Log for #openttd on 11th July 2006:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:49  *** Brianetta [] has quit ["Tschüß"]
00:05:38  *** Artea35 [] has joined #openttd
00:05:38  *** Artea_ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
00:12:06  *** Trenskow [n=outlet@] has quit ["Read error: Connection reset by sortepeer"]
00:12:37  *** BJH_ [] has joined #openttd
00:15:27  *** exe_ [] has left #openttd []
00:21:05  *** exe_ [] has joined #openttd
00:22:49  *** Ihmemies [] has quit ["Signed off"]
00:23:57  *** BJH [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
00:35:32  *** Mukke [] has quit []
00:46:54  *** exe_ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
00:51:16  <kbrooks> heh
00:51:38  *** exe_ [] has joined #openttd
00:52:11  <kbrooks> I have a question
00:52:32  <kbrooks> How do I increase the perfomance of a company
01:08:40  *** Wolfensteijn [] has joined #openttd
01:08:42  *** Artea35 [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
01:10:06  *** Wolfy [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
01:19:42  *** glx [] has quit ["Bye!"]
01:24:27  *** roboboy is now known as roboman
01:55:06  *** The-Moon [] has quit ["Trillian ("]
02:09:05  *** Belugas [n=Jfranc@] has joined #openttd
02:18:58  *** Artea_ [] has joined #openttd
02:19:47  *** Artea_ is now known as Artea
02:20:08  *** Belugas_Gone [n=Jfranc@] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:31:09  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
03:01:17  *** Schamane_ [] has joined #openttd
03:02:35  *** BJH_ [] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]"]
03:05:01  *** egladil_ibook [] has joined #openttd
03:15:57  *** egladil [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
03:16:05  *** The-Moon [] has joined #openttd
03:18:23  *** SchAmane [] has quit [Connection timed out]
04:07:38  *** MrRexxie [] has joined #openttd
04:07:39  *** Rexxie [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
04:10:55  *** Forexs [] has quit ["Go on, get out. Last words are for fools who haven't said enough. - Karl Marx"]
04:59:40  *** wolf^_ [] has joined #openttd
04:59:52  *** wolf^ [n=wolf@pld-linux/wolf] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
05:00:04  *** KUDr_wrk [n=KUDr@] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
05:00:38  *** wolf^_ is now known as wolf^
05:28:53  *** ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
05:41:26  *** exe_ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
05:51:47  *** Zaviori [] has joined #openttd
05:53:21  *** Celestar [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
05:53:37  *** Netsplit <-> quits: hapo, toweri, Kalpa, Schamane_, CIA-3, Oak_, HackyKid, Eddi|zuHause, LIIT, roboman,  (+13 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
05:54:51  *** Netsplit over, joins: LIIT, Schamane_, Eddi|zuHause, Red956, roboman, guru3, Jezral, _max_, HackyKid, tank_ (+12 more)
05:56:17  *** _Red [] has joined #openttd
05:59:45  *** TinoM [] has joined #openttd
06:04:00  *** Spoco [] has joined #openttd
06:09:35  *** ThePizzaKing [] has quit ["-"]
06:10:08  *** Zavior [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
06:13:25  *** Celestar [] has joined #openttd
06:13:32  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
06:17:15  *** Mucht [] has joined #openttd
06:17:41  *** ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
06:17:48  *** Jenkz [] has joined #openttd
06:25:54  *** Celestar_ [] has joined #openttd
06:27:35  *** Zavior [] has joined #openttd
06:36:23  *** Hallo [] has joined #openttd
06:37:30  *** Celestar [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
06:39:58  *** Zr40 [] has joined #openttd
06:45:55  *** Zaviori [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
06:59:32  *** pwr [n=pwr@] has quit ["Client exiting"]
07:00:36  *** Celestar_ [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
07:09:26  *** Mucht is now known as Mucht|zZz
07:10:39  *** Celestar [] has joined #openttd
07:11:08  *** The-Moon [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
07:12:34  *** Osai [] has quit []
07:12:41  *** The-Moon [] has joined #openttd
07:17:24  *** Sedated_ [] has joined #openttd
07:19:26  *** Sedated [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
07:23:11  *** Zerot_ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
07:28:23  *** scia [] has joined #OpenTTD
07:41:34  *** Zerot [] has joined #openttd
07:42:27  *** DJ_Mirage [] has joined #openttd
07:45:29  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
08:01:24  *** Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
08:08:20  *** KUDr_wrk [n=KUDr@] has joined #openttd
08:11:29  *** Damme__ [] has joined #openttd
08:30:07  *** Damme [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
08:39:31  *** RichK67_wrk [] has joined #openttd
08:48:11  *** Osai^2 [] has joined #openttd
08:48:43  *** scia [] has quit [Client Quit]
08:49:40  <roboman> does anyone know that if you have the mouse button that allows you to move wound the map held down when you get disconnected from a mpgame that you can scroll the titlescreen
08:51:15  *** tokai [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
08:51:24  *** scia [] has joined #OpenTTD
08:54:31  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
08:55:25  *** tokai [] has quit [Client Quit]
08:55:30  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
09:04:30  *** Rens2Sea [n=Rens2Sea@] has joined #openTTD
09:07:28  <ThePizzaKing> roboman: I knew that, I read it somewhere
09:07:37  <ThePizzaKing> It works with Single Player too
09:07:50  <roboman> how do you do in sp
09:09:24  <ThePizzaKing> Open up a single player game, go to abandon game, then hold down the mouse button, then press enter
09:09:28  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
09:09:42  <ThePizzaKing> you should end up on the title screen and be able to scroll
09:10:14  <roboman> ok
09:10:23  <roboman> is it a bug
09:10:39  <roboman> ill try it in ttdp
09:12:41  <ThePizzaKing> Someone filed a bug report on SourceForge:
09:12:55  <ThePizzaKing> that must have been where I read about it
09:14:08  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
09:14:41  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
09:20:44  *** scia [] has quit [Client Quit]
09:21:07  *** ammler [] has joined #openttd
09:26:44  *** Mucht|work [n=Mucht@] has joined #openttd
09:32:34  *** TinoM| [] has joined #openttd
09:37:04  *** ammler [] has left #openttd []
09:46:55  *** zemei [] has joined #openttd
09:48:27  *** ammler [] has joined #openttd
09:49:33  *** TinoM [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
10:06:33  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
10:13:50  *** Osai^2 [] has quit []
10:18:27  *** Sacro [n=ben@adsl-83-100-181-211.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
10:18:48  *** A1win [] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
10:25:12  *** DJ_Mirage [] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
10:26:29  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has joined #openttd
10:29:01  <peter1138> known bug, but hardly important
10:29:09  <peter1138> consider it an easter egg ;)
10:30:00  <roboman> i geuse
10:30:07  <SpComb> it's a feature not a bug, doh
10:30:10  <roboman> ill see if its in tdp when i can
10:30:26  <roboman> i wasnt shure if it was a bug or not
10:31:14  <ln-> has the more serious one been fixed? the ear ring bug.
10:31:24  <peter1138> geuse?
10:31:43  <peter1138> that's not a bug
10:31:51  <peter1138> it's obvious they're all transsexual
10:33:39  <roboman> does anyone know what the source of the desynch of the second player bug
10:34:25  <roboman> in nightly r5431
10:39:01  *** CIA-3 [] has quit []
10:40:00  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
10:43:27  *** Ihmemies [] has joined #openttd
10:44:05  *** CIA-3 [] has joined #openttd
10:47:24  *** The-Moon [] has quit ["Trillian ("]
10:51:18  <roboman> yeah it seems to be the saves
10:51:21  <roboman> bah
10:52:36  *** Nickman87 [] has joined #openttd
10:53:13  <Nickman87> hi
10:56:46  <Sacro> Nickman87: hi
10:57:10  <roboman> the sb coop server keeps desyncing us
10:57:22  <roboman> everytime a second client joins
10:57:28  <Nickman87> or a third...
10:57:41  <TL|Away> roboman: even after a reload of a savegame?
10:57:50  <Nickman87> how do we do that?
10:58:15  <TL|Away> save the game, stop the server, start the server and load the game
10:58:31  <roboman> we need an admin for that
10:58:41  <roboman> thats part the problem
11:03:52  *** ThePizzaKing [] has quit ["-"]
11:05:10  <peter1138> h
11:05:42  <Sacro> i?
11:10:28  <TL|Away> LOL! Funny guy at forums:
11:10:30  <TL|Away> [quote="Archonix"]Why has nobody got arond to replacing files yet? Forgive me for saying so, but something like this should really be a very high priority if you want to get away from potential accusations of copyright infringement and the like... IMO, anyway.[/quote]
11:12:04  <ln-> tron would say: "end of discussion!"
11:12:06  *** ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
11:12:06  *** TL|Away is now known as TrueLight
11:13:03  *** DJ_Mirage [] has joined #openttd
11:15:15  <RichK67_wrk> well, we all know that OTTD is potentially on borrowed time - if the copyright owner wanted to, they could shut us down - however, a prosecution would likely fail, as AFAIK considerable effort was put in to obtain permission, and was met by indifference
11:15:43  *** thgergo [] has joined #openttd
11:16:08  <TrueLight> short for saying: he never replied once on any request :)
11:16:13  *** Mukke [] has joined #openttd
11:16:43  <anboni> and if "they" really wanted, they could probably shut OTTD down even when all the graphics got replaced by home-made stuff.. simply on the basis of "prior art"
11:17:27  <TrueLight> not to talk about the C-code
11:17:33  <TrueLight> but that was not my point
11:17:35  <TrueLight> the user
11:17:35  *** Forexs [] has joined #openttd
11:17:39  <TrueLight> being there all...
11:17:47  <anboni> yeah, clearly.. bit of a tool
11:18:03  <TrueLight> and not understanding how many images are in the grf files
11:18:09  <TrueLight> people should learn not to talk before asking :)
11:18:10  <RichK67_wrk> yeah, however when it comes to copyright, the owner has to show a level of protective-consistency... by not caring for so long, a judge would probably say "so why do you care now?"
11:18:37  <TrueLight> RichK67_wrk: invalid argument, a judge can't say that
11:18:47  <RichK67_wrk> they can, and do
11:18:49  <TrueLight> it still is a fact that we reversed engineerd it, and publish that
11:19:05  <TrueLight> so as long as his copyright stands, we can't win :)
11:19:06  <anboni> when was the last official publishing of TTD?
11:19:16  <TrueLight> But his copyright is running out of time ;)
11:19:36  <TrueLight> RichK67_wrk: for example, if we start to ask money for it
11:19:42  <TrueLight> and he sues us
11:19:44  <TrueLight> we will loose
11:19:52  <anboni> definately
11:19:53  <TrueLight> no matter how long there was between the start and now
11:20:06  <RichK67_wrk> true - we wouldnt *win*, but we probably wouldnt have to pay any punitive damages, just cease-and-desist using
11:20:19  <TrueLight> that because we are opensource community
11:20:29  <TrueLight> I mean, asking money from OpenTTD Team will result in failure
11:20:30  <anboni> we might even get axed if anyone (totally unrelated to ottd) would start selling a binary
11:20:35  <TrueLight> because all of a sudden we all exceed to exists
11:21:39  <RichK67_wrk> yes, we cannot charge for it; that would be very very likely to get the lawyers out :)
11:22:11  <Sacro> noooooo, no charge for openttd
11:22:17  <TrueLight> but okay, silly discussion
11:22:20  <TrueLight> it all doesn't matter
11:22:22  <RichK67_wrk> yeah
11:22:33  <anboni> of course, anyone selling a binary would probably also be in violation of the ottd license.. but not sure how far that would go in a court of law when facing atari (or whoever now owns the (c) )
11:22:53  <RichK67_wrk> as i said, we all know its a theoretical possibility, but getting less and less likely as the game gets older
11:23:04  <Sacro> anboni: i think its copywrite of the openttd developers, anyone who has contributed to the code
11:23:11  <TrueLight> anboni: TTD is owned by MicroPose, a company that is gone
11:23:16  <TrueLight> nobody really knows who owns it right now :)
11:23:21  <Sacro> *copyright, damn companies with stupid names
11:23:29  <Sacro> TrueLight: atari is your best bet
11:23:52  <anboni> Sacro, the (c) definately isn't with the ottd devs, since it's all at least prior art and parts of it reverse engineered
11:23:54  <RichK67_wrk> if microprose were bought out, then it is property of buyer
11:23:54  <Sacro> they own Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix series now
11:23:59  <roboman> yeah cause hasbro bought microprose
11:24:24  <TrueLight> but okay, I say: WHO GIVES A SHIT!
11:24:24  <TrueLight> :)
11:24:33  <Sacro> TrueLight: obviously not you
11:24:46  <Sacro> hmm, OpenTTD with MySQL
11:24:47  <roboman> then infogrames baught hasbro computer games then they changed there name to atari
11:24:47  <TrueLight> and neither should you guys :)
11:24:51  <RichK67_wrk> hey, its an interesting discussion for a boring Tuesday lunchtime :)
11:24:56  <roboman> yeah
11:25:31  <roboman> hey if i worked for atari and had acces to the copyright lists i would search
11:26:33  <roboman> and if i found it would tell you guys and the patch team first
11:26:36  <TrueLight> many people tried to figure out who now really owns the copyright
11:26:38  <TrueLight> nobody knows
11:26:43  * Sacro considers XML streaming output from OpenTTD through a unix socket
11:27:00  <TrueLight> Sacro: now that can be a good idea.. the MySQL idea is really idiotic
11:27:16  <Sacro> TrueLight: yes...unless your wanting to log it
11:27:23  <RichK67_wrk> with that chain of buyouts, it should be atari, but it does depend if the product was listed among the assets of the companies
11:27:42  <Sacro> i wonder its online anywhere
11:28:12  <RichK67_wrk> if not listed, then its ownership would not transfer (copyright must be explicitly transferred)
11:28:28  <TrueLight> Sacro: but MySQL is just plain overkill
11:28:35  <Sacro> infrogrames... :S
11:28:38  <hylje> :o
11:28:41  <Sacro> TrueLight: yep, i know
11:29:00  <Sacro> The takeover of Hasbro Inc,s interactive activities, including a 15-year exclusive licence on all Hasbro intellectual property, on all interactive formats, enables Infogrames to significantly reinforce its catalog and its market shares.
11:29:29  <RichK67_wrk> date?
11:29:37  <TrueLight> <- hehehehe
11:29:59  <Sacro> 00/01 financial year
11:30:15  <hylje> so.. ttd IP expires in 10 years or so?
11:30:19  <RichK67_wrk> damn - only 9 years to wait then ;)
11:30:25  <ln-> hylje: huh? why would it?
11:30:49  <Sacro> TrueLight: lets buy it and post a link to OpenTTD :P
11:31:13  <TrueLight> hehehehehe
11:31:15  <Sacro> ln-: 15 year licence
11:31:16  <TrueLight> would be a nice one :)
11:31:24  <TrueLight> we should ask orudge if there is any donation money we can use for it :)
11:31:37  <roboman> hehe
11:31:55  <ln-> copyright basically expires 70 years after the *death* of the author. and chris sawyer is not dead yet, and the graphics artist isn't either.
11:32:16  * Sacro considers a hunting spree
11:32:35  <RichK67_wrk> except where that person is working (employed) by a company, in which case copyright belongs to the employer
11:32:35  <roboman> hey can we get permision to use the gfx like train tycoon did
11:32:41  <Zavior> ln-, if if that is so in finland - it might not be abroad
11:33:02  <roboman> then all we have to do is get rid of the exe and other file copyright probs
11:33:08  <ln-> Zavior: EU
11:33:19  <TrueLight> roboman: the original gfx is already asked... someone mailed the guy.. I believe the reply was: fuck off :p
11:33:25  <TrueLight> only in somewhat nicer terms
11:33:27  <TrueLight> terms = words
11:33:37  <roboman> ok
11:33:42  <Zavior> How polite :P
11:33:42  <Sacro> TrueLight: please fuck off?
11:33:47  <hylje> heh
11:33:49  <TrueLight> he was very polite
11:34:00  <TrueLight> but I believe it was something like: I don't want have anything to do with this, and I don't own the copyright
11:34:16  <Sacro> :O Spectrum Holobyte -> Microprose
11:34:19  <ln-> TrueLight: the someone also asked "would you like to draw new graphics for us, for free?", which was a very stupid thing to ask really.
11:34:19  <RichK67_wrk> because he was an employee
11:34:31  <TrueLight> ln-: true true :)
11:34:35  <TrueLight> he didn't liked that AT ALL :p
11:34:55  <TrueLight> asking a real artist to do something for free, without him suggesting to do so, will mostly result in a: fuck off :;
11:34:57  <TrueLight> :p
11:35:42  <Sacro> May, 2003:  * Infogrames changed its corporate name to Atari Inc. Infogrames, after taking over Hasbro Interactive in 2001, is the copyright holder to most MicroProse intellectual property
11:36:17  <TrueLight> Sacro: the word 'most' is the problem :p
11:36:21  <RichK67_wrk> yeah - "Rich, will you come and photograph XYZ for me - oh I cant pay you..."     just what is the incentive for me to bring my £10,000 of camera gear then?? ;)
11:36:35  <ln-> TrueLight: has anyone considered buying the graphics and other stuff from the current copyright holder?
11:36:56  <Sacro> TrueLight: yes, it doesnt tell you much
11:37:08  <Sacro> RichK67_wrk: she'd be naked
11:37:12  <TrueLight> ln-: we don't know the current copyright holder, as far as I know :)
11:37:31  <RichK67_wrk> lol
11:37:46  <Sacro> <- i thought TTO didnt have 1 way signals..
11:38:09  <GoneWacko> That's because it's not TTO :o
11:38:15  <ln-> TrueLight: assuming "we" could find it out, how much money do you think would be needed?
11:38:40  <TrueLight> ln-: depends how much they like the game :p
11:38:45  <RichK67_wrk> microprose -> hasbro -> infogrames / atari.... its atari, unless one of those transfers messed up the rights transfer
11:39:23  <RichK67_wrk> lol - that would be funny.... if OTTD owned the copyright, we could charge TTDP a licence fee ;)
11:39:40  <roboman> would you
11:39:43  <RichK67_wrk> nah
11:39:45  <GoneWacko> no you couldn't
11:39:52  <Sacro> RichK67_wrk: heh, would be amusin
11:40:05  <GoneWacko> because they distribute just as much of the original files as openttd does
11:40:47  <roboman> anyway ttdp has piles of new features open doesnt so you would be disadvatging yourself
11:41:05  <RichK67_wrk> but if OpenTTD owned the copyright, we *would* have the legal right to do so... in fact, we could shut them down!! OTTD - the only true TT ;)      LOL..... just kidding of course
11:41:24  <roboman> hehe
11:41:35  <peter1138> except it's GPL, so...
11:41:56  <peter1138> hmm, minefield, then
11:42:12  <RichK67_wrk> Truelight: how long has OTTD been going, relative to TTDP?? im guessing TTDP is older by a couple of years??
11:42:40  <roboman> when did ottd start
11:42:53  <roboman> ttdp started 2000 i think
11:43:12  <RichK67_wrk> copyright takes precedence to GPL
11:44:17  <Sacro> 99 for ttdpatch
11:44:33  <RichK67_wrk> (and if you're wondering... ive looked a lot into copyright in the UK, to ensure I know what my rights are as a photographer, etc....)
11:45:07  <TrueLight> RichK67_wrk: first OpenTTD version was in 2003
11:45:12  <RichK67_wrk> 1998 Copyright, Designs, and Patents Act.... bleaaarrghhh
11:45:40  <RichK67_wrk> so TTDP has 4 years dev more than OTTD... wow!
11:45:54  <RichK67_wrk> OTTD is catching up *real* fast then
11:46:12  <hylje> could be faster
11:46:43  <kinnaz> ttdp isn't free ?
11:46:48  <RichK67_wrk> volunteering then, hylje?
11:47:11  <roboman> ttdp is free
11:47:13  <hylje> not really
11:47:15  <peter1138> ttdp is free
11:47:16  <ln-> we all know what slows down OTTD development.
11:47:24  <peter1138> my boss ;(
11:47:26  <RichK67_wrk> users
11:47:30  <ln-> no
11:47:33  <TrueLight> me!
11:47:37  <ln-> no
11:47:41  <TrueLight> :'(
11:47:42  <Zavior> 42?
11:47:54  *** IneQuation [] has joined #openttd
11:48:08  <TrueLight> atari doesn't list Transport Tycoon anywhere :p
11:48:17  <RichK67_wrk> actually, no... i dont know...
11:48:45  <roboman> nor did microprosxe or i couldnt find it using the wayback machine
11:48:47  <RichK67_wrk> as far as i see, OTTD's volunteer coders commit masses of changes really rapidly
11:49:04  <hylje> too rapidly, as seen with desyncing
11:49:11  <ln-> RichK67_wrk: maybe you need glasses
11:49:32  <RichK67_wrk> come on - what slows it down?? spit it out... i want to know
11:50:30  <TrueLight> But okay, seen the publishers of Chris Sawyer games, I ahve to agree that most likely Atari has the rights
11:50:35  <peter1138> antici ...
11:50:37  <peter1138> pation
11:50:38  <ln-> the reluctancy of accepting patches and implementing new features
11:50:46  <RichK67_wrk> maybe its all the time the devs waste wiping the arses of morons who cant read a (wiki) manual....
11:51:02  <TrueLight> Transport Tycoon, released through Microprose in 1994
11:51:03  <TrueLight> RollerCoaster Tycoon, released through Hasbro Interactive early in 1999
11:51:11  <TrueLight> RollerCoaster Tycoon 2 soon followed and was released through Infogrames Interactive in 2002.
11:51:15  <kinnaz> RichK67_wrk, don't bother yourself with that kind morons then
11:51:17  <TrueLight> Locomotion, was finally completed and released through Atari in October 2004.
11:51:19  <hylje> ln-: you suggesting we should merge MiniIN into trunk?
11:51:21  <TrueLight> he had all 4 publishers :)
11:51:44  <ln-> OpenTTD 2003, released through Sourceforge
11:52:14  <ln-> hylje: no one has told me what is this MiniIN everyone's talking about, and i haven't bothered to google for it.
11:52:24  <RichK67_wrk> In: having been through the process of getting a feature into trunk, yes it took a long time... end result is what I committed was tight - nigh on bug-free code
11:52:55  <hylje> ln-: its trunk with a fuckton of patches
11:53:05  <RichK67_wrk> would you rather we just commit any crap produced by every idiot out there, and spend 99% of our dev time debugging the crap
11:53:08  *** Maedhros [n=jc@gentoo/developer/Maedhros] has joined #openttd
11:53:24  <ln-> hylje: who decides what patches are accepted and what not?
11:53:30  <RichK67_wrk> I do :)
11:54:02  <RichK67_wrk> MiniIN is my project - to provide a test bed, and fun playhouse for non-core patches
11:54:22  <hylje> miniin is cool, apart from the occassional desync
11:55:04  <roboman> ttdp has practically dcipped the stable
11:55:34  <roboman> 2.5 is purely bugfixing for the stable and all the bightlies are 2.6 alpha 0
11:55:38  <ln-> RichK67_wrk: i didn't say that. but when accepting or even stating opinion about a 20-line patch fixing a 1-year-old serious bug takes more than 4 months, something is wrong.
11:55:43  <RichK67_wrk> but even so, I ensure that what goes in meets 3 tests: 1) trunk games must *always* load into MiniIN, 2) older MiniIN games must always load, 3) it must not (obviously) break an existing feature
11:56:09  <RichK67_wrk> maybe you are asking the wrong people in the wrong way
11:56:27  <hylje> "merge this patch or ill fucking kill(TM) you"
11:58:37  <RichK67_wrk> maybe the devs you ask dont regard it as a priority - if it causes a CTD, then it usually gets looked at quickly... if its basically cosmetic, or affects a tiny number of players on a low-popularity platform, then although its critical to you, it isnt to everyone else
11:58:59  <RichK67_wrk> anyway, what is it?
11:59:17  <RichK67_wrk> got a link?
11:59:37  <ln-> it has been committed already, although it almost caused Tron a heart attack
12:00:09  <RichK67_wrk> so get over it then... if its in, relax, chill, etc..
12:01:00  <RichK67_wrk> thats ok... Im sure Tron has more than one ;)     (he's the Doctor you know ;) )
12:04:17  *** ammler [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:07:43  <TrueLight> peter1138: ping
12:08:02  <TrueLight> elrail has a desync bug
12:08:33  <peter1138> pong
12:08:36  <peter1138> uh oh
12:08:44  <TrueLight> peter1138: you know a thing or two about the elrail code?
12:08:44  <peter1138> Celestar! P
12:08:49  <TrueLight> okh, Celestar: ping
12:08:56  <peter1138> a little
12:09:05  *** Sacro [n=ben@adsl-83-100-181-211.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:09:06  <TrueLight> train_cmd.c, line 2030 causes desync
12:09:07  <peter1138> enough to look at it and laugh at the mistake ;)
12:09:21  <TrueLight> let me put in some more info there
12:09:33  <peter1138> hmm. that's not elrails
12:09:38  <TrueLight> blue spark?
12:09:43  <peter1138> yeah
12:09:44  <TrueLight> EV_ELECTRIC_SPARK?
12:09:48  <TrueLight> on train code?
12:09:51  <peter1138> yes
12:09:56  <peter1138> that was there before elrails
12:09:59  <TrueLight> I assume that only happens when elrail vehicle is tehre :p
12:10:04  <peter1138> well, yes
12:10:08  <peter1138> now, anyway
12:10:13  <TrueLight> :)
12:10:17  <TrueLight> and that I guess went a bit wrong
12:10:31  <peter1138> so, uh, what's the problem there?
12:10:47  <TrueLight> the server does has the first piece of the if as true, the client doesn't
12:10:57  <peter1138> hmmmmmm
12:11:05  <TrueLight> I added some more info, see what really is causing it..
12:11:07  <TrueLight> I hope anyway ;)
12:11:10  <peter1138> how the fuck did you find that? :P
12:11:16  <TrueLight> random-debugging
12:11:19  <TrueLight> and a good savegame
12:11:23  <TrueLight> and some luck :p
12:11:32  <peter1138> so that's not really the cause
12:11:37  <peter1138> why is v->tick_counter different
12:11:43  <TrueLight> my question :)
12:11:47  <TrueLight> or engine_type
12:11:49  <RichK67_wrk> one of the brianetta saves??
12:11:55  <TrueLight> RichK67_wrk: no, coop save
12:12:03  <peter1138> engine_type is very unlikely
12:12:09  <RichK67_wrk> cool anyway... well done on it
12:12:10  <TrueLight> peter1138: but you never know :)
12:12:14  <peter1138> unless of course, it's the old newgrf not loaded chestnut
12:12:27  <TrueLight> peter1138: there are grfs loaded in this game, so..
12:12:42  <peter1138> yeah... as long as they're all loaded it should be fine
12:12:52  <peter1138> (of course
12:13:04  <peter1138> why the fuck am i saying something you know is plainly obvious?
12:13:19  <TrueLight> because you love me?
12:13:24  <peter1138> that's true
12:13:28  <peter1138> and you're not away ;)
12:13:32  <TrueLight> :)
12:14:53  <RichK67_wrk> bbl
12:15:23  <Nickman87> hi all :)
12:15:36  *** Triffid_Hunter [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
12:16:05  <TrueLight> peter1138: now this is weird....
12:16:28  <TrueLight> engine_type isn't the same on server and client
12:16:32  *** angerman [] has joined #openttd
12:16:35  <peter1138> o_O
12:16:43  <TrueLight> effect_type
12:16:43  <TrueLight> sorry
12:16:52  <peter1138> ah
12:16:54  <peter1138> hmm
12:17:26  <peter1138> what about v->u.rail.cached_vis_effect ?
12:17:39  <TrueLight> will try that in a moment
12:17:44  <peter1138> hmm, this smells
12:17:46  <TrueLight> it btw doesn't always desync
12:17:57  <TrueLight> okay, it does :p
12:18:06  <HackyKid> well, it is possible for a newgrf to cause a desync
12:18:07  <peter1138> i spy a difficult desync issue there
12:18:11  <peter1138> HackyKid: yeah
12:18:19  <TrueLight> yup
12:18:19  <peter1138> it's updated on game load
12:18:24  <TrueLight> and fior the first time, I like to trace that :)
12:18:25  <HackyKid> yeah
12:18:40  <HackyKid> so if some stuff in the cache depends on... direction of the vehicle
12:18:41  <peter1138> so the return value could be different than from the existing loaded value
12:18:43  <peter1138> yes
12:18:50  <peter1138> or any vehicle var
12:18:57  <peter1138> that means all those cached vars should be saved
12:19:04  <peter1138> *argh*
12:19:35  <TrueLight> peter1138: the most annoying thing, I start the server from a savegame, and within some seconds I let the client join
12:19:43  <peter1138> hmm
12:19:54  <peter1138> is it possible to start it paused and join then?
12:19:54  <TrueLight> so I guess making the cached values isn't via a static way, but depends on some surroundings
12:20:12  <peter1138> TrueLight: it depends on newgrf action 2 == totally up to the grf author
12:20:12  <TrueLight> possible, and that might wokr, but let me try to trace it first :)
12:20:29  <HackyKid> well, newgrf has the ability to base something on virtually anything, heh
12:20:31  <TrueLight> peter1138: but no way that it should produce desyncs :p
12:21:11  <TrueLight> if I join REALLY quick, it doesn't desync
12:21:15  <TrueLight> I have to wait for some secs
12:21:19  <HackyKid> and some wrong assumption where made then, like max-speed only changing when a consist changes
12:21:53  <HackyKid> hmm
12:23:01  <TrueLight> argh, and now it doesn't want to desync at all :p So very annoying :)
12:24:13  <Nickman87> haha :D
12:24:22  <roboman> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
12:24:41  <TrueLight> log files are 25MB each... and I run them for just 1 minute :p
12:24:56  <peter1138> TrueLight: do you know which newgrf it's coming from?
12:25:09  <peter1138> or should i just go ahead and save these values?
12:25:10  <TrueLight> +2850 2 23 8 <- this happens on the client, but not on the server, first time
12:25:14  <TrueLight> after that, it goes very wrong
12:25:22  <TrueLight> 2850 is index number
12:25:26  <peter1138> where's that? hehe
12:25:33  <TrueLight> effect_Type is 2
12:25:37  <TrueLight> v->tick_counter is 23
12:25:42  <TrueLight> and the other is that cached value
12:25:56  <TrueLight> but okay, what is weird here, is that the server never comes to this
12:26:00  <peter1138> so we can either save the cached value
12:26:01  <peter1138> or
12:26:09  <peter1138> recalculate it all the time (hence it's not very cached)
12:26:11  <TrueLight> so neither of those values is to blame
12:26:19  <TrueLight> Something else is...
12:26:33  <peter1138> i hate desyncs :)
12:26:39  <TrueLight> this is an easy one
12:28:07  <peter1138> mmm
12:28:16  <peter1138> you don't have to wait 2 hours each time :)
12:28:29  <TrueLight> that is one of the conditions to trace any desync :)
12:29:04  <guru3> good news everyone
12:29:12  <guru3> i'll be able to go to uni it england it seems :D
12:29:15  <Nickman87> aha?
12:29:23  <TrueLight> :) Concratz :)
12:29:36  * guru3 is so happy
12:29:43  <guru3> my parents may let up on yelling at me :D :D :D
12:30:35  <TrueLight> Lol, I am dumping so much data, that the clients run too slow to stay in the game :p My IO can't handle it :)
12:30:53  <hylje> hah
12:31:01  <hylje> doesnt that mean.. time for better hardware?
12:31:13  <TrueLight> 70 MB per 20 seconds
12:31:19  <TrueLight> so 3.5 MB per second
12:31:21  <TrueLight> 3 times
12:31:24  <TrueLight> 2 times a graphical client
12:31:27  <TrueLight> I can't blame him :p
12:31:48  *** Sacro [n=ben@adsl-83-100-181-159.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
12:33:42  <TrueLight> so funny in coop, they are blaming all kind of things for the desyncs :p
12:33:58  <Nickman87> we are tryin some stuff... :D
12:34:05  <peter1138> oh?
12:34:10  <Nickman87> can't blame us for trying ;)
12:34:16  <peter1138> terraforming was always suspicious
12:34:21  <Nickman87> like idsabling some features... :D
12:34:23  *** ThePizzaKing [] has quit ["-"]
12:34:24  <Nickman87> haha :D
12:34:34  <peter1138> maybe the recent terraforming changes have fixed it... who knows
12:34:37  <TrueLight> At least youu gys are trying :)
12:34:48  <Nickman87> :D
12:35:30  <Nickman87> any clues coming in? :d
12:36:05  <TrueLight> diff over 169MB files is somehow a bit slow
12:36:14  <Nickman87> hehe :D
12:37:08  <TrueLight> it should give a 100% match
12:37:13  <TrueLight> annoying ;)
12:37:22  <TrueLight> diff: memory exhausted
12:37:24  <TrueLight> LOL!
12:37:34  <Nickman87> huh? :p
12:37:37  <hylje> ::D
12:38:20  <ln-> RichK67_wrk: would you accept this kind of patch into MiniIN:
12:38:59  <hylje> how do you transport it
12:39:03  <Nickman87> how you ognna transpport it? power lines?
12:39:05  <hylje> with hueg batteries?
12:39:08  <Nickman87> haha :D
12:39:53  <ln-> hylje: you don't transport it.
12:40:02  <hylje> k
12:40:17  <Nickman87> sow hats the use?
12:40:47  <ln-> what's the use of that smoke coming from the pipes?
12:40:57  <hylje> eye candy
12:41:04  <Nickman87> :D
12:41:13  <Nickman87> touché!
12:41:14  <hylje> you should gief the town buildings a electrisity value?
12:41:36  <Nickman87> well I'm off for now, bye all ;)
12:41:39  <hylje> and have the town grow faster if it got a well fed powerplant
12:41:43  <anboni> make electric trains actually need electricity :)
12:41:44  <hylje> nearby
12:41:50  <hylje> yah that maybe too?
12:41:55  <hapo> sounds like a viable idea.
12:42:27  <Nickman87> go for it ;)
12:42:32  *** Nickman87 [] has left #openttd []
12:42:40  <ln-> i like the idea too
12:42:44  <hylje> either the powerplants just magically provide power around it
12:43:02  <hylje> or somebody has to build the lines to a town
12:43:19  <TrueLight> SimCity all over again :p
12:43:22  <hylje> yes
12:43:34  <ln-> powering the towns is kind of beyond the scope of the game, but powering one's own electric tracks would not be.
12:43:41  <hapo> ln-: true
12:43:44  <hapo> I thught the same
12:43:48  <hapo> +o
12:43:56  <hylje> hmm
12:44:14  <hylje> didnt someone make a patch for elrails to need electrisity already
12:44:18  <TrueLight> and if you don't produce enough, part of the system will come without power? :p
12:44:30  <Sacro> hylje: yes...think it might have been gigajum
12:44:33  <hylje> yes, liek in later simcities
12:44:43  <ln-> TrueLight: either so, or alternatively you need to pay more for the electricity you use.
12:44:47  <Sacro> TrueLight: yep, no coal to power stations, no power for trains
12:45:04  <hylje> but it would not have to be mandatory?
12:45:13  <hylje> it would just cost more to run those trains
12:46:16  <TrueLight> peter1138: some value seems to be always 2 less then what it should be
12:46:22  <TrueLight> but I don't know what value, something went wrong :
12:46:22  <TrueLight> p
12:46:29  <ln-> let's say there could be power lines going around the map, built by the government. one could power the elrails from those lines.
12:47:33  <hylje> yes
12:47:37  <peter1138> heh
12:47:47  <peter1138> take the battery wagons from toyland :)
12:47:50  <hylje> :D
12:47:54  <RichK67_wrk> back
12:48:06  <hapo> ln-: but there's no central government in OpenTTD :)
12:48:08  <hapo> just municipalities.
12:48:24  <ln-> hapo: well who owns the buoys?
12:48:24  <hylje> lets say the power plants start to build them after they get fed
12:48:33  <hapo> ln-: an interesting question.
12:48:38  <TrueLight> peter1138: v->tick_counter is incorrect
12:48:40  <RichK67_wrk> In: if that pic is just cosmetic, then i dont see the point... if not, i would rather see the patch
12:49:03  <peter1138> hmm
12:49:11  <ln-> RichK67_wrk: it's a cosmetic patch, yes.
12:49:33  <roboman> gnight
12:49:43  <ln-> RichK67_wrk: and please adjust your font so that you can see the difference of l, I, 1, and I.
12:49:46  <peter1138> how can tick_counter be wrong...
12:50:06  <TrueLight> it happens DIRECTLY after the game is started
12:50:13  <TrueLight> the effects only take a while to notice
12:50:54  <RichK67_wrk> bah... pick a sensible name then :P
12:51:25  <TrueLight> it is exactly 2 behind the correct value
12:52:39  <RichK67_wrk> ell-en-hyphen: seems simple enough - post it in the MiniIN thread, and follow the instructions on the MiniIN-wiki to create it as a MiniIN-patch... but i wont be doing any updates this week... waaaaaaaaaaay too busy
12:55:05  <ln-> the patch was made against revision 366, i wonder if it still merges to current revision.. :)
12:55:30  <hylje> :o
12:55:44  <TrueLight> I wouldn't place any money on it
12:55:59  <TrueLight> peter1138: I am trying to confirm that tick_counter is wrong
12:56:02  <peter1138> 366? pretty ancient...
12:56:04  <TrueLight> takes some time to confirm :)
12:56:48  <peter1138> yeah
12:57:02  <TrueLight> massive data-burst :)
12:57:51  <ln-> i'm not sure if it's revision 366 before or after the great fuckup of repository.
12:57:58  <ln-> probably after.
12:58:27  <RichK67_wrk> how long is it.... it may be quicker to do manually
12:58:59  <ln-> well here it is:
12:59:06  <TrueLight> hmmz, peter1138, this is pretty weird
12:59:33  <TrueLight> peter1138: I dumped data when tick_counter is increased
12:59:36  <TrueLight> and then it is correct
13:00:28  <RichK67_wrk> any chance of it non-gzipped... i dont have the facilities on my work machine to look at it
13:00:50  <RichK67_wrk> plain .diff is fine
13:01:52  <ln-> did you try opening it, btw? ... at least my browser un-gzips it on-the-fly
13:02:57  <ln-> nonetheless, here it is without gzipping:
13:02:57  <TrueLight> normal browsers can do that ;)
13:03:31  <TrueLight> LOL! Big patch :p
13:03:52  <RichK67_wrk> ok, cool - yes, firefox coped fine... well, you learn something new every day ;)
13:04:13  <peter1138> what a nasty hack
13:04:48  <ln-> peter1138: indeed
13:04:50  *** Frostregen_ [] has joined #openttd
13:05:48  <ln-> peter1138: but adding a new real cargo type would require quite much work, would it not?
13:05:59  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
13:06:10  <TrueLight> I believe temperate has some room
13:06:13  <RichK67_wrk> be better to test "if industry is a power station, and has received cargo"
13:06:19  <SpComb>  STR_PERFORMANCE_DETAIL_LOAN_TIP  :{BLACK}Do you have a high loan? Visit for expert help and premium mortagin plans!
13:07:14  <Oak_> wtf
13:07:29  <RichK67_wrk> it may be an ugly hack, and not worthy of trunk, but its fine for MiniIN...
13:09:13  *** eQualizer [] has joined #openttd
13:10:57  <TrueLight> grr, DESYNC BITCH
13:10:58  <TrueLight> ah
13:11:00  <TrueLight> it listens :)
13:11:59  <peter1138>  o_O
13:12:25  <TrueLight> 'diff' can't really handle a prefix difference of 12000 lines :p
13:12:42  <TrueLight> peter1138: ieuw! Dirty freak!
13:12:49  <SpComb> hmm
13:13:13  <SpComb> ye olde
13:13:28  <TrueLight> peter1138: okay, I take it back, the problems, it seems 'diff' just made a big boo-hoo
13:13:38  *** scia [] has joined #OpenTTD
13:13:43  <TrueLight> I am back to square one :)
13:13:45  <TrueLight> okay, other approach!
13:14:38  <RichK67_wrk> ok... time to concentrate on work :(
13:14:41  <RichK67_wrk> bbl
13:14:45  *** RichK67_wrk [] has quit []
13:16:01  *** Belugas_Gone is now known as Belugas
13:16:17  <Belugas> hello boys and girls
13:16:22  <TrueLight> hi Belugas
13:16:45  <TrueLight> desync
13:16:46  <TrueLight> stupid freak
13:16:48  <TrueLight> why don't you
13:16:49  <TrueLight> just desync
13:16:52  <TrueLight> when I want you to
13:16:52  <TrueLight> grrr
13:17:17  <TrueLight> it depends very much at which tick I join, when it desyncs
13:17:21  <TrueLight> it can go very fast
13:17:25  <TrueLight> and can take for ever
13:18:26  <Belugas> Hello TrueLight
13:22:07  <TrueLight> peter1138: something weird is going on
13:23:04  *** Frostregen [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:23:25  *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
13:25:52  <TrueLight> I receive very inconsistent data
13:28:57  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
13:33:08  <TrueLight> peter1138: cur_speed is different.....
13:33:46  <TrueLight> and that slowly works towards a problem
13:34:17  <TrueLight> on the server the vehicle already is in a depot
13:34:25  <TrueLight> on the client it is about the go into a depot
13:35:11  <TrueLight> and this can be the realistic acceleration
13:35:23  <TrueLight> so possible newgrf gives a problem if the weight of a vehicle can be different?
13:41:03  <TrueLight> peter1138: ping
13:41:12  <peter1138> unlikely, but possible, i think
13:41:28  <peter1138> that boils down to the cached variables again
13:41:32  <TrueLight> Can you think about the folliwing problem:
13:41:43  <TrueLight> saving, even for a server, happens in a thread, right?
13:42:16  <peter1138> i didn't think it did for a server
13:42:29  <TrueLight> hmmz
13:42:30  <TrueLight> let me check that
13:42:40  <TrueLight> because it looks like that sometimes when you join
13:43:02  <TrueLight> the data in the savegame isn't the same as on the server
13:44:36  <TrueLight> ah, indeed, a server doesn't use thread
13:47:29  <TrueLight> very weird this all is
13:47:40  <TrueLight> I truely register inconsitent data from time to time
13:47:43  <TrueLight> but rarely at the same spot
13:50:18  <peter1138> o_O
13:50:23  <peter1138> hmm
13:50:27  *** Morlark [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
13:50:27  <TrueLight> every time it shows itself at those sparks
13:50:30  <peter1138> is it possible to pause it at a specific frame?
13:50:36  <peter1138> to repeatedly test it
13:51:48  <TrueLight> is the pause-on-no-clients not in SVN yet?
13:52:44  <TrueLight> so far I noticed it can result in 2 problems
13:52:47  <TrueLight> either the speed isn't the same
13:53:01  <TrueLight> if (IsTileDepotType(v->tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL) || IsTunnelTile(v->tile)) {
13:53:02  <TrueLight>                         if (_networking && (DEREF_CLIENT(0)->status != STATUS_INACTIVE || !_network_server))
13:53:06  <TrueLight> or that line shows inconsistent
13:53:07  <TrueLight> euh
13:53:09  <TrueLight> forget the second :p
13:53:15  <TrueLight> if (IsTileDepotType(v->tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL) || IsTunnelTile(v->tile)) {
13:53:16  <TrueLight> thatone :p
13:53:46  <TrueLight> (server says true on the if, client says false)
13:55:38  <baske> Sacro: is there an easy way for such xml streaming?
13:55:56  <TrueLight> btw, breakdown function is called and handled even if it is disabled :) When it is half-way, it stops when you disabled breakdown ;)
13:58:44  <ln-> what a waste of cpu time!
13:59:19  <TrueLight> not only that
13:59:29  <TrueLight> it can also make all vehicles break down when you siwtch off no breakdown
13:59:38  <TrueLight> because the counter is gotten pretty high
14:00:16  <TrueLight> peter1138: now even the vehstatus is different from server to client
14:00:22  <TrueLight> every time on a random vehicle
14:00:22  <TrueLight> hmmz
14:00:28  <TrueLight> smells like buffer overflow :s
14:00:56  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
14:04:08  <Sacro> baske: maybe...depends what info is required to be output
14:04:09  <TrueLight> bah, I will look into this problem later
14:04:11  <TrueLight> this just sucks ass
14:04:52  <baske> Sacro: just quarterly data, some gamevars as money, loan, number of vehicles, ...
14:04:57  <Brianetta> TrueLight: I have three saves
14:05:03  <Brianetta> taken from my server yesterday
14:05:26  <Brianetta> They are the last three on-join-saves autopilot took before Rich desynced
14:05:47  <TrueLight> Brianetta: I have a savegame localhost now
14:05:54  <TrueLight> that desyncs me 1 out of the 5 within 3 game-days
14:06:03  <TrueLight> but the data I so far received are VERY weird
14:06:10  <Sacro> baske: well it shouldnt be that hard to do
14:06:16  <TrueLight> the data on the server and client isdifferent
14:06:26  <TrueLight> but every run it differs differently
14:06:34  <baske> just writing tag after tag then?
14:06:37  <Brianetta> Something not using the correct RNG?
14:06:49  <baske> (logically grouped of course)
14:06:53  <TrueLight> RNG?
14:07:17  <Brianetta> random number generator
14:07:24  <Brianetta> There are two, aren't there?
14:07:33  <Brianetta> One that doesn't change The Seed
14:08:28  <TrueLight> Hehe, they both change seeds, just different onces
14:08:30  *** A1win [] has joined #openttd
14:08:31  <TrueLight> but no, that is not the problem
14:08:33  <TrueLight> the random is perfect
14:08:42  <TrueLight> the data of a vehicle seems broken
14:08:47  <TrueLight> but I need to look into it more to give more details
14:09:11  <peter1138> so
14:09:16  <peter1138> what about if no newgrfs are loaded?
14:09:28  <peter1138> (it'll probably fuck up in different ways)
14:09:29  <TrueLight> will test all that later
14:09:31  <TrueLight> not now
14:09:34  <peter1138> kk
14:09:37  <peter1138> but
14:09:37  <Brianetta> The random might be perfect, but if somethinf somewhere calls the other RNG (the C one) then it's going to end up doing something differently.
14:09:41  <peter1138> i thought you liked testing ;)
14:10:03  <peter1138> Brianetta: i think truelight is aware how his network code works ;)
14:10:13  <TrueLight> Brianetta: read my lips: the random shit isn't a problem :)
14:10:34  <Brianetta> ):
14:10:41  <Brianetta> It might not be in the network code ):
14:10:44  <Brianetta> Could be anywhere
14:11:13  <TrueLight> Either the savegame doesn't save all the needed data
14:11:20  <TrueLight> Either the cached values are calculated wrong
14:11:29  <TrueLight> Either there is a bufferoverflow somewhere destroying good data
14:11:34  <TrueLight> Or something else is wrong :)
14:11:49  <TrueLight> Currently, I see in multiple runs: different cur_speed on server/client
14:11:53  <TrueLight> different vehstatus
14:11:58  <TrueLight> different x/y position on the map
14:12:38  <Brianetta> I'm just wondering how the same bug can cause different values on the same architecture
14:13:03  <Brianetta> Seeing as the game is supposed to be a predictable function
14:13:19  <TrueLight> Say, the software writes at pointer A
14:13:25  <TrueLight> no matter what run, it writes in pointer A
14:13:37  <TrueLight> different runs make the memory move a bit
14:13:44  <TrueLight> mostly it is in about the same place, but just a bit different
14:13:50  <TrueLight> so, there is one possibility
14:13:56  <Brianetta> ah, so if that pointer isn't loaded properly when the game is loaded on join
14:13:59  <TrueLight> I doubt that is the case, but as you can see, there are enough options ;)
14:14:03  <Brianetta> then the data is written elsewhere
14:14:18  <TrueLight> newgrf is a whole other story then can give tons of problems, but I doubt that is the problem too
14:14:27  <TrueLight> so short, there is enough to check and where it can go wrong
14:14:35  <TrueLight> but, it seems to be a very weird problem to me right now
14:14:43  <Brianetta> May the source be with you
14:14:58  <TrueLight> I first want a reproducable setting
14:15:06  <TrueLight> that I know EXACTLY when it will fail
14:15:10  <TrueLight> for now, that isn't the case
14:20:29  *** Damme__ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
14:30:05  <CIA-3> miham * r5481 /trunk/lang/danish.txt:
14:30:05  <CIA-3> WebTranslator2 update to 2006-07-11 16:29:48
14:30:05  <CIA-3> danish - 3 fixed, 193 changed by ThomasA (196)
14:32:33  <TrueLight> ah, bah, I can't leave it alone :p
14:32:39  <TrueLight> hehe, now I have the speed-problem again :)
14:32:45  <TrueLight> on server the vehicle goes with 230
14:32:48  <TrueLight> on the client with 229
14:32:58  <TrueLight> so of course that will result in a desync at some point :)
14:33:11  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
14:34:00  <TrueLight> yeah, reproducable :)
14:34:15  <TrueLight> This channel is now my notepad :p
14:34:17  <TrueLight> 240 2536 188
14:34:17  <TrueLight>  240 2537 56
14:34:17  <TrueLight>  2) 57 0
14:34:17  <TrueLight> -5) No-return: 8 0 230
14:34:17  <TrueLight> +5) No-return: 8 0 229
14:34:21  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
14:34:55  <Brianetta> Bah. tunnel collapsed
14:38:17  <TrueLight> 240 2536 188
14:38:17  <TrueLight>  240 2537 56
14:38:17  <TrueLight>  2) 57 0
14:38:17  <TrueLight> -5) No-return: 8 0 230
14:38:17  <TrueLight> +5) No-return: 8 0 229
14:38:24  <TrueLight> oeh, this is nice, even the same vehicle
14:38:40  *** Trenskow [n=outlet@] has joined #openttd
14:38:53  *** Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
14:39:28  <Brianetta> Which debugger are you using?
14:40:12  <TrueLight> OpenTTD :p
14:40:25  <peter1138> heh
14:41:33  *** TinoM| is now known as TinoM
14:41:51  <TrueLight> okay, realistic acceleration seems to fuck this up
14:42:12  <TrueLight> it goes in with the same speed
14:42:17  <TrueLight> and on server it becomes an other speed
14:42:24  <TrueLight> NEED MORE INFO! :)
14:42:51  <peter1138> hmm
14:43:13  <peter1138> realistic acceleration is dodgy, but...
14:43:23  <TrueLight> I think it will return to a newgrf thingy :)
14:43:36  <TrueLight> but that is just a wild guess
14:43:37  <TrueLight> we will see :)
14:44:05  <peter1138> did it desync without newgrfs?
14:44:11  <TrueLight> didn't tried yet
14:44:45  <TrueLight> hmmz
14:44:48  <TrueLight> and when I join just a bit later
14:44:51  <TrueLight> the speed is perfect
14:44:56  <TrueLight> but the position seems to be wrong :p
14:44:58  <TrueLight> this is SO FUNNY :)
14:45:34  <TrueLight> without grf, same problem
14:45:38  <TrueLight> okay, peter1138, you are free ;)
14:45:42  *** Trenskow [n=outlet@] has quit ["Read error: Connection reset by sortepeer"]
14:46:18  <TrueLight> lol
14:46:24  <TrueLight> the server has tis vehicle on an other tile
14:46:25  <TrueLight> funny :p
14:46:44  <TrueLight> server says: 70336
14:46:49  <TrueLight> client says: 70080
14:46:59  <TrueLight> no wonder it goes wrong ;)
14:47:57  <TrueLight> 0x112c0
14:48:05  <TrueLight> 0x111c0
14:48:07  <TrueLight> so just 1 tile
14:49:00  <TrueLight> hmmz
14:49:03  <TrueLight> smells like pathfinder bug
14:49:06  <Sacro> IRC debug...
14:49:18  <TrueLight> if this is YAPF, I kill you KUDr :p
14:49:22  <TrueLight> you do nderstand that? :p
14:49:29  <TrueLight> problem hapens on a tile where a train can go 2 ways
14:49:52  <TrueLight> on the server it goes one way, on the client the other way
14:50:11  <TrueLight> so it looks like YAPF doesn't save everything it needs to save
14:50:26  <TrueLight> (and that also explains the sensitivity to when joining
14:50:44  <TrueLight> so, KUDr: ping
14:51:08  <peter1138> it's yapf? o_O
14:51:09  <KUDr_wrk> pong
14:51:17  <TrueLight> yes, I am very sure it is YAPF
14:51:29  <KUDr_wrk> what?
14:51:33  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: are all states saved of YAPF when saving?
14:51:34  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
14:51:41  <TrueLight> YAPF is causing desyncs on a crazy rate
14:51:49  <KUDr_wrk> hmm
14:51:52  <TrueLight> on the server the train goes left, on the client the train goes right
14:51:53  <KUDr_wrk> it didn't
14:52:04  <Sacro>
14:52:06  <KUDr_wrk> different route?
14:52:16  <TrueLight> I guess the routes come back together at some stage
14:52:18  <KUDr_wrk> then it must have different settings, not state
14:52:26  <peter1138> the settings are synced, no?
14:52:30  <TrueLight> yeah, sure, I think that is the problem too :p
14:52:31  <TrueLight> DAH!
14:52:36  <TrueLight> I even run it from the same directory
14:52:39  <KUDr_wrk> and settings should be saved at least in MP
14:53:02  <KUDr_wrk> hmmm
14:53:03  <peter1138> so... are they being saved correctly, hmm..
14:53:13  <peter1138> printing them out should be easy, heh
14:53:26  <TrueLight> my guess is that the server doesn't save everything there is to save
14:53:36  <KUDr_wrk> do we have reproducible case with savegame?
14:53:42  <TrueLight> I right now have
14:53:45  <peter1138> scroll back ;)
14:53:50  <TrueLight> indeed, scroll back :p
14:53:55  <KUDr_wrk> YAPF has no state except cache
14:54:04  <TrueLight> when you load the game just a bit later, it doesn't desync, but that is pretty logic :)
14:54:09  <KUDr_wrk> and cache should be always in sync with map
14:54:10  <TrueLight> so, the cache is build wrong :p
14:54:21  <KUDr_wrk> maybe
14:54:22  <peter1138> hmmm, the cache
14:54:36  <peter1138> the cache'll be built later on the client... so could be different?
14:54:50  <peter1138> (like the newgrf cached vars)
14:54:57  <KUDr_wrk> if somebody added some feature changing layout or if i forgot to add notification about layout change
14:55:22  <peter1138> is there some way of determining if the cache is the same?
14:55:49  <KUDr_wrk> peter: cache will never be the same
14:55:49  <TrueLight> KUDr: I load the game and do absolutely nothing
14:55:52  <TrueLight> on both server as client
14:55:58  <KUDr_wrk> some info is not cached
14:56:09  <eQualizer> Okay, I'm having this weird bug... I'm getting news reports about road vehicle crash, but none of my car's haven't crashed and what I see in the news are airplanes.
14:56:11  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
14:56:12  <TrueLight> still, the client and server react different in some places
14:56:17  <KUDr_wrk> and cab be cached later
14:56:34  <KUDr_wrk> i need to repro it
14:56:39  <TrueLight> KUDr: where is the cache stored, and how can I print it?
14:56:55  <peter1138> KUDr_wrk: but they should be the same, surely? else the routes chosen could be different...
14:57:03  <glx> eQualizer: it's known: it's caused by asynchronous news
14:58:09  <KUDr_wrk> peter1138: if some information is not yet cached on the client, then they can differ
14:58:22  <KUDr_wrk> peter1138: cache is build on the fly
14:58:34  <KUDr_wrk> when first time accessing the map
14:59:00  <KUDr_wrk> TrueLight: it will not help you to print it
14:59:37  <KUDr_wrk> TrueLight: it will surely differ in layout - server will have it stored in different order
14:59:52  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: so that can cause desync easily?
15:00:05  <TrueLight> I mean, as soon as the server makes 1 different path then the client, we have a big desync
15:00:12  <eQualizer> And why is my helicopters going to hangars to stay there?
15:00:15  <TrueLight> so it is very much needed to even keep cache on both server and client the same
15:00:33  <KUDr_wrk> only if information there is obsoleted (no notification was received about layout change)
15:00:42  <glx> eQualizer: which version?
15:00:49  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: again: I load a savegame on the server and I do absolutely nothing
15:00:59  <eQualizer> Oh, they are renewed, but still...
15:01:00  <KUDr_wrk> they should never make different paths
15:01:05  <eQualizer> glx: 0.4.7
15:01:06  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: but they do
15:01:14  <KUDr_wrk> only if information there is obsoleted (no notification was received about layout change)if they do - then it is big bug
15:01:16  <KUDr_wrk> i agree
15:01:17  <Brianetta> KUDr: Is there a means to disable yapf form the dedicated server console?
15:01:17  <TrueLight> so you can try to dogde it by saying it shouldn't, but it does
15:01:20  <glx> eQualizer: fixed in nightlies
15:01:31  <TrueLight> okay, define your 'layout change'
15:01:46  <KUDr_wrk> Brianetta: the same as changing any other option
15:01:47  <anboni> KUDr, would it be possible to invalidate the entire cache at certain moments (like when a client joins)?
15:02:19  * Brianetta goes to look at what the option might be
15:02:24  <KUDr_wrk> anboni: yes - it is done always when notification is received
15:02:34  <KUDr_wrk> and can be done on every save
15:02:38  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: you keep on saying: 'layour change', but what do you mean with it?
15:02:42  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:02:52  <anboni> so do that, then you can easily figure out if it's in the caching logic or elsewhere
15:02:58  <KUDr_wrk> so then client and server start with the empty cache
15:03:16  <KUDr_wrk> caching can be also easily switched off
15:03:22  <glx> TrueLight: layout change when you add/remove track or signal
15:03:30  <TrueLight> glx: I assumed he ment that, but that isn't the case here
15:03:39  <KUDr_wrk> i must look into code to tell you how
15:04:15  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
15:04:34  <Brianetta> stupid ssh tunnel
15:04:35  <Brianetta> 'road_use_yapf' is an unknown patch setting.
15:04:40  <KUDr_wrk> TrueLight: "layout change" is conversion of rail type, adding/deleting track, signal or depot or station and so on
15:04:43  *** TinoM| [] has joined #openttd
15:04:53  <Brianetta> I can't disable yapf
15:04:54  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: so your bug isn't there, it is somewhere else :)
15:04:56  <KUDr_wrk> anything what can influence the pathfinding result
15:05:17  <KUDr_wrk> TrueLight: no i thing it will be my bug
15:05:25  <KUDr_wrk> forgotten notification
15:05:32  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: but I do absolutely nothing
15:05:33  <KUDr_wrk> i am responsible for it
15:05:38  <TrueLight> so only signals can be a problem
15:05:58  <KUDr_wrk> signal states are taken from tiles always
15:06:00  *** Tino|Home [] has joined #openttd
15:06:07  <glx> client joining should be considered as layout change?
15:06:13  <KUDr_wrk> for signals that are taken into consideration
15:06:25  <anboni> TrueLight, i think the point is exactly that you're doing nothing.. that means the cache doesnt get invalidated, which means client and server end up with different caches
15:06:26  <KUDr_wrk> glx; no
15:06:35  <TrueLight> anboni: doubtful
15:07:04  <anboni> TrueLight, try it.. load up that game, put some a piece of connecting track and see if it still desyncs
15:07:07  <TrueLight> k, DINNER!
15:07:07  <TrueLight> bbl :)
15:07:13  <TrueLight> anboni: it does, don't worry :p
15:07:16  <KUDr_wrk> if there is another caching issue - i need to reproduce the case on two running instances here - client and server
15:07:21  <anboni> bummer :)
15:07:21  <KUDr_wrk> under debugger
15:07:47  <KUDr_wrk> do you have samegame that causes it?
15:08:12  *** TinoMM [] has joined #openttd
15:08:32  *** TinoM [] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
15:08:38  *** TinoMM is now known as TinoM
15:08:42  <Brianetta> KUDr: Are yapf settings saved in the savegame, or is t purely cfg?
15:09:34  <KUDr_wrk> Brianetta: all are saved in MP savegame (tranferred to the client) - at least i hoped so
15:09:51  <Brianetta> I'm talking about a local save
15:09:57  <Brianetta> I can't change the settings on the fly
15:09:57  <KUDr_wrk> not all
15:10:07  <Brianetta> so I need to halt the server and change cfg
15:10:21  <KUDr_wrk> some of them (that were added later) are not saved in local save
15:10:23  <Brianetta> I just want to check that this will work before I do it (:
15:10:35  <KUDr_wrk> you can use console
15:10:39  <Brianetta> How?
15:10:42  <Brianetta> I asked before
15:10:55  <KUDr_wrk> patches.yapf.<settingname> = value
15:11:01  <Brianetta> ah
15:11:04  <Brianetta> that's a newone on me
15:11:10  <KUDr_wrk> as usually with any other values
15:11:15  <KUDr_wrk> aha
15:11:21  <Brianetta> I had no idea
15:11:26  <KUDr_wrk> i don'tremember exact syntax
15:11:39  <KUDr_wrk> i can tell you it later from home
15:11:50  <Brianetta> Relaying command: patches.yapf.rail_use_yapf = false
15:11:50  <Brianetta> ERROR: command or variable not found
15:11:52  <Brianetta> It's not that (:
15:11:56  <KUDr_wrk> not i have few people arount - i can't start game and try it
15:12:03  <KUDr_wrk> around
15:12:13  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:12:31  <KUDr_wrk> hmm
15:12:44  <anboni> isn't the command "patch on" ?
15:12:55  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
15:12:56  <KUDr_wrk> try another patch value (not yapf related...)
15:13:14  <glx> patch <name> [<value>]
15:13:17  <Brianetta> I can change others
15:13:23  <Brianetta> patch blah = on/off
15:13:31  <Brianetta> yeah
15:14:14  <glx> patch yapf.rail_use_yapf works
15:14:27  <Brianetta> glx, thanks
15:14:29  <KUDr_wrk> ok, so you have the syntax now
15:14:43  <KUDr_wrk> i really don't remember that
15:14:57  <Brianetta> patch yapf.rail_use_yapf off
15:14:57  <Brianetta> patch yapf.rail_use_yapf
15:14:57  <Brianetta> Current value for 'yapf.rail_use_yapf' is: 'on' (min: 0, max: 1)
15:15:04  <Brianetta> ):
15:15:07  <Brianetta> It doesn't believe me
15:15:15  <KUDr_wrk> try 0
15:15:22  <KUDr_wrk> or it can be the old bug
15:15:26  <Brianetta> Why does it say it's 'on'?
15:15:33  <KUDr_wrk> that it shows wrong value
15:15:41  <KUDr_wrk> try false
15:15:44  <KUDr_wrk> or 0
15:15:49  <Brianetta> Current value for 'yapf.rail_use_yapf' is: 'off' (min: 0, max: 1)
15:15:49  <Brianetta> 0 worked (:
15:15:57  <KUDr_wrk> good
15:16:06  <KUDr_wrk> so try desync now
15:16:13  <glx> because the code says 1 -> on, 0 -> off, but you can't use on/off to set them :)
15:16:45  <KUDr_wrk> and please upload savegame and config somewhere - i can look at it today evening
15:16:46  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has joined #openttd
15:18:45  <Brianetta>
15:18:55  <KUDr_wrk> thanks
15:19:13  <hylje> describing filenames = win
15:19:57  <KUDr_wrk> yes - good descriptive filename on my local HDD
15:20:20  <Brianetta>
15:20:25  *** GoneWacko^ [] has joined #openttd
15:21:32  <KUDr_wrk> saved
15:21:43  <Zavior> My drives arent named after what they have
15:22:16  <Zavior> Radioasema, poliisi-asema, palo-asema, which would roughtly translate to Radiostation, policestation, firestation..
15:22:27  <Zavior> But they match nicely in finnish :P
15:22:48  <hylje> ha hah ha
15:23:05  *** TinoM| [] has quit [Connection timed out]
15:23:17  *** GoneWacko^ [] has quit [Client Quit]
15:23:24  *** RichK67_wrk [] has joined #openttd
15:24:10  *** Tino|Home [] has quit [Connection timed out]
15:25:32  <RichK67_wrk> ping devs: anyone had a chance to look at the TGP branch - i think its ready for approval-review (only 1 minor gui change to come)
15:27:00  *** GoneWacko^ [] has joined #openttd
15:30:04  *** GoneWacko [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:35:03  *** Hallo is now known as Hallo|2
15:35:38  <TrueLight> Okay, disabling YAPF indeed helped, so it is now confirmed to be a YAPF bug
15:35:56  <TrueLight> Brianetta: this also explains the strange behavoir I noticed
15:37:19  <RichK67_wrk> the desync is a yapf bug?
15:38:06  <TrueLight> this desync, yes
15:38:09  <TrueLight> ther eare some more desyncs
15:38:17  <TrueLight> but the one we had on Brianetta and the coop server, are yes
15:38:31  <Brianetta> RIght
15:38:37  <Brianetta> Time to modify my nightly
15:39:08  <RichK67_wrk> fandabydoobie :)
15:39:35  <peter1138> RichK67_wrk: then make the minor gui change? ;)
15:40:02  <Brianetta> arse, I crashed it
15:40:03  <Belugas> RichK67_wrk : and send a dev mail, some are here some are not
15:40:12  <Brianetta> never type ^D into your openttd console
15:40:25  <TrueLight> Brianetta: lol
15:41:54  <Brianetta> It's off.
15:42:20  <peter1138> that shouldn't really happen...
15:42:37  <RichK67_wrk> peter1138: i could live without it, but others might think different - i was going to add the start date to the New Game dialog, so you can choose the date without having to go fishing in the config panels... worth waiting for??
15:43:13  <TrueLight> peter1138 / KUDr: when I invalidate the cache of YAPF on SAVE, it works perfectly
15:43:18  <Brianetta> NPF is on the nightly
15:43:21  <Brianetta> NTP on the sandbox
15:43:28  <TrueLight> (nasty fix, but he, it works ;))
15:43:45  <TrueLight> Hmmz.. no, this will fail when a second client joins
15:43:45  <TrueLight> hehe
15:43:57  <TrueLight> but okay, the problem is YAPF, that is nice to know for sure :)
15:46:59  <TrueLight> k, tnx Brianetta and RichK67_wrk for the savegames and descriptions :)
15:47:07  <Brianetta> (:
15:47:47  <KUDr_wrk> TrueLight: thanks for investigation. I will try to fix it asap but i will keep your hotfix there - for the future it can help
15:47:57  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: I hope you can fix it ASAP
15:47:58  <TrueLight> hehe
15:47:58  <RichK67_wrk> np - be glad to get the game stable again... maybe that explains why i was stable last night (eventually) on the Brianetta server... i was the only player
15:48:01  <TrueLight> you beat me ;)
15:48:26  <TrueLight> but KUDr_wrk, I have a savegame here that desyncs every time you join < frame 5 after server start
15:48:32  <TrueLight> so if you can't reproduce it with Brianetta's savegame, let me know
15:48:38  *** Deathmaker [] has joined #openttd
15:48:47  <KUDr_wrk> TrueLight: please, gimme it
15:48:52  <Brianetta> lol
15:49:00  <TrueLight> also, my 'fix' only works for the first player, I can extend it to work for any player and commit it for now?
15:49:02  <KUDr_wrk> sooner = better
15:49:13  <KUDr_wrk> for desync
15:49:24  <Brianetta> It's a nightly
15:49:25  *** GoneWacko [] has joined #openttd
15:49:30  <Brianetta> Stability was never guaranteed (:
15:49:41  <KUDr_wrk> OK, but it is big mistake
15:49:47  <KUDr_wrk> it should not happen
15:50:01  *** Mucht|work [n=Mucht@] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
15:50:03  <KUDr_wrk> i am sorry for providing you all with such bug
15:50:09  <TrueLight> it happens only once in the X times
15:50:16  <TrueLight> but if you have N trains
15:50:16  <KUDr_wrk> heh
15:50:17  <KUDr_wrk> yes
15:50:19  <TrueLight> it happens X/N ;)
15:50:38  <TrueLight> <- openttd.cfg has no newgrf, very useful ;)
15:50:50  <TrueLight> ./openttd -D -g save/mytemp.sav > server.log  &
15:50:50  <TrueLight> ./openttd -snull -n > client1.log &
15:50:53  <KUDr_wrk> many thanks
15:51:02  <TrueLight> That was my only way to reproduce it with 8 out of the 10
15:51:27  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: but should I commit my 'fix', or should I just wait for your fix?
15:51:40  <TrueLight> hmmz
15:51:40  <KUDr_wrk> commit it please
15:51:42  <TrueLight> I rather wait for yours :p
15:51:51  <TrueLight> and if you can't fix it within 2 or 3 days, I will commit it :)
15:51:53  <KUDr_wrk> i will play without it and then merge
15:51:54  <TrueLight> it is too ugly :p
15:52:00  <KUDr_wrk> and commit my fix too
15:52:04  <TrueLight> +               YapfNotifyTrackLayoutChange(0, 0);
15:52:09  <TrueLight> in saveload.c :o
15:52:17  <KUDr_wrk> no, if you call notification it is correct
15:52:23  <KUDr_wrk> yes
15:52:24  <TrueLight> the place is wrong
15:52:26  <TrueLight> very very wrong :p
15:52:46  <KUDr_wrk> the same as any layout change - so then the cache is exactly in sync
15:52:58  <TrueLight> but it should also happen on client-join
15:53:03  <TrueLight> and that will be a bit tricky
15:53:11  <TrueLight> because the server sends it some ticks before the clients receive it :)
15:53:29  <TrueLight> so I guess it should be a new COMMAND
15:53:31  <KUDr_wrk> aha
15:53:38  <TrueLight> that the server sends out just after a client is joined
15:53:41  <KUDr_wrk> and we will need to tell it all clients
15:53:42  <TrueLight> but that might be very ugly too
15:54:00  <KUDr_wrk> yes, ne command as hotfix ;)
15:54:18  <TrueLight> so short, a clean solution is needed, and as it is a nightly, it doesn't really matter if it takes some days :)
15:54:22  <KUDr_wrk> but it can prevent similar mistakes in the future
15:54:23  <TrueLight> so I just leave it to you :)
15:54:28  <TrueLight> I am too ashamed of my patch :)
15:54:34  <KUDr_wrk> ok
15:54:43  <TrueLight> but let me know if you need any more info
15:54:44  <KUDr_wrk> i will try to do my best
15:54:50  <TrueLight> :) I am sure you will ;)
15:54:58  <TrueLight> I am glad we finally could trace a desync, doesn't happen that often
15:55:12  <KUDr_wrk> ok, this evening (starting in onehour from now) i will be looking at it
15:55:19  <RichK67_wrk> sorry for harping on... if im making a gui change to TGP, are there any other gui features you would like to see on the main dialog? currenlty has size, numtowns, numinds, climate, terrain type, water, roughness, use PNG heightmap, and (will have) start date.... anything else?
15:55:27  <TrueLight> KUDr_wrk: k, great :)
15:55:46  <Brianetta> RichK67_wrk: Snowline height?
15:55:53  <RichK67_wrk> good one
15:56:23  <Brianetta> Could set it to 0 for a very chilly game
15:56:36  <RichK67_wrk> lowest is 3, highest 13
15:56:51  <Brianetta> boo (:
15:57:02  <RichK67_wrk> so it can handle the graduated part snow areas
15:57:28  <Brianetta> I like the way that the part snow areas have fully snowy tracks
15:57:41  <Brianetta> snow really gathers to those rails (:
15:57:52  <RichK67_wrk> yup ;)
15:57:55  <TrueLight> Brianetta: I hate your smilies :(
15:58:26  <hylje> :<
15:58:33  <Brianetta> KUDr: One request, if you're working on yapf - pop in a setting for RVs to score a penalty for rail crossings.
15:58:40  <Brianetta> My smilies are not backwards
15:58:54  <KUDr_wrk> "pop in"?
15:58:59  <Brianetta> heh (:
15:59:00  <TrueLight> I am used to turn my head left wards, a positive rotation direction
15:59:07  <Brianetta> Well, it was in NPF already
15:59:09  <TrueLight> yours are right, a negative rotation direction
15:59:19  <Brianetta> but in YAPF it appears to apply to trains instead of RVs
15:59:29  <Brianetta> Mine are upside down
15:59:34  <Brianetta> reflected
15:59:35  <Brianetta> d:
15:59:35  *** XeryusTC [] has joined #openttd
15:59:43  <Brianetta> q:
15:59:46  <KUDr_wrk> Brianetta: i shouldnt do any changes in savegame but i can look at it after that bug
15:59:49  <TrueLight> And it makes me think every time you are said, while you are smiling ;)
15:59:56  <Brianetta> KUDr: Wuv you!]
16:00:02  <Brianetta> (-:
16:00:04  <Brianetta> Mor explicit
16:00:08  <TrueLight> yeah :p
16:00:27  <Brianetta> )-':
16:00:51  <Brianetta> (-:þ
16:00:51  *** GoneWacko^ [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:01:05  <TrueLight> 3/4?
16:01:22  <Brianetta> That's supposed to be the letter thorn
16:01:54  <tokai|ni> using 180° rotated smileys is gay (not, that this is something bad though)  :)
16:02:10  <Brianetta> What codepage are you using?
16:02:17  <Brianetta> upside down
16:02:20  <Brianetta> not rotated
16:02:29  <Brianetta> flipped
16:02:38  <TrueLight> twisted!
16:02:40  <tokai|ni> Brianetta: its the 'otter' direction. ;)
16:02:47  * Brianetta groans
16:03:17  <Brianetta> Ÿ is 3/4
16:03:21  <Brianetta> þ is thorn
16:03:31  <TrueLight> [18:03:17] <Brianetta> Ÿ is 3/4
16:03:31  <TrueLight> [18:03:20] <Brianetta> þ is thorn
16:03:32  <TrueLight> lol
16:03:33  <Brianetta> unless you're using some wacky weird set
16:03:44  <Brianetta> TrueLight: You pasted back what I said...
16:03:50  <TrueLight> haha
16:03:53  <TrueLight> I did not!
16:03:53  <tokai|ni> Brianetta: iso-latin1 here
16:03:53  <Brianetta> Are you using Unicode?
16:04:00  <TrueLight> One is an A with a ^ on it
16:04:03  <TrueLight> the other with a ~ on it
16:04:06  <TrueLight> both ending with a 3/4 mark
16:04:11  <Brianetta> Â
16:04:16  <tokai|ni> Brianetta: and I see some A with stuff above (not Ä) and 3/4 sign
16:04:16  <Brianetta> = A with ^
16:04:25  <glx> Â ã
16:04:29  <TrueLight> Brianetta: no, that is a A with a ~ on it, and a weird char behind it
16:04:41  <Brianetta> You all need to get into the 21st century
16:04:43  <peter1138> EUR
16:04:47  <Brianetta> Stopusing ASCII with a variable upper 127
16:04:50  <TrueLight> I like my client just fine :)
16:04:54  <tokai|ni> using utf on irc is gay too :)
16:04:56  * tokai|ni runs
16:04:59  <Brianetta> Your client is, no doubt, fine
16:05:05  <Brianetta> Just change your character set to UTF
16:05:10  <peter1138> tokai|ni: maybe your OS doesn't support it? ;p
16:05:18  <glx> TrueLight: which client?
16:05:29  <TrueLight> kvirc
16:05:32  <TrueLight> it uses system default
16:05:34  <tokai|ni> peter1138: i think xchat on osx does it when i configure it for that ;)
16:05:37  <glx> works well with utf
16:05:41  <Brianetta> The alternative, if you want you characters to be the same everywhere, is never to use an ASCII character with a value greater than 127
16:06:04  <TrueLight> Brianetta: I don't :)
16:06:13  <TrueLight> glx: it has UTF support yes, but I don't use it :p
16:06:15  <TrueLight> I hate UTF
16:06:20  <peter1138> heh
16:06:31  <Brianetta> I hate 64 bit machine code
16:06:35  <Brianetta> It's still the future
16:06:37  <TrueLight> Brianetta: I don't :)
16:06:44  <peter1138> heh, /branches/utf8 :D
16:06:45  <TrueLight> nah, ASCII won't die :)
16:06:53  <Brianetta> It had better
16:07:05  <peter1138> Brianetta: too many americans :(
16:07:06  <TrueLight> I really don't see why I want to receive weird chars :p
16:07:12  <TrueLight> I like normal chars :)
16:07:19  <Brianetta> Teh smilies!!!!111!!11one
16:07:27  <tokai|ni> btw, who applies patches and closes bug reports theses days on :)
16:07:38  <Brianetta> {[°o°]}
16:07:47  <Brianetta> Who wouldn't want to see those eyes?
16:08:00  <Brianetta> They're degree symbols, in case your computer is irretrievably stone-aged
16:08:20  <TrueLight> They are degree symbols yes, with a A With a ^ on it before it
16:08:21  <TrueLight> :p
16:08:30  <TrueLight> {[°o°]}
16:08:35  <TrueLight> That is what I would do :p
16:08:40  <RichK67_wrk> ok... anyone else... anything other than snowline height?? (or shall we postpone any extras to v2)???
16:08:43  <peter1138> so, yeah, the utf8 openttd branch supports cyrillic 'n stuff
16:08:45  <Brianetta> I saw it, but you lost his mouth
16:08:55  <glx> TrueLight: black box for me :)
16:08:58  <peter1138> snowline height, but only where the snowline exists
16:09:00  <TrueLight> which mouth? :p
16:09:13  <Brianetta> TrueLight: IRC underline is an ASCII standard too
16:09:26  <TrueLight> underline?
16:09:27  <TrueLight> what is that?
16:09:31  <RichK67_wrk> peter: is graying out ok??
16:09:36  <Brianetta> Control-U character
16:09:45  <peter1138> RichK67_wrk: of course, and prefed
16:09:45  <TrueLight> I don't have underline key
16:09:46  <peter1138> err
16:09:48  <peter1138> prefered
16:09:52  <TrueLight> AND WHERE IS MY ANY KEY?
16:09:52  <RichK67_wrk> ok
16:09:56  <glx> test
16:10:14  <tokai|ni> TrueLight: usually "shift and -"  (on de and us kbd at least)
16:10:28  <TrueLight> LOL!
16:10:32  <Brianetta> It's cool for practical jokes, like cclick here to see TrueLight naked, etc
16:10:35  <RichK67_wrk> underscore....
16:10:36  <glx> heh kvirc knows ctrl-U and ctrl-B
16:10:39  <TrueLight> tokai|ni: is there my any key?
16:10:57  <tokai|ni> TrueLight: any keys only exist on modded kbds :)
16:10:59  <TrueLight> glx: of course it does, but it is much more fun to act like you are stupid :)
16:11:11  <tokai|ni> TrueLight: more interesting are "help" keys :)
16:11:23  <tokai|ni> or butterfly magic keys :P
16:11:25  <glx> TrueLight: I just discovered the :P
16:11:28  <Brianetta> tokai: Like backspace? (:
16:11:47  <glx> s/the/that
16:12:19  <TrueLight> pompiedom
16:12:26  <TrueLight> I should start an AJAX implementation in some software
16:12:28  <TrueLight> hmmz
16:12:39  <TrueLight> my feet stink
16:12:39  <TrueLight> hehe
16:12:49  <glx> too hot weather :)
16:12:53  <TrueLight> yup
16:14:12  <TrueLight> k,c rashing my kernel, back in a flash
16:14:23  <tokai|ni> <- check the key left of DEL :) i wonder why no pc keyboard producer ever copied that.
16:14:54  <TrueLight> I hope you mean RIGHT of the DEL key
16:15:01  <tokai|ni> right
16:15:15  <tokai|ni> all this smiley flipping confused my sense of direction, sorry
16:15:20  <Brianetta> pffff
16:15:24  <Brianetta>
16:15:30  <Brianetta> Check that old LISP keyboard out
16:16:15  <Brianetta> No less than seven modifier keys
16:16:16  <tokai|ni> looks a bit weird from todays standard, but the help key is a big + of course :)
16:16:17  <RichK67_wrk> ZX-81 membrane :)
16:16:43  <Brianetta> It has an alt-lock
16:16:46  <Brianetta> alt-lock!
16:16:47  *** GoneWacko^ [] has joined #openttd
16:16:48  <Brianetta> How cool?
16:17:18  <Brianetta> Keys didn't repeat unless you were holding down the repeat key
16:17:28  <glx> I didn't like ZX-81 keyboard
16:17:41  *** YoG [] has joined #openttd
16:18:02  <Brianetta> Shift+Greek+L got you a capital Lambda
16:18:46  <RichK67_wrk> ok everyone... last call for any gui proposals for new game screen in TGP.... going once....
16:19:03  <Brianetta> Number of trees?
16:19:20  <Brianetta> Size of cities?
16:19:38  <Brianetta> Chop map into two islands (yes|no) ?
16:19:46  *** YoG [] has left #openttd []
16:19:48  <RichK67_wrk> not a current function.... its just gui, not behind scenes features... ive lots of those for v2 (eg. no unmovables, etc)
16:20:20  <Brianetta> Well, *is* there anything else that can be configured?
16:21:19  <RichK67_wrk> cant remember ... anyone got the game infront of them??
16:22:22  *** GoneWacko^ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:22:45  *** GoneWacko^ [] has joined #openttd
16:23:54  <anboni> max distance for oil refineries?
16:26:01  <RichK67_wrk> thats perhaps not an upfront kind of setting... it will be in the "advanced" panel that i will introduce for v2
16:26:24  <anboni> fair enough
16:26:31  <RichK67_wrk> so far then: start date, snow line
16:27:55  *** sw4y [] has joined #openttd
16:28:07  <Belugas> there is a newgrf, unexploited, feature for snowline height.  I wonder how it can be achieved...
16:28:38  <Belugas> Hooo... Syd Barret is dead
16:29:24  <Belugas> bye bye Syd
16:29:33  *** GoneWacko [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:30:32  *** GoneWacko^ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:30:42  <RichK67_wrk> there is always a newgrf something or other... :P
16:31:27  <RichK67_wrk> im just waiting for someone to say "why havent you implemented newgrf terrain generators yet?".... grrrrr ;)
16:32:27  <Belugas> hehehe :)  not THAT devious.  Maybe it can be done with Callbacks ;)
16:32:52  <RichK67_wrk> belugas: i will need to get started on newgrf airports soon; is there any useful info on how OTTD handles them? (i know absolutely nothing about how...)
16:33:03  *** GoneWacko [] has joined #openttd
16:33:17  <RichK67_wrk> ah... you read my little "callbacks are a bad thing"(tm) rant then ;)
16:33:49  <Belugas> 1st, gather all infos on airports into a writable struct array
16:33:52  <RichK67_wrk> frankly, it will kill the whole point of newgrf airports containing the FTA stone dead
16:34:05  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #OpenTTD
16:34:22  <Belugas> callbacks are not int the program code, by the way.
16:34:32  <Belugas> they are linked to the newgrf file
16:34:46  <Belugas> so, he was pretty right about it.
16:35:08  <Wolf01> hi all
16:35:13  <Belugas> although, to be honest, i don't reaay know how callbacks really work
16:35:19  <Belugas> hello Wolf01
16:36:18  <Belugas> peter1138 and mart3p are the resources on callbacks, AFAIK
16:38:45  <RichK67_wrk> in this context, the callback is just moving the movement data away from where it needs to be, to a whole host of seperate routines, which will have to be customised by data... an unnecessary abstraction IMO
16:40:11  <peter1138> not really to separate routines, just a callback result
16:40:25  <peter1138> but it's probably not necessary
16:41:07  <RichK67_wrk> i find the way that the newgrf pages are written is really really hard to follow...
16:41:11  <Wolf01> sorry girls, but i must link this XD
16:42:29  *** GoneWacko^ [] has joined #openttd
16:42:39  <GoneWacko^> *heh*, fucking around with the router
16:42:45  * GoneWacko^ gives up for now
16:45:25  <Brianetta> lol, Wolf01
16:45:25  *** GoneWacko^ [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:46:14  <Wolf01> we at work were hypnotized for about 10 minutes XD
16:46:25  <peter1138> o_O
16:46:25  <Brianetta> Who animated that?
16:46:28  <peter1138> or rather
16:46:29  <peter1138> X_X
16:46:43  <Wolf01> @_@
16:46:55  <Brianetta> Ø_ø
16:47:11  <Wolf01> Brianetta, i don't know, maybe there is something into the properties of the file
16:47:31  <peter1138> xolod?
16:47:35  * Brianetta stares and stares
16:48:35  <Belugas> bong bong bong bong
16:49:53  <Brianetta>
16:50:08  <Belugas> Lovely... song
16:50:21  <Brianetta> That hynotits' soundtrack is the solo part of the one on the right
16:50:23  <Brianetta> er, left
16:50:28  <Brianetta> It's Loituma
16:50:40  <Brianetta> The ginger one sings actual, real words
16:50:41  *** Sedated_ is now known as Sedated
16:50:53  <Brianetta> the dark haired woman's lines are just nonsense
16:51:31  <Sacro> what is it with that song...
16:51:47  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
16:51:48  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:51:57  * Sacro is addicted to it
16:52:00  <Brianetta> It mad ethe top of the Finnish charts for weeks
16:52:25  *** GoneWacko [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:52:34  <Brianetta> I find the lead singer oddly attractive
16:52:35  *** angerman_ [] has joined #openttd
16:53:16  <Brianetta> haha!  The original (non-live):
16:54:13  <Brianetta> rather truncated, though
16:54:58  <Sacro>
16:54:59  <RichK67_wrk> brianetta - is your game back and stable(ish)
16:54:59  <Sacro> heh
16:55:07  <hylje> leekspin!
16:55:08  <Brianetta> RichK67_wrk: Shoul dbe
16:55:12  <Brianetta> It's on NPF
16:55:18  <RichK67_wrk> excellent... i may pop in later
16:55:43  <Brianetta> <-- REMIX!!
16:55:55  <Sacro> NPF?
16:56:09  <Brianetta> Sacro: It's a pathfinder
16:56:12  * Sacro likes the mention of Ass
16:56:21  <glx> Sacro: yapf cause desyncs
16:57:11  <Brianetta> It's even better than the original (:
16:57:20  <Brianetta> heh, asses!
16:57:31  <Brianetta> These guys are nuts
16:57:51  <peter1138> google video doesn't work for me :(
16:58:05  <Brianetta> Camp beyond eords to describe
16:58:17  <Brianetta> peter1138: You need a recent-ish flash
17:00:33  <vrak> Brianetta: that, uh, whatever you want to call it is... -.-
17:06:54  <Wolf01> RichK67_wrk, have you compiled a new version (maybe with the daylength patch) ?
17:07:20  <Sacro> hmm
17:07:22  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
17:07:31  <peter1138> dry cereal--
17:07:35  *** angerman [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:07:53  <glx> Wolf01: if you mean the he doesn't compile them
17:08:08  <Wolf01> no, i mean the miniIN
17:08:54  <glx> but he doesn't compile the miniIN files available on
17:09:41  <Wolf01> no sorry, i meant if he uploaded a new version on the svn
17:10:22  <glx> no miniIN commit in svn since 7/7
17:13:35  <RichK67_wrk> wolf01: ive said in the forum several times, i am hellish busy, and cannot do any MiniIN updates this week, and probably not until this time next week... if you have an urgent bugfix that must go in, pls ask a nice dev like glx to test & commit it for you ;)
17:14:12  <glx> RichK67_wrk: sorry I don't know well miniIN :)
17:14:37  *** Red956 is now known as Red
17:15:24  <Sacro> wtf is using python...
17:15:37  <Wolf01> is not so important... if you dont use daylenght more than 2x
17:15:51  <Sacro> ahh, gdesklets
17:16:05  <hylje> python
17:16:06  <hylje> ftw
17:16:22  *** Red [] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
17:17:06  *** Red885 [] has joined #openttd
17:17:41  <Wolf01> i asked for it because when i'm coding i have to revert every time to make a clean patch and merge the bugfix again
17:20:08  <Sacro> Wolf01: tar it, and then untar
17:20:42  <Wolf01> i take less time to revert and merge
17:22:15  *** TrueLight is now known as TL|Away
17:22:38  <RichK67_wrk> ok folks... gotta go
17:23:42  *** RichK67_wrk [] has quit []
17:25:48  <Belugas> Wolf01, i don't know if that would help you, but i have 5 to 7 different repos, with only two that are clean for commits
17:26:12  <Belugas> so, it is a matter of copying/applying patches from one repo to the other
17:26:39  <Belugas> that's how I work.  There may be (surely) some other way of doings...
17:26:55  *** Angst_ [] has joined #openttd
17:27:09  <Wolf01> i have 2 repositories too, but them take space...
17:31:18  *** Angst_ [] has quit [Client Quit]
17:31:18  *** Angst [] has joined #openttd
17:35:43  *** Brianetta [] has quit ["Tschüß"]
17:45:58  <CIA-3> miham * r5482 /trunk/lang/dutch.txt:
17:45:58  <CIA-3> WebTranslator2 update to 2006-07-11 19:45:41
17:45:58  <CIA-3> dutch - 1 fixed by webfreakz (1)
17:46:29  <Wolf01> there is an unicode+fixed space font to use in mIRC?
17:47:14  <MiHaMiX> do anyone having a spare STK6712AMK4 step-motor controller chip for sale?
17:47:32  <MiHaMiX> or know a place where I can get it
17:47:32  <peter1138> Wolf01: uh, any font'll do?
17:47:38  <peter1138> ebay? heh
17:48:23  <MiHaMiX> peter1138: hmm, good point, but I need a brand new one.. but I'll give it a try
17:49:09  <MiHaMiX> 0 items found for
17:49:09  <MiHaMiX> STK6712AMK4 in
17:49:12  <MiHaMiX> Consumer Electronics :-(
17:49:56  <MiHaMiX> bbl, supper
17:50:21  *** pwr [n=pwr@] has joined #openttd
17:51:34  *** RichK67 [n=RichK67@] has joined #openttd
17:52:05  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:52:38  <Sacro> hmm, does OOo not do access databases
17:55:53  *** Osai [] has quit []
17:55:54  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has joined #openttd
18:03:21  *** exe_ [] has joined #openttd
18:05:25  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
18:12:24  *** pwr [n=pwr@] has quit ["Client exiting"]
18:14:25  *** tokai|3 [] has joined #openttd
18:15:08  *** BJH [] has joined #openttd
18:25:25  *** tokai [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:25:31  *** tokai|ni [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:31:06  *** ChrisM87 [] has joined #openttd
18:31:16  <ChrisM87> My OTTD sound is stil bugged :(
18:31:29  <ChrisM87> and Gecko is not running
18:31:37  <ChrisM87>  /dev/dsp is completly free
18:31:45  <ChrisM87> and still it sounds ugly and extremly odd
18:32:26  <ChrisM87> Anyone got an idea what I can do?
18:32:46  <ChrisM87> I use Gentoo and sound is onboard AC97 on nForce 4 (very common onboard chip)
18:33:05  <ChrisM87> and: it worked on this computer just fine some time ago but now it doesn't
18:33:11  <ChrisM87> well, sometimes it works correctly
18:33:19  <ChrisM87> but if i quit and restart ottd again, the sound is bugged again
18:34:38  <Bjarni> MiHaMiX:
18:34:47  <Bjarni> it's a really tricky one to find
18:35:01  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: I already found that page, that was the 2nd hit on google
18:35:14  <Sacro> ChrisM87: i had similar sound problems, but having reinstalled Linux its now fine
18:35:14  <Bjarni> all of my regular places to search for components failed on this one :(
18:35:21  <hylje> :D
18:35:44  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: but it doesn't mention any _concrete_ item, if just offers some bidding possibility, isn't it?
18:35:50  * Sacro considers unscrewing a few household devices to look for one
18:36:16  <MiHaMiX> Sacro: lol ;)
18:36:21  <Bjarni> MiHaMiX: well, you can always try to see if they can get it for you. Worst case is that they can't
18:36:39  <Bjarni> MiHaMiX: have you considered trying to use a different one or even building your own one?
18:36:44  <MiHaMiX> Sacro: start with the RJS Qualabar barcode printer :D
18:37:02  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: we need it to fix a broken barcode printer
18:37:12  <Bjarni> ahh
18:37:22  <Bjarni> hmm
18:37:25  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: it's a relatively cheap part of a quite expensive-yet-useless barcode printer
18:37:25  <Bjarni> tricky
18:37:28  <Belugas> I hate barcode printers
18:37:30  <Belugas> huge
18:37:33  <Belugas> noisy
18:37:35  <Belugas> expensinve
18:37:37  <Sacro> MiHaMiX: hmm...i dont think i have one
18:37:42  <Belugas> hard to interface
18:37:58  <MiHaMiX> Belugas: they are huge, noisy, but.. they are usefull if you have to identify 2million different book :)
18:38:22  <Bjarni> MiHaMiX: contact that link I posted and you can also try to contact the chip manufacture directly
18:38:23  <Belugas> true :)
18:38:28  <MiHaMiX> Sacro: that's what I feared :(
18:38:44  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: this chip is no longer manufactured, AFAIK.
18:39:09  <Sacro> MiHaMiX: me too :(
18:39:14  <Bjarni> ok, that could be a problem
18:39:15  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: it has been discontinued 2 years ago
18:39:31  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: I'm relying on the stock items, I think
18:39:49  <Bjarni> <-- use that to find another one, that can do the same job (or build your own, that uses these specs)
18:40:09  <Bjarni> that is, if you fail to find one in stocks somewhere
18:40:44  <Bjarni> oops, that link needs a 95 USD subscription :(
18:41:25  <Bjarni> <-- this one needs a free subscription... much better :)
18:42:26  <ChrisM87> @Sacro: I just reinstalled Gentoo one week ago (not because of OTTD) but the problem persists. :(
18:44:00  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: you mean this?
18:45:18  <Bjarni> yeah
18:45:58  <Bjarni> it appears that it got a max voltage of 52 V. Say a modern chip can do the same, but can survive say 70 V, then it can do the same job
18:46:30  <Sacro> ChrisM87: hmm, what sound deamons do you have?
18:46:40  <ChrisM87> Sacro: none
18:46:41  <ChrisM87> direct alsa
18:46:55  <ChrisM87> OSS emulation is enabled in the kernel
18:47:20  <Bjarni> logically when it can survive higher voltage, then it got to have a new number. The need for a controller is still there, so there is a fair chance that you can find a compatible chip somewhere
18:47:22  <ChrisM87> Sound generally works fine, with amaroK, Kaffeine, Flash player etc.
18:47:55  <scia> ChrisM87: have you enabled any newgrfs?
18:48:03  <Bjarni> think of it kind of like putting a 2 GHz CPU on a motherboard that can only handle 1,5 GHz and then you downclock the CPU to make it work together
18:48:07  <Bjarni> the idea is the same
18:48:15  <ChrisM87> scia: Nope, just a normal plain installation
18:48:18  <ChrisM87> without anything
18:48:31  <scia> donno then
18:48:40  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: hmm..
18:48:46  <scia> I once had weird sounds with certain newgrfs installed
18:48:58  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: do you know which controller would be compatible?
18:51:26  *** Sacro [n=ben@adsl-83-100-181-159.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:52:09  <kbrooks> what is the cheapest transport mdium?
18:52:25  <Wolf01> train
18:52:35  <kbrooks> eh?
18:52:38  <kbrooks> why? ...
18:53:32  <Wolf01> trains are a perfect balance between runnig cost, speed and total cargo
18:53:49  <Wolf01> if you know how to use them
18:55:34  *** baske [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:56:38  <kbrooks> that;'s funny
18:56:48  <kbrooks> there are 3 things near each other
18:57:06  <kbrooks> farm, factory, and a city
19:00:37  <Bjarni> <MiHaMiX>	Bjarni: do you know which controller would be compatible? <-- not really :(
19:01:04  <Bjarni> the only thing I can do is to read two datasheets and see if they are somewhat compatible
19:02:26  <peter1138> ask the manufacturer
19:02:54  <Bjarni> yeah
19:03:16  <Bjarni> odds are that they are producing a new chip that is somewhat similar
19:05:18  <MiHaMiX> Bjarni: ok, thanks, I'll try to contact them
19:06:34  <CIA-3> KUDr * r5483 /trunk/vehicle.c:
19:06:34  <CIA-3> -Fix: [YAPF] desync - for MP games invalidate YAPF cache on every tick to keep
19:06:34  <CIA-3> it exactly the same on server and clients (it doesn't fix the real source of the
19:06:34  <CIA-3> problem, but should solve it). Thanks TrueLight for hunting this bug.
19:07:03  <peter1138> every tick?
19:07:08  <KUDr> yes
19:07:13  <peter1138> hmm, any point in a cache? :p
19:07:21  <KUDr> performance impact is still minimal
19:07:33  <KUDr> point?
19:07:48  <peter1138> if you're flushing a cache, why use a cache?
19:07:58  <Bjarni> you cache stuff, and then you flush the cache before you use it, right?
19:08:10  <KUDr> it still has avg CHR > 80%
19:08:13  * peter1138 flushes Bjarni
19:08:18  <KUDr> so still helps a lot
19:08:19  <RichK67> if this bugfix were permanent, then no.... but as its a temporary, its worth retaining while the real solution is found... yeah?
19:08:29  <Bjarni> peter1138: hey, I'm not John
19:08:34  <peter1138> RichK67: well, yes
19:09:09  <KUDr> Bjarni: not really - still used a lot
19:09:41  <KUDr> it is hotfix for now - i can't repro it from savegames provided
19:10:26  <Bjarni> I can see the problem
19:10:37  <KUDr> really?
19:10:40  <hylje> rl
19:10:41  <hylje> y
19:10:51  <Bjarni> you need some event trigger to make all computers make the same cache at the same time
19:10:57  <Bjarni> and how to do that...
19:11:04  <Bjarni> I have absolutely no idea :(
19:11:17  <KUDr> Bjarni: normally they don't need to be the same
19:11:33  <KUDr> but the information gathered from it must be valid
19:11:34  <Bjarni> but then you risk that a train will not behave the same on all computers
19:11:45  <Bjarni> hence, the desyncs
19:11:57  <KUDr> why?
19:12:13  <KUDr> they use the same map
19:12:23  <KUDr> and cache must reflect the map state
19:12:34  <Bjarni> oh wait, you cache track layout, not train positions
19:12:37  <Bjarni> nevermind :)
19:12:49  <KUDr> if not, then it is problem of validity of the cache - forgotten notification or so
19:13:15  <KUDr> yes
19:13:22  <KUDr> tack layout
19:13:25  <KUDr> track
19:13:44  <KUDr> and cost of longer segments
19:14:14  <KUDr> so if the same segment is evaluated again, the cached cost can be reused
19:14:33  *** _bitwise [n=bitwise@] has quit ["leaving"]
19:14:46  <KUDr> this doesn't require to keep the caches in sync
19:14:57  <KUDr> but keeping it valid is a must
19:15:14  <KUDr> and here it looks that some info in it was invalid
19:15:26  <KUDr> but after restarting server it is gone
19:15:30  <KUDr> for some time
19:15:43  <KUDr> and here i dont understand it
19:15:52  <KUDr> why
19:16:34  <KUDr> so if i try to use TL's savegame it is like restarted server and then it works fine
19:18:05  <RichK67> KUDr  - in the brianetta game, i had a really long stretch of track that ended in an open end... is that a possible problem?
19:18:40  <KUDr> long or short, should be the same
19:18:45  <KUDr> this i had many times
19:18:56  <KUDr> and never desynced
19:19:00  <RichK67> ok
19:19:02  <KUDr> i really dunno
19:19:30  <KUDr> i need some case where i can start new instance of game, load game or do some steps and repro it
19:19:53  <KUDr> otherwise i don't know where to start
19:20:12  <KUDr> i should think more about YAPF diagnostics
19:22:32  *** Artea [] has left #openttd []
19:22:40  *** Artea_ [] has joined #openttd
19:22:46  <Artea_> my server rules
19:22:48  <Artea_> :D
19:22:58  <Artea_> 18 hours up
19:22:59  <Artea_> :D
19:24:54  *** zemei [] has quit ["Download Gaim:"]
19:27:43  <RichK67> lol - i worked on a project for Digital - requirement was a server uptime of 99.8% (ie. allowing 3hours downtime per year).... actual performance was 1.5hours downtime in 7years :)
19:28:06  <RichK67> triple redundant :)
19:28:55  *** Morlark [] has joined #openttd
19:29:20  <hylje> ive around 420d uptimes
19:29:48  <RichK67> excellent :)    and now i use Micro-flakey-soft ;)
19:31:47  <peter1138> 99.8 allows about a day...
19:32:38  *** DJ_Mirage [] has quit ["Probably doing something else"]
19:33:21  <RichK67> 0.73
19:33:33  <XeryusTC> 17.52 hours
19:33:39  <vrak> -.-
19:34:15  <XeryusTC> which is 17 hours 31 minutes and 12 seconds :P
19:34:25  <RichK67> it was 3 hours allowed, so its whatever that percentage - im trying to remember the spec from 11years ago :)
19:34:52  <XeryusTC> :)
19:36:09  <RichK67> 99.97%
19:37:19  <RichK67> vax cluster using triple redundant everything; power, hot swap disks, processors (you could kill one processor - yank the board - and it wouldnt blink)... it was hot!
19:38:06  <RichK67> it was for a financial organisation for whom seconds were worth millions...
19:38:13  <hylje> :o
19:38:24  <hylje> hotswap procs
19:38:25  <hylje> ftw
19:38:30  <XeryusTC> lol
19:39:10  <RichK67> it ran same code on all 3 at the same time... and then arbitrated result... if one died, the arbitrator didnt flinch... even two was ok
19:39:35  <RichK67> sync was hardwired ;)
19:40:00  <Bjarni> thanks RichK67. You just reminded me of this one:
19:40:27  <XeryusTC> RichK67: someone ever got engineerd? :P
19:40:44  <RichK67> bjarni: lol
19:40:48  <XeryusTC> hehe
19:40:56  <XeryusTC> Operating System: [Win2K Professional 5.0 Service Pack 4 (Build #2195)] € Uptime: [4d 23h 29m 17s] € Record Uptime: [1w 4d 5h 4m 38s set on Wed Jul 05 22:12:40 2006]
19:41:08  <XeryusTC> got 3 weeks on a previous install once...
19:41:20  <XeryusTC> well, almost
19:42:33  <hylje> puny
19:42:41  <RichK67> my old win95 machine was damned stable... but only if you didnt do anything except disk access... fine for a disk server :)
19:43:08  <hylje> stability is relative
19:43:34  <Bjarni> I could get pretty good uptimes on my computer. It never crashes.... only issue is that I usually turn it off when I'm not using it
19:43:37  *** zemei [] has joined #openttd
19:43:37  <RichK67> and my relatives arent ;)
19:43:44  <Bjarni> that kind of kills the uptime, but it saves on the power bill
19:44:21  <Bjarni> RichK67: well, I guess you fit right in your family then
19:44:33  <RichK67> :P ;) LOL
19:45:04  *** Mucht|zZz [] has quit ["I'll be back!"]
19:46:10  <Zavior> Bjarni, it might never crash because you do turn it off sometimes :D
19:46:54  <Bjarni> Zavior: ok, you go ahead and crash OSX
19:46:59  <Bjarni> good luck
19:47:42  <Bjarni> the only ways I know is to remove all free space to kill swap space or to install bad kernels
19:47:51  <Bjarni> otherwise pretty stable
19:48:56  <Bjarni> <-- hahaha
19:49:15  <Bjarni> luckily it's not an uptime counted in weeks
19:49:37  <XeryusTC> Bjarni needs to be banned
19:50:03  <XeryusTC> :P
19:50:14  <Bjarni> why?
19:51:33  *** IneQuation [] has quit ["Poof!"]
19:51:36  <Bjarni> if you are referring to what the topic once said, then peter wrote it and I outrank peter, so it would not apply to me
19:52:02  <RichK67> muhahahaha
19:52:15  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
19:52:50  <XeryusTC> Bjarni: basicly, yes :P
19:52:52  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
20:00:32  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
20:01:36  *** scia [] has quit [Client Quit]
20:02:00  <Bjarni> oh, that reminds me of a law I once read on Town council members can't get a speed ticket while the town council is in session
20:04:01  <XeryusTC> Bjarni: it sounds pretty usefull
20:04:33  <XeryusTC> although people should learn to arrive in time
20:08:05  *** angerman_ [] has quit []
20:10:40  *** Hallo|2 [] has quit []
20:13:58  *** Jenkz [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:15:00  <TL|Away> KUDr: nice patch, but one comment:
20:15:16  <KUDr> it is hotfix only
20:15:19  <TL|Away> the idea of OpenTTD is that if you load a savegame
20:15:27  <TL|Away> it does exactly the same as when you continue playing
20:15:36  <TL|Away> this 'bug' means it is possible that it does not
20:15:37  <KUDr> it should
20:15:47  <TL|Away> clearly not, else clients wouldn't pick an other route ;)
20:15:47  <KUDr> yes
20:15:51  <KUDr> true
20:15:56  <KUDr> so i must hunt it
20:15:59  <TL|Away> So please keep looking for the real problem :)
20:16:03  <KUDr> but the question is how
20:16:07  <TL|Away> That was my point yes ;) hehe :p
20:16:15  <TL|Away> I don't know YAPF
20:16:22  <TL|Away> and I don't like C++, so I will never know it :)
20:16:24  <KUDr> it is related to the server state
20:16:27  <TL|Away> so that you have to ask yourself ;)
20:16:29  <KUDr> after long time
20:16:38  <KUDr> like when there is something different
20:16:43  <KUDr> but yapf is stateless
20:16:48  <TL|Away> Make sure that when ever a path is calculated, both return the same
20:17:12  <KUDr> yes it was so
20:17:18  <TL|Away> it looks like it only happens when a train is on a point it can still go both ways, but the server already made up his mind
20:17:19  <KUDr> i checked it many times
20:17:32  <KUDr> but now it looks that something is different
20:17:38  <KUDr> it can be signals states
20:17:43  <KUDr> or train positions
20:17:56  <TL|Away> What ever it is, the cache isn't correct at all times :)
20:17:58  <KUDr> or anything what influences pathfinding
20:18:02  <TL|Away> (relative between server and client)
20:18:10  <KUDr> yes, true
20:18:18  <KUDr> so i must hunt it in cache
20:18:26  <TL|Away> so, the question is what can make the cache give different values
20:18:39  <TL|Away> what you called the notify stuff
20:18:42  <KUDr> invalid value in the cache
20:18:51  <KUDr> 1) corrupted cached data
20:19:06  <KUDr> 2) forgotten change notification
20:19:14  <KUDr> it is all probably
20:19:24  <TL|Away> I can rule out 2) btw, I joined a client right after a server (the server had 4 more frames)
20:19:34  <hylje> :o
20:19:42  <TL|Away> or in that 4 frames it should have happened
20:19:43  <KUDr> good
20:19:53  <TL|Away> but that would be a weird coinsidends
20:19:58  <TL|Away> (how ever you write that last word :p)
20:20:01  <KUDr> so it looks that cached info is corrupted after the time
20:20:12  <TL|Away> hmmz, dunno
20:20:17  <TL|Away> as I said, 4 frames more on server
20:20:19  <KUDr> but one experience that doesnt fit into tha
20:20:21  <TL|Away> hard to corrupt :)
20:20:22  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
20:20:32  <TL|Away> But okay, is it possible that it is this:
20:20:41  <KUDr> that if you restart server it helps for a while
20:20:44  <TL|Away> when a train is at 2, 2 of a tile (so of the 16x16 pixels)
20:21:04  <TL|Away> it can still pick route a and route b (if the tile goes multiple ways)
20:21:13  <TL|Away> but when you are 3, 2 you can't pick this anymore
20:21:18  <TL|Away> while both routes go via 3, 2
20:21:31  <TL|Away> (you understand a bit what I am trying to say?)
20:21:39  <KUDr> yes
20:21:51  <KUDr> but not sure how it can happen
20:21:53  <TL|Away> I dunno of such rare situation can influence the path-picking process :)
20:22:16  <Bjarni> goodnight people
20:22:19  <TL|Away> night Bjarni
20:22:27  *** Bjarni [] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:22:28  <KUDr> it can happen only when there are differencies in train positions
20:22:56  <KUDr> Bja: gn
20:23:11  <TL|Away> KUDr: if I load a game
20:23:18  <TL|Away> and I am at a tile that can go both routes
20:23:26  <KUDr> TL|Away: i am playing your game for hours but no desync
20:23:33  <TL|Away> does YAPF calculate a route then?
20:23:42  <KUDr> yes
20:23:58  <TL|Away> does YAPF consider current x/y position within the tile?
20:24:07  <KUDr> no
20:24:21  <TL|Away> hmmz
20:24:24  <KUDr> train controller does
20:24:32  <TL|Away> I still suspect that it is something in this neighbour
20:24:35  <KUDr> and train controller invokes yapf
20:24:41  <TL|Away> but I have no idea how YAPF really works, and I really don't want to know ;)
20:24:56  <KUDr> it is the same as any other PF
20:25:17  <KUDr> it only recommends the bect choice
20:25:26  <KUDr> depending on situation
20:25:39  <TL|Away> k
20:25:42  <KUDr> but only when it is invoked by controller
20:25:42  <TL|Away> then I am out of ideas ;)
20:25:43  <TL|Away> hehe :p
20:25:56  <TL|Away> Btw, my game does desync when you join in the first 5 frames
20:26:03  <TL|Away> and on other moments too
20:26:08  <TL|Away> but it is a bit of a lottery
20:26:16  <TL|Away> 1 out of the 10 desyncs when you join at a random moment
20:26:24  <TL|Away> above the 120 frames it happens more often
20:26:41  <KUDr> so if there is different train position little difference inside tile, it can influence signal states and YAPF can then decide differentlyu
20:26:51  <TL|Away> Possible
20:27:13  <KUDr> do i need to build some track?
20:27:13  <TL|Away> but only
20:27:19  <KUDr> or only connect
20:27:21  <TL|Away> if the PF decides a path without really changing the trains direction
20:27:26  <TL|Away> I only watch
20:27:29  <TL|Away> do nothing else at all
20:27:36  <KUDr> me too
20:27:37  <TL|Away> (dedicated server + 1 client
20:27:51  <KUDr> i don't have dedicated server
20:27:57  <TL|Away> Start it with -D :p
20:27:59  <KUDr> but 1 or more clients
20:28:06  <KUDr> joining the same company
20:28:35  <TL|Away> but okay, try a bit around, try to see if such conditions can occour
20:28:50  <TL|Away> I have to go
20:28:52  <TL|Away> my gf complains :p
20:28:55  <KUDr> ok
20:28:59  <TL|Away> I hope you can find it :)
20:29:00  <KUDr> thanks for now
20:29:03  <TL|Away> Good luck anyway :)
20:29:04  <TL|Away> bye
20:29:05  <TL|Away> night all
20:29:08  <KUDr> gn
20:31:42  *** Dribbel [] has joined #openttd
20:32:55  *** sw4y [] has quit ["Odletam do paralelniho vesmiru..."]
20:35:03  *** Dribbel [] has left #openttd []
20:35:37  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
20:35:54  <Belugas_Gone> night all
20:44:05  *** dp [] has joined #openttd
20:45:00  *** GoneWacko [] has joined #openttd
20:47:08  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... how do i get the flash plugin to play sounds in linux?
20:53:48  <RichK67> comments please...
20:54:36  <anboni> no snowline after all?
20:54:54  <RichK67> ive just not added it... but id like view on arrangement of rest
20:55:03  <Zavior> That red backround on date setting sucks.
20:55:29  <RichK67> the snowline will go in the middle, if i have enough widgets (ive 27 so far.. i think limit is 31)
20:55:56  <anboni> yeah, i'd change date setting to the default orange i think
20:55:57  <RichK67> so other than "it sucks" ... what positive choice would you have instead
20:56:12  <RichK67> with black text???
20:56:25  <Zavior> Yellow backround with black text :(
20:56:34  <Zavior> But thats just my opinion
20:56:50  <RichK67> do you not like your own opinion??
20:56:51  <Zavior> Now its just screaming there
20:56:53  <anboni> yeah.. think so.. this red background kinda signals something very special
20:56:54  *** Zahl [] has quit ["YOU! It was you wasn't it!?"]
20:57:11  <RichK67> ok - so still fair enough for Generate and Use PNG then?
20:57:21  <anboni> i was just wondering about that :)
20:57:22  <Zavior> Ya
20:57:33  *** Dribbel [] has joined #openttd
20:57:46  <RichK67> i considered green for Generate background#
20:57:53  <anboni> i'm thinking make the generate button green
20:57:57  <anboni> :)
20:58:46  <anboni> and maybe make the PNG button the blue background.. makes it stand out, but not shout 'danger' :)
20:58:47  *** dp-- [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:58:47  *** dp is now known as dp--
20:59:43  <RichK67> ok
20:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Di Jul 11 2006] [19:46:29] <Wolf01> there is an unicode+fixed space font to use in mIRC? <- i used to use "Fixedsys Excalibur", maybe google for it
21:00:17  <RichK67> ok recompiling
21:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that date format is seriously fucked up...
21:00:35  <RichK67> how so?
21:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it switched the day and the month
21:01:07  <RichK67> nope... that is normal *english* way of displaying it
21:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well, but not in a german locale setting :p
21:01:43  <anboni> Eddi|zuHause, still using suse?
21:01:45  <RichK67> yeah... well, i assume {DATE_LONG} will use whatever is your local way
21:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, it should have a . after the 11
21:02:01  *** Osai [] has joined #openttd
21:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, anboni
21:02:21  <RichK67> huh? what 11?
21:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the day ;)
21:02:38  <anboni> Applications / Utitilies / Desktop / Control Center
21:02:44  <anboni> might be able to find some useful settings there
21:03:10  <RichK67> 1st is fine
21:04:01  <RichK67>   better?
21:04:03  *** Dribbel [] has left #openttd []
21:04:45  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
21:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> grr... how much of my last words came through?
21:05:20  <anboni> Eddi|zuHause the day ;) < was the last
21:05:49  <anboni> RichK67, much better :) maybe make the Generate text white instead of this yellow
21:05:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> [2006-07-11 23:03] <Eddi|zuHause> in the german date format that would be "11. Juli 2006"
21:05:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> [2006-07-11 23:04] <Eddi|zuHause> it is also very interesting how Konversation uses a different date format for displaying and for logging...
21:06:19  <anboni> and perhaps reduce the start date to just a year display, and add the text "start year" or something like that to it
21:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> i might look into a different chat client
21:06:33  <anboni> i sorta like xchat
21:07:10  <anboni> although that does have a few drawbacks too.. like i cant copy+paste a line including the timestamp
21:08:03  <Artea_> dbg: [NET] Artea reported an error and is closing his connection (desync error)
21:08:05  <RichK67> dang... changing the text colour for Generate changes english.txt... full recompile :(
21:08:11  <Artea_> in 2031
21:08:17  <anboni> duh
21:08:33  <Artea_> 81 years :'(
21:09:28  <RichK67> should i make the generate button bigger?? ie. taller?
21:09:55  <anboni> hmm.. yeah, that might be a good idea too... make it stand out just a tad more
21:10:14  <RichK67> ok
21:10:44  <Artea_> an IRC Chat Window inside of OpenTTD... no ? ;)
21:10:49  <Artea_> * a
21:10:57  <hylje> OTTD window manager
21:10:59  <hylje> ftw ?
21:11:56  <Artea_> a IRC Window Chat
21:12:08  <Artea_> a IRC Client for OTTD...
21:14:07  <Artea_> "Unofficial IRC API - A fast & efficient method of communicating with an IRC host using the IRC (RFC1459) Protocol. Intended for developers who desire an effective library of functions for communicating with an IRC server without knowledge of the protocol."
21:14:56  <RichK67> ok... how about this then...
21:15:32  <Artea_> cute
21:16:16  *** thgergo [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:16:41  <RichK67> zavior, eddi, anboni?
21:17:17  <anboni> RichK67, perfect:) just maybe that date display
21:17:42  <Zavior> Looks fine
21:18:28  <anboni> RichK67, oh and maybe move the PNG button up a few pixels so it's aligned with the terrain type button
21:18:35  <anboni> but not quite sure on that one
21:18:45  <kbrooks> heh
21:19:10  <kbrooks> this company SUCKS
21:19:37  <kbrooks> they put 2 airports NEAR each other
21:19:51  <kbrooks> and it doesnt give them good income
21:20:01  <Artea_> ...
21:20:32  <kbrooks> ignore me if you want
21:20:36  <Artea_> lolz
21:20:37  <RichK67> dang... in other languages, there isnt enough space for the "map size" phrase
21:20:59  <Artea_> RichK67: can u create the resize GUI ?
21:21:02  <anboni> hmmm.. dang, good point.. "Map grootte" in dutch.. and that's already cheating
21:21:11  <Artea_> * automatic-resize GUI
21:21:24  <RichK67> anboni - i deliberately moved it down to not align... it was a bit cramped
21:21:40  <anboni> ok, like i said, not sure :)
21:22:00  <RichK67> gui in OTTD is horrid... hardcoded numbers, and no easy way to change them
21:22:26  <Artea_> i was talking about size
21:22:31  <RichK67> date display is regionalised in other languages... german shows 1. ....
21:22:32  <anboni> yeah... making the station window resizable was a bit of a nightmare :)
21:23:05  <Artea_> automatic resizing, counting the letters for that
21:23:18  <Artea_> for example
21:23:39  <RichK67> artea - *every* line and item is explicitly positioned by an x and y... its all hardcoded... so, no, there is no resize available
21:23:55  <Artea_> Scenario (EN) Cenário (PT)
21:24:05  <Artea_> is 1 letter difference
21:24:18  <Artea_> u can program to lenght the letters
21:24:23  <Artea_> and resize it automatic
21:24:34  <anboni> Artea_, that can NOT be done without a MAJOR overhaul of the ui system
21:24:34  <RichK67> not for fixed widgets you cant
21:24:52  <Artea_> ok
21:24:59  <RichK67> its a nightmare
21:25:22  <Artea_> who u create the Window ?
21:25:33  <Artea_> errrr
21:26:31  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:26:43  <Artea_> the window is created with math code ?
21:27:25  <glx> just the try&see method :)
21:27:46  <Artea_> because
21:27:50  <Artea_> if is
21:27:58  <Artea_> is easy to code
21:28:02  <Wolf01> 'night all
21:28:02  <Artea_> like
21:28:06  *** Wolf01 [] has quit ["e ricordate, per la legge di avogadro non esiste cazzo quadro"]
21:28:27  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:28:29  <glx> Artea_: a "window" is an array of widget, with all values hardcoded
21:28:38  <Artea_> hummmmm
21:29:31  <Artea_> so is dificult to make a IRC Window GUI, a Admin Tools GUI, Network Info GUI
21:29:37  <Artea_> and bla bla bla
21:29:43  <hylje> no
21:29:48  <hylje> but getting it right is
21:30:31  <Artea_> i need to see the code
21:30:32  <glx> and you can have 32 widgets at max in a window
21:30:45  <Artea_> i just only saw the 4 files to change Town Names...
21:30:47  <hylje> glx: by default, i recall it not being a hard limit
21:31:02  <hylje> Artea_: svn co svn://
21:31:17  <Artea_> i know svn
21:31:24  <glx> hylje: disable state is an uint32 I think
21:32:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> Artea_: check "whatever_gui.c" file
21:32:39  <Artea_> ok
21:33:09  <RichK67> some are awkward still... italian, brazilian, catalan overflows
21:33:37  *** Dred_furst [] has quit ["( :: NoNameScript 4.0 :: )"]
21:33:50  <hylje> is the ukrs + replace vehicles overflowing fixed yet
21:35:07  <Artea_> is easy to make a diagonal station ?
21:35:39  <RichK67>
21:35:57  <RichK67>
21:36:08  <glx> RichK67: fr too?
21:36:08  <RichK67>
21:36:08  <Artea_> good
21:36:55  <RichK67>
21:37:01  <anboni> hmm.. brazil is still a bit off :( but otherwise it's looking good
21:37:05  <RichK67> just for french... its the darn colon
21:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's "de", not "ge"
21:38:33  <RichK67> when its the first two letters of the english name i was typing, its ge ;)
21:38:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> could use a few more translations...
21:38:54  <RichK67> not committed to trunk (yet)
21:39:27  <peter1138> that generate button is *ugly* :P
21:39:32  <Artea_> in few weeks
21:39:46  <Artea_> i will make the 2 a 4 Dedicated Windows Servre
21:39:46  <RichK67> where is the "strangle-someone" emoticon??
21:39:48  <Artea_> * Server
21:39:49  <Artea_> :D
21:40:23  <RichK67> peter: serious?? or just kidding?
21:40:47  <Artea_> i just saw the game don't send a large uploads
21:40:57  <Artea_> about 0.38kbps
21:41:02  <peter1138> seriously
21:41:10  <RichK67> ok... suggestion then?
21:41:12  <peter1138> like a sore thumb
21:41:17  <peter1138> er, well, dunno :)
21:41:19  <Artea_> just get bigger then someone is downloading the scenario
21:41:20  <Artea_> :)
21:41:25  <peter1138> the rest of the gui is fine, apart from the overlapping text
21:41:45  <Artea_> peter1138: do u know if can autoresize
21:41:51  <Artea_> the gui ?
21:42:01  <RichK67> so what dont you like... the size (to make it clear), the colour (ditto)??
21:42:05  <peter1138> what do you mean by that?
21:42:09  <peter1138> RichK67: both i think
21:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> i am afraid "Anzahl der Städte" and "Anzahl der Industrien" (or similar) is hard to fit in there
21:42:21  <peter1138> RichK67: perhaps make it look like the others, but give it its own line
21:42:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> (No. Towns/Industries)
21:42:47  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, then the gui should be made to accomodate
21:43:05  <RichK67> nah... i dont want that.. sick of boring narrow buttons... it wont stand out ... i did have it in red, so this is positively toned down ;)
21:43:26  <Artea_> peter1138: a resize with count the length of word
21:44:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> who was responsible for the GUI rewrite again :p
21:44:40  <Artea_> in math code is easy to make it
21:44:50  <RichK67> peter: i feel both of the PNG and Generate buttons need to clearly stand out... PNG does with colour, Generate (Green=go) with colour and size
21:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> i kinda like the colour
21:45:20  *** Angst [] has quit ["gn"]
21:45:21  <peter1138> Artea_: possible, but only manually
21:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> not so sure with the size
21:45:48  <peter1138> what's maths got to do with a gui? heh
21:45:54  <Artea_> i know make a autoresize window in Turbo Pascal
21:45:56  <Artea_> HAHAHA
21:45:56  <peter1138> (calculate dimensions is not exactly maths...)
21:46:20  <RichK67> maybe line up top of generate button with bottom of "sea level" button... so reduce by about 1/4
21:46:25  <Artea_> you can lenght the word
21:46:38  <Artea_> and add to 'x' var
21:46:48  <peter1138> length the word?
21:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> OTTD isn't exactly built on top of TurboVision (or similar) :p
21:47:02  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: no, it's far superior ;)
21:47:04  <Artea_> Scenario = 8 letters
21:47:05  <kbrooks> its written in C
21:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> <Artea_> Scenario = 8 letters <- which all have different length
21:47:37  <Artea_> Eddi|zuHause2
21:47:42  <Artea_> it's that i try to say
21:48:07  <Artea_> you can code to length the word
21:48:13  <Artea_> and resize it automatic
21:48:20  <peter1138> length *of* the word
21:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> but like it is already said multiple times, the current GUI code does not support that
21:48:29  <Artea_> ;)
21:48:42  <Artea_> not support now
21:48:43  <Artea_> ;)
21:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> and you have like 2 dozen languages
21:48:54  <RichK67>  <-- slightly slimmer generate button
21:49:10  *** zemei [] has quit ["Download Gaim:"]
21:49:13  <Artea_> Eddi|zuHause2: all words is in lang directory
21:49:38  <peter1138> anyway
21:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> don't try to argue ;)
21:49:41  <Artea_> it's easy to manipulate a code to access it
21:49:43  <peter1138> getting the length of a string is not hard
21:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> if they say it's not possible, it is not, unless you provide a GUI code rewrite (huge project!)
21:50:13  <anboni> Artea_, try actually coding some GUI stuff in ottd before you start saying 'it's easy"
21:50:55  <Artea_> anboni: in point of newbie coder (only coded in *P*a*s*c*a*l*)
21:51:06  <Artea_> i just say anything
21:51:25  <Artea_> a re-ajust gui
21:51:27  <anboni> Artea_, then stop talking this bullshit when 3 or 4 people have already told you that it cannot be done
21:51:33  <Artea_> in theory it's easy
21:51:43  <peter1138> oh, it can be done, but with a design change
21:51:57  <peter1138> gui elements need to be position relative to others, instead of absolute
21:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> but still, i think the town and industry dropdowns should be over each other, than next to each other... to allow for longer texts
21:51:58  <RichK67> (total rewrite of all 100+ guis)
21:52:31  <RichK67> eddi: ok... can do
21:53:26  <Artea_> anboni: i going shut my f**** mouth... it's better... no ?
21:53:31  * peter1138 ponders a gtk style gui system ... boxes 'n stuff
21:53:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> can it be that the random seed field is higher than the randomise button?
21:55:12  *** Artea_ is now known as Artea_aWaY|Codin
21:55:31  *** Artea_aWaY|Codin is now known as Artea_Code_TNG-P
21:56:02  <RichK67> it was 1 pixel higher
21:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> that will always bother me in the future, now that i know ;)
21:56:44  <RichK67> sorted
21:56:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> ok :)
21:56:53  <anboni> night folks
22:00:34  *** Artea_Code_TNG-P is now known as Artea
22:01:02  <RichK67>
22:03:31  <RichK67> eddi, anboni, peter... comments?
22:04:38  <peter1138> yeah, it's way past my bedtime
22:04:40  *** TinoM [] has quit ["Verlassend"]
22:04:53  <RichK67> lol
22:05:04  <peter1138> the spacing needs some tweaking, to be consistent
22:05:39  <RichK67> just no. of inds?
22:08:03  <RichK67>
22:08:06  <RichK67> updated
22:10:37  <peter1138> better
22:10:57  <RichK67> ok - now to add snow line
22:11:09  <Nubian> hmm
22:11:11  <RichK67> and then that is it... TGP ready for approval
22:11:24  <RichK67> hmm... what?
22:13:01  <peter1138> well, commit that to your branch, no?
22:13:25  <RichK67> i will when ive put the snow line control in
22:14:30  <ln-> what's DC_NO_RAIL_OVERLAP?
22:17:22  *** Trenskow [n=outlet@] has joined #openttd
22:17:30  *** ChrisM87 [] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:21:44  <ln-> player.h:238: why does the function have to be on one single line?
22:22:35  *** tokai|noir [] has quit ["It's like, wah."]
22:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> functions in .h files is one of the worst parts of C
22:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, .h files are ;)
22:25:18  <glx> it just doesn't follow coding style
22:30:38  <KUDr> but it helps with performance
22:30:52  *** Nubian [n=nubian@] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:33:16  <glx> KUDr: how can it helps with performance ?
22:33:36  <glx> or you speak of .h generally
22:33:40  *** Osai [] has quit []
22:34:09  <KUDr> inline functions in .h are more often used for inlining
22:34:27  <KUDr> during optimization phase
22:34:52  <glx> yes I agree with that, I just said player.h:238 doesn't follow coding style :)
22:34:54  <KUDr> linker is not always able to use inline function effectively
22:35:06  <KUDr> aha
22:35:26  <KUDr> i thought it was about functions in .h generally
22:35:34  <KUDr> they are helpfull
22:36:20  <glx> inline function are important for code speed
22:37:11  <KUDr> yes, this was my suggestion
22:37:34  <ln-> writing an inline function on one line is not.
22:37:56  <glx> ln-: that's just a coding style bug :)
22:40:00  *** Zr40 [] has quit ["Leaving"]
22:40:03  <RichK67> i need help... i want to add a simple drop down with the numbers 3..13 for snow line height... but using the static const StringID snow_line[] = {..., ..., ....}; i have to elaborate each of the numbers as strings in english.txt ... is there any way around this?
22:40:44  <glx> use StringID + offset fr displaying
22:40:47  <glx> *for
22:40:48  <KUDr> 3, 4, 5 must be also translated or not?
22:40:52  *** Jezral [n=projectj@] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:41:26  <eQualizer> Is it known bug that helicopters get stuck over competitors' airports?
22:41:28  <RichK67> glx: nope... its the whole having to declare the numbers as strings
22:42:00  <eQualizer> (Don't know did that one get stuck while being over it when it was build or did it just flew there and got stuck.)
22:42:01  <glx> you can use temp stringID with DrawText
22:42:33  <RichK67> in the drop down?
22:42:48  <glx> how it is done for map size?
22:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> RichK67: how about doing the numbers as parameters?
22:43:03  <RichK67> same - elaborated strings
22:43:03  <peter1138> map sizes are pre-allocated
22:43:15  *** Brianetta [] has quit ["Tschüß"]
22:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> like, you have one string {number} (or whatever)
22:43:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> and insert the parameter then for display
22:43:34  <glx> yes that should work
22:43:48  <peter1138> dropdowns *only* work with string ids with no parameters
22:43:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> ugh
22:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> fun ;)
22:44:05  <RichK67> yup - thats what i feared
22:44:16  <peter1138> reason: the drop down is only set up once
22:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> then don't use a dropdown, use arrows instead
22:44:26  <peter1138> there after, redraws will not have the same information
22:44:29  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
22:44:52  <RichK67> arrows mean i need space for the up and down arrows, plus the number... this way its just number and down arrow
22:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... don't the patche options or difficulty settings have arrows all over the place? what is wrong with those?
22:46:39  <RichK67> not the same sort of arrows as the main gui ones... they will look odd
22:48:10  <glx> you can display it like date: down-number-up
22:48:22  <ln-> what's the RailType constant name for regular track and elrail?
22:48:25  <glx> should not take to much space
22:48:40  <glx> ln-: rail.h I guess
22:48:53  <RichK67> enough.. im really tight on space... i suppose i could expand, but its gonna get too big soon
22:49:00  <ln-> glx: thnx
22:50:49  <glx> RichK67: "random seed" y offset seems wrong
22:51:15  <glx> (screenshot5)
22:51:41  <RichK67> how do you mean? the number is short, because it can be a full width
22:51:46  <RichK67> int
22:52:12  <glx> I mean the space between lines is different for that line
22:53:11  <RichK67> good spot - 2 pixels in it
22:54:18  *** _Red [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:55:57  *** Jezral [] has joined #openttd
22:56:06  *** _Red [] has joined #openttd
22:56:34  *** Forexs [] has quit ["Go on, get out. Last words are for fools who haven't said enough. - Karl Marx"]
22:58:03  <ln-> is DoConvertRail() the proper, network-safe way to convert the rails in one tile?
22:59:27  *** Spoco [] has quit []
22:59:46  <ln-> or should it be CmdConvertRail()?
23:00:07  <KUDr> ln-: i think "DoCommandP()" is what you must call
23:00:16  <KUDr> with proper command
23:00:24  <glx> I agree with KUDr
23:00:51  *** Maedhros [n=jc@gentoo/developer/Maedhros] has quit ["leaving"]
23:01:41  <KUDr> as cmd argument
23:01:57  <ln-> ok
23:02:05  <glx> check rail_gui.c:470
23:02:20  <KUDr> look at the GUI for p1 and p2 arguments
23:03:25  <ln-> endtile and starttile can be the same, i assume
23:04:11  <KUDr> usually yes
23:05:07  *** Zbeynex [] has joined #openttd
23:07:08  <ln-> openttd: command.c:414: DoCommandP: Assertion `_docommand_recursive == 0' failed.
23:07:36  <KUDr> so you call it from another command
23:07:44  <KUDr> you can't
23:07:44  <ln-> maybe i should have mentioned i'm trying to convert within CmdBuildSingleRail().
23:08:08  <ln-> what's the proper procedure in that case?
23:08:13  <KUDr> then you don't need network-safe way
23:08:21  <ln-> ok, cool
23:08:31  <KUDr> hopefully
23:08:47  *** Trenskow [n=outlet@] has quit [""]
23:08:59  <KUDr> test it in MP then
23:09:29  <glx> in this case just call CmdConvertRail from CmdBuildSingleRail
23:09:39  <KUDr> yes
23:09:58  <KUDr> if all clients will do the same it should work
23:13:01  *** egladil_ [] has joined #openttd
23:13:36  <Frostregen> RichK67: i don't want to bother you, but how long is your todo list, and what place is the copy&paste update?
23:14:07  <RichK67> im not doing any miniin this week... if it in the forum thread, ill get round to it next week
23:14:21  <Frostregen> i know that
23:14:50  <RichK67> then you have your answer ;)
23:15:06  <Frostregen> not the place in the list ;)
23:15:21  <RichK67> no list, no places ;)
23:15:23  <Frostregen> its been on the page for 3 weeks now
23:15:38  <Frostregen> damn ;)
23:15:40  <RichK67> oh! post a new link to it
23:15:52  <RichK67> sorry - i only check back about 2-3 pages
23:15:54  *** coppercore [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:16:01  <RichK67> must have missed it
23:16:19  <Frostregen> i guessed you missed it, thats why i asked about it 2 weeks ago
23:16:29  <Frostregen> ok
23:18:09  <Frostregen> page 27 out of 35 ;)
23:18:30  *** egladil_ibook [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
23:18:38  *** Sionide [] has joined #openttd
23:18:38  <RichK67> add a new link on page 35 to the page 27 entry please
23:20:36  *** coppercore [] has joined #openttd
23:23:36  <ln-> Celestar: ping
23:24:52  *** Morlark [] has quit [Connection timed out]
23:26:27  <Frostregen> done
23:31:29  <ln-> am i stupid or can i not start a network game and connect to it from localhost?
23:34:59  <ln-> anyway, i managed to do what i was trying to do. just that i haven't confirmed that it works with network.
23:39:48  *** Jezral [] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
23:45:02  *** KritiK [] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier."]
23:53:11  *** Ihmemies [] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
23:56:01  *** Brianetta [] has quit ["Tschüß"]
23:58:32  <ln->
23:58:51  <hylje> oo
23:58:53  <hylje> automagical
23:59:38  <hylje> what it does exactly? allows elrail to connect to conv and vice versa?
23:59:48  <kbrooks> i want to ask a question

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk