Log for #openttd on 16th November 2006:
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00:10:01  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7163 /trunk/yapf/ (autocopyptr.hpp countedptr.hpp): -Codechange: Disable compilation of additional yapf code.
00:14:48  <Darkvater> gn all
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01:56:49  <tormentum> morning all
01:57:38  <tormentum> just returning to OpenTTD after many moons, hell, too many moons playing WoW
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05:02:07  <ln-> guten morgen
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07:25:06  <Tobin> Word.
07:29:39  <peter1138> Letter.
07:30:45  <Tobin> Vowel.
07:31:02  <peter1138> Consonent.
07:31:20  <Tobin> Incontinence.
07:31:43  <peter1138> Pads.
07:31:49  <Tobin> Chair.
07:32:50  * Tobin thinks word association is fun but falls flat quickly
07:33:12  <peter1138> Yes, bored now.
07:33:19  <Tobin> Me too.
07:33:50  <Tobin> What's new?
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07:56:32  <Prof_Frink> Tobin: The day
07:56:58  <Tobin> Bah, that's almost 19 hours old!
07:59:27  <Prof_Frink> Nonsensicalities!
07:59:37  <Prof_Frink> 'tis not even 8AM
07:59:44  <Prof_Frink> 'tis now
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10:59:16  <Tobin> The stupidest online catalogue ever:
10:59:37  <peter1138> clever
10:59:38  <roboboy> gnight
10:59:43  <tormentum> << lawl
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11:00:00  <Tobin> peter1138: That's not clever; it's frustrating.
11:00:41  <tormentum> i cant even read that magazine...
11:00:44  <tormentum> harveys sucks anyways
11:00:54  * KUDr_wrk kicks CIA-1
11:00:54  <CIA-1> ow
11:00:56  <peter1138> actual lol
11:01:17  <Tobin> Yeah I know. I just want to check out what kinds of prices TVs are going for.
11:01:34  <Tobin> My TV _only_ have RF in. :)
11:01:37  <Tobin> *has
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11:02:25  <tormentum> lol
11:02:30  <tormentum> what is this TV thing you speak of?
11:02:44  <tormentum> i have a video play back device that is powered by torrent sites
11:02:50  <Tobin> It's the thing you plug your MythTV box into.
11:03:02  <tormentum> ahh!
11:03:10  <tormentum> i have a projector
11:03:11  <tormentum> lol
11:03:14  <tormentum> homemade too
11:03:20  <tormentum> works a charm
11:03:37  <Tobin> Or actually, it's the thing you plug your videoplayer into because it has RF out.
11:03:49  <tormentum> ergh i feel ur pain dude
11:04:15  <Tobin> Mostly I just don't want to bugger around anymore because I'm buying a Wii and the VCR has no more inputs.
11:04:42  <tormentum> i'm moving to canada from perth, australia... time for cable TV :P
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11:07:19  * Tobin bahs at cable TV
11:08:20  <Tobin> I think I'll wait until after Christmas to get a new TV.
11:08:52  <Tobin> Should be cheaper then...
11:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> what do you need cable tv for?
11:16:55  <tormentum> i dont
11:16:57  <tormentum> but it's there
11:17:08  <tormentum> i already have the cable internet connected lol
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14:44:48  <hylje>
14:44:54  <hylje> quantum physics are so fun
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14:57:16  <Brianetta> retrocausality is cool.
14:57:36  <Brianetta> I want a retrocausal light switch - one that changes state two seconds before you press it.
14:57:58  <Brianetta> Handy for finding the light switch in the dark in the first place.
14:58:09  <hylje> what if you stop the motion
14:58:21  <Brianetta> It wouldn't have come on
14:58:22  <hylje> would the light have switched on at all?
14:58:27  <hylje> oh, good
14:58:28  <Brianetta> it's retrocausal
14:58:47  <Brianetta> It'll only come on two seconds before you actually press it
14:59:10  <Brianetta> any attempts to break causality fail, regardless of direction.
14:59:21  <hylje> could make some nice WTFs for newbie users
14:59:25  <Brianetta> Just try catching a ball that hasn't been thrown.
14:59:45  <Brianetta> A light switch that only works when you don't try to prove it wrong.
15:00:07  <Brianetta> This is my approach on time travel generally
15:00:18  <Brianetta> You can go back in time and do stuff, but it has already been done.
15:00:23  <hylje> ohh, a light switch you can argue with?
15:00:24  <hylje> cool
15:00:58  <Brianetta> Well, you can try to argue with it
15:01:09  <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: Fnuh?
15:01:15  <Brianetta> but like a regular light switch, that light isn't going on unless you press the button.
15:01:34  <Brianetta> Prof_Frink: That sounded confused.
15:02:06  <hylje> besides
15:02:21  <hylje> a switch changing state a minute or so before you click it.. ha.
15:02:44  <Brianetta> A minute is getting silly - it's no longer practical.
15:02:57  <Brianetta> Not impossible, just not something you'd fit to your lamp.
15:03:04  <hylje> :>
15:06:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> so, if the light goes on, you have the choice of 1) jumping towards the switch in 2 seconds, or 2) the universe exploding
15:06:53  <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause2: No.  If the light goes on, it's because you are going to press the button.
15:07:00  <Brianetta> It's not going to endanger the universe.
15:07:09  <Brianetta> It's not going to come on spontaneously.
15:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> but if you did not even know that you were going to press the button?
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15:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> 2 seconds are a long time for a brain ;)
15:07:30  <Brianetta> Perhaps there's somebody else going to press it.
15:07:51  <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: Or, the switch was set to come onat that time anyway
15:07:52  <Brianetta> Fact is, if you're not in a position to press it, it's highly unlikely to come on.
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15:08:15  <Brianetta> Prof_Frink: No, my switch won't have a timer.  If it did, people would blame its behaviour on that.
15:09:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> i can't get comfortable with that idea... i'd still go with the multiple universe way of timetravel
15:09:53  <Brianetta> Comfort schmomfort.
15:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> i.e. you can go back in time, but that will cause a fork of the universe
15:10:07  <Brianetta> Nobody said quantum mechanics was easy to understand.
15:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> so whatever you do, it will not affect the future you were coming from
15:10:19  <Brianetta> I think that Occam's Razor comes into play.
15:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> and you can't go back to that future
15:10:35  <Brianetta> It's easier to just have a single consistent universe than spawning new ones for every single quantum decision.
15:11:10  <Brianetta> You're basically positing that time travel isn't observable except subjectively.
15:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> you think you're going to run out of storage space for universes? ;)
15:11:22  <Prof_Frink> Plus, what happens when the universe table gets full?
15:11:42  <Brianetta> Time travellers from the future, by simply arriving, are barring themselves from their own "home"
15:11:58  <Naksu> Brianetta: occam's razor doesn't work for hard sciences, sadly
15:12:17  <Brianetta> Naksu: That's *natural* sciences
15:12:26  <Naksu> maybe
15:12:39  <Brianetta> and it doesn't help determine reality, just helps to make choices when it comes to multiple hypotheses.
15:12:48  <Prof_Frink> Naksu: It's quantum. Logic is optional.
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15:13:33  <Brianetta> If we find that we have retrocausal entanglement after this:
15:13:48  <Brianetta> then it lends far more weight to boring time travel and fatality as I believe it.
15:14:01  <Brianetta> If we don't, it lends weight to many-universes.
15:14:35  <Brianetta> I'd rather not see many-universes, since that makes history way more boring.
15:15:56  <Brianetta> There's no mathematical reason why effect shouldn't precede cause.
15:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, there probably isn't, but there's infinitively many ways that would cause the universe to diverge
15:17:15  <Brianetta> Dos it diverge backwards?
15:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> in ways not healthy for men.
15:17:28  <Brianetta> Are there multiple possible pasts?
15:17:45  <Brianetta> Do you believe that there are more futrures than pasts?
15:18:33  <Prof_Frink> I like the idea of multiple universes.
15:18:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> that's a question very similar to "how do you fit all these people into hilbert's hotel"
15:18:46  <Brianetta> Time's direction is irrelevant, mathematically.  You'd need to explain why complexity increases in one direction only.  I think Entropy is only human perception.
15:18:48  <Prof_Frink> It means that somewhere, I understand what Brianetta's talking about.
15:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> you need a very special grasp of the matter to even begin to understand it
15:19:11  * Brianetta has been following it for about 15 years
15:20:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> a hundred years ago, people had problems understanding what infinity could mean, it's probably gonna take another century before people actuall understand the concept of time travel
15:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> +y
15:21:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> the biggest problem i have with time travel is, that someone could prevent the big bang...
15:22:05  <Brianetta> No, they couldn't
15:22:11  <Brianetta> First, it's the beginning of time
15:22:20  <Brianetta> so they can't get in front o fit
15:22:26  <Brianetta> second, the past can't be changed
15:22:42  <Brianetta> because that would break causality
15:22:47  <Brianetta> Likewise, the future is safe
15:23:12  <Brianetta> Causality can't be broken, but the direction in which causality happens doesn't matter.
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15:23:30  <Brianetta> I'd not be surprised if the big bang is actually caused by some future event.
15:23:39  <Brianetta> It certainly wasn't caused by something before it.
15:23:41  <hylje> yay, infinite loop
15:23:55  <Brianetta> hylje: Not a loop, though
15:24:07  <Brianetta> Well, it it, but it ian't infinite
15:24:13  <Brianetta> It's only traversed once.
15:25:11  <peter1138> is that like a moebius strip with a cut in it?
15:25:16  <Brianetta> Here's a hypothetical situation for you to chew on:
15:25:30  <Brianetta> You have a portable, personal time machine, good for one trip back of about a minute.
15:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> still, the human brain is not made for backwards causality
15:25:42  <Brianetta> You hear a noise in your kitchen, and investigate.
15:26:00  <Brianetta> You go into the kitchen, but see nothing.  You decide to investigate back in time.
15:26:08  <Brianetta> You activate your machine, and go back a minute.
15:26:21  <Brianetta> You accidentally knock something over.  That's the noise you heard.
15:26:28  <Brianetta> You jump into the cupboard, and wait.
15:26:36  <Brianetta> Sure enough, there you are, wandering in.
15:26:45  <Brianetta> You see your past self activate the time machine.
15:26:50  <Brianetta> You come out, mystery solved.
15:27:52  <Brianetta> It's a loop.  It isn't infinite.
15:28:15  * tormentum contemplates his navel
15:28:48  <smeding> how profound, tormentum
15:28:55  <smeding> also, hi everyone.
15:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> Brianetta: here's another one for you, same conditions as above, but when you come to the kitchen, you find yourself standing there, who of you two will have to convince who when to activate the time machine?
15:30:22  <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause2: Does it matteR?
15:30:38  <tormentum> smeding: yes, it's called omphaloskepsis
15:30:38  <Brianetta> It's going to be activate, otherwise they wouldn't meet.
15:30:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> and what if you give your time machine to your future self?
15:30:43  <Brianetta> You didn't
15:30:45  <Brianetta> you used it
15:31:02  <Brianetta> You can't change what happens - that's not what happened.
15:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, what prevents that future self you meet being the future self you met before
15:31:26  <smeding> tormentum: ah.
15:31:36  <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause2: It's just you
15:31:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you have two instances of you, one that is going to the kitchen, giving the time machine away, and moves on
15:32:05  <Brianetta> No
15:32:08  <Brianetta> One instance ofyou
15:32:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> and one that is using the time machine going backwards
15:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> over and over again
15:32:14  <Brianetta> intersecting yourself once
15:32:56  <Brianetta> You meet yourself, go back in time, become the other party to that meeting, then watch yourself go back,
15:33:00  <Brianetta> and that's it.
15:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> so, what about an effect, whose cause do not stop, but you delay infinitely?
15:44:30  <Brianetta> erm
15:44:36  <Brianetta> give an example
15:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> the neverending "ok, i'll promise to do it tomorrow" thing...
15:45:23  <Brianetta> If it's delayed infinitely, it doesn't happen.
15:45:28  <Brianetta> If it's delayed finitely, it does.
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15:45:51  <Brianetta> If the effect can be seen, you know it's finite.
15:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, finit, but unbounded...
15:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> however far in the future you go, the cause could be even further
15:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's undecidable if it is infinite
15:46:43  <Brianetta> The future is as fixed as the past.
15:46:55  <Brianetta> I fit's infinite, it never happens/
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15:47:27  <Brianetta> Causality is quite simple.  Any effect has a cause.
15:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but that way, you can determine the value of an undecidable problem
15:47:40  <Brianetta> What's an undecidable problem?
15:47:57  <Brianetta> Reverse causality gives you accurate information about the future, yes.
15:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> in that case, it's the halting problem of a turing machine
15:48:25  <Brianetta> That's true.
15:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> you know in advance, that it will halt.
15:48:38  <Brianetta> Only a lack of information from the future prevents you determining the solution.
15:48:57  <Brianetta> That hasn't changed anything.
15:49:31  <Brianetta> The halting problem is only a problem because we don't tend to experience retrocausality.
15:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> you can say, ok, i get to know instantly if it's going to halt, i just have to start it now
15:49:49  <Brianetta> No.
15:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> then i can use that value in another calculation
15:50:13  <Brianetta> You can't know if it's going to halt unless it does halt at some point int the future.
15:50:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> and if the original machine halts, you send the message back in time, that it doe
15:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> s
15:50:21  <Brianetta> If ytou don't bother to run it, you aren't going to get a result.
15:50:59  <Brianetta> The message sent back from the future can be either it halted, or, it was stopped without reaching its end.
15:50:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> i do run it
15:51:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> the message that it does not halt is never going to be sent
15:51:38  <Brianetta> That's right
15:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> as you pointed out before
15:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> so i get a message that it halts
15:51:49  <Brianetta> which leaves the two I just gave
15:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> or i don't
15:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> which means i can use that value in an other machine
15:52:15  <Brianetta> Yes, you can
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15:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> since i know, if it was going to halt, i'd have got the message by now
15:52:30  <Brianetta> not necessarily
15:52:36  <Brianetta> " or, it was stopped without reaching its end."
15:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> a turing machine that does not halt, does not halt
15:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> it runs infinitely
15:53:12  <Brianetta> In which case, you're prepared to run this turing machine forever
15:53:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> because it _could_ always halt with the next step
15:53:24  <Brianetta> and mecahnical breakdown isn't an issue
15:53:34  <Brianetta> or just oplain boredom
15:53:54  <Brianetta> You're going to assume that your machine never, ever, stops running
15:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a theoretical machine, it does not break down ;)
15:54:04  <Brianetta> which is unlikely in the extreme
15:54:17  <Brianetta> In which case, in theory, you're quite correct
15:54:21  <Brianetta> you've solved the problem
15:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> but since the problem is known to be unsolveable, it cannot be possible to send such a message back in time
15:54:48  <Brianetta> in practice, you're never going to be sure if your algorithm would have completed.
15:55:14  <Brianetta> Of course it is
15:55:21  <Brianetta> it's just not possible to run your machine forever
15:55:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> and what exactly would prevent it`
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15:56:09  <Brianetta> The end of time
15:56:54  <Brianetta> If you believe that time continues indefinitely, and that you can run a turing machine indefinitely, then YOU HAVE SOLVED THE HALTING PROBLEM.
15:56:57  <Brianetta> Congratulations.
15:57:16  <Brianetta> It's not going to help you in the real world, because infinite is something that can't be experimented on in the real world.
15:59:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> but "nothing in mathmatics is preventing time from being infinite" (to go back to one of your introductional statements)
16:00:01  <Brianetta> [15:15] <Brianetta> There's no mathematical reason why effect shouldn't precede cause.
16:00:08  <Brianetta> That one?
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16:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i altered the meaning, but it is the same class of statement
16:01:39  <Brianetta> You changed the meaning completely.
16:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> it has the same structure of the argument, you bring mathmatical reasoning into "the real world"
16:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> which brings both to the same level of "probably not possible at all"
16:04:25  <Brianetta> Your reasoning has completely eluded me.
16:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you cannot talk my theory down with the same argument, that your entire theory is based on
16:05:07  <Brianetta> I already said, if you believe that time continues indefinitely, and that you can run a turing machine indefinitely, then you have solved the halting problem.
16:05:41  <Brianetta> I just said it wouldn't stand up to real world testing.  That's for mundane reasons, like making a machine that's infinitely reliable.
16:05:59  *** scia [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:06:03  <Brianetta> Nothing to do with the impossibility of what you suggest - it's perfectly possible, in theory.
16:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> i am probably having a hard time to express my true thoughts, since i am talking in a foreign language...
16:06:43  *** Rexxie [] has joined #openttd
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16:13:06  <Sacro> god, your conversation is confusing
16:13:29  <hylje> quantum physics are like that
16:14:55  <Brianetta> Sacro: Get a subscription to New Scientist (:
16:15:52  <Sacro> i was sat reading the logs at college
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16:23:40  <Gorre> morning
16:24:06  <Sacro> Gorre: lies
16:24:43  <Gorre> ..mourning
16:27:14  <Sacro> :( sorry to hear that
16:28:39  <Gorre> (relationship-type of mourning)
16:36:26  *** Jhs [] has quit [Quit: cya]
16:42:13  *** tormentum [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:52:09  <Brianetta> Gorre: I just broke up with my goth club.
16:52:14  *** Rens2Sea [~Rens2Sea@] has joined #openttd
16:52:56  <Brianetta> I've lost about 10 friends, although I can now appreciate that friendship was only a facade
16:53:38  <Brianetta> still hurts
16:53:48  <Brianetta> so you have my sympathy
16:55:08  <Gorre> oh, great, thank you
16:55:49  <Brianetta> (:
16:55:53  <Brianetta> If it's worth anything, of course
16:56:13  <Brianetta> Still, I have dinner tonight with my fiancee and her bridesmaid
16:56:38  <Brianetta> and spaces on the wedding invite list...
16:57:03  <Brianetta> Speaking of which, I have to head on out
16:57:09  <Brianetta> back later, everybody
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17:02:54  <Gorre> "How to turn off the annoying local authority?"
17:02:57  <Gorre> Yes! Thats it!
17:03:19  <Gorre> This is the second most important question right after "Where do we go?"
17:15:33  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:17:43  <MiHaMiX> Commit by glx :: r7168 /branches/MiniIN/ (depot_gui.c train_gui.c) (2006-11-16 15:37:33 UTC)
17:17:47  <MiHaMiX>  Commit by KUDr :: r7169 /trunk/station_cmd.c (2006-11-16 16:18:00 UTC)
17:17:54  <MiHaMiX>  Commit by Darkvater :: r7170 /trunk/video/sdl_v.c (2006-11-16 16:50:54 UTC)
17:18:00  <MiHaMiX>  Commit by miham :: r7171 /trunk/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs) (2006-11-16 17:15:26 UTC)
17:18:17  <MiHaMiX> unfortunately CIA is on death row..
17:18:26  *** CIA-1 was kicked from #openttd by MiHaMiX [wake up and work!]
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17:19:06  *** CIA-1 [] has joined #openttd
17:19:21  * Sacro kicks CIA-1
17:19:21  <CIA-1> ow
17:19:34  * MiHaMiX kicks Sacro
17:20:00  <Sacro> ow
17:21:38  <MiHaMiX> :D
17:21:54  <Sacro> D:
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17:28:03  *** Rens2Sea is now known as Rens2Eat
17:33:10  <Darkvater> hmm
17:33:30  <Darkvater> what shall add as text for a chat setting that on: send to all players, off: send to team
17:34:28  *** CIA-1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:34:44  <hylje> "Prefer Team Chat"
17:35:00  <Darkvater> :O
17:35:01  <Darkvater> good one
17:35:27  <Darkvater> :{LTBLUE}Prefer Team chat with <ENTER>: {ORANGE}{STRING1}
17:47:32  <peter1138> YES NO THREE-BAGS-FULL
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17:57:59  <Wolf01> ello
17:59:21  <KUDr> KUDr kicks CIA-1
17:59:45  * KUDr kicks CIA-1
17:59:51  <KUDr> :)
18:00:09  <CIA-1> ow
18:00:09  <KUDr> !commit 7174
18:00:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> !openttd commit
18:00:23  <_42_> Commit by KUDr :: r7174 /trunk/station_cmd.c (2006-11-16 17:59:02 UTC)
18:00:25  <_42_> -CodeChange: CheckStationSpreadOut() now uses MergePoint() for bounding rectangle calculation.
18:00:27  <KUDr> ahh
18:00:29  <KUDr> thanks
18:00:42  <KUDr> CIA has public holiday
18:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> emanzipation of the bots...
18:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> that can only end badly for humans ;)
18:01:48  <KUDr> seems so
18:02:57  <hylje> :o
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18:20:45  <peter1138> grrrr
18:20:50  <peter1138> need a reboot
18:20:52  <peter1138> but i can't :/
18:22:55  <Rubidium> not sure your brain & heart come up after a complete power down?
18:23:37  <Noldo> they are both quite dynamic when in action
18:24:36  <peter1138> Rubidium, it's windows
18:24:38  <peter1138> it needs activation...
18:24:43  <Sacro> haha
18:25:34  <HMage> vista?
18:25:44  <peter1138> xp
18:29:30  <hylje> how do you scroll up and down in screen
18:29:57  <Sacro> [ and ] ?
18:30:38  <hylje> not rly
18:30:47  <hylje> oh, ^A[]
18:31:35  <hylje> wtf? empty buffer :x
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18:57:41  <MeusH> good evening
18:57:53  <Born_Acorn> MeusH!
18:58:05  <MeusH> \o/ :P
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19:00:53  * Born_Acorn reads the SVN Digest
19:00:56  <Born_Acorn> yay newhouses!
19:03:20  <peter1138> wow
19:03:25  <peter1138> invisible had a brilliant idea
19:03:32  <peter1138> why did no-one else think of that...
19:03:53  <Sacro> ?
19:03:55  <hylje> what
19:04:52  *** scia [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:07:12  <HMage> peter1138: what are you talking about?
19:07:33  <peter1138>
19:07:43  <peter1138> ah well
19:09:07  * Born_Acorn gets peter1138 in trouble by pasting his obviously sarcastic response!
19:09:56  <peter1138> o_O
19:10:16  <Born_Acorn> NewGRF is now an entity!
19:10:23  <Born_Acorn> NewGRF's!
19:10:30  <Born_Acorn> (NewGRF's what?
19:10:37  <peter1138> yesa
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19:12:57  *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
19:19:10  <MeusH> Darkvater, awake!
19:19:21  <MeusH> !seen Darkvater
19:19:22  <_42_> MeusH, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
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19:32:37  <Born_Acorn> _42_ should say something more useful!
19:32:48  <Born_Acorn> like "Darkvater last spoke yesterday"
19:33:11  <Born_Acorn> or "Darkvater last spoke whenever"
19:33:15  *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
19:33:17  <MeusH> It's possible, look :P
19:33:23  <MeusH> !seen Darkvate*
19:33:24  <_42_> MeusH, I found one match to your query: Darkvater. Darkvater ( was last seen changing his/her nick from DarkSSHClone on #openttd 4 days 4 hours 50 minutes ago (12.11. 14:42). Darkvater is still there.
19:33:30  <MeusH> lol
19:33:33  <MeusH> bots
19:33:38  <MeusH> humanz pwn u
19:33:42  <Born_Acorn> That's a search though. :p
19:34:12  <Born_Acorn> I use a bouncer to be in this channel 24/7! Using !seen Born_Acorn won't return any useful responses though!
19:34:53  <MeusH> hmm
19:34:57  <Gorre> !seen progress
19:34:57  <_42_> Gorre, I don't remember seeing progress.
19:35:00  <Gorre> :,(
19:37:33  <Born_Acorn> !seen anything
19:37:33  <_42_> Born_Acorn, anything? hmm... I'm trying to remember... maybe... I'm not sure... no. I don't remember anything.
19:37:41  <Born_Acorn> :o
19:39:24  *** MeusH is now known as sex
19:39:31  <sex> !seen with_her
19:39:31  <_42_> sex, I don't remember seeing with_her.
19:39:36  <sex> ehh
19:39:39  *** sex is now known as MeusH
19:39:42  <MeusH> didn't work :(
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20:04:13  <Born_Acorn> !seen hawt_laydeez
20:04:14  <_42_> Born_Acorn, you know that the length of nicks is limited, don't you?
20:04:28  <Born_Acorn> :(
20:04:40  *** Born_Acorn is now known as hawt_laydeez
20:04:45  <hawt_laydeez> obviously not like that
20:04:48  * hawt_laydeez wins
20:04:51  *** hawt_laydeez is now known as Born_Acorn
20:05:22  *** Rens2Eat is now known as Rens2Sea
20:08:15  *** Rens2Sea is now known as Rens2GoW
20:10:08  *** Tron_ [] has joined #openttd
20:13:16  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as nicks_can_be_really_long_on_of
20:13:37  <Tron_> slist_tpl<hashtable_tpl<obj_type, stringhashtable_tpl<slist_tpl<obj_besch_t**> >, inthash_tpl<obj_type> >::node_t>
20:13:39  <Tron_> this is plain sick
20:13:40  <nicks_can_be_really_long_on_of> damn, 2 letters too much ;)
20:13:50  *** nicks_can_be_really_long_on_of is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is that supposed to mean?
20:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only person to think that nested templates are really ugly?
20:16:37  *** Tron [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:37  <PandaMojo> Bah, that's not *that* sick.
20:16:47  *** Twinsen__ [user@] has quit [Quit: Trillian (]
20:16:49  <PandaMojo> I've written much worse :D
20:16:51  *** Cirana [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:52  <MiHaMiX> Eddi|zuHause: i like nested templates :)
20:16:58  <Tron_> it's very simple: it's a single linked list of the nodes of a hashtable which maps obj_type to a hashtable which maps strings to a single linked list of pointers to pointers to obj_besch_t, isn't it obvious?
20:17:02  <MiHaMiX> Eddi|zuHause: but only in java :)
20:17:19  <MiHaMiX> Tron_: it's more than obvious, but thanks :D
20:17:41  <PandaMojo> Things don't start to get fun until you're using something like the boost preprocessor library and multi-argument template-template parameters :D
20:18:40  <peter1138> hmm
20:19:30  <Tron_> oh, and each entry of the (outer) single linked list is 1220 bytes large
20:19:47  <Tron_> (on 32bit machines)
20:19:54  *** Tron_ is now known as Tron
20:20:52  <peter1138> uh
20:21:10  <Tron> slowly i'm beginning to grasp where Simutrans is using all this memory
20:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> anything this complicated looks like totally wrong design to me...
20:23:00  <Patrick_> lolsimutrans
20:23:24  <Tron> i'm not sure what a single linked list of the nodes of a hashtable which maps obj_type to a hashtable which maps strings to a single linked list of pointers to pointers to obj_besch_t could be useful for
20:23:52  <MiHaMiX> Tron: i know a reason: to reserve a whole lot of memory :D
20:24:08  *** DaleStan_ [~Dale@] has joined #openttd
20:24:50  <Patrick_> "There's a hair on the frog on the log in the hole at the bottom of the sea"
20:26:12  <MiHaMiX> Patrick_: :DD
20:26:33  <Patrick_> I wanted to add more
20:26:34  <PandaMojo> besch?
20:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume Beschreibung == description
20:26:53  <Patrick_> there's a linked list of the nodes of the hashtable of the map of the obj_type to the hashtable to the gah
20:27:08  <Patrick_> in the memory hole in the bottom of the C
20:27:10  <PandaMojo> I see.
20:27:20  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: simutrans comments and varnames are mainly german
20:27:28  *** CIA-1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:27:30  <Patrick_> dat is verboten!
20:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i heard that...
20:30:03  <Patrick_> All the german I know I learned from the writings of Häftling 174517. Probably not the most unbiased source of information.
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20:54:46  <Wolf01> KUDr, i tried your station walking abuse fix, but does not fix if you set the station spread to 50000000000 and place the first tile near an industry and the rest of the station near the destination station
20:55:19  *** lws|Away is now known as lws1984
20:55:35  <glx> Wolf01: but it's not station walking in this case
20:55:39  <KUDr> Wolf01: this was not the bug
20:55:59  <KUDr> the bug was about something else
20:56:11  <KUDr> 50000000000: how did you set spread 50000000000?
20:56:29  <Wolf01> by clicking some times
20:56:34  <Wolf01> XD
20:56:43  <KUDr> XD?
20:56:51  <Wolf01> not 5000000 but i say 200 tiles
20:56:57  <KUDr> i can set max 64
20:57:14  <Wolf01> i have it set to 80
20:57:19  <KUDr> heh
20:57:20  <KUDr> how?
20:57:28  <Wolf01> i don't know
20:57:34  <PandaMojo> hax
20:57:49  <Eddi|zuHause> usually you can click on numerical values to enter a number yourself, instead of using the arrow buttons
20:58:08  <Wolf01> talking about the station sign, i think that should be easy to place it in the center of the rectangle which contain the station
20:58:17  <KUDr> if you don't exceed max station spread then this is not an error
20:58:37  <KUDr> Wolf01: so what do you want to be fixed here?
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20:59:20  <Wolf01> i make a mockup, wait a minute
20:59:34  <KUDr> Wolf01: now your station sign cannot be outside station bounding rectangle
20:59:49  <KUDr> this is the fix
21:00:57  <KUDr> Eddi|zuHause: but still 64 is the max
21:01:50  <glx> min 4 max 64 default 12 (in settings.c)
21:01:58  <KUDr> yes
21:02:02  <KUDr> and it works so
21:02:26  <Wolf01>
21:02:44  <Wolf01> the bottom one is what i want
21:02:57  <KUDr> Wolf01: this is ok
21:03:50  <KUDr> before it was possible to have sign far away (1000 tiles) from the station
21:04:03  <KUDr> now you can't do that
21:04:07  <KUDr> (i hope)
21:04:07  <Wolf01> yes, i know
21:04:12  <peter1138> argh!
21:04:14  <peter1138> i just started fgfs
21:04:23  <peter1138> and there's a huge 737 coming straight at me
21:04:36  <peter1138> taxing with it's gear up no ness
21:04:37  <KUDr> Wolf01: so what did you want to tell me?
21:04:42  <peter1138> +i
21:05:05  <glx> peter1138: it's nice :)
21:05:21  <Wolf01> can you make a locomotion style station sign?
21:05:24  <hylje> what
21:05:34  <KUDr> peter1138: fgfs is tv station?
21:05:45  <glx> flight gear
21:05:54  <KUDr> aha
21:06:09  <Darkvater> KUDr: what did r7169 exactly do?
21:06:23  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:06:34  <Wolf01> keep the station sign always in the station rectangle
21:06:44  <hylje> fsgds
21:06:45  <Darkvater> anything else?
21:06:56  <KUDr> Darkvater: if you move your station, then sign follows it
21:07:05  <hylje> AAA STALKER SIGNS
21:07:19  <KUDr> Darkvater: what else?
21:07:38  <Darkvater> KUDr: if you move it that the original station-tile is removed, right?
21:07:50  <Ailure> Hmm
21:07:51  <Ailure> anyway
21:07:55  <Ailure> the other day I was looking at that uhm
21:07:55  <Darkvater> not walking with having a piece here and another miles away?
21:07:56  <Darkvater> eg
21:07:56  <KUDr> not removed, just moved
21:08:03  <Darkvater> bus ------------------------------------------------------------------------- train
21:08:05  <KUDr> aha
21:08:06  <KUDr> yes
21:08:11  <KUDr> understad
21:08:17  <Ailure> A380 made by airbus on google
21:08:23  <Darkvater> so what is it?
21:08:31  <Darkvater> bus sign ------------------------------------------------------------------- train
21:08:34  <Darkvater> or
21:08:37  <Ailure> I was quite amused seeing a ad who said "Looking for A380? Find it on XXX"
21:08:41  <Darkvater> bus ---------------------------------sign------------------------------------------- train
21:08:44  <Darkvater> ?
21:08:52  <Ailure> "Buy today" or something
21:08:57  <KUDr> bus sign ------------------------------------------------------------------- train
21:09:14  <KUDr> or bus ------------------------------------------------------------------- sign train
21:09:28  <Ailure> if you meant that the sign belongs to the bus station
21:09:28  <KUDr> but not sign ---------- bus ------------------------------------------train
21:09:30  <hylje> big bang ------------------------------------------------- 0 ---------- you -------------- the present
21:09:35  <Darkvater> KUDr: and what about
21:09:35  <Ailure> ten yeah, that's how people abuse station walking
21:09:39  <Darkvater> --------------------------------------------------------- train
21:09:40  <Darkvater> ?
21:10:10  <KUDr> --------------------------------------------------------- train ? << wtf?
21:10:11  <Darkvater> because what you said above was already like this. The sign stayed where it was
21:10:19  <Darkvater> you removed the original bus station
21:10:20  <Darkvater> eg
21:10:24  <Darkvater> bus truck
21:10:29  <Darkvater> --- truck bus
21:10:34  <Darkvater> --- --- bus truck
21:10:36  <Darkvater> etc
21:10:40  <KUDr> aha
21:11:00  <KUDr> yes you are right it can still be bit away from the station
21:11:15  <Darkvater> 22:10 < KUDr> --------------------------------------------------------- train ? << wtf? << so where is the sign here?
21:11:18  <KUDr> if you move in 2 directions
21:11:22  <Darkvater> heh, I could just as well test it
21:11:26  <hylje>
21:11:30  <Darkvater> -Fix: forgotten pointer dereferences (Bjarni, Bjarni, Bjarni, ...) o_O
21:11:49  <Darkvater> Bjarni, if you are reading this: you should not be allowed to code :(
21:12:39  <hylje> :D
21:14:56  <Darkvater> ah KUDr see it...good fix. station spread is actually limited to real station spread
21:15:01  <HMage> Darkvater: regarding r7169, you can ask me
21:15:08  <KUDr> yes
21:15:13  <Darkvater> who are you and what is 7169?
21:15:21  <KUDr> :))))
21:15:23  <Darkvater> ah the station ;p
21:15:26  <Darkvater> dammit
21:15:30  <Darkvater> it sucks is down
21:15:32  <HMage> :P
21:15:38  <Darkvater> !seen bob
21:15:39  <_42_> Darkvater, I don't remember seeing bob.
21:15:48  <Darkvater> !openttd commit 7169
21:15:52  <_42_> Commit by KUDr :: r7169 /trunk/station_cmd.c (2006-11-16 16:18:00 UTC)
21:15:54  <_42_> -Fix: [FS#388] Station sign (and base station coordinates) didn't move along with station when station moved by walking. (HMage)
21:15:59  <HMage> Darkvater:
21:16:18  <HMage> see the attachment
21:16:57  <Darkvater> it's already committed, no sense seeing attachment now ;)
21:17:09  <HMage> I know, just in case you wanted clarification what's what
21:17:30  <Wolf01> To "fix" we need to rework the whole station concept together with catchment area" aha! is what i need to write the show catchement area for existent stations :D
21:17:32  <Darkvater> no, I know fully what this 'feature' was and how to use it :)
21:18:22  <Darkvater> Wolf01: station catchment is rectangle from left-top corner to bottom-right corner. Even if you have 1-1 tile in there, or a an L-shaped station
21:18:30  <HMage> yep, and I could build two bus stations nearby, giving me thousands of dollars by just transferring (visually) 3 cells, catchment area was 12.
21:18:30  <Darkvater> brb, some James Bond on tv
21:18:49  <hylje> Darkvater: if you had a L station with just the ends of L as station
21:18:53  <hylje> liek ' .
21:19:06  <Wolf01> i know and what i want to do is to show the real catchement area, based on the station shape
21:19:28  <Darkvater> to show is not enough, it needs to actually work :)
21:19:39  <Darkvater> showing something else to what is actually happening is misleading
21:19:46  <Patrick_> ooh, that's good
21:19:51  <Patrick_> why didn't anyone make that before
21:20:07  <KUDr> Patrick_: what?
21:20:13  <Wolf01> if you fix the invisible catchement area i can make the visible catchement area :D
21:20:56  <HMage> Also, there's another exploit in multiplayer, this can lead to getting millions of dollars in just two minutes. You only need to allow buying and selling shares and two clients running on different companies.
21:21:16  <Sacro> HMage: its well known
21:21:56  <Noldo> shares don't make any sense anyway
21:21:59  <KUDr> HMage: how it works?
21:23:27  <KUDr> are you mean by repeating buy - buy- sell - sell ?
21:26:25  <HMage> no, lemme refresh my memory in a moment
21:28:17  <Patrick_> yeah, it's been known for ages
21:28:25  <Patrick_> that's why servers have an option to disable shares
21:29:24  <peter1138> not quite two minutes
21:29:29  <peter1138> you need to play for 5 years first, heh
21:29:43  <KUDr> and without fast forward
21:29:58  <KUDr> so it is not so serious
21:30:00  <HMage> 5 years is ok, but then you can do a very huge boost.
21:30:17  <KUDr> in 5 years you already have milions
21:30:58  <HMage> alright
21:30:58  <KUDr> HMage after 5 years you have enough money anyway - no more it is about money
21:31:13  <HMage> ok
21:31:19  <KUDr> you just build network
21:31:38  <peter1138> disable shares, really
21:31:49  <peter1138> nobody ever uses them properly
21:31:57  <KUDr> true
21:32:15  <HMage> maybe then apply a similar procedure for terraforming? To keep vandalism at bay
21:32:27  <HMage> and will harden the game
21:32:39  <HMage> (ie make it harder to play)
21:32:51  <peter1138> disable terraforming?
21:32:53  <peter1138> cool :)
21:32:54  <HMage> first 5 years you can't terraform
21:33:00  <HMage> or first 1, or 2
21:33:06  <KUDr> heh
21:33:11  <KUDr> good idea :)
21:36:01  *** ChrisM87 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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21:40:57  <KUDr> !openttd commit 7167
21:41:00  <_42_> Commit by KUDr :: r7167 /trunk/train_gui.c (2006-11-16 13:59:26 UTC)
21:41:02  <_42_> -Fix: [FS#367] Crash: engine.h:194: RailVehInfo: Assertion (reported by skidd13)
21:41:27  <KUDr> Darkvater: did you see it? Another Bjarni's crash fixed
21:42:08  *** CIA-1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:42:13  <peter1138> ah, that one
21:42:17  <peter1138> i mentioned it to him
21:42:45  <KUDr> long time asigned to Bjarni and nothing happened
21:42:52  <peter1138> are we getting rid of those buttons?
21:43:25  <KUDr> no
21:43:29  <peter1138> oh
21:43:36  <KUDr> they can stay
21:43:46  *** Belugas is now known as Belugas_Gone
21:43:52  <KUDr> i'll make the code better readable
21:43:55  *** CIA-1 [] has joined #openttd
21:44:01  <Belugas_Gone> bye bye
21:44:03  <peter1138> it's not the code
21:44:08  <peter1138> (well, it is, but...)
21:44:17  <MeusH> bye Belugas_Gone
21:44:21  <peter1138> the train one isn't so bad
21:44:23  <peter1138> because it has "both"
21:44:25  <peter1138> but for aircraft...
21:44:47  <KUDr> yes, for trains only it should remain i guess
21:48:36  *** Turski [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
21:49:52  * HMage is getting used to openttd code, trying to find an elegant way to limit new companies terraforming abilities
21:49:55  *** BJH2 [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.12/20050915]]
21:56:18  *** CIA-1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:56:26  <Wolf01> 'night
21:56:30  *** Wolf01 [] has quit []
21:57:24  <Patrick_> if it's possible, it's exploitable
21:59:19  <Sacro> try telling microsoft that
22:01:26  <Darkvater> KUDr: r7167 :(
22:01:37  <Darkvater> KUDr: we are getting rid of the buttons
22:02:00  <peter1138>
22:02:01  <KUDr> hmm, must they go for trains too?
22:02:01  <peter1138> hmm
22:02:09  <peter1138> wish it was all like that :)
22:02:16  <peter1138> for fgfs of course, not ottd :)
22:02:32  <Sacro> ooh flightsim
22:03:08  <Darkvater> KUDr: yes, preferrably
22:03:15  *** CIA-1 [] has joined #openttd
22:03:59  * Darkvater kicks CIA-1
22:04:14  <KUDr> Darkvater: i would let them go on other transport types only
22:04:33  <Darkvater> sorry?
22:05:16  *** Tobin [] has joined #openttd
22:05:36  <KUDr> like airplanes
22:06:17  <Darkvater> ?
22:06:22  <glx> !openttd commit
22:06:34  <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r7182 /trunk/ (47 files in 6 dirs) (2006-11-16 22:05:33 UTC)
22:06:36  <_42_> -Feature: Merge utf8 branch. This brings us support for Unicode/UTF-8 and the option for fonts rendered by FreeType. Language changes to come.
22:07:05  <Darkvater> omg omg!
22:07:06  <KUDr> WOW!
22:09:00  <KUDr> Darkvater: aha, sorry, they are only on trains
22:09:07  <KUDr> my misunderstanding
22:09:19  <KUDr> but it makes me unhappy
22:09:24  <KUDr> i like them
22:10:24  <CIA-1> ow
22:10:24  *** CIA-1 [] has quit []
22:10:25  *** CIA-2 [] has joined #openttd
22:10:27  *** CIA-1 [] has joined #openttd
22:10:32  <peter1138> o_O
22:10:37  *** CIA-2 [] has quit []
22:10:46  <Darkvater> oh peter1138... can you incorporate the czech namegen changes?
22:10:53  <peter1138> hmm?
22:11:06  <KUDr> Darkvater: no no
22:11:07  <peter1138> more? feh
22:11:13  *** BFM [] has joined #openttd
22:11:16  <KUDr> they are not complete
22:11:31  <KUDr> no czech name changes now
22:11:32  <Darkvater> no typing mistakes
22:11:56  <KUDr> with utf-8 they will be changed
22:12:03  <Darkvater> yes, that's why
22:12:22  <KUDr> as many characters will be added
22:12:49  <Darkvater> but there was a spelling mistake according to the guy
22:14:05  <KUDr> only one
22:14:07  <KUDr> minor
22:14:13  <KUDr> one y->i
22:14:13  <Darkvater>
22:14:30  <Darkvater> ok, you know better, just wanted it known ;)
22:14:44  <KUDr> i know him - i am at email contact with him
22:15:14  <KUDr> "a horrible typo ("Cydlina" -> "Cidlina" river)"
22:15:21  <KUDr> only one typo
22:15:36  <KUDr> the rest is just not using czech chars
22:15:57  <KUDr> now it can be done much better with utf-8
22:16:03  <KUDr> hadez will be happy
22:16:21  * Sacro doesnt think chezchs exist
22:16:32  <KUDr> he can now start translation of all ottd strings from the beginning :)
22:16:46  <glx>
22:16:49  <KUDr> Sacro: czech
22:16:54  <Sacro> i was close
22:16:59  <KUDr> :)
22:17:04  <Sacro> whats the plural though?
22:17:17  <Sacro> 1 czech, 2 czechs?
22:17:44  <Gorre> czechs for sure
22:18:15  <MeusH> glx: what does that code mean? No utf-8 support in win9x?
22:18:20  <KUDr> :)
22:18:44  <glx> MeusH: no just dead keys are not usable in win32 since a long time ago
22:18:46  <KUDr> probably czechs but not sure
22:18:46  <Darkvater> MeusH: partial utf8-support in win9x, but that code does nothing, only nicer
22:19:26  <Darkvater> glx: yeah, good thing; almost forgot about translatemessage
22:19:31  <HMage> one internal question - CmdTerraformLand() gets called also by towns, is there a distinguishable way to find out if it's done by human player? (IS_HUMAN_PLAYER calls GetPlayer(), which asserts on town PlayerID). Should I modify IS_HUMAN_PLAYER() macro to check if ID is < lengthof(_players)?
22:19:47  <Darkvater> _current_player is what you need
22:20:13  <HMage> it's 15 (0xf - OWNER_TOWN)
22:20:19  <HMage> if it's called by towns
22:20:22  <peter1138> !openttd commit
22:20:35  <Sacro> Commit by peter1138 :: r7182 /trunk/ (47 files in 6 dirs) (2006-11-16 22:05:33 UTC)
22:20:41  <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r7183 /trunk/lang/ (30 files in 2 dirs) (2006-11-16 22:19:12 UTC)
22:20:42  <Sacro> -Feature: Merge utf8 branch. This brings us support for Unicode/UTF-8 and the option for fonts rendered by FreeType. Language changes to come.
22:20:43  <_42_> -Feature (cont): Convert all language from ISO8859-15 to UTF-8
22:21:05  <glx> Sacro: don't try to be a bot :)
22:21:08  <MeusH> Sacro?
22:21:11  <Darkvater> whohoo
22:21:19  <Sacro> glx: i thought i did quite well... _42_ was being slow
22:21:25  <KUDr> peter1138: what about table/namegen.h ? Will it be in utf-8 too?
22:21:40  <HMage> Uh oh, I should check cyrillic txt's.
22:21:44  <KUDr> or utf-16?
22:21:58  <Sacro> or utf-7?
22:21:59  <peter1138> utf-8
22:22:08  <KUDr> ok
22:22:29  <KUDr> with BOM?
22:22:48  <peter1138> no
22:22:55  <HMage> strgen should check for BOM's
22:23:13  <HMage> just in case someone modifies .txt's by hand during translation
22:23:19  <KUDr> i mean because of editors (table/namegen.h)
22:23:22  <HMage> (and testing locally)
22:23:51  <KUDr> yes, we should use BOMs
22:26:35  <Darkvater> da BOMB
22:26:41  <KUDr> i.e. when i open table/namegen.h in MSVC it just sucks
22:26:48  <Patrick_> muhahah, the dean-stark apparatus
22:27:13  <peter1138> open it in a decent editor then
22:27:49  <peter1138> hmm
22:28:07  <KUDr> decent editors use BOMs
22:28:09  <peter1138> namegen.h appears borked anyway
22:28:13  <KUDr> like MSVC does
22:28:14  <peter1138> *sigh*
22:29:39  <KUDr> czech part seems ok, but it is in UTF-8 and BOM is missing
22:29:53  <peter1138> no
22:29:58  <peter1138> it's fucked :(
22:29:59  <peter1138> sorry
22:30:08  <peter1138> catalan name generator is still latin15
22:30:19  * peter1138 fixes
22:30:26  <KUDr> name_czech_real is utf-8
22:30:30  <KUDr> and fine
22:31:11  *** Smoovious [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:31:20  <peter1138> yes
22:31:26  <peter1138> but the catalan one isn't
22:31:39  <MeusH> so we'll have to wait just for WT2 to allow utf-8 marks and we can have first WT2-produced utf8 translations?
22:31:40  <KUDr> i see
22:31:43  <peter1138> and mixed latin/utf causes editors to barf
22:32:08  <KUDr> not the good editors
22:32:16  <KUDr> i see there <?>
22:32:23  <KUDr> in catalan names
22:32:30  <Patrick_> I ? unicode
22:32:31  <peter1138> ok, not barf
22:32:33  <peter1138> it shows it fine
22:32:37  <peter1138> it's just wrong :P
22:32:40  <peter1138> and i'm fixing it now
22:32:49  <HMage> it shows as japanese symbol here in UltraEdit
22:33:08  <MeusH> maybye it's korean? :o
22:33:24  <HMage> I am not sure, I don't know any of eastern languages :)
22:33:28  <HMage> of the*
22:33:44  <HMage> Though I know russian
22:34:38  <MeusH> there's plenty of them
22:34:41  <MeusH> too much
22:37:07  *** _42_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:37:46  <peter1138> *sigh*
22:37:51  <peter1138> now i can't commit :P
22:38:03  <peter1138> got 2 to commit now
22:38:43  *** Tobin [] has quit [Quit: Tobin]
22:39:06  <hylje> :o
22:39:19  * Sacro slaps Patrick_ :)
22:42:21  *** Tobin [] has joined #openttd
22:42:27  <KUDr> aha, svn down..
22:42:49  *** Smoovious [] has joined #openttd
22:42:53  <Darkvater> o_O
22:43:10  <Darkvater> I cannot input U" or O" in text boxes because it would stick out
22:43:25  <hylje> :o
22:43:33  <Darkvater> so it cuts it off and I don't see it
22:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
22:43:57  <peter1138> smaller font? :P
22:44:21  *** Gentoo-Guy [~bj@] has joined #openttd
22:44:23  <Eddi|zuHause> entire use gone, remove the commit ;)
22:44:29  *** MeusH [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:44:38  <Gentoo-Guy> hey folks is there any way to change the resolution in openttd
22:44:42  *** Tobin [] has quit []
22:44:48  <Darkvater> Gentoo-Guy: resize the window?
22:44:57  <peter1138> or use the option in the options window
22:45:14  <Gentoo-Guy> jep but muy problem is that tehres's only one optione
22:45:21  <Gentoo-Guy> *option
22:45:40  <Darkvater> hmm this towlower() sucks
22:45:42  <peter1138> the one which says "Ekran Çözünürlügü"
22:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that probably means it did not detect any others
22:45:49  <peter1138> i should switch back to english...
22:45:51  <Darkvater> can't even tolower A'
22:45:53  <Darkvater> ....
22:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks turkish, peter1138
22:46:16  <Gentoo-Guy> Darkvater, ain't it possible to run ex 800x600 when runnig fullscreen
22:46:21  <peter1138> apparently so
22:46:27  <KUDr> peter1138: how can i set some unicode font in win32?
22:46:30  <peter1138> yes, it is
22:46:40  <Darkvater> Gentoo-Guy: game options > resolution > pick one
22:46:53  <peter1138> but your X config needs to have those resolutions too
22:46:53  <Gentoo-Guy> yhe only one displyer is 1280x1024
22:47:02  <peter1138> i think
22:47:04  <Darkvater> KUDr: openttd.cfg > medium_font_size = c:\windows\fonts\tahoma.ttf
22:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> funnily, in german "getürkt" (== "turkified" or something) means "faked" ;)
22:47:05  <Gentoo-Guy> ahh okay
22:47:09  <peter1138> hmm, maybe not
22:47:22  <KUDr> Darkvater: thanks
22:47:22  <peter1138> KUDr: yeah, by specifying the full path, until fc support is added
22:47:34  <KUDr> ok
22:47:39  <glx> fc == fontconfig
22:47:57  <peter1138> maybe i broke it :P
22:47:58  <Darkvater> peter1138: or KUDr writes fontconfig for windows with windows fonts :)
22:47:59  <peter1138> svn that is
22:48:21  <peter1138> iirc glx had fontconfig working with windows
22:48:27  <peter1138> but i could've been imagining it
22:48:33  <glx> a pain to compile it :)
22:48:50  <peter1138> no pain no gain
22:51:21  <KUDr> Darkvater: into which section? (the font path)
22:51:29  <Darkvater> KUDr: run the game once, then shut down
22:51:33  <Darkvater> you will see it there
22:52:14  <peter1138> so, uh
22:52:17  <peter1138> who to ping?
22:52:40  * Darkvater pings truelight
22:52:46  <KUDr> Darkvater: nope
22:53:11  <Darkvater> KUDr: well you do have to compile with WITH_FREETYPE
22:53:18  <KUDr> ahh
22:53:19  <Darkvater> and add libfreetype2.lib
22:53:22  <Darkvater> and the headers
22:53:26  *** Neonox [] has quit [Quit: bin wech....]
22:53:28  <Darkvater> it's in I believe
22:53:30  <KUDr> ughh
22:53:40  <HMage> how about setlocale() to UTF8?
22:53:41  <Darkvater> hmm, truelight is offline :(
22:53:42  <peter1138> more dependencies :D
22:54:00  <HMage> then tolower() should work
22:54:04  *** Gentoo-Guy [~bj@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:54:24  <HMage> or we need an utf8 lib for tolower() and other stuff
22:54:34  <Darkvater> HMage: no it doesnt, towlower is local independent
22:54:54  <Darkvater> eh by mad
22:55:01  <Darkvater> it's locale-specific
22:55:05  <Darkvater> it still doesn't work though
22:55:47  <HMage> towlower would need everything processed in UTF-16 internally
22:56:17  <Darkvater> that is not the problem, if I give it a wide-char it still does not convert it if it's not ASCII (english)
22:56:52  <KUDr> Darkvater: tolower() doesn't support utf-8
22:57:03  <KUDr> so you must use W version
22:57:24  <Darkvater> ...
22:57:27  <KUDr> aha
22:57:36  <peter1138> make your mind up :)
22:57:42  <Darkvater> I've been doing that all along
22:57:55  <Darkvater> decodeutf8 > towlower > *paf*
22:58:10  <KUDr> try API function (not crt)
22:58:28  <Darkvater> which one is that?
22:58:37  <KUDr> wait..
22:58:44  <HMage> decodeutf8() ?
22:59:57  <KUDr> CharToLowerW
23:00:00  <Darkvater> he, svn really is dead
23:00:07  <HMage> KUDr: it's only win32
23:00:11  <KUDr> yes
23:00:25  <Darkvater> it's not on msdn?
23:00:28  <KUDr> API is always OS dependent
23:00:39  <KUDr> it is in MSDN
23:00:45  <Darkvater>
23:00:52  <KUDr> static wchar_t CharToLower(
23:00:52  <KUDr>    wchar_t x
23:00:52  <KUDr> );
23:00:55  <Darkvater> I donnu...that pretty clearly says a 'no'
23:01:06  <KUDr> ask there without this W
23:01:08  <Darkvater> without w :)
23:01:14  <KUDr> but call it with W
23:01:40  <HMage> and we break windows 98 compatibility completely
23:01:44  <glx> I found CharLower() in msdn
23:01:53  <HMage> (there are no *W functions on win98)
23:02:07  <glx> HMage: there are throug MSLU
23:02:17  <HMage> unicows.dll
23:02:24  <KUDr> HMage: need unicode pack
23:02:34  <KUDr> then it works on W98
23:02:35  <peter1138> make a table of characters and do it manually ;)
23:02:44  <Darkvater> he
23:02:44  <KUDr> hehehe
23:02:53  <HMage> unicows.dll suffers a little from license problems
23:03:18  <Darkvater> that is the user's problem
23:03:20  <KUDr> HMage: the i suggest to simply f*ck the Win9x
23:03:37  <Darkvater> download: unicode support, don't download: no unicode support
23:03:45  <peter1138> meh
23:03:46  <KUDr> yes
23:03:49  <peter1138> i've been waiting to commit this fix
23:03:55  <Darkvater> and yes, win98 did work without MSLU
23:03:55  <peter1138> but as it's not coming back
23:04:10  <Darkvater> win95 only works 50-50 even with MSLU
23:04:14  <peter1138> unicode support isn't optional, heh
23:04:21  <peter1138> only freetype
23:05:09  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
23:06:42  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:09:04  <peter1138> so do i wait, or give up and go to sleep?
23:10:03  <Darkvater> so, sent mail to TL
23:11:04  <KUDr> good idea :)
23:11:16  <KUDr> when whole site is down ;)
23:11:46  <peter1138> feh, he should know
23:11:56  <peter1138> automatically
23:12:12  <Darkvater> you broke it :O
23:12:14  <peter1138> i'm reduced to looking at livejournal
23:12:22  <peter1138> lies
23:12:35  <peter1138> it broke a good 20 minutes after ;p
23:12:47  <Darkvater> it was you!
23:14:59  * peter1138 unpacks fgfs terrain and fills his hdd up
23:21:37  <Darkvater> so
23:21:43  <Darkvater> while everyone is bored...
23:22:06  <Darkvater>
23:22:32  *** Gorre [] has quit [Quit: *s1gh*]
23:22:40  <Darkvater> questions/problems/suggestions? Only function I'm not so happy about is FindFreeWindow
23:23:15  <Darkvater> it needs to find an unused window in the _windows[] array. Does this by looping each window and seeing if it's in _z_windows[] because there is nothing else to go by
23:24:45  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish]
23:27:20  <KUDr> Darkvater: sorry, it was CharLowerW (supported also by the Microsoft Layer for Unicode - MSLU)
23:27:57  <KUDr> or CharLowerBuffW for whole string
23:29:17  <Darkvater> too bad it's windows only
23:29:27  <KUDr> of course :)
23:29:31  <Darkvater> anyways I've made it to only convert single-characters (< 128)
23:29:34  <KUDr> its api
23:29:35  <glx> KUDr: CharLower() converts the whole string in place
23:29:43  <Darkvater> since it's actuall not need for windows but *nix
23:29:44  <KUDr> aha
23:29:47  <KUDr> good
23:29:51  <Darkvater> +y
23:30:01  <KUDr> aha
23:30:07  <KUDr> bad
23:30:57  <KUDr> why it is not needed on windows? it has the same problem with small font or not?
23:31:11  <Darkvater> no, the function is used for filenames
23:31:22  <Darkvater> eg when you cannot open it tries
23:31:28  <KUDr> aha
23:31:28  <Darkvater> has nothing to do with the small font
23:31:39  <peter1138> how many utf8 data files are there?
23:31:41  <KUDr> got it
23:31:46  <Darkvater> ;p
23:32:53  <HMage> Darkvater: you need to call setlocale(LC_CTYPE, "");
23:33:07  <glx> hmm many unfinished lang files don't have svn:eol-style set
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23:33:52  <HMage> Darkvater: after calling setlocale(LC_CTYPE, ""), the functions towlower() and such will work as intended.
23:33:59  <Gentoo-Guy> hey is there a logical explanaition of why the orders functions isn't working properl
23:34:14  <Darkvater> HMage: are you sure?
23:34:21  <HMage> yes, I can give you a test example
23:34:24  <peter1138> "" being what locale? :p
23:34:32  <glx> Gentoo-Guy: explain "not working properly"
23:34:46  <Darkvater> HMage: do it with U", A'
23:34:50  <HMage> if you did read docs for setlocale(), it means "disable hardcoded 7-bit string functions"
23:34:57  <Gentoo-Guy> my trains don't follow the orders that i have specified
23:35:44  <HMage> Gentoo-Guy: version, savegame?
23:35:51  <KUDr> Gentoo-Guy: punish them!
23:36:21  <HMage> Darkvater: what is U" and A' ?
23:36:21  <Gentoo-Guy> i have 3 stations 2 load at line ends and unload in the middle and the trins only drive from the midlle og to one of the end
23:36:44  <Darkvater> HMage: U with " above
23:36:45  <glx> Ü À
23:36:50  <Darkvater> .
23:36:55  <HMage> Darkvater: I tested it on russian
23:36:57  <Gentoo-Guy> v 0.4.8 no savegame
23:37:12  <Gentoo-Guy> KUDr,  punish them ??
23:37:13  <Darkvater> ?
23:37:35  <HMage> if you can give me UTF16 code for umlauts, I'll test them too.
23:37:36  <KUDr> Gentoo-Guy: yes, take big hammer and hit them on your monitor
23:37:45  <Gentoo-Guy> :D
23:38:00  <peter1138> why does Darkvater's look different to glx's?
23:38:09  <peter1138> oh, i see
23:38:24  <Darkvater> U+0170?c5 b0LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH DOUBLE ACUTE
23:38:24  <peter1138> Ü != ?
23:38:31  <Darkvater> peter1138: ?
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23:38:41  <Darkvater> peter1138: which one do you see correctly?
23:38:44  <Darkvater> mine or his?
23:38:44  <peter1138> both
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23:38:52  <peter1138> they're just different
23:38:53  <Gentoo-Guy> HMage, v 0.4.8 no savegame
23:38:53  <KUDr> Ü
23:39:01  <Gentoo-Guy> ?
23:39:05  <Darkvater> all I see is a grey-box
23:39:10  <Gentoo-Guy> ?
23:39:17  <HMage> because they send it using different codepages?
23:39:39  <HMage> I don't see it properly neither from Darkvater, neither from glx
23:39:40  <glx> my client uses utf-8
23:39:54  <Darkvater> I set putty to utf8 as well
23:40:06  <HMage> mine is configured to cp1251, which is de facto standard on IRC's
23:40:15  <peter1138> for you maybe
23:40:19  <HMage> yup
23:40:25  <Darkvater> that wont' show you ????
23:40:49  <glx> japanese chars?
23:40:51  <HMage> I have to choose, either I talk in russian, or I talk to foreigners which use umlauts.
23:40:55  <Darkvater> :)
23:41:00  <peter1138> besides, codepages are a windows thing
23:41:35  <HMage> if I select utf8, I can't talk to anyone in russian. If I select cp1251, I can talk to russians properly (I live in moscow)
23:41:36  <peter1138> everyone else just uses either iso8859-1 -> 15 or utf8
23:41:44  <peter1138> uh
23:42:10  <HMage> this is because windows is too popular here, cp1251 is being pushed everywhere.
23:42:34  <HMage> I had to reconfigure my debian for cp1251 too
23:43:14  <peter1138> how does cp1251 differ from iso8859-5 anyway?
23:43:28  <HMage> cp1251 allows cyrillic letters, iso8859-5 doesn't have any
23:43:43  <HMage> er, iso8859-5!
23:43:48  <HMage> i've read -15
23:43:55  <HMage> iso8859-5 isn't very widespread
23:44:23  <peter1138> bah, everyone should use utf8
23:44:29  <HMage> in soviet times, iso things weren't even here in computing. Before windows, it was cp866 on DOS and KOI8 on unixes.
23:44:50  <HMage> koi8 is still default on all russian linux distros
23:45:07  <HMage> if they don't do that they'll get a lot of people complaining
23:45:13  <Darkvater> indeed, setloale "" works
23:45:23  <peter1138> ?????
23:45:29  <Darkvater> so crappy MSDN doesn't mention that
23:45:29  <glx> ? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? and english at the same time :)
23:45:46  <HMage> they do, but in very small letters :)
23:46:04  <glx> but it's really hard to type russian on a french keyboard :D
23:46:07  <Eddi|zuHause> wodka... maybe a good idea ;)
23:46:08  <HMage> and with wording that confuses everyone
23:46:10  * Darkvater reads page again
23:46:26  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: that appeared as ? here...
23:46:48  <HMage> Darkvater: search for "The following examples pertain to LC_ALL category..."
23:46:54  <Darkvater> "The case conversion of towlower is locale-specific" << all I see
23:47:08  <HMage> load setlocale() page
23:47:20  <HMage> or better, don't use MSDN, use unix manpages
23:47:51  <HMage> Microsoft can't risk breaking unix compatibility at source level, so unix way will work on windows too.
23:48:16  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: dunno why (all chars are correctly displayed here)
23:48:22  <Gentoo-Guy> if i have an idea for the game where can i suggest it
23:48:25  <HMage> glx: I've got questionmarks here too
23:48:44  <Darkvater> it's so gay...I'm supposed to go to another page where there is no mention at all in tolower and play around there...bah
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23:49:23  <HMage> Darkvater: they even do provide misleading wording - "Sets the locale to the default, which is the system-default ANSI code page obtained from the operating system."
23:49:35  <HMage> (that's for setlocale(LC_CTYPE, ""))
23:49:47  <peter1138>
23:49:49  <peter1138> hmz
23:49:50  <Darkvater> yeah; that tells me absolutely nothing
23:50:22  <HMage> - I'm an unix guy, this page is a lot better.
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23:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that was an empty box from peter1138 (probably not in the font)
23:50:31  <Sacro> ???? ?????
23:50:41  <Darkvater> smirnoff :)
23:50:44  <HMage> Sacro: looks like shift-jis or such
23:50:52  <Sacro> ????????
23:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and i need a magnification glass for sacro...
23:51:03  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause: U+01C4, latin capital letter DZ with caron
23:51:10  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: thats narsty
23:51:16  <HMage> À òåïåðü ìîÿ î÷åðåäü ïèñàòü íà ðóññêîì :)
23:51:23  <Sacro> HMage: beg pardon?
23:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and that was not utf 8
23:51:28  <Darkvater> random?
23:51:28  <HMage> that was in russian
23:51:31  <peter1138> HMage: it was utf-8
23:51:40  <Sacro> HMage: not russian chars
23:51:41  <Darkvater> 00:51 < HMage> ? òåïåðü ìîÿ î÷åðåäü ïèñàòü íà ðóññêîì :)
23:51:45  <HMage> peter1138: it was cp1251
23:51:52  <glx> doesn't look russian :)
23:51:58  <peter1138> i meant sacro's line
23:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well, nobody here uses 1251
23:52:07  <Sacro> Darkvater: hmm, it went from an A with a ` on top, to a hashed out sqaure
23:52:12  <Darkvater> 00:51 < HMage> . ...... ... ....... ...... .. ....... :)
23:52:15  <Darkvater> eek
23:52:35  <HMage> most widespread character set around IRC's, all russians on quakenet use cp1251. RusNet is a little bit better, but most connections go to cp1251 port.
23:52:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that supposed to be morse? :p
23:53:06  <peter1138> most widespread character set on irc is probably plain iso8859-1
23:53:20  <HMage> peter1138: sorry... I meant among russians.
23:53:25  <peter1138> right
23:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as mirc 6.17 came out, everybody i know switched to utf-8
23:53:36  <peter1138> that needs to change ;p
23:53:42  * peter1138 nods
23:53:48  <Darkvater> mirc :s
23:53:51  <Sacro> theres a lot more russians than there is peter1138's
23:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> because mirc not supporting it was the only reason to not use utf-8
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23:54:28  <HMage> peter1138: it's a very hard and long way to go. I know that most developers even avoid utf8 due to complications in character handling.
23:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and too many people out there use mirc
23:54:37  <Sacro> bash: æ: command not found
23:55:25  <HMage> regarding cp1251 (for anyone interested or bored enough)
23:55:54  <Eddi|zuHause> we probably don't care about 1251 :)
23:56:00  <HMage> yup :)
23:56:07  <peter1138> 3 ÷ 12 = Œ
23:56:09  <peter1138> hurr
23:56:14  <Darkvater> haha
23:56:21  <HMage> just be prepared that entries in webtranslator will show up as cp1251, even though the page is in utf8
23:56:22  <glx> lol
23:56:30  <HMage> (if you'll do russian of course there)
23:56:41  <HMage> IE6 is known to force cp1251
23:57:35  <peter1138> nice, totally incompatible with latin5
23:58:00  <Darkvater> hmm, what harms can be introduced by putting setlocale(LC_TYPE, "") in ttd_main?
23:58:14  <Eddi|zuHause> but this is kinda strange, because exactly people who often switch between character sets (e.g. cyrillic <-> latin) utf-8 should be great
23:58:45  <Eddi|zuHause> +for

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