Log for #openttd on 27th September 2007:
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10:43:40  <dihedral> just had a pretty desync :-P#
10:43:43  <dihedral> 0.5.3
10:43:54  <dihedral> 2 minutes in from that save
10:44:00  <dihedral> i was spectating
10:45:27  <boekabar1> so it's reproducable without doing anything ?
10:46:04  <boekabar1> hm, that was a paradox ;)
10:50:19  <dihedral> i have not tried it :)
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10:53:56  <SmatZ> hello
10:56:09  <dihedral> hi
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10:59:55  <Ammler> SmatZ: How is process with underground?
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11:02:59  <SmatZ> Ammler: I did some progress :) it needs some changes on some places, and I want it to be a nice code...
11:04:33  <Ammler> :)
11:04:53  <Ammler> Is there a hardcoded amount of possible autosaves?
11:05:04  <Ammler> !s/amount/limit/
11:07:04  <SmatZ> Ammler: depends on _patches.max_num_autosaves
11:07:35  <Ammler> yeah, thats 255
11:09:12  <SmatZ> if you have _patches.keep_all_autosave , then autosaves have name in format of standard savegame, and their numebr is unlimited
11:09:44  <Rubidium> s/unlimited/limited by the size of your storage device(s)/
11:09:44  <SmatZ> at least it looks so when looking into openttd.cpp:1020
11:09:45  <hylje> wat are u doin
11:09:58  <hylje> Rubidium: pedant
11:12:54  <dihedral> Rubidium: i never get to see the 'Network-Game synchronisation faile' error message when i get desynced
11:14:09  <Rubidium> what message do you get?
11:16:29  <dihedral> none
11:16:43  <dihedral> i only know because the server says so on the console
11:17:06  <dihedral> i find myself simply back in the main menu
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11:22:34  <Ammler> hmm, is there a problem with autosaves, if you restart the server?
11:22:57  <Ammler> the number is at 255, but it restarted at 0 after 55
11:23:43  <Ammler> (after 53)
11:30:05  <Ammler> _autosave_ctr <-- what kind of variable is that, is "secure" over restart?
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11:34:38  <SmatZ> Ammler: no, it is not initialized anywhere (it is set to 0 after game start, and then it starts counting)
11:35:19  <SmatZ> after each start, it saves to autosave0.sav
11:37:38  <dihedral> Ammler: do you restart the game, or run 'newgame'
11:38:22  <Ammler> just restart the server with loading the "old" save
11:38:50  <Ammler> i.e. after upgrading to a new nightly
11:39:24  <dihedral> ah
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13:08:43  <skidd13> hi
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13:11:33  <MarkSlap> How can I remove a Coal Mine?
13:12:05  <boekabar1> enable the magic bulldozer cheat
13:12:09  <boekabar1> and bulldoze it away
13:12:12  <MarkSlap> Mmkey
13:12:16  <MarkSlap> How do I do that?
13:12:30  <boekabar1> ctrl-alt-(win)-c i think
13:12:32  <boekabar1> maybe shift too
13:12:55  <MarkSlap> Oh, thanks :)
13:13:02  <boekabar1> happy cheating! :P{
13:13:06  <MarkSlap> :P
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13:15:42  <Belugas> MarkSlap: don't forget to remove the cheat afterward, 'cause even towns will be able to use it
13:15:49  <MarkSlap> I saw that :)
13:15:51  <Belugas> and you'llbe in for a big surprise ;)
13:16:17  <MarkSlap> ;)
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13:19:41  <MarkSlap> I like the "Build in pause"-mode
13:19:42  <MarkSlap> :)
13:19:55  <MarkSlap> Everything is so, quiet
13:20:10  <boekabar1> you muist like the 10 million cash too then :)
13:20:16  <MarkSlap> Haha
13:20:30  <boekabar1> playing the sandbox game :)
13:20:39  <MarkSlap> I've got billion already
13:20:40  <MarkSlap> :P
13:21:00  <boekabar1> you clicked that button 2300 times? :)
13:21:15  <MarkSlap> Haha
13:21:16  <MarkSlap> No
13:21:17  <MarkSlap> :P
13:21:31  <MarkSlap> I've played this map for like, ehm, 350 years or so
13:21:41  <MarkSlap> It's pretty overpopulated
13:21:45  <boekabar1> and now that coal mine is in the way?
13:21:49  <MarkSlap> Yes
13:22:08  <boekabar1> time to type resetmap in the console :)
13:22:34  <MarkSlap> World population: 385.614
13:22:40  <MarkSlap> On a 256x256 map
13:22:41  <MarkSlap> ^^
13:23:05  <boekabar1> is that much? i have no idea
13:23:28  <MarkSlap> Pretty
13:23:51  <MarkSlap> You can surley push in some more, but it's tight
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13:50:07  <MarkSlap> Mmkey
13:50:38  <MarkSlap> I removed a city, but the name is still there, can I remoce the name? :D
13:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause> only in scenario editor
13:51:30  <MarkSlap> Oh, okey
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14:35:16  <Amixwoktest> ey
14:36:58  <SmatZ> eyeyey! welcome
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14:52:44  <Dradge> hi
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15:11:25  <Nickman> hi all
15:11:28  <hylje> oh hi
15:16:55  <SmatZ> hi
15:17:06  <Dradge> hi
15:23:24  <Nickman> :)
15:24:16  <Dradge> who i got headhackwhen trying understand the Ottd Array map !
15:24:57  <hylje> regarding that when do we get magic map?
15:25:19  <Dradge> magic map ?
15:25:47  <hylje> arbitrary shaped bridges and tunnels
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15:25:58  <hylje> well, mostly arbitrary
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15:27:55  <Dradge> i just want to try develop on way signals :) But now i'm just looking at the code to see the complexity of the thing :)
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15:32:10  <Dradge> but need to update sign, pathfinder, train_cmd, array_map and more i think
15:32:21  <hylje> well then
15:32:23  <hylje> first up
15:32:30  <hylje> detach the stuff from each other
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15:34:28  <Dradge> first i have to look at the code and understand some parts :)
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16:34:37  <Dradge> hylje, maybe i think it will be better for me to develop easier thing for begining :)
16:34:41  <hylje> :P
16:34:58  <hylje> as a matter of fact i'm considering making a train simulator from scratch
16:35:50  <Bjarni> you want to make an open sourced MSTS?
16:35:56  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
16:35:56  <Bjarni> !logs
16:36:14  <hylje> more in the likes of tycoon games
16:37:07  <Bjarni> I don't know any tycoon games that can qualify as train simulators
16:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean you want to have people drive through OTTD maps in ego view?
16:37:23  <Bjarni> ego view :D
16:37:40  <Bjarni> I think it's called first person view
16:37:43  <hylje> haha
16:37:49  <hylje> you are thinking too specialized
16:38:03  <hylje> i'm talking train simulator as in you have virtual trains and tracks
16:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so what is ottd then?
16:38:49  <Dradge> make a simulator and ride in your openTTD networks :D
16:39:01  <Dradge> me crazy :D:D:D
16:39:04  <hylje> :o
16:39:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i suggested already...
16:39:16  <Rubidium> has been done before (though kinda buggy)
16:39:21  <Bjarni> Dradge: that's Eddi|zuHause's ego view XD
16:39:27  <hylje> but basically
16:39:43  <hylje> what ottd does in practice, designed from ground up
16:39:49  <Dradge> i imagine a 3D Engine for openttd
16:40:28  * Bjarni imagines a 2D engine for OpenTTD
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16:40:52  <hylje> well Bjarni, wake up
16:41:04  <hylje> now, in 2007, there is a 2d engine for ottd!
16:41:12  <Bjarni> I didn't say how it should be compared to the current engine
16:41:23  * Eddi|zuHause imagines a 1D engine for OpenTTD
16:41:27  <Rubidium> isn't the current engine kind 2.5D?
16:41:41  <Eddi|zuHause> 2.epsilon
16:41:49  <hylje> 2d which pretends to be 3d
16:42:05  <Dradge> 1D = just command line game ??? :D
16:42:17  <Bjarni> no
16:42:22  <Bjarni> 1D is a line
16:42:31  <hylje> but the line can span multiple lines
16:42:46  <Bjarni> so it's a 2D screen that's just a single pixel wide
16:42:56  <Bjarni> or a long line ;)
16:43:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the map array is also 1D, so why should the map representation be different?
16:43:21  <Bjarni> good point
16:43:30  <hylje> the 1D array pretends it's 2D
16:43:39  <hylje> and the 2D map pretends to be 3D
16:43:42  <hylje> gottit?
16:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: one should some time measure the fractal dimension of an ottd map :p
16:49:26  <hylje> fractal maps!
16:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> like they once did for the british coastline
16:49:34  <Bjarni> hylje: why would you want to code an OTTD clone?
16:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: for legal reasons :p
16:50:01  <hylje> because its interesting
16:50:12  <Rubidium> but... hylje has already been tainted...
16:50:40  <Bjarni> hylje has been tainted from before even TT was made
16:50:45  <hylje> haha
16:51:49  <hylje> derivative work to the "tainted" code maybe through the second or third revision
16:52:38  <hylje> my primary reason for the plans are because it's interesting, though :>
16:59:01  <Bjarni> it's a huge task
16:59:12  <Bjarni> why not work on OTTD to get your goal?
16:59:18  <hylje> it'd involve
16:59:20  <hylje> 1) c++
16:59:26  <hylje> 2) redesigning stuff ground u
16:59:27  <hylje> up
17:01:56  <hylje> it could be feasible later on, but now i don't have time to first up learn how C works
17:04:46  <Bjarni> ...
17:05:01  <Bjarni> can you really code C++ without being able to read C?
17:05:30  <hylje> i can see how the code goes. generating new code is whole another thing
17:06:16  <Bjarni> if you can read C and write C++, I say you can code in the OpenTTD code
17:06:27  <Bjarni> it accepts C++ stuff if needed
17:06:56  <hylje> i can't write any c++ i know of either
17:07:00  <hylje> sorry if that was unclear
17:07:32  <Bjarni> you want to code this without being able to code either C or C++?
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17:08:33  <hylje> it's not like i'm using some point-n-click game maker
17:08:39  <hylje> rather python
17:08:52  <Bjarni> you remind me of a guy, who once contacted me. He wanted to code a Dune 2 clone, but he was unable to even code a switch case, so he was looking for coders to work with (read: could code his idea)
17:09:07  <hylje> heheh
17:09:21  <Bjarni> I said maybe if he could find somebody else as well
17:09:26  <hylje> i have a bare-bones mmorpg server ive coded by myself
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17:09:49  <Bjarni> since everybody said that or no, he never got any yes and the idea stopped at his handwritten ideas
17:10:00  <Bjarni> which were basically drawings of tank sprites
17:10:07  <hylje> :o
17:11:07  <Bjarni> his plan didn't even include anything like a game loop or even functionality for internal stuff
17:11:10  <Bjarni> no structure at all
17:11:31  <hylje> :D
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17:12:36  <Bjarni> I say that I would be able to code it today, but back then I was able to code pascal and I didn't even know how to code in more than one file (I never reached linking or headers) and my compiler could not handle more than 64k chars in a single file
17:12:54  <hylje> :o
17:12:57  <Bjarni> since the other people he asked was more or less at the same level...
17:13:08  <Bjarni> hey, this was even before Dune 2000
17:13:18  <hylje> that stuff is always the same
17:13:36  <hylje> don't go to
17:14:02  <Bjarni> I guess I could do it today, but back then I was.. not as experienced as I am today
17:14:34  <Bjarni> I think it was like 10 years ago
17:14:35  <hylje> now you're just being redundant
17:14:41  <Bjarni> or more
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17:18:38  <hylje> my grand plan with the thing is to have it scale
17:18:41  <hylje> scale a whole lot
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17:23:32  <Bjarni> now that I think about it, it could be fun to try to make that project now
17:23:50  <Bjarni> but now the issue is not the skills, but my free time :(
17:23:57  <Rubidium> Bjarni: you don't have time for that ;)
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17:24:18  <Bjarni> also the time/gain is likely not in favour of this project either
17:24:25  <Bjarni> Rubidium: I just said so ;)
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17:31:45  <Bjarni> X Error of failed request:  BadAccess (attempt to access private resource denied)
17:31:45  <Bjarni>   Major opcode of failed request:  100 (X_ChangeKeyboardMapping)
17:31:45  <Bjarni>   Serial number of failed request:  8
17:31:45  <Bjarni>   Current serial number in output stream:  13
17:31:51  <Bjarni> any idea what this means?
17:32:03  <Bjarni> I get it when I log in using ssh
17:32:47  <Bjarni> and better yet: how do I make it go away :)
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17:35:16  <Rubidium> install Windows
17:36:01  <Prof_Frink> sudo rm -rf /
17:36:02  <Bjarni> somehow I think I will be laughed at if I request that uni installs windows on the Sparc server system
17:36:23  <Bjarni> and I think deleting everything is a bad idea as well
17:36:49  <Prof_Frink> Hit ^L as soon as it appears.
17:41:33  <Bjarni> heh
17:41:35  <Bjarni> funny :P
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17:45:11  <Wolf01> hello
17:47:05  <SmatZ> hello
17:47:27  <SmatZ> today I tried to make rendering multithreaded
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17:47:38  <SmatZ> now OTTD uses ~120% of my CPU ^_^
17:47:40  <hylje> :o
17:47:55  <glx> how is it possible?
17:48:02  <hylje> multithreading
17:48:14  <hylje> a properly multirheaded app will eat up each and every cpu you throw at it
17:48:26  <SmatZ> actually -> second thread does only
17:49:13  <hylje> :o
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17:51:29  <Bjarni> <glx> how is it possible? <-- it depends on the software to display this. Certain systems report 100% as a maxed out CPU, so a dualcore CPU has 200% available
17:52:03  <SmatZ> ah... yes, I have a dualcore CPU, one core runs at 100%, second at 20%
17:52:23  <Bjarni> bbl
17:52:27  <glx> ha ok, each core are 50% for me
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18:34:34  <Bjarni> back
18:38:22  <Bjarni> the % of each core is purely a software thing. I can get both depending on what software I use to check. It's not really important which one you use as long as you are aware of which system you use
18:38:49  <SmatZ> at least I can see that both cores are used ... and that is good :)
18:39:22  <Bjarni> agreed
18:39:47  <Bjarni> but if you disable a core, will it be slower to use threads and how much?
18:40:05  <hylje> multithread is always slower
18:40:11  <hylje> but it scales better
18:40:15  <Bjarni> and will the 120% actually result in a faster game if you look at the overhead as well
18:40:17  <SmatZ> yes... the question is 'how much'
18:40:37  <SmatZ> the 120% speed was only with maximum zoom-out
18:40:45  <Bjarni> yeah, that's basically what I'm asking... "how much?" :)
18:40:47  <hylje> my python tycoon game doesn't multithread, it clusters
18:40:48  <SmatZ> with normal zoom-in, it was ~100%...
18:41:00  <SmatZ> can I force a program in Linux to run only on one core?
18:41:01  <hylje> with my current design outline, that is
18:41:23  <Bjarni> I can at OS level disable a core so the whole system is singlecored
18:41:27  <SmatZ> hylje 8-) looks interesting
18:41:37  <hylje> don't keep your hopes up
18:41:47  <hylje> i don't have any plans to start doing it soon
18:42:00  <Noldo> is the OS able to split single thread on multiple cores
18:42:06  <hylje> but if someone else is interested in my ways, i can write a through spec
18:42:09  <hylje> Noldo: no
18:42:10  * Bjarni increase hylje's "hopes dashed" by 95
18:42:11  <SpComb> <@pythonUser> threads are stupid
18:42:34  <Bjarni>   <Noldo> is the OS able to split single thread on multiple cores <-- short answer: no
18:42:44  <hylje> long answer: no, with comments
18:42:48  <Noldo> :)
18:42:50  <SmatZ> Noldo: not split, but it can change the core it runs at during program run... resulting in performance problems, when the cores don't share caches
18:43:04  <Noldo> aha
18:43:10  <SpComb> so sometimes when your OS is bored, it'll flip the thread from core to core, just for fun
18:43:15  <hylje> haha
18:43:27  <Bjarni> long answer: even if you only use single threaded apps, you will still benefit from using more than one core because the OS will split the load of the different apps between the cores
18:43:34  <SpComb> but that's the price you have to pay for having more than one core
18:44:03  <SmatZ> the price I pay for having more cores is the money I pay more :)
18:44:20  <hylje> :p
18:45:15  <Bjarni> also even singlethreaded apps like OpenTTD can easily result in using more than one thread. On OSX the game opens a thread for the game, one for the video driver and one for the ... hmm is it sounds or music... can't remember
18:45:45  <Bjarni> this is done because the libraries used for the drivers are multithreaded so the functions the game calls in them are threaded
18:46:14  <hylje> enough of this mac user babble :p
18:46:27  <Bjarni> I don't know if the game can benefit from it by running anything in parallel though. It could be that only one thread is active at any one time
18:46:48  <Bjarni> I never tried to max it out to test this
18:47:08  <Bjarni> and even then I'm not sure that I could get a usable result
18:47:24  <SpComb> <-- or you run something like MySQL
18:47:34  <Bjarni> hylje: rule #1 on IRC: never tell an op to shut up :P
18:47:52  <hylje> Bjarni: you dont dare to play that card
18:48:10  <Bjarni> *don't
18:48:20  <hylje> punctuation is for silly people
18:48:31  <Bjarni> no
18:48:51  <Bjarni> it's for people, who understands language structure and benefits from it
18:49:31  <hylje> it's only beneficial when there is ambiguousness involved
18:49:49  <Bjarni> I disagree
18:50:41  <Bjarni> but I can see that you learned how to use languages, but never reached the level of truly understand linguistic structures
18:51:01  <hylje> haha
18:51:15  <hylje> i'll use the linguistic structures when ima writing an essay
18:51:36  <hylje> but i'm not particularly fond of them when using real time communication
18:51:36  <SpComb> in ur logistical structures writing mah essay
18:51:37  <Bjarni> "ima" is not a word :P
18:51:46  <hylje> you understood it
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18:52:04  <Bjarni> but you made me stop at it for a moment so it's harassment of me
18:52:18  <Bjarni> so you are actually being rude
18:52:58  <Bjarni> also it makes me think about the sentence rather than the content of the sentence and I presume that you want me to do the latter
18:53:07  <hylje> its all compromises
18:54:46  <hylje> and if you didn't notice, there's a glaring ambiguous ' missing
18:55:04  <Bjarni> I did
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18:55:40  <Bjarni> Brianetta: you agree with me, right?
18:57:20  <Bjarni> heh... looking at top gives me a flashback to the good old days where memory mattered
18:57:29  <Bjarni> 44.7M free
18:58:05  <Bjarni> now it dropped to 25
18:58:25  <Bjarni> oh well
18:58:53  <Bjarni> I kind of knew this would happen when I set the tuner to cache the TV signal in RAM rather than the disk
19:00:53  <Bjarni> I have low disk activity though
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19:09:45  <SpComb> he left!
19:15:39  <Bjarni> no he didn't
19:15:42  <Bjarni> he is just hiding
19:15:52  <Bjarni> and he is damn good at it
19:16:09  <Bjarni> he even made it look like a timeout
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20:40:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11175 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Codechange: sort the NewGRFs by name, making searching a specific NewGRF a lot easier.
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20:46:17  <Sacro> rawr
20:46:19  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:48:34  <Sacro> anyone here have office 2007/
20:49:06  <MiHaMiX> Sacro: yeah, that's 100000
20:50:11  <Sacro> MiHaMiX: eh?
20:51:23  <MiHaMiX> Sacro: i meant you're meaning the new excel2007 bug
20:51:26  <Sacro> the Hull University Mountineering Club seems to be releasing info in .docx format
20:51:31  <Sacro> and I can't open that
20:51:51  <MiHaMiX> ahh
20:52:16  <MiHaMiX> unfortunately i don't have office2007, but maybe there's a downloadable viewer for them?
20:55:38  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: OOXML's an open format, so just unzip it and get the relevant info from the XML
20:55:53  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: the XML is a bugger to read
20:56:11  <Bjarni> Sacro: it's unstable that they release info in a format you can't read. Sending the data to this channel is not really a solution. You have to figure out how to open it or (maybe unlikely) make them release in a different format
20:56:22  <Sacro> Bjarni: i'm going to post a reply now
20:56:26  <Sacro> to either a) use .doc
20:56:36  <Sacro> or b) JUST USE F'ING HTML OR RTF
20:56:44  <Prof_Frink> b) .pdf c) .txt
20:57:26  <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: you didn't verify that he can read pdf before writing b) :P
20:57:47  <Prof_Frink> d) (which comes before a) really) odt ;)
20:58:26  <SmatZ> I typed this url  ... and was scared that ottd is gone! hopefully not, phew :)
20:58:40  <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: There's free pdf readers for pretty much every OS, so it's a fair assumption
20:59:11  <Bjarni> yeah, but maybe he didn't install any reader
21:00:48  <Ammler> OpenDocument
21:01:04  <Bjarni> speaking of software issues, I contacted the guy who deals with software installs in the lab today about an issue. The solution: reboot the computer in linux (and then the linux login issue was fixed)
21:01:28  <Bjarni> but I like this: app fails. Solution get rid of windows and boot in linux and then it just works
21:01:52  <Prof_Frink> I like his style
21:01:56  <Bjarni> and not only that, it actually turned out to be noteworthy faster in linux
21:02:23  <Prof_Frink> Is he a [ropr BOFH?
21:02:41  <Sacro> Please can you not send me files in .docx format as only one peice of software (Office 2007) can open it, can you either send e-mails using, in order of preference, plain text (txt), HTML, PDF, Office 2003 (doc), or OOo (odf).
21:02:44  <Sacro> anything else?
21:03:08  <Bjarni> <Prof_Frink> I like his style <-- me too. I was actually upset about the fact that I could not log in in linux, but it turned out to be a corrupted settings file in my account and I was told how to quickly bypass it
21:03:40  <Sacro> Ammler: not much point in OpenDocument
21:03:43  <Sacro> tis e-mail
21:03:51  <Sacro> so either txt, or html. or at most, PDF
21:04:08  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: Erm, .png of a screenshot of the document open in WOrd?
21:04:17  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: yes, even that
21:04:21  <Bjarni> hehe
21:04:30  <Sacro> even if he printed it, photographed it on a wooden table and then mailed that
21:04:33  <Bjarni> png would work, but jpg is a nono :)
21:05:00  <Prof_Frink> .wav of it being read by Microsoft Sam?
21:05:14  <Bjarni> wtf is Microsoft Sam?
21:05:32  <Prof_Frink> Windows default text-to-speech voice
21:05:38  <Sacro> Microsoft Bob!
21:05:42  <Bjarni> ahh
21:06:25  <Tefad> the day microsoft starts making vacuums is the day their products stop sucking.
21:07:11  <MiHaMiX> good night
21:10:24  <Bjarni> heh, that was fun
21:11:02  <Bjarni> I decided to try text to speech (which I really rarely use) and I just picked the last line on IRC that was a decent sentence to test on
21:11:10  <Bjarni> turned out that Tefad delivered that one
21:11:20  <Bjarni> so I leard it like 20 times
21:11:35  <Bjarni> and every time it sounded even more right :P
21:14:36  <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: kismet+festival is good
21:15:53  <Prof_Frink> reads out AP SSIDs
21:16:05  <Bjarni> ?
21:16:07  <Bjarni> I just have the default OSX voices
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21:22:24  <Sacro> <- long bit of reading
21:22:26  <Bjarni> heh, that text to voice can figure out how to say OpenTTD right :D
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21:39:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11176 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): -Revert (r9867): as it is needed for newgrf callbacks 14B and 14C
21:47:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11177 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp newgrf_callbacks.h): -Codechange: add support for newgrf callbacks 14B and 14C
21:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> !openttd commit 9867
21:48:01  <Jango> ciao for now
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21:48:06  <_42_> Commit by belugas :: r9867 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs) (2007-05-18 00:33:47 UTC)
21:48:08  <_42_> -Codechange: Remove data duplication.  The exact same values can be found in the industry spec, so take it from there instead.
21:48:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and what exactly do 14b and c do?
21:49:30  <glx> they can change accepted and produced cargo type for an industry on creation
21:51:22  <glx> "These callbacks are called when the industry is built, and allow customizing the input and output cargo types dynamically." <-- from TTDP wiki
21:51:31  <Amixwoktest> i think that if highway should be added. it would have to be a new icon or something. it would draw 2x2 on the map etc.
21:51:57  <Amixwoktest> like
21:52:02  <Amixwoktest>  //
21:52:11  <Amixwoktest> or
21:52:18  <Amixwoktest>  \
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21:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> why? you could easily have 4 icons for directions (/ up , / down, \ up, \ down)
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21:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but you will need diagonal roads to avoid sharp turns
22:06:52  *** boekabart [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:10:47  <Amixwoktest> ;)
22:10:54  <Amixwoktest> how about intersections?
22:11:04  <Amixwoktest> from 2 lane to 4 lane road etc?
22:11:28  <Amixwoktest> mods have done pretty cool stuff for simcity4 atleast :)
22:12:21  <Eddi|zuHause> highways don't usually have intersections, just bridges and onramps
22:12:34  <Eddi|zuHause> for end tiles, that's a little different, yes
22:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that you have to do choose graphics based on the nabouring tile
22:15:13  <Eddi|zuHause> *neighbour*
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22:36:43  <SmatZ> I did measurements: with threaded rendering on a uniprocessor system, it is ~ 10% faster - on multiprocessor system, it is up to ~10% faster, but only on maximum zoom-out ... no normal zoom, rendering is not bottleneck...
22:36:50  <SmatZ> so rather useless
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22:40:53  <SmatZ> just if anybody would try to do this... I tried
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22:52:06  <Bjarni> SmatZ: well, 10% is better than nothing
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22:52:34  <Bjarni> however I rarely zoom out. I resize the window instead or play in fullscreen
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22:53:50  <Bjarni> but it was worth investigating
22:54:12  <SmatZ> yes, I wanted to try it :)
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22:54:54  <SmatZ> errr... I wrote it wrongly ... on uniprocessor system, it is 10% slower actually
22:55:13  <Bjarni> that makes more sense
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22:55:23  <SmatZ> it would need to be compile-time option etc. - too much work for little effect
22:55:39  <Bjarni> both yes and no
22:55:46  <Bjarni> keep it
22:56:12  <SmatZ> I did svn diff to stero it for following generations :)
22:56:13  <Bjarni> and we can add it if we make threads somewhere else
22:56:42  <Bjarni> I mean if we add a 10% in one place and 10% somewhere else and so on, eventually it would matter
22:56:47  <Sacro> hmm
22:56:48  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
22:56:48  <Sacro> !logs
22:57:25  <SmatZ> it would be nice, but it is hard to find places that can be done in parallel - not to lose multiplayer synchronisation
22:57:46  <Bjarni> yeah
22:57:47  <SmatZ> maybe tile animation
22:58:26  <Bjarni> I wondered about vehicle loop every tick, but then I realised that it would be hell to code without causing desyncs
23:00:50  <SmatZ> yes... vehicles interfere with each other, and with structures - so it very depends on in what order are things done - if city builds road before vehicle tries to use it, if train moves and makes green signal this way for other train, or if they are moved in different order
23:01:06  <SmatZ> or what are you talking about?
23:01:19  <Bjarni> actually I was thinking of splitting out ships from all other vehicle types
23:01:23  <Bjarni> and the same with aircraft
23:01:42  <Bjarni> but then I started to think "hey, what about station loading"
23:02:33  <Bjarni> ships will not interfere with any other vehicle types anywhere else
23:03:31  *** abraxa_ [] has joined #openttd
23:03:35  <SmatZ> :-( also, VehicleID could be different when something is replaced/sold... and then newly replaced aircraft could have different VehicleID
23:04:44  <Bjarni> that's not an issue
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23:05:12  <SmatZ> no?
23:05:37  <Bjarni> you see, because it used to be a problem I changed autoreplace to deal with vehicles after the vehicle loop and hence after the threads would have rejoined
23:05:48  <SmatZ> aha
23:06:06  <Bjarni> so during the actual loop though all vehicles, crashed vehicles can be removed, but no new vehicles can appear
23:07:39  <SmatZ> so it is rather good - if "station ticks" were done before vehicle ticks (where vehicles wouldn't load/unload), it could work
23:07:53  <Bjarni> yeah
23:09:23  <Bjarni> there is an issue with running costs though. All 3 threads shouldn't access the player money all the time and wait for each other here
23:09:43  <Bjarni> it's a minor issue though and it can be dealt with
23:09:59  <SmatZ> yes
23:11:14  <SmatZ> it would also (maybe) need to solve Random() for aircraft crash at airport and Random() for vehicle with no orders or so
23:11:29  <SmatZ> if there is such problem
23:12:03  <Bjarni> if I recall correctly, there is no need to check cash in the loop. We can't run out of money as the only thing is running cost (needs to be verified!) and cash would just go into negative if needed
23:12:11  <Bjarni> uhhh... random
23:12:14  <Bjarni> didn't think of that
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23:16:44  <SmatZ> you could use different random() for aircrafts and different for other vehicles
23:16:48  <SmatZ> so they won't interfere
23:18:16  <Bjarni> maybe
23:18:33  <Bjarni> but looking at the random function... I'm lost there
23:18:47  <Bjarni> I usually code stuff that should be consistent, not random
23:18:54  <Bjarni> in fact I never code anything random
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23:19:56  <Bjarni> if you can autoreplace something, then you can always do it if it's buildable, you have money and so on... the replace is also always the same. No need for any randomness here
23:19:57  <SmatZ> :-)
23:21:00  <SmatZ> 'randomness' is not a good word for that what happens in the algorithm
23:21:34  <SmatZ> you can everytime say what will be the next 'random' number if you know the internal state... I dont know how many bits you need, maybe 64, 128...
23:21:40  <SmatZ> so it is defined
23:21:55  <SmatZ> but giving much broader state space
23:22:03  <Bjarni> yeah, it can't be pure random as pure random would cause desyncs
23:22:06  <SmatZ> for everything using random()
23:22:11  <SmatZ> yes
23:22:26  <SmatZ> I am trying to cheer you up :)
23:22:32  <Bjarni> imagine getting breakdowns in sync if the random was 100% random
23:22:46  <SmatZ> :-)
23:23:01  <SmatZ> then random() would need to be distributed from the server...
23:23:23  <Bjarni> causing a whole lot more data to be transmitted
23:24:00  <SmatZ> yes
23:25:00  <Bjarni> I really don't get the random number generator
23:25:08  <Bjarni> not really any comments
23:25:15  <Bjarni> and it looks like random code to me :P
23:26:01  <SmatZ> :-D
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23:27:14  <SmatZ> 	_random_seeds[0][0] = s + ROR(t ^ 0x1234567F, 7) + 1;
23:27:19  <SmatZ> do you mean this code?
23:27:31  <Bjarni> mersenne.cpp
23:27:53  <Bjarni> btw what name is that anyway?
23:28:20  <SmatZ> ah... it looks a bit complicated, yes :)
23:29:01  <SmatZ> Mersenne? I think it is a French name, a mathematic
23:29:39  <Eddi|zuHause> from the Mersenne Primes
23:29:45  <Bjarni> ahh
23:30:00  <SmatZ> yes... but not likely that he was interested only in primes
23:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> which are prime numbers of the form 2^n-1
23:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> where you can prove that n must be a prime number itself
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23:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: no, but i think the file is about those
23:31:48  <SmatZ>
23:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> "Its name derives from the fact that period length is chosen to be a Mersenne prime."
23:33:44  <SmatZ> yes yes, I read that :)
23:34:11  <Bjarni> yeah, we can read
23:34:27  <Bjarni> if we couldn't, then we wouldn't benefit from you copy pasting :P
23:34:33  <SmatZ> :-)
23:34:55  <Bjarni> in fact, I presume that everybody in here can read
23:35:12  <Sacro> i can't :(
23:35:22  <Bjarni> oh well
23:35:28  <Bjarni> there is always an exception or two
23:35:32  <SmatZ> :-D
23:38:29  <Bjarni> maybe I should give it a go
23:39:08  <Bjarni> I mean I can always makes this thing threaded and then try to fix the syncronisation issue
23:39:26  * Sacro learns norwegian
23:39:32  <Bjarni> why???
23:39:45  <Sacro> so i can read lego instructions nativly
23:39:52  <SmatZ> it may be interesting to try that - if you have enough time - try it! :)
23:40:03  <Bjarni> err
23:40:14  <Bjarni> the native language of lego is Danish
23:40:28  <SmatZ> :-)
23:40:36  <Sacro> dutch?
23:40:41  *** Name101 is now known as N101
23:41:09  <SmatZ> Sacro: /whois Bjarni
23:41:23  <Sacro> he used to be .nl
23:41:25  <Bjarni> Sacro will never learn it
23:41:26  <Sacro> now he is .dk
23:41:30  <Sacro> i think he is confused/lost
23:41:34  <SmatZ> :-D
23:41:55  <Bjarni> I think the fact that I translated some Dutch for him once made his confusion complete
23:42:58  <Bjarni> Sacro: wanna hear something funny?
23:43:19  <Sacro> always
23:43:26  <Bjarni> my domain name in whois haven't changed since I found OpenTTD
23:43:59  <Bjarni> in fact it was stable from even before I found out what IRC is
23:44:24  <Bjarni> now I know it's a place of insane perverts and freaks
23:44:33  <Bjarni> and sometimes even normal people
23:46:11  <SmatZ> Internet is full of it
23:46:18  <SmatZ> perverts and freaks...
23:49:00  <Bjarni> IRC is part of the internet
23:50:35  <SmatZ> yes, and chat rooms, image boards, message boards, news, ...
23:51:01  *** N101 [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "what do you call a bunch of nerds discussing on the internet?" - "the internet."
23:52:24  <SmatZ> :-)
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