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Log for #openttd on 7th March 2007:
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09:55:17  <Desolator> hello everybody
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10:03:35  <boekabart_> hello Desolator ;)
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11:47:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9050 /trunk/src/ (180 files in 12 dirs): -Codechange: Foo(void) -> Foo()
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12:11:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9051 /trunk/src/ (138 files in 10 dirs): -Codechange: typedef [enum|struct] Y {} X; -> [enum|struct] X {};
12:23:09  *** Hadez [~chatzilla@151.244.broadband7.iol.cz] has joined #openttd
12:23:15  <Hadez> Hi everyone :-)
12:23:58  <Hadez> I wonder why there is {COMMA} in buy vehicle window. Number of vehicles is always integral...
12:24:25  <Hadez> I need {NUM} there because I want to use {P ...}
12:25:33  <peter1138> it's english
12:25:39  <peter1138> COMMA being the thousands separator
12:26:19  <peter1138> either way NUM or COMMA shouldn't matter for plurals
12:27:15  <Hadez> I think plurals don't work with {COMMA} then. Even in English, there is [My Company] - 1 Trains.
12:27:22  <Hadez> Current SVN.
12:27:30  <peter1138> does it work as NUM?
12:28:39  <Hadez> No, plural is ignored. See STR_881B_TRAINS :{WHITE}{COMPANY} - {COMMA} Train{P "" s}
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12:28:51  <peter1138> hence my question
12:28:54  <peter1138> does it work as NUM
12:29:03  <peter1138> i.e. changing COMMA to NUM
12:29:48  <Hadez> Wait.
12:30:06  <peter1138> (it shouldn't...)
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12:31:19  <peter1138> might be because COMPANY is before COMMA
12:31:25  <peter1138> i.e. a bug
12:31:34  <peter1138> well, clearly there's a bug because it doesn't work
12:32:39  <Hadez> Changing {COMMA} to {NUM} in my translation and in English didn't success.
12:32:48  <Hadez> As expected.
12:32:57  <peter1138> yeah
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12:37:15  <peter1138> strgen bug i think
12:37:29  <peter1138> hmm
12:37:33  <peter1138> or not
12:37:42  <peter1138> bah
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12:41:03  <lolman> Gah @ SSH
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12:47:01  <Hadez> I can tell that "STR_SCHEDULED_TRAINS :{WHITE}{STATION} - {COMMA} Train{P "" s}"
12:47:02  <Hadez> works.
12:48:56  <peter1138> maybe it's because {COMPANY} consumes an argument
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13:10:28  <peter1138> hmm, that should be handled
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13:13:59  <Kittysune> oh god
13:14:03  <Kittysune> ...
13:14:04  <Kittysune> asdf
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13:22:04  <Brianetta> Kittysune?
13:27:05  <peter1138> hee
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14:11:16  <Belugas> hello
14:13:31  <Sacro|Laptop> hello
14:15:29  <Descyber> hello
14:17:04  <Progman> hello
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14:22:57  <mikk36> Q: does ottd use multiple cores if available ?
14:24:03  <Sacro|Laptop> no
14:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> only saving and land generation are threaded
14:26:26  <Belugas> as Sacro|Laptop and Eddi|zuHause2 are saying, answer is no.
14:26:28  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: not really threaded
14:26:33  <Belugas> wuld be a mess to do
14:29:25  <Rubidium> compressing the savegame is done in a separate thread and the land generation is kind of a hack for multithreading, it's only used so it can pause the generation process while redrawing the window so there are no inconsistent states
14:37:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: celestar * r9052 /branches/gamebalance/src/fixedt.h: [gamebalance] -Add: Unary minus operator for FixedT
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14:43:10  <boekabart_> Actually I think the drawing could be done in a separate thread. The loop already does a collect, then a draw. That draw could be done in a separate thread.. maybe?
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14:49:23  <Rubidium> boekabart_: it could be done in a separate thread, but it is a huge amount of work because you have to cache everything you want to actually draw before actually starting to draw
14:50:07  <Rubidium> that includes the depot windows etc.
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15:14:24  <boekabart_> Maybe it would be easier to run the game loop in the background, and render it once in a while. Nevermind ;)
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15:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> honestly, i don't think any system having multiple cores has a problem with running the game in one core
15:26:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> so it's totally not worth the effort
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15:28:44  <KUDr_wrk> even on single core the game is not totally dead during saving thanks to multithreading
15:28:46  <ln-> i have a dual-P166 over there... i have never powered it up though.
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15:32:11  <peter1138> dual core machine -- run the server & client on the same box :D
15:32:18  <boekabart_> I also have a dual P2-233 sitting in a corner... could be useful to use both
15:32:22  <peter1138> if only it didn't need twice the memory...
15:33:18  <boekabart_> is a server useful when playing alone? does it give any speed advantage? i think not...
15:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> "speed advantage"? where the hell would that come from?
15:34:54  <|2rB> things goind slower ? that is an advantage
15:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> having "additional functionality" does usually not go well with "speed advantage"
15:35:55  <hylje> boekabart_: server brings persistent gaming
15:36:10  <hylje> boekabart_: you can play the same game from several games with no need for version control for savegames
15:36:19  <hylje> s/several games/several locations/
15:36:51  <boekabart_> ok. But no advantage in terms of 'part of the logic running on server (CPU), freeing client CPU
15:36:54  <boekabart_> ??
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15:37:15  <hylje> the client runs the same game as the server
15:37:20  <hylje> they just keep it in sync
15:37:37  <hylje> no performance bonus with current architecture
15:38:02  <boekabart_> Question answered.
15:42:17  <ammler> Im looking for assistance to configure my Laptop with sound, could someone help here?
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15:45:56  <ammler> sorry, wrong channel ;)
15:47:05  <Sacro|Laptop> ammler: what OS?
15:47:18  <ammler> Suse
15:47:32  <ammler> (Linux)
15:48:59  <Descyber> what laptop?
15:50:35  <glx> or at least what sound chip
15:51:12  <ammler> mom, im looking
15:51:35  <Sacro|Laptop> lspci
15:52:20  <ammler> HDA Controller
15:52:33  <ammler> 82801G
15:52:39  <boekabart_> look for HD Audio driver at intel.com
15:53:06  <ammler> The sound is runnig, if I do alsaconf manually
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15:53:35  <boekabart_> put in in 'autoexec' then :)
15:53:55  <ammler> yeah, I thought that too, but there is an other problem
15:54:22  <Sacro|Laptop> snd_hda_intel
15:54:26  <Sacro|Laptop> and snd_hda_codecs
15:54:39  <ammler> The Volume can't be adjust with the builtin buttons on the notebook
15:54:42  <Sacro|Laptop> ammler: 'alsamixer'
15:55:27  <ammler> Sacro|Laptop: Are there Repos for Suse?
15:55:45  <Sacro|Laptop> ammler: err... should be already isntalled, or part of alsa_utils
15:55:54  <Sacro|Laptop> i haven't used suse in a looooooong time
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15:56:52  <Descyber> snd_hda_intel/codec are kernel modules, aren't they?
15:58:20  <Descyber> then again, who knows with suse..
15:58:29  * Descyber tries to suppress bad momeries with suse..
16:01:17  <SwordFish> kus
16:01:19  <SwordFish> sry
16:02:19  <Sacro|Laptop> Descyber: yes, they are
16:03:25  <Descyber> so on suse you'd tell yast or whoever to add those modules to /etc/modules or whatever and then in theory it should work ;)
16:04:05  <Descyber> ammler: as for the hardware buttons, depends on your notebook really, on my thinkpad they address the hardware directly, but other buttons work via acpi..
16:04:15  <ammler> sorry, was away accidentally
16:07:21  <OwenS> People use SuSE? I tried it and found I was always waiting for YaST to do something...
16:07:40  <Descyber> OwenS: i don't ;)
16:07:55  <Descyber> i try not to remember it..
16:08:17  <Sacro|Laptop> i found i was always fighting suse
16:08:23  <OwenS> I also found it's lack of any mentioned command line package utility infuriating
16:08:40  <OwenS> Oh, and it doesn't support any of my 3 graphics cards...
16:08:57  <Descyber> well that's not really a suse issue i'd say..
16:09:59  <OwenS> network cards**
16:10:19  <OwenS> It didn't even support a Linksys <whatever>, which is common as dirt...
16:11:12  <Descyber> i'd say that's a kernel issue
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16:12:05  <OwenS> SuSE 10 didn't support it and Debian Sarge, on a 2.4 kernel, did
16:12:24  <caladan> so its matter of kernel, should have compiled it on your own
16:12:58  <OwenS> How the heck am I supposed to download the kernel sources? ...
16:13:11  <caladan> use pendrive?
16:13:23  <caladan> use livecd, save at partition, mount it under that suse?
16:13:38  <OwenS> It wouldn't even install... I ALWAYS netinstall my distros
16:14:08  <caladan> strange thing, im not for suse, but i guess it can be done somehow
16:16:39  *** thgergo [~th_gergo@dsl51B7A123.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd
16:16:46  <Descyber> caladan: depends how much pain you can take ;)
16:17:09  <caladan> hehe, i can take a lot of pain, used slack for a long time :D
16:17:39  <Descyber> "i still use windows" - "well, masochism is a matter of choice.."
16:17:44  <OwenS> If a distro won't netinstall, IHMO, it's too much hastle to be worth my time
16:18:16  <Descyber> i think the last non-netinstall was debian potato back in.. uhmm.. errr.. 99?
16:19:28  <OwenS> The only time I have not netinstalled is when it has come on an LXF coverdvd
16:20:20  <Descyber> i stopped buying magazines after i worked at a place which takes part in getting advertisements into them :>
16:21:41  <OwenS> LXF has, added together, about 10 pages of adverts per issue
16:23:22  <Descyber> it's just insane how much companies invest in advertising..
16:23:27  <OwenS> Sorry, I forgot 1&1, who seem to have 5 to themselves. However, thats easily removed if one can't ignore them since it never is on the same leave as a content page ^^
16:23:41  <Descyber> hehe
16:24:12  <Descyber> there's no adblock for real life tho ;)
16:24:36  <OwenS> I find it ironic they have 2 pages advertising windows software in Linux Format...
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16:25:33  <Descyber> depends on the target group the magazine claims to have in their media data..
16:25:58  <OwenS> 1&1 run the same advert in about 25 magazines I think...
16:26:37  <Descyber> have to abide by CI ;)
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16:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd totally hate netinstall
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16:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd rather wait a day to download the complete install dvd, while still being able to do other things
16:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> than waiting half a day downloading the packages i actually install, while i can't do anything
16:35:06  <OwenS> I generally spend an hour... Which I spend on the other PC
16:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> and i had absolutely no hardware issues with SuSE
16:35:23  <OwenS> I download a new distro rarely anway.. In fact, only after a hardware failiure or change
16:35:31  <Rubidium> for me it's the other way around, don't want to wait for the slow dvd, netinstall is much faster (in my case) and I've got up-to-date packages at once
16:35:39  <OwenS> ^^ Yep
16:36:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i have almost the slowest connection that is possible
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16:36:29  <OwenS> 300 baud?
16:36:38  <Sacro|Laptop> ouch, that is slow
16:36:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> i said almost ;)
16:36:42  <Rubidium> ISDN-D ?
16:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, i have DSL-light
16:37:09  <OwenS> Oh. At least it's not CPIP
16:37:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> (so half of normal DSL)
16:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's the slowest available connection that has a flatrate
16:37:52  <Descyber> sounds painful, my condolences
16:38:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i live 15km away from anything, so i am lucky to get DSL at all
16:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> it took like 5 years
16:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> life without flatrate (on ISDN) was more painful
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16:40:23  <Descyber> life w/out flatfee internet.. *shudder*
16:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it's like living in a 3rd world country
16:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i live in east germany, so that is close enough...
16:44:26  <Descyber> germany in general is close enough, the legislation for sure is..
16:44:46  <Descyber> gotta love banana-europe, but oh well..
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16:46:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r9053 /trunk/config.lib: -Change [Config]: removed unneeded stuff for windows
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16:57:25  <ammler> back: Now; I have installed alsamixer and GUI
16:57:44  <ammler> Sound is here, but very low
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17:42:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r9054 /trunk/src/lang/ (20 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:42:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-03-07 18:39:14
17:42:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 fixed by arnaullv (2)
17:42:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 95 fixed, 34 changed by Ydobon (129)
17:42:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed, 3 deleted, 109 changed by Hadez (113)
17:42:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 4 fixed by ThomasA (4)
17:42:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 fixed by habell (2)
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17:46:20  <mikk36> question
17:46:26  <mikk36> about the color system
17:46:31  <peter1138> hmm?
17:46:39  <mikk36> i can specify different colors to different stuff
17:46:40  <mikk36> but
17:46:47  <mikk36> for trains
17:47:02  <mikk36> this only matters for railroad vehicles
17:47:26  <mikk36> monorail and maglev's wagons take color from the engine
17:47:33  <peter1138> yeah
17:47:33  *** glx|away [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:47:36  <mikk36> why so ?
17:47:43  <mikk36> a "feature" ?
17:47:54  <peter1138> cos that's how i wrote it
17:48:00  <mikk36> but why ? :P
17:48:09  <peter1138> cos using monorail/maglev for freight is stupid ;p
17:48:31  <SwordFish> dno about that :P they're way faster
17:48:32  <mikk36> even passanger's wagons are same color as the engine
17:48:54  <hylje> eye candy thing
17:49:01  <peter1138> yeah, like dmu/emus
17:49:18  <hylje> consistent looking trains are way nicr
17:49:26  <mikk36> depends
17:49:41  <Smoovious> I could see using maglev for finished goods and containers and stuff... but not for raw materials...
17:50:08  <Smoovious> might not be such a good idea to haul iron ore or finished steel on maglev... :D
17:50:24  <hylje> afaik teh default grf maglev supports all cargo
17:50:30  <hylje> so why the hell not :>
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17:50:47  <mikk36> still, peter1138
17:51:01  <Smoovious> so make your own rolling stock GRF
17:51:21  <mikk36> even if u say that consistent color trains a nicer, why did u add an option to paint wagons for railroad trains ?
17:51:25  <Smoovious> all the GRF's are 3rd-party stuff...
17:52:18  <peter1138> cos historically railway carriages and engines have been different colours, heh
17:52:33  <mikk36> butin future they have to be the same color ?
17:52:46  <mikk36> u're restricting the design :)
17:52:51  <Smoovious> and historically (what there is of them), DMU/EMU's were all designed as a complete unit
17:53:22  <Smoovious> mikk36... the GRF authors make their GRF's according to what they want... make your own GRF if you want to
17:53:53  <mikk36> that still won't give me an option to paint maglev wagons
17:54:10  <Smoovious> its not like the OTTD group are the ones making the GRF's as part of the project... the default ones come from TTDX, and the extra ones are all independent authors...
17:54:36  <peter1138> well
17:54:43  <peter1138> what do grfs have to do with it anyway?
17:54:57  <mikk36> i don't know, i didn't bring up the grf's
17:55:09  <Smoovious> now on the other hand, yeah, I'd like the ability to change the red stripe to a blue stripe or something like that, but other than that... it is still up to what the graphics in the GRF's allow
17:55:25  <mikk36> i just want an option to paint monorail and maglev wagons to different color than the engine
17:55:41  * Smoovious sighs.
17:56:21  <Smoovious> monorail and maglev sets are designed and built as a complete unit... it isn't like standard rail where a train is frequently broken up and reassembled all the time...
17:56:45  <mikk36> but it could be ordered a different color ?
17:57:05  <mikk36> it aint like: u must use red, there's no way we will give u blue
17:57:15  <Smoovious> it could be, if the GRF supports changing the color of the graphics
17:57:46  <mikk36> ?
17:58:10  <mikk36> the standard one's maglev passenger wagons take color from the color of maglev engine
17:58:13  <mikk36> atm
17:58:42  <Smoovious> you can set all of the color options you want in OTTD, but if the graphics in the GRF file, aren't made with some changeable colors according to your color settings, then you can't change the color
17:58:55  *** scia [~scia@AveloN.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
17:59:13  <mikk36> there's even no option
17:59:30  <mikk36> passenger coach (steam, diesel and electric)
17:59:48  <mikk36> but none for maglev and monorail
17:59:50  <Smoovious> that's standard rail... standard rail is different
18:00:14  <mikk36> there are no emus and dmus either in standard set
18:00:18  <Smoovious> cuz maglev and monorail trains, typically stay intact for the life of the train... so of course they're all going to be painted the same for the whole train... it is all one unit
18:00:22  <mikk36> none of that would change color at least
18:00:32  <mikk36> *react to changing the color
18:00:34  <peter1138> yeah, i need to set the flags for those
18:00:47  <mikk36> but still there's an option
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18:06:54  <Descyber> ah crap, new bridges isn't in miniin?
18:07:14  <glx> it isn't in 0.5.0 so it isn't in miniin
18:07:32  <Smoovious> well, there are lots of stuff in miniin that isn't in 0.5.0 :D
18:08:15  <Descyber> hehe
18:08:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> Descyber: i posted a patch for that on the forum
18:08:38  <Descyber> Eddi|zuHause2: got a link?
18:08:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> search function?
18:08:55  <Descyber> i'm lazy :D
18:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, and you expect me to be different?
18:09:08  <Smoovious> so are we
18:09:32  <Descyber> sorta..
18:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's not like i made more than 3 posts in the forum
18:09:52  <Descyber> gnaaa CO2 i can't hear that crap on the news anymore
18:10:09  <Smoovious> maybe time to get a hearing aid then?
18:10:14  <Descyber> :P
18:10:26  <Rubidium> didn't know you could hear CO2
18:10:36  <Smoovious> you can if it moves fast enough
18:10:51  <Descyber> well you can hear bainitic or martensic transformation in special steels..
18:10:52  <Rubidium> but can you distinguish it from some other gas?
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18:11:11  <Smoovious> depends on how flammable it is
18:11:27  <Descyber> Eddi|zuHause2: what's your nick on the forum?
18:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> CO2 is flammable? that's quite some news :)
18:11:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> err... "Eddi" i assume
18:11:39  <Smoovious> "some other gas"
18:11:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> you mean "other" like N2?
18:12:15  <Descyber> hehehe
18:12:15  <Smoovious> N2, O2, H, etc
18:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> (which makes up 79% of all gases on earth)
18:12:32  <Descyber> if N2 burnt we'd be in trouble :P
18:12:43  <Descyber> everytime someone lights a cigarette, poof
18:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> if N2 burned, we would not have that much N2 in the first place
18:13:25  <Smoovious> which makes it 'unlikely' on the 'how flammable' scale then
18:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, you should be glad that NO2 burns ;)
18:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> N2O i mean
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18:18:32  <nairan> brennt auch net
18:19:54  <Descyber> just burn old tyres.. be creative, create roadblocks with old tyres and light those up..
18:22:35  <mikk36> SwordFish, u got tired ? :P
18:23:31  <SwordFish> umm. of wP
18:23:34  <SwordFish> what*
18:24:17  <mikk36> hv
18:24:39  <SwordFish> nah, just trying to get my logitech momo racing wheel working
18:25:28  <SwordFish> i'll be there in 10 minutes?
18:26:01  *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@dD5E03DCF.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:32:02  <Smoovious> hv?
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18:33:23  <dihedral> hello
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18:35:08  <mikk36> Smoovious, hv- > hinnavaatlus -> an estonian site
18:36:54  <dihedral> what is the state of a server review page?
18:39:18  <Smoovious> mikk36... thnx
18:39:43  <SwordFish> mikk36: could you tell me your server addres? Find server buttons seems not to be doing everything.. Windows reinstall soon too..
18:40:11  <mikk36> order by name
18:40:26  <SwordFish> i dont get any servers at all.. i'll add it manualy
18:40:29  <mikk36> erm, ok
18:40:41  <mikk36> what is the default port ?
18:42:00  <mikk36> Smoovious ?
18:42:15  <SwordFish> nvm. got it already
18:42:21  <mikk36> ok :P
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18:45:40  <SpComb> hmm, a central/authorative-type authentication system for OpenTTD
18:51:23  <SpComb> http://tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=30817 <-- and couldn't such an AI be implemented as a network client? It would work on multiplayer games as well that way
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18:58:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Darkvater * r9055 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h stdafx.h video/win32_v.cpp win32.cpp win32.h): -Codechange: Change windows unicode handling and allow a pure non-unicode build to function. Win9x binaries will be possible with mingw/nightly system.
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19:01:56  *** MiHaMiX changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.5.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs [DOWN - UPGRADING])
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19:05:21  <SpComb> hmm, there's been one topic & implementation of it already
19:06:46  <hylje> :o
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19:08:47  * SpComb wonders if there's some aspect of it that could be done better
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19:40:45  <DJ-ProsiT> YAY
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19:42:05  <DJ-ProsiT> hmm i have a question.. is there a way to read p on how to make stuff for openttd?
19:42:47  <Rubidium> what do you mean with stuff?
19:43:14  <Rubidium> networks (as in game), graphics, code addition, translations?
19:43:20  <DJ-ProsiT> like make new stations. airports, busstations
19:43:31  <DJ-ProsiT> graphic + code i guess
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19:43:55  <Rubidium> for train stations you should use newgrf
19:44:02  <DJ-ProsiT> airports?
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19:44:07  <Rubidium> see the wiki of ttdpatch
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19:44:13  <DJ-ProsiT> ok
19:44:18  <DJ-ProsiT> wiki
19:44:23  <DJ-ProsiT> aah
19:44:24  <Rubidium> for airports and busstations you can only replace their sprites
19:44:29  <DJ-ProsiT> lol i get the topic ;P
19:44:32  <DJ-ProsiT> hmm
19:44:47  <DJ-ProsiT> what about the international and intercontinental, those arent normal
19:45:36  <Rubidium> true, you can add new airports directly into OTTD's code, but then you wouldn't be able to play that with 'random' other people unless you distribute the code changes
19:45:49  <Rubidium> which is usually more difficult than distributing a newgrf
19:46:29  <DJ-ProsiT> yeh isee
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19:46:32  <DJ-ProsiT> hehe
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19:46:45  <DJ-ProsiT> too bad about there isnt a newgrf thing for airport
19:46:46  <Rubidium> and airports are much trickier to code because they are one big finite state machine
19:46:53  <DJ-ProsiT> yeh
19:46:56  <DJ-ProsiT> i see
19:47:26  <SpComb> so whatever happaned to that central authentication system that someone wrote? Noone just ever used it?
19:47:59  <Rubidium> SpComb: wrote a proposal for
19:48:12  <SpComb> that one guy wrote an implementation for it as well
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19:49:13  <Rubidium> I've never seen it, so it must be bitrotting for quite some time
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19:50:26  <SpComb> it was 2005 or so
19:51:35  <SpComb> http://tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=14684
19:53:40  <Rubidium> I really wonder what such a system should accomplish
19:54:25  <SpComb> well, provided that the signup process was difficult to automate and such, then it would primarily provide an easy to ban players
19:54:26  <Rubidium> because by default rejecting everybody is not good
19:54:51  <Rubidium> and banning players with it is useless too, because you can just sign up again
19:54:52  <hylje> its up to the server hoster
19:54:59  <SpComb> but then you could also do things like stats for players
19:55:11  <SpComb> "what servers are my friends playing right now?"
19:55:17  <DJ-ProsiT> Rubidium thanks alot.. ill be reading my arse off ;P
19:55:29  <SpComb> Rubidium: as I said, provided that the signup process was difficult to automate
19:55:37  <DJ-ProsiT> so if my server is hosting a game, can i add live newgrf? somehow?
19:55:57  <Rubidium> DJ-ProsiT: not while it is actually running
19:56:00  <SpComb> it could also serve to replace company passwords
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19:56:10  <SpComb> "this is the list of people allowed to control this company"
19:56:21  <SpComb> server passwords as well
19:56:33  <hylje> "only friends of host can join"
19:56:37  <SpComb> you just give it an ACL and you don't have to trust everyone to keep the password secret
19:56:57  <SpComb> if you use it to keep track of a player's reputation then you can require a certian level of karma to play or something
19:57:06  <SpComb> although that could get silly quickly if everyone required it
19:57:09  <Rubidium> but if Brianetta (for example) is going to do that on his servers, no new players can join him
19:57:19  <Smoovious>  <mikk36> Smoovious ? <--- ya?
19:57:29  <SpComb> banning is not the only use for it
19:57:42  <Rubidium> for OpenTTDCoop it might be nice, but for most of the public servers it is useless
19:57:47  <SpComb> and it may be possible to somehow give an incentive for players to use it, I don't know
19:57:57  <SpComb> well, depends on how you implement it
19:58:14  <hylje> we could still have anonymous users
19:58:34  <Rubidium> any way you implement it, the lame people trashing whole maps issue will not be solved
19:58:54  <SpComb> it would also be possible to tie it into the tt-forums user database like e.g. grfcrawler does
19:58:58  <Rubidium> because they can just request a new 'user id' and join to another server
19:59:14  <SpComb> you have to come up with some way to stop that from being effective
19:59:17  <Smoovious> maybe it would help for rating players too... so say if a server wants to run an expert-only game, then only people who have won X games can join or something
19:59:18  <SpComb> dunno how myself
19:59:20  <Rubidium> *and join with the other 'user id'
19:59:20  <Noldo> I wonder if ident could be used for what SpComb is proposing
19:59:32  <SpComb> ident in terms of the ident protocol? No
19:59:37  <Rubidium> Smoovious: that rating can be forged easily
19:59:41  <DJ-ProsiT> why is TT so addicting lol
19:59:46  <SpComb> that's not what ident is for, and using it like that is what causes people to think it's pointless
19:59:46  <hylje> its very much a ident system with a central trusted server
19:59:49  <Smoovious> Rubidium... anything can be forged, not the point
20:00:03  <SpComb> the only identd server a person can trust is one that he runs himself
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20:00:44  <Smoovious> the vast majority of players wouldn't bother forging to begin with...
20:00:46  <hylje> i believe the official openttd identification server would be trusted in the context of ottd servers
20:00:59  <SpComb> it would probably work along the lines of the client getting a token from the login server for a specific game server, passing that token to the game server, which then passes it back to the login server to get info on the player
20:01:15  <Smoovious> and the few that do, you can easily figure out if their level of play matches their listed skill level...
20:01:16  <Rubidium> Smoovious: but the people who want to destruct other peoples game do
20:01:24  <SpComb> I think Noldo was talking about identd/the ident protocol, which is quite different and entirely not appropriate for this
20:01:49  <Smoovious> Rubidium... any method that is made can be sidestepped... it isn't reason enough to just not do it at all
20:02:48  <Rubidium> implementing a system with the main idea to stop malicious users to connect to the server should not be implemented in such a way that it is easily sidestepped
20:03:13  <Rubidium> because the people who want to do damage will not hesitate to spend a few minutes to sidestep the system
20:03:29  *** ammler_ is now known as ammler
20:03:30  <Smoovious> no it shouldn't... but as long as such a system is being implemented anyways, why not set it up in such a way that it has more uses than just what is basically, a blacklist?
20:04:25  <Smoovious> why couldn't it serve both functions
20:05:33  <SpComb> you have to find some way to make it cumbersome enough for prospective vandals that they can't be arsed doing it more than a couple times
20:05:43  <Sacro|Laptop> yup
20:05:47  * Smoovious nods.
20:05:55  <SpComb> ideally it wouldn't fall down in the face of a determined attacker either
20:06:32  <SpComb> and then there's the positive-features side of it, like stats, player tracking, etc
20:06:51  <Smoovious> that's what I'm talking about, SpComb
20:07:11  <Smoovious> they should both be able to go hand-in-hand
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20:08:40  <SpComb> so there's the abuse-prevention aspect (blacklist), the authorization (whitelist), and the tracking (stats) side of it
20:08:46  <Smoovious> and for stats tracking, both the server, and the client should submit their win... and it'll only count if they both match
20:09:13  <SpComb> dunno about that, you can't trust the server OR the client there, really
20:09:47  <Smoovious> well, then there's no point in keeping stats if you aren't gonna trust either of them... who else are you going to get stats from?
20:10:05  <SpComb> and there's nothing stopping someone from setting up a couple servers and a couple clients that all fake stats for eachother
20:10:07  <Rubidium> what use have forged stats?
20:10:18  <SpComb> dunno, I'm not particularly concerned about that aspect now
20:10:46  <SpComb> the what-server-is-this-player-playing-on-now aspect is simpler to implement and quite useful as of itself
20:10:48  <Rubidium> ooh, only the best 10 players may play on this server, well... lets make myself one of the best 10 players
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20:10:55  <Smoovious> SpComb... nope... but if someone sees something hinky going on, well, then that earns a ban... and should be set manually... no program that is come up with, is going tobe able to detect everything
20:11:02  <Smoovious> there's always going to be a loophole
20:11:02  <Rubidium> and secondly, how do you rate the quality of players?
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20:11:32  <Rubidium> but something hinky doesn't mean something malicious is going on
20:11:44  <Smoovious> Rubidium... I would say only rate based on what place they're in when the end-game date comes along
20:12:03  <Smoovious> there's so many map variations... trying to account for them all is going to be a losing battle
20:12:19  <Rubidium> so you can better play on a map with 'losers' than become second on a map with the top 10 players
20:12:28  <Smoovious> now if a player won, say, 8 games in 2 days, that'd be a good sign that they're cheating their stats...
20:12:39  <Smoovious> they'll even out in time
20:12:47  <Smoovious> law of averages
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20:13:53  <Smoovious> it is possible to make the ratings so overly complicated that it'll just suck...
20:14:37  <Smoovious> use the performance rating as part of the stat too if you want to
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20:25:43  <dihedral> is the random seed alwyas 10 digits?
20:26:07  <SpComb> more likely to have a certain number of bits (probably 32)
20:26:25  <dihedral> well - from a regex point of view :-)
20:27:36  <dihedral> i output some data to a file every month and to be able to defrenciate from data related to another game - the seed would be an amazing link as this will be different for each new game - right?
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20:28:30  <dihedral> or is there a small chance for the random seed to appear more than once?
20:29:17  <SpComb> over the course of 2^32+1 games, there is no way it could not
20:29:30  <SpComb> assuming it's 32 bits (unsigned)
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20:30:18  <SpComb> so if you play around four billion games you are garunteed to get at least one seed at least twice
20:31:31  <dihedral> so the chances are low - but it could be possible to happen in a course of 2 weeks?
20:33:28  <dihedral> anything i can count on to be unique per game?
20:36:28  <SpComb> the timestamp?
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20:37:49  <dihedral> ah - yeah - let me explain - from the dedicated server console :-)
20:38:11  <dihedral> something unique to the game, bad constant during the game?
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20:41:34  <HMage`> ???????? - "???????? ???????", ????? - "???????? ???????".
20:41:40  <HMage`> erp, wrong window
20:43:28  <Sacro|Laptop> HMage`: and wrong language
20:43:40  <HMage`> that's because wrong window
20:43:44  <Sacro|Laptop> :)
20:43:58  <HMage`> so there's only one cause of this, not two
20:45:06  <SpComb> how does the master server prune old servers from the list?
20:45:25  <SpComb> does the advertised server maintain a connection to the master server while it is up?
20:46:05  <HMage`> SpComb: if the server doesn't send a heartbeat to master for more than nnn seconds, it's pruned
20:46:14  <SpComb> udp?
20:46:30  <HMage`> dunno, but that's how masterservers are done for almost all games
20:47:28  <SpComb> I was thinking that you could combine the master listing server and the login server into one
20:48:18  <SpComb> and then also wondering what interesting things you could also add to this combo
20:48:37  <SpComb> hrhr replicated master servers
20:48:49  <HMage`> usually if there's need to auth someone there are separate auth servers, that's safer that way.
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21:00:19  <dihedral> what exactly is the goal of the login server?
21:00:39  <dihedral> i mean - what do you want to 'solve' with adding an auth server to the game?
21:01:20  <SpComb> there's three aspects that I have in mind
21:01:32  <SpComb> whitelist, blacklist, and stats/tracking/whateveryouwanttocallit
21:02:10  <SpComb> sticking the master server and the login server into one would probably open up other interesting possibilities that I haven't thought of so far
21:02:34  <dihedral> but white and blacklisting would only work if people were only able to obtain ONE set of login details
21:02:51  <Rubidium> the masterserver and login server will never be the same executable
21:02:55  <SpComb> whitelisting doesn't have that issue, with blacklisting it is an issue
21:03:13  <SpComb> whitelisting == these players are allowed to join this server/manage this company
21:03:25  <dihedral> just a thought
21:03:34  <dihedral> an id that is unique to a computer
21:03:51  <Rubidium> the masterserver only sets servers online/offline (or server request), there is a separate process that gets the game information from the servers and makes them offline when the server doesn't react
21:03:57  <Nigel> SpComb: there are ways around that
21:03:57  <SpComb> and how do you garuntee that what you send over the network is said unique id?
21:04:12  <SpComb> Nigel: what do you mean exactly?
21:04:26  <dihedral> eg the processor serial number :-)
21:04:32  <dihedral> or the pci bus id
21:04:40  <Nigel> not foolproof, but it would help somewhat
21:04:51  <SpComb> what's to stop someone from modifying openttd to send some arbitrary number instead?
21:04:52  <dihedral> using those details as the client-id?
21:05:06  <Nigel> SpComb: thats why I said not foolproof
21:05:13  <SpComb> the idea is that there is a central authority that people trust
21:05:28  <dihedral> well - you need a handshake in which data is transmitted and the way of encrypting the id
21:05:30  <SpComb> and it then provides some garuntees to servers about who a client is
21:05:55  <dihedral> 1. client wants to join
21:06:11  <dihedral> 2. server sends salt and encryption style
21:06:19  <dihedral> ah....
21:06:22  <dihedral> ;-P
21:06:25  <SpComb> 3. client replies with arbitrary number
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21:06:46  <dihedral> isbn's have a way of calculating calidity
21:06:54  <dihedral> *validity
21:07:02  <dihedral> i am confident these id's will too
21:07:14  <Nigel> but honestly, would people *really* miss blacklisting
21:07:29  <SpComb> blacklisting is just one part of the login server plan
21:07:33  <Rubidium> dihedral: isbn validity is simple and easily spoofable
21:07:40  <dihedral> well - you could list blacklisted clients publicly for other admins
21:07:48  <Nigel> also, if someone is really intent on getting around a blacklisting, no matter how advanced the bl technology is, they are going to find a way
21:07:51  <dihedral> true - but processor id's
21:08:02  <dihedral> pci bus id's
21:08:09  <Rubidium> dihedral: and the blacklister gets another ID at the server...
21:08:17  <Rubidium> the authorisation server that is
21:08:21  <SpComb> the issue with blacklisting is you have to find something that makes it undesireable for vandals
21:08:51  <dihedral> and hackers (crackers)
21:08:57  <SpComb> it has to be very simple for honest users, but enough trouble to not be worth it for vandals
21:09:09  <dihedral> na
21:09:19  <dihedral> if you do that you will be surprised one day
21:09:24  <Nigel> haha
21:09:28  * Nigel just had an idea
21:09:33  <Rubidium> dihedral: and everything the client sends can be spoofed very easily
21:09:36  <dihedral> do something more secure than that
21:09:39  <Nigel> use a CACert-style WoT
21:09:48  <SpComb> WoT?
21:09:53  <Nigel> or even implement CACert certificates
21:09:53  <Rubidium> so PCI bus id are really useless
21:09:59  <Nigel> WoT = Web or Trust
21:10:02  <Nigel> *of
21:10:09  <SpComb> you could make people pay for registration...
21:10:11  <SpComb> :P
21:10:20  <Nigel> CACert is free
21:10:23  <dihedral> data could generally ssl?
21:10:26  <SpComb> Nigel: details, not just acronym expansions
21:10:31  <dihedral> *be
21:10:34  <dihedral> *ssl'ed
21:10:55  <dihedral> all data encrypted?
21:10:58  <dihedral> not a good idea
21:11:25  <SpComb> this problem may have been solved in PKI systems though, I'll read up on those now
21:11:27  <dihedral> the dedicated server would constantly have to communicate with the auth server to get the actual unencrypted data back
21:11:48  <Nigel> CACert is a free personal (and webserver) certificate provider, which relies on a Web of Trust etc etc etc, if the login process required the use of a SSL certificate that had be verified, then that makes it harder for vandals
21:12:02  <Nigel> CACert is at http://www.cacert.org
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21:12:19  <dihedral> yeah but it is not easy to get one in the first place :-)
21:12:41  <dihedral> but you do not need a publicly trusted ca
21:13:05  <dihedral> you need a ca (self signed) by openttd.org and a fingerprint listed on the website
21:13:17  <dihedral> which is not too hard to do
21:13:21  <Nigel> then your back to square one
21:13:21  <dihedral> in fact not hard at all
21:13:32  <Rubidium> but how do you create user certificates?
21:13:40  <Sacro|Laptop> because its GPL software, anything you code in can for security can be overwritten
21:13:49  <Nigel> also, you can get an unverified certificate from the likes of CACert etc
21:14:09  <dihedral> dedicated server starts
21:14:13  <dihedral> in ssl mode
21:14:19  <dihedral> talkes to auth server
21:14:37  <dihedral> auth server send back a string (key signed for the current game)
21:15:00  <dihedral> that could be enough to encrypt data between clients and server
21:15:19  <dihedral> no further communication (regarding a cert) from dedicated to auth server
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21:15:29  <dihedral> na
21:15:32  <dihedral> not good :-D
21:15:34  <Rubidium> dihedral: the problem isn't the data send between the clients and the server it is whether you can trust the user/client is actually who he says he is
21:16:01  <Nigel> thats why i'm saying use a current certificate authority like CACert
21:16:37  <Nigel> the free Web of Trust authorities have a global spread these days
21:16:40  <Rubidium> how would that help with respect of the trustability of a client?
21:16:47  <dihedral> what will stop users from getting a new cert?
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21:16:52  <SpComb> Sacro|Laptop: which means that you have to develop something truly secure, and not just rely on some obfuscated protections ;)
21:16:55  <dihedral> ha - little slow there
21:17:06  <dihedral> aye
21:17:17  <dihedral> but getting there is the fun part :-)
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21:17:31  <Nigel> Rubidium: because when someone goes through Web of Trust, there name is basically engraved on the certificate
21:17:37  <Sacro|Laptop> SpComb: indeed... makes it more challenging at least
21:17:37  <dihedral> + being happy with an "ok for now" solution will not work
21:18:00  <SpComb> the way this WoT could apply to here is having exisitng players endorse new players and thence building up their karma in some way
21:18:00  <dihedral> will not be good enough
21:18:07  <dihedral> too many people were happy with that kind of stuff
21:18:10  <Rubidium> Nigel: and how easy is it for me to get a second certificate with another name?
21:18:14  <Nigel> also, the CAs only allow 1 certificate per email at a time
21:18:16  * SpComb wonders if a karma system would be a good idea
21:18:31  <Nigel> Rubidium: read up on Web of Trust, it's very hard
21:18:37  <dihedral> let me give an example:
21:18:41  <dihedral> terrorists
21:18:45  <SpComb> there's plenty of issues with one of those as well
21:18:46  <Nigel> http://www.cacert.org has some good documentation
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21:18:54  <dihedral> they always appear friendly and harmless to their surroundings
21:19:05  <dihedral> it is in the last second the something happens
21:19:16  <dihedral> you want to stop that from happening in the first place
21:19:30  <Nigel> its not a case "oh yeah, this guy is trustworthy" it's a case of "this guy is Joe Blogs, just like his drivers license says he is"
21:19:43  <SpComb> what WoT essentially is is that users trust some other users that they know in real life, and if those users trust some key, then you trust said key as well
21:19:45  <dihedral> ok
21:20:04  <dihedral> but you do not want the real name, nor the emal address
21:20:07  <Nigel> SpComb: thats more PGP
21:20:23  <Rubidium> SpComb: and what stops a group of say 3 people to become evil and sign eachothers new certificates?
21:20:31  <dihedral> true
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21:21:00  <Nigel> Rubidium: you have to already be in the WoT to sign certificates
21:21:16  <Rubidium> that's why I said become evil
21:21:22  <dihedral> certificates can be 'purchased' by donation
21:21:30  <Rubidium> they are in the WoT
21:21:36  <dihedral> dedicated servers can choos to only allow users with certificates
21:21:59  <dihedral> /yr
21:22:15  <dihedral> no 'test'certs
21:22:35  <dihedral> or an option to allow clients with test certs or not
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21:23:08  <Smoovious> you can get a digital signature for your email from Thawte for free... I've used one for years
21:23:19  <Nigel> Smoovious: exactly
21:23:23  <Smoovious> dunno if there are others that are free or not
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21:23:40  <Nigel> i was using CACert because they are more behind the free philosophy
21:23:54  <Smoovious> tho if I want my real name on it, that'll cost me and I need to authenticate it, but just for the email addy, no charge
21:23:57  <dihedral> but that would mean you were depending on thwarte to provide free email certs
21:24:02  <Nigel> errr using CACert as an example
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21:24:09  <Nigel> Smoovious: no, Thawte WoT is free
21:24:34  <dihedral> *thawte
21:25:12  <lopmr> hi.i am trying to install openttd on my ubuntu system.i have installed the .deb and copied the *.grf's and sample.cat.but when i open openttd i get messages like "Your 'nsignalsw.grf' file is corrupted or missing!" can somebody help?
21:25:26  <Smoovious> WoT?
21:25:37  <Nigel> Web of Trust
21:26:04  <dihedral> make sure you are using lowercase filenames
21:26:05  <Smoovious> ahh, I haven't needed a web-cert yet... so couldn't speak on that specifically... just saying Thawte did have some free ones. :)
21:26:16  <dihedral> make sure they are in /usr/share/games/openttd/data
21:27:18  <lopmr> in my data dir are these file: "sample.cat  trg1r.grf  trgcr.grf  trghr.grf  trgir.grf  trgtr.grf"
21:28:01  <Smoovious> you need a nsignalsw.grf file
21:28:11  <Sacro|Laptop> indeed...
21:28:18  <Sacro|Laptop> as well as things like openttd.grf
21:28:23  <dihedral> as the message tells you :-)
21:29:11  <Rubidium> the installer should have installed those files into the correct directory
21:29:20  <dihedral> you can use the tar.gz or the windows zip and take the files out of there
21:29:27  <dihedral> they are installed in the right dir
21:29:32  <dihedral> i used the same deb
21:29:47  <dihedral> with the diff of me running on debian etch
21:29:48  <Rubidium> blathijs: do you have any idea why the debian installer does not install the grfs under Ubuntu?
21:30:06  <dihedral> i had that issue with my first install
21:30:19  <dihedral> make sure you have enough permissions to read those files
21:30:25  <dihedral> you installed as root
21:30:32  <dihedral> you are playing not as root i hope :-)
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21:32:01  <lopmr> i have found the files.the game is working :) great.thanks guys :) it looks like rollercoaster tycoon :)
21:32:11  <dihedral> how about shipping openttd with a closed source file?
21:32:53  <Rubidium> lopmr: not strange, TTD is the ancestor of Rollercoaster Tycoon
21:33:20  <Rubidium> dihedral: won't happen... something with GPL
21:33:33  <dihedral> you still need the grf files right?
21:33:33  <Nigel> Rubidium: because a .deb for Debian is not always totally compatible with ubuntu
21:34:12  <dihedral> you could be dependant on a closed source file and release that under a diff license
21:34:13  <Nigel> anyway, work to do, i'm out
21:34:17  <Rubidium> Nigel: but copying some files shouldn't be a problem imho; it could copy the openttd binary itself, but not the data files <- that is weird
21:34:39  <Nigel> Rubidium: it's possible
21:34:42  <dihedral> you dont know for shure that was the case
21:35:02  <dihedral> if you aint have read perms for those files and do an ls they will not show up
21:35:11  <lopmr> Rubidium: does Rollercoaster Tycoon also run on linux?
21:35:37  <Rubidium> lopmr: maybe in wine
21:35:43  <dihedral> hehe
21:36:13  <dihedral> getting back to a closed source file
21:36:28  <dihedral> i have seen a few apps released under gpl
21:36:37  <dihedral> but still reliant on a commercial product
21:38:37  <Smoovious> but the commercial product isn't distributed with it... and they aren't integrated...
21:38:54  <dihedral> it could be a seperate download
21:39:13  <Smoovious> if the commercial product, depends on the gpl software to function, that's a problem...
21:39:41  <dihedral> no it is not
21:40:04  <dihedral> the commercial product does not have to be dependant on it - it could be a security api
21:40:23  <dihedral> fixed function you need to call in a certain order :-)
21:40:26  <Smoovious> the API would be stand-alone tho
21:40:46  <dihedral> nope
21:40:56  <dihedral> would require the game to transmit the data
21:41:06  <Smoovious> actually, go google Novell Microsoft GPL and you should find a bunch of articles about that very question right now
21:41:07  <dihedral> but that data can be encrypted
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21:41:31  <Rubidium> dihedral: and you think that that blackbox won't be cracked within a few minutes?
21:41:50  <dihedral> no
21:42:23  <dihedral> as long as nobody pays for backwards engerneering
21:42:29  <Rubidium> he, look, this blackbox gets the PCI bus ID, lets write my own one
21:42:58  <dihedral> how do you want to know what exactly it gets and transmitts?
21:43:10  <Smoovious> sniffing
21:43:16  <dihedral> encryption
21:43:24  <dihedral> sniff as much as you like
21:43:41  <Smoovious> all encryption will do is add a layer of difficulty
21:43:54  <dihedral> kinda
21:44:00  <Smoovious> no kinda... exactly
21:44:02  <dihedral> bb has 2 ends
21:44:05  <dihedral> client and server
21:44:11  <Smoovious> and?
21:44:21  <dihedral> (and i might realize a little issue in a jiffy but let me think)
21:44:23  <Smoovious> no point in encrypting something if there isn't a destination to decrypt it
21:44:34  <dihedral> just said - 2 ends
21:44:37  <dihedral> server client
21:44:49  <Smoovious> every encryption path has 2 ends
21:44:52  <Smoovious> it is a given
21:44:59  <dihedral> aye
21:45:06  <Sacro|Laptop> why not use openssh with keys?
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21:45:17  <dihedral> but the client does not need to be able to decrypt what it encrypts
21:45:32  <dihedral> it needs to be able to decrypt what the server encrypts
21:45:34  <Smoovious> ...
21:45:40  <Smoovious> and?
21:46:08  <dihedral> in a handshake (also encrypted) a random salt is transfered
21:46:22  <Smoovious> which is transferred in clear
21:46:34  <dihedral> just said - encrypted
21:46:40  <Smoovious> I know
21:46:50  <dihedral> that does not make it clear does it now
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21:47:15  <Smoovious> you have to start the handshake in clear or what encryption key are you going to use?
21:47:38  <Smoovious> and if you start encrypted to begin with, what's the point of handshaking encryption when you're already encrypted?
21:47:47  <dihedral> https for example - handshake aint clear text
21:47:53  <DaleStan> Server sends its public key. Client encrypts using server's public key, and then only server can decrypt.
21:48:03  <Smoovious> right
21:48:10  <Smoovious> (that was to DaleStan)
21:48:14  <dihedral> anyhow - it's an idea
21:48:15  <Smoovious> the public key, is sent in clear
21:48:26  <dihedral> you can have that hardcoded
21:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> am i the only person getting headaches when reading this?
21:48:52  <DaleStan> At this point, client -> server communication is secure, so client can send a symmetric key, or that can also be a pub/priv pair.
21:49:07  <Smoovious> think DeCSS when it comes to hardcoding a key
21:49:17  <Sacro|Laptop> DaleStan: using OpenSSL?
21:49:31  <dihedral> Smoovious: if you think it is so easy to crack keys - tell me why it is not so easy to crack wpa?
21:49:45  <Smoovious> I didn't claim it was easy...
21:49:52  <Smoovious> I said it adds another layer of difficulty
21:50:09  <dihedral> nothing you do will be anything else
21:50:20  <Sacro|Laptop> how about we try wrappign openssl around the networking code
21:50:29  <Smoovious> keys can be broken however... it simply takes time
21:50:30  <Rubidium> seems that a large part of the people in this debate do not understand that the client-server connection is not the problem, but the trust the server has in the validity of the identify of the client
21:51:00  * Smoovious nods to Rubidium
21:51:23  <dihedral> well - i am off to bed
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21:52:10  <dihedral> i shall do some reading up on stuff and some more thinking in depth..,. to give you guys some more headache :-D
21:52:14  <dihedral> good night guys
21:52:15  <DaleStan> Oh. Then I'm discussing the wrong thing. Proof that the client is the same person/computer as last time is possible, but proof of not-the-same is not possible.
21:52:23  <Sacro|Laptop> Smoovious: then revoke/reissue
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21:53:04  * Smoovious nods.
21:53:35  <Smoovious> DaleStan... can put together a string based on hardware detection like windows and ┬ÁT do
21:53:58  <Smoovious> it wouldn't uniquely identify everyone, but it is a start
21:54:39  <Rubidium> Smoovious: can you make it work on Amiga/MorphOS/PSP?
21:54:44  <Sacro|Laptop> Smoovious: no you cant
21:54:54  <Smoovious> Rubidium... nope... I haven't used any of those
21:54:57  <Sacro|Laptop> it can be randomly generated on loading without much effort
21:55:27  <DaleStan> Indeed. Not possible for an open source program. It's too easy to replace the black box that does hardware detection with one that does something else.
21:55:34  <Smoovious> hey... any single method that can be dreamed up, can be faked...
21:56:01  <Smoovious> if a fool-proof system is what is being looked for, it doesn't exist, it never will exist, so why bother
21:56:36  <Belugas> night all.
21:56:37  <Rubidium> too bad there isn't a global DigiD or so :)
21:56:51  * Smoovious gasps.
21:57:04  * Smoovious makes frantic warding gestures at Rubidium
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21:58:27  *** MiHaMiX changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.5.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs)
21:58:42  <MiHaMiX> upgrade to FS 0.9.9 postponed
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22:01:30  <Smoovious> how come?
22:02:35  <Naksu> FS?
22:02:44  <Rubidium> Smoovious: failing queries in the upgrade process, starting with the first
22:02:48  <Rubidium> FlySpray
22:03:07  <Smoovious> bummer
22:09:16  <DJ-ProsiT> hmm can anyone tell me how dedicated behaves, and if i an use dediated WITH newgrf?
22:12:25  <Rubidium> basically the same as the non-dedicated server, but without the GUI
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22:13:11  <Rubidium> you can use newgrfs by adding them to [newgrf] in openttd.cfg when starting a new game. When starting a scenario or loading a game it uses the newgrfs as saved in the scenario/savegame.
22:14:10  <DJ-ProsiT> hmm so basically using dedicated is basically creating a map like in normal also?
22:14:22  <mikk36> Smoovious, don't u read any lines before your highlight ?
22:15:07  <Rubidium> DJ-ProsiT: unless you start it with an extra "-g <savegame/scenario>" parameter
22:15:31  <Rubidium> but yes, it behaves like the normal server
22:15:51  <DJ-ProsiT> hmm oil_refinery_limit = 16 means?
22:15:58  <DJ-ProsiT> its hard to even build one
22:16:13  <Rubidium> that oil refineries need to be within 16 tiles from the edge
22:16:36  <DJ-ProsiT> aaah
22:16:49  <DJ-ProsiT> why cant i place it on open places?
22:17:02  <DJ-ProsiT> says that its not valid or something
22:17:15  <DJ-ProsiT> i had to generate a VERY expencive island with it on ;P
22:18:18  <DJ-ProsiT> doesn it ahve to be far away from towns? and stuff...
22:23:45  <DJ-ProsiT> hmm what is Sample.cat doing in my data folder?
22:24:13  <valhalla1w> having samples to play? ;)
22:25:21  <Smoovious> <mikk36> Smoovious, don't u read any lines before your highlight ? <--- sometimes, sometimes not
22:25:26  <DJ-ProsiT> hehe
22:25:30  <DJ-ProsiT> is it the game that creates it?
22:26:04  <Rubidium> no, it was you who copied it to there (or your installer did)
22:26:14  <Smoovious> if someone says just my nick, usually not... if someone includes my nick in a full line of text as part of a conversation, usually
22:27:12  <mikk36> well, the question was just above ur highlight
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22:27:26  <Smoovious> ahh... >scrolls way back<
22:27:51  <Smoovious> 2007-03-07 13:40:14 UPC-5 | <mikk36> what is the default port ? <--- I don't know, check the wiki
22:28:02  <mikk36> doesn't matter any more anyway
22:28:06  <mikk36> :P
22:28:08  <Smoovious> :D
22:29:07  <DJ-ProsiT> probably installer them
22:29:09  <DJ-ProsiT> then
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22:36:51  <Brianetta> SpComb: Email admin to create account on server - just a thought.
22:36:55  <Brianetta> Hello, btw
22:38:28  *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:38:30  <SpComb> Brianetta: more like email admin to add your account to the server's whitelist
22:39:05  <SpComb> the idea is specifically to form a global authentication/identitity server, not just for blacklisting
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22:45:12  <Brianetta> SpComb: In which case, rather than a central auth service, use public keys
22:45:12  <Brianetta> Keys must be signed by the server's admin before they can play
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22:51:39  <SpComb> I was considering some PKI-style thing, but that doesn't e.g. let the central server know what server some player is playing on, for instance
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