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Log for #openttd on 1st September 2007:
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00:10:36  <Smoovious> midi and ogg just aren't comparable as music file types
00:11:06  <Smoovious> midis are just an instruction set for how to play  the music... ogg is a recording
00:11:27  <svip> Yes.
00:11:32  <svip> But no one uses midis any more.
00:11:42  <Smoovious> yes they do
00:11:51  <svip> I mean on a serious level.
00:11:56  <Smoovious> so do I
00:12:54  <Sacro> midis ftw
00:13:26  <Smoovious> midis didn't even originate wiith computers, but with electric keyboards
00:14:05  <Smoovious> and personally, I won't buy a sound card without excellent, programmable, midi support
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00:42:43  <MrBrrr> Aye Aye!
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00:52:01  <svip> :|
00:52:02  <svip> Hm.
00:52:11  <svip> In order to check for which tool is selected.
00:52:23  <svip> I need to make some sort check function.
00:52:34  <svip> But also make it public the functions that _place_proc refers to.
00:52:38  <svip> So I can compare them.
00:52:48  <svip> Unless of course there is another way to check what something points at.
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01:16:12  <Belugas> [19:34] <svip> You can't?  Or you _can't_? <--- the music is not our property, but still Atari (or whoever has the rights).  So if we convert them to something else, it means we are manipulating original and copyright material.
01:16:27  <Belugas> therefor, cannot touch nor convert the music
01:16:44  <Sacro> not even whistle it on the bus?
01:17:19  <Belugas> but we would welcome all the artists who could donate any piece of good and in-the-style type of musice :)
01:17:37  <Belugas> and yes, why not, recording of Sacro's whistling :)
01:18:04  <Sacro> hehe
01:18:11  <Sacro> i have the tt music on my phone
01:18:20  <Sacro> i have Broomers Rag when i recieve a call
01:18:27  <Sacro> and the TTDX theme for my alarm
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01:21:23  <Belugas> not as hooked :D
01:22:25  <Belugas> alhough my cell phone rings with the sound of a steam engine entering a station, with whistle and steeam release :)
01:22:40  <Belugas> plus the tracks clickering
01:27:51  <_Ben_> If people play back the music on instruments, but the sheet music is made from the midi, would that still be copyright to atari? (or whoever..)
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01:32:04  <Sacro> _Ben_: yes
01:33:12  <_Ben_> hmm, how to artists usually get away with doing covers?
01:33:17  <Sacro> err
01:33:19  <Sacro> Fair use
01:33:25  <Sacro> or they pay royalties
01:34:49  <Belugas> or they make enough modifications that it is almost a different song, such as the lawyers could not prove it is the same.
01:35:04  <Belugas> difference between inspired and copied, i guess :)
01:36:17  <_Ben_> hmm, if you are playing it on an instrument then it can only be inspired, as the original method was manually entered
01:36:45  <_Ben_> what about just switching the key to a perfect 4th of the original.  Almost the same, but not a single note in common!
01:37:07  <Belugas> progressin is still the same
01:37:22  <Belugas> transposition is not a new song
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01:37:45  <Belugas> what about getting a keyboard ang get inspired :D
01:37:57  <_Ben_> I have a keyboard
01:38:13  <Belugas> my stuff is only on guitar, and i can't finish a damn song i've composed
01:38:36  <Belugas> you do?  nice :)
01:38:58  <Belugas> in that case, we may start to replace the files :D
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01:39:06  <_Ben_> I can play the TT theme song, although I don't have a convincin claranet midi, although my sister plays claranet but I dought I could convince her to play TT music!
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01:45:28  <_Ben_> If an artist rights sheet music, its not illegal to sell a recording of that being played is it?  Or is that different as you buy that right when paying for the sheet music?
01:45:36  <_Ben_> writes*
01:46:05  <Belugas> i do not know...  it may depends on what you wnat to do, i guess
01:46:21  <Belugas> as for the sound of claranet, weel... to bad :)
01:46:34  <Belugas> maybe we need some new music style ;)
01:48:06  <_Ben_> suggestions?
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01:51:39  <Belugas> it has to be hem...
01:51:44  <Belugas> entertaining,
01:52:01  <Belugas> with good rythm,
01:52:06  <Belugas> something joyfull
01:52:16  <_Ben_> christmas carols...
01:52:19  <Belugas> lol
01:56:26  <_Ben_> hmm well structured jazz is kinda that, although that is the original style is it not?
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02:43:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> <_Ben_> hmm, how to artists usually get away with doing covers? <- here is an institution [in germany that's called GEMA] that gathers money from all performing artists and gives it to the writers of the music. there is a similar institution for playing back recordings, which pays to the artists that recorded it
02:44:30  <_Ben_> Do you know how long music holds copyright?
02:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> like anything else, death of the author + 70 years [in europe]
02:45:43  <_Ben_> hmm tricky to get around that one
02:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> means you are free to play mozart or beethoven ;)
02:46:32  <Sacro> so we need to kill CS
02:46:35  <Sacro> and then wait 70 years
02:46:40  <_Ben_> somehow I don't think TT players would see that as a suitable equivilent
02:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> chances are, CS had absolutely nothing to do with the music :p
02:47:16  <Sacro> Simon Broomhall then
02:47:47  <_Ben_> well we could do some scott joplin, as locomotion has
02:51:54  <_Ben_> If the original TT music is recorded from real instruments and distributed, I asume that wouldn't be a crime if it released under a leicence that inshores it remains free, as it's the profiting that would be the crime right?
02:54:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't think that is going to work...
02:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> the laws (at least in germany) are a little more liberal with music than with software, i.e. you are allowed to make private copys of music and give them to family and close friends (as long as it does not involve circumventing copy protection)... but afaik that does not include non-profit public distribution
02:57:37  <_Ben_> dam the law. Always getting in my way
02:57:54  <MrBrrr> lol
02:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> (note that it also does not include "friends" you "meet" over "filesharing programs" :p)
02:59:44  <_Ben_> Although the music is devirved from a copyrighted origin if you were to transfer midi to sheet and then play it on instruments, the actually music you have has required a person/people to add a great deal of there own work to it in order to get the music to the finished state, so I think that is quite unfair that it remains copyrighed to the author of the midi
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03:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's not necessarily the author of the midi, it's the composer of the music, which might or might not be the same person
03:01:26  <_Ben_> In TT I asume it is the same person?
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03:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have no idea... but creating a midi from sheet music is usually not a "creative work" in the sense of copyright law...
03:03:09  <_Ben_> yeah, I was refering to the reading and playing of an instrument that is creative
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03:38:32  <Smoovious> making a midi from sheet music is an awful way to make a midi file anyways
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04:23:34  <Red>  heading your way.
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04:35:00  <Red> !changes
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07:45:52  <phiker> hi, is it currently planned to have easier upgrade methods for trains instead of having to replace them all one by one?
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07:49:28  <Wolf01> hello
08:04:33  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11030 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp openttd.cpp saveload.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Revert r11016, Fix [FS#1178]: the way to determine whether a station should get goods was not done properly.
08:04:38  <Rubidium> phiker: there's something called autoreplace that does that
08:08:04  <phiker> Rubidium: how can I use that?
08:08:48  <Rubidium> see the wiki
08:09:02  <Rubidium> something like wiki.openttd.org/wiki/Autoreplace (I think)
08:09:39  <Rubidium> actually, http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Autoreplace works better
08:10:07  <phiker> uhm well, I meant upgrading like monorail -> maglev
08:10:35  <Rubidium> then no, I think
08:10:44  <phiker> not even planned?
08:11:22  <Rubidium> we'd first need multitile (read multirailtype) depots for that
08:12:10  <phiker> why not simply let users define what engines should be replaced with other ones in the replace vehicles dialogue, and then replace them when the upgrade tool is applied to a rail depot?
08:12:53  <Rubidium> because one shouldn't have maglev trains in a monorail depot and vice versa
08:13:19  <phiker> when you upgrade it, it becomes a maglev depot
08:13:24  <phiker> and therefore can have maglev trains in it
08:13:34  <Rubidium> yes, but first you have monorail trains in it
08:13:44  <phiker> which were upgraded from monorail trains according to the rules defined in some dialogue
08:13:59  <Rubidium> not if you didn't specify it
08:14:05  <phiker> I want to specify it.
08:14:14  <phiker> Otherwise an error box could be shown.
08:14:15  <Rubidium> yes, but sometimes people don't
08:14:31  <phiker> then it wonÂŽt work, but thatÂŽs not too big a problem
08:14:52  <phiker> ItÂŽs a hundred times easier to specify this and then upgrade your complete railnet instead of replacing 40 trains one by one.
08:14:59  <Rubidium> either do it correctly or don't do it at all
08:15:27  <phiker> well, whatÂŽs wrong with letting the user define what should happen?
08:16:01  <Rubidium> it brings the game in an inconsistent state and people start complaining that it "doesn't" work
08:16:11  <phiker> inconsistent? in what way?
08:16:30  <Rubidium> monorail vehicles on maglev track for example
08:16:55  <phiker> and... how should that happen with this approach?
08:17:10  <Rubidium> depots have track to
08:17:26  <phiker> indeed
08:17:30  <Rubidium> and track types are only checked when they change
08:17:30  <phiker> and... whereÂŽs the problem?
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08:17:43  <Rubidium> so once a monorail train is on maglev track it will happily run
08:17:57  <phiker> and how should it get there?
08:17:59  <Rubidium> and then people start complaining that monorail runs on maglev and vice versa
08:18:59  <phiker> (perhaps IÂŽm just too stupid, but IÂŽm really trying to understand what youÂŽre saying :-)
08:19:41  <Rubidium> because you have maglev trains in a monorail depot (or vice versa) because you didn't set an autoreplace for all vehicles, trains will run on the wrong track type
08:20:04  <phiker> no
08:20:15  <phiker> if I donÂŽt set an autoreplace, nothing gets done and an error box is shown
08:20:56  <phiker> "You canÂŽt upgrade this depot because you didnÂŽt specify a replacement for train 36." or something like that
08:21:56  <Rubidium> oh... and what when you can't have coal wagons on maglev? (Like with most newgrfs)
08:22:29  <Rubidium> it would require a hell of a lot of code to get it right
08:22:36  <phiker> you canÂŽt have coal wagons on maglev? sorry, I didnÂŽt know that
08:22:50  <phiker> well then, probably the user shouldnÂŽt be upgrading his network if he wants to continue delivering coal...
08:22:54  <Rubidium> as I said: with some newgrfs
08:23:14  <phiker> so he wonÂŽt use this feature and wonÂŽt have problems
08:24:26  <Rubidium> people are stupid and click on everything
08:24:52  <phiker> thatÂŽs true I guess
08:25:23  <phiker> youÂŽre right, showing an error box then is much work
08:25:26  <SmatZ> phiker: you can code a client-side patch to do that work for you
08:25:58  <phiker> SmatZ: of course I could. IÂŽm just wondering why this isnÂŽt included by default. Now I know :-)
08:26:19  <phiker> Though I still think it would be worth it...
08:26:51  <Rubidium> phiker: problem is that there are a gazillion other things that are "worth" it to be included
08:27:11  <phiker> so thereÂŽs simply no time for working on that particular "feature"?
08:27:17  <SmatZ> yes, similiarly I would like an ability to upgrade railtype when a train goes over it...
08:27:21  <Rubidium> and the autoreplace dev has not that much time
08:27:57  <phiker> SmatZ: and why donÂŽt you use the normal replace tool?
08:28:02  <phiker> itÂŽs not too much work, is it?
08:28:46  <phiker> ok then, IÂŽll try making a patch. ItÂŽll sure be crappy. But itÂŽs enough if it works for me.
08:29:34  <SmatZ> phiker: because it cannot be done
08:29:44  <SmatZ> when a train is on the tile, you cannot convert it
08:30:11  <SmatZ> funny
08:30:28  <SmatZ> you can convert depots, when a train is on the tile, but not regular railway
08:30:35  <phiker> wouldnÂŽt it be a bit unrealistic if you could upgrade a train while itÂŽs driving?
08:31:33  <SmatZ> now I was talking about railway->el.railway conversion
08:31:48  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11031 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: reduce the amount of duplication of bit counting functions. Based on patches by skidd13, SmatZ and Belugas.
08:31:49  <phiker> aah
08:32:04  <SmatZ> similiarly, there could be trains that run both on monorail and maglev...
08:32:29  <phiker> although I canÂŽt calculate this, it doesnÂŽt sound like itÂŽs much work?
08:32:30  <SmatZ> I think OTTD can be unrealistic :)
08:32:50  <phiker> but what I thought you meant was _very_ unrealistic ;)
08:32:56  <SmatZ> :-)
08:35:29  <Noldo> Rubidium is on a bug closing spree
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08:36:16  <phiker> isnÂŽt it sufficient to check whether the railway is ugpraded normal->electric and allow it then?
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08:37:13  <SmatZ> Rubidium: is it intended, that a Railway depot can be upgraded to El.Rail, even when there is a train not stopped in the depot?
08:37:33  <SmatZ> phiker: yes... probably there was some decision form devs not to allow that
08:37:44  <SmatZ> I don't know
08:37:57  <phiker> SmatZ: perhaps. although I donÂŽt know why they should disallow that
08:38:01  <Rubidium> el rail came *after* the convert tool
08:38:10  <Rubidium> says enough I think
08:38:26  <phiker> :D
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08:40:06  <phiker> given that someone does that task, would it be included then?
08:41:10  <SmatZ> I will do something about it
08:41:32  <phiker> great
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08:42:02  <phiker> then IÂŽll try doing something about the normal railway -> maglev thing...
08:43:29  <peter1138> different kettle of fish
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08:43:57  <peter1138> well, all the vehicles have different engine types
08:51:40  <SmatZ> hmmm it needs more work - if an electrified rail can be converted to normal rail
08:51:51  <TrueBrain> GOOD MORNING VIETNAM!
08:51:53  <TrueBrain> wait, wrong date..
08:51:54  <SmatZ> when an el.train is already on the tile
08:52:11  <SmatZ> rather second world war :-P
08:52:13  <phiker> is this that difficult to check?
08:52:49  <SmatZ> phiker: no... but I am not sure if there is any reason to allow conversion el.rail -> normal rail
08:54:08  <Nickman> hi all
08:54:12  <phiker> SmatZ: iÂŽm not aware of one, but that doesnÂŽt mean that there is none...
08:54:52  <TrueBrain> morning Nickman
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08:55:52  <SmatZ> a nice bug in current code - buy an el. train, let it go a little bit out of depot (stay on the same tile), then convert the el.rail to normal rail
08:56:09  <SmatZ> mmmm
08:56:17  <SmatZ> strange now it works :D
08:58:19  <peter1138> :D
08:58:42  <Noldo> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1149 anyone :)
09:01:05  <SmatZ> yes ... convert it to normal rail, reverse the train, then convert it back
09:01:12  <SmatZ> to el. rail and it won't start
09:01:21  <SmatZ> you have to reverse it again
09:01:50  <Nickman> whats going on today? :)
09:01:56  <SmatZ> so - the status of the train (hp) is updated only when reversing, not while converting rails under the train
09:02:44  <SmatZ> Nickman: we (I) are (am) now taling about rail -> el. rail ->rail conversion
09:03:10  <Nickman> I saw ;), seems like a bug to me :p
09:03:32  <SmatZ> yes... I will do something about that
09:05:52  <SmatZ> *will try  ...
09:06:13  <Nickman> :D
09:08:03  <phiker> does a depot count as MP_RAILWAY, MP_STATION, MP_ROAD or MP_TUNNELBRIDGE?
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09:10:21  <phiker> guess I have to figure that out myself then...
09:10:36  <SmatZ> I would suppose MP_RAILWAY
09:10:55  <SmatZ> but do not trust me, better verify :)
09:11:43  <phiker> SmatZ: youÂŽre right
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09:13:09  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11032 /trunk/src/clear_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: unmagicify some table sizes and removal of some unnecessary variables. Patch by frosch.
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09:21:50  <phiker> ah btw rubidium
09:22:04  <phiker> the monorail train wonÂŽt run on a  maglev railway because of missing power :D
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09:50:13  <SmatZ> what is the meaning of Train_Multiheaded ?
09:50:21  <SmatZ> and Train_Articulated_Part ?
09:50:25  <SmatZ> I mean
09:50:51  <phiker> SmatZ: perhaps whether the train has multiple engines?
09:51:34  <SmatZ> for TGV, one part is Train_Engine | Train_Front | Train_Multiheaded
09:51:39  <SmatZ> second has only Train_Multiheaded
09:52:03  <SmatZ> eg. what is the difference between Train_Multiheaded and Train_Articulated_Part ?
09:52:21  <SmatZ> I though the second part will have Train_Articulated_Part, but it doesn't :-(
09:54:01  <TrueBrain> articulated parts are part of the first engine and can not be disconnected
09:54:09  <TrueBrain> multiheaded can have N things between the first and last
09:54:34  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: thank you
09:54:35  <TrueBrain> a coal wagon behind a steam engine is articulated
09:54:40  <TrueBrain> a TGV is multiheaded
09:54:48  <TrueBrain> a dictonary lookup would have helped you out too ;)
09:56:16  <SmatZ> I though TGV and similiar trains are Articulated in TTD, so I was confused
09:57:38  <SmatZ> for safe check, whether a vehicle has some power, is
09:57:53  <SmatZ> IsTrainEngine(v) || IsMultiheaded(v)
09:57:55  <SmatZ> enough?
09:58:09  <SmatZ> or should I use
09:58:11  <SmatZ> GetVehicleProperty(u, 0x0B, rvi_u->power)
09:58:11  <SmatZ> ?
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10:07:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: there are powered wagons (e.g. DBSetXL)
10:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> depending on consist, some passenger or mail wagons have power
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10:13:19  <peter1138> check TrainPowerChanged() basically
10:13:39  <peter1138> but remember it is allowed for electric power to be on non-electric rail if it has non-electric power as well
10:16:57  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2:  peter1138 I will do my best
10:18:18  <peter1138> what are you solving, anyway
10:20:19  <SmatZ> to make better ability of converting rail <-> el.rail
10:20:36  <SmatZ> now, only depots can be converted
10:20:44  <SmatZ> but even when there is a train outside the depot
10:21:09  <SmatZ> I think it would be nice to convert rail <-> el. rail even when there is a train on it
10:21:14  <SmatZ> don't you think so?
10:21:28  <TrueBrain> sjoep sjoep sjoep sjoep
10:21:30  <TrueBrain> sing with me!
10:21:36  <SmatZ> if not, I won't do that patch, and I will only make small changes
10:21:40  <SmatZ> sjoep sjoep sjoep sjoep
10:21:55  <SmatZ> peter1138:  ^^^
10:24:44  <SmatZ> do you want to be possible to convert rail -> monorail on a crossing, when there is a road vehicle on it?
10:28:29  <Alltaken> hi guys
10:28:43  <Alltaken> hows the game going everyone.
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12:44:36  <svip> :O
12:45:10  <nairan> *.*
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12:46:00  <svip> Pretty eyes.
12:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> i kinda associate other things with *.* :p
12:48:51  <svip> :P
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12:50:58  <nairan> heh
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13:09:38  <karsten> hello
13:09:51  <karsten> I have a question about openttd
13:09:56  <svip> Hello, Dutchie.
13:10:15  <karsten> does anyone know if it is possible to autofill the train orders table?
13:11:06  <svip> Checked the wiki?
13:11:39  <karsten> i can't find anything about it
13:11:54  <svip> Hm.
13:12:05  <svip> I don't think it is possible in the trunk yet.
13:12:36  <karsten> i can only find on the global internet that is is possible to autofill the time's in an timetable with a patch
13:12:51  <svip> Yeah.
13:12:55  <svip> You need a patch.
13:12:59  <svip> I've read about it.
13:13:40  <karsten> but where can i find that patch? i even don't know the name from that patch
13:14:32  <svip> Two seconds...
13:14:58  <svip> Here we go.
13:14:58  <svip> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33524
13:16:01  <karsten> ok thanks fot that
13:16:05  <karsten> I shall try it
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14:36:16  <Wolf01> uh, i just noticed the fundraiser campaign for OTTD.org, remember me to donate 20€ when i'll get my new card
14:36:30  <svip> :O
14:36:42  <svip> So what is the money for?
14:36:46  <svip> Buy out Chris Sawyer?
14:36:49  <svip> Buying*
14:36:59  <TrueBrain> follow the blue link! :)
14:37:04  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: tnx a lot, and we will ;)
14:37:05  <svip> Blue?
14:37:42  <TrueBrain> links are blue here
14:37:47  <TrueBrain> even if they are in the topic
14:37:48  <Wolf01> the problem is *when* i'll get the new card... i asked for it 2 days ago :P
14:37:49  <svip> :|
14:37:53  <svip> Not really.
14:37:58  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: that sucks
14:38:32  <Wolf01> the links are in yellow for me :D
14:38:38  <svip> :|
14:38:43  <svip> The links are not coloured for me.
14:38:51  <svip> Because I have disabled colours.
14:38:54  <svip> On IRC.
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14:46:38  <thingwath> is revision 11011 just a performance thing?
14:46:54  <TrueBrain> @openttd commit 11011
14:46:55  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r11011 /trunk/src (10 files) (2007-08-30 21:11:12 UTC)
14:46:56  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Fix [FS#1129]: GetFirstVehicleInChain did change the game state while being marked const.
14:46:57  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Codechange: do not brute force determine the first vehicle in the chain or previous vehicle, but do it by properly accounting the previous and first pointers when updating the next pointer. This gives a performance increase of about 15% when there are a lot of vehicles in the game.
14:47:14  <TrueBrain> I think the commit logs really says it all :)
14:47:42  <thingwath> well...
14:47:50  <thingwath> it breaks my tender locomotives
14:48:03  <svip> Hmmm?
14:48:21  <TrueBrain> indeed: hmmm? :)
14:50:19  <thingwath> http://www.fi.muni.cz/~xbarto11/r11011.gif - ugly :)
14:50:26  <svip> .gif?
14:50:29  <svip> No wonder it is ugly.
14:50:36  <thingwath> :)
14:50:42  <svip> And there is no month called "Led".