Config
Log for #openttd on 10th December 2006:
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00:01:56  <Darkvater> hmm does a makefile support syntax like
00:02:11  <Darkvater> ifdef A || b
00:02:12  <Darkvater> ?
00:05:23  <Darkvater> hmm guess not
00:06:14  <CasB> Yes you can, i think
00:06:22  <CasB> Did a quick google: http://makepp.sourceforge.net/1.18/syntax_makefile.html#conditionals
00:06:52  <Darkvater> don't see it
00:06:54  <CasB> hmmz, that's makepp, not what you're looking for I guess
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00:11:32  <Darkvater> hmm so what's the syntax for
00:11:33  <Darkvater> if a
00:11:35  <Darkvater> else if b
00:11:41  <Darkvater> else c
00:11:41  <Darkvater> endif
00:11:57  <glx> win32.c: In function `OTTDSHGetFolderPath':
00:12:00  <glx> win32.c:1113: warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules
00:12:37  <Darkvater> well that's his problem, can't do anything aout that
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00:20:36  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7461 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: [FS#262] Add support for building with GCC on OS/2 (psmedley)
00:21:38  <Darkvater> gn all :)
00:21:42  <CasB> nn
00:21:50  <CasB> truste :P
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00:25:40  <DoZzzZzzy> lol i found a bug :D:D
00:25:59  <glx> what is it?
00:27:05  <DoZzzZzzy> wenn the train driver under sea level , and its in the middle , then put water on it , and the server crashes
00:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> that sentence did not parse
00:28:51  <DoZzzZzzy> well u make a track under sea level
00:29:03  <DoZzzZzzy> wenn the train passes , u put water on the side of it
00:29:30  <glx> oh I see :)
00:29:37  <glx> yapf doesn't like that
00:31:29  <DoZzzZzzy> strange =D
00:34:14  <Sacro_> Darkvater: ifdef a, elsedef ifdef b endif (b) endif
00:34:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> possibly a missed yapf cache update?
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00:39:53  <glx> hmm it may have been fixed :)
00:40:09  <glx> DoZzzZzzy: what version are you using ?
00:40:16  <DoZzzZzzy> 4.8
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00:49:14  <CIA-1> glx * r7462 /trunk/newgrf.c: -Fix: when doing comparison in action 7/9, mask the param value so it has the 'same' size as the value it is compared to
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01:01:07  <CasB> nn all
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02:11:26  <Belugas_Gone> Dalestan, ping
02:11:39  <Belugas_Gone> ... hoping you are around like now...
02:11:53  <DaleStan> Belugas_Gone: pong
02:17:29  <Belugas_Gone> hello
02:18:15  <Belugas_Gone> can you please tell me exactly what line 3118 in ttrs3 actually means?
02:18:46  <Belugas_Gone> what is this var 81 it seems to be referring?
02:19:19  <Belugas_Gone> sorry for the dealy onmy part, i was reading patch wiki ;)
02:21:24  <DaleStan> This is not documented, but the 00..3F range of action 2 variables correspond exactly to the 80..BF range of Action 7/9/D parameters.
02:22:47  <Belugas_Gone> you mean we can use eaxtly the same values, it would be fine?  nice...
02:23:02  <Belugas_Gone> thanks a lot:)
02:23:05  <DaleStan> So, that checks something that is probably the current year at the time of activation; I don't know enough to know when those values are guaranteed to be valid.
02:23:53  <Belugas_Gone> they are related to the two roadsets introduced
02:24:25  <DaleStan> Ah. Then I'd guess it's an attempt to do variational roads.
02:24:45  <Belugas_Gone> attempt...  i like the word :)
02:25:21  <DaleStan> It won't work perfectly, obviously, but it's better than anything else currently possible.
02:25:35  <Belugas_Gone> as well as debugging a branch on a grf that seems to be not so perfect itself ;)
02:25:42  <Belugas_Gone> true DaleStan.
02:25:50  <Belugas_Gone> we just have to adapt to that
02:26:16  <Belugas_Gone> i thank you very much. once again, very helpfull :)
02:26:21  <Belugas_Gone> good night sir
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08:03:56  <GhostBear> Hello guys!
08:03:59  <GhostBear> I'm new!
08:04:52  <GhostBear> May I ask you about game?
08:04:59  <GhostBear> you -> someone
08:05:17  *** tormentum [~adam@dsl-202-72-142-139.wa.westnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
08:05:26  <GhostBear> -.-
08:05:30  <GhostBear> I think no...
08:06:22  <GhostBear> Oh! Why everybody dead?
08:07:50  <ThePizzaKing> I'm afraid so
08:08:02  <GhostBear> ThePizzaKing, hello!
08:08:09  <ThePizzaKing> hello
08:08:12  <tormentum> mm it's true... ottd kills
08:08:25  <ThePizzaKing> hehehe
08:08:38  <ThePizzaKing> What did you want to know?
08:08:46  <ThePizzaKing> I *might* be able to help
08:09:48  <GhostBear> Sorry, but i'm n00bie :P
08:09:59  <GhostBear> How can i help translate game?
08:10:02  <GhostBear> (Russia)
08:11:05  <GhostBear> -.-
08:11:10  <GhostBear> Thanks...
08:11:21  <tormentum> hrm
08:11:26  <tormentum> i think there is some info in the wiki about it
08:11:31  <tormentum> i'll see if i can find it
08:12:15  <ThePizzaKing> This page seems to give some information: http://translator2.openttd.org/
08:12:17  <GhostBear> THere wrote to ask development team
08:12:43  <tormentum> most the core developers seem to be offline at the moment GhostBear
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08:14:35  <GhostBear> too bad...
08:14:52  <GhostBear> Is someone else tried to translate game into Russian? oO
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08:15:37  <tormentum> GhostBear: http://translator2.openttd.org/languages/GlobalStat
08:17:02  <GhostBear> Hm... 89% completed... good...
08:17:12  <GhostBear> So i think my help isn't necessary
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08:32:56  <GhostBear> shit
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08:47:49  <Wolf01> morning
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10:13:25  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7463 /trunk/settings.c: -Codechange: Don't load invalid NewGRF files from the configuration file; instead show a warning.
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10:36:19  <Wolf01> doh, i autoreplaced all trains instead one line only
10:36:30  <Wolf01> now i must convert all to elrails
10:36:35  <peter1138> hehe
10:37:22  <Wolf01> why not an "autoreplace all trains with this schedule"?
10:37:48  <peter1138> because autoreplace would need to be heavily modified
10:38:05  <peter1138> and the gui would become... hmm
10:38:58  <Wolf01> we may re-use the refit order
10:39:52  <Wolf01> and maybe use "null" to say that a vehicle shouldn't autoreplace instead of loop in the same vehicle
10:41:35  <Wolf01> and why not merge my "more transparency options" in trunk? is so usefull
10:42:36  <Wolf01> stupid buildings, i can't see my custom station in the middle of the city
10:42:42  <peter1138> hehe
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11:21:29  <Darkvater> morning
11:22:00  <Rubidium> morning Darkvater
11:22:32  <Rubidium> have played a little with the svn & MSVC problem and came up with: http://rubidium.student.utwente.nl/openttd/svn_and_MSVC.diff
11:23:15  <Rubidium> don't know how well it will work on all kinds of computers and especially whether it will work for computers without windows scripting support.
11:23:29  <Rubidium> (the diff is against MakefileRewrite by the way)
11:24:00  <Darkvater> Rubidium: I've asked it as well in #svn they say it's not possible to do it with keywords; so then I gave up
11:24:05  <Darkvater> but let's see what you came up with
11:24:58  <Darkvater> ugh vbs eh
11:25:00  <Darkvater> been there
11:25:21  <peter1138> Couldn't find NewGRF 00000000 (openttd.grf) checksum 00000000000000
11:25:22  <peter1138> hehe
11:25:24  <Rubidium> it only finds the proper version if you've got the svn command line tools installed; otherwise it will just use 'norev000'
11:25:39  <Darkvater> that's pretty useless
11:25:51  <Darkvater> about 90% don't have the command line tools but tortoise
11:26:37  <Rubidium> true...
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11:27:12  <Rubidium> maybe we can make an executable that uses the svn libraries that tortoise must use as well as the command line tools
11:28:07  <Darkvater> Rubidium: this is what I had
11:28:08  <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/rev.vbs
11:28:10  <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/rev.bat
11:29:28  <Rubidium> that doesn't handle branches
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11:29:43  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7464 /trunk/ (newgrf_config.c newgrf_config.h newgrf_gui.c):
11:29:43  <CIA-1> -Codechange: move BuildParamList from newgrf_gui to newgrf_config and
11:29:43  <CIA-1> prefix with GRF.
11:29:56  <Darkvater> Rubidium: tortoisesvn has a SubWCRev.exe command line tool that is supposed to work
11:30:03  <peter1138> something ought to tell my svn client that it's committed...
11:30:10  <peter1138> stuck on Transmitting :/
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11:30:28  * Rubidium starts VMWare
11:30:32  <Darkvater> but don't think this is worth the trouble, I'll just remove the $Id$ from openttd.rc and we're done
11:33:13  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7465 /trunk/settings.c: -Codechange: Save the default GRF configuration.
11:36:37  <peter1138> no config editing for default grfs neede
11:36:39  <peter1138> +d
11:37:41  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7466 /trunk/win32.c: -Cleanup: [win32] Coding style, indentation, variable localization.
11:38:06  <Darkvater> hmm my client hangs as well...
11:38:23  <peter1138> hangs?
11:38:30  <peter1138> oh, on sending? hmm
11:38:37  <Darkvater> don't say 'transation complete' and 'ok' is disabled
11:38:41  <peter1138> see, i'd forgotten already...
11:39:10  <Darkvater> ah there we go..sjeesh
11:39:16  <peter1138> *nod*
11:40:58  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7467 /trunk/win32.c:
11:40:58  <CIA-1> -Cleanup: [win32] Disable the submit-savegame-on-crash code as we (webserver)
11:40:58  <CIA-1>  doesn't do anything with it and the button has been disabled for ages.
11:41:55  <Bjarni> I *have* been thinking about the bug report about lack of aging of non-front train vehicles. Now we can fix it as autorenew should already be able to autorenew vehicles even if they aren't the front one
11:42:15  <peter1138> you *have*?
11:42:26  <Darkvater> it has nothing to do with autorenew
11:42:41  <Bjarni> when autorenew only worked for the front one, it would have been a pain to replace all engines manually
11:42:47  <Darkvater> you just need the tick-handler to not only age the <front vehicle
11:42:57  <Bjarni> yeah, have. People tend to make fun of my choice of have/has
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11:43:03  <peter1138> oh, i see :)
11:43:08  <peter1138> hehe
11:43:14  <Darkvater> Bjarni always sayd 'have'
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11:43:28  <peter1138> i have, we have, it have
11:43:29  <Bjarni> not true
11:43:39  <peter1138> hmm, damn, comments are wiped out ;p
11:44:09  <Darkvater> yes it have true!
11:44:20  <hylje> Bjarni: I HAS FOOD
11:44:29  <peter1138> sotp
11:44:40  <peter1138> bcak ot the sujbetc
11:44:55  <Bjarni> my point is that we once (ages ago) figured that we should postpone fixing this bug until we could autorenew all vehicles, not just the front one, so now I'm pointing out that the reason to postpone this is no longer valid
11:45:25  <Bjarni> My updated autoreplace got the sideeffect that it can handle this case as well :D
11:45:51  <Bjarni> not all version of autoupgrade, just the current one
11:45:59  <Bjarni> (which should be good enough)
11:46:53  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7468 /trunk/ (win32.c win32.h):
11:46:53  <CIA-1> -Codechange: [win32] Add some comments to MB/WIDE_TO_WIDE/MB_[BUFFER] macros and
11:46:53  <CIA-1>  use them some more in win32 code. Also for the clipboard use the convert_from_fs
11:46:53  <CIA-1>  function instead of calling Win32 API directly. Make the static buffers in OTTD2FS
11:46:53  <CIA-1>  and FS2OTTD the same size (character-length wise)
11:47:17  * Darkvater is about done with 0.5
11:47:29  <Darkvater> just a minor elrails conversion issue I will talk to KUDr about
11:47:32  <Darkvater> peter1138: your progress?
11:48:53  <KUDr> hello master
11:48:59  <Bjarni> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/431 <-- anybody thought of a place to add this option (in company window or something)?
11:50:01  <Darkvater> Bjarni: not yet, we need some wippies
11:50:03  <Darkvater> KUDr: mornin
11:50:29  <peter1138> Rubidium has a patch i need to go through for it
11:50:48  <Darkvater> ah the server version..yes
11:51:39  <Rubidium> patches for the masterserver, openttd itself and the website
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11:52:01  <Maedhros> morning
11:52:22  <Darkvater> hi
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11:54:37  <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/screenshot.png
11:54:53  <Darkvater> too red? too wide?
11:55:16  <peter1138> hmm
11:55:16  <KUDr> both :)
11:55:23  <Maedhros> too red, but otherwise good :)
11:55:32  <peter1138> should i preserve comments in the [newgrf] config section?
11:55:58  <Darkvater> or just leave the colour, centre and make it bit narrower
11:56:09  <peter1138> remove the button
11:56:13  <peter1138> no-one should quit :D
11:56:14  <Darkvater> peter1138: they're reserved now, why remove it
11:56:49  <KUDr> or do quit on any key pressed :)
11:57:40  <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/screenshot.png
11:57:43  <Darkvater> (refresh)
11:57:55  <Darkvater> dammit '~' doesn't remove console on screenshot
11:58:01  <Darkvater> I hate that
11:58:42  <KUDr> hmm, red was better
12:00:42  <Darkvater> consensus?
12:02:46  <peter1138> Darkvater: cos preserving them appears to be a pain
12:03:17  <Darkvater> hmm what have you changed?
12:03:26  <Darkvater> I see lots of people having comments in there
12:03:33  <peter1138> indeed
12:03:39  <peter1138> i made it save the config
12:03:46  <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/openttd.cfg
12:03:48  <peter1138> 'cept by doing that it wipes out the comments, of course
12:03:49  <peter1138> so
12:03:56  <Darkvater> I got from some bugreport
12:04:13  <peter1138> problem is the comments are not standalone
12:04:27  <peter1138> they be tied to an entry
12:04:55  <Darkvater> hmm now the cfg is just buggy
12:05:03  <peter1138> hmm?
12:05:15  <Darkvater> I quit openttd with head, and most of the comments are gone, yet some remained
12:06:06  <Darkvater> if you look at the link you see #newshipsw.grf
12:06:18  <Darkvater> that's gone
12:06:20  <Darkvater> but
12:06:23  <Darkvater> # ---- others ----
12:06:23  <Darkvater> #mars.grf
12:06:23  <Darkvater> #ccol2w.grf
12:06:23  <Darkvater> #pb_ukrsi.grf
12:06:26  <Darkvater> stayed?
12:06:39  *** CasB|z [~casb@ip145-160-173-82.adsl2.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:06:57  <peter1138> *nod*
12:07:04  <peter1138> they're the last comments
12:07:07  <peter1138> hmm
12:07:27  <peter1138> they're tied to the group, not an entry
12:07:30  <Darkvater> this needs solving
12:07:34  <peter1138> yup
12:08:06  <peter1138> comments within lists that are saved get wiped out too
12:08:32  <peter1138> ban list and servers list
12:08:40  <Darkvater> the comments in [patches] do stay
12:08:52  <Darkvater> ah lists in general
12:08:54  <peter1138> who wrote this system? heh
12:08:56  <Darkvater> then it's not your fault ;)
12:09:04  * Darkvater points at dominik
12:09:09  <peter1138> yes, because patches doesn't remove items
12:09:13  <peter1138> it only ever adds
12:09:29  <peter1138> but lists are cleared first
12:09:46  <peter1138> the fact that comments are tied to entries a bit troublesome
12:10:41  <Darkvater> hmm I'll be back soon and will have a look at that
12:10:47  <Darkvater> do newgrf-mp first
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12:12:30  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7469 /trunk/openttd.c: -Fix (r7348): NewGRF settings weren't loaded in cases.
12:18:20  * peter1138 off
12:18:22  <peter1138> bbiab
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12:31:24  <znikoz> when i can see cyrilic(ukrainian,bulgarian,russian) in ottd?  now i see only ?????? ???????? ??????
12:31:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> you have to load russianw.grf, or specify a font in openttd.cfg
12:33:17  <znikoz> russianw.grf.... where is it for download?
12:33:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> grfcrawler, i assume... or search the forum
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13:50:46  <Darkvater> KUDr: ping
13:51:11  <KUDr> pong
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14:24:38  <peter1138> back
14:24:50  <Darkvater> wb
14:25:16  <Darkvater> ey peter1138 question :)
14:25:30  <peter1138> hmm?
14:25:41  <Darkvater> what do you think should happen if one loads a 0.4.8 savegame in which you used electric engines
14:25:56  <Darkvater> should the whole map be converted to elrails tracks or
14:26:00  <peter1138> hmm
14:26:12  <Darkvater> whole map converted, but this conversion hidden so everything appears as it was before
14:26:23  <peter1138> elrailify
14:26:31  <Darkvater> (and you can show the changes with the patch setting)
14:26:33  <peter1138> i thought that's what it did
14:26:37  <Darkvater> yes
14:26:39  <Darkvater> but I mean
14:26:42  <Darkvater> elrailify
14:26:51  <Darkvater> or elrailify + merge normal+elrails
14:26:52  <Brianetta> use the pathfinder to electrify all the tracks as needed (:
14:27:08  <peter1138> hmm
14:27:18  <peter1138> not merge
14:27:37  <peter1138> can be merged with the patch option, i think?
14:27:39  <Darkvater> eg merge as in: allow electric run on normal rail as it was before you upgraded your savegame
14:28:14  <Darkvater> yes; the question is if this merge should happen on load so the user doesn't notice a thing, or a user has to do this manually
14:28:28  <Brianetta> special case: Send all 100% electric trains to depot.  Give them the ability to traverse regular track until they get there.
14:28:30  <peter1138> well
14:28:44  <peter1138> i'd say it depends on what that patch option is before the game is loaded
14:28:45  <Darkvater> Brianetta: that's waaay too much work
14:28:45  <peter1138> but...
14:28:52  <Darkvater> it's undefined
14:28:52  <Brianetta> (-:
14:29:15  <Darkvater> because the patch option didn't exist in the old version
14:29:42  <peter1138> so it'll default to whatever is set, right?
14:29:50  <Darkvater> no
14:29:55  <Rubidium> isn't it possible to use the _patches_newgame variable for that when loading an old savegame?
14:29:55  <peter1138> hmm
14:30:07  <Darkvater> at the moment: game before elrails was introduced: merge elrails
14:30:30  <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/optional_elrails.png
14:30:36  <Darkvater> donnu how much sense this makes
14:30:58  <glx> Darkvater: http://glx.dnsalias.net:8080/openttd/win32_warning.diff <-- fixes win32.c:1109: warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules
14:31:15  <Darkvater> glx: lol
14:31:24  <glx> same as in sdl.c :)
14:31:30  <Darkvater> it is? who did that?
14:32:01  <Darkvater> if that's the only fix for the warning I'd rather not have it
14:33:02  <glx> the warning is only for release builds
14:33:08  <glx> (mingw)
14:33:17  <Darkvater> that fix is really bogus
14:33:22  <Darkvater> it's like doing the following:
14:33:28  <peter1138> yes
14:33:33  <peter1138> casts are almost never the right fix
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14:33:42  <Darkvater> const char *a; char *b = (char*)(void*)a;
14:34:37  <peter1138> aww, my server's at 2053 :/
14:34:41  <peter1138> i missed most of this game :(
14:34:43  <Darkvater> I can fix everything with a void* cast
14:34:55  <Brianetta> I don't understand void casts
14:35:17  <Darkvater> Brianetta: a void cast just say "this memory address points to anything"
14:35:46  <Darkvater> eg I could have char *a; Window *b = (Window*)(void*)a;
14:36:00  <Darkvater> (wouldn't even need the Window*)
14:37:17  <Darkvater> peter1138: about elrails? Make the elrail-upgrade visible by default or non-visible?
14:38:40  <Darkvater> hmm someone broke screenshot no_con
14:39:58  <Brianetta> I think that if rails are converted to erails, this should be made ovvious to the player.
14:40:32  <Brianetta> After elrails made it to the trunk, the first saved game I loaded, I spent half an hour unelectrifying my relif lines fo rthe sake of realism.
14:42:39  <Darkvater> well we can also _not_ electrify the tracks and have electric trains run on normal rail; just when you enable elrails then all your electric trains will 'die'
14:43:20  <peter1138> i say
14:43:24  <peter1138> electrify the tracks
14:43:26  <peter1138> make it visible
14:43:35  * ln- agrees with peter1138
14:44:14  <ln-> and at the same moment disable the ability to build regular tracks.
14:44:29  <hylje> why
14:45:36  <ln-> hylje: why why? if we are talking about disabling the effects that elrails have on gameplay.
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14:46:35  <Brianetta> 14:44 <ln-> and at the same moment disable the ability to build regular tracks.
14:46:38  <Brianetta> That's lame
14:46:42  <Brianetta> you might as well not have elrails
14:47:05  <ln-> or any kind of rails
14:47:06  <Brianetta> I don't only build elrails once they're available, even though they're the same proce
14:48:15  <peter1138> heh
14:48:19  <peter1138> we should fix that :)
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14:48:58  <Digitalfox> Hi everybody :)
14:49:28  <peter1138> i electrified my express line after seeing that the pendolino is cheaper to run than the voyager
14:49:34  <Ben_123> Spam in the opennttd Graphics Section (I think)
14:49:42  <ln-> what are we talking about?
14:49:52  <HMage> you know, that makes actually no difference whether there's electric rails or not, if it'll be this way. Not that I liked the elrails patch, but disabling normal rails the moment electric ones are available just removes them from the gameplay.
14:49:57  <ln-> are we talking about making elrails optional, or what?
14:50:22  <peter1138> ln-: they're already optional
14:50:38  <peter1138> we're talking about whether they are enabled or not with old savegames
14:50:58  <peter1138> and that's only by default. it'll be toggleable
14:51:34  <HMage> imho it's better if it's not enabled when loading old save games, just overwrite the patch setting with disabled. That way the old games aren't broken.
14:51:58  <peter1138> HMage: old games aren't broken with the patch setting either way
14:52:19  <Darkvater> HMage: they aren't broken. What happened until elrails wasn't optional: if you have even a single electric engine all your nromal tracks were electrified
14:52:27  <HMage> when it's enabled either the looks are changed (they're converted to elrails automatically).
14:52:49  <ln-> "patch setting" ...
14:52:56  <HMage> this kind of putting things forcefully into someone's throat
14:53:02  <Darkvater> HMage: now that elrails are optional everything is still electrified, however this change is 'HIDDEN' (eg you don't see the catenary and electric trains can run on normal track)
14:53:08  <ln-> can't you rename those damn "patch settings" to something more sensible?
14:53:19  <Digitalfox> I vote in being enabled by default, they are so much more fun..
14:53:21  <Darkvater> the question is if it should be 'hidden' or not and let the user do this hiding if he/she wishes
14:53:22  <peter1138> -patch would be good enough
14:54:44  <ln-> i say that catenary should be visible by default. if someone can't stand them, perhaps they should also remove the pantographs.
14:54:49  <HMage> Darkvater: what's the point of electrifying the track, hiding it from visibility, and letting the user have some problems why this track allows electric locomoties and other tracks don't?
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14:56:05  <Darkvater> HMage: eh it's merged, so the user won't have any problems
14:56:17  <Brianetta> Merge = evil
14:56:29  <Brianetta> Make it all 'lectric
14:56:42  <Brianetta> Make the player face up to the difference 9:
14:56:43  <Brianetta> (:
14:56:47  <HMage> ie all tracks become electrified? that's effective to disabling the elrails patch
14:56:51  <Brianetta> no
14:57:06  <Brianetta> They can still be unelectrified, and unelectrified lines can still be built
14:57:23  <Brianetta> and it should only be done if there are any trains that only ahve electric locomotives.
14:57:44  <HMage> an user who doesn't know that there were new type of rails would stumble why he can't build new sh30 engine
14:57:48  <Darkvater> ok anyone who hasn't tested current behaviour (nightlies for past 1-2 weeks) and older ones (months before) with old savgames, please refrain from commenting
14:58:03  <Brianetta> If they only have steam and iesel, or even a double-head diesel and electric, the lines should stay unelectrified.
14:58:21  <Darkvater> that includes both HMage and Brianetta
14:59:06  <HMage> Darkvater: I had loaded the game in trunk with an 0.4.8 savegame two weeks ago, the paths that were using electric locomotives were automatically converted to electric rails.
14:59:10  <Brianetta> Darkvater: Why would that include me?
14:59:18  <Darkvater> 15:58 < Brianetta> If they only have steam and iesel, or even a double-head diesel and electric, the lines should stay unelectrified.
14:59:24  <Darkvater> because that's already so ^
14:59:34  <Brianetta> I know
14:59:37  <Darkvater> HMage: no, ALL tracks were
14:59:40  <Brianetta> I'm not suggesting changes
14:59:47  <Brianetta> I'm suggesting my preferred state
15:00:07  <peter1138> i've stated mine :)
15:00:19  <HMage> what's the point of this conversation then?
15:00:43  <Mikachu> is the set of loaded newgrf files saved with the savegame?
15:00:56  <Darkvater> peter1138: what was yours? ;)
15:01:06  <Darkvater> kinda lost track of it in the discussion
15:01:13  <peter1138> Mikachu: yes
15:01:45  <HMage> I could suggest my preferred state too, but I'm kind of sure nobody would at least consider any changes in that direction.
15:01:48  <peter1138> Darkvater: visible by default
15:01:51  <Mikachu> how's it handled with network games?
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15:02:15  <Darkvater> HMage: what would it be?
15:02:16  <Darkvater> peter1138: ok
15:03:31  <HMage> Darkvater: disable elrails completely if it's old savegame, don't convert. Let the user decide later, he can turn on electric rails - even if it stops all electric locomotives running, he will be able to do a choice on his own.
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15:04:45  <Darkvater> HMage: that's a good way to be helpful to users :) Later in the game, let's say 1995 you will only use electric engines. You are suggesting for the user to have his whole network die and make him spend hours on trying to fix?
15:05:13  <hylje> its not like electrifying is hard
15:05:35  <HMage> Darkvater: I'm sure he know what's the risk is, and he can disable elrails later if he thinks he won't manage to convert a huge network.
15:05:57  <glx> hylje: you can't electrify if there is a train on the track
15:06:05  <hylje> i believe you can
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15:06:29  <Darkvater> you can't
15:06:48  <HMage> Plus, 1995 has only electric rails, the difference between patch presence and absence comes down to different rail graphics.
15:07:12  <HMage> so there's no motivation to turn on electric rails on a 0.4.8 savegame of year 1995.
15:07:30  <hylje> i just tested with a recent trunk
15:07:42  <hylje> unelectrified track can be changed with trains under
15:08:25  <HMage> hylje: Darkvater was talking about if an user suddenly enables electric rails midgame, electric trains will be on unelectrified tracks and unmovable
15:08:40  <hylje> yeah
15:08:50  <hylje> but doesnt change the fact that the rail can be electrified
15:08:54  <Darkvater> HMage: no Iwas talking about a user using 0.5 after 0.4.8
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15:09:30  <HMage> Darkvater: and if 0.5 disables elrails on 0.4.8 savegame.
15:10:02  <Darkvater> damn trains go so slowly into depots ;p
15:10:22  <Darkvater> hmm
15:11:46  *** HMage is now known as HMage`tea
15:14:48  <Darkvater> what if we don't upgrade track from before elrails to elrails and convert all running trains to railtype normal rail? You will have an inconsistency that your old trains will run on normal tracks, while the same trains, just built later will not
15:15:24  <Darkvater> that could also be a viable option..just a bit weird due to the inconsistency
15:18:44  <HMage`tea> nah, this consistency would confuse people that didn't know there is a new elrails feature.
15:19:22  <HMage`tea> inconsistency*.
15:19:55  <Brianetta> 15:06 <HMage> Plus, 1995 has only electric rails...
15:19:55  <Brianetta> eh?
15:20:14  <Darkvater> then we have 3 options
15:20:39  <HMage`tea> Brianetta: I meant that in 1995 there are no diesel locomotives (in default ttd), only electric ones
15:20:40  <Darkvater> 1. disable elrails for old saves completely (have them merged)
15:20:55  <Darkvater> 2. upgrade all rail to electric
15:21:10  <Brianetta> HMage`tea: That kind of excludes grf userss
15:21:21  <Darkvater> oh well
15:21:24  <ln-> if one has an electric locomotive in the middle of non-el rail, can it be moved using the power of the Force?
15:21:25  <Darkvater> someone else can tackle this
15:21:38  <Brianetta> Teleport the lot to depots (:
15:21:53  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7470 /trunk/ (elrail.c openttd.c): -Codechange: Leave elrails enabled after loading old (pre-optional) and very old (pre-elrails) games. Let the user manually disable if if undesired.
15:22:10  <Darkvater> http://darkvater.homeip.net/~tfarago/openttd/screenshot.png << do we like centred button?
15:22:55  <Darkvater> glx: if you want to commit something, remove the (void*) cast from sdl.c and anywhere else you find it in LoadLibraryList
15:23:39  <HMage`tea> Brianetta: the point was that if there are only electrified rails available, there's effectively no elrails patch in force.
15:23:56  <HMage`tea> er, if there are only electrified locomotives*
15:24:44  <Brianetta> and of course, players can't run old locos
15:25:34  <HMage`tea> Brianetta: in default ttd with no newgrf, they are phased out (unless of course you enable that locomotives don't expire) on 1995
15:25:52  *** Maedhros [~jc@host86-140-196-226.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:25:53  <Brianetta> No, they just become really unreliabvle
15:26:07  <Brianetta> and yes, expiry can be turned off
15:26:21  <HMage`tea> I'm afraid you missed my point completely.
15:26:32  <Progman> Darkvater: yes, the centred button is better than a "missing button"
15:26:32  <Brianetta> Remember, one day electric rails will have their build and maintenance costs balanced
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15:27:38  <HMage`tea> I would be better motivated in enabling electric rails if there were any bonuses for using them or penalties for not using them, as for now the game doesn't get richer with the patch enabled, just becomes more complex.
15:27:50  *** znikoz0 [1@165-20-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #openttd
15:28:12  <Brianetta> Balancing was at 0.7 on the roadmap, last time I looked
15:28:21  <CIA-1> Darkvater * r7471 /trunk/intro_gui.c: -Codechange: Centre the 'quit' button on the main menu.
15:28:29  *** ChrisM87 [~ChrisM@p54AC7402.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:28:33  <Brianetta> but the feature can't be balanced if it doesn't exist.
15:28:54  *** ChrisM87 [~ChrisM@p54AC7402.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
15:29:07  <HMage`tea> I agree with that, Biranetta.
15:29:10  <HMage`tea> Brianetta*
15:30:41  <HMage`tea> though some planning work is still possible for features that aren't implemented. Else it'd be too costly to build some applications.
15:31:21  <Darkvater> orudge`: can you ban this asshole 28884
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16:19:51  <Brianetta> Ploppable buildings (:
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16:41:57  <Wolf01> http://wolf01.game-host.org/OTTD_related/transparency_options_against_trunk_7469M.diff
16:41:58  <Wolf01> my more transparency options, updated to be merged in trunk, but need some work because is changed something which i don't know and it doesn't work, if somebody want to fix it i'll appreciate :)
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17:01:48  *** kampasky_ [pasky@nikam-dmz.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has joined #openttd
17:02:47  *** kampasky [pasky@nikam-dmz.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:08:41  *** lolman [~ubuntu@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
17:09:25  * lolman realises how stoopid he was trying to install Arch onto his main machine without trying it on non-essential ones forst
17:09:40  <lolman> (I screwed up gdm beyond all repair) :(
17:10:19  <lolman> Anyways...Any major OTTD additions since I was last here? :P
17:12:42  *** lolman is now known as AloneLolman
17:12:43  *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:12:50  <AloneLolman> :o
17:13:09  *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.159] has joined #openttd
17:13:24  <AloneLolman> helb: wb :)
17:16:09  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-83-100-186-94.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:16:30  <AloneLolman> :O
17:17:55  <CIA-1> glx * r7472 /branches/newhouses/ (59 files in 5 dirs): [NewHouses] -Sync with trunk r7422:r7469
17:18:18  *** lws1984 [~lws1984@ip68-9-157-1.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #openttd
17:18:29  <AloneLolman> lws1984: ello
17:18:53  <lws1984> hallo AloneLolman
17:19:11  *** AloneLolman is now known as lolman
17:19:30  * lolman got fed up of arch
17:19:32  <lolman> :P
17:20:06  <lolman> Sacro's gonna be annoyed cause I gave up so quickly lol
17:20:10  <lws1984> hah
17:20:20  <hylje> :>
17:20:25  <Wolf01> anybody have seen my patch?
17:20:30  <lws1984> i'm in the middle of installing Ubuntu on my laptop
17:20:48  <lolman> lws1984:  I'm installing ubuntu on this as I speak
17:21:22  <lws1984> cool
17:21:26  <hylje> lol, ubuntu
17:21:34  * lolman <3 live cds
17:22:10  <lws1984> bah
17:22:12  <lws1984> i made my own!
17:22:16  <lws1984> and i downloaded it myself!
17:22:19  <lolman> lmao
17:22:46  <lws1984> and i screwed up my partion table on my own, too
17:22:50  <lws1984> which is why it's not done yet
17:22:54  <lolman> Hehe
17:22:57  <lws1984> had to re-install OS X so i had my bootstrap or whatever
17:23:08  <lws1984> then throw Ubuntu on the other partition
17:23:14  <lolman> heh, Mac's are silly :P
17:23:23  <lws1984> Lies.
17:23:31  <lolman> troof :)
17:23:32  <lws1984> it's going to be even more übergeeky than it was before
17:23:34  <lws1984> i mean
17:23:39  <lws1984> a laptop named Enterprise
17:23:41  <lws1984> :p
17:23:51  <lolman> Nah
17:23:58  <lolman> Nebuchadnezzer is better :)
17:24:24  *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5772982.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
17:24:32  <lolman> Hmm
17:24:42  <lolman> This thing is stuck at configuring apt
17:24:57  <lolman> Think NTL are having issues again
17:25:11  <lolman> brb :)
17:25:15  <lws1984> sudo mv lolman /dev/null
17:25:17  <lws1984> :D
17:26:22  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-83-100-186-94.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:27:22  *** lws1984 is now known as lws|Away
17:27:32  <lolman> Oh noes
17:29:00  <lolman> Sacro: I gave up on Arch for now
17:29:15  <Sacro> lolman: how comes?
17:29:27  <lolman> I screwed gdm beyond all recognition lol
17:29:33  <hylje> ha
17:31:38  <Sacro> lolman: pacman -Rd gdm
17:31:50  <Sacro> -Rdn i think for nosave
17:31:55  <Sacro> and then pacman -Sf it
17:32:02  <lolman> Sacro: too late :D
17:32:49  <Sacro> hmmm...
17:33:50  <lolman> I physically removed it :D
17:33:53  <lolman> (arch)
17:34:02  <Sacro> :(
17:34:03  <Sacro> aww
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17:58:34  <lolman> NTL are having issues :(
18:02:14  <ln-> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  a good example of British English.
18:03:29  <hylje> your ^s are misaligned
18:04:27  *** Bytefox [~digitalfo@bl8-41-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
18:05:42  <peter1138> hmm?
18:06:34  *** lolman [~john@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:07:33  <ln-> an american would have said "NTL is having issues", i suppose.
18:07:52  <Noldo> base are
18:07:56  *** lolman [~john@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
18:08:39  <peter1138> who cares want an american would've written?
18:08:41  <peter1138> *what
18:09:22  <ln-> someone who has studied a little linguistics, such as me.
18:09:42  <lolman> Bloody americans don't know how to spell :P
18:09:51  <Bjarni> you studied corrupted English?
18:10:16  <peter1138> easily done by reading yours
18:10:48  <lolman> You studied corrupted English?
18:12:12  <Bjarni> peter1138: at least I can spell
18:12:18  <Bjarni> besides it's not THAT bad
18:12:30  <lolman> Ladies!
18:12:38  <lolman> Calm down a bit :)
18:13:35  <Bjarni> no
18:13:46  <Bjarni> American sucks
18:13:50  <Bjarni> end of story
18:13:52  <lolman> No doubt it does
18:13:55  <Bjarni> I settle for no less
18:14:09  <lolman> Just ignore people who say otherwise, you know they're wrong ;-)
18:14:40  <Bjarni> remember when I said I put MYOB on ignore?
18:14:50  <lolman> Nope?
18:15:07  <Bjarni> he insulted me and argued about crazy stuff so I said I put him on ignore
18:15:31  <Bjarni> the next day I replied to his bullshit he said about me when he thought he was on ignore
18:15:37  <lolman> lol
18:15:45  <lolman> Nice one :)
18:17:31  <lolman> Sounds like what happened to me about a month ago in an AOL chatroom lol
18:18:06  <lolman> A guy was spreading crap about me and my friends in there...while he thought I was ignoring him
18:18:25  <lolman> Happens that I was logging it all...and I confronted him about it :P
18:24:48  *** znikoz [1@213-23-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #openttd
18:25:08  *** lws|Away is now known as lws1984
18:27:00  <Bjarni> 1984 is back to watch us
18:27:22  <lws1984> Indeed.
18:27:35  <lws1984> Big Brother is watching YOU!!
18:27:41  * lws1984 suddnely points at lolman
18:28:09  <lolman> :o
18:28:20  <lolman> NOES!
18:29:15  * Brianetta wobbles, but doesn't fall down
18:29:23  * Mikachu pushes Brianetta over the edge
18:29:29  * Brianetta wobbles, but doesn't fall down
18:29:38  * Mikachu dies
18:29:44  <Brianetta> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeble
18:29:46  * lolman oushes Mikachuover with Brianetta
18:29:52  <lolman> puches*
18:29:55  <lolman> pushes*
18:29:58  <lolman> Damnit
18:30:15  <lolman> NTL are having issues...BIG issues
18:31:40  *** DaleStan_ [~Dale@74.140.121.53] has joined #openttd
18:31:48  <Sacro> lolman: that'll be a pound
18:31:59  <lolman> lol
18:33:02  <lolman> ffs
18:33:08  <lolman> can't even complain to em
18:34:03  *** lws1984 [~lws1984@ip68-9-157-1.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:34:41  <lolman> No phone or TV atm, the buggers cut them off
18:37:07  *** Zahl [~SENFGURKE@p549F240B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: YOU! It was you wasn't it!?]
18:37:14  *** Ailure[AFK] is now known as Ailure
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18:40:11  <peter1138> mmm mince pies
18:40:18  <lolman> LIES
18:40:39  <peter1138> stupid tesco and their buy two for £1.50 offer
18:40:49  <lolman> haha
18:42:30  * peter1138 retires his first train
18:42:41  <peter1138> 149 years old
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18:44:09  <Brianetta> http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00005BNID.02._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1086878688_.jpg
18:44:15  <Brianetta> I have this on my desk
18:44:20  <Brianetta> Built it last Christmas
18:44:22  <Brianetta> IT ROCKS
18:44:31  *** Belugas_Gone [~Jfranc@216.191.111.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:44:32  <lolman> Brianetta: what is it? I can't load the pic
18:45:15  <Brianetta> http://i5.ebayimg.com/04/i/08/10/b3/d9_1.JPG
18:45:16  <Brianetta> that
18:45:17  <peter1138> it's fake lego
18:45:31  <lolman> Can't load that either...lol
18:45:40  <lolman> NTL is messed
18:45:47  <Brianetta> peter1138: Yes, but MegaBloks ProBuilder series are actually good
18:46:02  <Brianetta> Everything else I have is real Lego
18:46:07  <Bjarni> watch out for fake lego
18:46:22  <Brianetta> http://thesatya.com/albums/models/megaloco/megaloco545.html
18:46:38  <Mikachu> megaloco is a nice name
18:46:43  <Bjarni> more and more people in Asia (mainly China?) produces fake lego. Some of them legally, some of them illegally
18:46:52  <Brianetta> http://thesatya.com/albums/models/megaloco/megaloco488.html
18:47:27  <Brianetta> Bjarni: Mega Bloks is not pretending to be Lego, and they actually have a license to reproduce the 30 basic Lego bricks
18:47:36  <Bjarni> looks like a Royal Hudson
18:47:49  <Brianetta> It has no tender ):
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18:47:56  <Brianetta> so it's limited to downhill runs
18:48:09  <Bjarni> "Some of them legally, some of them illegally"
18:48:15  <Brianetta> without wagons, unless they have a brake van
18:48:34  <Brianetta> Bjarni: It's not fake Lego
18:48:44  <Brianetta> It's genuine Mega Bloks
18:49:04  <Bjarni> you can't operate a locomotive that designed to use a tender without a tender
18:49:15  <Brianetta> Bjarni: Just roll it down a hill
18:49:47  <Brianetta> or trail it with an umbilical (:
18:50:11  <Bjarni> since if they got a tender, they lack water tanks on the engine itself and you can't operate a steam locomotive without the ability to add water to the boiler
18:50:26  <Brianetta> Bjarni: I never said it'd go far
18:50:45  <Brianetta> Downhill, with enough of a head to pull off the rakes
18:50:50  <Brianetta> er, brakes
18:51:20  <Bjarni> then you could just push wagons down the hill on their own. You need no engine power to do so
18:51:28  <Brianetta> but
18:51:35  <Brianetta> the goal is to operate the loco
18:51:39  <Brianetta> not move anything
18:52:25  <Brianetta> anyway, the loco woul dbe handy for operating the brakes
18:52:56  <Bjarni> thinking about it, the drivers looks a bit small
18:53:25  <Brianetta> they are
18:53:37  <Bjarni> they should be say 20% larger
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18:53:46  <Brianetta> It's a totally fictional engine
18:53:56  <Bjarni> or the locomotive would be really slow
18:54:02  <Brianetta> You should see the nuclear aircraft carrier in the same range
18:54:12  <Brianetta> it's worse for scale than TTD
18:54:18  <Brianetta> which reminds me
18:54:29  <Brianetta> TTD locos work fine without their tenders (:
18:54:35  <Brianetta> They don't even have to stop for water.
18:54:52  <Bjarni> we need water refuelling stuff
18:55:12  *** Neonox [~Neonox@offb-590ead76.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
18:55:13  <Brianetta> we need to make UKRS the default set (:
18:55:16  <Bjarni> including water "canals" (forgot the English name)
18:55:24  <Bjarni> yeah
18:55:49  <Brianetta> and include a "lame-ass original vehicles.grf" for those who whinge
18:56:11  * Mikachu hugs his flashbang wizz
18:56:41  <Rubidium> Darkvater: ping
18:56:55  <Brianetta> http://thesatya.com/albums/models/nychudson/
18:57:00  <Brianetta> Same person did a Hudson
18:57:10  <Brianetta> but it's an NY Central
18:58:19  <Brianetta> coool
18:58:20  <Brianetta> http://thesatya.com/albums/trains/
18:58:34  <Brianetta> He's got a model railway and he's got creative with the angles
18:59:10  <Bjarni> http://thesatya.com/albums/models/aircraft/F16/lf1605.html <-- that reminds me of when I tried to build a plane out of lego. I got a far as to make the gears move up and down on hydraulics and then I lost interest.
18:59:42  <Brianetta> Yeah
18:59:46  <Brianetta> ProBuilder models look good
19:00:09  <Brianetta> The train has working doors, roof vents, bogeys and pistons
19:00:17  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7473 /trunk/ (train.h train_cmd.c train_gui.c):
19:00:17  <CIA-1> -Fix (r7269): Pass a cargo type to determine the freight weight
19:00:17  <CIA-1> multiplier instead of a vehicle. Fixes incorrect display of total
19:00:17  <CIA-1> train capacity.
19:00:18  <Bjarni> but I didn't buy a plane model. I built it out of lego based on my own design
19:00:19  <Brianetta> and the inside of the cab has all the controls modelled
19:01:03  <peter1138> ttd's easier
19:01:07  <peter1138> there's less mess to clear up
19:01:22  <Brianetta> peter1138: Way, way cheaper, too.
19:03:46  <Nigel> Bjarni, hey that looks REALLY cool
19:04:01  <Bjarni> http://thesatya.com/albums/models/londonb/lonb1751.html <--- LOL, it's Tower Bridge, not London Bridge
19:06:52  <Bjarni> but it reminds me of some Americans, who went to London, saw Tower Bridge and went to City Hall to buy London Bridge. They offered some money and they would pay for a replacement bridge. At that time, the real London Bridge was of no historical value, in poor condition and way too small for the traffic load so they were already planning a replacement, so they signed a contract, that sold London Bridge to the Americans. They got chea
19:06:52  <Bjarni> ted by their own ignorance, but they gave London a new bridge and the old London Bridge is somewhere in a US desert
19:07:01  <Brianetta> London Bridge was dismantled and shipped to the USA. (:
19:07:03  <Bjarni> those Americans were nice to London :D
19:07:12  <Brianetta> Oh, you pasted the story.
19:07:17  <Bjarni> no, I wrote it
19:07:33  <Bjarni> not copy paste, but writing from memory
19:07:49  <Brianetta> oh
19:07:51  <Brianetta> kudos
19:08:07  <Bjarni> bbl
19:08:13  <Brianetta> The bought it before they came to London, though
19:08:14  *** LadyHawk [here@82-47-23-153.cable.ubr02.dudl.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
19:09:27  <Nigel> Ahhh the Plague!
19:09:52  <LadyHawk> uh, me? :o
19:09:58  * LadyHawk runs around the channel to infect everyone
19:12:25  <peter1138> who wants to debug desyncs?
19:12:32  <Nigel> no, London Bridge :P
19:12:46  <Nigel> peter1138, sure i'll do it on the bus ;)
19:13:01  * Nigel quickly goes and prints the source code
19:13:54  <Rubidium> peter1138: what's required for the debug/desync session?
19:14:26  <Sacro> Rubidium: cup of tea and some biscuits are a start
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19:15:15  <Rubidium> Sacro: is Hot Chocolate and another type of cookie ok too?
19:15:29  <Sacro> Rubidium: for me, no, for you, quite possibly
19:15:31  <Nigel> Rubidium, you need http://www.amazon.com/Nanas-All-Occasion-Delicious-including-Chocolate/dp/B0006G3PSM/ref=pd_bxgy_gf_text_b/103-2249543-0865431
19:17:51  <peter1138> Rubidium: patience
19:19:04  <Rubidium> hmm, should I run it in gdb?
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19:25:15  <peter1138> who knows :)
19:26:59  <peter1138> it's the old 'reload the game fixes it' one :/
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19:32:20  <peter1138> glx is still connected
19:32:27  <peter1138> 's only me who desyncs
19:34:11  <LadyHawk> you guys aware of the nightly bug with the newspapers? an industry closes, but then next time it tries to close that same industry and the news shows the top corner of the map
19:34:26  <LadyHawk> i had a game yesterday and it really spammed me with that same message over and over
19:34:35  <LadyHawk> like it thought that industry was still sitting somewhere in the world
19:35:17  <LadyHawk> i just browsed around the forums but couldn't find it mentioned anywhere..
19:35:55  <Ailure> Is there any good multiplayer server?
19:40:37  <Ailure> also
19:40:41  <Ailure> there's something amusing
19:40:48  <Ailure> with zeppelins that makes helicopter noises :)
19:49:40  <glx> peter1138: yes it's stable for me :)
19:52:18  <Rubidium> peter1138: do all files need to be in the same directories?
19:53:51  <glx> no it autofind the right files in data subdirs :)
19:54:27  <Bjarni> LadyHawk: never heard of it (even though that tells near nothing as I have been busy lately). If nobody mentioned this anywhere, then post a bug report with a savegame and your openttd.cfg file
19:54:48  <Bjarni> then there is a better chance on figuring out what happens
19:56:03  <Rubidium> hmm, got the wrong versions of pb_ukrs.grf and pb_hovs.grf :(
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19:56:30  <glx> get them on fuzzle.org
19:56:46  <Rubidium> You don't have permission to access /o/trunk/data/custom/ukrs/pb_hovs.grf on this server.
19:58:54  <peter1138> follow the links
20:04:31  <Rubidium> I still can't find a pb_hovs.grf on PikkaBird's site
20:04:36  <peter1138> hmm
20:05:20  <peter1138> http://www.pikkarail.com/ttdp/secret/pb_hovs.grf
20:05:21  <Rubidium> and the one you'll find via grfcrawler isn't the correct one
20:08:53  <peter1138> so i desync and you don't...
20:09:03  <Rubidium> yup
20:09:10  <Rubidium> now I did
20:09:19  <peter1138> *** Peter1138 has left the game (desync error)
20:09:24  <peter1138> *** Rubidium has left the game (connection lost)
20:09:26  <peter1138> hmm
20:09:42  <Rubidium> I got a desync error though
20:09:50  <hylje> zomg? dev nightly server
20:15:17  <glx> desync for both
20:17:28  <peter1138> hmm
20:17:32  <peter1138> happens very often
20:17:43  <peter1138> so has be affecting something with some fundamental calculation
20:18:54  <peter1138> i like the simple "do this and breaks" desyncs :/
20:19:44  <glx> peter1138: hmm the server is still a "crashable with autoreplace" version iirc :)
20:22:03  <peter1138> maybe i should start another server with no newgrfs
20:22:06  <peter1138> see what happens...
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20:26:27  <CIA-1> glx * r7474 /branches/MiniIN/ (57 files in 5 dirs): [MiniIN] -Sync with trunk r7429:r7473
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20:38:06  <Brianetta> dbg: [NET] Sync error detected!
20:40:07  <Brianetta> And again
20:40:16  <glx> and I'm still logged in :)
20:40:28  <Brianetta> So I see
20:41:50  <Brianetta> So, any idea what's causing the desyncs?
20:42:40  <peter1138> some sort of data inconsistency
20:42:46  <Brianetta> oof
20:42:48  <Brianetta> desynced again
20:42:55  <peter1138> or buffer overflow
20:42:58  <peter1138> or... who knows
20:43:09  <Brianetta> Anything I can do to assist?
20:43:19  * Brianetta is happy to patch & recompile
20:43:38  <Mikachu> would it be recommended to restrict the openttd port to expected ips when i'm playing with friends if i'm paranoid?
20:43:40  <peter1138> i don't have any patches to aid desync hunting
20:43:55  <peter1138> Mikachu: or just password it
20:43:55  <Brianetta> Mikachu: Only if apranoid.
20:44:23  <Mikachu> is most of the buggy code exposed only after joining the game? :)
20:44:33  <Brianetta> Mikachu: Easier and more effective, would be to disable master server advertising.
20:44:42  <peter1138> and now glx's desyncing? hmm
20:44:48  <Mikachu> i don't advertise
20:45:03  <glx> peter1138: yes I logout and reconnect and now I desync too
20:45:05  <peter1138> ahhh
20:45:06  <peter1138> yes
20:45:09  <Brianetta> You're pretty safe.  Few, if any, random port-scanning worms loko for OpenTTD servers.
20:45:24  <Mikachu> good to know
20:46:05  <Brianetta> I run one on my domestic broadband *and* two on my server in London (soon to be three) 24/7
20:46:10  <Brianetta> Never had a security issue
20:46:35  <peter1138> it's better than it used to be ;)
20:47:21  <Brianetta> Mikachu: Of course, to be properly paranoid safe you should run OprnTTD under a dedicated login.
20:47:38  <Rubidium> hmm, valgrind seems to be too slow :(
20:47:47  <peter1138> yup
20:47:50  <Mikachu> that's an idea
20:47:59  <Mikachu> but i haven't really secured my system against local users anyway
20:48:09  <Mikachu> i probably have some old suid shells lying around :)
20:48:20  <Brianetta> If somebody breaks through to shell, it keeps your own user's files safer
20:48:28  <Brianetta> assuming they don't root it immediately
20:48:30  <jotham_> heh, my boss is trying to get parts for his 40 year old calculator
20:48:42  <Brianetta> jotham_: I am surrounded by slide rules
20:49:09  <jotham_> an HP, one of those ones with red-neon lit numerals/filamants
20:49:14  <Mikachu> yeah
20:49:19  <Brianetta> Mains powered?
20:49:25  <Brianetta> Non-scientific?
20:49:36  <Brianetta> I thought HP brought out their first in 1973
20:49:47  <Brianetta> which would make it 33 years old at the most
20:49:51  <jotham_> he loves the fucking things, has a serial cable for it so he can program with it, he has used it in my time here to test interfaces with various bits of hardware we work with
20:50:01  <jotham_> ok 33, yeah i was probably exagerating
20:50:11  <Brianetta> (:
20:50:23  * Brianetta is holding a 40 year old calculator
20:50:37  <jotham_> hah
20:50:48  <jotham_> oldest calculator i have is a pentium 100
20:51:02  <Brianetta> I have several slide rules
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20:51:13  <Brianetta> and a mechanical addiator that I gave to Helen
20:51:20  <Brianetta> although only I know how to operate it
20:51:22  <jotham_> yeah my dad is a civil engineer for the railways
20:51:27  <jotham_> he has some pretty oldschool kit
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21:00:21  <Brianetta> desyncs would make this game unplayable
21:00:30  <Brianetta> Good job I'm only spectating.
21:00:30  <jotham_> i get them all the time
21:00:40  <jotham_> i wish i knew why
21:00:52  <jotham_> my friend who connects to my lan from his house has a perfect game, i get desynchs
21:01:06  <jotham_> him and i both run on windows, but the server i am running is on linux
21:01:21  <Brianetta> Desyncs are caused by a difference in game state
21:01:32  <Brianetta> normally detected by comparing the current random seed
21:01:37  <glx> and they are hard to track
21:01:45  <glx> *trace
21:02:00  <Brianetta> THey have nothing to do with the connection speed, reliability, etc - that all has some other error
21:02:36  <glx> like "connection lost" or "client X is slow"
21:02:41  * Brianetta nods
21:02:56  <jotham_> well he is consistently slow
21:03:06  <Brianetta> but he doesn't desync
21:03:07  <jotham_> like, the console gets spammed with Player #7 slow
21:03:17  <Brianetta> you do (:
21:03:21  <jotham_> but i desynch, i wondered if my computer is running the simulation faster than the server
21:03:26  <Brianetta> no
21:03:32  <jotham_> but the  server is only eating 20% cpu
21:03:47  <Brianetta> They're kept in lock-step every net-frame-freq
21:04:14  <Brianetta> By default, every single frame
21:04:20  <jotham_> hum
21:04:26  <Brianetta> there's a kind of network heartbeat to keep things in time
21:04:54  <Brianetta> but the entire game is modelled in parallel on the server and every client
21:05:15  <Brianetta> Any client that has a game state differing from the server is desynced and disconnected
21:05:35  <Mikachu> can't it just redownload the state?
21:05:39  <Brianetta> usually, the random number generator is the means to test this, but there are probably other tests
21:05:53  <peter1138> Mikachu: you do that by reconnecting
21:05:54  <Brianetta> Mikachu: It can, but i fthe desync is cause by having the wrong GRFs loaded...
21:06:05  <Brianetta> well, you can imagine
21:06:10  <jotham_> it gets so bad eventually that it restarts me every 5 minutes or so
21:06:13  <Mikachu> some sort of limit would be a good idea
21:06:14  <Brianetta> That doesn't happen int he recent trunk revisions
21:06:26  <Brianetta> which check the grfs
21:06:37  <jotham_> we're just using out-of-the-box 0.4.8 or whatever
21:06:39  <Brianetta> but there might be other states where the game syncs every time
21:06:39  <Mikachu> well, i don't have any idea how it works, i just like to say things when i think of them
21:06:47  <Brianetta> and for a 4MB map, that's a heavy penalty
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21:07:38  <Brianetta> desyncs, I meant
21:08:01  <jotham_> yeah we play 1024x1024
21:08:07  <jotham_> right now we're on 256x1024 mountian map and it's fine
21:08:15  <jotham_> except i'm almost bankrupt
21:08:25  <Brianetta> Get your competitors to bail you out
21:08:31  <jotham_> how
21:08:37  <Brianetta> Ask them for cash
21:08:37  <Mikachu> client list -> give money?
21:08:41  <jotham_> ok
21:08:47  <jotham_> he started on flat land and me in the hills because i needed the challenge
21:08:56  <jotham_> but i went and tidied my house and didn't pay attention
21:09:00  <jotham_> and got owned by stupidity
21:09:38  <jotham_> so that INFRA chicks siesta tracks are cool
21:09:48  <jotham_> have started using them
21:10:07  <Brianetta> SAC?
21:10:16  <Brianetta> "that INFRA chick"
21:10:22  <Brianetta> don't let Darkvater see you call her that
21:10:32  <jotham_> funny/accurate nerd/geek/dork dissection http://catandgirl.com/view.php?loc=94
21:10:38  <jotham_> why not? was it offensive?
21:10:42  <jotham_> i didn't know her name
21:10:56  <Brianetta> not so much offensive as lacking a certain respectful tone
21:11:04  <jotham_> chick isn't an offensive term in my country, and we're hardly pre-feminist
21:11:14  <jotham_> unlike much of europe felt
21:11:31  <jotham_> anyway, no offence meant
21:11:53  <jotham_> chick here is like guy
21:12:05  <jotham_> casual antonym
21:12:06  <Brianetta> That cartoon has nerd and geek reversed...
21:12:12  <jotham_> no it doesn't
21:12:49  <Brianetta> People claim that a lot here
21:12:57  <jotham_> claim what a lot
21:13:20  <Brianetta> that those definitions of nerd and geek are the correct way around
21:13:38  <Brianetta> Wikipedia has it that way, too, but that's written by the mob
21:13:41  <jotham_> well from what i've read of the etymology of both it is the case
21:14:01  <Brianetta> Etymology?  References, please
21:14:31  <jotham_> http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Dictionary-English-Etymology/dp/0198611129
21:14:33  <jotham_> ^^
21:14:45  <jotham_> it's still a bit of a subjective adventure
21:14:57  <Brianetta> I shall have a read of that next week
21:15:18  <jotham_> as i understood it geek was a simpleton/freak
21:15:25  <jotham_> and a nerd was a dr suess contrivance
21:15:32  <Brianetta> http://catb.org/jargon/html/G/geek.html <-> http://catb.org/jargon/html/N/nerd.html
21:15:57  <jotham_> uh the jargon file isn't really a sane reference site :p
21:16:12  <Brianetta> It does, however, describe the subculture's jargon
21:16:22  <jotham_> actually it looks like nerd and geek are as cat and girl suggests there
21:16:29  <jotham_> geek is things like sysadmin, startrek fan
21:16:34  <jotham_> nerd is thing like CS major
21:16:38  <Mikachu> everyone seems to have their own definition of geek and nerd, no point in trying to convince anyone one way or another
21:16:55  <jotham_> well there is enough material avalaible to find some common ground Mikachu
21:17:00  <jotham_> much like religious people do with scripture
21:17:27  <Brianetta> Personally, I call myself a geek and I treat nerd as a slur.
21:18:00  <jotham_> personally i see myself as a nerd as i aim to improve my art with math and programming, but i have no affiliation with popular subculture if i can help it
21:18:38  <jotham_> it kills me that geeks are so derisive of pop-culture yet are just as bad
21:18:48  <jotham_> exclusionism is a rediculous human social function
21:19:01  <Brianetta> So are sweeping generalisations
21:19:09  <jotham_> we all know the folly of generalisations
21:19:15  <Brianetta> ANother subculture I am a member of is goth
21:19:19  <jotham_> haha
21:19:22  <jotham_> they are so common here
21:19:32  <Brianetta> and I'm happy to pigeon-hole myself.
21:19:38  <jotham_> actually being replaced with emo now, defined as 'like goth, but a lot more harry potter'
21:19:55  <Brianetta> Emos don't even listen to goth music
21:20:07  <jotham_> i think that was along the line of 'all asians look teh same'
21:20:40  <jotham_> on that note, i am quite amused at wikipedia - we now have a pop culture reference that is administered by a group that traditionally loathes all things popular
21:21:06  <Brianetta> I don't loathe the popular, so much as seek out the scenes I feel at home in.
21:21:27  <Brianetta> Rejecting the popular and picking an alternative at random seems... misguided to me.
21:21:36  <jotham_> have you read any of the stuff on inclusive and exclusive social behavior?
21:21:48  <Brianetta> some
21:22:36  <jotham_> i think feelings of alienation lead to a stronger need for inclusion but in turn a greater zealousness in rejecting the society they were alienated from
21:23:02  <Brianetta> Perhaps.
21:23:12  <Brianetta> Still misguided, IMO, but so is much behaviour.
21:23:15  <jotham_> so you end up with rabid DDR fanboys that loath people getting worked up over paris hilton
21:24:01  <jotham_> for myself, i think any kind of affiliation is ultimatly intellectually dangerous
21:25:31  <Brianetta> well, my affiliations are borne of shared interests.  OpenTTD, for example, is the reason I hang out here.  My taste in music is eclectic, but my favourite is goth.  I love computers, and the ideals of freedom, so I hang out int he FOSS community.  In fact, I'm a local community leader int hat respect.
21:25:41  <Brianetta> These affiliations are, in my opinion, healthy.
21:25:45  <jotham_> what is FOSS
21:25:49  <Brianetta> If I change, so shall they.
21:25:57  <Brianetta> Froo and Open Source Software
21:26:01  <Brianetta> er, Free
21:26:04  <jotham_> oh
21:26:41  <jotham_> i am pretty suspicious of freedom, i'm not sure if it's just a practical delusion.  but i don't think it's the kind of discussion for here :)
21:27:26  <jotham_> do you have a last.fm page? i am interested in what is considered goth in the UK
21:27:36  <Brianetta> what's last.fm?
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21:27:57  <Brianetta> I just quit a goth club.  Have a look at their playlists online
21:28:01  <jotham_> uhm, you install a plugin into your player of choice and it builds a profile of the bands/tracks you listen to
21:28:02  <Brianetta> http://www.thecharnelhouse.com/
21:28:06  *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5772982.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Whoopsy]
21:28:15  <jotham_> then you can find people with similar taste etc
21:28:32  <Brianetta> My players of choice is a PSP
21:28:36  <jotham_> http://www.last.fm/user/jothamread/
21:28:38  <jotham_> ok
21:28:56  <jotham_> at home i have winamp which i can hit with VNC
21:29:23  <jotham_> yeah that club plays similar stuff to the goth nights here
21:29:29  <jotham_> no dedicated club though
21:29:40  <Brianetta> goth's a sort of post-punk alt-80s genre
21:29:44  <jotham_> yeah
21:30:37  <Brianetta> I often feel frustrated when kids who are into metal or stuff like Marilyn Manson say they're goth.  It makes me wonder how they're ever giong to find a club they like, or records they like in a shop.
21:30:54  <jotham_> there are a lot of them in this city, but the next generation of disassociated chilluns seem to be all emo'd out
21:31:17  <Brianetta> Emos - now they're an odd bunch.
21:31:25  <Brianetta> Got to like their fashion, though.
21:31:28  <jotham_> my gf is one heh
21:31:28  <peter1138> heh
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21:31:44  <MeusH> good evening
21:31:47  <jotham_> well she changes actually, i think really she's just trying to find something she likes
21:32:08  <Brianetta> My fiancée is a sexy goth chick (:
21:32:23  <jotham_> sexy goths are damn sexy
21:32:29  <Brianetta> Tell me about it.
21:32:42  <jotham_> as a be-bearded artist nerd i am socially not in line with them, but they are hot
21:32:42  <Brianetta> Just under a year and we'll be wed
21:32:50  <jotham_> better than the rag wearing artist flakes i know
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21:33:16  <Brianetta> I have two looks - goth, and about to climb a hill
21:33:35  <jotham_> hills are good
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21:36:10  <Mikachu> there's no equivalent of ttdpatch's track upgrade cheat, is there?
21:38:37  <MeusH> there is convert rail tool
21:38:50  <MeusH> but you need to drag-drop the area you want to upgrade
21:39:00  <Mikachu> can you autoupgrade trains from rail to monorail?
21:39:09  <Mikachu> actually i could just test that, sorry :)
21:39:30  <Mikachu> i'm currently playing toyland with a single interconnected network with 50 trains
21:39:47  <CIA-1> peter1138 * r7475 /trunk/ (newgrf.c string.h): -Fix (r7348): sanity check NewGRF action 8 strings for null terminator
21:40:55  <Mikachu> hm
21:41:01  <Mikachu> that sent every train to depots without doing anything
21:41:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:41:59  <MeusH> Mikachu, open monorail construction toolbar
21:42:20  <MeusH> and press a button with a yellow arror
21:42:28  <MeusH> it is last or second from right button
21:42:35  <Mikachu> yes, i know how to convert the track, the problem is the trains/wagons
21:43:13  <MeusH> hmmm that doesn't sound good
21:44:18  *** Rens2RB6Vegas is now known as Rens2Sea
21:47:02  <Mikachu> ah, i need to send all trains to depot
21:47:08  <Mikachu> convert all rails
21:47:10  <Mikachu> then i can autoconvert
21:48:22  <glx> you need to convert trains by hand too
21:48:28  <Mikachu> New Vehicles: -30.000.000$
21:48:36  <Mikachu> i used autoconvert
21:48:48  <glx> miniin I guess
21:48:53  <Mikachu> i had to click the autoconvert button in all depots manually though
21:48:53  <Mikachu> yeah
21:49:43  * peter1138 runs ottd under gdb with efence
21:49:49  <peter1138> mmm, speedy :P
21:49:53  *** Digitalfox [~digitalfo@bl8-41-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:50:14  <Mikachu> for some reason the autoreplace of old vehicles isn't working either
21:50:20  <Mikachu> but i'll blame miniin for that
21:51:02  <peter1138> hmm
21:51:06  <peter1138> it stopped within yapf
21:56:16  <Bjarni> Mikachu: if autorenew fails, then try to turn it off and on again. It's a known issue (GUI and game gets out of sync, maybe when loading)
21:58:17  <Mikachu> i think the problem was i was trying to create monorail vehicles in a normal train depot :)
21:59:24  *** pecisk [~pecisk@purvc-44-54.maksinets.lv] has quit [Quit: J?iet prom]
22:00:49  <Brianetta> Can we have extra grfs loaded yet?
22:00:57  <Brianetta> as in, grfs not running ont he server
22:01:13  <glx> cosmetic grfs?
22:01:17  <Brianetta> indeed so
22:01:39  <Brianetta> like dutch catenary, czech rails, new roads, etc
22:01:50  <Brianetta> or even just prettier level crossing barriers
22:01:54  <Brianetta> and new fences (:
22:02:02  <peter1138> soon
22:02:05  <Brianetta> (:
22:02:16  <jotham_> i really need to learn how to make graphics
22:02:26  <jotham_> i want to make a new bridge
22:02:26  <Brianetta> I don't like default catenary.  It often lines up against a rail and becomes hard to see.
22:02:45  <jotham_> a brick one, i can't stand those cantilever bridges
22:03:07  <Brianetta> jotham_: Use PikkaBird's brick viaduct
22:03:16  <Brianetta> It replaces the 20mph wooden bridge
22:03:23  <Brianetta> and allows higher speeds early on
22:03:31  <jotham_> i'll look into it - but i'm still interested in making some of my own
22:04:23  <Brianetta> Hmm, fuel cell trains make catenary flashes
22:04:26  <Brianetta> Dodgy
22:04:47  <jotham_> is Trainz Railroad Simulator any good?
22:04:53  <Brianetta> In some respects
22:05:01  <Brianetta> Unfortunately, it's a Windows game
22:05:18  <jotham_> i'm not os biased
22:05:22  <Brianetta> I am
22:05:27  <jotham_> yeah most people are
22:05:53  <jotham_> at home i have a mac laptop, winxp, and ubuntu side by side
22:05:59  <jotham_> as my desktops
22:06:01  <Brianetta> This OS (not Windows) is the one set up for IRC, IM, email, etc, etc
22:06:07  <Brianetta> and I spend all my time in it
22:06:10  <jotham_> yeah that's how my ubuntu is
22:06:14  <Brianetta> I don't fancy rebooting to play a game
22:07:00  <Brianetta> I do, sometimes
22:07:04  <Brianetta> to play Thief or X
22:07:28  <jotham_> i need to give osx x86 a whirl sometime, but it looks to me that without buying a specific mobo/cpu/etc it'll not be a very sweet ride
22:07:42  <Brianetta> but I dislike Windows in general.  The active window must be in front of all the others, and I find that really restrictive.  It counts against Mac SO X for me, too.
22:08:04  <jotham_> it's easy enough to change that in both OSes
22:08:09  <Brianetta> no
22:08:09  <jotham_> but yeah no GUI is without issue
22:08:24  <Brianetta> in OS X, focusing ont he mouse makes the application menus hard to use
22:08:28  *** tokai [~tokai@p54B8310A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:08:40  <Mikachu> you can activate windows without raising them, but not being able to lower windows is something i really get annoyed at
22:08:40  <Brianetta> In Wondows, the power-toy still raises windows when you click in them
22:08:42  <jotham_> true the GUI isn't designed for it
22:09:02  <jotham_> in xp there is a registry key and it has a few operation modes
22:09:05  <Brianetta> Mikachu: Send-to-back is important.
22:09:27  <Brianetta> jotham_: I have explored it.  It's not as versatile as it promises to be.
22:09:33  <jotham_> i understand
22:09:42  <Brianetta> I administer a Win2K3 AD at work
22:09:49  <jotham_> i tend to just learn the metaphore the creators want me to use, the same goes with programming languages and software packages
22:10:29  <Brianetta> I'm IRCing right now in a large IRC window.  In the middle of this is an OpenTTD window on peter1138's server.
22:10:36  <Brianetta> I'm typing underneath that (:
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22:11:17  <jotham_> i'm at work, 2 x 19" tft, irc is in small window, other terminals etc all over the place
22:11:27  <Brianetta> re
22:11:50  <Mikachu> so you had to buy another screen because you can't manage windows efficiently? :)
22:11:58  <Brianetta> heh
22:12:18  <jotham_> i usually debug on window 2 while application is running full screen on window 1
22:12:35  <jotham_> development is very window-heavy, in linux i'd use virtual desktops
22:12:41  <Brianetta> You need a third screen, attached to a second machine
22:12:58  <jotham_> i wrote a socket library for doing that with macromedia flash kiosk applications
22:12:59  <Brianetta> That's for documenting bugs in the event of a crash hard enough to freeze your dev machine
22:13:14  * Brianetta uses a laptop (:
22:13:16  <jotham_> since they ran with touch screens and no UI stuff
22:13:47  <jotham_> it's rare my machine hard freezes, only thing that happens is the video driver has a cry, but i have a hot key to reset it now
22:15:04  <Brianetta> When I was beta tester on X3, I often encountered hard freezes.  Once, the game ran an unexcepted div/0
22:15:29  <Brianetta> I imagine the CPU just sat there incrementing a register by 0
22:15:34  <Brianetta> until it reached its value
22:15:34  <glx> the "nice" thing in windows is when explorer.exe freezes :)
22:16:57  <jotham_> guess i should go buy trainz tonight
22:17:06  *** MUcht [~Mucht@p57A0DCB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
22:19:53  <Brianetta> I'd like presignals that only reacted to routeable exit signals
22:20:17  <Brianetta> Then I could have a single line duplex track with more than three trains, and no holding area.
22:22:14  <jotham_> yeah that'd be cool
22:22:35  <Brianetta> Of course, it would really naff up those priority lines that people use
22:22:39  *** Mucht_ [~Mucht@p57A0DEB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:22:43  <peter1138> i was wondering about doing something similar to ttdp's route restrictions
22:22:45  <Brianetta> but they're far from realistuc
22:22:59  <jotham_> is there a web site that has all the different track design patterns?
22:23:01  <peter1138> signal restrictions that can be restricted based on another signal's setting
22:23:07  <peter1138> == programmable signals, somehow
22:23:55  <Darkvater> back \o/
22:24:12  <peter1138> hello
22:25:30  <MeusH> hello
22:29:13  <Darkvater> ol
22:29:14  <Darkvater> A
22:29:20  * Darkvater removes caps
22:30:11  <Darkvater> do I hear someone say desync errors?
22:30:33  <Darkvater> they're so fucking annoying. Every time I went to test them they never happened :s
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22:32:26  <peter1138> well
22:32:31  <peter1138> i think i've found the culprit
22:32:44  <Darkvater> :O
22:32:45  <Darkvater> good job
22:32:46  <peter1138> i disabled yapf, and it's stable now
22:32:47  <Darkvater> what is it?
22:32:56  <Darkvater> ohoh
22:33:01  <Darkvater> cacherebuild needed?
22:33:10  <peter1138> well, it's gone 2 years without a desync
22:33:16  <peter1138> it does cache rebuild, though
22:33:44  <glx> and I had no desync until I logout to reconnect :)
22:33:54  <peter1138> indeed
22:34:28  <KUDr> so when you connect to existing game then yapf causes desync?
22:34:43  <peter1138> KUDr: seems so, but only after a long time
22:34:45  <Mikachu> turbo works better if you hold down tab instead of caps lock
22:34:46  <peter1138> == hard to debug
22:35:04  <KUDr> long time after connect?
22:35:20  <peter1138> long time after the game was started or loaded
22:35:22  <Brianetta> KUDr: no
22:35:34  <peter1138> it'll play fine for ages
22:35:47  <peter1138> when suddenly it'll start desyncing every couple of minutes
22:35:47  <Brianetta> Once the game reaches a certain age, desyncs are numerous and frequent
22:36:08  <peter1138> saving and reloading the game fixes it, for another period of time
22:36:17  <KUDr> aha
22:36:23  <peter1138> also
22:36:25  <KUDr> so it is problem of savegame
22:36:30  <peter1138> clients that connected at the start stay connected
22:36:33  <peter1138> only new clients desync
22:36:39  <peter1138> savegame or cached info
22:36:49  <KUDr> not yapf itself as yapf works with existing data only
22:37:06  <KUDr> no cached info across frames
22:37:17  <KUDr> so it should not be cache
22:37:25  <Darkvater> peter1138: yes that problem (only new clients are desynced) is known, but also existed *before* yapf got added
22:37:42  <peter1138> Darkvater: fine. but in this case disabling yapf fixed it
22:37:48  <peter1138> i haven't reloaded the server
22:37:51  <KUDr> ahh
22:38:16  <KUDr> we need some dignostics (CmdCheckGameState)
22:38:27  <peter1138> however
22:38:33  <KUDr> checking CRC of certain game data
22:38:38  * Brianetta is willing to help test this
22:38:40  <peter1138> i ran it with gdb & efence
22:38:51  <peter1138> and it stopped on a free within yapf
22:38:53  <KUDr> efence?
22:38:58  <peter1138> electric fence
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22:39:05  <KUDr> aha
22:39:09  <peter1138> memory allocation debugger
22:39:17  <KUDr> on free() call?
22:39:23  <peter1138> not quite as stringent as valgrind, as i understand it
22:40:08  <KUDr> hmm, if there was problem with deallocation i should have it found in debug mode under win32
22:40:11  <peter1138> specifically on ,...~CHashTableT() {delete [] m_slots; m_num_items = 0; m_slots = NULL;}
22:40:47  <KUDr> free inside delete[] ?
22:40:50  <peter1138> yes
22:40:57  <KUDr> hmm
22:41:06  <peter1138> this may be efence tripping up somewhere
22:41:10  <glx> delete[] does free internally
22:41:17  <KUDr> yes
22:41:45  <KUDr> but in debug mode i must see such problem immediatelly
22:42:07  <KUDr> and was it HashTable from cache or from yapf nodes (open/closed)
22:42:10  <jotham_> i just made this, it's pretty trippy http://www.metacafe.com/watch/325720/crazy_paper_folding_trick/
22:43:07  <UnderBuilder> how can I get an old revision of miniin (I am using windows with tortoisesvn)
22:43:11  <peter1138> i don't know, i had closed it a while ago ;(
22:43:19  <UnderBuilder> I wan't to get r7430
22:43:32  <Brianetta> metacafe whinges about my Flash version
22:43:45  <Mikachu> try the 9 beta
22:44:00  <Brianetta> UnderBuilder: svn up -r revision && svn revert -R *
22:44:28  <MeusH> that's great trick :)
22:44:59  <MeusH> goodnight
22:45:00  <Brianetta> I'm guessing that Tortoise has the same shell commands as the Linux one
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22:45:36  <Rubidium> TortoiseSVN has _no_ real svn shell commands (only one that somewhat resembles svn info)
22:45:53  <glx> it's fully GUI based :)
22:46:02  <glx> integrated in windows explorer
22:46:13  <Brianetta> yuck
22:46:31  <Rubidium> but when you click on the update thingy, it will have a radio button where you can specify a revision instead of HEAD
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22:46:54  <Rubidium> but you must have checked out svn://svn.openttd.org/branches/MiniIN for that to work in the first place
22:50:00  <jotham_> so is the nightly playable?
22:50:07  <Brianetta> yes
22:50:09  <jotham_> is there a recent stableish nightly snapshot that is?
22:50:10  <jotham_> ok
22:50:32  <jotham_> if it solves the desynch problems i've been having it'll be sweet
22:50:47  <Darkvater> jotham_: please tell us when you do ;)
22:51:16  <jotham_> Darkvater: did you hear what i said the other day about the linking of trains (using unload) vs the direct trips? you told me to report when i had investigated it
22:51:30  <Brianetta> I take it these desyncs would delay 0.5, of nothing else did?
22:51:34  <Brianetta> s/of/if/
22:51:45  <Rubidium> jotham_: does not using YAPF solve the desyncs?
22:51:59  <jotham_> i'm running 0.4.8 i don't think it has YAPF
22:52:01  <jotham_> just NPF
22:52:13  <Darkvater> jotham_: yes I heard...kinda forgot what you said though ;p
22:52:24  <Brianetta> it doesn't
22:52:52  <Darkvater> don't think we have more or less desync than we had with 0.4.8
22:52:54  <jotham_> that because the trains were running shorter routes the service % went up and they got more goods overall and you had less end-point conjestion as there were fewer (if not much longer) trains hitting it
22:53:10  <jotham_> in my test the profit was quite different
22:53:14  <Brianetta> Darkvater: We had more desyncs on peter1138's server tonight
22:53:24  <Darkvater> that's peter ;)
22:53:43  <Brianetta> Solved by switching to NPF, it seems
22:53:46  <Darkvater> jotham_: with transfer?
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22:53:49  <Brianetta> well, worked around
22:54:08  <jotham_> i'll make a screenshot
22:54:21  <glx> the server is running since more than 24h
22:58:59  *** riot [~wntrmut@clx-ac2-53-3.westend.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:00:49  <jotham_> so is there a website with track design patterns?
23:00:52  *** ChrisM87 [~ChrisM@p54AC7402.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:01:03  <jotham_> i'd be quite interested in putting some effort into a section on the wiki or something
23:01:17  <peter1138> there is
23:01:22  <peter1138> 1) some on the wiki already
23:01:26  <peter1138> 2) owen's site
23:01:56  <jotham_> ok i couldn't find any on the wiki, what is owns URL?
23:02:10  <jotham_> *owen's
23:02:11  *** riot [~wntrmut@clx-ac2-36-3.westend.com] has joined #openttd
23:02:49  <jotham_> oh i see, found it in the wiki, cheers
23:03:05  <helb> gn
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23:59:23  <Ailure> hmm
23:59:33  <Ailure> Is there any logical reasons why the max amount of players is 10?
23:59:45  <Ailure> I would have set a much more liberal limit if I coded the multiplayer. >>

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