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Log for #openttd on 2nd May 2007:
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00:00:02  <mikk36> no 3dsmax nor games for *nix :)
00:00:36  <mikk36> otherwise i'd be in *nix...
00:00:41  <TheJosh> sorry I cant help much then. I guess you would get the latest from svn, apply my patch (i dont know of a windows tool that can do this, but they probably exist) and then compile (visual c++ ??)
00:00:41  <mikk36> propably using gentoo :P
00:01:17  <mikk36> well, i aint going to try it out :)
00:01:31  <TheJosh> im on debian 4.0 (sarge) at the moment, and i have a gentoo machine as well and a slackware server (and another slackware server at my church)
00:03:28  <mikk36> :)
00:04:07  <TheJosh> gotta love remote access. im working on the slackware server at my church right as we speak
00:04:11  <mikk36> i have my xp, then server 2003 on a serverhost (server-housing)
00:04:24  <TheJosh> and worrying because my gentoo box has just had a harddrive failure
00:04:31  <mikk36> hehe
00:04:44  <mikk36> i had one failure too about a week ago :P
00:04:50  <mikk36> or rather 1.5
00:04:52  <Tefad> . . .
00:05:02  <mikk36> mechanics gave up
00:05:16  <mikk36> about a month and a half after buying it
00:05:27  <Tefad> i'm remote accessing my server right now, to IRC from.
00:05:35  <Tefad> it, however, is also under my desk
00:05:43  <TheJosh> i think its hdd failure. disks are old (2x 4gig) and now it cant read the reiser partition
00:05:55  <Tefad> but i can access it from anywhere, which is convenient
00:05:56  <mikk36> lost almost 150 gigs of movies, series and cd/dvd images :P
00:06:03  <TheJosh> gee
00:06:15  <TheJosh> i need some not 6 year old disks
00:06:20  <mikk36> heh
00:06:21  <mikk36> erm
00:06:29  <mikk36> hmm
00:06:30  <Tefad> i refuse to use maxtor for a while
00:06:30  <TheJosh> oh well, ill put them on the 'to shoot' pile
00:06:35  <mikk36> lemme check it's manufacturing time
00:06:51  <mikk36> 5 Apr 95 :)
00:06:56  <mikk36> still working nicely
00:07:02  <Tefad> heh, i have some disks like that
00:07:07  <mikk36> WD Caviar 1425
00:07:15  <mikk36> 426.8MB xD
00:07:15  <Tefad> i think most of my machine's root FS is one some tiny disk
00:07:34  <Tefad> machines' root FSs. meh
00:07:35  <mikk36> the only reason i don't use it in my router is that it's loud as hell
00:07:55  <Tefad> so spin it down after bootup?
00:07:57  <TheJosh> disk didnt fail
00:08:10  <mikk36> Tefad, no can do
00:08:18  <TheJosh> power cord had come partially out, reiser is now self-repairing (i love reiser)
00:08:20  <mikk36> pfsense writes data constantly to hdd
00:08:27  <Tefad> what is your router doing?.. blah
00:08:39  <Tefad> make it write to ramdisk and sync once per day or something
00:08:55  <mikk36> m0n0wall can stop it, because it doesn't log etc...
00:09:01  <Tefad> or hell, usb flash drives are cheap enough
00:09:04  <mikk36> but then again, i like when stuff gets logged
00:09:08  <mikk36> latency, speed etc data
00:09:21  <mikk36> up to 1 year back or so
00:09:24  <Digitalfox[Home]> mikk36: I know what is to lost a hdd that you use for data, like movies, music, games, tv-series, documents, etc.. I lost a 160x2 RAID-0 = 320GB of data 2 years ago... Or on other words i lost everything i was collecting for 6 years
00:09:25  <mikk36> on graphics
00:09:34  <Tefad> i think 1GB flashdisk is US pretty much anywhere
00:09:49  <mikk36> Digitalfox[Home], that drive was in raid0 :)
00:09:56  <Tefad> Digitalfox[Home]: RAID-0 is a bad idea.
00:09:56  <mikk36> 200+200GB
00:10:23  <mikk36> but it unpacked and copied data fast as hell :P
00:10:33  <Tefad> 0+1 FTW.
00:10:41  <mikk36> true :)
00:10:55  *** KUDr_ [KUDr@mazanec1.netbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:11:01  <mikk36> luckily i've restored most of the data i lost
00:11:01  <Tefad> or 5
00:11:04  <mikk36> from friends etc
00:11:18  <Tefad> 5 sucks for writing little pieces all over the place though (eg fast torrents)
00:11:21  <Digitalfox[Home]> Raid = 0 is not a bad idea, the problem was a hardware failure of the 2 disks... I received 2 new discs for that problem from + seagate also send me another 2 other discs has compensation.. So i lost the data and receive 4 new disks
00:11:48  <Tefad> RAID 0  goes down with a single failure.
00:11:54  <mikk36> yup
00:12:09  <Tefad> it doesn't matter if both failed or not..
00:12:14  <TheJosh> the trick to raid 0 is good disks. disks are good for about 2 years
00:12:16  <Digitalfox[Home]> Tefad: Yes, but it was in my case the 2 disks that failed..
00:12:27  <Tefad> positive both failed and not just one?
00:12:31  <Digitalfox[Home]> yes
00:12:33  <mikk36> heh
00:12:34  <Tefad> the FS gets corrupted if either die
00:12:37  <mikk36> lucky one :P
00:12:48  <TheJosh> you can do just about anthing with a disk in the first 2 years
00:12:56  <Digitalfox[Home]> well i did win 4 new 200 GB disks from segate..
00:13:07  <Tefad> heh
00:13:10  <TheJosh> any serious web/serving company ditches there disks every 2 years
00:13:26  <Tefad> if they're using craptastic IDE, then yes
00:13:35  <mikk36> well, if a disk last, it will last long
00:13:37  <Tefad> quite a few SCSI disks have a giant MTBF
00:13:41  <mikk36> if a disk lasts*
00:13:51  <TheJosh> good point
00:14:21  <mikk36> if it's a bad one, it will fail quickly under big loads for long times
00:14:22  <Tefad> also RAID 5 or 6 with reserve disks are extremely reliable
00:14:23  <TheJosh> when i get a new server im going to get probably 4 sata 320gig disks
00:14:38  <mikk36> still 320 ?
00:14:54  <TheJosh> 320 has about the best price per gig at the moment
00:15:15  <mikk36> hmm
00:15:16  <Tefad> i remember when my 1.6GB was 0
00:15:22  <TheJosh> the 500s are still too much per gig
00:15:27  <mikk36> 1245/320 =
00:15:51  <mikk36> yup, ok
00:15:52  <TheJosh> what is 1245?
00:15:56  <mikk36> eek's
00:16:06  <mikk36> 1730/400
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00:16:48  <mikk36> strangely, 320 ones have dropped a lot
00:17:09  <Digitalfox[Home]> My next upgrade, will be with 1 Terabyte disks on a raid 0 :)
00:17:24  <Tefad> asking for failure again ; )
00:17:25  <mikk36> 1245 EEK is €79.6
00:17:56  <Digitalfox[Home]> But I'll wait a bit longer, waiting for the technology to age
00:18:05  <mikk36> one more thing
00:18:11  <mikk36> TheJosh, where do u live ?
00:18:14  <mikk36> EU or US ?
00:18:35  <TheJosh> Australia
00:18:40  <mikk36> ok
00:18:53  <mikk36> there aren't those damn EU taxes :P
00:19:06  <TheJosh> 1 Australian dollar = 0.8282 U.S. dollars
00:19:30  <TheJosh> wow our dollar has risen a few cents...cool
00:19:33  <mikk36> lol
00:19:48  <mikk36> and how much is the cheapest 320GB Seagate 7200.10 offer ?
00:19:51  <TheJosh> 1 Estonian kroon = 0.087092841 U.S. dollars
00:19:54  <mikk36> SATA ofc
00:19:58  <Tefad> more like the US is dropping.
00:20:16  <TheJosh> ill check
00:20:30  <TheJosh> 1 Euro = 1.3627 U.S. dollars
00:20:52  <Sacro> whats it to £?
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00:21:05  <mikk36> 104USD is the cheapest here
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00:21:20  <mikk36> Sacro, use google
00:21:22  <mikk36> :P
00:21:23  <Sacro> mmm,
00:21:25  <mikk36> and it's calculator
00:21:27  <Sacro> dropped to .9951
00:21:32  <TheJosh> type 'pound' into google
00:21:44  <Sacro> i just do "1 £ in $"
00:21:45  <mikk36> 1 usd in gbp
00:21:48  <mikk36> :P
00:22:00  <TheJosh> 5 for a segate 320gig 16meg cache sata-ii
00:22:11  <TheJosh> although i will probably go WD
00:22:11  <mikk36> AUD or USD ?
00:22:14  <TheJosh> AUD
00:22:33  <mikk36> so it's even more expensive there ? :D
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00:22:38  <mikk36> heh
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00:23:13  <TheJosh> thats a good one though (sataII and 16meg cache)
00:23:46  <Tefad> sataII isn't the correct term
00:23:54  <mikk36> http://www.arvutikeskus.com/item.php?id=70220
00:24:06  <TheJosh> but for only 5AUD i can get the top-of-the-line western digital 320gig one
00:24:13  <mikk36> 1201 EEK ~ 104USD
00:24:16  <TheJosh> i know sataII is wrong but its easier to say
00:24:44  <mikk36> and that's a WD one
00:24:45  <mikk36> http://www.arvutikeskus.com/item.php?id=76684
00:24:57  <mikk36> 3USD difference :P
00:25:06  <Tefad> sata 3Gbps eh?
00:25:13  <mikk36> 300Mbps
00:25:13  <Tefad> SATA-300
00:25:15  <Tefad>  : D
00:25:16  <mikk36> MBps
00:25:17  <TheJosh> http://www.getright.com.au/v2006ver1/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=530&category_id=204&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26
00:25:24  <Tefad> it's 3Gbps.
00:25:27  <mikk36> nope
00:25:30  <Tefad> yes.
00:25:32  <mikk36> it's 300MBps
00:25:34  <Tefad> no.
00:25:37  <mikk36> yes
00:25:39  <Tefad> no.
00:25:48  <Tefad> 3Gbps of raw data rate.
00:25:56  <mikk36> ahh damn
00:26:07  <Tefad> actual file throughput is something like 250MB/s burst
00:26:38  <Tefad> and disks don't even go that fast yet.. i think the fastest now is still less than 90MB/s sustained.
00:26:46  <mikk36> yup
00:26:49  <mikk36> also
00:27:00  <TheJosh> That disk has a 5 year warranty, thats the bit i like (for my server)
00:27:11  <mikk36> Sata150 is 1.5Gbps but max transfer is 150MBps
00:27:24  <Tefad> also failure again
00:27:26  <mikk36> overhead
00:27:34  <Tefad> 1.5Gbps or about 125MB/s
00:27:43  <mikk36> Taking into account 8b10b coding overhead, the actual uncoded transfer-rate is 1.2 Gbit/s, or 150 megabytes per second (MB/s).
00:27:49  <mikk36> ;)
00:27:52  <Tefad> and remember there's some loss when converting from bandwidth to transfer speed.
00:27:59  <mikk36> see ? :D
00:28:37  <Tefad> there's also protocol overhead
00:28:53  <mikk36> yes
00:29:07  <Tefad> in any event, it is a giant mess for terminology.
00:29:13  <mikk36> but the actual max transfer speed (including overhead) is still 150/300MB/s
00:29:28  <Tefad> using bytes is misleading
00:29:45  <mikk36> it's what you get out of it
00:29:47  <Tefad> bytes generally relate to file transfer rates
00:30:36  <Tefad> i cannot count how many times people get it screwed up for network bandwidth measurements and file throughput....
00:30:48  <mikk36> that is a different story
00:30:52  <Tefad> not really
00:31:02  <mikk36> here it's that 8b10b thingie
00:31:10  <Tefad> gigabit ethernet uses the same 8b10b.
00:31:17  <Digitalfox[Home]> So with RAID-0 and 2 Disks SATA 2, You almost get 200MB of speed/s
00:31:25  <TheJosh> i dont care too much what the numbers are, as long as the throughput is high and the seek is low
00:31:27  <mikk36> Digitalfox[Home], nope
00:31:40  <mikk36> your first would have to get a disk that would do 100MB/s alone
00:31:41  <Digitalfox[Home]> mikk36: No?
00:31:46  <Tefad> 164MB/s approx.
00:31:48  <mikk36> which does not exist yet
00:31:54  <Tefad> at peak.
00:32:03  <Tefad> average will probably be something around 100MB/s
00:32:11  <mikk36> with sata1 and usual disks i got 90MB/s
00:32:12  <Tefad> still pretty fast.
00:32:18  <Digitalfox[Home]> Hum... Ok..
00:32:30  <Tefad> sata-300 doesn't offer much at the moment
00:32:47  <Tefad> but with sataII enhancements, users can connect more than one drive to a channel
00:33:00  <mikk36> enhancements ?
00:33:03  <Tefad> eSATA will be useful too.
00:33:13  <TheJosh> and there is also sata native queing
00:33:21  <mikk36> aka NCQ
00:33:35  <mikk36> native command queueing
00:33:45  <Tefad> NCQ doesn't improve single file performance if disk is defragmented
00:33:52  <Tefad> it can actually hinder performance slightly ; )
00:34:03  <mikk36> defragmentation is never good
00:34:09  <Tefad> but in general NCQ is advantageous
00:34:17  <mikk36> and can never be fighted without defragmenting the drive
00:34:24  <Tefad> defragmentation on near-full disks is unavoidable
00:34:25  <mikk36> fought*
00:34:39  <TheJosh> dont you mean fragmentation
00:34:40  <mikk36> well, then just don't fill it up that much
00:34:44  <Tefad> yup.
00:35:04  <Tefad> also age of the filesystem affects fragmentation
00:35:11  <Tefad> appending to files, etc.
00:35:21  <TheJosh> although ext3 self-defragments (i dont know about reiser)
00:35:31  <Tefad> i don't think any file system self-defragments
00:35:36  <mikk36> isn't that in every partition in linux ?
00:35:36  <TheJosh> juts by design (because of the file cache
00:35:43  <mikk36> a feature of the kernel
00:35:47  <Tefad> ext3 avoids fragmenting..
00:35:52  <Tefad> ext3 is slow as hell though
00:35:59  <Tefad> NTFS-3g even outperforms it.
00:36:05  <Tefad> (that is, NTFS on linux)
00:36:13  <mikk36> yup
00:36:21  <Tefad> it is possible to use NTFS as your root and boot disk in linux now.
00:36:23  <TheJosh> me, i like reiser. cant wait for reiser4
00:36:29  <mikk36> heh
00:36:33  <mikk36> for some reason
00:36:37  <Tefad> isn't reiser in jail
00:36:38  <mikk36> suse dropped using reiser
00:36:38  <TheJosh> does grub support ntfs?
00:36:43  <mikk36> and now defaults back to ext2
00:36:46  <Tefad> doesn't need to
00:37:00  <Sacro> no, it doesn't
00:37:04  <TheJosh> how can you boot a ntfs partition then?
00:37:06  <Sacro> you'd have to use an alternate bootloader
00:37:06  <Tefad> ntfs supports the hooks that grub uses to find block offsets.
00:37:14  <mikk36> chainload to windows' boot loader
00:37:19  <Tefad> do what?
00:37:32  <Sacro> you could have an ext3 /boot
00:37:35  <mikk36> grub forwards booting to windows' boot loader
00:37:38  <Sacro> but have / as ntfs
00:37:39  <mikk36> to boot windows
00:37:42  <Tefad> no.
00:37:43  <TheJosh> i usually bave a small (< 30meg) boot partition thats ext2 so anything can read it
00:37:50  <Tefad> i'm saying use NTFS as linux root file system
00:37:55  <Tefad> TheJosh: me too
00:37:57  <mikk36> u can't i guess
00:38:04  <Tefad> oh, and boot file system
00:38:21  <TheJosh> i try to keep my systems compadible so i can restore them easier
00:38:23  <mikk36> though, using ext2 for windows is possible :P
00:38:37  <mikk36> using hacks
00:38:38  <TheJosh> you can boot any of my systems using a vanilla kernel
00:38:57  <Tefad> booting from NTFS is pretty straightforward
00:39:03  <Tefad> but using it for root requires initrd.
00:39:13  <Tefad> since NTFS-3g is started in userspace.
00:39:30  <mikk36> anyway
00:39:35  <mikk36> i'll return to 3d now
00:39:40  <Tefad> however if you boot from evms, you're using an initrd anyway
00:40:14  <TheJosh> i guess if you wanted to be really compadible you would use vfat for your /boot
00:40:30  <TheJosh> then you could repair linux from a win98 boot disk
00:40:50  <Tefad> heh, is that possible? : x
00:41:02  <TheJosh> yeah, grub can read vfat i think
00:41:06  <Tefad> i use an ultimate boot cd for generic repairs
00:41:29  <Tefad> if i know i'm going to fix a linux box, i usually use some linux install/live cd
00:41:30  <TheJosh> basically if your bootloader can read it, you can use it
00:41:39  <Tefad> you mean the booloader writer
00:41:41  <TheJosh> me too, i have a LFS cd that I use
00:41:43  <Tefad> bootloader
00:42:08  <TheJosh> depends where you put the bootloader. i usually install grub to the MBR
00:42:37  <Tefad> usually bootloaders don't even bother with filesystems.. they just have a chunk of blocks in a predefined location of the disk and works from there.
00:43:14  <TheJosh> but grub is a bit different, its like a mini os. my favourite feature of it is the command line (with tab completion!)
00:43:16  <Tefad> the OS is what has filesystem drivers
00:43:22  <Tefad> ah
00:43:26  <Tefad> this is why i don't use grub ; )
00:43:37  <TheJosh> grub also has a menu
00:43:51  <Tefad> lilo can be configured in interesting ways too
00:44:00  <TheJosh> but press 'c' and you have a command line that you can use to boot just about anything (if you know the commands)
00:45:51  <TheJosh> i have winxp on a secondary hard disk, but windows can boot from secondary disks, but grub has a feature that virtually swaps the disks, so in my grub.conf i have, under the windowsxp menu item, swap (hd1) (hd0), before the lines that make windows boot
00:46:30  <Tefad> (i don't use windows, so most of this doesn't mean anything to me)
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00:47:07  <TheJosh> i usually dont, its there for movie maker
00:47:08  <Tefad> NTFS-3G is in active development and is even regarded as Stable
00:47:17  <Tefad> is that for transcoding?
00:47:36  <TheJosh> no i make movies your our church youth group, promotional videos, etc
00:47:53  <Tefad> ah. my friend was poking around with cinerella the other day
00:47:59  <Tefad> it exploded promptly.
00:48:09  <TheJosh> lol
00:48:33  <mikk36> cinerella ?
00:48:46  <Tefad> non-linear video editing
00:48:49  <Tefad> open source
00:48:53  <mikk36> k
00:49:10  <mikk36> and what does that "non-linear" mean ?
00:49:18  <mikk36> groovy ?
00:49:30  <Tefad> it means you can overlap segments and the like
00:49:49  <TheJosh> cool
00:49:51  <Tefad> do rotations/effects bla bla bla
00:50:01  <TheJosh> im going to check it out now
00:50:13  <mikk36> aint that usual stuff in most video editing tools ?
00:50:22  <mikk36> usually called effects
00:50:36  <Tefad> i think most video editing tools are non-linear
00:50:41  <mikk36> :)
00:50:45  <Tefad> the ones i use involve optimizing encoding
00:50:49  <Tefad> and they're quite linear
00:50:56  <Tefad> most of them are command line based.
00:51:00  <mikk36> well, encoding can be done using basic tools
00:51:05  <mikk36> for which i prefer virtualdub
00:51:11  <Tefad> those are linear editors.
00:51:14  <mikk36> yes
00:51:21  <Tefad> now you understand
00:51:26  <TheJosh> i like command line, except for a few things
00:51:47  <Tefad> webbrowsing.. media editing...
00:51:52  <TheJosh> basically
00:51:53  <mikk36> i'd prefer to call cinerella a video studio then :)
00:51:58  <Tefad> most things that involve only text.. i use CLI for
00:52:10  <TheJosh> i know people who hate vi, but i like vi
00:52:15  <mikk36> :)
00:52:15  <Tefad> i hate vi ; )
00:52:20  <Tefad> i hate emacs
00:52:20  <TheJosh> although if i have a gui i use it, im not crazy
00:52:20  <mikk36> i don't hate vi
00:52:27  <mikk36> i just don't use it if i can use smth else
00:52:35  <TheJosh> actually vi drives my crazy, i like vim
00:52:37  <Tefad> i've not met a text editor that i could say i like.
00:52:45  <mikk36> i like nano :)
00:52:46  <Tefad> in windows, i use crimson editor
00:53:00  <TheJosh> just make one (yate: yet another text editor)
00:53:05  <Tefad> i like its column mode.
00:53:31  <Tefad> i don't dislike joe enough to make my own.
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00:54:02  <TheJosh> vim all the way
00:54:03  <Tefad> and the only reason i don't like joe much is because i've not bothered to learn how to configure it via file.
00:54:23  <Tefad> i like joe.. i can use shift+arrows to make text selections.
00:54:59  <Tefad> but it doesn't seem to work when i'm using a text-mode console.
00:55:04  <TheJosh> i only know how to do about 5 things with vim (save, quit, and regex
00:55:13  <Tefad> more than i
00:55:37  <Tefad> !q or wq
00:56:12  <TheJosh> :w for save :q for quit :q! for quit without save / for regex
00:56:27  <TheJosh> n for next regex match
00:57:03  <Tefad> sounds like less ; )
01:02:27  <TheJosh> me h im off
01:02:30  <TheJosh> cya round
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01:47:57  <Digitalfox[Home]> Can anybody explain me, what does "Fund local road reconstruction" Does besides making my buses become crazy traped in roads with holes?? I mean what does it really for you?
01:50:55  <HMage`> I suspect it is a way to disrupt bus service for competitor's town
02:02:44  <Digitalfox[Home]> And that's the only real benefict? Nothing more, like town rating going up or anything?
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02:28:58  <Phazorx> is there a way in openttd to take ascreenshot of whole map?
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04:12:58  <mikk36> Phazorx, giant screenshot
04:15:08  <Phazorx> that is not really a map
04:15:21  <Phazorx> hard to deal with 65Kx32K screenshot anyway
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05:01:07  <ln-> mikk36: http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/200705016054874_uu.shtml
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05:02:37  <mikk36> sry, i don't understand finnish
05:05:04  <ln-> those men say they were arrested for more than 8 hours beaten by the police for no reason, just for entertainment.
05:06:31  <Phazorx> must be really boring there... no TV in finland?
05:07:00  <mikk36> 8 hours is 1/6 of the limit of 48
05:07:51  <mikk36> beaten ? for fun ? no way
05:09:36  <mikk36> that "no reason" might have been resistance
05:09:42  <ln-> that's what they say, and they are germans besides, so they probably don't share russians' opinions about the case.
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05:11:40  <ln-> also they say a lot of other non-related people were arrested and beaten for fun. but who knows for sure.
05:12:53  <mikk36> i can't comment on this because i wasn't arrested
05:40:55  <mikk36> http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/384207
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05:50:09  <mikk36> itink that that should be enough
05:50:26  <mikk36> i think*
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05:58:53  <mikk36> no comments from ln- :P
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06:54:47  <elmex> hm, i've read that with the junctions trains can get lost because they have to turn left to turn right. i've build such a cloverleaf and somehow didn't get any lost trains
06:56:12  <hylje> no
06:56:23  <hylje> you can very well have the route to right go from left
06:56:40  <elmex> http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Half_Cloverleaf
06:56:47  <elmex> 'Trains must turn left to go right. This could lead to trains getting lost. (Can be fixed by using waypoints).'
06:57:18  <elmex> it just confuses me :)
06:57:45  <elmex> i've build a lot crazy junctions and never got such a problem
06:58:14  <hylje> its old
06:59:06  <elmex> ah, so openttd handles train pathfinding better?
06:59:13  <hylje> yes
06:59:22  <elmex> thats goood to hear ;-) with all my crazy junctions
06:59:25  <hylje> trains are unlikely to get lost ever
06:59:29  <hylje> unless the network is flawed
07:00:33  <elmex> ah, ok
07:00:45  <elmex> thats explains why barely any train gets lost inmy networks
07:01:01  <elmex> http://www.ta-sa.org/files/sc/ttd_junction1.png <- this is such a crazy network :-)
07:02:45  <hylje> aww, the curves :>
07:04:35  <elmex> yes :-) there are some verey ugly 90deg. curves
07:05:00  <mikk36> (09:59:06) (elmex) ah, so openttd handles train pathfinding better? <-- that was the case in the original pathfinder
07:05:02  <elmex> http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Tetrathorp-Junction <- this seemsto have been invented exactly for the bad train-path-finding that was once there
07:05:20  <elmex> mikk36: ah, ok
07:05:38  <mikk36> original that came along from ttd
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07:05:57  <mikk36> problem was solved after npf and now yapf
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07:06:24  <elmex> ah, great :)
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07:10:41  <Phazorx> http://img.cx/e/4989696585/PICCYSNAP.COM_704_c.png
07:12:41  <mikk36> 3x3 :)
07:12:43  <mikk36> nice
07:13:34  <Phazorx> 5x5
07:13:43  <Phazorx> 3E+2L each way
07:14:07  <Phazorx> outer two are empty trains inner 6 are full ones
07:14:21  <Phazorx> well outter two pairs of two
07:15:04  <Phazorx> and the point is ... these 6 in a middle never stop
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07:55:18  <mikk36> :)
08:08:05  <peter1138> morning
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09:07:47  <Wolf01> hello
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09:30:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9764 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: replace some lookup tables by functions.
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09:39:25  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9765 /trunk/src/ (aircraft.h roadveh.h ship.h train.h vehicle.h): -Codechange: constify some class functions.
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09:40:00  <TheJosh> g'day all
09:40:40  <TrueBrain> hi TheJosh
09:41:05  <TheJosh> How are ya?
09:42:03  <TrueBrain> getting annoying by the sun
09:43:05  <TheJosh> what is annoying you about the sun?
09:44:25  <TrueBrain> lack of clouds between me and the sun
09:45:02  <TheJosh> we are just entering winter...i miss the sun
09:45:14  <TheJosh> where are you located?
09:46:17  <TheJosh> anyway, nice to chat but i must go
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10:08:17  <elmex> it's interesting, i've never really known the original ttd and i'm reading all kind of weird things as 'trains only make choices at two-way signals' ins the wiki which refers to to the old pathfinder - and now with the new ones everything is just natural
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10:20:43  <elmex> iwonder why servers often limit what you can build, eg. no ships and no air
10:21:09  <Rubidium> because ships, if not used properly, use massive amounts of processing power
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10:21:19  <elmex> ah ;-)
10:21:30  <elmex> i've never been successful with ships
10:21:30  <Rubidium> because aircraft, if used properly generate soo much money that it isn't funny to play online anymore
10:21:53  <elmex> ships are slow as hell and you have to set waypoints
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10:30:43  <elmex> ?
10:34:23  <SpComb> it's the illegal number
10:36:18  <SpComb> or actaully, part of it
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11:05:15  <eJoJ> Rubidium : does ships use massive cpu power even with yapf turned off?
11:06:16  <Rubidium> when YAPF and NPF are turned of it doesn't use as much CPU power (I believe), but it forces you to add lots of waypoints (what you basically need to do to when you play with YAPF on)
11:06:37  <TrueBrain> of = off ;)
11:08:04  <Rubidium> ooh, massive typo ;)
11:09:48  <eJoJ> hehe ;) I use waypoints from old habbit anyway ;)
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11:46:28  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9766 /branches/noai/src/squirrel_helper.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: remove a param from the stack after using, to avoid stack-coruption
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12:47:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9767 /branches/noai/ (29 files in 4 dirs):
12:47:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: add support for params in the constructor (via C++ templates)
12:47:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Update: updated squirrel_export to create template-tag for constructors
12:47:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AITileListCargoAcceptance, to get acceptance of a tile
12:47:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Update: updated regression to test AITileListCargoAcceptance
12:56:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truelight * r9768 /branches/noai/src/ (23 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: check if the amount of params for constructor are correct
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14:05:06  <organizm> hello all!
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15:21:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belugas * r9769 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: [newGRF] -Feature: Add translation support for Esperanto, Bulgarian, Japanese and Korean
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15:23:36  <Zuu> Esperanto <3, Lojban next? :D
15:24:32  <Patrick> mmm, lojban
15:33:44  <Belugas> if anyone can come up with a lojban complete translation, why not...
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15:53:45  <waroffice> im having touble compiling i get a winmm.lib missing error
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16:03:22  <elmex> is it possible to close a company in a multiplayer game?
16:04:22  <Rubidium> from the console it is
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16:04:41  <elmex> reset_company?
16:06:31  <elmex> that doesn't work
16:06:57  <Rubidium> help reset_company?
16:08:08  <elmex> well, that function is only available to a network server :)
16:08:12  <elmex> i mean as client
16:08:26  <Rubidium> something with rcon
16:08:52  <elmex> i don't ahve the serer password :)
16:09:10  <Rubidium> then you can't
16:09:21  <elmex> i want to stop my own company on a server in the internet, the only way is to wait for bankrupt?
16:09:33  <Rubidium> or ask the owner of the server
16:09:45  <Patrick> demolish lots of water if you want to go bankrupt fast
16:10:14  <elmex> well, i'm already bankrupt... someone logged into my company as i forgot to set the password and let my only train crash ;-/
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16:39:35  <peter1138> elmex: only train?
16:39:41  <peter1138> how can your only train crash? heh
16:40:34  <elmex> peter1138: well, it wasn't my only one... the one who logged in build another train to crash it ;-/
16:40:45  <peter1138> ah, heh
16:56:35  <Biff> hmm, news expire?
17:00:43  <Biff> http://discrete.eimot.no/~magne/openttd/no_unwanted_news_in_backlog.patch
17:04:45  <Biff> however, is there any reason for storing unwanted news?
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17:35:17  <Immow> hello
17:35:28  <TrueBrain> hi Immow
17:35:31  <Immow> is it posible to remove a industrie? :)
17:35:53  <TrueBrain> not without enabling cheats
17:35:54  <Zuu> Immow: Ctrl+Alt+C
17:35:56  <glx> magic buldozer (cheat menu)
17:36:01  <Immow> thnx
17:36:12  <Immow> so this is only posible in single player?
17:36:17  <TrueBrain> yup
17:36:34  <glx> be careful, AI can use it too when it's enabled
17:36:49  <Zuu> Including town AI.
17:37:16  <Immow> so me and my friend play online
17:37:21  <Immow> can he load game offline
17:37:25  <Immow> magic buldoze
17:37:29  <Immow> then make it online game?
17:37:33  <TrueBrain> yes
17:37:35  <Immow> cool :)
17:37:45  <Immow> he kept the game running for ages
17:37:51  <Immow> so city are all freaking huge ;)
17:38:16  <Immow> and the junction we want to build is 85 by 85 tile :P
17:38:35  <glx> with an industry in the middle?
17:38:40  <Immow> yea..
17:38:46  <Immow> well blocking it somewhere
17:38:57  <Immow> its not for industrie
17:39:12  <Immow> http://immow.nl/4_4_4_4_junction.png
17:39:26  <Immow> this does not fit now ;)
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17:42:20  <elmex> wtf
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17:43:10  <elmex> http://www.ta-sa.org/files/sc/ttd_junction2.png
17:43:51  <Immow> ?
17:44:34  <Immow> I think a new feature would be cool that you can buy a company and remove it
17:44:47  <elmex> :->
17:44:54  <Immow> if someone els als inside that area of that company
17:44:58  <Immow> he can ask money for it
17:45:07  <Immow> so if 2 people dont agree it can not be sold
17:45:19  <Immow> this is handy if something is in your way
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18:28:56  <dihedral> hello guys
18:29:01  <dihedral> have a little q for you
18:29:14  <dihedral> playing tropical
18:29:16  <Rubidium> oh noes...
18:29:18  <dihedral> staring 1935
18:29:19  <Rubidium> ;)
18:29:22  <dihedral> :-P
18:29:30  <dihedral> one player was able to build rail tracks
18:29:40  <dihedral> and then was not after that
18:29:50  <dihedral> first train available in 1946
18:30:00  <dihedral> any ideas?
18:30:31  <Rubidium> no
18:30:45  <Rubidium> but he could build in 1935?
18:31:15  <dihedral> yes
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18:31:37  <dihedral> station date is 20 feb 1036
18:31:54  <dihedral> and 22 may 1936
18:31:58  <Rubidium> normal non-electrified station?
18:32:03  <dihedral> yes
18:32:20  <dihedral> but now the rail construction window will not open at all
18:34:50  <Rubidium> it can only open when some player flags are set; I don't know any places where those flags are unset in-game so it sounds pretty fishy
18:35:48  <Rubidium> unless elrail is toggled on/off
18:36:05  <dihedral> no - was not
18:36:07  <Rubidium> but then *only* elrail is turned off
18:36:22  <dihedral> no rails are avail
18:36:41  <dihedral> if you feel like checking it out yourself
18:36:53  <dihedral> the company is still available
18:37:56  <dihedral> you are more than welcome to hope into the game and check it if you like
18:39:01  <Rubidium> let me guess, he has selected another climate in the main window?
18:39:25  <dihedral> it is hosted on a dedicated server
18:39:39  <dihedral> how would selecting a climate change the multiplayer game
18:42:07  <Rubidium> oh, never mind... I was thinking of a case where _opt.landscape might not be set properly
18:42:29  <Rubidium> but in that case he would've seen a completely different climate and desync pretty soon
18:42:43  <dihedral> there were 2 desyncs
18:42:50  <dihedral> him and then me
18:43:00  <dihedral> and i had just joined
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18:43:13  <Rubidium> what version?
18:43:19  <Rubidium> any grfs?
18:43:27  <dihedral> no grfs 0.5.1
18:43:45  <dihedral> i try to run on latest stable and no grfs at all times
18:44:12  <peter1138> you try to run no grfs at all times? how tedious :)
18:44:26  <Rubidium> dihedral: can you reproduce the desyncs?
18:44:42  <dihedral> i would not know how
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18:44:54  <dihedral> i only have savegames one a yearly basis
18:45:01  <dihedral> and it was 3 months in
18:45:06  <Rubidium> load an autosave from a few month before the desync happened
18:45:20  <dihedral> but to be honest in this version there have been more desyncs than ever
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18:45:40  <Rubidium> 0.5.0 had much less desyncs?
18:45:57  <dihedral> yes
18:46:07  <Rubidium> any chance of knowing in which RC the desyncs came?
18:46:10  <dihedral> at least i only very seldom witnessed them
18:46:23  <dihedral> hmmm...
18:46:24  <peter1138> mmm, scientific studies
18:46:49  <dihedral> before getting you enthusiastic about the desyncs
18:46:55  <dihedral> i run a patched server
18:47:08  <dihedral> but only in the sence that it runns more scripts
18:47:17  <dihedral> i.e. i have on_yearly.scr
18:47:22  <dihedral> and on_monthly.scr
18:47:23  <Rubidium> can you show me the diff?
18:47:29  <dihedral> sure
18:47:34  <dihedral> they are in the tt-forums
18:47:49  <dihedral> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=30474&highlight=
18:48:14  <dihedral> i use all 3
18:48:24  <dihedral> they dont interfer with the game in any way
18:48:33  <Rubidium> doesn't look desyncable
18:49:11  <dihedral> they are only for admin purposes
18:49:22  <dihedral> nothing that changes the map or anything networkable
18:49:42  <peter1138> he doth protest too much
18:50:12  <dihedral> che?
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18:52:27  <Rubidium> anyway, dihedral which RC started to show the first signs of more desyncs?
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18:52:59  <dihedral> i believe the desyncs were 3 months after http://pub.dihedral.de/openttd/FP2/autosave15.sav
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18:53:25  <dihedral> 0.5.0 had a few desyncs
18:53:50  <dihedral> seeing as i only had the servers since rc4 that does not give a lot of room
18:54:04  <Rubidium> bugger
18:54:08  <dihedral> 0.5.1 for sure thou has more of them
18:54:18  <dihedral> and i did skip 0.5.1RC1
18:54:32  <dihedral> so that rules out a few versions
18:54:54  <dihedral> no wait - i sarted with rc3
18:55:30  <dihedral> hmmm... let me check as of when i have the source code from /tags :-) that might actually help :)
18:56:30  <dihedral> ok - i have tags/0.5.0-RC1
18:56:47  <dihedral> so there is no reason for me to have that checked out if i was not running the server
18:57:01  <dihedral> sorry for the confusion
18:57:20  <dihedral> my servers were started beginning of feb
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19:30:22  <dihedral> anyway guys - i shall head out for today
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20:35:06  <Digitalfox[Home]> peter1138 and belugas: Could you look at this please http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=21365&start=160 lat post
20:35:14  <Digitalfox[Home]> *last post
20:36:55  <peter1138> what about it?
20:37:24  <Sacro> it smells like cheesy feet
20:37:45  <Digitalfox[Home]> peter1138: He says "action 5 OD, Coast Tile Graphics" isn't working
20:37:54  <peter1138> i can read
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20:39:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought newwater was not supported?
20:39:17  <Digitalfox[Home]> I know you can read, i was just explaining why i put the info here
20:39:55  <Digitalfox[Home]> No need to get angry ;)
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20:42:47  <peter1138> coast tiles are supposed, corner coast tiles are not
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21:00:28  <Belugas> bye, going home
21:01:01  <Wolf01> bye
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21:15:22  <elmex> it's interesting to see that not many people build up networks
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21:16:21  <elmex> i can't understand that... building up a network an amazing and fun thing to do
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21:22:33  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:07:29  <Kittysune> odd
22:15:00  <ln-> even
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22:38:51  <Ailure> paradox
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23:10:39  <UndernotBuilder> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=581288#581288
23:10:41  <UndernotBuilder> the revenge of jasper?
23:10:42  <UndernotBuilder> or maybe we should call it the reborn?
23:15:09  <Sacro> oh god no
23:15:13  * Sacro takes cover
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23:25:45  <Sionide> woowww
23:25:51  <Sionide> passenger destinations looks awesome..
23:26:01  <Sionide> anyone know if there are any linux binaries for it available?
23:26:09  <Sionide> i'm reading through the topic now looking for one
23:26:52  <Patrick> building it from source is much easier than finding a binary
23:26:56  <Touqen> indeed
23:27:07  <Touqen> That mod has had a bit of a turbulent past though.
23:27:31  <Sionide> hrm
23:27:38  <Sionide> seems to be picking up some pace at the moment though
23:27:52  <Touqen> Cool
23:27:58  <Sionide> i can compile stuff, but i'm not so good with using .diff files, any HOWTOs anywhere?
23:28:08  <Touqen> Sionide: There are instructions on the wiki
23:28:20  <Sionide> should have looked before asking
23:28:26  <Sacro> Sionide: its easy
23:28:27  <Touqen> it's basically cd to the svn directory and patch < mypatch.diff
23:28:29  <Sacro> cd into your dir
23:28:30  <Touqen> It's super simple.
23:28:41  <Sacro> patch -p0 -i /path/to/diff
23:28:43  <Sacro> and your done
23:28:45  <Sionide> so should i compile the latest nightly?
23:28:47  * Touqen was close.
23:28:59  <Sacro> Touqen: your way works too i belive
23:29:14  <Touqen> I would imagine the nightly should be sufficient.
23:29:22  <Touqen> or you can just get it directly from trunk
23:30:32  <Sionide> i need to learn svn properly actually
23:30:37  <Sionide> so i can use it in projects at uni
23:30:45  <Sionide> would have been very useful for the last one i just did
23:31:08  * Touqen recommends bookmarking the svn redbook
23:31:17  <Touqen> There's quite a bit of nifty stuff in there.
23:31:57  <Touqen> holy crap
23:32:13  <Touqen> I just started visual studio with my new 2GB of ram
23:32:21  <Touqen> I've never seen it load so fast.
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23:36:37  <Sionide> Fetched 48.4MB in 6m49s (118kB/s)
23:36:59  <Sionide> eww, visual studio :(
23:37:06  <Patrick> mmm
23:37:13  <Touqen> I <3 visual studio for windows development.
23:37:16  <Patrick> looks like an apt output
23:37:35  <Patrick> yeah, if I had to dev on windows and I didn't only know python I'd use VS
23:37:52  <Touqen> For python I used Eclipse + PyDev :D
23:38:01  <Patrick> eclipse can go hang
23:38:08  <Patrick> I just use kate atm, or idle on windows
23:38:37  <Touqen> Hrm.. Exclipse doesn't seem to load noticeably faster though.
23:42:21  <Sionide> err
23:42:21  <Sionide> sionide@sphinx:~/games/openttd/svn$ svn up -r 9739
23:42:21  <Sionide> Skipped '.'
23:42:41  <Sionide> does that mean it worked, or didn't work?
23:43:25  <Touqen> I think it freaks out if you try to backdate a revision
23:43:31  <Touqen> err backdate an update
23:43:39  <Touqen> try doing co -r 9739
23:44:18  <Sionide> i'm now getting a "File to patch" prompt...?
23:44:36  <Sionide> bleh
23:44:42  <Sionide> svn: Not enough arguments provided; try 'svn help' for more info
23:45:18  <Touqen> Sionide: Are you in the right directory?
23:45:21  <Sacro> svn co -r 9739 svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk
23:45:30  <Sacro> or svn -r 6434 up
23:45:52  <Sionide> do i need to be *in* the dir where the code is, or the one below?
23:45:57  <Sacro> err...
23:46:03  <Sacro> then svn root
23:46:05  <Touqen> Sionide: Have you downloaded the sources at all?
23:46:07  <Sionide> ohh i see
23:46:10  <Sionide> yeah the source is there
23:46:17  <Touqen> Sionide: from subversion?
23:46:31  <Touqen> because it won't work if you use something you downloaded from elsewhere
23:46:37  <Sionide> from svn yeah
23:46:42  <Sionide> Updated to revision 9739.
23:46:43  <Sionide> yay
23:47:49  <Sionide> err
23:47:50  <Sionide> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
23:48:11  <Sionide> do i need to ./configure   first?
23:48:29  <Sionide> sorry for being such a noob :/
23:48:47  <Sionide> it doesn't say that in the wiki page thought
23:48:49  <Sionide> -t
23:48:57  <Sionide> now compiling, wheehoo
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23:54:22  <Sionide> ...
23:59:42  <Sionide> pwjfpwqjfpwjrfpwqjfpoqwf

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