Log for #openttd on 31st October 2006:
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00:00:09  <Ailure> I could always go download a really old version
00:00:10  <Bjarni> I never figured out anything about it except it affected road vehicles
00:00:17  <Ailure> first release of openTTD, and then look at the source
00:00:28  <Bjarni> yeah, it will be there
00:01:28  <Ailure> heh
00:01:45  <Darkvater> glx: window.h unkA and unkB were my favourite :)
00:01:48  <Ailure> I never got openTTD to compile within a IDE, but I was succeful doing it through cygwin.
00:02:03  <Ailure> I probably should set up the compiler and play around with the source.
00:02:13  <Ailure> First things I do is probably doing insane stuff
00:02:14  <Darkvater> I think the AI still has some magic variable names
00:02:37  <Ailure> such as hardcoding the game to have infinite (or really high) max speed hardcoded :P
00:02:42  <Ailure> for each vehicle
00:02:45  <Ailure> might be amusing to see
00:02:45  <Darkvater> Ailure: VS2003/2005 compile out of the box (well, after setting up libpng/zlib/directX libraries or disabling them)
00:02:57  <glx> Ailure: you just need an editor to read the source :)
00:03:02  <Sacro> Darkvater: so not entirely out of the box then :)
00:03:03  <Ailure> I was using Devc++
00:03:10  <Ailure> followed the guide
00:03:12  <Wolf01> gnight
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00:03:17  <Bjarni> Ailure: you can code in notepad if you like
00:03:19  <Ailure> no success, even with converting the project file
00:03:23  <Bjarni> it's not recommended though :P
00:03:25  <Ailure> lol
00:03:29  <Ailure> I probably do the cygwin way
00:03:29  <Darkvater> Sacro: almost :)
00:03:35  <Ailure> seems to give the least headaches
00:03:40  <Darkvater> cygwin is so damn slow...
00:03:41  <Ailure> I have VS2005 on my laptop though.
00:03:52  <Ailure> Came with it
00:03:56  * Bjarni once coded C in notepad
00:04:02  <Darkvater> I have it locally but it's a pain to compile on it; takes ages
00:04:03  <Ailure> Since the laptop was gotten from college
00:04:11  <Ailure> I'm technically loaning it, but can buy it when I got my final exam
00:04:43  <Bjarni> I didn't have anything else to write in, so I wrote like 3 pages and saved it. Once I moved it to a computer with a compiler the next day, it just compiled and worked just fine
00:04:47  <Bjarni> now that's nice coding :D
00:04:48  <Ailure> Is it the compiler itself being slow, or is it just the cygwin layer? :P
00:04:57  <Darkvater> cygwin layer
00:05:03  <Ailure> I assumed so
00:05:11  <Darkvater> gcc works just fine when run on linux
00:05:33  <Ailure> It probably would be faster
00:05:44  <Ailure> if it was somehow run as a subsystem instead through Win32
00:05:56  <Ailure> some server version of Windows
00:06:01  <glx> gcc isn't too slow with mingw/msys but VS2005 is really faster to compile
00:06:04  <Ailure> do even have a NIX subsystem according to a friend of mine
00:07:11  <Naksu> Ailure: there's an "unix for windows"
00:07:15  <Naksu> or whatever that is
00:07:50  <Naksu> no wait
00:07:54  <Naksu> windows services for unix
00:08:05  <glx> yes the other way :)
00:08:16  <Ailure> yeah there is
00:08:25  <Naksu>
00:08:26  <Ailure> though this subsystem isn't the same thing though
00:08:28  <Ailure> a friend of mine tried it
00:08:33  <Ailure> it kinda sucks I heard
00:08:39  <Naksu> it's not supposed to be unix
00:08:44  <Ailure> comparing to using pure linux
00:08:51  <Ailure> or any other NIX
00:09:17  <Naksu> it's meant to be devoid of the usual linux toys
00:09:36  <Naksu> i've understood it's for those migrating from an unix system into a windows one
00:10:11  <Sacro> has GCC 3.3 compiler, includes and libraries (though a MS libc)
00:10:18  <Sacro> and gdb
00:10:54  <Naksu> yeah but no bash or make :)
00:11:02  <Sacro> Naksu: you can add bash
00:11:06  <Sacro> and probably add make
00:11:08  <glx> I have bash :)
00:11:21  <glx> (with msys)
00:13:11  <Ailure> msys seems oddball
00:13:15  <Ailure> I have it on my laptop though
00:13:16  <Ailure> :P
00:13:22  <Ailure> got it to work and all too
00:13:35  <Ailure> but I might try cygwin for my main desktop
00:16:08  <Bjarni> goodnight
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01:45:44  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7008 /trunk/player_gui.c: -Fix [FS#369]: Crash at game end when server company is bankrupt
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02:05:04  <Ailure> I wonder what happens instead now
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03:52:13  <roboboy> hello
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08:13:21  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7009 /trunk/vehicle_gui.c: - Fix (r1323, r1326): In the replace vehicle window, the left vehicle list was not drawn when an engine was not selected.
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08:45:28  <MeusH> hi
08:46:15  <roboboy> hello
08:49:45  <MeusH> hey roboboy
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09:23:30  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7010 /branches/utf8/ (62 files in 5 dirs): [utf8] -Sync with r6940:r7009 from trunk
09:25:33  <Darkvater> morning
09:27:06  <peter1138> mr 'vater
09:28:27  <Darkvater> wtf...
09:28:47  <Darkvater> ok, which funny guy charged 500 euros to my CC?
09:29:24  <Darkvater> I couuldn't even pay for food yesterday, had to bring it embarassing :s
09:29:46  <peter1138> o_O
09:32:28  <Darkvater> damn right :(
09:37:14  <Darkvater>
09:37:15  <Darkvater> lol
09:37:25  <Darkvater> bjarni-speak ^^
09:37:33  <peter1138> hmm?
09:37:36  <peter1138> oh
09:37:41  <peter1138> what's he trying to say?
09:38:15  <Darkvater> donnu, something about magic
09:38:36  <roboboy> !summon bjarni (for Darkvater)
09:39:08  <roboboy> its worked in #tycoon before
09:41:20  <Darkvater> bbl gotta find out who ripped me off
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10:15:08  <Darkvater> hmm should've
10:15:17  <Darkvater> they could at least warn me before ripping me off
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10:20:23  <peter1138> o_O
10:21:41  * Eddi|zuHause2 imagines a scene like in the Bundys intro :)
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10:30:44  * roboboy bed
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10:40:53  <peter1138> hmm, utf8 diff is 95KB
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10:45:02  <Wolf01> 'lo
10:49:03  <peter1138> hi
10:50:58  <peter1138> hmm, a good portion of it is just changing the town name generator
10:51:37  <Prof_Frink> commeet eet!
10:51:40  <peter1138> heh, lines 35-1580
10:58:14  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7011 /branches/utf8/newgrf_text.c: [utf8] -Fix (r5025): bytes are 8 bits, not 16...
10:59:51  <Wolf01> :OOO i can't compile
11:00:11  <Wolf01> i updated the tortoise SVN and now errors and lot of errors
11:00:12  <Brianetta> You shouldn't be compiling, Wolf01.  use a compiler to do that for you.
11:00:31  <CaptObvious> I have a full list of UK towns at work, I could probably export that and pass it to someone here that can put it into the game as town names
11:00:51  <peter1138> why?
11:00:55  <CaptObvious> it's a list from the Ordinance Survey
11:01:02  <peter1138> so?
11:01:08  <CaptObvious> so, it's a complete list of UK towns
11:01:08  <Brianetta> Ordnance Survey
11:01:14  <CaptObvious> ya Brianetta: that too
11:01:16  <CaptObvious> :P
11:01:43  <Brianetta> I'm sure the town name generator generates a good proportion of the country's real settlement names as it is.
11:01:59  <CaptObvious> never seen one I recognise
11:02:05  <Brianetta> Although I don't know of a real Huntfingford
11:02:15  <CaptObvious> there's a Huntingdon
11:02:23  <Brianetta> CaptObvious lives up to his name
11:02:42  <CaptObvious> well you might not have known that :P
11:03:06  <peter1138> using real town names is not really useful
11:03:07  <Brianetta> Not have known about it?  There's a mainline station there
11:03:20  <CaptObvious> mainline in huntingdon?
11:03:30  <CaptObvious> as far as I know, the closest main line station is peterborough
11:03:33  <peter1138> when London is a hamlet with 4 buildings...
11:03:42  <CaptObvious> east coast main line that is
11:04:40  <CaptObvious> and to change the subject - I once wrote an openttd installer in VB6 that prompted you to choose between stable and nightly, downloaded and extracted the latest one you picked and installed it along with the graphics files and game music
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11:05:00  <CaptObvious> dunno what I did with it
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11:08:33  <peter1138> well, huntingdon has a mainline station
11:08:43  <peter1138> but i'm not sure if that's a good reason for knowing of it ;)
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11:13:44  <CaptObvious> off into windows so I can do some flightsim
11:13:45  <CaptObvious> cya
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11:14:50  <Brianetta> peter1138: Of course it's a good reason.  This is an OpenTTD channel full of train nuts.
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11:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i do not know any english stations, except paddington ;)
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11:42:59  <amix> i just wonder about the signs
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11:43:18  <amix> people build them to just irritate
11:43:38  <amix> will they be removed?
11:44:02  <amix> so there will be better competition level?
11:45:11  <peter1138> hmm?
11:45:36  <peter1138> do you mean signs or buy land?
11:50:57  <peter1138> Darkvater: fancy AI fixign?
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11:57:28  <Celestar> hi peops
11:58:10  * Prof_Frink peops Celestar's baloon
11:59:06  <amix> signs
11:59:10  <amix> i mean signs
11:59:32  <amix> yesterday i built a station at a forest which someone else had
11:59:38  <amix> and he didnt like it
11:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> what do signs have to do with competition?
11:59:50  <amix> so he put signs infront of my tracks
12:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you DO mean the buy land tool
12:00:15  <amix> because anyone can build them to stop others from building
12:00:19  <Eddi|zuHause> NOT signs
12:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> signs say "Eddi was here."
12:00:39  <amix> ok
12:00:44  <amix> whatever
12:00:49  <amix> it looks like signs
12:00:50  <amix> ;P
12:00:55  <amix> when its built
12:01:08  <Prof_Frink> amix: disabling buy land will just make people use diagonal tracks for the same purpose
12:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and such abuse of the buy land tool is usually against the server's multiplayer rules, so you should complain to the next admin about it
12:01:34  <amix> oki
12:01:47  <amix> how do i know who is the admin?
12:02:00  <Prof_Frink> Which is in fact the cheaper option
12:02:03  <amix> is there a command for it?
12:04:33  <Brianetta> amix: Not unless you're lucky enough to have an admin who uses autopilot
12:05:00  <Wolf01> [13:01:11] <Prof_Frink> amix: disabling buy land will just make people use diagonal tracks for the same purpose
12:05:00  <Wolf01> and me angry because i use them for my eyecandy feature!
12:05:48  <Brianetta> amix: Had you been playing on my server, that other player would be facing a ban
12:06:01  <amix> nice
12:06:13  <amix> and later on
12:06:22  <amix> he just built a 2 wagon train
12:06:27  <amix> blocking my trucks
12:06:45  <Brianetta> We have a term for players like that
12:06:50  <Brianetta> Antisocial pillocks
12:07:03  <amix> trains should explode or something if they reached end of the tracks
12:07:23  <Brianetta> what?  no
12:07:29  <Brianetta> only if they can't stop in time
12:08:01  <amix> that would help so that people cant sabotage trucks road
12:08:06  <Prof_Frink> players should explode or something if they're wankers
12:08:33  <Brianetta> amix: It's simple.  Join a server with rules you like, and with an admin who will enforce them.
12:08:42  <Brianetta> A server is made or broken by having a good admin.
12:09:05  <amix> oki, how to read the rules for the server?
12:09:28  <Brianetta> If there are rules, the admin will usually put a URL to them in the server name
12:09:35  <Brianetta> otherwise you're SOL
12:09:58  <Brianetta> If they use autopilot, rules canbe announced on join
12:10:07  <amix> i think that the dessert level of openttd is coolest one
12:10:19  <amix> ohh
12:10:22  <peter1138> temperate + ukrs ftw
12:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i like temperate (with snow) and dbset
12:11:05  <amix> other than this i miss 2 things. trams and highways :)
12:11:21  <peter1138> i wonder when mb will update dbsetx;l
12:11:24  <amix> Eddi|zuHause: yea, nice level also..
12:11:27  <Brianetta> trams suck harder than Dyson cleaners
12:11:34  <Brianetta> because of the scale thing
12:11:38  <Celestar> I need someone to proof-read the bridge branch :P
12:11:43  <Prof_Frink> peter1138: with release of 2.5final probably
12:11:52  <Brianetta> They look like those sit-on trains you see at fun parks
12:11:54  <amix> trams would be cool
12:11:55  <peter1138> hmm
12:12:11  <Brianetta> Celestar: What's in it?
12:12:14  <amix> and they are more efficent than busses
12:12:16  <peter1138> bridges :)
12:12:17  <Prof_Frink> The original dbset was released with 2.0
12:12:21  <amix> so i hope it comes
12:12:24  <amix> as an option
12:13:20  <amix> when creating a server choices could be made.
12:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> my city just expanded and restructured its tram line system
12:13:46  <amix> no trains, no trams, no subways, no airoplanes, no boats etc
12:14:15  <amix> Eddi|zuHause: nice, where do you live?
12:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you can already make such choices
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12:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i live near Halle (Saale)
12:15:38  <amix> oki
12:15:40  <amix> :)
12:15:52  <amix> but trams.. that would be nice :)
12:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> about 12° East, 51° North
12:16:08  <amix> i see lots of others wanting it on the forums aswell
12:16:43  <amix> the tramsystem in Locomotion is great etc
12:16:53  <Brianetta> It sucks due to scale, too
12:17:00  <amix> no
12:17:02  <amix> i like it
12:17:13  <Brianetta> you mean yes, but you like it
12:17:13  <amix> retrogames have pixels
12:17:29  <amix> i idore pixels
12:17:31  <amix> :D
12:17:31  <Brianetta> They're half the height, which means eight times smaller by volume
12:17:39  <amix> thats why i have my Amiga still
12:17:46  <Brianetta> when they should be the same size
12:18:09  <amix> well, its done nicely in Locomotion
12:18:27  <amix> i like it when it comes to 1990s etc
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12:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> our trams are narrow gauge, and i am pretty sure they are smaller than trains
12:18:38  <amix> you get these lowfloor trams etc
12:18:54  <peter1138> Celestar: fancy making a diff against trunk? easier to see then ;)
12:18:56  <Brianetta> Eddi: Not half as high, half as long and half as wide?
12:19:02  <amix> Eddi|zuHause: here in Oslo, trams, subway and trains got same track size
12:19:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no, not half ;)
12:20:04  <Prof_Frink> The Croydon tram tracks look like something approaching full sized railways
12:20:10  <amix>
12:20:16  <amix> thats Oslo
12:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the height might be roughly the same, but they are shorter and less wide (what is the word for that?(
12:20:38  * Prof_Frink clambers through the ssh tunnel to get a photo
12:20:58  <Prof_Frink> dammit, forgot my camera
12:21:25  * peter1138 ponders having a lunch break today
12:21:37  <Celestar> peter1138: svn diff trunk/ branches/bridge/ ?
12:21:52  <peter1138> no
12:21:55  * Prof_Frink breaks peter1138's lunch
12:22:11  <amix> our subway cars wouldnt fit into London subway system etc
12:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, today is holiday ;)
12:22:21  <amix> half of the roof would fall of
12:22:22  <peter1138> :(
12:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> at least in half of germany ;)
12:22:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the other half has a holiday tomorrow ;)
12:23:03  <amix> oh no.. is it halloween today?
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12:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it is "Reformation Day"
12:23:31  <amix> oki
12:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> where Martin Luther proclaimed his 95 Thesis against the catholic church
12:24:04  <amix>
12:24:10  <amix> thats a nice site
12:24:25  <amix> map of all cities in europe, asia, america and oceania etc
12:24:34  <amix> subways mostly that is
12:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> resulting a split in the church, that has been going on for 500 years now
12:25:09  <amix> i dont believe in church ;P
12:25:19  <amix> i believe in you and me
12:25:50  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of wars have been fought about this
12:25:56  <amix> what if the world became like japan
12:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the worst one is the "30 years war"
12:26:19  <amix> where religion is seen as something that humans made up
12:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> which mainly destroyed the entire infrastructure of germany
12:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> in the (1618-1648)
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12:27:06  <amix> Norway is as rich as Japan
12:27:25  <amix> but the goverment dosent use money at all ;P
12:27:54  <Eddi|zuHause> now, the north and east of germany is mainly protestantic, while the south and west is mainly catholic
12:27:55  <amix> Norway got economy to rise everything...
12:28:08  <Zavior> Blah
12:28:10  <amix> but nothing happends
12:28:14  <amix> ;P
12:28:37  <Zavior> Finland is mostly lutherian(spelling?) country, yet we dont have holydays! :I
12:28:45  <Zavior> -y +i
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12:29:02  <amix> :)
12:29:09  <Noldo> which holydays?
12:29:16  <Brianetta> It's All Saint's Eve
12:29:19  <Brianetta> tonight
12:29:37  <amix> north of Norway dont have railway connection for example
12:29:38  <Brianetta> so why is my goth club putting on its Hallowe'en bash on the 4th?
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12:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> tomorrow is All Saints (in the other half of germany)
12:29:53  <Brianetta> That's like celebrating Christmas Eve a week late
12:30:21  <amix> in norway 93% dosent go to the churches anymore
12:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> All Saints is a catholic holiday
12:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so it is only celebrated in the mostly catholic parts
12:30:54  <Brianetta> That's fine.  It's followed inthe UK by Guy Fawkes' Night, which is decidedly protestant.
12:30:58  <amix> in churches on sundays there might be 2 or 3 people in each church
12:31:57  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that is like in most other countries, amix.
12:32:03  <peter1138> gah, fucking c#
12:32:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that is much more information than we need ;)
12:32:47  <peter1138> void function(void) { -> void function() { :?
12:32:48  <peter1138> :/
12:32:48  <Tobin> peter1138: Now, now, don't take it out on the language.
12:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> what would be the problem with that?
12:34:34  <amix> Eddi|zuHause: when people stop believing in god,.. thats the day when peace will become a reality. Until then, I dont see any end to wars :(
12:35:02  <peter1138> well i get used to using void with c ;p
12:35:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot stop believing
12:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you always believe in something
12:35:30  <amix> its like gigantic football matches.. or politics thats controlled by humans ideology and dreams
12:35:45  <amix> Eddi|zuHause: sure,.. i believe in you and me
12:35:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and that something will always conflict with the something of someone else
12:36:03  <amix> i believe in that my friends have a nice time
12:36:58  <amix> but to believe in dreams that were created 1000 years ago is just stoneage... people should start to care more about each others rather than fighting for dreams which isnt a reality at all.
12:37:46  <amix> believing in peoples hearts is good
12:38:01  <amix> believing in something that dosen exsists is just not good
12:39:16  <amix> and i have nothing against those which believes and are into some sort of religion. i just want people to be more open minded,.. to see that life is life and no god can control it.
12:40:26  <amix> or is god devil then? since he sends earthquakes, floods, trains crashing, boats sinking etc..
12:41:29  <amix> humans have soul and thats whats most important. go forward, be nice and help others...
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12:45:20  <amix> and now its snowing outside
12:45:26  <amix> ;)
12:48:00  <Celestar> peter1138: why not?
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12:51:08  <peter1138> because that doesn't show you the differences
12:51:21  <peter1138> you need to merge from the branch to trunk, then svn diff that
12:51:33  <peter1138> or maybe there's some other way...
12:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> amix: "i just want people to" and that is exactly the point, you cannot dictate people what to believe
12:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and as long as you want to, that will be the reason for wars...
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13:01:59  <Celestar> peter1138: good point :)
13:02:13  <Celestar> hmmm
13:02:21  <Celestar> opening a 900MB file in vim is slightly slow
13:05:08  <peter1138> ouch
13:05:15  <peter1138> i hope that's not the diff ;p
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13:06:02  <Eddi|zuHause> a 900MB diff of a 5MB program ^^
13:08:58  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause: you should see the size of the latin15 -> utf8 language changes...
13:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> well, at most you remove every single line, and replace it with one other line
13:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> which makes it twice as big as the program itself
13:10:08  <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: It gets bigger if you only change every *other* line
13:10:10  <Brianetta> try it
13:10:17  <Brianetta> the context lines can make it six times bigger
13:11:08  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... if the diff is somewhat intelligent, it merges those contexts
13:12:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but you are right, i did not consider the overhead
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13:35:01  <Celestar> peter1138: no it is not a 900MB diff
13:35:24  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: :P
13:35:32  <SpComb> Celestar: it loads the entire file into mem
13:35:49  <Celestar> SpComb: the problem is the stupid network cabling
13:35:52  <Celestar> I'm stuck with 100BaseT
13:36:09  <SpComb> you are loading a 900MB file into memory over a network? hf
13:36:24  <Celestar> well, it took 90 seconds
13:36:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well. 12 MB a second...
13:36:51  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: not 12
13:37:06  <Celestar> 100BaseT is 100.000.000 bits per second
13:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> !calc 10^8/8/1024^2
13:37:39  <_42_> Eddi|zuHause: 11.9209289550;
13:37:40  <Celestar> that makes 11.92 MB/sec
13:37:49  <Celestar> but you have about 4% IP overhead
13:38:03  <Eddi|zuHause> !calc 10^8/8/1024^2*0.96
13:38:03  <_42_> Eddi|zuHause: 11.4440917968;
13:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so, 11MB
13:38:14  <Celestar> yeah
13:38:19  <Celestar> that;s about what I get :P
13:38:56  <Eddi|zuHause> !m 900/11
13:39:02  <Eddi|zuHause> !calc 900/11
13:39:03  <_42_> Eddi|zuHause: 81.8181818181;
13:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause> wrong bot ;)
13:39:21  <CIA-1> celestar * r7012 /branches/bridge/ (62 files in 5 dirs): [bridge] - Sync with r6939:7011 from trunk
13:40:03  <Celestar> gaaah
13:40:16  <Celestar> r5361 breaks --stop-on-copy
13:41:43  <Celestar> C    BUGS
13:41:47  <Celestar> :P
13:42:36  <Celestar> WTF?
13:44:21  <Celestar> peter1138:
13:46:38  <peter1138> 404 :/
13:47:48  <KUDr_wrk> i have 403: You don't have permission to access the requested object. It is either read-protected or not readable by the server
13:48:02  <peter1138> oh, yes, 403
13:48:10  <peter1138> i didn't read it ;p
13:49:08  <Celestar> wtf?
13:49:47  <Celestar> reload
13:50:11  <peter1138> ooh, conflicts :)
13:50:21  <Celestar> a fair few
13:50:27  <Celestar> busy reading through them
13:50:37  <peter1138> conflicts == not synced properly
13:50:58  <Celestar> you think so?
13:51:02  <Celestar> do it better :)
13:51:02  <peter1138> well yes
13:51:23  * Celestar tries harder
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13:52:36  <peter1138> well it could be any sync
13:52:48  <peter1138> not necessarily the last one
13:52:53  <Celestar> well, as "BUGS" is posing a problem ..
13:52:57  <KUDr_wrk> some forgotten rev?
13:53:38  <Celestar> please help searching :)
13:53:48  <peter1138> hmm, fun :)
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13:55:29  <Celestar> suggestions?
13:55:50  <CIA-1> tron * r7013 /trunk/ (data/openttd.grf gfxinit.c table/files.h): Add glyphs for the interpunct. This is mainly useful for the catalan translation
13:56:16  <Celestar> I think Tron_ can help us as well :P
13:56:33  <Celestar> bbl
13:56:35  <Celestar> meeting
13:56:39  <KUDr_wrk> Celestar: make diffs from your syncing and compare them with new diffs from the same rev range
13:56:51  <CIA-1> tron * r7014 /trunk/lang/catalan.txt: Make use of the interpunct in the catalan translation: Change l.l to l?4?3l
13:57:27  <Tron_> s/$GARBAGE/l·l/
13:57:35  <peter1138> ahh
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13:59:15  <MiHaMiX> Tron_: PM
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14:03:02  <peter1138> tron for prime minister?
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14:10:14  <peter1138> Celestar: i've done a diff and there are no conflicts
14:10:57  <peter1138>
14:11:16  <peter1138> so the syncs have been fine
14:13:33  <Celestar> peter1138: ?
14:13:40  <Celestar> how did you merge?
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14:14:57  <Tron_> just to get this straigt: have you looked at your own diff?
14:15:05  <Tron_> especially the file "BUGS"
14:16:34  <peter1138> what about it?
14:16:52  <Tron_> you are serious to merge this to trunk?
14:17:00  <peter1138> heh
14:17:08  <peter1138> 1) of course it will change
14:17:25  <peter1138> 2) this is just to get a complete lot of changes in one go
14:17:52  <CIA-1> tron * r7015 /trunk/lang/catalan.txt: Revert r7014. Requested by MiHaMiX
14:18:13  <peter1138> hmm
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14:19:40  <peter1138> WT2 needs a conflict system or something
14:20:02  <Tron_> it handles it perfectly fine
14:20:09  <peter1138> i assume that's the issue with 7014
14:20:11  <Tron_> there's no technical reason
14:20:25  <peter1138> oh
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14:22:09  <Tron_> now something very stupid will happen
14:23:56  <CIA-1> miham * r7016 /trunk/lang/catalan.txt: Revert the revert, since I didn't request that, Tron must've misunderstood me :-(
14:24:10  <peter1138> wahey
14:24:18  * peter1138 ponders reverting something for fun
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14:24:30  <MiHaMiX> Tron_: no, that very stupid thing you referred already happened by then...
14:24:33  <MiHaMiX> [[15:20]] <CIA-1> tron * r7015 /trunk/lang/catalan.txt: Revert r7014. Requested by MiHaMiX
14:25:40  <peter1138> Tron_: btw, do you remember the state of the tile clearing bug listed? i seem to remember that one being diagnosed, and i've not experienced it
14:26:47  <Tron_> the internal encoding of "no bridge" wasn't always 0
14:27:02  <Tron_> ok, more complicated
14:27:13  <Tron_> there was a point in time when i saved the piece
14:27:19  <Tron_> it now gets calculated on the fly
14:27:32  <Celestar> you lost me
14:27:34  <Tron_> this also contained the information if there is a bridge at all
14:27:37  <peter1138> ah
14:27:44  <Tron_> 0 already was piece 0
14:27:48  <Tron_> so i used 7 for nothing
14:28:00  <Tron_> so if you cleared a non-bridgeable tile
14:28:18  <Tron_> like the last tree on a tile died
14:28:31  <Tron_> you suddenly had a bridge tile there
14:28:34  <hylje> :o
14:28:44  <Tron_> because just the "normal" part of the tile was rewritten to "clear tile"
14:28:52  <Tron_> and the bits representing a bridge remained
14:29:01  <Tron_> for a tree these bits didn't matter
14:29:02  <Celestar> I have not experienced this problem in 100s of hours of testing
14:29:03  <peter1138> right
14:29:04  <Tron_> an normally were 0
14:29:20  <Tron_> but suddenly 0 on a clear tile meant bridge piece 0 above
14:29:33  <Tron_> you can't experience it in the same way anymore
14:29:45  <Tron_> because 0 now means no bridge
14:29:51  <Tron_> the piece isn't stored anymore
14:29:58  <peter1138> right
14:30:05  <peter1138> but there could be a possible problem in the future
14:30:15  <peter1138> if some of feature uses those same bits and they're not cleared
14:30:26  <Tron_> you just have to make sure when a non-bridgable tile becomes a bridgable tile the bits are 0
14:30:42  <Tron_> this should normally be the case, because all unused bits for a tile should be 0
14:30:53  <peter1138> Celestar: there's a screenshot of it somewhere :)
14:30:59  <Tron_> yes, something else could use the bits
14:31:13  <Tron_> then it could become unnice
14:31:26  <Tron_> otherwise you don't want MakeClear() to clear the bits
14:31:45  <Celestar> if $SOMETHING_NEW sets bits, $SOMETHING_NEW should clear bits as well?
14:31:52  <Tron_> maybe you just change the type from one bridgable tile to another
14:32:09  <Tron_> MakeClear() neither sets nore resets these bits
14:32:20  <Tron_> s/nore/nor/
14:32:52  <Celestar> so what do we need to do?
14:32:54  <peter1138> because it can't
14:33:24  <peter1138> it needs to be cleared only when going from Can't-Have-Bridge to Can-Have-Bridge
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14:33:42  <peter1138> hmm
14:33:54  <peter1138> or not quite
14:34:14  <peter1138> needs to be cleared when removing a tile that uses those bits, but we don't have a cleanup function for that
14:34:21  <peter1138> or do we..
14:34:21  <peter1138> *sigh*
14:34:34  <peter1138> of course we do
14:34:38  * peter1138 shuts up and goes to sleep
14:34:57  * peter1138 reverts his irc ;p
14:35:26  <Celestar> so what should be done_
14:35:27  <Celestar> ?
14:39:36  <Belugas> in industry_cmd.c:956, a check is done on IT_FARM in order to see if farm fields need to be planted.  Question, why is it the only place in the code that does not check for IT_FARM2?  Even back to r1 and further beyond
14:42:32  <Belugas> IT_FARM_2, actually
14:43:59  <Belugas> it's like the sub arctic farm is not allowed plant fields when in production
14:44:07  <Belugas> so, me scratches head
14:44:21  <Tron_> this is a very interesting question
14:44:32  <Tron_> and i bet it has a very interesting answer
14:44:35  <Tron_> you just have to find it
14:44:51  <Celestar> does that mean "nothing"
14:45:02  <Belugas> been looking for that for 2 days now...
14:45:22  <Belugas> thanks anyway ;)
14:45:50  <Tron_> most probably it's simply a bug
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14:46:31  <smithj> hi
14:47:04  <Tron_> Belugas: isn't IT_FARM_2 the sub-tropical farm?
14:47:10  <peter1138> it is
14:47:20  <Tron_> Celestar: this was directed at Belugas
14:47:53  <Tron_> i guess the answer to the bridge question is "ignore it"
14:48:00  <Tron_> nothing else uses these bits
14:48:11  * Celestar goes ignoring it
14:48:19  <Tron_> so for all correct tile transformations the bits are correct
14:48:59  <Tron_> if these bits should get used for something else then a solution has to be found
14:49:30  <Celestar> ay
14:50:04  <peter1138> perhaps replace the BUGS entry with a note to that effect
14:50:13  <peter1138> (where it'll be promptly ignored :))
14:50:26  * Celestar punches matlab
14:50:31  <Tron_> though i find it interesting that i saw somewhere somebody (can't remember right now) added another byte to the map
14:50:37  <Tron_> s/map/Tile/
14:50:44  <Celestar> Tron_: only in branches/newhouses
14:51:02  <Tron_> it's at 8 bytes long
14:51:09  <Tron_> that's as long as a IPv6 address!
14:51:16  <Celestar> er
14:51:16  <CIA-1> maedhros * r7017 /branches/newhouses/ (54 files in 5 dirs): [NewHouses] -Sync with trunk r6966:7016
14:51:25  <Tron_> hm, not
14:51:27  <Celestar> sorry but an IPv6 address is 128 bits
14:51:28  <Tron_> half as long
14:51:32  <Tron_> but still
14:51:34  <peter1138> heh
14:51:42  <Tron_> that's a /big/ number
14:52:03  <Celestar> we could just compute every possible combination and give it an index *runs away*
14:52:08  <peter1138> heh
14:52:27  <smithj> Can viaducts be built in openTTD...?
14:52:30  <Tron_> the largest maps just have 2^24 tile
14:52:31  <Tron_> s
14:52:33  <peter1138> yes
14:52:53  <Celestar> mesa no tink that we 8 bytes is that very much
14:52:54  <peter1138> but not aqueducts, which is probably what you mean
14:52:54  <Tron_> that's 2^40 less tiles than 8byte tiles have combinations
14:53:04  <smithj> yes, i meant those :)
14:53:17  <smithj> is there a plan to add them...?
14:53:34  <peter1138> only vague ones in my head that no-one else has seen
14:53:38  <peter1138> (for their sanity)
14:53:42  <smithj> heh
14:53:57  <smithj> would be a nice feature imho
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14:54:42  <Celestar> Tron_: I kind of fail to see your point?
14:54:56  <Tron_> i fail to see why more could be needed
14:55:13  * peter1138 idly wonders why MS consider line wrapping (which they call word wrap) to be an advanced feature
14:55:17  <Tron_> i see the point if you want more distinct things on one tile
14:55:27  <Tron_> like an explicit rail tail and above an explicit bridge tile
14:55:27  <Celestar> if all bits are used, we need to 1) add bits to store more features, 2) store the info somewhere else, 3) don't add the feature
14:55:59  <Celestar> the questions is: why store all that info in the map in the first the place?
14:56:26  <Celestar> it seems that we dump any info we don't know where to store into _m
14:56:51  <Tron_> i have to say i'm a bit proud ottd only uses 8bytes (rather 7.25, but in memory it's 8)
14:57:05  <Tron_> i tried to create a 2048x2048 map with Simutrans
14:57:10  <Celestar> hm..
14:57:18  <Celestar> m1, m2, m2, m3, m4, m5, m6
14:57:27  <Celestar> oh
14:57:29  <Tron_> luckily it has a projected memory requirement display right in the creation window
14:57:31  <Celestar> t&h
14:57:46  <Frostregen> was around 2 gb? =)
14:57:47  <Tron_> my jaw dropped right through the floor upon seeing the memory requirement
14:57:48  <Celestar> Tron_: and?
14:57:56  <peter1138> so how much does it need for that?
14:57:59  <Tron_> Frostregen: yes, somewhere around that
14:58:03  <Celestar> I think 2GB are no longer Jaw-Dropping in 2006
14:58:04  <peter1138> ...
14:58:14  <Frostregen> for this kind of game...yes
14:58:19  <peter1138> that's a bit much
14:58:32  <peter1138> what does it do, store code in there?
14:58:38  <amix> hello
14:58:41  <amix> how are you?
14:58:42  <smithj> hi
14:58:45  <Celestar> the question is: what can we do?
14:58:58  <Celestar> the question 2 is: how do I compile this CRAP :s
14:59:02  <amix> its snowing here
14:59:03  <amix> :)
14:59:25  <Celestar> define here?
14:59:34  <Tron_> compile what?
14:59:35  <amix> Oslo
14:59:37  <amix> Norway
14:59:38  <Celestar> Tron_: DX
14:59:45  <Tron_> DX?
14:59:51  <Tron_> DirectX?
14:59:55  <Celestar> google for IBM Open Data Explorer
15:00:13  <peter1138> Tron_: the extra data for town houses is used for eye-candy features, basically
15:00:20  <amix> i love IBM
15:00:21  <amix> :)
15:00:25  <Tron_> Celestar> I think 2GB are no longer Jaw-Dropping in 20 <--- i consider this much memory way over the top
15:00:44  <peter1138> we also have this extra data for vehicles and stations, but that can be stored off-map, fortunately
15:00:50  <Celestar> Tron_: well, I'm just wondering on how to store a 80GB-computation ...
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15:00:56  <Tron_> especially in contrast to the ottd map, which uses mere 32MB for this size
15:01:07  <Celestar> peter1138: why not store the eye-candy stuff off-map as well?
15:01:24  <hylje> :o
15:01:25  <peter1138> because town houses don't have off-map data
15:01:34  <Tron_> Celestar: you're doing numerical analysis on gazillion of data points on a compute cluster
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15:01:40  <Tron_> not run a game on a PC
15:01:44  <Celestar> peter1138: when last I looked, we were able to change that :P
15:02:02  <Celestar> Tron_: well, I bought an additional GB of memory for my laptop to play CIV IV
15:02:11  <peter1138> hmm
15:02:14  <peter1138> you could
15:02:14  <Celestar> and the CIV IV "huge" maps are about 160x160
15:02:38  <Zavior> Huge maps are
15:02:40  <Zavior> Big enough
15:02:46  <Zavior> And too tedios to play on :P
15:02:51  <Zavior> I once tried
15:03:01  <Zavior> I just had normal speed on..
15:03:08  <Zavior> The game ended before I could win
15:03:11  <Zavior> (conquest)
15:03:14  <peter1138> hmm
15:03:36  <peter1138> i suppose you could replace the town index of a house tile with a house index
15:03:40  <Celestar> Zavior: Huge Maps + Marathon game speed
15:03:44  <Celestar> peter1138: yes
15:03:46  <peter1138> but then you become limited in the number of houses
15:03:52  <Zavior> Celestar, yeah
15:04:05  <Zavior> Usually I just play on epic/continents/standard :)
15:04:08  <Celestar> peter1138: how limited? 2^32 ... that ought to be enough for every one
15:04:13  <peter1138> 32 bit index?
15:04:16  <peter1138> hmm
15:04:16  <Zavior> Struggling to beat emperor >_>
15:04:22  <CIA-1> maedhros * r7018 /branches/newhouses/newgrf_callbacks.h: [NewHouses] -Codechange: Update the comments for callbacks that have been implemented.
15:04:26  <peter1138> i suppose you could if you moved it all off-map
15:04:32  <Tron_> peter1138: what does a "newhouse" house store?
15:04:38  <Tron_> i can't imagine more than 4 bytes
15:04:40  <Celestar> Tron_: new things :P
15:04:50  <Tron_> that 4 billion/milliard combinations
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15:05:07  <Celestar> its 2^32 combos :P
15:05:41  <hylje> :o
15:06:08  <peter1138> hmm, 5 bits of trigger information, 5 bits of animation frame (this uses the lift bits) and apparently 8 bits of random data
15:06:12  <Tron_>  <Celestar> Tron_: well, I bought an additional GB of memory for my laptop to play CIV IV <--- they released a patch which made the game run quite a bit smoother
15:06:26  <Tron_> i'm very sure they're doing something wrong
15:06:26  <peter1138> hmm
15:06:39  <Belugas> tron, houses are using quite a lot of bits, in fact.  newgrf houses that is
15:06:46  <Celestar> Tron_: well yes, it only needs about 700MB now ...
15:06:57  <peter1138> the question is, do they need to... hmm
15:06:57  <Belugas> in fact, on all the 8 byttes used, only 4 or 5 bits are reamining free...
15:06:57  <Tron_> the graphics aren't that impressive to run bad on common hardware
15:07:11  <Celestar> Tron_: the game is python based .... :P
15:07:37  <Tron_> they should use Boo
15:08:00  <Celestar> Boo?
15:08:01  <Tron_> it avoids the main single most design flaw in Python
15:08:07  <Tron_> it has explicit typing
15:08:35  <Tron_> you can read pages of python code without getting a remote clue what it does
15:08:35  <hylje> civ4 is extensively moddable in py and xml
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15:08:53  <Tron_> because you don't and can't have a remote idea what gets put in there
15:08:59  <peter1138> hmm
15:09:02  <Celestar> does newhouses use m3?
15:09:20  <Celestar> the CIV4 modding is difficult because of the lack of documentation
15:09:21  <peter1138> yes
15:09:34  <Celestar> peter1138: so how many bits does newhouses add?
15:09:50  <peter1138> 14 i think
15:09:52  <Belugas> 1 byte and 6 remaining bits of extra
15:09:52  <Tron_> "Real men don't use manuals" (Title screen of one SNES (NES?) game)
15:09:57  <peter1138> extra to a byte and another byte
15:10:00  <Tron_> the game doesn't come with a manual
15:10:12  <peter1138> hmm
15:10:17  <Celestar> peter1138: what about the 6 bits we have left in m3?
15:10:30  <peter1138> all n64 games i've got show you how to hold the controller...
15:10:38  <Celestar> newhouses need 20(!!) additional bits?
15:10:49  <Tron_> do these 14 bits overrule the value in m4?
15:10:55  <Maedhros> Celestar: there's a list of what's being used here (temporarily):
15:11:05  <Celestar> Maedhros: ah thanks :)
15:11:29  <peter1138> that's what i was looking for :)(
15:12:21  <Celestar> Maedhros: ah .. what is this "random bits" stuff ?
15:12:36  <peter1138> randomizing data
15:12:45  <peter1138> for building variations
15:13:04  <Tron_> m7 0 and 1
15:13:12  <Tron_> aren't they directly correlated?
15:13:13  <Celestar> there are 256 variants of a house in there?
15:13:16  <Tron_> i.e. equal
15:13:24  <Celestar> Tron_: nope.
15:13:47  <Tron_> why choose a destination without moving?
15:13:57  <Tron_> why move when not knowing where to?
15:14:20  <peter1138> that'll save a bit :)
15:14:23  <Maedhros> Tron_: it's been like that since TTD, but it does seem redundant
15:14:53  * Celestar somehow doesn't like the Object<->Map Link via m2
15:14:54  <peter1138> question
15:15:00  <Tron_> hm
15:15:08  <Tron_> i just see m1 bit 7 used for this right now
15:15:17  <Celestar> "Could not fetch metadata for CD" uh huh
15:15:44  <Celestar> ... could have told you before
15:15:53  <Tron_> Celestar: you need some kind of link
15:16:08  <Celestar> Tron_: I know, but I am not sure whether this is best way to do it
15:16:11  <Tron_> well, you could put it in a TileIndex/Object map
15:16:40  <Celestar> for example
15:16:56  <Belugas> m3[6] will be used to add one bit to m4(house type) in order to have 511 total new houses types
15:17:01  <Tron_> this way you could pythonise the whole map
15:17:03  * Celestar votes for storing everything in a relational database :)
15:17:12  <Tron_> (everthing in Python is a hashmap)
15:17:18  <hylje> mm.. python
15:17:35  <peter1138> bah
15:17:35  <hylje> Celestar: sqlite!
15:17:36  <Belugas> file:///h:/OpenTTD/New_Houses/maparray_layout.html
15:17:37  <peter1138> customer :(
15:17:43  <peter1138> nice url ;p
15:17:44  <hylje> Belugas: AAA
15:17:50  <Celestar> Belugas: I have limited access to your H: drive
15:17:53  <Belugas> damsn....
15:17:54  <Belugas>
15:18:06  <Tron_>
15:18:14  <Belugas>
15:18:28  <hylje> python on planes
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15:19:21  <Tron_> this raises intersting questions: what do you want to store in the map?
15:19:30  <hylje> references
15:19:47  <Tron_> you don't need to if you use the TileIndex as reference
15:19:56  <Tron_> hash maps have a mean access of O(1)
15:20:00  <Tron_> for big values of 1
15:20:11  <Celestar> Tron_: TileType type; void *data;
15:20:26  <Tron_> for pathfinding you probably don't want to do a hash lookup per tile
15:20:48  <hylje> all performance-critical stuff should be shortcutted, yes
15:21:07  <Tron_> on the other hand the age of a house could very well be put /somewhere/
15:21:16  <Celestar> wtf ... what is the past tense of "to brake"
15:21:39  <Celestar> Tron_: for example in an object called "House"
15:21:41  <Tron_> though we don't have an explicit object list for houses, but that's just a minor detail
15:23:01  <Tron_> Celestar:, brake, click on the "i", choose "Konjugation/Deklination"
15:23:16  <Prof_Frink> Celestar: Braked.
15:23:38  <Tron_> hm, well, works just for german, bah
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15:23:44  <hylje> achtung
15:23:46  <Tron_> english only has ethymology
15:23:57  <Prof_Frink> 'Broke' is wrong, but I use it anyway.
15:24:17  <Prof_Frink> Euthymology? The study of eucalyptus toothpaste?
15:24:41  <Celestar> we could add an "House" object inside the "Town" object
15:24:58  <Maedhros> broke can be right too; it just depends on what you meant by brake ;)
15:25:57  <Prof_Frink> Maedhros: broke come from break, not brake.
15:26:28  * Maedhros looks in horror as his english language skills desert him
15:27:38  <Celestar> but ok .. lets see we extend stuff to 8 data bytes
15:28:15  <Tron_> maybe - just maybe, if you hit me really hard - you could persuade me to extend to 16 bytes
15:28:26  <Celestar> hm?
15:28:33  <Tron_> but >100 bytes per tile like Simutrans ... just over me dead, cold body
15:28:49  <Celestar> but what about having an TileIndex -> object map?
15:28:50  <hylje> go for 200 bytes per tile
15:29:07  <Celestar> what do we need 16 bytes for at the time being?
15:29:27  <Celestar> we are talking about 8 (plus type and height)
15:30:21  <Celestar> although I still vote for: byte type; byte height; uint64 data; but that is just me
15:30:49  <Tron_> 10 bytes is suboptimal
15:30:58  <Celestar> yeah
15:31:06  <Tron_> either 8 or 16
15:31:35  <Darkvater> 12:50 <@peter1138> Darkvater: fancy AI fixign? << yeah right. unless it crashes I don't really care
15:31:37  <Celestar> in memory, but on disk (and in file transfer) it matters little. then again, gzip does a nice job if we have 40 bits set to 0 at the end of each
15:32:01  <Celestar> uint64 data1; uint64 data2; :P
15:32:33  <Celestar> Tron_: so you would prefer 16 over 9 ?
15:32:38  <Tron_> Darkvater: if you are talking about the diff on the forum: looks a bit like random changes to me
15:33:07  <Tron_> in fact random and wrong changes
15:34:30  <Tron_> 116bytes per tile
15:34:40  <peter1138> hmm?
15:34:43  <Tron_> Simutrans
15:34:48  <peter1138> Darkvater: ah, well, it's totally busted...
15:34:55  <Tron_> so it's "only" 500MB for a 2kx2k map
15:35:04  <Darkvater> donnu what I am talking about
15:35:10  <Celestar> you are evading my question :P
15:35:20  <Tron_> what do you need 9 bytes for?
15:35:21  <peter1138> Belugas: there are two town triggers listed, why is there space for 6?
15:35:24  <Darkvater> if I were talking about the forum thingie I would first ask him to seperate the constant-changing and actual changes
15:35:46  <hylje> how far is the stacked tiles support
15:35:53  <Tron_> if you have a sensible reason to need 9 bytes, then ok, so be it
15:35:54  <hylje> ie. tiles top of each other
15:36:15  <Tron_> hylje: nil
15:36:21  <hylje> :<
15:36:27  <Celestar> Tron_: well, check the newhouses branch
15:36:37  <hylje> i wants subway! elevated rail!
15:37:01  <Celestar> ok so a map rewrite :P
15:37:01  <Belugas> peter1138, don't know yet. still searching the triggers, as you know :)  Thing is, that's exactly what the patch is using
15:37:03  <Maedhros> peter1138: because i was following ttdpatch's lead...
15:37:29  <Tron_> afk
15:37:30  <Darkvater> news from egladil ?
15:37:39  <Maedhros> in other words, no good reason unless Csaboka decides to add more for some reason ;)
15:37:56  <Celestar> I am really not sure what to make of the map rewrite idea :P
15:38:06  <Belugas> so, in other words, "reserved space"!
15:38:06  <peter1138> hmm
15:38:53  <peter1138> Celestar: so you want the whole map to be pointers?
15:38:59  <peter1138> with variable size data...
15:39:08  <Belugas> The answer is in asm files, i just doubt it is clearly expressed
15:39:15  <Celestar> peter1138: why not ... apart from performance ....
15:39:22  <peter1138> well, yes, performance :)
15:39:27  <peter1138> and imagine it on 64 bit machines...
15:39:31  <peter1138> the map would be the same size
15:39:35  <peter1138> then you'd need the actual data...
15:39:45  <Celestar> peter1138: 64 bit machines RARELY have a memory problem ...
15:39:53  <Celestar> (in ottd)
15:40:07  <Celestar> our map discussion is mostly savegame (i.e. network) related
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15:41:38  <Celestar> I wonder whether we could do stacked tiles in a better way than we "used to"
15:41:50  <peter1138> hmm, 16/32MB just of pointers for a large map
15:42:01  <peter1138> otoh, who cares, large maps are large anyway
15:42:08  <hylje> large map is laarge
15:42:13  <Celestar> well
15:42:20  <Belugas> there is one thing that did striked me recently, is the fact that there are some tile types that require really few bits, while others are just grabbing as much as they can
15:42:40  <peter1138> well a void tile doesn't need much data :)
15:42:43  <Celestar> Belugas: that's why I was thinking about the variable sized data.
15:42:50  <hylje> void tile? :o
15:43:00  <peter1138> but wasn't variable size data tried in the map branch?
15:43:01  <Belugas> yes, indeed, Celestar
15:43:04  <Celestar> the number of void tiles is rather limited
15:43:26  <Celestar> mostly it is MapX()+MapY()-1
15:43:40  <Celestar> peter1138: well kind of.
15:43:53  <peter1138> would you keep common data in the array or have it all shared out?
15:44:08  <peter1138> s/shared/passed/
15:44:31  <peter1138> hmm
15:44:43  <Celestar> I dunno. I still think a uint16 height; uint8 type; void *data; approach would work best.
15:45:24  <Celestar> "type" could have bit 7 set for "there is something above" and bit 6 for "there is something below:
15:45:58  <peter1138> 16 bit height?
15:46:18  <peter1138> i'd say 8 bit height is more than plenty...
15:46:23  <Hagbarddenstore> Hey all... Using OpenTTD Miniin and I would like to know how I make a rail useable by others...
15:46:24  <Celestar> 5 bits north corner 3 bits each for the other corners
15:46:24  <peter1138> unless you store it as is
15:46:33  <peter1138> ah, so it's not just height
15:46:43  <Sacro> Hagbarddenstore: check the Subsiduaries tab in patch options
15:46:54  <Celestar> uint16 geometrical_configuration;
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15:47:53  <Celestar> the question is, how much speed do we lose because of the indirection
15:48:16  <Celestar> (cache misses)
15:49:00  <Belugas> why not an hybrid system? critical data in a fixed size and pointer for other non crucial data
15:49:13  <Belugas> then, the fixed size is just typecasted
15:49:14  <Celestar> what IS critical data ...
15:49:27  <Belugas> ah...  that is something to be determined :)
15:50:05  <hylje> pathfinder
15:50:18  <Belugas> ex: owner, type of industry, rail type, signal
15:50:22  <Belugas> don't know, stuff like that
15:50:30  <Celestar> index in station array
15:51:10  <Celestar> or we move everything OOP and have classes :)
15:51:18  <Celestar> only .. I dunno C++
15:51:49  <Brianetta> Singaporekid is writing his subsidiaries patch to apply against MiniIN.  Does anybody else think that looks like admitting defeat?
15:52:06  <Celestar> ?
15:52:07  <peter1138> as it's nothing to do with singaporekid...
15:52:16  <Sacro> Brianetta: his...?
15:52:17  <Brianetta> Indeed
15:52:20  <Brianetta> wrong name
15:52:25  <Sacro> thought it was LordOfThePigs
15:52:28  <Brianetta> s/Singaporekid/LordOfThePigs/
15:52:40  <Sacro> Brianetta: impressive typo...
15:52:42  <Celestar> I still need reasons why not to merge the bridge branch :P
15:52:58  <Brianetta> Celestar: Reasons not to?
15:53:01  <Sacro> i see no reason for 101 different branches...
15:53:06  <peter1138> well the map stuff isn't sorted out yet
15:53:18  <Brianetta> This whole branch thing is the reason why I don't run a nightly
15:53:31  <Brianetta> but it's the chosen development method, for better or worse
15:53:37  <Celestar> peter1138: well, the bridge stuff does not add any bits, rather it frees some
15:53:43  <peter1138> ...
15:53:50  <peter1138> it does
15:54:00  <Celestar> Brianetta: if you have suggestions on how to do it better ... go ahead
15:54:06  <peter1138> well, ok, they were there anywhere, unusable
15:54:27  <Brianetta> Celestar: I'd just use the same method that the rest of the OSS community uses.  One trunk, and a bit of actual design.
15:54:36  <Hagbarddenstore> Well... I have bought a company so it's a subsiduarie of my head... but how do I create new companys? For the moment I have to create another client runnin...
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15:54:55  <peter1138> using the your company window, iirc
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15:54:59  <Sacro> Hagbarddenstore: i belive you click the coloured rectangle on the bottom bar
15:55:20  <Brianetta> I'd like to see shared rails in trunk (:
15:55:26  <Sacro> Brianetta: me too
15:55:33  <Brianetta> not subsidiaries, that seems just a bit of overkill
15:55:38  <Sacro> i can see the deathmatch game getting more interesting...
15:55:43  <Hagbarddenstore> Create, Merge and Administrate is greyish and not clickable... :/
15:56:19  <glx> only in network
15:56:43  <glx> or you are using an old miniin :)
15:56:46  <Brianetta> glx: only in network what?
15:56:49  <Hagbarddenstore> glx: ok
15:56:56  <Hagbarddenstore> Where to get the new one?
15:57:03  <Celestar> Brianetta: most of the OSS community does use branches ...
15:57:16  <Hagbarddenstore> glx: And I'm in network play.. :D
15:57:23  <Brianetta> Celestar: Citation, please
15:57:49  <Brianetta> and I won't accept a distribution of software products
15:57:49  <glx> Hagbarddenstore: in network game you can't create, merge or administrate subsidiaries
15:57:55  <Hagbarddenstore> glx: ohh
15:57:59  <Hagbarddenstore> ok
15:58:02  <Hagbarddenstore> will try single then
15:58:02  <peter1138> gcc
15:58:03  <Hagbarddenstore> later
15:58:24  <peter1138> glx: that's a strange restriction...
15:58:54  <Celestar> Brianetta: samba fwiw
15:58:57  <Brianetta> peter1138: If a player creates 7 extra subsidiaries, they DOS the rest of the world from the server
15:59:02  <peter1138> oh, yes
15:59:03  <peter1138> hehe
15:59:22  <Brianetta> gcc uses a release / dev branch
15:59:43  <Brianetta> as does Samba
16:00:04  <Brianetta> Samba does not, for example, have an AD improvements branch, a CIFS branch, etc
16:00:20  <Maedhros> gcc uses branches for major changes, eg tree-ssa
16:00:29  <Tron_> now for something completly different
16:00:46  <Tron_> a new zomg-features release would be nice
16:01:00  <Tron_> there's enough stuff piled up
16:01:03  <peter1138>
16:01:13  <Tron_> peter hacked tons of newgrf support
16:01:21  <peter1138> only release branches?
16:01:38  <Tron_> building on steep slopes
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16:01:57  <Sacro> Tron: isnt that MiniIN?
16:02:03  <Tron_> Sacro: what?
16:02:10  <Tron_> more options to control vehicles
16:02:24  <Sacro> Tron: MiniIN = zomg-features
16:02:27  <Brianetta> Wow, I'm glad I'm not on GCC's dev team.
16:02:30  <Tron_> guys, help me, my memory resembles a broken sieve
16:02:45  <Belugas> newcurrencies
16:02:47  <Brianetta> Tron: MiniIN is where user-submitted patches go to die.
16:02:48  <Celestar> Tron_: well .. what about the idea of storing all 4 corners in a tile ...
16:02:52  <Belugas> new widgets
16:02:55  <Belugas> tgp
16:03:00  <Tron_> right, of course
16:03:02  <peter1138> yeah, tgp
16:03:03  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
16:03:10  <Maedhros> elrails
16:03:13  * Sacro considers writing a few patches
16:03:16  <peter1138> and those wonderful new airports
16:03:17  <Tron_> though widgets is more like a internal technical detail
16:03:20  <peter1138> elrails, yes
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16:03:20  <Brianetta> figuratively speaking, of course
16:03:21  <Tron_> not directly user visible
16:03:26  <Brianetta> a minority do somehow make it
16:03:30  *** Turski [] has joined #openttd
16:03:39  <Tron_> though it makes using the gui system considerably less painful
16:03:50  *** LSky` [] has joined #openttd
16:03:52  <Belugas> agreed
16:04:02  <peter1138> i'd like to get the newgrf saveload stuff in for the next release
16:04:04  <Tron_> yeah, elrails
16:04:14  <Tron_> peter1138: hack it, hack it good!
16:04:26  <peter1138> i need to clear out the code duplication, heh
16:04:35  <Brianetta> mandatory wagon speed limits
16:04:45  <Brianetta> get rid of those pesky choices
16:05:23  <peter1138> hmm, last release was january...
16:05:28  <peter1138> was it this year or last? heh
16:05:38  <Tron_> ok
16:05:48  <Tron_> i have a reason for a flat map array instead an array of objects
16:06:05  <Tron_> for fun i tried to make a 4kx4k map in Simutrans
16:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, if people do not want speed limits, they should play without a newgrf that has them
16:06:18  <peter1138> OOM KILLER
16:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so remove that stupid "patch option"
16:06:34  <Tron_> that's like 2 yiggabytes
16:06:46  <Maedhros> going back to a slightly earlier conversation,
16:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yogibytes?
16:06:58  <Tron_> the map there consists of distinct objects
16:07:07  <Tron_> in ottd the malloc() would have simply failed
16:07:18  <peter1138> hmm
16:07:24  <Tron_> in Simutrans my box started swapping like there was no tomorrow
16:07:33  <peter1138> and then it would segfault when we don't bother checking malloc's return value ;)
16:07:34  <Tron_> because it allocated millions of individual tiles
16:08:09  <Tron_> peter1138: actually we have a check after mallocing the map
16:08:20  <peter1138> k
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16:08:25  <peter1138> in other places we don't :/
16:08:34  <Celestar> Tron_: so?
16:08:54  <Tron_> my box swapping 2gb memory isn't a pretty sight
16:09:20  <peter1138> i don't think our memory usage would become *that* big
16:09:56  <peter1138> otoh, the current forced memory conservation would easily change
16:10:14  <peter1138> "oh, we just add another byte here" ... for a boolean value
16:10:27  <hylje> heheh
16:10:47  * peter1138 remembers a patch a while ago that added a uint32 to store road age
16:11:03  <Tron_> peter1138: i bet Simutrans' tiles could be cut in half without limiting anything if somebody would have a deeper look
16:11:56  <Celestar> so lets say we stay with the current flat map?
16:12:19  <Tron_> i think it's not the top item on the priority list
16:12:29  <Tron_> having a nice release should be imo
16:12:33  <Celestar> hm?
16:12:52  <Tron_> map format
16:13:06  <peter1138> ok, how about we say these map-changing features should be post 0.5(.0)?
16:13:37  <Celestar> we need new features for 0.5.0
16:13:43  <peter1138> we have new features
16:13:47  <Celestar> for example bridges (which leave the map format untouched)
16:13:54  <Tron_> there's already enough stuff to justify a release
16:13:56  <peter1138> but we've not had a release for so long you've forgotten they're new :)
16:14:05  <Sacro> i want PBS back :(
16:14:18  <peter1138> and bridges don't leave the map format untouched
16:14:28  <Tron_> they pretty much fuck it
16:14:33  <peter1138> or has the _m[].extra stuff gone?
16:14:41  <Tron_> the whole concept a bridge works changes
16:14:53  <Tron_> it's just two bits
16:14:58  <Tron_> it could be moved elsewhere
16:15:22  <Celestar> so what now?
16:15:26  <Tron_> i just put it there because i was lazy and wanted a quick result to work with
16:16:01  <Tron_> electrified rails, map generator, airports, steep slopes, tons of newgrf stuff
16:16:12  <Tron_> if this doesn't justify a release i don't know what doe
16:16:13  <Tron_> s
16:16:40  <Tron_> last minor release was more than two months ago
16:16:47  <Hagbarddenstore> Is there a Linux version of miniin ?
16:16:48  <Tron_> last big release ... half a year?
16:16:53  <hylje> Hagbarddenstore: yes
16:16:58  <Hagbarddenstore> hylje: Neat...
16:17:03  <Celestar> so what is the problem with the brige branch?
16:17:05  <Hagbarddenstore> Kinda tired of wining it... :D
16:17:16  <hylje> Tron_: gnome goes half a year per release too
16:17:21  <Sacro> Hagbarddenstore: compile it yourself :p
16:17:27  <hylje> Hagbarddenstore: look at nightly repo or compile yourself
16:17:32  <Hagbarddenstore> Sacro: Meehhh
16:17:35  <Sacro> heh, please lets not try and join debians release cycle
16:17:42  <Hagbarddenstore> hylje: Yep...
16:17:47  <Celestar> Sacro: lol
16:18:05  <Hagbarddenstore> Sacro: The Ubuntu release cycle is kinda nice... 6 months..
16:18:14  <hylje> :>
16:18:17  <glx> Hagbarddenstore: it's available at the same place as win32 MiniIN
16:18:22  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: Or worse, windows release cycle
16:18:24  <hylje> Hagbarddenstore: they follow the gnome cycle
16:18:33  <hylje> Prof_Frink: AAAA! 5 years!
16:18:55  <Hagbarddenstore> glx: Well... Gotta get another from a bud... He has changed some things...
16:18:56  <hylje> slippery? i dont think so
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16:22:06  <Celestar> as no one seems to answer my question anyway, I'll head home
16:24:22  <Brianetta> Celestar: There is no reason
16:25:09  <peter1138> Celestar: 1) it needs the map array stuff sorting 2) it needs more testing in trunk before a release
16:25:36  <peter1138> imho
16:25:42  <peter1138> which is pretty humble
16:26:00  <Brianetta> There's no such thing as a humble opinion (:
16:26:59  <Celestar> 1) well I am open for suggestions, 2) we can't test it in trunk if it is not IN trunk
16:30:17  <Brianetta> like any branch (:
16:30:28  <Sacro> merge stuff into trunk
16:30:41  <Sacro> set up a few nightly servers... and bingo, testing will occur
16:31:36  <peter1138> Celestar: yes, but for 2 there is an anticipated release "soon"
16:32:40  <peter1138> for 1) i suggest the map stuff is discussed with people doing the newhouses stuff
16:33:41  <peter1138> in the various hidden irc channels or even that mailing list thing ...
16:34:46  <Celestar> when is a release_
16:35:53  <peter1138> hopefully RC1 end of November
16:36:22  <Sacro> release a beta WIP now
16:36:30  <Prof_Frink> Christmas Relesae!
16:36:37  <peter1138> Sacro: you have nightlies ffs :P
16:37:08  <Sacro> peter1138: i meant with added features from the other branches
16:37:42  <peter1138> bridges and utf8?
16:37:53  <Darkvater> a definite pre is that ALL saves before bridge-branch (eg 0.4.8) must load an upgrade perfectly with magic bridges
16:38:05  <Darkvater> without that, it'll never get it
16:38:14  <Sacro> peter1138: yep, sounds good, maybe newhouses as well
16:38:37  <Darkvater> Tron_: you have unsubscribed from maillist haven't you?
16:38:39  <Belugas> no, newhouses are not ready, nor tested enough
16:38:48  <Sacro> Darkvater: yeah, thats a major prerequesite
16:39:04  <Sacro> Belugas: not even a WIP alpha/beta?
16:39:14  <peter1138> compile it yourself? ;p
16:39:20  <Belugas> indeed :)
16:39:39  <Sacro> peter1138: if i could merge MiniIN + bridges + newhouses i would
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16:40:52  <CIA-1> maedhros * r7019 /branches/newhouses/ (town_cmd.c town_map.h): [NewHouses] -Codechange: Unify the bits for "lift has destination" and "lift is moving", since they both did the same thing.
16:46:23  <Celestar> ok then lets release and merge some stuff
16:46:26  <Celestar> this is getting ugly
16:46:40  <Sacro> I FOUND A BUG :D
16:46:47  <Sacro> wooyay
16:46:47  <peter1138> lies, you made it up
16:46:49  * Sacro dances
16:47:08  <Sacro> if you tell an aircraft to go to depot whilst its en-route to the runway, it will take off and then re-land
16:48:00  <peter1138> otoh
16:48:02  <peter1138> the AI needs fixign
16:48:05  <peter1138> FIXING
16:48:09  <peter1138> damn stupid keyboard
16:48:36  <Prof_Frink> peter1138: your typign needs fixign
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16:54:37  <Naksu> sounds like you've been playing kingdom of loathing
16:54:58  <hylje> :o
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17:00:00  <Celestar> then release RC1 already ..
17:00:02  <Celestar> :P
17:00:30  * peter1138 wonders if Celestar is still on the list too
17:01:38  <Sacro> your name will also go on ze list...
17:01:49  <Eddi|zuHause> why bother having a list if not everybody that matters is on it?
17:02:05  <peter1138> well
17:02:07  <peter1138> i'm on the list
17:02:13  <peter1138> so that's alright then
17:02:14  * peter1138 hides
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17:04:05  <Brianetta> I think the AI should be repaired or carefully removed.
17:09:41  <Sacro> i thought the GPMI lot where doing new ai?
17:09:45  *** Zr40 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:10:46  <Brianetta> The what lot?
17:11:28  <Sacro> openttd.gpmi ?
17:12:04  <Brianetta> Are you asking me or telling me?
17:13:15  <CIA-1> glx * r7020 /trunk/ai/default/default.c: -Fix r6047: AI tries to delete stations that are 'in use' because FOR_ALL_STATIONS skips invalid stations
17:13:23  <Sacro> Brianetta: im not entirely sure now
17:14:04  <Brianetta> Well, as soon as this 0.5 mijobberylark comes out, I'll be grinding into pelvic-thrusting dedicated server action.
17:14:15  *** dp-_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:14:20  <Sacro> thats an interesting word
17:14:29  <Brianetta> Pelvic?
17:14:32  <Sacro> nooo
17:14:37  <Sacro> mijobberylark
17:14:51  <Brianetta> That's a doojamaflip whatjamacallit.
17:15:04  <Brianetta> Metasyntactic variable, yes.
17:15:12  <Sacro> ahh... now it all makes sense *scratches head*
17:15:48  <Brianetta> It's bound to be on the Wikipedia
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17:46:26  <Sacro> BobingAbout!
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18:18:41  <BobingAbout> hi
18:19:03  <Sacro> BobingAbout!
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18:21:03  <BobingAbout> ji
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18:26:44  <Tron_> glx: does this solve the "delete used stations" problem or just a part of it?
18:27:20  <BobingAbout> erm, what?
18:27:31  <Tron_> [18:13:15] <CIA-1> glx * r7020 /trunk/ai/default/default.c: -Fix r6047: AI tries to delete stations that are 'in use' because FOR_ALL_STATIONS skips invalid stations
18:29:04  <glx> yes
18:29:43  <BobingAbout> iggy
18:31:06  <Tron_> very good
18:31:30  <glx> also fix "station_cmd.c:2363: DestroyRoadStop: Assertion `rs->num_vehicles == 0' failed."
18:31:51  <amix> i have just rated openttd as the best SDL multiplayer game
18:31:59  <amix> of 2006
18:32:15  <amix> good luck with the project
18:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but openttd uses DirectX ;)
18:32:28  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: lol
18:32:43  <glx> only for music
18:32:44  <amix> not on morphos
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18:37:24  <Hagbarddenstore> Eddi|zuHause: Uhm... It's using SDL on my pc...
18:37:27  <amix> -4C and snow outside
18:37:28  <amix> ;P
18:37:38  <Hagbarddenstore> I CAN try to use DirectX... :D:D:D
18:37:44  <Hagbarddenstore> I == it*
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18:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Hagbarddenstore: don't make me explain the joke, please...
18:38:21  <Hagbarddenstore> Eddi|zuHause: Please do. :D
18:38:27  <amix> will someone create a dessert server in 20mins?
18:38:37  <amix> :)
18:38:42  <Hagbarddenstore> amix: Dessert? :S
18:38:50  <Hagbarddenstore> Temperate is much better. :D
18:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> dessert, as in pie with cream?
18:38:54  <Hagbarddenstore> Or Snow... :D
18:39:06  <amix> desert
18:39:08  <Hagbarddenstore> Desert
18:39:09  <amix> ?
18:39:11  <Hagbarddenstore> Hmm..
18:39:14  <amix> yes
18:39:20  <amix> gfx is the best there
18:39:25  <smeding> doesn't the waiter usually serve dessert
18:39:25  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, there's an idea ;)
18:39:27  <smeding> :>
18:39:46  <amix> the toy levels arent to much used
18:39:48  <amix> :D
18:39:59  <smeding> toyland is evil
18:40:11  <amix> evil?
18:40:34  <Hagbarddenstore> Yep
18:40:38  <Hagbarddenstore> Evuuuuul
18:40:50  <amix> never played in toyland
18:42:39  <Sacro> :o[1].jpg
18:42:41  * Sacro cries
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19:00:18  <jez> omg no :-(
19:00:47  <jez> one survived to tell the tale
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19:02:59  <peter1138> it must be a draw
19:03:15  <BobingAbout> how can you have -214783648%?
19:03:35  <peter1138> if you're president bush...
19:03:54  *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:03:55  <jez> BobingAbout: that's a valid percentile
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19:10:30  <amix> oki
19:10:45  <amix> openttd now
19:10:46  <amix> :)
19:22:16  <peter1138> i just remembered more features for the feature list
19:22:20  <peter1138> though they are newgrf related
19:22:58  <CaptObvious> someone should redo TTD with all of the OpenTTD enhancements and modern-day graphics
19:23:16  <CaptObvious> although I do like how TTD is so portable - I carry it round with me on a USB key
19:23:38  <CaptObvious> so if I'm somewhere with a computer and bored I can play :)
19:26:42  <Sacro> CaptObvious: im confused...
19:27:28  <CaptObvious> you're confused?
19:27:32  <CaptObvious> why?
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19:29:09  <BobingAbout> he's sacro, he's always confused
19:29:20  <CaptObvious> okay
19:29:27  <Sacro> CaptObvious: redo TTD with OpenTTD enhancments...
19:29:33  <Sacro> why not just use OpenTTD?
19:29:39  <BobingAbout> lol
19:29:56  <peter1138> seems a strange request
19:30:28  <BobingAbout> i have a question
19:30:45  <Sacro> BobingAbout: oh dear
19:30:53  <Sacro> BobingAbout: dont scratch it and go see a doctor
19:31:12  <BobingAbout> its newsignals related
19:31:41  <Sacro> just ask it
19:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> don't eat yellow snow ;)
19:31:54  <BobingAbout> well, the first question is, should i stick to 1 prite per signal, or, should i split it in 2, and have 1 sprite for the signal itself, and a second for the aspect lights?
19:31:56  <BobingAbout> lol
19:32:07  <CaptObvious> Sacro: redo TTD with OpenTTD enhancements AND modern-day graphics
19:32:19  <peter1138> use a tile layout
19:32:21  <BobingAbout> thats basicly openttd
19:32:29  <Sacro> CaptObvious: so just add modern day graphics to OpenTTD?
19:32:32  <BobingAbout> tile layout, what?
19:32:51  <peter1138> tile layout == any number of sprites and any position without the tile
19:33:02  <peter1138> that means it can be in front, behind, on top, whatever
19:33:09  <peter1138> that would give you signal gantries
19:33:13  <CaptObvious> Sacro: yes, but an open-source community can't do that well
19:33:32  <Sacro> peter1138: that was the word i was looking for... gantry
19:33:42  <Sacro> CaptObvious: who says?
19:33:45  <BobingAbout> i don't know that word
19:34:45  <peter1138>
19:35:33  <Sacro> peter1138: mmmmm sexy
19:35:42  <BobingAbout> hmmm
19:36:21  <Sacro> thats a nice train
19:36:25  <BobingAbout> looks nice, but, i don't see what effect that would have in OTTD really...
19:37:17  <Sacro> BobingAbout: realism... and it looks cool
19:37:36  <peter1138> ...
19:37:40  <peter1138> it's visual
19:37:48  <BobingAbout> couldn't you just make that all 1 sprite?
19:37:49  <peter1138> you wanted it to be "like newstations"
19:37:54  <BobingAbout> lol
19:37:55  <peter1138> newstations is totally visual only
19:37:58  <Sacro> peter1138: :)
19:38:05  <peter1138> if you're adding a feature, you might as well make it look pretty too
19:38:18  <peter1138> BobingAbout: no, because you need things in front of and behind trains
19:38:24  <BobingAbout> i'll probably need more help
19:38:47  <peter1138> Sacro: mmm
19:38:53  <peter1138> it needs more weathering though
19:39:18  <peter1138> not enough dirt anywhere
19:39:26  <peter1138> not any in fact
19:39:42  <Sacro> i might have to spend my next years student loan on hornby stuff...
19:39:51  <CaptObvious> Sacro: have you ever seen 3d graphics done well by an open source community?
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19:40:06  <CaptObvious> to the standard of Auran Trainz for example
19:40:09  <CaptObvious> or MS train sim
19:40:25  <Sacro> CaptObvious: yes
19:40:32  <CaptObvious> I haven't.
19:40:36  <CaptObvious> it always looks sucky
19:42:56  <Sacro> well quite a lot of the OpenTTD ones are amazing
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19:44:08  <peter1138> warsow looks pretty nice
19:44:14  <peter1138> but that's a different style of game
19:44:36  <peter1138> hmm, dunno if that's OS anyway :)
19:44:48  <Sacro> bbs, pizza time :)
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19:59:29  <Sacro>  back
19:59:56  <Sacro> BobingAbout: ping
20:00:33  <BobingAbout> pong
20:02:10  <Sacro> BobingAbout: im in a newsignal kinda mood
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20:15:01  <hylje>
20:16:33  <Wolf01> lol
20:18:38  *** dp-_ [] has joined #openttd
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20:24:08  <peter1138> o_O
20:25:27  *** dp- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:27:02  <SpComb> indeed
20:27:19  <SpComb> it looks like a oversized mouse tbh
20:27:28  <SpComb> oversized, stoned mouse
20:28:40  <Sacro> SpComb: you dont see many of them around
20:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it looks pretty overphotoshopped...
20:33:40  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: have you never seen a cat do that before?
20:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not the point ;)
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20:34:24  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: i think thats entirely the point :p
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20:38:01  <Darkvater> whee, finally back for the day :)
20:38:25  <Sacro> hey Darkvater
20:38:29  <Darkvater> ola
20:39:01  <Sacro> Hej
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20:42:13  <Brianetta> Monorail cats area pest.
20:42:17  <Brianetta> are a
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20:42:39  <Sacro> Brianetta: yes, though you could just divert the line
20:43:47  * peter1138 started a 1 company ukrs game
20:43:50  <peter1138> 512x512 map
20:43:54  <peter1138> wonder how that'll go
20:44:06  <Sacro> eh?
20:44:10  <Sacro> nightly?
20:44:21  <Sacro> 1 company ><
20:44:21  <Darkvater> lol
20:44:29  * Sacro s head explodes
20:44:30  <Darkvater> I checked out ttdpatch when I wanted to check out openttd
20:44:37  <peter1138> close
20:44:39  <Darkvater> I don't know if it's such a good idea to do coding tonight
20:45:05  <Belugas> depends how many lines you want to write, Darkvater ;)
20:45:06  <CaptObvious> do you know what would rock?  a 4x speed OpenTTD game
20:45:11  <CaptObvious> not 4 times the speed now
20:45:17  <Darkvater> hehe
20:45:22  <CaptObvious> I mean 4 game days to 1 real day
20:45:31  <Darkvater> ok, try 2
20:45:31  <CaptObvious> or maybe a bit faster
20:45:44  <CaptObvious> and make rails and stations take time to build
20:45:55  <Sacro> CaptObvious: check out Sacro's daylength patch
20:45:57  <peter1138> that's a bit silly
20:46:02  <Sacro> (mainly written by Wolf01!)
20:46:12  <CaptObvious> peter1138: no it's not, it'd make OpenTTD into a persistent world game
20:46:19  <peter1138> 50 years would take 12.5 years...
20:46:20  <peter1138> heh
20:46:30  <CaptObvious> yeah, maybe a bit faster :P
20:46:33  <peter1138> you could pass the game on to your children
20:46:41  <CaptObvious> maybe make a game last 3 months or something like that
20:46:45  <Sacro> peter1138: that'd be ace
20:46:51  <CaptObvious> haha
20:46:54  <Sacro> CaptObvious: daylength 32x does that
20:46:56  <CaptObvious> pass the company down to your children
20:47:02  <Sacro> realtime OpenTTD
20:47:11  <hylje> :
20:47:12  <hylje> D
20:47:22  <Sacro> hylje: your head seems to be skewed
20:47:24  <CaptObvious> but does it make it take time to build the tracks and buy stuff?
20:47:32  <hylje> Sacro: no its not
20:47:33  <CaptObvious> otherwise it's just a really long normal game
20:47:34  <hylje> :
20:47:35  <hylje> )
20:48:02  * Sacro pushes hylje's eyes and mouth back together
20:48:09  <hylje> )
20:48:09  <hylje> :
20:48:16  <Sacro> bah... too far
20:48:41  <Sacro> Your openttd.grf file is corrupted or missing! :(
20:49:35  <peter1138> well update it then
20:50:22  <Sacro> done so
20:53:18  <CIA-1> egladil * r7021 /branches/32bpp/ (build_vehicle_gui.c depot_gui.c gfx.c graph_gui.c main_gui.c): [32bpp] -Replace some more draw calls.
20:54:27  <Darkvater> egladil is back \o/
20:55:04  <Sacro> yay \o/ as is KUDr
20:55:10  <Sacro> even Celestar
20:55:14  <hylje> yayy
20:55:20  <hylje> and we has cia uno
20:55:21  <Sacro> oh noes... a hylje
20:55:28  <hylje> mwahah
20:55:33  <hylje> i was never away
20:55:36  <hylje> so i cant be back
20:55:43  <egladil> it's only one week since my last commit. you can hardly call that being away, can you?
20:56:10  <hylje> its a long time if you wait
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20:58:57  <Darkvater> egladil: one week is a long time when one waits every day for some activity :)
20:59:01  <egladil> ^^
20:59:04  <Darkvater> egladil: can you give an update on the progress?
21:00:03  <egladil> hmm
21:00:23  <peter1138> erm
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21:00:27  <peter1138> you are not me
21:00:35  <Darkvater> eh?
21:00:43  <peter1138> "hmm" is my trademark
21:00:46  <hylje> hmm
21:00:55  <peter1138> :(
21:01:02  <hylje> wut
21:01:08  <Darkvater> heh
21:01:14  <Darkvater> I thought 'heh' was your trademark
21:01:20  <peter1138> hmm
21:01:21  <peter1138> hewh
21:01:23  <peter1138> heh
21:01:26  <hylje> hmm heh
21:01:28  <egladil> i put in the 32bpp sprite loader earlier by request of some of the artist, and now i'm back to doing the slow and boring work of making every sprite drawing call 32bpp aware
21:01:29  <Darkvater> but you failed to enforce it and now I'm stuck to it as well L/
21:01:30  <peter1138> bleh :P
21:01:41  <Belugas> peter1138 grabbed every h* mouth noises
21:02:00  <peter1138> you know
21:02:04  <Darkvater> egladil: I wonder...
21:02:10  <peter1138> our fields are distinctly lacking in sheep
21:02:17  <peter1138> yet i hear them all the time
21:02:27  <egladil> Darkvater: about?
21:03:11  <Darkvater> I wonder if this conversion cannot be done 'invisibly'
21:03:21  <Darkvater> right now you have to go change every drawsprite routine
21:03:29  *** DJ_Mirage [] has quit [Quit:]
21:03:43  <Darkvater> what if you just allow the | PALETTE_CRASH and handle that inside DrawSprite?
21:04:10  <CaptObvious> you know what the most useful feature ever would be?
21:04:21  <CaptObvious> an easier way to convert trains over from rail-monorail-maglev
21:04:33  <Sacro> CaptObvious: to what?
21:04:35  <Darkvater> or for example the CONVHINT_NOHINT parameter that goes with each call where you have no player-colours
21:04:47  <Darkvater> just create a seperate function for that, or call that  normal DrawSprite
21:05:13  <peter1138> to SKYTRAIN
21:05:28  <CaptObvious> Sacro: from rail to monorail to maglev
21:05:28  <Darkvater> I know I might or should've come up with this sooner, but it seems that 32bpp exposes too much of its internals outside
21:05:39  <Darkvater> how am I ever going to remember
21:05:42  *** dp-_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:05:48  <Darkvater> 267	  DM_INIT(mode);  268	  269	  if (v->vehstatus & VS_CRASHED) {  270	    DM_GRAYSCALED(mode);  271	  } else {  272	    DM_PLAYERCOLOURS(mode, GetVehiclePalette(v));  273	  }
21:05:54  <Darkvater> for a DrawSprite?
21:06:07  <egladil> handling the PALETTE_CRASH inside DrawSprite would just be an ugly way to get away with less work
21:06:26  <Sacro> egladil: but its less work right... ? :)
21:06:46  <egladil> and gives really ugly code
21:07:06  <Sacro> it'll blend in with the rest of the ugly code
21:07:12  *** dp- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:07:13  <CaptObvious> ouch, burn
21:07:19  * Sacro hides
21:07:47  <Darkvater> it was just an idea, thought it would ease up development
21:07:48  * peter1138 notices an oddity with the client list window
21:07:49  *** Trenskow [~outlet@] has joined #openttd
21:07:59  <peter1138> it's the only one that has a mouse hover effect
21:08:00  *** Trenskow [~outlet@] has quit []
21:08:24  <Darkvater> so but ok, you're the expert; what is the real status, besides converting DrawSprite?
21:08:28  <egladil> Darkvater:  i thought about doing it like that first, but came to the conclusion that it would be better to do a proper solution
21:08:35  <Darkvater> egladil: would it be in some kind of a finished state after that?
21:09:15  *** Nigel [~Nigel@] has joined #openttd
21:09:43  * peter1138 ponders 'accidentally' merging utf8
21:10:08  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: you're around?
21:10:19  <glx> hmm does utf8 input work?
21:10:27  <egladil> the only things except for that is the new zoom levels and a proper way of telling the game to load 32bpp graphics (doing it in newgrf doesn't feel right)
21:10:33  <peter1138> why wouldn't it?
21:11:01  <CaptObvious> yes.  smooth zooming would be nice
21:11:05  <egladil> but i reserve the right to have forgotten something :)
21:11:26  <CaptObvious> I often find myself looking for a zoom level between max and medium
21:11:47  <Darkvater> XeryusTC: donnu where I would be
21:12:01  <XeryusTC> with your gf?
21:12:13  * Darkvater checks...nop
21:13:28  <LSky`> how can one set a national flag for ones server in the game lobby?
21:13:45  <LSky`> i see every single server have this weird blue-ish flag except for a french one?
21:13:54  <glx> peter1138: '?' are displayed in input box when I set my keyboard for russian or greek
21:14:16  <Darkvater> LSky`: you only have a few choices
21:14:38  <Darkvater> LSky`: english, german, french, any in the start server window
21:14:46  <LSky`> oh its the language?
21:14:57  <LSky`> thats a bit confusing :\
21:14:59  <XeryusTC> anyway Darkvater, there are 2 problems with the new chat
21:16:00  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7022 /trunk/ (11 files):
21:16:00  <CIA-1> -Fix [FS#292]: Properly guard against viewing company-sensitive information from
21:16:00  <CIA-1>  invalid players (eg spectators) which could lead to crashes.
21:16:52  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: care to listen?
21:17:01  <Darkvater> XeryusTC: so are you going to tell me or do I have to come over and beat it out from you?
21:17:21  <XeryusTC> i aint going to tell you if you dont show you're listening ;)
21:17:23  <XeryusTC> anyway:
21:17:44  <Darkvater> egladil: There have been some requests to document the sprite-internals of 32bpp. Could you do this after the majority of the work has been done?
21:17:58  <XeryusTC> 1) there are questionmarks in front of every chat line in the console
21:18:10  <Darkvater> console is stupid, yes
21:19:14  <XeryusTC> 2) ottd changes the chat method automaticly to team when someone is in your company
21:19:16  <egladil> Darkvater: you mean like the file format and stuff like that, or how the blitter works, or something else?
21:19:24  <XeryusTC> which presents a problem with #openttdcoop
21:19:51  <XeryusTC> as the autopilot also is an irc bridge, which cant read team messages
21:20:24  <Darkvater> egladil: file format, sprite-buildup (eg where are the recolour bits if any, etc.) so an outsider would be able to decode "our" sprites and know what to do with them to get them working in their own program
21:20:42  <Darkvater> XeryusTC: I am NOT going to fix the chat for an external script
21:20:49  <egladil> ok
21:21:01  <egladil> well, i suppose i could (and even should) do that
21:21:10  <Darkvater> I am however willing to add a window where you can set up what sort of message should be sent by default when you press 'enter'
21:21:21  <Darkvater> egladil: should is a better word :)
21:21:25  <Darkvater> but it would be great
21:21:38  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: ok, but it also makes it harder to talk in coopetition, where you talk to your team mate(s) via teamspeak, and talk to the other team by chat
21:21:53  <XeryusTC> which means you also chat to team by default
21:22:25  <Darkvater> 22:21 <@Darkvater> I am however willing to add a window where you can set up what sort of message should be sent by default when you press 'enter'
21:22:39  <XeryusTC> you could make a simple patch setting to switch the auto-speak-to-team ;)
21:22:43  <XeryusTC> no need for an extra window
21:23:18  <Darkvater> well the extra window would also be an ingame chat-history if all goes well
21:23:24  <peter1138> glx: should probably check... it was working previously
21:23:28  <hylje> also
21:23:34  <hylje> dont change the default on the fly
21:23:41  <hylje> set it at jointime
21:23:51  <Darkvater> standard Warcraft3 behaviour, go complain to Blizzard :)
21:24:01  <XeryusTC> no, we complain to you
21:24:07  <hylje> wc3 doesnt support on-the-fly join :p
21:24:09  <XeryusTC> OTTD has nothing to do with blizzard
21:24:18  <hylje> so the case is a bit different
21:25:13  <Darkvater> anyways, where was I... how to get rid of the '?' in the console... the easiest solution would be to put the strings to another buffer and send that to the console... or treat the
21:25:17  <Darkvater> hmm...
21:25:24  <Darkvater> XeryusTC: it has everything to do with blizzard :)
21:25:42  <XeryusTC> Darkvater: why isnt ottd sponsored by blizzard then?
21:25:49  <Darkvater> have you ever heard the chilling arctic windows at the top of surging mountain-tops your trains can barely cope with?
21:25:53  <Darkvater> it's blizzard all right
21:26:23  <XeryusTC> that's just lame :P
21:26:35  <peter1138> oh
21:26:54  <peter1138> wondered why i had loads of language errors
21:26:59  <peter1138> in the utf8 branch
21:27:09  <peter1138> 's cos i'm compiling unfinished too o_O
21:27:15  <Darkvater> :)
21:29:34  <Wolf01> bye
21:29:37  *** Wolf01 [] has quit []
21:29:52  <Darkvater> windows?
21:29:53  <Darkvater> wtf
21:29:59  <Darkvater> winds
21:30:25  <peter1138> hmm?
21:30:29  <peter1138> ohh
21:30:30  <peter1138> hehe
21:30:37  <Darkvater> "heard the chilling arctic windows at the top"
21:31:00  <Darkvater> so peter1138, how about that accident? :)
21:31:07  <peter1138> that's a strange question...
21:31:10  <peter1138> er, in the forum
21:31:15  <peter1138> "Can the old scenarios and save games of OTTD 0.4.8 and the Nightly build ones be used with the new OTTD 0.5 version?"
21:31:18  <peter1138> accident?
21:31:28  <peter1138> ohhh
21:31:29  <peter1138> yes
21:31:30  <peter1138> hmm
21:31:33  <Darkvater> he
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21:32:26  <peter1138> glx: works for me
21:32:41  <glx> should be windows then :)
21:34:55  <peter1138> otoh
21:35:16  <peter1138> hmm
21:36:09  <peter1138> is the savegame name box supposed to be raised instead of inset?
21:36:57  <peter1138> MAJOR BUG!
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21:40:18  <peter1138> also
21:40:20  <peter1138> re 0.5.0
21:40:34  <peter1138> will it have any bugs?
21:40:50  <Sacro> anyone in here ever used komplett/
21:41:28  *** dp-__ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:41:33  <Darkvater> peter1138: hehe
21:44:31  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
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21:46:19  *** Cirana [] has quit []
21:46:25  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7023 /trunk/main_gui.c:
21:46:25  <CIA-1> -Fix: Pressing F1 in scenario editor did not work because the keypress event was sent
21:46:25  <CIA-1>  twice. due to e->we.keypress.cont not being set to false. Also indent the switch
21:46:25  <CIA-1>  statements for some coding style bonus points.
21:49:42  *** BJH2 [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]]
21:51:01  <CIA-1> egladil * r7024 /branches/32bpp/ (90 files in 5 dirs): [32bpp] -Sync r6800:6900 from trunk.
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22:02:56  <Darkvater> !(a|b) | !c
22:02:58  <Darkvater> is the same as
22:03:07  <Darkvater> c & (a|b)
22:03:08  <Darkvater> right?
22:03:27  * Darkvater loves boolean expressions :)
22:08:39  <Sacro> Darkvater: no
22:08:49  <Sacro> oh... err... maybe
22:09:05  <Sacro> yes. tis de morgans theorem
22:09:21  *** ChrisM87 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:09:26  <Darkvater> yeah, loving it :)
22:09:34  <Zr40_> Darkvater: no. they're not the same
22:09:44  <Darkvater> when I get too confused I just draw out some boolean tables to make sure
22:09:46  <Darkvater> Zr40_: why?
22:10:42  <Sacro> hmm, it might be !(c & (a|b))
22:10:48  <Zr40_> the first one is an XOR, the second one an AND
22:11:29  <Zr40_> for the comparison, (a|b) can be simplified to x
22:11:42  <Zr40_> so it's !x | !c being compared to x & c
22:12:01  <Darkvater> oops, sorry it should be !(x & (a|b))
22:12:12  <Darkvater> but I already removed the leading ! as it wasn't needed for my purposes ;)
22:12:33  <Zr40_> which one should be that? the first one or the second one?
22:12:38  <Darkvater> !x|!c == !(a&b)
22:12:46  <Darkvater> eh x and c
22:13:18  <Darkvater> sorry for the confusion Zr40_, you were right
22:14:23  <Zr40_> !x|!c == !(x&c) is true (:P)
22:14:52  <Darkvater> Celestar: ping
22:15:55  <CIA-1> egladil * r7025 /branches/32bpp/ (107 files in 6 dirs): [32bpp] -Sync r6900:7000 from trunk.
22:18:14  *** Zr40_ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:22:21  <CIA-1> miham * r7026 /trunk/lang/ (norwegian.txt portuguese.txt spanish.txt):
22:22:21  <CIA-1> WebTranslator2 update to 2006-10-31 23:21:44
22:22:21  <CIA-1> norwegian - 4 fixed by brygge_2 (4)
22:22:21  <CIA-1> portuguese - 7 fixed by izhirahider (7)
22:22:21  <CIA-1> spanish - 2 fixed by eusebio (2)
22:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> is there any kind of regularity involved with those language updates?
22:23:59  <peter1138> yeah... when translators translate
22:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the timing always seems absolutely random
22:24:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, you could easily set up a cron job to do that 15 minutes before the nightly
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22:26:04  *** TinoM| [] has joined #openttd
22:26:33  <peter1138> hmm, we need scrollable dropdown lists :/
22:27:03  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
22:28:19  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: its whenever MiHaMiX remembers
22:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> which is exactly the point of a cron job, you can forget about it
22:28:56  <peter1138> & 2.png
22:29:08  <Sacro> freetype?
22:29:29  <Darkvater> peter1138: you need a bigger window ^^
22:29:30  <peter1138> yeah
22:30:01  <peter1138> buy me a faster pc ;p
22:30:19  <Darkvater> :)
22:30:30  <peter1138> nah
22:30:34  <peter1138> larger windows aren't a problem
22:30:38  <peter1138> but 640x480 is the default...
22:30:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the font looks a little strange
22:31:01  <Darkvater> ok RFC: in the scenario editor when the artist builds roads/bridges/tunnels should they always be OWNER_NONE or depending to the distance to the town, become owned by said town?
22:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> town owned sounds right
22:31:46  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause: it's tahoma bold, and is not necessary
22:31:48  *** TinoM [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:32:54  <Eddi|zuHause> in the scenario editor, is there a way to prepare land to be owned by the company that joins the game?
22:33:47  <Darkvater> no
22:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i always missed that in TTO, when i was preparing land for tracks, and by the time i could afford to place them, the cities ate up all the space
22:36:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i would then officially classify this as a feature request
22:36:49  <Darkvater> then I will officially point you to
22:37:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i was about to go there :)
22:39:45  <Darkvater> peter1138: yes some kind of a scrollbox would be nice for dropdowns...yet another widget-rewrite :)
22:40:00  <peter1138> argh :P
22:40:24  <peter1138> well not really, dropdowns are already standard windows with a couple of widgets
22:40:27  <peter1138> hmm
22:40:34  * peter1138 ponders
22:40:42  <Darkvater> well it still needs extra code
22:40:44  <peter1138> yes
22:41:08  * peter1138 tries it ;)
22:41:25  <Darkvater> I would think about something along the lines of a a ListBox with built-in or attached scroller (needed anyways) and a little bit of special coating
22:41:36  <Darkvater> peter1138: try resizing the openttd window while you have a dropdown active :)
22:41:48  <Darkvater> gets you a cool effect on centred windows
22:43:14  <peter1138> hmm, not for me
22:43:26  <peter1138> the whole thing goes black until i release :(
22:43:28  <Sacro> :O openttd in vb :D
22:43:44  <Darkvater> and when you release?
22:43:47  <glx> peter1138: I forgot to set fonts in openttd.cfg :P
22:43:53  <peter1138> then stuff has just moved...
22:43:57  <Darkvater> for me the window moved but the dropdown stayed at the same position :P
22:43:58  <peter1138> glx: so no glyphs...
22:44:05  <peter1138> ah
22:44:08  <peter1138> yes
22:44:34  <peter1138> you want me to fix that too? :P
22:45:00  <Darkvater> well if you are really intent on fixing the dropdown :)
22:45:02  <Darkvater> but...
22:45:16  <Darkvater> the scrollbar-attachment to a widget would be top priority
22:45:35  <Darkvater> either by mandating it is the next widget in the widget array (suboptimal idea)
22:45:50  <peter1138> any widget or just the matrix?
22:45:52  <glx> peter1138: works with sdl but doesn't work without
22:46:04  <Darkvater> or by cramping the scroller-id into wi->data, but this would only apply to special widgets, like WWT_MATRIX ( eg WWT_LISTBOX)
22:46:07  <glx> anyway you can't test it yourself :)
22:46:24  <Darkvater> peter1138: well you only need scrollers for matrix-type widgets
22:46:30  <Darkvater> I doubt a pushbutton would have need for it
22:46:33  <peter1138> and for the file list...
22:46:41  <peter1138> which isn't a matrixc
22:46:41  <Darkvater> that is basically also a MATRIX
22:46:42  <peter1138> -c
22:46:49  <Darkvater> technically it is
22:46:58  <Darkvater> just drawn without the 'matrix' :)
22:47:11  <Darkvater> in my local WC they already are matrices (WWT_LISTBOX)
22:47:15  <peter1138> heh
22:47:22  <Darkvater> wi->data then controls to draw the seperators or not
22:47:30  <peter1138> so what you're saying is i need to fix up that dynamic scroll bar patch?
22:48:03  <Darkvater> hmm (C peter1138), what did I say the last time...
22:48:09  <Darkvater> just said I need you to commit it :)
22:49:36  <Sacro> :o commitage!
22:50:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i gotta lay off that germanish capitalizing of words...
22:51:04  <peter1138> oh right
22:51:11  <peter1138> no, you complained about a global ;)
22:51:23  <Darkvater> he indeed
22:53:44  <Darkvater> damn, making road town-owned if it's close enough to a town at build-time is sucky...
22:53:57  * Darkvater can't think of any ideas that aren't ugly hacks
22:54:07  <peter1138> hmm
22:54:25  <peter1138> try the other method?
22:54:30  <peter1138> allow deletion of owner_none?
22:54:37  <Eddi|zuHause> how is it done when the town intself builds the road?
22:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> -n
22:55:00  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7027 /trunk/newgrf.c: - Codechange: Replace NewGRF loading stage masks with separate function lists. This will allow us to call different handlers depending on the current stage. Also enum-ize the stage.
22:55:45  <Darkvater> Eddi|zuHause: through a global variable
22:56:14  <peter1138> yuck
22:56:25  <Darkvater> peter1138: that works perfectly, only it is a bit strange that every road you build in the scenario editor, even for town-structuring is owned by noone
22:56:34  <Darkvater> _current_player in fact for town-ownership
22:56:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that's about what i thought, but i could not phrase it in words ;)
22:56:41  <peter1138> hmm
22:58:52  * Darkvater checks ttdp
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22:59:23  <Darkvater> dammit, it's okay there
22:59:35  <Darkvater> to do this
23:01:16  <tamlin> As a dropped in late; do what? (I do hope it's a programming or software design issue :-) )
23:01:38  <Darkvater> 23:53 <@Darkvater> damn, making road town-owned if it's close enough to a town at build-time is sucky...
23:01:41  <Darkvater> 23:53  * Darkvater can't think of any ideas that aren't ugly hacks
23:01:44  <Darkvater> there chew on this tamlin :)
23:02:25  <tamlin> How many bits have we to use?
23:02:31  <tamlin> (literally: bits)
23:02:43  <Darkvater> there are no bits involved
23:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really see a problem... there are 2 cases, you place a) a road, or b) a town
23:04:05  <tamlin> OK, so we'd need to add an "overlay" then, to not disturb existing data format (I assume the issue is "who owns the road" - if not, I misunderstood the issue).
23:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> in a) you loop through all towns, and check the distance
23:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> in b) you loop through all tiles in the "area" and "consume" those roads
23:04:30  <Darkvater> Eddi|zuHause: ok now look at the code and tell me where to inject it cleanly
23:04:39  <Darkvater> don't you think I know how to do it in theory?
23:04:47  <tamlin> lol
23:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe ;)
23:04:57  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7028 /trunk/ (road_cmd.c tunnelbridge_cmd.c):
23:04:57  <CIA-1> -Fix [FS#200]: Scenario bridges/tunnels cannot be demolished; now it's possible to
23:04:57  <CIA-1>  delete tunnels/bridges owned by nobody.
23:05:44  <Darkvater> tamlin: you misunderstood the issue
23:05:55  <tamlin> Seems I did.
23:06:07  <Darkvater> well actually not, but the overlay part is misunderstood
23:06:26  <Darkvater> tamlin:
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23:06:35  <tamlin> Is this for users building roads, or AI-built roads?
23:06:48  <Darkvater> hmm (C peter1138) Eddi|zuHause... your idea is actually not that bad
23:06:53  <tamlin> (or even editor build roads?)
23:06:56  *** smithj [] has joined #openttd
23:07:00  <smithj> hi
23:07:09  <Darkvater> just build the damn roads/bridges/tunnels and at the end do an additional loop to correct ownership
23:07:25  <Darkvater> although that loop could be quite consuming on large maps where you could've done it in place
23:07:41  <Darkvater> tamlin: building roads in editor by the user
23:08:22  <tamlin> Darkvater: Ahh. Now I see where my confusion came from. Yes, indeed, this is an interesting problem.
23:08:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you loop through the list of towns, which are not that many, or in case of town placement, the "area" of the town should not be dependant on map size...
23:09:18  <smithj> Can someone help me, I think I may have discovered a bug, but I am not sure...
23:09:38  <Eddi|zuHause> smithj: we can't tell either from the current information...
23:09:45  <Darkvater> Eddi|zuHause: well on large maps you have LOTS of towns, and for each you want to loop a certain still a lot of work
23:09:55  <smithj> i know, just wondered if someone has free 5 minutes to help me out
23:10:01  <Darkvater> where in about 90% of the cases no action will be taken at all
23:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no, you only have to check the distance from the newly placed piece of road, that is one calculation per town
23:11:00  <tamlin> Darkvater: From editor, I'd say where you start the bridge, that's the owner of it. Reasonable?
23:11:14  <Darkvater> so at the moment of putting down the road?
23:11:14  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish]
23:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:11:14  <smithj> I am using an SVN (r6682).  I have 4 intercontinental airports on my large map.  After 1 or 2 minutes, it crashes OpenTTD
23:11:27  <peter1138> well update
23:11:30  <Darkvater> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that was my original idea, one for which I'm looking for a clean implementation
23:11:31  <smithj> I am not sure if it's me, or a bug
23:11:55  <Darkvater> tamlin: yes, that is already so, during gameplay
23:12:01  <tamlin> smithj: If it crashes, it's obviously a bug!
23:12:22  <smithj> perhaps it may be due to my setup rather than the intercontinental airports
23:12:37  <smithj> can i swutch debug mode on in windows version...?
23:12:42  <Darkvater> this discussion is fine and dandy though, but the help I need is with the actual implementation, not with the theoretical design :)
23:12:56  <Darkvater> smithj: put the savegame online somewhere and I'll have a look
23:13:02  * peter1138 has a grand idea
23:13:09  <tamlin> smithj: If you can get hold of it, I suggest a copy of Purify.
23:13:20  <peter1138> it involves lying horizontally
23:13:29  <Darkvater> :O
23:13:31  * Darkvater likes that idea
23:13:56  <peter1138> hmm
23:14:33  <Darkvater> where the actual owner is being set is at road_cmd.c:415 for roads
23:14:50  <Darkvater> eg _current_player
23:15:09  <Darkvater> smithj: sorry, DCC doesn't really work for me
23:15:42  <smithj>
23:16:08  <Eddi|zuHause> smithj: check if it still occures with the current nightly
23:16:12  <smithj> ayone else who wants a copy, please feel free
23:16:17  <smithj> ok, i will downlaod nightly
23:16:30  <peter1138> thought you were using svn? heh
23:16:40  <tamlin> Darkvater: It's editor related, right? ONLY when adding new roads etc going *through* another owners land? Could different color-mappings be used to display ownership for a road segment (not just shades, but really different colo(u)rs)? Then allow the one editing the map do change ownership as s/he sees fit? (just brainstorming)
23:16:41  <Darkvater> HOLY CRAP SHIPS
23:16:44  <Darkvater> millions of them
23:16:48  <smithj> yes
23:16:55  <smithj> and one or two aircraft too
23:17:02  <Darkvater> why aren't you using yapf?
23:17:10  <peter1138> yapf is slow for ships?
23:17:21  <Darkvater> yes, but not as slow as NPF
23:17:31  <peter1138> oh
23:17:33  <smithj> with the amount of $$ i make, i didnt really give it a thought
23:17:43  <Darkvater> yapf is a pathfinder
23:17:49  <Darkvater> npf is a pathfinder
23:18:06  <peter1138> Darkvater: oh, well npf isn't enabled either :)
23:18:10  <smithj> ok i will try switching it on using latest nightly
23:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought NPF is already disabled for ships
23:18:16  <peter1138> nor is realistic acceleration :o
23:18:34  <Darkvater> peter1138: indeed
23:18:42  <Darkvater> so where's this crash? got any date?
23:18:43  <tamlin> Why would ships even need npf?
23:18:54  <peter1138> to get from a to b
23:19:02  <Darkvater> tamlin: well the idea is nice, but I want to DTRT
23:19:07  <peter1138> only 69 anyway
23:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> because NPF/YAPF are global pathfinders
23:19:11  <peter1138> not that many
23:19:13  <Darkvater> if a road is built close to a town it should *belong* to a town
23:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the old pathfinder had a limit on how far to look
23:19:23  <tamlin> Darkvater: DTRT?
23:19:28  <Darkvater> do the right thing
23:19:37  <tamlin> got it
23:19:38  <Darkvater> smithj: when does it crash?
23:19:52  <smithj> just after a couple of minutes i move round the map
23:20:04  <smithj> go to London and have a look at the two intercontinentals
23:20:06  <peter1138> it could just be a problem fixed since 6682
23:20:09  <smithj> then it hangs
23:20:20  <smithj> I'm thinking that could be it
23:20:24  <Darkvater> it's so damn slow in debug mode it hangs anyways ;p
23:20:54  <tamlin> Darkvater: Just to add a pathological case here. You have two cities the same distance from a lake. Build roads to the bridge, and roads to the cities. Who owns the bridge? It requires human intervention, I think.
23:21:17  <peter1138> 6682 is a bit old
23:21:18  <Darkvater> the town that was closest to the bridge's start-point
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23:21:40  <tamlin> Darkvater: My point here was that both are at the same distance.
23:21:53  <peter1138> that's why you choose the starting point :)
23:21:56  <tamlin> (from the lake, and therefore the bridge))
23:22:06  <Darkvater> hmm (C peter1138) anyone know how do I tell irssi to show DCC messages in the active channel window instead of the status window?
23:22:08  <peter1138> it really doesn't matter much who it belongs to
23:22:25  <peter1138> heh, (C Darkvater) i wish i knew ;p
23:22:30  <peter1138> (whatever that is ;p)
23:22:35  <Darkvater> copyright :)
23:22:41  <smithj> seems to be working fine now on r7020
23:22:47  <peter1138> ah
23:22:50  <peter1138> © :D
23:23:07  <tamlin> peter1138: I think that may be true, but just in case I'd still like the starting position (for bridges) to be the owner.
23:23:10  <Darkvater> ah found it
23:23:18  <peter1138> who would've thought there'd be changes in 338 revisions?
23:23:24  <smithj> :)
23:23:28  <tamlin> lol
23:23:44  <peter1138> that's a very... *flat* map
23:23:44  <Darkvater> tamlin: you are missing the point :). What you propose is ok/sensible AFTER it works as it should
23:24:21  <tamlin> Darkvater: Oh, so you're at the stage to trying to figure out who owns it _at the starting point_?
23:24:27  <Darkvater> 00:24 [lookandfeel]
23:24:27  <Darkvater> 00:24 use_status_window = OFF
23:24:28  <smithj> oh wait a sec
23:24:29  <Darkvater> there we go
23:24:47  <peter1138> wtf
23:24:55  <peter1138> yapf is *faster* in this game
23:25:03  <tamlin> Darkvater: Radius distance?
23:25:16  <Darkvater> tamlin: kinda; I'm at the stage of figuring out how to tell the game who owns it when I put it down. The only question here is code-based, eg "how the hell do I hack this in there"
23:25:24  <Darkvater> peter1138: well KUDr did a nice job :)
23:25:27  <peter1138> faster in a "the planes noticably speed up" way
23:25:36  <smithj> Thanks for your help guys.
23:25:37  <peter1138> that's faster than the original pathfinder, not npf
23:25:45  <tamlin> Darkvater: Wait a second. Radius distance would be wrong too, for a pathological case I just considered...
23:25:47  <Darkvater> ya
23:25:56  <peter1138> npf speeds it up lots too :)
23:26:10  <Darkvater> tamlin: your pathological case would involve user finetuning
23:26:16  <Darkvater> but we're really not there yet
23:26:32  <peter1138> oh, i had fast forward on
23:26:36  <peter1138> my machine isn't that slow ;p
23:26:39  <Darkvater> I'm going to join peter1138 on his brilliant idea though
23:26:42  <tamlin> Darkvater: Could we assign a very large penalty to water (even if just one tile)?
23:26:51  <Darkvater> what?
23:26:51  <smithj> Is there a place to suggest new features..?  I have one or two ideas.  Perhaps you guys can give me some feedback..?
23:27:13  <Darkvater> the forums or
23:27:42  <Brianetta> <-- LOLage
23:28:18  <smithj> Well, I'd like to see aqueducts and ship tunnels.  Also ships that carry vehicles would be nice.  What do you think...?
23:28:54  <glx> already suggested IIRC
23:29:20  <tamlin> Darkvater: I came to think of the case where you have town A to the west just beside a river (N/S), and a large town to the east that's further away from the river, but due to size it is the one that had the money to build the bridge, and therefore owns it. Bah, forget it, this is becoming too complex.
23:29:38  <Darkvater> yep
23:29:57  <Darkvater> crap I wanted to test av8 with the new sounds but now I can't :(
23:30:11  <Darkvater> smithj: see glx
23:30:24  <smithj> oh right
23:30:24  <Darkvater> well good-night all, see you tomorrow at work ;p
23:30:30  <smithj> bye, thanks again
23:30:35  <peter1138> you're coming to my office?
23:30:38  <glx> night Darkvater
23:31:01  <Darkvater> ..
23:31:14  <Darkvater> gn glx
23:31:27  <Darkvater> during work then :)
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