Log for #openttd on 16th February 2007:
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00:33:06  <Digitalfox> He's back.. So now i can go to bed and read in the morning the log..  :)
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00:36:45  <KeeperOfTheSoul> damn it, now we can't talk about Digitalfox whilst he's not here >.>
00:37:10  <Sacro|Laptop> could always switch to another channel
00:37:23  <Sacro|Laptop> #insultdigitalfox or something
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00:39:35  * Digitalfox starts channel inspection, looking for evidence of lies about him and collecting proves..
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01:35:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r8753 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Regression (r8455): Do not unilateraly decide that this engine is a single-headed. Only do it if it previously had no power and that now there is. Or something...
01:41:43  <Sacro> Belugas: "Or something..." doesnt fill me with hope
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02:08:17  <Ailure> hmm
02:08:19  <Ailure> hahahahaha
02:08:29  <Ailure> nice typo in the Swedish translation
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02:20:41  <Ailure> also
02:20:52  <Ailure> I woke up to the sounds of the openTTD titlescreen
02:21:06  <Ailure> ...I'm a such nerd, I forgot to close it down while being in a multiplayer game. xD
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04:35:53  <Quark> Hello, can someone advice me how to move files as in makefile_rewrite?
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07:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8754 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp:
07:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
07:32:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Do not handle a special case for goto hangar orders to oilrigs - they do not have a hangar anyway
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07:34:35  <hylje> :o
07:34:44  <Desolator> :O
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07:49:07  <Tron> grr, the depot windows are totally  broken
07:49:14  <Tron> wrong position of sprites
07:49:21  <Tron> wrong vehicles in the build lists
07:49:30  <Tron> who f*** with that stuff?
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08:17:09  <Ailure> I wish economy stats
08:17:12  <Ailure> was kept permamently around
08:17:18  <Ailure> or for a much longer time, like Simcity does :/
08:17:35  <Ailure> past five years or so isn't enough :P
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09:13:19  <Darkvater> morning
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09:33:08  <Ailure> morning
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09:38:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8755 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
09:38:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
09:38:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Abbreviate GetAirport(st->airport_type) to st->Airport()
09:39:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r8756 /trunk/src/video/dedicated_v.cpp:
09:39:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [PSP] -Fix: made the dedicated code compile with PSP. It is almost UNIX, just it needs more includes ;)
09:39:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  (or more, it compiles, if it works is a whole other story ;))
09:42:16  <boekabart_> Darkvater: I compiled trunk with vs2003, clean install on a fresh xp. no patch, but still only runs on 95 and 98, not on nt4. --- what is special about the vs2003 that is used for the official build?
09:43:11  <Darkvater> I have not tried trunk/ yet on anything
09:43:17  <Darkvater> 0.5 is from before cpp
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09:50:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r8757 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs):
09:50:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Add: added libtimidity music driver (it is a nice small library simular to timidity via extmidi)
09:50:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [PSP] -Add: added PSP specific code for libtimidity. libtimidity code is based on the work of Turulo. Tnx a bunch!
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10:08:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r8758 /trunk/ (config.lib configure): -Fix r8757: wrong variable to check libtimidity on if it is found or not
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10:27:48  <boekabart_> trunk has cpp?
10:28:19  <boekabart_> anyway, ok i'll try 050 then
10:29:42  <Darkvater> otherwise I donnu what changes trunk/ exactly has
10:29:53  <boekabart_> doesn't matter
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10:55:49  <Ailure> I love translations that uses rarely used words
10:57:58  <Darkvater> -s
10:58:18  <GoneWacko> "translation that uses"
10:58:22  <GoneWacko> har har.
10:58:29  <GoneWacko> har.
10:59:52  <Ailure> heh
11:00:01  <Ailure> I should contact a translator about some typo I found anyway
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12:10:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r8759 /trunk/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp airport.cpp airport.h airport_movement.h): -Feature: Allow airports to have up to 4 entry points depending on approach direction. Note: they're not yet used, but will be soon
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12:39:06  <Neonox> Tron_ ping
12:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> do you ever say anything else?
12:39:32  <Neonox> eh. no
12:39:35  <Neonox> :)
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12:46:39  <boekabart_> Darkvater: I tried. the same clean XP install, installed vs2003, (no dx/platform sdk), built 050 RC5, exe works on 95 but not on NT4: crash.
12:47:08  <boekabart_> there must be something different in the official built environment...
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12:49:12  <Darkvater> boekabart_: and the official RC5 works on NT4?
12:49:16  <boekabart_> yep
12:49:27  <Darkvater> and RC4/RC3?
12:49:32  <Darkvater> what kind of crash?
12:49:32  <boekabart_> does it matter?
12:49:41  <boekabart_> access violation
12:49:58  <Darkvater> yes (rubidium did RC5, I did RC4 (bad) and RC3 (good)
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12:50:41  <boekabart_> do you have just the exes at hand?
12:51:16  <boekabart_> sourceforge site doesn't work in IE2 (nt4) ;(
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12:55:39  <dihedral> i managed to output the current game state btw
12:55:50  <dihedral> sorry - not state - date is what i meant
12:56:59  <boekabart_> why does strgen keep building all the time, annoying
13:01:46  <Darkvater> boekabart_: eh sorry no, i can get you the link though
13:04:03  <Darkvater>
13:04:08  <Darkvater>
13:13:20  <MiHaMeK> [NSFW]
13:15:21  <boekabart_> fuck my ass!!
13:15:40  <Sionide> ...
13:15:43  <boekabart_> it was the dbg version that crashes on nt4 (probably some assert that fails), the release ver works
13:15:55  <boekabart_> even with target platform set to 2ksp6 in the stdafx.h
13:17:16  <Darkvater> he
13:17:27  <Darkvater> asserts DON'T crash
13:17:44  <boekabart_> anyway, the dbg version crashes, the release works like a charming charm
13:18:00  <boekabart_> so, i guess my patch is safe :)
13:20:46  <Darkvater> I wonder what the dbg version crashes on...
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13:27:07  <boekabart_> me too; why doesn't the vs2005 version run on 95 98 , actually? says smth about IsDebuggerPresent...
13:27:13  <Darkvater> that's why
13:27:43  <boekabart_> that's all?
13:27:57  <Darkvater> fucking vs2005 implicitly links to this function whether you want it or not and it's not present in kernel32.dll
13:28:14  <Darkvater> I could not find a way to not link against this function,e ven with a stub
13:28:15  <boekabart_> Client Requires Windows Vista, Windows XP, Windows 2000 Professional, Windows NT Workstation 4.0, Windows Me, or Windows 98.
13:28:15  <boekabart_> Server Requires Windows Server "Longhorn", Windows Server 2003, Windows 2000 Server, or Windows NT Server 4.0.
13:28:19  <Darkvater> just gaay, very very gay
13:28:24  <boekabart_> only 95 , 98 and nt4 should work
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13:28:53  <boekabart_> 95 is gay anyway. my colleague is doing smth on it today, and notices: jeeez windows 95 crashes easily
13:28:58  <boekabart_> cough! crash.
13:29:10  <boekabart_> not that gays crash a lot... or do they?
13:29:43  <Darkvater> w95 is pretty crappy...I even got it to crash using openttd in a debugger
13:30:09  <boekabart_> so can't 95 be not supported? ;)
13:30:20  <boekabart_> (is there actually a DOS version of ottd?)
13:30:34  <Darkvater> why? 99.99% works on w95
13:30:45  <boekabart_> of people or of functions? :)
13:30:48  <Darkvater> I am not going to add some gay XP-only function
13:31:08  <boekabart_> as i said: isDebuggerPresent "Client Requires Windows Vista, Windows XP, Windows 2000 Professional, Windows NT Workstation 4.0, Windows Me, or Windows 98.  "
13:31:12  <Darkvater> of openttd, for the remaining .01% I've made some simple workarounds
13:31:18  <Darkvater> so?
13:31:20  <boekabart_> which are those, eg?
13:31:22  <Darkvater> VS2003 works
13:31:56  <Darkvater> some shell functions, registry differences
13:32:05  <Darkvater> and keyboard input
13:32:14  <Darkvater> luckily MSLU does a pretty good job
13:32:54  <boekabart_> what if you define _WIN32_WINDOWS_ to be == 0x0400 ?
13:33:05  <boekabart_> they IsDebuggerPresent isn't defined
13:33:25  <Darkvater> donnu, never messed around with winversions
13:33:33  <boekabart_> WinBase.h: #if (_WIN32_WINNT >= 0x0400) || (_WIN32_WINDOWS > 0x0400)
13:33:33  <boekabart_> WINBASEAPI BOOL WINAPI IsDebuggerPresent(     VOID     );
13:34:00  <boekabart_> win versions: but with latest sdk , we need to since it won't compile without
13:34:11  <boekabart_> let me do some tests, i'll let you know
13:34:30  <Darkvater> question is not if it isn't available but if it still links against or not
13:34:54  <boekabart_> true... i'll let you know
13:38:14  <boekabart_> only fontcache.c doesn't compile not
13:38:17  <boekabart_> now
13:39:13  <Darkvater> why not?
13:40:39  <boekabart_> some func of WITH_FREETYPE doesn't exist when WINNT_VER_ isn't set to 2000 or higher
13:40:44  <boekabart_> i'll try without freetype
13:40:48  <Darkvater> which func?
13:41:00  <boekabart_> i sec and i'll tell you
13:41:05  <Darkvater> sec's up ;)
13:41:16  <boekabart_> fontcache.c(113) : error C2065: 'SHGFP_TYPE_CURRENT' : undeclared identifier
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13:42:05  <boekabart_> which only is defined in SHlObj.h (platformsdk) if  " #if (NTDDI_VERSION >= NTDDI_WIN2K) "
13:42:05  <Darkvater> ah
13:42:09  <Darkvater> but that's only a simple define
13:42:35  <boekabart_> enum, 0
13:42:56  <Darkvater> openttd/src/win32.h:42:#define SHGFP_TYPE_CURRENT 0
13:43:01  <boekabart_> but that piece of code isn't available on nt4 or non-nt, apparently ?
13:43:41  <Darkvater> openttd/src/win32.h:33:/* Override SHGetFolderPath with our custom implementation */
13:43:55  <boekabart_> __MINGW32__ ?
13:45:08  <Darkvater> mingw doesn't have this define
13:45:33  <Darkvater> but we can also define it for winver<ancient if we use some min windws version
13:45:33  <boekabart_> what is mingw?
13:46:04  <boekabart_> why doesn't this happen on vs2003 build, actually?
13:46:08  <boekabart_> (it doesn't)
13:46:16  <boekabart_> no freetype?
13:46:45  <boekabart_> hm, no that's not it
13:48:13  <Darkvater> mingw: gcc compiler for win32 (kinda)
13:48:25  <Darkvater> what doesn't happen on vs2003?
13:48:33  <Darkvater> all your problems are caused by the vista SDK
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13:57:01  <Belugas> hello
14:00:46  <dihedral> how do i truncate a file in c++?
14:01:08  <dihedral> i am thinking along the lines of an optional parameter to 'script' in order to truncate the file before writing to it
14:01:33  <SpComb> open it up as w instead of a or r+?
14:01:50  <dihedral> sweet :-)
14:01:52  <dihedral> cheers
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14:13:58  <dihedral> and how do i get hold of the system time?
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14:14:23  <boekabart_> DarkVater: 1 problem is caused by 'latest platform sdk' yes. not valid?
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14:20:52  <boekabart_> Darkvater: target win95 on vs2005 answer: (3th post @ )
14:20:58  <boekabart_> (complicated hack :) )
14:21:18  <boekabart_> guess the vs80 CRT thinks it needs it
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14:40:16  <Brianetta> we have a Schroedinbug
14:40:18  <Brianetta> I just found a bug
14:40:20  <Brianetta> and bow I have found it, it always occurs
14:40:29  <Brianetta> and I look at the code and realise that it couldn't possible have worked before
14:40:40  <Brianetta> This is the second one I've ever seen
14:40:49  <Brianetta> and even one is rare enough
14:40:55  <Brianetta> but two ina lifetime?
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14:44:10  <Bjarni> well
14:44:42  <Bjarni> a while ago, I used fontconfig in a build where the makefile disabled fontconfig
14:44:54  <Bjarni> I never figured out why and I couldn't reproduce the event
14:45:30  <Bjarni> but I did manage to change the makefile so it would not disable support by default :)
14:45:38  <Bjarni> even better than reproducing the bug
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16:47:08  <Maedhros> hi
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16:56:25  <Belugas> hey Maedhros
16:58:12  <Maedhros> hey Belugas
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17:33:25  <Wolf01> hello
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17:52:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8760 /branches/newhouses/ (117 files in 16 dirs): [NewHouses] -Sync with trunk r8651:8759
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18:03:07  <Wolf01> this software is THE software :O
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18:12:52  <Born_Acorn> Can I play Minesweeper on it?
18:13:05  <Born_Acorn> Because if not, it is not the software at al.
18:13:08  <Born_Acorn> l
18:14:05  <Maedhros> any opinions on before i commit it (to newhouses) ?
18:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> its for windows only... it can't be THE software
18:14:53  <Wolf01> is THE windows software :P
18:15:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is an oxymoron ;)
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18:33:17  <Belugas> DaleStan : ping
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18:36:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r8761 /branches/0.5/lang/ (9 files): [0.5] -Update: add some missing strings that are in 0.5, but not in trunk.
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18:39:40  <Desolator> [NewHouses] -Sync with trunk r8651:8759 --> what? newhouses work? cool!
18:40:47  <Belugas> been a while ^_^
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18:44:24  <Desolator> =D
18:44:42  <Desolator> I hoep that TTRS 3 works
18:45:04  <Maedhros> it does
18:45:34  <Belugas> you tell test it :)  That would be another happy tester ;)
18:45:55  <DaleStan> Belugas: pong
18:45:58  <Desolator> Yay! Is it compiled or do I need to do it myself? Just asking
18:46:08  <Desolator> Hmm...not nightly time...
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18:46:28  <Belugas>
18:46:50  <Belugas> DaleStan, hello
18:47:15  <Belugas> do you know if the grfids of newhouses are available on ttdpatch savegames?
18:48:25  <Belugas> newhouses or any other, by the way :S
18:48:33  <Maedhros> Desolator: it'll be compiled later on this evening
18:48:53  <Maedhros> (in about 2 and a bit hours, i think)
18:49:09  <Desolator> in about 10 minutes
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18:49:24  <Maedhros> no, newhouses isn't compiled at the same time as the nightlies are
18:49:25  <DaleStan> TTDPatch saves all active non-FFFFFFFF GRFIDs in one of the mandatory-load additional data sections.
18:49:35  <Desolator> oh
18:49:41  <DaleStan> ... looking up which one.
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18:51:10  <Wolf01> eheheh, win+logs opens the ottd logs page.. the hard thing is to press [win]+[l]+[o]+[g]+[s] :P
18:52:03  <Desolator> I cant get source from the r8760 branch
18:52:48  <glx> Desolator: svn co svn://
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18:53:17  <Desolator> THank you!
18:54:07  <Desolator> Can't wait to test it.
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18:55:27  <DaleStan> Belugas: 2.0r1 puts the known GRFIDs in the optional-load section 2; 2.5 puts them in mandatory-load section (800)4.
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18:56:52  <Maedhros> DaleStan: in ttdpatch newhouses also stores lists of grfids<->newhouse ids
18:57:06  <Maedhros> do you know where that would be, or how we could find out?
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18:58:25  <DaleStan> I believe that is 8005.
19:00:20  <DaleStan> The IDs used for each of the extra chunks, and the corresponding contents, are documented starting near line 65 of TTDPatch's trunk/patches/loadsave.asm
19:00:46  <Belugas> thanks :) much appreciated
19:01:04  *** scia [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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19:05:52  <Darkvater> boekabart: way not worth it (to get w95 to work on vs2005)
19:07:33  <Darkvater> Maedhros: I already have code that loads all TTDP grfid's so don't bother :)
19:08:02  <Darkvater> "documented starting near line 65 of TTDPatch'" << he, documented... assembly code is not a document :)
19:08:11  <Darkvater> but patchman is and he is most helpful :)
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19:09:41  <Maedhros> Darkvater: cool, but newhouses also stores extra information about which house id comes from which grf
19:10:07  <DaleStan> Well, you'll get the right chunk ID from there. For some of the chunks, a couple educated guesses should work well, and if they don't, I'm not the person to ask about the actual contents of the chunks.
19:10:16  <Darkvater> well TTDP only saves grfids and the newhouses array in the extra chunks
19:11:28  <Darkvater> Rubidium: ping
19:14:01  <Ailure> hehe
19:14:06  <Ailure> I'm bit of an ass on this game
19:14:11  <Ailure> despite playing within the rules
19:14:11  <Desolator> Awww...may somebody tell me again where to change from debug to release?
19:14:31  <Desolator> Please?
19:14:38  <Ailure> excluse transporting rights
19:14:44  <Ailure> or whatever it's called in local authority options
19:14:53  <Ailure> have funny effects on some people's networks :)
19:14:55  * Darkvater picks up magic ball to find out what OS and compiler Desolator is using
19:14:58  <Ailure> if they're badly designed
19:15:10  <Ailure> such as the waiting trains jamming the whole network
19:15:20  <Desolator> DV: XP SP2, VC++ 2005
19:15:36  <Desolator> Though nice joke :)
19:15:38  <Ailure> note that this player in question have a company bigger than mine so heh
19:15:45  <Ailure> so i'm not bullying a small company :P
19:15:47  <Darkvater> Desolator: it was not a joke
19:15:56  <Bjarni> yeah
19:15:57  <Darkvater> and I gather you have never used MSVC before
19:16:04  <Desolator> you actually have a magic ball?
19:16:12  <Bjarni> Darkvater can really tell stuff that's not in the channel
19:16:12  <Desolator> Heh, I have it for 3 days...
19:16:26  <Bjarni> like me
19:17:31  <Darkvater> Desolator: although the most simplest of google searches would've found what you were looking for...
19:17:39  <Darkvater> there is a big dropdown button that says 'Debug'
19:17:40  * Desolator feels and is lazy
19:17:52  <Darkvater> now try to guess what happens when you change that to
19:17:55  <Darkvater> *shock*
19:17:58  <Desolator> Ha, it was under my nose...
19:17:59  <Darkvater> 'Release'
19:18:47  <Desolator> I always miss obious (spell?) stuff...
19:18:58  <Desolator> And don't miss hard to find stuff...
19:19:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r8762 /branches/newhouses/src/ (7 files): [NewHouses] -Codechange: Split m7 out of Tile and into TileExtended to keep Tile an even 8 bytes.
19:19:51  <Maedhros> and with that, newhouses is ready to merge, i hope
19:19:53  * Desolator stops compiling and updates
19:20:48  <Tron> that's the worst of all solutions
19:21:18  <Maedhros> gah, it's not like i haven't been asking for opinions for the last three days...
19:22:18  <Maedhros> Tron: what would be a better solution?
19:22:22  <Desolator> -.-
19:22:22  <Belugas> the worst solutoin woulsd have been to keep the array at 9 bytes
19:22:46  <Tron> i don't agree
19:22:55  <Belugas> suggestions?
19:23:06  <DaleStan> Remember, just because x86 processors have no trouble with 9-byte structures doesn't mean that other processors have the same abilities.
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19:23:29  <Tron> DaleStan: do not try to tell me something about processor architectures
19:23:39  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:23:57  <Belugas> we want ideas, sugestions, the BEST solution. please
19:24:10  <Tron> in fact factor except 1, 2, 4 and 8 are pessimal for x86
19:24:25  <Tron> s/factor/factors/
19:24:33  <Desolator> Interesting stuff...I like how the discussion moves from software to hardware and then to software and to hardware and so on...
19:25:34  <DaleStan> Tron: x86 effective address calculations can multiply by 9 quite easily. Ditto for 3 and 5.
19:25:47  <Tron> DaleStan: you are wrong
19:25:50  <Ailure> I want to start a discussion on firmware now
19:25:56  <Ailure> esxpect I know nothing about firmwares
19:25:56  <Ailure> :p
19:25:58  <Tron> you can multiply a NUMBER with 9 easily
19:26:00  <DaleStan> Lea esi, [esi*8+esi]
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19:26:06  <Tron> but you cannot access an array effectifly
19:26:25  <Tron> because the base is already used for the base of the array
19:26:31  <DaleStan> OK, lea esi [baseadd + esi + esi*8]
19:26:40  <Tron> the base is NOT fixed
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19:27:15  <DaleStan> So add an add afterwards; that's one extra cycle.
19:27:29  <Tron> nice theory, too bad it's wrong
19:27:49  <Tron> you need at least one more register
19:28:31  <Tron> and registers are a very scarce resource on x86
19:29:26  <DaleStan> No, you don't. Unless you're managing to squeeze base and index into the same register before the EA calculation?
19:29:47  <Tron> you need an extra register to hold the calculated address
19:30:09  *** Desolator[TOILET] is now known as Desolator
19:30:10  <Tron> or rather scaled index
19:30:27  <DaleStan> Use the same register you used for the un-scaled index.
19:30:27  <Tron> lea a, [a + a * 8]
19:30:35  <Tron> mov b, [c + a]
19:30:51  <Tron> in this case you don't need an extra register, because the original value is dead
19:30:57  <Tron> this is an unusual case
19:31:02  <Tron> therefore you normally get
19:31:07  <Tron> lea d, [a + a * 8]
19:31:09  <Brianetta> This is totally old-school.  I haven't seen attempts to optimise at CPU level for years.
19:31:10  <Tron> mov b, [c + d]
19:31:18  <Desolator> jeez...
19:31:35  <Tron> which means one more used register
19:31:51  <Tron> which ususally leads to significantly more spill code on x86
19:32:11  <Tron> because the ISA design is plain braindead
19:33:41  <Tron> even then you don't want 9 bytes, because this leads to misaligned accesses of the entities larger than 1 byte
19:34:09  <Tron> which is a no-no for the write combiners etc.
19:34:27  <Tron> so you have to go for 10 bytes (because it holds 2byte entities)
19:34:37  <Tron> and you can't lea a 10
19:35:46  <Maedhros> ok, so this seems to emphasise to me that 9-byte struct arrays are bad
19:35:59  <Maedhros> so why are 8-byte and 1-byte struct arrays worse?
19:36:25  <Belugas> or could a 10 byte struct array be acceptable?
19:36:53  <Darkvater> < sports
19:36:55  <Tron> you need 2 base pointers while we're at the hardware level
19:37:20  * Desolator wonders what dosdummy.grf is for
19:37:34  <Tron> it just fills some sprite slots
19:37:44  <Desolator> oh
19:38:11  <Desolator> BTW, does ottd support multiple parameters?
19:38:18  <Tron> pardon?
19:38:35  <Desolator> "Optionally, you can add up to four numbers (parameters) to the end of the line.
19:38:43  <Desolator> from TTRS 3 readme
19:38:57  <Maedhros> then yes, openttd supports newgrf parameters
19:38:59  <Tron> Maedhros: on a higher level: check r2558. i don't want that back
19:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, comma or space separated list, Desolator
19:39:31  <Desolator> Thanks
19:39:32  * Maedhros looks
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19:40:04  <Tron> Maedhros: mainly check map.h, the other changes are just long and tedious
19:40:34  <Desolator> Eddi|zuHause2: like this: newgrf\ttrs3w.GRF 0,0,1,1?
19:40:51  <Belugas> Tron, do we have to understand that you'd rather see a 10 bytes structure?
19:40:56  <Belugas> then anything else?
19:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> have you ever considered just reading the wiki?
19:41:15  <Tron> i still have a hard time believing houses are the problem
19:41:30  <Tron> they're mostly eye candy
19:41:30  <Desolator> Actually never look at that part...
19:41:45  <Belugas> believe me, it is required
19:41:56  <Tron> they hardly have any game significant state
19:42:43  <DaleStan> Oh, so let's change all Tron's houses so they accept 3/8 units of coal and nothing else.
19:42:49  <Tron> except for their sheer existence to produce passengers
19:43:11  <Belugas> triggers, animations etc etc...
19:43:23  <Belugas> but please Tron, 10 bytes better?
19:44:06  <DaleStan> The acceptance is significant. The ways that the acceptance can change are significant.
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19:44:38  <Tron> DaleStan: you miss the point entierly
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19:45:43  <Tron> Belugas: do you know how much 2^64 is? if you can count really fast - like incrementing by one one billion times a second - it takes more than 500 years to count all possible states
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19:46:57  <Desolator> ha, first bug
19:47:10  <Maedhros> be that as it may, it is impossible to implement the newhouse specs with the current map array
19:47:15  <Maedhros> believe us, we've tried
19:48:02  <Belugas> and we even had to drop some stuff
19:48:03  <Tron> something is very, very wrong here
19:48:19  <Tron> it's just houses
19:49:40  <Maedhros> random bits -> 8 bits, house id -> 9 bits, age of house /  construction state -> 8 bits
19:49:42  <Desolator> Maedhros: I don't understanf, if its impossible, then how did the guys @ TTDP did it?
19:50:00  <Desolator> *understand
19:50:17  <Maedhros> because they a) don't store the town id in the map array, saving 2 bytes and b) don't use openttd's map array
19:50:46  <Tron> how is b) a valid argument?
19:50:48  <Maedhros> animation frame -> 5 bits, whether a house is completed -> 1 bit, periodic processing time remaining -> 8 bits
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19:52:11  <Belugas> [14:51] <Tron> how is b) a valid argument? <--- because it's still a collection of arrays, for once
19:52:21  <Maedhros> *sigh* in this case, it's not terribly valid, although ttdpatch has got 9 bytes to use
19:52:27  <Tron> Belugas: and?
19:52:29  <Belugas> then they do not have the same requirements
19:52:42  <Maedhros> i was just saying that they're not necessarily directly comparable
19:52:47  <Belugas> they are not limited to have 1, 5, 7,9 bytes array
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19:56:02  <Tron> Maedhros: btw: anything else? i see 39 bits so far. If you deduce the mandatory 8 bits for type and height and the 16 bits for town id (though probably 12 would suffice), then there's still one free bit
19:56:17  * Desolator has added a bug report and goes to play RA2
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19:56:19  <Maedhros> i've probably forgotten something
19:56:29  <Belugas> so now, we have 3 choices : 1) 10 bytes array 2) 8 bytes array and 1 byte array 3) cancel newhouses
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19:56:38  <Belugas> 3) is out of the question
19:57:29  <Ailure> what brings the least headache?
19:57:31  <Ailure> :p
19:57:53  <Belugas> depends who you're talking too...
19:59:39  <Maedhros> Tron: there are also 5 bits for triggers which aren't used yet
20:00:02  <Maedhros> but anyway, 39 bits isn't enough because we can only use bits 2..7 of m6 due to the tropic zone
20:03:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tron * r8763 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:
20:03:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix
20:03:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Don't do bogus initialisations and prefer simpler code
20:03:39  <Tron> maybe i could think about it if i didn't have to clean up behind others
20:04:18  <Ailure> wel hmm
20:04:28  <Ailure> personally I would prefer using it in a seperate array
20:04:45  *** peter1138 [] has joined #openttd
20:05:07  <peter1138> is it me
20:05:08  <peter1138> or
20:05:10  <peter1138> should [   49.968000] BUG: soft lockup detected on CPU#0!
20:05:14  <peter1138> not happen on boot up?
20:07:53  <Maedhros> heh, doesn't sound too good, no
20:07:57  <Ailure> wth would a soft lockup be?
20:08:37  <Maedhros> hmm, since i don't have windows / MSVC, Desolator's bug report is completely useless to me
20:08:50  <Ailure> then if I made a simulatr game
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20:08:53  <Maedhros> especially since ttrs3 has never caused the newhouses branch to crash for me
20:09:04  <Ailure> I probably would use some abstract object for the whole array
20:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> the whole point is to not use an array of objects
20:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> to have a continuous chunk of memory
20:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> otherwise, 90% of the time is wasted on cache misses
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20:25:53  * boekabart is going away on a holiday for a week and hopes to see RC6/Final out when he comes back. He still thinks that his proposed patch for making ottd compile with latest platform sdk belongs in; he didn't spend 2 days testing in on all existing windows OSes for nothing...
20:25:57  *** boekabart [] has left #openttd [Your eyes grow heavy.. you grow very sleepy..... zzzz...]
20:26:36  <caladan> still arguing about that additional byte?
20:26:44  <Belugas> and here is the actual layaout of nehwouse :
20:26:45  <Belugas> m1       : random bits
20:26:45  <Belugas> m2       : town index
20:26:45  <Belugas> m3[7]    : house completed          m3[4..0] : triggers
20:26:45  <Belugas> m3[6]    : type
20:26:50  <Belugas> m4       : type
20:26:50  <Belugas> m5[5..3] : building stage           m5       : age
20:26:50  <Belugas> m5[2..0] : building tick
20:26:50  <Belugas> m6[7..2] : lift position            m6[7..3] : animation frame
20:26:50  <Belugas> m6[1..0] : tropic zone
20:26:51  <Belugas> m7[4..1] : lift destination         m7       : processing remaining
20:26:51  <Belugas> m7[0]    : lift has destination
20:27:03  <Belugas> as one can see, not much of a free space there
20:27:08  <Belugas> 2 bits, iirc
20:27:39  <caladan> what is lift destination? :>
20:28:00  <Belugas> the destination florr of the lift
20:28:11  <caladan> in buildings? :>
20:28:15  <caladan> i see..
20:28:20  <Maedhros> you can see the building that uses it on the title screen
20:29:49  * caladan makes emerge --update --deep world
20:42:47  <Belugas> looks like the discussion is over
20:42:57  <Belugas> it's that or else...
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20:45:19  <peter1138> hmm
20:45:24  <peter1138> pc not booting now
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21:06:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r8764 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
21:06:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-02-16 22:03:24
21:06:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 1 changed by TrueTenacity (1)
21:06:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed, 1 changed by fukumori (2)
21:06:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 4 fixed by groupsky (4)
21:06:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 fixed by habell (3)
21:06:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: esperanto - 3 fixed by LaPingvino (3)
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21:09:20  <MiHaMeK> Total I18N status: 96% - 4207 bad strings out of 108072 strings (2844 strings / language)
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21:19:40  <Rubidium> Darkvater: pong
21:20:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> >2h, now that is a lag :p
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21:21:17  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: better a little lag than no reply at all
21:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm not judging ;)
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21:31:06  <Desolator> Boom!
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21:42:31  <Darkvater> Rubidium: roadstops?
21:44:03  <Rubidium> what about them?
21:44:38  <Rubidium> let me rephrase that, what is still wrong with them?
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21:47:31  <Wolf01> 'night all
21:47:43  *** Wolf01 [] has quit []
21:49:42  <Belugas> byebye
21:50:26  <Darkvater> Rubidium: there is still too many checks in road_gui
21:50:53  <Darkvater> Rubidium: it only needs to pass a bit saying whether you want a roadstop or a normal station and the CMD_ has to handle everything else
21:51:18  <Darkvater> now if those checks don't exist in the CMD_ then it is *definitely* wrong
21:51:29  <Darkvater> and if they do, then it's duplicate code and wrong as well
21:52:32  <Rubidium> Darkvater: you haven't seen I already have fixed most of them?
21:52:55  <Darkvater> you mean r8741?
21:52:58  <Rubidium> yes
21:53:07  <Darkvater> head still have a bunch of checks in the gui
21:53:57  <Rubidium> hmm, so the CMD_AUTO flag should be toggled in CmdBuildRoadStop
21:54:00  <Darkvater> s/have/has
21:54:04  <Darkvater> dammit I'm going bjarni
21:54:54  <Rubidium> hmm, or do you mean only checking whether the tile is a road tile is enough in road_gui?
21:55:17  <Darkvater> not even that perse
21:55:19  <Bjarni> <Darkvater>	dammit I'm going bjarni -- are you going to flame me for that as well?
21:55:26  <Bjarni> and it's Bjarni, not bjarni
21:55:30  <Bjarni> it's a name :P
21:55:42  <Darkvater> it's not capitalised if used as a verb ^^
21:56:01  <Bjarni> I'm not a verb either :P
21:56:05  <Darkvater> Rubidium: well not even that perse, because it just duplicates checks and the CMD_ needs to check that either way
21:56:32  <Rubidium> you meant something like I guess
21:57:09  <Darkvater> what's cmd_auto for?
21:57:10  <Darkvater> but yes
21:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> Darkvater: i think english has some rule that words that are derived from names are still capitalized (like "English")
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22:00:02  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: isn't English a name? Though names can become words over time; Internet -> internet
22:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> "English" can also be used as adjective/adverb
22:01:09  <Darkvater> Rubidium: you do see my point, right?
22:01:21  <Rubidium> yes
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22:01:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> names tend to be nouns ;)
22:01:41  <Darkvater> donnu what CMD_AUTO is for though, it is probably unneeded as well I think
22:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, in english class, i generally had it marked as mistake if i wrote "English" not capitalized (because in german it isn't)
22:04:47  <Rubidium> DC_AUTO is by the way used so there is no 'street must be removed' error when building a road stop over a street
22:04:49  <BurningFeetMan> Anyone up to scratch with the latest/second gen PC gear out? P5B mbs, 7950gt's
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22:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> BurningFeetMan: we don't need phallus symbols
22:06:07  <Darkvater> Rubidium: ah...that can be handled in the CMD_ function so probably remove it from the gui
22:06:33  <BurningFeetMan> phal·lus Pronunciation (fls)
22:06:35  <BurningFeetMan> n. pl. phal·li (fl) or phal·lus·es
22:06:36  <BurningFeetMan> 1. Anatomy
22:06:36  <Darkvater> Rubidium: eg a hacked client could remove this and you'd get spammed by these error messages
22:06:38  <BurningFeetMan> a. The penis.
22:06:39  <BurningFeetMan> =\
22:07:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is what it means, yes.
22:07:22  <BurningFeetMan> Eddi|zuHause2, nothing to do with my epenis size, but I'll be playing supreme commander shortly.
22:07:38  <BurningFeetMan> So figured it's upgrade time after 5 years.
22:07:53  <Rubidium> Darkvater: are those printed when bad stuff comes from the network?
22:08:09  <Darkvater> what is printed?
22:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> you are free to upgrade your computer, but you do not need to spam it into a totally unrelated discussion
22:08:42  <Darkvater> Rubidium: just imagine calling the function without CMD_AUTO and you have the effects of a hacked client
22:10:07  <izhirahider> Can any of you tell me how can I use svn to revert to revision XXXX ?
22:10:19  <Darkvater> svn up -r XXXX
22:10:26  <izhirahider> thanks
22:10:38  <Darkvater> or even better
22:10:52  <Darkvater> svn help update
22:11:03  <Darkvater> OMG :O it's all in there :)
22:11:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> who'd have thunk!
22:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> (is that even english?)
22:11:34  <Darkvater> no
22:12:00  <Rubidium> Darkvater: it's still toggling the CMD_AUTO in CmdBuildRoadStop, so if you are toggling it in your hacked client you've got exactly the same characteristics
22:12:20  <Darkvater> Rubidium: so if it's toggling it in CMD_ then why toggle it in GUI?
22:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i think i have read this several times before
22:12:55  <Darkvater> it's "thought"
22:12:59  <Rubidium> Darkvater: in my updated version it toggles it in CmdBuildRoadStop and not in the GUI
22:13:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i know
22:13:17  <Rubidium> but a 'hacked' client can always undo that toggling in CmdBuildRoadStop
22:13:21  <Darkvater> Rubidium: << not this one
22:13:22  <Maedhros> yeah, it's a reasonably well known statement, but it's isn't english :)
22:13:38  <Darkvater> Rubidium: who cares about that? They will desync instantly
22:13:39  <Maedhros> surprisingly like that last sentence ...
22:14:01  <Darkvater> Rubidium: removing it in the gui (and not setting it in the cmd_) will be an annoyance to _all_ players
22:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> so it's somewhere a similar level of english as "yoda speak"
22:14:53  <Rubidium> true, but 'in essence' nothing changes by moving the CMD_AUTO from the gui to the cmd code
22:15:09  <Darkvater> that's a start :)
22:15:14  <Darkvater> so why is it in the gui ;p
22:16:07  <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause2: pretty much, yes
22:16:14  <Rubidium> that's a different issue from the "imagine calling the function without CMD_AUTO and you have the effects of a hacked client"
22:17:03  <Darkvater> it'd be valid if CMD_AUTO was not set in the CmdFunction
22:17:10  <Darkvater> which is, so it makes no difference
22:17:24  <Darkvater> therefore it's pointless to have in the gui
22:17:29  <Digitalfox> So the discussion of newhouses has ended and we can move to merge or we need to go back to the white board?? :\
22:17:34  <Darkvater> which I already said and you're probably getting tired of
22:19:12  <Darkvater> I think I need Belugas's landscape doc for newhouses
22:19:17  <Darkvater> to make some judgement
22:19:43  <Rubidium> I only say that it's bogus to say that 'toggling (CMD|DC)_AUTO in gui is bad as you can 'hack' it, but in cmd it is ok'
22:20:22  <Rubidium> I have no problem with moving the logic to cmd though, this is however not a valid reason, whereas 'we should keep the GUI code as small as possible' would be a valid reason
22:20:39  <Rubidium> anyway, I've updated the diff
22:21:34  <Darkvater> one would assume toggling DC_AUTO in gui is done because it is not done in CMD_
22:23:55  <Darkvater> Rubidium: I am fine with that diff if all checks from the gui that were removed in your diff are present in the CMD_
22:24:02  <Rubidium> which is correct. Without the road_gui-stuff.diff it's done in gui, with the diff it's done in CMD
22:24:09  <Rubidium> Darkvater: they are
22:24:44  <Darkvater> only after r8741 :)
22:24:47  <Darkvater> but then it's good
22:25:31  <Progman> how can I see the debug-lines if I use debug(...);?
22:25:50  <Rubidium> what are the first two parameters you used?
22:26:36  <Rubidium> basically starting openttd with '-d <first param>=<second param or larger>'
22:26:55  <Progman> hmm
22:27:08  <Progman> now its debug("maxspeed is %d", maxspeed);
22:28:26  <Progman> or shouldn't I use debug() and should use DEBUG() instead?
22:29:24  <Rubidium> always use DEBUG
22:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> that's one of the reasons why i hate case-sensitive languages
22:34:16  <KeeperOfTheSoul> yeah, case-senitivity in a language was a truly excellent idea
22:35:20  <Smoovious> shhh... don't say that... you'll only embolden the script kiddies
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22:45:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r8765 /trunk/src/ (road_gui.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: remove logic redundancy by moving it from the gui into the cmd code.
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23:47:47  <Darkvater> bleh branches/newhouses/docs/landscape.html isn't updated with newhouse specs :s
23:53:33  <Darkvater> seemingly though you can't save bits in there
23:54:45  <Darkvater> although perhaps m5 (age) could be half'd (only check per 2 years) and lift bitwasting sanitized (11!!bits), but at some point you'd need more bits anyways
23:55:27  <Progman> I dont get it: where is GetStation() defined?
23:55:51  <Darkvater> station.h
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23:57:24  <Rubidium> Darkvater: I only see 10 bits; dest 3 bits, current level 6 bits and whether it's moving (1 bit)
23:58:00  <Darkvater> m6[7..2] : lift position  m7[4..1] : lift destination m7[0]    : lift has destination
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23:58:16  <Darkvater> that still looks 11 to me
23:59:09  <Progman> sure it is in station.h? dont find it or dont understand it o_O
23:59:12  <Rubidium> hmm, then there is 1 bit that can be easily freed; the one from the current level
23:59:49  <Darkvater> Progman: it's poolerized, you don't need to understand it

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