:41  * Celestar goes digging for the bug.
16:22:44  <ArmEagle> though i think it could also be caused by replacing the engines
16:22:53  <KUDr> then PBS can make the signals on bridge unneccessary
16:23:20  <KUDr> the same for tunnels
16:23:42  <ArmEagle> from double Ginzu 'A4' to double SH '8P'
16:23:56  <ArmEagle> but i just did it like i did it before. and no problem atm
16:24:04  <ArmEagle> trying to let some years pass..
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16:24:46  <peter1138> KUDr: not if you've got two long one-way bridges next to each other
16:24:59  <peter1138> then you might want one-way signals spaced along them
16:25:25  <Born_Acorn> I heard signals on bridges!
16:25:27  <Born_Acorn> woo!
16:25:43  <peter1138> shush
16:25:50  <KUDr> peter1138: this i want to handle by pbs - long linear one-way segments
16:25:51  * Born_Acorn tells everyone and gets their hopes built up, and puts all responsibility for it on peter1138
16:25:51  <peter1138> go and finish your graphics
16:26:21  <Born_Acorn> Now if there are not any signals on bridges, an angry mob will castrate you!
16:26:42  <Born_Acorn> (no pressure)
16:27:18  <Celestar> ArmEagle: I hope you have monthly autosaves? ;)
16:27:57  <ArmEagle> no sorry ;P
16:28:01  <ArmEagle> but will change that now.. who nows.. it might happen again
16:29:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> KUDr: how do you plan to handle breakdowns then?
16:29:33  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: breaking distance
16:29:49  <Celestar> distance between 2 trains == 2.5x breaking distance
16:30:04  <Celestar> BAH
16:30:18  <Celestar> what is this ReplaceVehicle function?
16:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> what is the breaking distance between 2 ICE3?
16:30:28  <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause2: the same like traffic jam - train is there and doesn't move
16:31:08  <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause2: distance will depend on the speed of both trains
16:31:09  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: realistically? 4km.
16:31:15  <Celestar> er 4 minutes.
16:31:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> KUDr: what i meant is: if one train breaks down, how do you tell the other train to stop?
16:31:32  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: so you can compute that for yourself at about 80m/s
16:31:42  <Celestar> 19km.
16:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> see... that is far beyond any visual control
16:32:11  <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause2: the same like red signal
16:32:31  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: an ICE3 from 350km/h needs about 5km to a stop in emergency-brake mode.
16:32:43  <KUDr> there will be automatic virtual signals
16:32:51  <Celestar> and about 10km to a stop in lets say a less destructive braking action.
16:33:01  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: ICE3 don't have or use signals ;)
16:33:02  <peter1138> 17:30 < Celestar> what is this ReplaceVehicle function?
16:33:08  <peter1138> presumably it replaces vehicles...
16:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> then all passengers are in the front vehicle ;)
16:33:12  <Celestar> peter1138: it does this weirdly :)
16:33:40  <peter1138> it buys a new vehicle...
16:33:55  <peter1138> so that could be fucking up your orders
16:33:56  <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause2: who cares about passengers that paid already
16:33:58  <Celestar> well, normally we FIRST sell the vehicle, and THEN buy a new one.
16:34:19  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: you can't watch signals at 80m/s :)
16:34:25  <peter1138> ah
16:34:29  <Celestar> actually. you don't need a drver at 80+m/s
16:34:33  <peter1138> i think orders are precisely the reason it buys then sells
16:34:38  <peter1138> if you sell first, you lose the orders
16:34:46  <ArmEagle> Celestar: check at that speed you simply have controllers ;P
16:34:55  <Celestar> peter1138: no, we have "BackeuppedOrders"
16:35:02  <peter1138> hmm
16:35:15  <Celestar> but that loses the cargo .. hmmz
16:35:39  <Celestar> .oO(it's not that one would replace a wagon full of passengers, but wth)
16:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> we need a "replace vehicle" button in the depot...
16:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> not just autoreplace
16:36:19  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: make one :)
16:36:22  <ArmEagle> hmm got another bug, maybe related..
16:36:33  <Celestar> ArmEagle: go ahead?
16:36:35  <ArmEagle> if got train 6 swith shared orders to 7 and 8.
16:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> the functions are all there in autoreplace, right?
16:36:54  <ArmEagle> i put 6 in depot, sell locomotivs
16:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> so all it needs is a proper gui
16:37:02  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause2: and a command.
16:37:10  <Celestar> ArmEagle: ok.
16:37:15  <ArmEagle> buy 2 new ones. put those in front of the wagons,
16:37:18  <ArmEagle> then ahve a new train 6.
16:37:27  <ArmEagle> then 6 has the old orders. but usnhared
16:37:34  <ArmEagle> and 7, 8 have one empty order.
16:37:40  <Celestar> ArmEagle: :o
16:37:46  <ArmEagle> i can delete that empty order, but can't delete the shared orders
16:37:49  <Celestar> standby trying to reproduce.
16:37:53  <Celestar> ArmEagle: I think you have it :)
16:38:49  <ArmEagle> though i'm not sure whether that other problem was caused exactly the same way. but i guess this should satisfy enough for now ;P
16:39:00  <ArmEagle> hmm perhaps..
16:39:26  <ArmEagle> testing one more thing..
16:39:36  <ArmEagle> that is adding both statiosn to 7 & 8 again..
16:39:48  <Celestar> ArmEagle: 7 and 8 do not have an empty order for me in that case.
16:40:01  <Celestar> ArmEagle: give me the savegame you are working on an talk me through
16:40:17  <ArmEagle> let me try to reproduce it again after i try this one thing
16:40:33  <Celestar> ArmEagle: wait
16:40:36  <Celestar> I *think* I have it
16:40:47  * Celestar makes a debug build
16:41:06  <ArmEagle> ah check. now 7&8 stillhave a null order
16:41:21  <Celestar> ArmEagle: you *may* have found a way to reproduce one of the longer residual bugs.
16:41:48  * ArmEagle is tempted to cheer too early ;P
16:42:24  <Celestar> ok
16:42:26  <Celestar> yes.
16:42:28  <Celestar> that's it
16:42:35  * Celestar tries to reproduce what happens
16:42:40  <ArmEagle> ..later i replaced engines. by buying new ones first. add those to the original train. then delete the old ones
16:42:49  <ArmEagle> that didn't cause problems
16:43:34  <Celestar> I know what causes the problem
16:43:37  <Celestar> :
16:43:38  <Celestar> )
16:43:39  <ArmEagle> good
16:44:24  <ArmEagle> hmm.. though now the game doesn't crash when i add a new order..
16:45:45  <ArmEagle> (to train 7/8's shared orders list, when they don't have a 'next order' selected.)
16:46:25  <ArmEagle> ..that originally did crash the game. if i skipped orders so one was selected again, i could add a new order again.
16:47:02  <ArmEagle> (selected here is not that the order is 'white' but that one number order has that arrow pointing to it..)
16:47:10  <ArmEagle> *numbered
16:47:49  <Celestar> peter1138: ping
16:48:12  <ArmEagle> anyway, you go fix the bug you found. that will prevent it anywayi guess.
16:49:03  <Celestar> yes it will
16:49:05  <Celestar> it's the same bug
16:49:22  <peter1138> pong
16:49:29  <ArmEagle> ..well i meant that it doesn't crash now.. thats still weird
16:50:17  <Celestar> peter1138: help needed.
16:50:50  <Celestar> with problem-in-question
16:51:05  * Celestar tries to reproduce on a new savegame
16:51:13  <ArmEagle> ;)
16:52:50  <Celestar> WTF?
16:52:52  <Celestar> I can't
16:52:54  <ArmEagle> hmm doesn't go wrong on this brand new game.. retrying ;)
16:53:38  <Celestar> so ..
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16:54:43  <ArmEagle> hmm funny. still doesn't go wrong ;)
16:55:34  <Celestar> so something might  be wrong in the "noprob" game already :o
16:55:44  <ArmEagle> yup
16:57:43  <ArmEagle> check. goes wrong in a 'good' savegame.
16:57:49  <ArmEagle> funny ;)
16:57:52  <Celestar> hm :S
16:58:05  <ArmEagle> oh wait.. hmm..
16:58:21  <ArmEagle> ok.. well.
16:58:29  <ArmEagle> if i delete both engines of train 6 here.
16:58:41  <ArmEagle> then 7 & 8 lose their orders (empty #1)
16:58:57  <ArmEagle> but if i add a new engine creating train 6 again, then they get the order back..
16:59:21  <ArmEagle> lets see whether that stil lgives a null order..
16:59:31  <ArmEagle> ..nope all ok.
17:01:14  <Vornicus> hm
17:01:25  <Vornicus> is the mini_in patch on the forum the most recent one?
17:02:20  <Celestar> ok got it
17:02:29  <Celestar> it goes wrong when selling the first vehicle
17:02:54  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4500 /trunk/newgrf_engine.c: - NewGRF: When running a callback with no vehicle, use the purchase list 'cargo' type first, and then fallback to the default if needed.
17:04:06  <Celestar> oh even better
17:04:09  *** |VillageIdiot| [] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:04:12  <Celestar> I can trigger an assertion :o
17:04:23  <ArmEagle> hmm got a game now where i sold engines from train 6, rebought 2. traisn 7&8 have shared orders. and train 6 has normal orders. but if i delete an order from 6, then tis deleted from 7&8 too..
17:06:09  <Celestar> peter1138: RFC: train_cmd.c:1313ff. copy of prev_shared && next_shared missing.
17:06:13  *** DJ_Mirage [] has joined #openttd
17:06:54  <peter1138> hmm
17:06:59  <peter1138> looks bad, yeah
17:07:20  <peter1138> DrawStringMultiLine() would be far more useful if it returned the number of lines drawn...
17:07:42  <Celestar> peter1138: that doesn't solve the assertion tho :O
17:07:46  <ArmEagle> ..though this still all goes ok, when i try to reproduce in a brand new game. (though i keep all engines simply in the depot).
17:07:47  <peter1138> hmm
17:08:05  <ArmEagle> .. s/engines/trains/
17:08:06  <Celestar> peter1138: I kow why.
17:08:30  <Celestar> peter1138: in that very same case, the prev_shared and next_shared VEHICLES need to have updated next_shared and prev_shared pointers :o
17:08:45  <peter1138> yup
17:09:47  <ArmEagle> just an idea.. but wouldn't it help if you create an order queue (and can manage them). And then assign trains to the orders?
17:10:35  <Celestar> ArmEagle: we have an order queue. just no GUI to it :P
17:11:17  <Celestar> WEE
17:11:19  <Celestar> it seems to work
17:12:15  <Celestar> committing fix.
17:12:32  <peter1138> oh, i got 4500 :D
17:13:34  <ArmEagle> still.. weird that i've seen it go bad in different gradations.. ;)
17:13:58  <Vornicus> dammit!
17:14:15  <Vornicus> the mini_IN doesn't build on my computer!
17:14:44  *** jnmbk [n=ugur@] has joined #openttd
17:15:10  <CIA-3> celestar * r4501 /trunk/train_cmd.c:
17:15:10  <CIA-3> -Fix: (FS#129) When, in a train that head multiple engines in front, the _first_
17:15:10  <CIA-3> of those engines is sold, all the orders are copied to the second engine (to
17:15:10  <CIA-3> ensure "seamless" operation). However, during this operation, it was forgotten
17:15:10  <CIA-3> to update the prev_shared and next_shared pointers of the new head engine AND
17:15:11  <CIA-3> the next_shared and prev_shared of the share partners.
17:15:46  <Celestar> ..
17:15:47  <Celestar> ...
17:15:55  <Celestar> does that commit message make ANY sense at all?
17:16:16  <hylje> too, incorrect grammar
17:16:17  <Celestar> Darkvater: this time, you screwed it ^^
17:16:28  *** jnmbk [n=ugur@] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:16:34  <Celestar> bah, been on a conference the past days, can't think straight :P
17:17:05  <ArmEagle> i think it does.. to one of the programmers ;)
17:17:22  <Celestar> that "one" being me?
17:17:40  <Celestar> WEE one critical bug down
17:17:52  * ArmEagle cheers for Celestar
17:18:09  <Celestar> well, it was worth the effort :)
17:18:12  <ArmEagle> though.. why doesn't it totally mess up in a brand new game?
17:18:26  <Celestar> well it does.
17:18:35  <ArmEagle> not when i tried ;)
17:18:43  <Celestar> it just implies that you have two engines behind one another
17:19:48  <ArmEagle> ..i did make multi-headed trains there..
17:19:50  <ArmEagle> made two ctrl-clones
17:20:11  <Celestar> which engine did you delete first?
17:20:14  <ArmEagle> gave orders to 2 stations.
17:20:22  <ArmEagle> 'binned' the 2 engines of the first train (last engine first)
17:20:33  <ArmEagle> and other 2 traisn kept their orders
17:20:36  <Celestar> yes
17:20:47  <Celestar> you will only trigger it, if you delete the FIRST engine first.
17:20:52  *** jnmbk [n=jnmbk@] has joined #openttd
17:20:58  <Celestar> s/,//
17:20:59  *** _Red [] has joined #openttd
17:21:00  <ArmEagle> hmm i'm pretty sure i've always deleted the second engine first
17:21:03  *** Angst [] has joined #openttd
17:21:10  <Celestar> ArmEagle: I'm pretty sure you didn't
17:21:13  <ArmEagle> ;P
17:21:19  <Celestar> or at least the replace vehicle system didn't
17:21:25  <ArmEagle> ok.. how do i get the svn?
17:21:52  <Celestar> svn co svn:// $YOUR_DESTINATION_DIRECTORY
17:22:30  <ArmEagle> btw.. after i've compiled.. is there any way to remove alll sources, and jsut keep the 'binary' stuff?
17:22:39  <Celestar> rm *.[ch]
17:22:43  <Celestar> but why do it?
17:22:49  <ArmEagle> yeah dunno ;)
17:23:34  <Celestar> it's not that they eats lots of disk space.
17:23:37  <ArmEagle> anyway, should go make dinner. will try to reproduce the bug again ;)
17:23:41  <Celestar> this isn't the linux kernel
17:23:45  <Celestar> ArmEagle: k :)
17:23:46  <ArmEagle> hehe
17:24:06  <ArmEagle> bah.. already finished compiling.. ;)
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17:26:01  <Celestar> me wonders when the 2.9 kernel will be released.
17:28:12  <ArmEagle> hmm k, well looks ok. gratz ;)
17:28:33  <Celestar> peter1138: <= does this make any sense to you?
17:29:46  <Celestar> KUDr: how much do you know about OPF?
17:30:07  <KUDr> not much - i know how it works
17:30:26  <KUDr> but not all flags are known to me
17:30:54  <Celestar> could you make up what "disable_tile_hash" might do?
17:31:11  <Celestar> and KUDr did you play around with the Makefile in yapf?
17:32:01  <Celestar> I get tons of warnings :(
17:32:10  <KUDr> Makefile - not much - it works with some warnings - i am not makefile guru so i can't repair it
17:32:25  <Celestar> ok
17:32:29  <Celestar> I'll see what I can do
17:32:47  <KUDr> i am stupid mouse-clicking windoze user
17:32:57  <KUDr> sorry for that
17:34:23  <Celestar> np^^
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17:35:20  <Celestar> peter1138: do you mess around in Makefiles sometimes?
17:35:35  *** ledow [] has left #openttd []
17:36:00  <Vornicus> makefiles are evil
17:36:57  <Celestar> hm KUDr some RV problems I have here?
17:37:22  <KUDr> good - describe and provide savegame
17:37:30  <Celestar> yes will do
17:37:35  <Celestar> trying to isolate first
17:37:54  <KUDr> the biggest problem i have now is that i have no testers
17:38:44  *** sw4y [] has joined #openttd
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17:41:04  <MeusH> hello
17:41:55  <Celestar> KUDr: accept DCC, observe purple busses (the 4 ones in the center of the screen) doing weird things
17:42:40  <KUDr> no incomming DCC
17:42:47  <Celestar> bah
17:42:52  * Celestar kills DCC
17:42:54  <KUDr> try it again
17:43:41  <Celestar> now?
17:44:21  <KUDr> got
17:44:29  <Celestar> good
17:44:37  <Celestar> bah I need a fatter uppipe
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17:51:04  <CIA-3> celestar * r4502 /trunk/ (ai/default/default.c viewport.c): -Cleanup: Remove code unused since rev1. (Rubidium)
17:51:47  <Sacro> KUDr: set up a windows binary and a network server :)
17:52:34  <KUDr> Sacro: don't understand
17:53:02  <Celestar> KUDr: <= Request for comments
17:53:11  <Sacro> KUDr: ask on the forum, run a server, get people to test, worked for elrails
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17:53:42  <KUDr> Sacro: i need SP tests first
17:53:55  <KUDr> then the forum will help i hope
17:53:56  <Sacro> KUDr: what vehicles?
17:54:11  <KUDr> nearly all types
17:54:17  <KUDr> trains are incomplete
17:54:27  <KUDr> but will work soon
17:54:29  <Celestar> hm
17:54:32  <Sacro> well i mainly use trains, but then thats cos the RV pathfinder used to be pants
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17:56:22  <Celestar> where's RichK?
17:56:26  <Celestar> haven't seen him in a while
17:56:36  <MeusH> he was here yesterday
17:56:50  <MeusH> or today. Whatever, he was here ~midnight
17:57:17  <Celestar> ok
17:58:10  *** meeps [] has joined #openttd
17:58:18  <Celestar> I really really like the terragenesis stuff
17:58:18  *** SmileyG [n=tim@pdpc/supporter/student/SmileyG] has joined #openttd
17:58:24  * meeps holds #openttd
17:58:35  <meeps> :D
17:58:38  <SmileyG> azio?
17:58:42  <meeps> :>
17:58:43  <SmileyG> :D
17:58:46  <meeps> i have been discovered
17:58:47  * meeps hides
17:58:54  <SmileyG> get your butt in #freenode and #spinhome :P
17:59:06  <meeps> oh
17:59:07  <meeps> no kiddding
17:59:12  <meeps> your on freenode usually?
17:59:18  <SmileyG> yes
17:59:21  <SmileyG> ask lilo :]
17:59:22  <Celestar> what exactly are you talking about?
17:59:37  <SmileyG> sorry Celestar, i know meeps from quakenet, he pointed me here and to the game...
17:59:43  <Celestar> ah :)
17:59:44  <SmileyG> is it easy for noobies to start?
17:59:55  <Celestar> if you have the original game yes :)
18:00:05  <SmileyG> ahahah nope
18:00:08  <SmileyG> i've never heard of it/.
18:00:18  <Celestar> but you (still) need the original data files :(
18:00:37  <Celestar> the rest is rather easy
18:00:39  <KUDr> [19:55:05] <Celestar> KUDr: <= Request for comments <-- yes, it is understandable and seems to be correct solution
18:00:42  <SmileyG> you do? :(
18:00:51  <SmileyG> well thats errr bugged it up :(
18:01:24  <Celestar> SmileyG: yeah, there are efforts to create own artwork.
18:01:31  <Celestar> but they're not finished.
18:01:39  <SmileyG> ok, could i legally get the files ?
18:01:54  <Celestar> purchase the game :P
18:02:01  <Celestar> (which is close to impossible)
18:02:16  <SmileyG> hum
18:02:22  <Celestar> the legal status of the data files is unknown.
18:02:24  <SmileyG> and how frowned upon is an illegal copy?
18:02:49  *** tokai [] has quit ["It's like, wah."]
18:03:01  <SmileyG> as i would love to try the game
18:03:04  <SmileyG> but heh
18:03:16  <Celestar> then "borrow" the datafiles of a friend who has the game :)
18:03:17  <Sacro> SmileyG: it is available...
18:03:48  *** Trippledence [] has joined #openttd
18:03:49  <SmileyG> ok let me put it simpl;ly
18:03:54  <Celestar> ^^
18:03:56  <SmileyG> i can't grab torrents, and limewire doesn't work
18:03:59  <SmileyG> >_<
18:04:04  * SmileyG realises something and rushes off
18:04:08  <Celestar> SmileyG: the datafiles are like 4 MB :P
18:04:12  * Sacro taps his foot, looks around, and coughts under his breath
18:04:23  <Sacro> s/coughts/coughs
18:04:29  <SmileyG> Oh.... i think i might just errm visit this forum
18:05:03  <Sacro> SmileyG: you should, its got some quite ...interesting information
18:05:30  * Celestar browser further through the bug reports.
18:05:43  <Celestar> peter1138: dyou have any newstats diff I could test? ;)
18:05:46  * Sacro pictures Celestar with a room full of printouts
18:05:58  <SmileyG> :D
18:06:01  <SmileyG> erm
18:06:04  <Celestar> Sacro: that pictures is not far from reality
18:06:05  <SmileyG> this is a big list...
18:06:22  <Celestar> Sacro: only that I'm not in a room full of bug reports :)
18:06:33  <SmileyG> as im in linux, i can't use an exe right?
18:06:53  <Celestar> no
18:06:56  <SmileyG> heh
18:07:04  <SmileyG> how would i go about getting the files then :op
18:07:05  <Celestar> but there are linux binaries and the source code :P
18:07:06  <Sacro> yeah, wine
18:07:07  <SmileyG> am i being dumb or something
18:07:10  <SmileyG> wine?
18:07:14  <SmileyG> i aint installing wine -
18:07:14  <Celestar> SmileyG: nope.
18:07:18  <Celestar> you need the orignial DATAFILES.
18:07:25  <Celestar> (sounds, pictures and stuff)
18:07:31  <SmileyG> so i need to install it somewhere...
18:07:32  <SmileyG> hum
18:07:39  <Celestar> and trg*.grf
18:07:50  * Sacro makes sure noones paying attention to the previous link, especially the Transport Tycoon Deluxe (Windows) section...
18:07:50  <SmileyG>  Also includes the file, for if you want to install OTTD.
18:07:53  <SmileyG> something which said that?
18:08:22  <Sacro> and they come in handy - dandy zipped files
18:08:23  *** webfreakz [n=Ronald@] has joined #openttd
18:08:32  <Celestar> hey webfreakz
18:08:38  <webfreakz> ey
18:09:01  * Celestar points SmileyG to
18:10:03  *** Andrew67 [i=andrew67@] has quit [Client Quit]
18:10:08  <webfreakz> celestar: do you have any idea on how I should use this function?
18:11:07  <Celestar> webfreakz: YAPF?
18:11:23  <webfreakz> yes
18:11:34  <Celestar> webfreakz: you mean the pathfinder or the performance timer?
18:11:44  <webfreakz> the timer
18:11:54  <Celestar> ask KUDr, it's his timer ^^
18:12:05  <webfreakz> i did
18:12:15  <webfreakz> but he's away or something
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18:12:19  *** Andrew67` [n=andrew67@] has joined #openttd
18:12:19  <webfreakz> ^^
18:12:20  *** Andrew67 [n=andrew67@] has quit [Client Quit]
18:12:20  <Celestar> well if you have a debug build, all the stuff gets printed to stdout.
18:12:23  *** Andrew67` [n=andrew67@] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
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18:12:33  <webfreakz> how can i use stdout?
18:12:41  <webfreakz> just the openttd-in-game-console?
18:12:46  <KUDr> here
18:12:46  <Celestar> what platform are you on?
18:12:52  <webfreakz> WinXP
18:12:57  <webfreakz> and i've got MSVC6
18:13:06  <webfreakz> so i thougt: give it a try :)
18:13:07  <Celestar> KUDr: help webfreakz I have no idea what "stdout" is on XP ;)
18:13:24  <KUDr> yeah will try
18:13:44  <KUDr> webfreakz: PM?
18:13:45  <Celestar> great \o/
18:13:48  <webfreakz> KUDr:
18:13:55  <webfreakz> you said this in SVN commit: NPF : YAPF(type 2) : NTP  =  30 : 3 : 1
18:14:09  <webfreakz> and i was wondered how i could calculatie this myself...
18:14:44  <KUDr> it should be 10 : 3 : 1 (corrected next commit)
18:14:51  <KUDr> but you see it
18:14:56  <KUDr> try ~
18:15:02  <KUDr> you will see console
18:15:20  <peter1138> Celestar: no
18:15:28  <peter1138> Celestar: got big changes coming up to support them though
18:15:51  <webfreakz> when i open the console, i will see them immediately?
18:15:59  <Celestar> peter1138: cool stuff.
18:16:06  <Celestar> nice
18:16:10  <Celestar> BTTF on TV
18:16:27  <KUDr> webfreakz: they will come continuously if you have some vehicles
18:16:36  <webfreakz> ok, thx
18:16:48  <webfreakz> i will see tonight, gotta go to the movies now :)
18:17:22  <webfreakz> bye
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18:18:39  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
18:18:59  <Sacro> Celestar: channel?
18:19:44  <Sacro> to view stdout, either pipe to a text document, or run it under cmd
18:20:06  <Celestar> maybe
18:20:11  <Celestar> can't test, will not
18:20:17  <peter1138> oh good, the nightly built
18:20:22  *** Trippledence_ [] has joined #openttd
18:20:22  <Celestar> peter1138: ?
18:20:36  <peter1138> well, there's been a lot of changes recently... new files etc
18:20:40  <Vornicus> hm.  TGPerlin makes for tall coasts.
18:20:52  <Celestar> there have?
18:21:08  <peter1138> Celestar: well, newgrf vehicle names now pick the correct translation
18:21:12  <peter1138> that's one change
18:21:24  <Celestar> ok
18:21:28  <Celestar> nice
18:21:29  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
18:21:47  <Celestar> can't say I care because I usually run my system en_US
18:21:50  <Celestar> (=
18:21:51  <peter1138> well, english / german / french or spanish
18:21:54  <peter1138> heh
18:21:57  <peter1138> en_GB, please :P
18:22:32  <Celestar> peter1138: not mucho difference
18:23:14  <peter1138> colour
18:23:43  <Celestar> yeah I know
18:24:30  <Celestar> does anyone have the music files at his disposal?
18:24:39  <peter1138> yeah
18:24:51  <peter1138> i think
18:24:56  <Celestar> can you xmit them?
18:25:08  <peter1138> hmm
18:25:12  <peter1138> apparently i don't
18:25:20  <peter1138> ah. found 'em
18:25:27  <Celestar> I have them somewhere
18:25:32  <Celestar> but beagle doesn't find em
18:25:36  <peter1138> heh
18:25:42  <Sacro> xmit?
18:25:51  <peter1138> transmit
18:28:06  <Sacro> ahh, txmit
18:28:15  <Sacro> or just tx actually
18:28:56  <Celestar> hm
18:29:28  <Celestar> still no music volume set :(
18:30:50  <Celestar> food time
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18:32:31  <peter1138> does my patch not work? :(
18:35:52  <SmileyG> ok guys i've got the base files
18:36:01  <SmileyG> the gm_* files in a /gm/ ,,,,,
18:36:06  <SmileyG> tim@beast ~/ttd $ ls
18:36:06  <SmileyG> gm  trg1r.grf  trgcr.grf  trghr.grf  trgir.grf  trgtr.grf
18:36:28  <SmileyG> i gotta mov ethem somewhere?
18:36:38  <C-Otto> data
18:36:42  <C-Otto> gm is music afaik
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18:37:08  <SmileyG> ....#
18:37:10  <SmileyG> ih
18:37:12  <SmileyG> oh fek
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18:37:48  <SmileyG> what about grf?
18:38:03  <C-Otto> data.
18:38:29  <SmileyG> so is that it? or is there some dir called data?
18:38:42  <C-Otto> just have a look
18:40:13  <SmileyG> tim@beast /usr/share/games/openttd/data $ ls
18:40:13  <SmileyG> autorail.grf  dosdummy.grf  opntitle.dat  trkfoundw.grf
18:40:13  <SmileyG> canalsw.grf   openttd.grf   signalsw.grf
18:41:14  <C-Otto> notice anything?
18:41:22  <C-Otto> reading the man page would help too
18:41:23  <SmileyG> yeah
18:41:27  <SmileyG> i think i sorted it
18:41:33  <Qball> SmileyG: you need the orininal data files
18:41:40  <Qball> original
18:41:56  <Qball> and some grf files
18:42:12  <SmileyG> tim@beast /usr/share/games/openttd/data $ ls
18:42:12  <SmileyG> autorail.grf  openttd.grf   signalsw.grf  trghr.grf  trkfoundw.grf
18:42:12  <SmileyG> canalsw.grf   opntitle.dat  trg1r.grf     trgir.grf
18:42:12  <SmileyG> dosdummy.grf    trgcr.grf     trgtr.grf
18:42:22  <SmileyG> ?
18:42:28  <Qball> that looks better
18:42:39  <SmileyG> :]
18:42:44  <SmileyG> it works
18:42:46  <SmileyG> :D
18:42:56  <Qball> so now what was the problem?
18:43:12  <SmileyG> notuhubg :]
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18:48:08  <Sacro> damnit, just use $lol in php
18:49:17  <SmileyG> well im gonna have to learn to play that later :]
18:49:26  <SmileyG> u play online too?
18:51:32  <Sacro> i play online
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19:09:46  <SmileyG> is there any guide for noobies
19:09:54  <SmileyG> i looked at the wiki and i see one for installing... but not for playing
19:10:18  <MeusH> multiplayer :)
19:10:30  <MeusH> See how do other players  play
19:10:35  <MeusH> ask questions on chat
19:10:42  <MeusH> or ask specific questions here
19:10:47  <SmileyG> can you spectate the multiplayer?
19:10:50  <MeusH> yes
19:10:53  <SmileyG> ah awesome
19:12:00  <SmileyG> theres no body playing :D
19:12:16  <SmileyG> is the idea to err provide transport to everyone?
19:13:06  <peter1138> pretty much
19:13:20  <SmileyG> :D
19:13:21  <SmileyG> ok
19:13:22  <SmileyG> hehe
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19:19:52  <SmileyG> heh thats weird ;
19:20:05  <CIA-3> KUDr * r4503 /branch/yapf/yapf/ (follow_track.hpp yapf.h yapf_node_rail.hpp yapf_rail.cpp):
19:20:05  <CIA-3> [YAPF] Fix: roadvehs and trains can't find a path through short (zero-length) tunnels (thanks Celestar)
19:20:05  <CIA-3> Add: PF for trains now takes in consideration track owner and rail type
19:20:05  <CIA-3> Add: penalty for nearby red signals
19:22:19  <Celestar> nice KUDr :)
19:22:22  <Celestar> how did you find that one :)
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19:23:11  <KUDr> by tracing in debugger
19:23:21  <Celestar> ^^
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19:24:00  <Celestar> you still haven't decided between YAPF1 and YAPF2 ?
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19:24:34  <KUDr> YAPF2 is my candidate if 90-deg turns allowed
19:25:02  <KUDr> if 90-deg disabled, then 3 (like 1)
19:26:02  <KUDr> the problem is, that if you disable 90-deg turns then Tile/ExitDir as a node key is insufficient
19:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> why do 90° curves make such a difference?
19:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> ah, i see...
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19:26:44  <KUDr> type 1 is like reference - if something doesn't work in type 2, i try it there
19:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> grr... these PBS are driving me nuts...
19:27:22  <MeusH> KUDr: I think we should decide about 90deg turns. I'm with removing them totally and saving you, and other developers from doing more work
19:28:08  <KUDr> MeusH: it is not more work for me - i use C++ templates
19:28:19  <MeusH> allright, as you wish
19:28:23  <KUDr> so compiler does the hard work for me
19:28:24  <MeusH> you're developer here :)
19:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> i could never adapt to design without 90° turns
19:30:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> i am too used to it
19:31:24  <SmileyG> 90degree turns in what?
19:31:25  <SmileyG> roads?
19:31:32  <Celestar> WTF?
19:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> rails
19:31:36  <SmileyG> ah
19:31:41  <SmileyG> ok then yeah i see why its errr
19:31:43  <SmileyG> debated
19:31:51  <KUDr> and ships
19:33:36  <peter1138> i dislike those 90° bends
19:33:41  <peter1138> looks nasty
19:34:03  <KUDr> same hee
19:34:08  <KUDr> here
19:34:29  <Celestar> yes.
19:34:53  <peter1138> unions: do we have to name them?
19:35:33  <CIA-3> KUDr * r4504 /branch/yapf/yapf.txt: [YAPF] Add: comments about train YAPF types
19:36:19  <KUDr> peter1138: i guess not, but i noticed some GCC problems with unnamed structs and unions
19:36:40  <peter1138> i'm using named structs
19:36:59  <peter1138> (they're defined separately, else it would be a two/three page union :))
19:37:26  <KUDr> i meant unnamed struct inside unnamed union - to have all different flags and one byte that contains them
19:37:36  <peter1138> mmm
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19:39:12  <KUDr> like:
19:39:13  <KUDr> union {
19:39:13  <KUDr>   struct {
19:39:13  <KUDr>     byte flag1:1;
19:39:13  <KUDr>     byte flag1:2;
19:39:13  <KUDr>     byte flag1:3;
19:39:15  <KUDr>   };
19:39:17  <KUDr>   byte flags;
19:39:19  <KUDr> };
19:39:41  <KUDr> oops :1 always
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19:40:06  <peter1138> flag2:1 i presume :)
19:40:14  <KUDr> yes
19:40:38  <KUDr> too old and tired
19:40:41  <peter1138> hmm, can you use the :n syntax on named enums?
19:40:52  <peter1138> (more to the point, should you avoid it)
19:41:05  <Celestar> KUDr: please be award that we cannot use these types.
19:41:14  <KUDr> hmm can't imagine how
19:41:30  <KUDr> Celestar: why?
19:41:30  <Celestar> because Big Endian machines reverse the order.
19:41:37  <KUDr> and?
19:41:46  <KUDr> it must be saved as bits
19:41:50  <KUDr> not as byte
19:42:00  <KUDr> then everything will be ok
19:42:09  <KUDr> but code will be much cleaner
19:42:15  <Celestar> or you make two definitiions.
19:42:24  <Celestar> one for big endinan, one for little endian.
19:42:27  <KUDr> yes - also the common way
19:42:38  <KUDr> like in tcp.h or ip.h
19:42:40  <peter1138> or if you don't need to save it, don't worry :)
19:42:49  <KUDr> yes
19:43:07  <Celestar> yeah
19:48:05  <CIA-3> celestar * r4505 /trunk/ship_cmd.c: -Fix (FS#94) Ships can now be used to set up feeders as well.
19:48:16  <Celestar> one more bug report down
19:49:54  <MeusH> nice job
19:50:40  <Celestar> KUDr: about OPF, have you any idea what disable_tile_hash could be ? ;)
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19:51:29  <KUDr> Celestar: i guess it disables open/closed lists
19:51:35  <Celestar> KUDr: and that means?
19:51:46  <KUDr> not real pathfinding
19:51:57  <Celestar> please elaborate
19:51:58  <KUDr> it should be good for special cases
19:52:16  <KUDr> like searching for all signals around segment
19:52:19  <KUDr> or so
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19:52:35  <Celestar> so for normal pathfinding'?
19:52:54  <Celestar> no disable_tile_hash?
19:52:58  <Celestar> (ships use it)
19:52:59  <KUDr> hmm, i guess it is not for pathfinding
19:53:05  <KUDr> really?
19:53:07  <Celestar> yes.
19:53:19  <KUDr> then it is kind of optimisation
19:53:20  <Celestar> and road vehicles if the look for a depot.
19:53:30  <KUDr> hmm
19:53:31  <Celestar> but then they don't find the depot here and there.
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19:53:40  <Celestar> that's why I'm going to disable the disabling.
19:53:48  <KUDr> heh
19:53:56  <KUDr> try it and will see
19:54:12  <KUDr> now we have much faster machines than in the DOS era
19:54:36  <Celestar> KUDr: have a look: (wait)
19:55:52  <Celestar> DCC
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19:58:39  <Celestar> <= this is weird.
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20:00:56  <KUDr> Celestar: what is that opf.sav?
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20:01:13  <Celestar> a savegame (a similar one to the one I sent you before)
20:01:24  <Celestar> watch the 4 purple buses. they should be circling
20:01:35  <Celestar> then observe the order of such a bus
20:01:38  <KUDr> it is normal with opf
20:01:48  <KUDr> the destination is too far
20:01:52  <Celestar> no
20:01:56  <Celestar> it doesn't find the DEPOT
20:02:00  <Celestar> which is RIGHT THERE
20:02:11  <KUDr> aha
20:02:44  <Celestar> and if I enable the tile hash, it works nicely
20:03:04  <KUDr> ok, then you are big guru
20:03:14  <Celestar> nah.
20:03:17  <Celestar> I was just guessing
20:03:26  <KUDr> but good guess
20:03:29  <Celestar> because normally the RVs use the tile_hash
20:03:36  <Celestar> so enabling it is a good idea?
20:03:42  <KUDr> better than false assumption
20:04:08  <KUDr> it will be bit slower but if it works better, why not?
20:04:27  <KUDr> but do it for that case only
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20:04:33  <KUDr> not generally
20:04:46  <KUDr> it can cause problems elsewhere
20:05:11  <Celestar> yes
20:05:15  <Celestar> of course
20:05:38  <Celestar> (the only case where it is used is for ships now)
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20:08:27  <CIA-3> celestar * r4506 /trunk/roadveh_cmd.c: -Fix: (FS#95) Use the tile hash when pathfinding to a depot. Eats a tiny bit of performance, but the likelihood that the depot is found is greatly increased
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20:10:55  <CIA-3> celestar * r4507 /trunk/roadveh_cmd.c: Just a comment
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20:15:29  <Celestar> ok
20:15:32  <Celestar> question:
20:16:11  <Celestar> some raw materials are delivered to a station, and there are two industries within like 30 tiles which can accept them. which one should get it?
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20:16:19  <Celestar> I vote for just the closest.
20:16:30  <hylje> hmm
20:16:35  <Celestar> currently it sucks
20:16:42  <hylje> distribute?
20:16:53  <XeryusTC> split it up between those two
20:16:59  <Celestar> the one which comes later in the array gets all
20:17:10  <Celestar> I don't think that splitting is a good idea.
20:17:17  <KUDr> Celestar: i vote to give them both something or have a choice (new gui)
20:17:33  <Celestar> new gui.
20:17:39  <Celestar> I need a quick bugfix.
20:18:20  <Celestar> that's why the game in the original version does NOT allow close-by industries.
20:18:27  <KUDr> then the closest one or if one has transpotred product, give it to this one
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20:18:36  <Celestar> (of same type)
20:19:24  <Celestar> first of all, I make closest and I add a todo item for some better solution :)
20:19:33  <KUDr> ok
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20:19:55  <MeusH> consider this:
20:20:00  <MeusH> one industry is 10 tiles away
20:20:06  <MeusH> the second one is 20 tiles away
20:20:26  <MeusH> the first one may get 67%, the second one 33%
20:20:48  <KUDr> maybe
20:20:54  <Celestar> well
20:21:12  <MeusH> but it would require more computing, I know
20:21:24  <Celestar> we should only deliver to industries which are withing the catchment radius.
20:21:38  <KUDr> but in real life it will be taken by thi one that needs it more (will pay more for it)
20:22:28  <KUDr> Celestar: catchment radius can be configured, or not?
20:22:36  <Celestar> nope
20:22:44  <Celestar> the station spread can be configured
20:22:47  <Celestar> but I found the problem
20:22:51  <KUDr> aha
20:23:29  <Jango> has anyone ever heard of electrical interference (from PCs / monitors) breaking WLAN connectivity?
20:24:07  <KUDr> Jango: yep - close the PC case
20:24:07  <Jango> brb
20:24:16  <Jango> it's pretty much closed
20:24:33  <KUDr> then change CPU freq
20:24:38  <KUDr> it can help
20:24:57  <KUDr> or set spectrum spreading
20:25:10  <KUDr> in bios setup
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20:25:38  <CIA-3> celestar * r4508 /trunk/economy.c: -Fix: (FS#125) Fixed a problem that caused DeliverGoodsToIndustry to not work as intended. Note: write something better for this entire function
20:26:17  <Celestar> Jango: switch channel
20:26:50  * Celestar fixed 4 bugs today \o/
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20:28:43  <KUDr> real guru
20:29:04  <Sacro> any yorkshire folk or nhs people -
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20:30:48  <Celestar> er
20:31:00  <Celestar> <= has this been fixed? I cannot reproduce it.
20:33:07  <KUDr> do you have cygwin?
20:33:19  <Celestar> nope
20:33:27  <Celestar> but I cannot image that to surface only on cygwin
20:34:46  <KUDr> who knows
20:34:48  <Celestar> do you think Tron has a problem with me commiting stuff?
20:35:12  <Celestar> in the bridge branch
20:36:11  <peter1138> no
20:36:28  <peter1138> isn't that what it's for? :)
20:38:20  <Sacro> what is the bridge branch?
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20:38:44  <MeusH> and does it have a IRC channel?
20:39:05  <MeusH> Sacro: have you seen a screenshot of high bridge with level crossing and tunnel undernath?
20:39:11  <CIA-3> celestar * r4509 /branch/bridge/tunnelbridge_cmd.c: -Fix: compilation problem with 2 different declarations for GetBridgeHeight
20:39:30  <peter1138> is the bridge branch
20:41:48  <KUDr> very nice pic
20:42:00  <Celestar> well.
20:42:01  <Celestar> it works.
20:42:03  <Celestar> ..
20:42:05  <Celestar> partially.
20:42:13  <MeusH> what do you mean?
20:42:14  <MeusH> partialyl
20:42:17  <MeusH> bleh
20:42:17  <hylje> buggy
20:42:21  <Celestar> there are problems.
20:42:30  <MeusH> yeah, what problems?
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20:42:50  <Celestar> heigh computations, vehicle reverse.
20:42:56  <Celestar> some others which I haven't found yet ^^
20:43:04  <Celestar> I mean its very new a diff.
20:43:09  <Celestar> s/diff/branch
20:43:48  <MeusH> ahh allright
20:43:57  <MeusH> height computations are horrible
20:44:20  <MeusH> I'd like to know details on height computations developement
20:44:38  <peter1138> implicit foundations--
20:44:42  <MeusH> Celestar: it doesn't work well on slopes, eh?
20:44:47  <Celestar> peter1138: <= I like that patch
20:44:54  <Celestar> MeusH: haven't tested yet.
20:45:08  <peter1138> you think it's worth doing?
20:45:21  <Celestar> peter1138: I WANT 4 corners per tile.
20:45:40  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah why not. it seems not like a HUGE effort.
20:47:03  <hylje> "if a boolean isn't true or false, then we have some bigger issues to address, no?"
20:47:17  <Celestar> hylje: lol
20:48:56  <Celestar> <= RFC
20:49:04  <Qball>  when a boolean isn't true or false, it isn't a boolean
20:49:14  <MeusH> FS#82:  "BEGIN_TILE_LOOP(tile_cur, MapSizeX(), MapSizeY(), 0);"  <= seems like it goes through whole map
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20:49:24  <MeusH> fields are not spread all over the map
20:49:28  <peter1138> MeusH: yes, it needs fixing there
20:49:31  <MeusH> the tile loop may be reduced
20:49:35  <peter1138> MeusH: well spotted :)
20:49:45  <Celestar> how?
20:50:52  <MeusH> fields planting function is limited so fields don't get created everywhere
20:51:12  <MeusH> same limit should be applied to the tile loop that looks for fields to delete
20:51:26  <Celestar> ah that you mean.
20:51:26  <Celestar> true
20:52:09  <Celestar> <= some windows user, please test.
20:53:08  <MeusH> static void MaybePlantFarmField(const Industry* i)
20:53:15  <MeusH> some magic numbers are there
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20:53:25  <Celestar> I *hate* those "Maybe" functions.
20:54:00  <MeusH> FS#63: I'll download the music and check it
20:54:13  <MeusH> however, the bug is reported in 0.4.5
20:54:25  <MeusH> I'll be testing in the current svn version
20:55:23  <Celestar> <= KUDr ? :)
20:56:18  <peter1138> hmm!
20:56:21  <peter1138> ElectricFence Aborting: Allocating 0 bytes, probably a bug.
20:56:23  <peter1138>  166+>        vl->sort_list = malloc(n * sizeof(vl->sort_list[0]));
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20:56:29  <peter1138> n = 0
20:56:36  <peter1138> because i have no vehicles yet...
20:56:39  <Celestar> peter1138: you seem to like EFence? :)
20:56:48  <MeusH> do 16s in MaybePlantFarmField mean TILE_SIZE?
20:56:52  <peter1138> i found the gdb config for it
20:56:56  <peter1138> far nicer than plain efence
20:57:06  <Celestar> you did? :o
20:57:18  <hylje> Celestar: yep, Maybe boolean
20:57:27  <peter1138> /usr/share/doc/electric-fence/README.gdb on my box
20:57:28  <Celestar> hylje: ?
20:57:37  <hylje> liek, true, maybe, false
20:57:40  <peter1138> run [c]gdb, then type efence, then run :D
20:57:58  <KUDr> [22:57:26] <Celestar> <= KUDr ? :) <-- seems correct
20:58:36  <Celestar> ok
20:58:45  * Celestar is going to bed an will continue patching later.
20:58:53  <KUDr> you can commit another fix :)
20:58:58  <Celestar> I can?
20:59:07  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r4510 /trunk/ (newgrf.c newgrf_engine.c):
20:59:07  <CIA-3> - NewGRF bounds checking:
20:59:07  <CIA-3>  - check Engine ID is within range
20:59:07  <CIA-3>  - don't try setting a vehicle name if the string id is not a valid Engine ID
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20:59:28  <KUDr> Celestar: BIGMULS
20:59:39  <Celestar> 2morrow.
20:59:40  <Celestar> cu
20:59:47  <KUDr> gn
21:00:22  <MeusH> goodnight
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21:10:34  <black_Nightmare> anyone know how to remove a co password? (in multiplayer yeah and its my own co)
21:11:29  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
21:11:55  <MeusH> try changing password to nothing
21:11:56  <MeusH> aka ""
21:12:04  <MeusH> or put the password in the name of the company
21:12:10  <black_Nightmare> ty anyhow
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21:18:12  <MeusH> hey Bjarni!
21:18:18  <Bjarni> hi MeusH
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21:20:06  <CIA-3> KUDr * r4511 /branch/yapf/ (62 files in 5 dirs): Sync with trunk (4454:4510)
21:21:40  <Bjarni> KUDr: I have been wondering about yapf and got an idea
21:22:08  <KUDr> what idea
21:22:23  <Bjarni> instead of naming the junctions 0,1,2,3...., assign them numbers like in a hash, so you can make junction routing based on destination number
21:22:31  <Bjarni> kind of like how internet routers work
21:23:18  <Bjarni> if it is set up correctly, it would be fast, but I see a lot of problems I haven't found a solution to yet
21:23:23  <KUDr> hmm, not sure that i understand
21:23:47  <KUDr> you mean nodes in A*?
21:24:13  <KUDr> or you mean what we discussed month ago about optimizing?
21:24:48  <Bjarni> say you got a train entering a junction and it is heading for junction 583. The junction will then send it to a certain path since the destination is between 285 and 630
21:25:12  <hylje> :o
21:25:24  <hylje> so junction-based pathing?
21:25:28  <Bjarni> I'm not really sure if it is related to the talk we had earlier. This idea just came to me during a boring lecture
21:25:30  <KUDr> hmm, so caching the best path
21:25:39  <Sacro> ooh, and sigal numbering, and ooh ooh ooh, a signal controller mode
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21:26:27  <KUDr> still not sure if i can cache the path
21:26:34  <Bjarni> <KUDr>	hmm, so caching the best path <-- something like that, but instead of caching the best way to each junction, you cache the best way to a pool of junctions
21:26:40  <KUDr> i will need experimet with that
21:27:17  <KUDr> hmm, hard to imagine that
21:27:49  <Bjarni> I will make a drawing (or at least try to do so)
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21:28:55  <KUDr> yeah, it would help i guess
21:30:36  <TL|Away> <- oh my goodness
21:30:39  <TL|Away> what a ......
21:30:48  <TL|Away> can I call him a morron?
21:30:51  <Sacro> DaleStan?
21:30:59  <peter1138> tee lee
21:31:01  <peter1138> er,
21:31:01  <MeusH> maybye not. I hate such kind of wars
21:31:08  <MeusH> he helped OpenTTD a bit
21:31:08  <peter1138> hee, even
21:31:15  <MeusH> maybye I'm too gentle
21:31:17  <peter1138> different thread :P
21:31:18  <MeusH> but I wouldn't do so
21:31:28  <Sacro> i think my tinterweb is down :(
21:31:42  <MeusH> ahh
21:31:55  <MeusH> Sacro, you messed in my mind
21:32:01  <MeusH> TL|Away: he's yours
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21:33:24  <Bjarni>
21:33:35  <Bjarni> I thought that name fits my drawing :/
21:34:06  <TL|Away> MeusH: tnx ;)
21:34:14  <valhallasw> it's so pretty, Bjarni
21:34:28  <Bjarni> anyway, image that a train reach junction 28 and it is heading for #5, it will then go north since junction 28 sends everything north if it is heading for less than 20
21:34:35  <KUDr> So list of best directions by node (or hash map)
21:34:53  <Bjarni> at junction 1 sends it to the right since it's less than 10
21:35:06  <Bjarni> yeah, kind of like a hash map/table/something
21:35:16  <Sian^_^> hmm ... dtu ... my brother is researching and doing some teaching there ...
21:35:21  <KUDr> but it will not work with just ranges
21:35:26  <Bjarni> junction 28 and 1 do not know where 5 is, but they do know how to forward the train in the right direction
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21:35:38  <KUDr> you can have multiple paths to each node
21:35:55  <Bjarni> I know and I still wonder about that one
21:36:11  <KUDr> so map<node, direction>
21:36:42  <KUDr> it can be good for RVs
21:36:59  <KUDr> but trains must take in consideration signal states
21:37:38  <KUDr> then the best direction can change offten
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21:38:39  <KUDr> if it changes often, i don't know how to keep that map in sysnc
21:38:56  <KUDr> sync
21:39:10  <stillunknown> is there a way to determine important junctions?
21:39:41  <KUDr> stillunknown: good idea, hmm, but how to?
21:40:05  <stillunknown> can i tell my basic idea first?
21:40:12  <KUDr> stillunknown: this could help a lot for ships
21:40:25  <KUDr> there is still unsolved performance problem
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21:41:15  <Bjarni> <stillunknown>	can i tell my basic idea first? <-- go ahead
21:41:45  <KUDr> Bjarni: <-- can you stick it please?
21:41:46  <stillunknown> a rail network with a 100 trains will have maybe 10-20 main junctions/points in a network, let the main junctions do pathfinding to each other nearby junction
21:42:17  <stillunknown> once a train leaves the path the junction would take --> switch to individual pathfinding
21:43:14  <stillunknown> either because a piece of track is very busy or because the train is on the way to station
21:43:55  <stillunknown> travel by junction and let the junctions do most of the pathfinding, a lot of trains (i think) could follow that path
21:44:07  <stillunknown> and would "share" pathfinding
21:45:23  <stillunknown> identification of junctions would have to be determined by the amount of connected track in a region (i know this doesn't help for ships, but i may have an idea for that too)
21:45:47  <KUDr> stillunknown: yes, this is what i thought about month ago
21:45:55  <KUDr> but not so easy
21:46:06  <KUDr> they must load-balance and so on
21:47:27  <stillunknown> what if you store for each junction what junctions are directly connected to that junction
21:47:45  <KUDr> this is planned next phase
21:47:57  <KUDr> to skip segment cost calculations
21:48:13  <KUDr> as it takes 90% of CPU time now
21:48:28  <KUDr> so it can speed it up a lot
21:49:08  <stillunknown> how about storing in each junction the following things
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21:49:52  <stillunknown> the combination of junctions need to get to any junction on the network and a combination of supertiles(4x4,8x8,16x16, etc)
21:50:11  <stillunknown> a train would take the smallest supertile and check for a junction in range
21:50:19  <stillunknown> otherwise it takes a bigger one
21:50:35  <Bjarni> what do you mean by supertiles?
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21:51:04  <Bjarni> you mean an area of say 16x16 tiles should be treated as one tile when routing long distances?
21:51:05  <stillunknown> basicly a number to identify a group of tiles
21:51:14  <Bjarni> ahh
21:51:25  <KUDr> this is very usefull for ships
21:51:46  <Bjarni> a bit like my idea to make junctions next to each other have IDs close to each other
21:52:22  <Brianetta> KUDr: Did you use ideas from the PDF I linked you to?
21:52:49  <Bjarni> can I see that pdf?
21:52:52  <KUDr> Brianetta: i tried, but seems bit unusable
21:52:56  <Brianetta> ah
21:53:01  <KUDr> but thanks
21:53:04  * Brianetta wasn't useful ):
21:53:09  <KUDr> can help in next life
21:53:32  <KUDr> anyway i learned a lot from it
21:53:50  <Brianetta> You're cacheing scores, though, so you must be doing some similar enhancement to A*
21:54:10  <stillunknown> what you basicly do is make priorities, paths that are often used are more optimised, every junction stores the combination of junctions which can be used to travel to any junction, every junction does pathfinding to nearby junctions (more if often used)
21:54:14  <KUDr> not scores
21:54:19  <KUDr> only segment costs
21:54:29  <KUDr> this will be next step now
21:54:30  <Brianetta> Isn't that a score?
21:54:45  <KUDr> there was score to the destination
21:54:51  <Brianetta> right
21:54:53  <KUDr> but i have many destinations
21:55:10  <Brianetta> stillunknown: Junctions aren't entities, so that's pretty difficult
21:55:13  <KUDr> so it is like partial score, yes
21:56:03  <stillunknown> perhaps an enhancement to indicate important junctions (which are built to take lots of trains) in the game
21:56:46  <stillunknown> and do an estimate based on track layout in the area(i know this is not easy)
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21:57:43  <KUDr> stillunknown: if i can tell what nodes are most used (it is possible to count passing trains or so), then i would rather try to balance its load and redirect some other trains to more expensive but free paths
21:58:28  <stillunknown> i assume when a track splits up it gets a special state?
21:58:34  <stillunknown> how are nodes determined?
21:58:54  <KUDr> node is combination of TileIndex and ExitDir
21:59:02  <KUDr> or TileIndex and TrackDir
21:59:05  <Bjarni> I just got an idea (I'm not sure how CPU friendly it is though). How about (on new day event or something) each junction gain a score for each train trying to get in (waiting at red signal) and reduce the score if nobody is trying to get in. This way if all the trains decide to go the same way, the trains that could easily have picked another way will select the other way quickly. Another bonus from this is that everybody will avoi
21:59:05  <Bjarni> d a deadlock since it will get 0xFFFF score/penalty quickly since it never drops. Everybody will avoid such a large penalty and a news item can warn about it
22:00:04  <MeusH> very good idea
22:00:19  <MeusH> unclear at first, but re-reading it made it clear
22:00:21  <KUDr> heh - looks good
22:01:07  <KUDr> it can be used mostly for load balancing
22:01:21  <KUDr> for multi-line tracks
22:02:16  <Bjarni> it also mean that if a train got the same length for two options in it's route, it will pick the least trafficked one
22:03:29  <Brianetta> s/junction/signal block
22:03:32  <Brianetta> Make it general
22:03:40  <Brianetta> then you don't have to try to define a junction
22:03:44  <KUDr> now i do simpler thing: i count signals on the path and for each red one i add a penalty = const >> num_signals_passed
22:03:47  <Brianetta> or get confused by a crossing
22:04:01  <Brianetta> KUDr: Somebody wrote a patch that did that to NPF
22:04:04  <Brianetta> it worked really well
22:04:15  <KUDr> really?
22:04:31  <KUDr> and i was proud that i found such nice idea ;)
22:05:18  <stillunknown> i think this is it:
22:07:41  <stillunknown> i had an idea
22:09:31  <stillunknown> what if the first few trains to travel a route do individual pathfinding --> store routes and once you have many routes you can check where they cross --> add those to a junction pool and once a train has traveled a route once or twice
22:09:46  <MeusH> goodnight everybody
22:09:47  <MeusH> later
22:09:56  *** MeusH [] has quit ["Goodbye"]
22:10:11  <stillunknown> you can identify the first and last junction and actually let the junctions do pathfinding once it reaches a junction
22:11:30  <KUDr> stillunknown: it works so now - the pathfinding runs just before each junction
22:11:54  <stillunknown> so between junctions pathfinding is already shared?
22:12:05  <KUDr> no
22:12:12  <KUDr> it runs again and again
22:12:28  <KUDr> because it can produce fifferent results
22:12:32  <stillunknown> maybe i can make a drawing
22:12:37  <stillunknown> of what i mean
22:12:39  <KUDr> the path changes between runs
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22:18:50  <stillunknown>
22:19:34  <stillunknown> imagine that two trains have had the same path a few times, the green part is shared, in that part the trains could use the same pathfinding because they travel the same route
22:19:37  <Bjarni> what if there are two equally good ways that could be the green arrow?
22:19:48  <stillunknown> the green is shared route
22:20:07  <Born_Acorn> peter1138! newstations!
22:20:07  <Bjarni> it would mean that all trains use the same track
22:20:13  <peter1138> yeah yeah
22:20:17  <Bjarni> !slap Born_Acorn
22:20:19  <jmp_ghli> >Bjarni> Bjarni has a picture about Born_Acorn getting a used pair of superman underpants as a birthday present.
22:20:27  <Bjarni> we are talking pathfinding, not sprites
22:20:40  <Prof_Frink> Born_Acorn! something!
22:20:45  <Born_Acorn> I don't have a lower torso!
22:20:49  <Born_Acorn> I lost it in the war!
22:21:04  <stillunknown> what you want is pathfinding that scales, especially on mainlines
22:21:53  <stillunknown> once a train has trouble reaching destination you do a second complete pathfinding to conform that the stored route of junctions is ok
22:22:00  <stillunknown> *confirm
22:22:54  <KUDr> stillunknown: pathfinding is not abou finding a path but it must dynamically find the BEST path
22:23:03  <KUDr> and the BEST is very important
22:23:27  <KUDr> as it can mean that the path will be always different
22:23:41  <KUDr> based on the signal states and so on
22:23:46  <Bjarni> finding A path is easy and quick. Finding the BEST part is tricky
22:23:57  <KUDr> yes
22:24:10  <Darkvater> he, back
22:24:16  <KUDr> hi
22:24:42  <Bjarni> hi Darkvater
22:25:02  <KUDr> <-- can somebody stick it, please?
22:25:16  <stillunknown> assume that you already know junctions (or nodes as you call them), does the system do i prescan of somekind which indicate the rough path?
22:25:27  <Bjarni> KUDr: done
22:25:31  <KUDr> thanks
22:26:57  <stillunknown> what about scanning the path once, store nodes it passes, at each node scan if path is still as good as before and then put the train in a pool which is going from node X to node Y?
22:27:34  <stillunknown> *at each node scan if the path to the next node is as good as before
22:28:02  <KUDr> stillunknown: it is the same as planning the path for each train - but path states change each tick
22:28:16  <Born_Acorn> I remember there was another thread that got stickied. Nobody read it, because they weren't expecting it up there.
22:28:32  <KUDr> hmm
22:28:44  <KUDr> hopefully it will not be the case
22:28:48  <Born_Acorn> Was that one of your threads Darkvater?
22:29:24  <Born_Acorn> I remember it happened, but not whose thread it was.
22:30:06  <KUDr> till now 50 - it is not bad
22:30:37  <Bjarni> 	<Born_Acorn>	Was that one of your threads Darkvater? <-- no, it was mine
22:30:44  <Born_Acorn> Ah.
22:31:11  <Bjarni> nobody wrote anything in it and once it got unstickied, it got a zillion replies in no time
22:31:14  <Born_Acorn> When you unstickied it and posted a message in it, people started noticing.
22:31:14  <Bjarni> o_O
22:31:20  <Born_Acorn> Yeah
22:31:52  <stillunknown> KUDr: so the actual path finding is close to maximum performance as it is?
22:32:18  <KUDr> stillunknown: no, but it is full and dynamic
22:32:43  <KUDr> the performance improvements should not go against that requirements
22:32:54  <KUDr> but are welcome
22:33:13  <KUDr> like what i plan now - the segment cost cache
22:33:44  <KUDr> can't be used for nearby trains, but after let say 10 signals passed it can be used
22:34:32  <Darkvater> KUDr: stickied
22:34:44  * stillunknown is going to bed, if i think of anything i will let you know
22:35:00  <Darkvater> KUDr: although to get it tested you will probably need binaries with it
22:35:01  <KUDr> Darkvater: thanks
22:35:03  <Darkvater> hm
22:35:05  <Darkvater> TL|Away: ping
22:35:23  <KUDr> for windows or more
22:35:38  <Darkvater> windows definitely since windows users don't know how to compile
22:35:42  <Darkvater> the majority at least
22:36:05  <KUDr> true
22:36:22  <Born_Acorn> People might flood you with binary requests!
22:36:52  <KUDr> i will do that, thanks for note
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22:49:22  <Born_Acorn> Celestar, peter1138, do you two know why custom catenary graphics cannot be loaded? Is it intentional or not intentional?
22:51:13  <Born_Acorn> Ive been trying to make this new dutch catenary work, but it shows MB's all the time
22:51:43  <Darkvater> Born_Acorn: elrailsw.grf is hardcoded to load up
22:51:57  <Darkvater> it might work if you delete it and put in the dutch catenary with the elrailsw.grf name
22:52:08  <Born_Acorn> no, I tried that, it didn't.
22:52:29  <Born_Acorn> "cannot load erailsw.grf" was the error when I tried that
22:52:39  <Darkvater> hmm, MD5 error?
22:53:30  <Darkvater> Born_Acorn: are you sure?
22:53:32  <Born_Acorn> hmm. strange. this time it's loaded
22:53:47  <Darkvater> ..
22:53:59  <Born_Acorn> Ooh. The graphics are pretty
22:54:10  <Darkvater> ss!
22:54:50  <Born_Acorn> I'll upload one
22:55:54  <Born_Acorn>
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22:57:20  <Darkvater> ohoooh
22:57:42  <Darkvater> pretty...
22:57:51  <Darkvater> what's the stone-bridge?
22:58:00  <Born_Acorn> Thats Pikkabird's
22:58:23  <Born_Acorn>
22:59:21  <Born_Acorn> Replaces the wooden one with an 80mph brick viaduct bridge. More expensive than a Steel Girder bridge though.
22:59:26  <Darkvater> ah
23:00:16  <Darkvater> o:)
23:00:24  <Darkvater>
23:00:27  <Darkvater> like this mockup ;)
23:00:59  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: having something like that would be nice :)
23:02:14  <Darkvater>
23:02:17  <Darkvater> this one as well :)
23:02:18  <Born_Acorn> Yeah, I've imagined TTD having a more modern GUI, something more visual than text only.
23:02:37  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: that one's cool too :)
23:02:39  <Born_Acorn> So I made some mockups.
23:03:13  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: is there a documentation available for ottd?
23:03:21  <Darkvater> what kind?
23:03:42  <XeryusTC> something doxygen like preferably :)
23:03:52  <Darkvater> yeah
23:03:57  <ArmEagle> ..not that i want it.. but how do you get electric 'rails' supported by the game?
23:04:00  <Darkvater>
23:04:08  <Darkvater> ArmEagle: nightly
23:04:18  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: nice :)
23:04:28  <Darkvater> although it is not complete
23:04:33  <ArmEagle> yeah sorry, i'm lazy ;)
23:05:10  <Darkvater> np
23:05:15  <ArmEagle> doh sorry that link wasn't for me ;)
23:05:27  <Darkvater> ArmEagle: no, your link is
23:05:35  <XeryusTC> ArmEagle: <- my (old) custom build :)
23:05:47  <ArmEagle> hmm nightly.. just compiled the svn. anyway i like it the way it is now ;)
23:05:57  <ArmEagle> was just wondering
23:06:13  <Darkvater> ArmEagle: svn is good as well
23:06:19  <Darkvater> nightly is svn
23:06:22  <Darkvater> at night
23:06:40  <ArmEagle> ;)
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23:07:37  <XeryusTC> has a weird layout, mine looks like the standard:
23:08:01  <XeryusTC> well not completely standard, but sort of
23:08:35  <Darkvater> donnu why it's like that, ask celestar or truelight :)
23:09:00  <|Jeroen|> tetn
23:09:05  <XeryusTC> they're both sleeping i guess :(
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23:13:58  <XeryusTC> aquaduct \o/
23:15:30  <ArmEagle> ah doh.. this new svn apparently converted my tracks to electric tracks automatically..
23:15:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> why is that thing called .png when it's actually a .bmp?
23:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> ArmEagle: yes, it does that, when an electric engine is present in old savegames
23:16:00  <XeryusTC> to make your browser do weird things
23:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> well... if you count "open paint" as "weird", then yes...
23:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> guys... we must do something about these refit costs
23:16:56  <XeryusTC> opera just loads it from bottom to top
23:17:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is plain ridiculous to pay 7000 to refit a wagon which costs 3000 from coal to ore
23:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> where all you have to do is fill something different in
23:18:11  <XeryusTC> you want it to cost more or less?
23:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> less!
23:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> i am pretty sure there are actually reasonable refit costs defined in the newgrf
23:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> oh... and for comparison: a ship that costs 70000 costs only 1000 to refit to ore
23:19:48  <XeryusTC> it seems sensible to me that it should cost more, you first have to remove the old stuff in the wagon, then prepare it for the new stuff and build the new stuff in
23:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is a damn open wagon... you don't prepare anything... you just throw the stuff in it
23:21:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> why would the wagon care if it is carrying ore or coal?
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23:22:14  <XeryusTC> because coal is heavier iirc
23:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> you completely miss the point...
23:22:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> it is not that it costs something... it is the RELATION
23:22:52  <Born_Acorn> XeryusTC, peter1138 asked me to draw that a while back. He must have something in mind.
23:23:12  <XeryusTC> no i don't, i get that you want to say that they are completely the same
23:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, in that particluar case the cost should really be 0
23:23:50  <XeryusTC> Born_Acorn: you're talking about the aquaduct?
23:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> for others, it should not...
23:24:18  <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause2: that's true, lomo lets you use one wagon for multiple cargo types
23:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> in any case... it should not be twice the cost of the entire wagon
23:24:31  <Born_Acorn> Yes
23:24:32  <XeryusTC> that is one thing that i want to see in ottd
23:24:48  <Born_Acorn> and as peter1138 told me, its spelt "aqueduct" :p
23:24:55  *** Mukke [] has quit []
23:25:06  <XeryusTC> :P
23:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't pretend to know latin, but i would spell it aquaeduct
23:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> (because it's "Aquädukt" in german)
23:25:58  <Prof_Frink> What have the romans ever done for us?
23:26:09  <Born_Acorn> The health system
23:26:13  <Born_Acorn> roads
23:26:15  <Born_Acorn> :p
23:26:18  <XeryusTC>
23:26:24  <XeryusTC> so it's aqueduct
23:26:28  * Born_Acorn got that reference
23:26:57  * Prof_Frink says "Ni!" at Born_Acorn
23:27:06  <Born_Acorn> The Life of Brian, Prof_Frink!
23:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Latin aquaeductus" <- see, i was not that far off ;)
23:28:03  <Born_Acorn> The knights of Ni!
23:29:23  <orudge> ni!
23:30:10  * XeryusTC greets orudge
23:30:13  <Prof_Frink> Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-p'tang-zoo-boing-goodem-zu-owly-zhiv!
23:30:30  <XeryusTC> "Ushi says hi"
23:32:21  <orudge> Hello
23:33:48  <Darkvater> ey owen
23:36:54  <vondel> this will learn to turn off autosave: an evening of playing --> openttd freezes
23:38:34  *** Bjarni [] has quit ["Leaving"]
23:40:35  <orudge> Hello people
23:40:50  * XeryusTC greets orudge again ;)
23:40:56  <orudge> Hello more people
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