Log for #openttd on 23rd December 2007:
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00:05:19  <Tefad> haven't seen this one before (polka)
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00:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> valhalla1w: i suspect infinite recursion
00:10:07  <valhalla1w> Eddi|zuHause: yes.. a footnote got stuck into an image caption
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00:11:06  <skidd13> Anyone knows where I can get those canals? ->
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00:33:32  <Bjarni> <--- wow... hackers really attack everything
00:33:51  <Bjarni> even places you didn't even think about
00:33:57  <Bjarni> <-- here too
00:34:21  <Bjarni> all Dutch but just the image without sounds gives a good impression of what goes on
00:36:14  <skidd13> Wooo
00:36:24  <skidd13> Chaos days are coming
00:36:45  <Bjarni> I think they will add security now
00:37:24  <Bjarni> otherwise the signs will end up saying 250 when some geek wants to drive really fast
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00:38:15  <Bjarni> I think the most surprising one is the TV station
00:38:44  <skidd13> yeah
00:38:56  <Bjarni> not only do they have an open network to the stuff they read they also read what it says nomatter how odd it is
00:40:12  <Bjarni> we have two major TV stations here. I'm pretty sure one of them would stop reading the signs and say "something went wrong in the computer" and revert to improvising because the readers actually knows what they are supposed to say (this actually happened)
00:40:34  <Bjarni> the other station did really poor when the text printing computer crashed
00:40:52  <Bjarni> but at least they realised that the computer had a problem
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00:44:03  <SmatZ> I really wonder why they show their faces in the video
00:44:18  <Bjarni> me too
00:44:23  <skidd13> SmatZ: It's a hacker not a cracker
00:44:25  <Bjarni> but then again he is the king
00:44:33  <Bjarni> people should now the king
00:44:42  <Bjarni> and we know that he is the king... the signs says so
00:44:53  <SmatZ> if the king won't be busted when police finds him
00:44:59  <skidd13> Hackers want things to be fixed. Crackers want to missuse things for their own purpose
00:45:01  <Bjarni> and it's an official sign placed by the government
00:45:12  <SmatZ> skidd13: aren't they doing something illegal anyway?
00:45:28  <skidd13> SmatZ: Sure but the motivation behind is different
00:45:46  <SmatZ> I am afraid the law doesn't see the difference
00:46:02  <Bjarni> that depends on the judge
00:46:09  <Bjarni> besides he wrote 5 instead of 50
00:46:15  <Bjarni> if it went the other way...
00:46:26  <Bjarni> that makes a difference to the law
00:46:37  <skidd13> SmatZ: The companys may want to know what is wrong whith their system and are able to ask him.
00:47:32  <SmatZ> sometimes are things just absolutelly unsafe - using weak passwords, no ecryption at all, etc...
00:48:00  <SmatZ> like the Slovakian National security agency used some really weak passwords like "nbusr123" or so...
00:49:36  <SmatZ>
00:49:45  <SmatZ> The attackers claim that network administrators employed the username “nbusr” and password “nbusr123”
00:51:51  <SmatZ> or with Skype - the data are encrypted, but there are roughly tens or hundreds of keys (I just heard that, may be false)
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01:30:14  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:33:06  <Bjarni> talk about weak passwords. Somebody told that British Telecom once had "btc" or something like that as the password on their wifi
01:33:39  <Bjarni> so you could sit in a cafe on the other side of the street or something and browse their LAN and use their net connection
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02:59:42  <kyevan> Hmmm
03:00:06  <kyevan> Someone should set i tup so that you can rig the in-game music player controls to a real player, through dcop or something
03:01:14  <BigBB> maybe you stop the ingame player and load the mid files in the real player for full control? no, thats to easy...
03:02:13  <kyevan> BigBB: Yes, that's especialy too easy when you decide to run it in full screen.
03:02:14  <kyevan> >_>
03:02:45  <kyevan> I'm actually playing high-quality renders in vlc, but I want to play fullscreen, and if I have to be able to jump over, really can't do that.
03:03:36  <BigBB> and? you can run OTTP fullscrean and control your player (like vlc) seperatly
03:03:53  <kyevan> RIght, except, HOW DO YOU GET TO THOSE CONTROLS?
03:03:59  * kyevan rolls his eyes
03:04:48  <kyevan> Well, one way is to run on linux and run vlc with one of the crazy terminal interfaces on a terminal, and have ottd take over x, but anyway.
03:04:58  <BigBB> for me?, I use the Logitech extra media buttons, on Windows with logitech drivers and on linux with the distributation related drivers...
03:07:51  <BigBB> if you haven't media keys (and the driver for that) you can define a hot key for that ...
03:08:55  <BigBB> you must only undifine (if necessary) this combination in (e.g.) KDE.
03:09:16  <BigBB> How I say: Easy or?
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04:32:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11683 /trunk/src/win32.cpp: -Fix(r11682): win32.cpp still requires gfx.h inclusion, at least for now.
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05:17:52  <Burgundavia> just downloaded 6.0beta 2.0 deb
05:18:00  <Burgundavia> it seems the game is running a little fast
05:18:14  <Burgundavia> jets move at the speed of supersonic jets
05:31:10  <BigBB> what cluster do you use ...
05:31:30  <Burgundavia> cluster?
05:32:29  <BigBB>
05:33:15  <Burgundavia> I am running a Celeron M, if you are aksing about processor
05:33:24  <Burgundavia> I am using an old 0.5.3 save game from a windows version
05:33:31  <Burgundavia> same machine
05:34:24  <BigBB> not directly, I'm asking because you said:  it seems the game is running a little fast   jets move at the speed of supersonic jets
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05:35:54  <BigBB> the version of the savegame is irrelevant, importand is the game version which you want to play...
05:37:34  <Burgundavia> basically, it looks like the internal clock is set a little fast
05:38:14  <BigBB> don't press the fast forward button?!
05:38:48  <Burgundavia> no, this is without the fast forward button
05:39:33  <Burgundavia> hmm, I am getting a day per 2 secs
05:39:48  <BigBB> Okay, have you read the forumk sticky "What to do when you find a bug - READ" ?
05:40:05  <Burgundavia> yes, I know how to file bugs
05:40:36  <Burgundavia> I am merely asking if it is a known issue or maybe by design
05:40:48  <BigBB> for me, no
05:42:16  <Burgundavia> another topic: is there a way to turn off all servicing if you have turned off breakdowns?
05:43:33  <BigBB> that is a patch option which you can turn on ... I like human which cannot read the options...
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06:33:46  <Draakon> hello
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08:26:41  <Rubidium> Burgundavia: only the aircraft are running faster, right?
08:27:21  <Burgundavia> Rubidium: no, trains are as well
08:27:28  <Burgundavia> have aircraft speeds been increased?
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08:28:48  <Rubidium> yes; they are actually going as fast as trains now instead of 4 times slower
08:30:28  <Burgundavia> ah
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10:15:41  <Wolf01> hello
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10:19:35  <Maedhros> morning
10:21:05  <Wolf01> hi
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10:54:02  <SmatZ> hello
10:56:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11684 /trunk/src/ (66 files in 9 dirs): -Codechange: split gfx.h in a type and functional header.
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11:20:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11685 /trunk/src/ (bmp.cpp gui.h textbuf_gui.h town_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: remove a few 'useless' includes.
11:36:46  <SmatZ> does this work for you?
11:36:59  <SmatZ> it says "You are not authorised to read this forum." for me :(
11:37:33  <Maedhros> it's probably the sekrit mod forum
11:38:10  <SmatZ> this works ... maybe the post was deleted
11:38:14  <Maedhros> and no, it doesn't work for me either ;)
11:38:19  <SmatZ> :-)
11:38:51  <SmatZ> it is a "Post a picture of a bus you like!" , I received the link as a reply notification
11:39:44  <Maedhros> ah, i think someone was basically trolling in that thread, but eventually got himself banned and his posts moved to the mod forum
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12:12:23  <ln->
12:13:02  <hylje> CP rail
12:16:02  <Craterboy> Coca cola santa bus?
12:16:06  <Craterboy> *train
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12:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> oh newgrf spec is great...
12:22:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> "<operator> is a C operator related to the function of the sequence's byte value, or something vaguely related to a C operator. Or something else."
12:22:49  <Maedhros> haha
12:22:52  <Maedhros> where does it say that?
12:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause3>
12:23:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> a few lines above "strings"
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12:24:18  <Maedhros> aha, i thought it sounded like a DaleStan comment ;)
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12:45:34  <pavel1269> hi
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13:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> we really need a higher programming language for grfs...
13:02:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> this assembler stuff makes you insane...
13:04:23  <Wolf01> maybe we can code an ide which compiles the grfs in assembly but we can use symple interfaces to input the values we need
13:04:40  <Maedhros> heh, like grfmaker? ;)
13:05:14  <Wolf01> i was thinking about something like gamemaker
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13:06:35  <Wolf01> with a symple graphic editor where you can import the sprites like strips or tilesets
13:06:50  <Wolf01> cropping, offsets
13:07:22  <Wolf01> and i should try grfmaker, maybe it does this already
13:09:06  <Maedhros> i haven't actually used it before, but i think it does most of that
13:09:34  <Wolf01> yeah, seem so
13:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> i was not talking about GUI
13:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> i was talking about higher language
13:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> you know, with objects, variables, control flow etc.
13:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> and especially readable names
13:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> "Example: Something to go here" <- yeah, i love these statements
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13:31:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11686 /trunk/src/win32.cpp: -Fix (r11684): win32 compilation was broken again :)
13:44:11  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause3, xml like locomotion would help? -> tar archives with xml file and sprites, we already support that (but xml), if we can add a sort of coding to the tar files we might have 32bpp grfs
13:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> xml is not a programming language
13:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> i am talking about a programming language that compiles into NFO
13:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> not some new grf format
13:45:39  <Wolf01> i know you want a scripting like language for grf, but the problem is to rewrite completely the grf support for bot the games
13:46:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is a complete non-issue, because it will be compiled into NFO, which will again be compiled into GRF, so for the game it is completely transparent
13:46:43  <Wolf01> we will end up with grf->dll files
13:47:59  <Wolf01> so where is the problem? an ide like gamemaker: sprite editor, objects, scripts and it compiles directly to assembly
13:48:09  <Wolf01> my first suggestion
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13:48:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> language != ide, i am telling you
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13:48:54  <fjb> Moin
13:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> binary (grf) << assembler (nfo) << higher language (to be definded) << ide (what you call 'gamemaker')
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13:49:57  <Wolf01> code it in c++ and encode it in nfo
13:50:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, you write a full c++ -> nfo compiler, good luck...
13:50:52  <Wolf01> basic -> nfo
13:50:57  <Wolf01> delphi -> nfo
13:51:03  <Wolf01> jscript -> nfo
13:51:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> it should be a language specifically designed with nfo as backend in mind
13:51:16  <Wolf01> you will end up with nfo always
13:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> because you have to minimise the effort to write a compiler
13:52:20  <Sacro> whynot use lua?
13:52:35  <Wolf01> why not brainfuck?
13:52:43  <hylje> lua ~= brainfuck implied
13:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> because of the same reason why you don't use any other "established" language
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13:54:20  <Wolf01> i don't know the grf specs, but if they support scripting (written in assembly) surely there is a way to compile it... we need only the compiler
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13:55:55  <Wolf01> so the only effort is to write the compiler... the language is always the same... variables, functions, constructs
13:58:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, established languages have a way too big number of features, that you can't always turn into NFO (complexity), and NFO has some special design features that you cannot easily describe in established languages (efficiency)
13:59:38  <Wolf01> what about this: the guy who invented it frequents my ircchan, i can always ask him if is doable with less efforts
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14:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> you're coming from the wrong direction here
14:01:19  <glx> you need to understand what nfo can and cannot do first
14:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> the issue is not choosing a language and then writing the compiler, but instead learning nfo, design a compiler, and then design the language on top of it
14:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> the syntax of the language is the last thing to decide
14:04:31  <valhalla1w> how can you build a compiler without syntax?
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14:06:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11687 /trunk/src/ (core/geometry_type.hpp core/random_func.hpp stdafx.h): -Codechange: move some defines to a better place
14:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> valhallasw: the syntax is only relevant for the parser step of the compiler
14:08:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> after that, you have a generic tree structure, which you do your analysis on
14:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> the parser step is completely exchangable
14:08:58  <valhallasw> yes, but the parse tree and syntax are not completely unlinked
14:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, that's why you design the syntax after what your parse tree ends up like
14:09:39  <valhallasw> ok, sounds reasonable
14:11:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> syntax is mainly about stuff like wether you decide blocks upon indentation (python style), brackets (c style) or begin/end (pascal style)
14:12:22  <valhallasw> and what the names for your constructs are
14:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> or wether the assignment operator looks like "=" (c style) or ":=" (pascal style)
14:12:58  <blathijs> It might be feasible to use a C-style syntax for compiling to nfo, that just doesn't support all C features
14:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> the fact that you need an assignment operator will result from the fact that you have an assignment node in the parse tree
14:13:21  <valhallasw> yeah
14:13:29  <valhallasw> you could as well make it <- if you want ;)
14:13:38  <valhallasw> would not even be too bad... hmm
14:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, VHDL style
14:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> but again, this is completely irrelevant
14:14:38  <valhallasw> yeah, sorry for the interruption :P
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15:13:35  <Wolf01> yeah, i made the first steam maglev
15:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i can't figure out how to make an articulated vehicle from these specs...
15:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> this callback stuff somehow eludes me...
15:18:06  <Maedhros> yeah, it only started to make sense to me when i started coding nfo
15:18:18  <Maedhros> surprisingly, adding the support for it to openttd didn't help me that much
15:20:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> the documentation is really not that great
15:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> (and this is a serious understatement)
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15:44:32  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause3, talking with that friend of mine, he suggested to try bison
15:44:49  <Wolf01> but not the glue
15:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> again, that suggestion is as silly as any other language...
15:46:16  <Wolf01> so, what do you want? i can't understand
15:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> higher languages are all the same, you can list two dozen names here, it does not really make a difference
15:47:24  <Wolf01> bison is a compiler
15:47:27  <pavel1269> :)
15:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> the problems are a) understanding NFO to understand what features the higher language needs
15:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> and b) deciding how higher language features can easily be transformed into NFO statements
15:49:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> the actual compiler won't have too many lines of codes, but there are a lot of design decisions that you can make wrong
15:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> <Wolf01> bison is a compiler <- from where to where?
15:50:30  <Wolf01> ok, a parser
15:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> then my statement still holds... the parser is really irrelevant
15:51:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> we need to design the compiler backwards
15:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> start from NFO, make a strict tree representation of NFO, make abstractions on that tree representation, define syntax for the abstract tree representation
15:52:49  <Wolf01> that is why i suggested an ide (with compiler).. you can decide all the possible values, if i'm making a train engine, all the ship functions are grayed and so on, so i can't insert by hand the code to replace a ship with a train engine, the other values will be automatically converted to hex, like the ID, strings etc
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15:54:19  <Draakon> hello guys
15:54:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> that still does not allow you imperative-style definition of reusable functions and callbacks
15:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> or inheritance relation
15:55:39  <Wolf01> why not?
15:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> we are not getting further in this discussion unless we find a common base, you are living in a completely different world than i am
15:58:12  <Draakon> what patches you guys suggest do add more challange to game?
15:58:46  <kyevan> Write a quick hack to turn off trains :P
15:58:56  <pavel1269> :))
15:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> kyevan: that is a config setting
15:59:09  <pavel1269> max_trains: 0?
15:59:17  <kyevan> Eddi|zuHause3: Really? I only see one to turn it off for AIs
15:59:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, something like that
15:59:32  <Draakon> lol truck only game? nah i want trains
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16:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> kyevan: in .cfg file, max_trains, max_roadveh, max_aircraft etc.
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16:02:44  <pavel1269> Draakon: hilly terrain? dissalow for youselves terraform?
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16:06:18  <qball> can I autoreplace wagons
16:06:32  <pavel1269> yes
16:07:04  <qball> how
16:07:08  <qball> running the beta
16:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> click on the button that says "engines", then you can select "wagons"
16:07:26  <Draakon> you know how do autoreplace ttrains?
16:07:31  <Draakon> trains*
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16:07:44  <qball> yes
16:08:04  <qball> I see it
16:08:05  <Draakon> there should be a button: Repleacing: Trains
16:08:07  <Draakon> click that
16:08:13  <Draakon> and then you see wagons list
16:08:18  <qball> no directly clear
16:08:24  <qball> you can click it
16:08:26  <pavel1269> "Replacing: Engines" click "Replacing: Cars"
16:08:28  <qball> expected a dropdown
16:08:40  <qball> I assume it auto-refits?
16:08:50  <Draakon> yes
16:08:59  <qball> nice
16:09:02  <qball> I love the beta
16:09:04  <Osai> Hi all
16:09:07  <pavel1269> heh
16:09:08  <pavel1269> use NB
16:09:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> even better, it does not replace, if it cannot find a refit option
16:09:15  <qball> the cross diagonal lines
16:09:15  <Draakon> Hi Osai
16:09:25  <pavel1269> hi Osai
16:09:31  <qball> now to replace 1200 wagons
16:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> and make sure to turn "auto remove wagons" on, if the new wagons are longer than the old ones
16:10:12  <qball> same length
16:10:28  <qball> any new news on pbs?
16:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> nope
16:11:22  <Draakon> yes there is: it will be ready when it will be
16:11:23  <Draakon> :P
16:11:33  <qball> that was said 3 years ago :D
16:11:37  <qball> but I am patient
16:11:46  <qball> I loved the pbs patch
16:12:10  <Draakon> who created yapf anyway?
16:12:32  <qball> the yapf creater wrote yapf partially to add pbs
16:12:37  <qball> there was a patch before
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16:15:38  <kyevan> Hmm, I have a crazy idea.
16:16:01  <kyevan> Mixing together TTD and SimCity. In multiplayer.
16:16:17  <kyevan> So you have some players mayoring, others trying to connect things.
16:16:53  <kyevan> And of course, no one wants smelly trains and ugly noisy trucks in THEIR town, thank you very much!
16:18:59  <qball> don't we all?
16:19:31  <Draakon> kyevan: impossibile
16:19:53  <kyevan> Draakon: How is that impossible?
16:20:04  <Draakon> legal issues
16:20:12  <kyevan> I mean, sure, it would have to be rewritten from scratch to work right, but.
16:20:16  <kyevan> Draakon: Um, wha?
16:20:36  <kyevan> What legal issues exist with creating a new game that mixes concepts from two older ones?
16:20:57  <qball> don't call it ttdsim
16:20:57  <Draakon> you cant mix ttd and simcity together because (il)legal issues
16:21:05  <kyevan> None whatsoever, otherwise the entire game industry would not exist anymore, save one or two big issues.
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16:21:11  <kyevan> Draakon: What issues would those be?
16:21:15  <fjb> Moin
16:21:20  <kyevan> I can write whatever the hell code I want!
16:21:37  <Draakon> oeh you dont get it
16:21:49  <kyevan> Draakon: No, I don't.
16:21:56  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
16:21:56  <fjb> !logs
16:21:59  <kyevan> Because you're not making any sense, at all.
16:22:01  <Draakon> well i dont have time too
16:23:03  <kyevan> Look, if creating a new game (Not enhancing an old one, where there might be issues, I admit) from two concepts is illegal... How come id and infocom haven't sued the hell out of Valve?
16:23:30  <kyevan> GASP! It's a mix of adventure games (like the old Infocom adventures) and shooters (like Wolf3d, Doom, and Quake)! ILLEGAL!
16:23:38  <kyevan> That's.... exactly what you said :P
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16:28:12  <qball> hmmm wagons from coal trains aren't replaced...
16:28:59  <qball> but I have coal trains pulling that wagon
16:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> <kyevan> And of course, no one wants smelly trains and ugly noisy trucks in THEIR town, thank you very much! <- when they built the tram here (late 19th century), it was originally a horse tram, but when they wanted to put up catenary, they got huge resistance by the physics institute of the university, because it would interfere with their fine electric instruments
16:30:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> that resistance went on for over 10 years, then they decided to have the trams run with battery powers in that region, and put catenary up everywhere else
16:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> but the other tram company in the city was allowed to put up catenary much earlier, because it did not pass that region
16:33:54  <qball> everybody loves tinfoil cap
16:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> it is to mention that this was the first completely electric tram system in europe
16:37:14  <hylje> heres new trams to be bought
16:37:22  <hylje> for a new line
16:37:30  <hylje> and to replace the oldest series
16:38:41  <kyevan> Can anyone figure out what 'legal issues' Draakon was talking about?
16:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> Can anyone figure out what [...] Draakon was talking about?
16:39:12  <Draakon> kyevan: you cant use Sim word in your game
16:39:19  <kyevan> Oh, sure.
16:39:31  <Draakon> and use the same concept as SimCity has
16:39:34  <kyevan> That's a trademark thing, though.
16:39:42  <hylje> SimTTD
16:39:49  <kyevan> Draakon: Concepts can be neither copyright or trademarked.
16:40:08  <hylje> patents do not cover concepts either, rather implementations
16:40:28  <kyevan> Patented, maybe, but I refuse to recognize software patents as covering concepts.
16:40:44  *** joosa_ [] has joined #openttd
16:40:50  <kyevan> (Since that's not how patents work)
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16:41:25  <kyevan> So, OK.
16:41:37  <kyevan> I can't call it SimWhatever, because of trademark issues.
16:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> there are no software patents
16:41:43  <kyevan> I never said I was going to.
16:41:52  <kyevan> Eddi|zuHause3: In the US, there are.
16:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> and who here is in the US?
16:42:15  <kyevan> Me.
16:42:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> poor you ;)
16:42:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, you are a minority ;)
16:43:25  <kyevan> Right, but even in zanyland, Draakon's words made no sense.
16:43:46  <kyevan> So, I can't figure out what he meant, beyond the fairly obvious trademark issues
16:43:50  <qball> oeps, build a 13mil tunnel
16:45:42  <Draakon> lets stop talking about this? kyevan, if you one go ahead make that game
16:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> qball: afaik tunnel costs get capped at 800 Mrd. (not sure if £)
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16:54:36  <qball> I had enough cash
16:54:43  <qball> but a box "are you sure" for cost above 1 mil
16:54:46  <qball> would be an idea
16:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> why?
16:55:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can use shift to get the cost in advance
16:55:14  <qball> well I clicked wrong now
16:55:26  <qball> just one square
16:55:40  <qball> medication -> shaking hands
16:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> so that's what this is called now :p
16:56:11  <qball> ha ha ha, not funny
16:56:14  <qball> ass
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16:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway... kolourpaint does not handle palettes correctly...
17:06:30  *** Draakon [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox]]
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17:29:05  <Wolf01> uh, we need steam powered road vehicles
17:29:10  <Wolf01>
17:29:34  <pavel1269> and eletric too right? :)
17:30:08  <Wolf01> :)
17:31:41  <Wolf01> i think is possible to have trolley buses, just make trams looking like buses :D
17:31:53  <Wolf01> but the smoke is slightly different
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18:09:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: egladil * r11688 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1581]: Compilation was broken on OS X again.
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19:23:13  <dihedral> hello
19:25:07  <pavel1269> hi
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19:36:04  <dihedral> company password issue also with windows vista -> windows xp
19:37:10  <dihedral> vista is on core 2 duo, xp is on p4
19:37:17  <dihedral> Rubidium ^
19:37:24  <dihedral> have a nice evening - i got to run :-)
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20:00:16  <hylje> regarding those trolleys
20:00:17  <hylje>
20:01:41  <kyevan> Hmm.
20:02:21  <kyevan> I wonder how much rethinking it would take to adapt TTD to an SC4 like landscape system (Not coding, I can already tell you that, a complete rewrite)
20:05:07  <hylje> do you mean arbitrary elevation?
20:05:21  <hylje> ive seen (and done) some plain silly stuff done with them elevation
20:05:26  <hylje> and absolutely silly tunnels
20:05:37  <valhallasw> is that... really *one* bus?
20:05:48  <hylje> yes
20:05:58  <valhallasw> interesting
20:06:14  <hylje> you see only the back one is powered
20:06:19  <valhallasw> yeah
20:06:31  <pavel1269> wow
20:06:53  <hylje> though it could be some soviet sillyness
20:09:16  <kyevan> Hylje: Arbetrary elevation, arbetrary slants, etc, yes.
20:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not a big fan of trolley busses
20:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i'm also not a big fan of the sc4 landscape handling
20:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> you don't have enough control over what you do
20:10:16  <hylje> them are planning trollbusses here
20:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> they planned trolleybusses here about 40 years ago
20:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> they even got delivered material and rolling stock
20:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> but then decided to extend the tram line instead
20:12:37  <kyevan> Eddi|zuHause3: Well, the editor's meh.
20:12:40  <kyevan> But the idea is sound.
20:13:50  *** thomas001 [] has joined #openttd
20:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> finer slopes would be nice, but when you go near arbitrary, you cannot handle that with a sprite based system
20:14:42  <hylje> hence a 3d map
20:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> trying to introduce a 3d graphics engine is not a sound idea
20:16:18  <thomas001> hi,i don't understand something about good waiting at stations. are goods waiting too long being dropped? is that why a coal mine has only ~50% transported coal when using long trains which are less frequent?
20:16:34  <SmatZ> thomas001: yes
20:16:49  <SmatZ> also depends at your cargo rating
20:17:12  <thomas001> so is it better to use shorter and more trains? or even to have always one train waiting at the station?
20:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> 50% transported means you have an average rating of 50% service at the station
20:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you have an average rating of 50%, the mine will produce around 50% of its maximum capacity
20:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> this has nothing to do with cargo being dropped
20:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> (although that can still happen)
20:18:52  <thomas001> so if i employ more trains,more will be produced?
20:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> rating rises when you have trains loading
20:19:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> and rating drops when you have no trains loading
20:19:12  <pavel1269> yeah, have all time there waiting vehicle
20:19:18  <pavel1269> *loading
20:19:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> through loading all the time, you can get around 75%
20:19:39  <pavel1269> 80 :)
20:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> a statue adds 10% permanently
20:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> the rest you have to do with advertising
20:20:16  <qball> hmm this game is getting boring, got 403 million pounds, and it's 1971..
20:20:23  <thomas001> advertising a coal mine?
20:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, in the town
20:21:22  <thomas001> hmm,and when are goods dropped?
20:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> advertising temporarily increases all your station ratings in this town
20:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> that takes quite a while
20:23:31  <thomas001> is the rate based on loading calculated on a per month basis or is it a more difficult calculation?
20:24:36  <pavel1269> thomas001:
20:24:48  <thomas001> thx
20:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%2010.%20Jan%201930.png <- i can't get this spacing right... what am i doing wrong?
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20:32:06  <kyevan> Eddi|zuHause3: Trying to introduce a 3d graphics engine would be crazy
20:32:28  <kyevan> Hence why I mentioned if you wanted to impliment it, you would probably have to rewrite it from scratch >_>
20:32:53  <thomas001> full 3d or mixed 2d/3d?
20:35:16  <kyevan> I dunno. It's just a random idea.
20:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> currently, slopes are always 8 pixels, i would like if they could be 4, 12 and possibly 16 pixels
20:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> 4px slopes should be quite easily handled by trains, 8 pixels will get most engines in trouble
20:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> tunnel entrances would need at least a 12px slope
20:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> catenary elevation is 11px i think
20:47:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> similarily, a bridge over a rail must be at least 12px higher
20:48:07  <kyevan> Don't mesure in px
20:48:11  <kyevan> It doesn't make sense.
20:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> in what should i measure, you suggest?
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20:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> that word order sounds awful...
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20:49:57  <kyevan> I dunno. Scaled units of some sort?
20:50:34  <kyevan> px mesures display things, so.
20:52:46  <kyevan> One of the current hight changes, let's define as 16 height units/
20:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> but it's 8 height units
20:53:01  <kyevan> Build from that.
20:53:05  <kyevan>  * then
20:53:11  <kyevan> er, 8, then
20:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> and 1 height unit = 1 pixel
20:53:31  <kyevan> I don't care, I was just assigning it a nice, power-of-two nimber
20:53:33  <kyevan> Eddi|zuHause3: No.
20:53:37  <kyevan> That CAN'T work
20:53:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> i really have no idea what your problem ist
20:53:53  <kyevan> Pixels are little dots on the screen
20:54:03  <kyevan> You can mesure in two directions with them.
20:54:17  <kyevan> Up in an isometric rendering, isn't one of the,
20:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> i define it, i can do it, see?
20:55:04  <kyevan> es
20:55:07  <kyevan> *Besides
20:55:12  <kyevan> Zoom levels :P
20:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> there are no zoom levels
20:55:53  * kyevan pops open ottd and scrolls his mouse wheel up and down
20:55:57  <kyevan> Yes, yes there are
20:56:09  <kyevan> And any new engine would need zooming too
20:56:23  <kyevan> Because, let's face it, you need to be able to get an overview at some points and detail at others
20:56:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> now go and find those zoom levels in the .grf files
20:56:53  <kyevan> It's done in the engine, I know
20:57:09  <kyevan> But still.
20:57:23  <kyevan> Anyway, family christmas party, cyall later :)
20:57:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> err... you're one day early
21:02:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11689 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: compilation error and most of warnings for gcc 4.3
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21:12:38  <thomas001> hmm i want to transport passenger by ship to a airport and from the airport to another town,is that possible?
21:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, partly
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21:13:40  <thomas001> which part is possible and how?
21:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> the airport must accept passengers and mail from the incoming planes, you cannot transfer passengers both ways
21:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> the ferry needs "transfer and leave empty" orders at the airport
21:15:06  <thomas001> so i can't tell the ferry only to take the passengers from the other town?
21:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, that is the part that does not work
21:15:41  <thomas001> hmm sounds like a nice feature to be implemented by someone?
21:16:10  * Eddi|zuHause3 puts thomas001 on top of the list of volunteers
21:16:49  <thomas001> yes i was sure about the top of that list ;)
21:17:07  <thomas001> but not before end of january
21:17:35  <thomas001> but you think it whould be a nice thing to work on?
21:28:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it needs to be a quite complex work, because it'll need proper passenger destinations, and different settings for passenger and cargo destinations, to turn it off
21:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> also, you need a good algorithm to decide if a passenger takes train A, that is currently waiting, or train B that will be arriving shortly, but is much faster
21:29:50  <thomas001> does the game keep track where the passengers came from?
21:29:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes
21:30:08  <thomas001> so for the problem some kind of source routing whould perhaps work too?
21:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's in cargo packets
21:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, if you can decide that a passenger will not go on a train that goes where he just came from
21:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> but then you also have to store all intermediate steps
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21:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> like, if you have 3 airports in the middle of nowhere, passengers could get stuck in planes circling between the two he did not come from
21:32:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> instead of hopping on a transfer bus
21:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> into the city
21:32:32  <thomas001> you could configure the plains not to pick up certain passengers perhaps
21:32:38  <thomas001> *planes ;)
21:32:55  <thomas001> damn...aircraft :D
21:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> it should not involve too much player interaction
21:33:08  <thomas001> they should really teach english at university ^^
21:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> reminds me of hot shots (2?)
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21:34:10  <thomas001> is "take passengers from A to airport B,but at B don't take passengers from A back" too much?
21:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, because you also have to configure that planes between B and C don't take passengers from A
21:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> because they could go back and forth between B and C
21:35:47  <thomas001> but 3 airports in the middle of nowhere is a rather abstract example,isn't it?
21:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> and on the next level, you might want to allow passengers from A to travel from B to C, because there is no direct flight
21:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> in reality, all airports are in the middle of nowhere
21:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> airports in the middle of a city are really rare
21:37:57  <thomas001> hmm so you think you need to track the visited stations and disallow loops?
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22:03:12  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
22:03:46  <ln-> 00:03 -!- Irssi: Uptime: 368d 2h 25m 53s
22:04:07  <Bjarni> ahh
22:04:11  <Bjarni> home sweet home
22:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: you missed it :p
22:06:45  * Bjarni fines ln- for excessive power usage for a geek purpose
22:07:22  *** Zaviori [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:07:28  <Bjarni> if you really have to do something that pollutes then you should really have to do so
22:07:43  <Bjarni> having an uptime doesn't count as "needed"
22:08:02  * Sacro is now playing: Britney Spears - Piece Of Me (.977 The Hitz Channel)
22:08:14  <SmatZ> having record uptime is really important for some people, I would celebrated 1 year uptime a lot too
22:08:31  <SmatZ> just got 500 hours a while ago :)
22:09:04  <SmatZ> :)
22:09:54  <Bjarni> hehe
22:09:59  <Bjarni> photoshop :P
22:10:21  <SmatZ> no :)
22:10:29  <Bjarni> 1 year uptime would be great... if it's really needed like a server
22:10:48  <Bjarni> but I fail to see why ln- would have to have the computer turned on all the time
22:11:21  <valhallasw> Bjarni: generally my server has uptimes up to a year
22:11:30  <valhallasw> which is the point I decide to do a kernel upgrade etc
22:11:59  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
22:12:21  * Bjarni gives Sacro an official warning
22:12:31  <valhallasw>  23:12:22 up 218 days,  8:33,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
22:12:42  <SmatZ> nice load :-P
22:12:46  <valhallasw> 23:12 Irssi uptime: 26d 2h 45m 32s <-- irssi crashes every now-and-then
22:12:46  * Sacro gives Bjarni an official hug
22:13:05  <Bjarni> Sacro: Britney Spears..... need I say more
22:13:10  *** Zavior [] has joined #openttd
22:13:20  <Bjarni> you need to actually listen to something worth listening to
22:13:29  <Bjarni> like engine noise
22:15:49  * valhallasw listens to Bjarni
22:17:16  <SpComb> 00:17 Irssi uptime: 239d 13h 15m 58s
22:17:31  <SpComb> you need to be careful not to crash it
22:21:15  <Rubidium> :O give me some tips ;)
22:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> my computer occasionally crashes, and i have no real idea why
22:23:06  <SpComb> Rubidium: never do anything other than chat with it
22:23:31  <SpComb> I've had it crash on me sontimes if I do weird things with split windows or such
22:28:20  * Sacro whistles
22:32:11  <Rubidium> for me it crashes when my internet connection drops, but randomly and unpredictably
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22:57:23  <Kenjuudo> hi :)
22:57:31  <Kenjuudo> <- another train freak :)
23:03:18  *** peterbrett [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:09:38  <qball> hmm not bad, almost 1.000.000 pounds/train average.. (total 105.000.000 a year.)
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23:22:14  <Bjarni> Kenjuudo: I have seen plenty of your kind today
23:22:39  <Kenjuudo> :)
23:22:41  <Gonozal_VIII> his kind?
23:22:46  <Kenjuudo> train freaks :)
23:22:50  <Gonozal_VIII> aah
23:23:09  <Bjarni> I was out in the real world today
23:23:10  <Bjarni> driving
23:23:11  <Kenjuudo> i just gotta say: thumbs up for openttd !! :)
23:23:18  <Kenjuudo> best thing that ever happened to open source ;)
23:24:38  <Bjarni> Kenjuudo: btw how would you define a train freak? :)
23:25:56  <Kenjuudo> a freak that likes trains ^^
23:26:07  <Bjarni> hehe
23:26:10  <Kenjuudo> ;)
23:26:17  <Bjarni> that's not really what I meant XD
23:26:27  <Kenjuudo> what did you mean then :)
23:26:38  <Bjarni> I mean... what actions would classify a person to be a train freak?
23:27:31  *** Gonozal_VIII [] has quit [Quit: Trillian (]
23:27:42  <Kenjuudo> ok, here comes the explanation :) a train freak is one that plays openttd instead of world of warcraft and counterstrike ^^
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23:28:13  <Bjarni> lol
23:28:34  <Kenjuudo> bjarni do you know where i can find the grf packages?
23:28:35  <Bjarni> but that's a virtual train freak
23:28:50  <Kenjuudo> yeah, are you meaning the rl ones? :)
23:28:52  <Bjarni>
23:28:53  <Gonozal_VIII> grfcrawler
23:28:59  <Kenjuudo> thanks
23:29:15  <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: mine is clickable :P
23:29:33  <Bjarni>  <Kenjuudo> yeah, are you meaning the rl ones? :) <--- yeah... how would you define a real life train freak?
23:30:25  <Kenjuudo> a guy taking his pants off in a fully occupied car and drooling on the poodle of a classy woman ;P
23:30:51  <Bjarni> ???
23:31:01  <Bjarni> ok you really are a freak
23:31:19  <Kenjuudo> thanks... i guess i didn't know what you were looking for... :)
23:31:25  <Gonozal_VIII> don't get the pc wet
23:32:33  <Bjarni> a computer train freak uses his computer to play train games... but how would you define a real life train freak?
23:32:53  <Bjarni> this is a question for everybody :)
23:32:57  <Gonozal_VIII> uses a train to play computer games
23:33:09  <Bjarni> ok...
23:33:24  <Bjarni> reminds me of the play station gaming in a driving train
23:33:52  <Bjarni> but I guess that was a freak thing to do... only happened once
23:33:58  <Gonozal_VIII> i often play openttd on the train :-)
23:34:12  <Bjarni> you see... not only did it demand a playstation, it also needed a TV
23:34:53  <Gonozal_VIII> why not?
23:35:12  <Gonozal_VIII> small tv...
23:35:22  <Bjarni> they didn't use a small TV XD
23:35:28  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
23:36:30  <Bjarni> hmm... google earth can sometimes show interesting stuff
23:37:01  <Gonozal_VIII> so you think the outside world is sometimes interesting?
23:37:13  *** peterbrett [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:37:14  <Bjarni> right now I found a parked locomotive in the no parking zone (actually the sign says that the driver should stop in a place to ensure the crossing is passable)
23:37:35  <Bjarni>  <Gonozal_VIII> so you think the outside world is sometimes interesting? <-- I was in the outside world all day
23:37:38  <Bjarni> today
23:37:39  <Gonozal_VIII> how do you know it's parking?
23:38:13  <Bjarni> it's a track for parking locomotives
23:38:17  <Sacro> Gonozal_VIII: he's been watching it for 2 hours
23:38:23  <Bjarni> lol
23:38:56  <Bjarni> Sacro: that's likely one of your best replies ever :D
23:39:16  <Sacro> well it is christmas
23:39:41  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm not for you yet
23:39:59  <Bjarni> let me put it this way: if it isn't parking then it would drive to a location where it blocks the other crossing
23:40:13  <Bjarni> either way it's not doing something really clever
23:40:40  <Gonozal_VIII> maybe it's driving the other way?
23:41:24  <Bjarni> then it would get out after parking in a crossing
23:41:37  <Bjarni> you see... this is a siding
23:42:09  <Bjarni> anyway
23:42:18  <Bjarni> did anything interesting happening to you today?
23:42:21  <Gonozal_VIII> well... the siding is of no use if there is no possible situation where a locomotive can be there
23:42:41  <Bjarni> ONE locomotive can be there
23:42:45  <Bjarni> but 3 can't :P
23:43:20  <Gonozal_VIII> ah now i understand
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23:45:52  <Bjarni> bye...
23:46:01  *** Gonozal_VIII [] has joined #openttd
23:46:14  <Bjarni> hello Gonozal_VIII
23:46:20  <Bjarni> haven't I seen you before?
23:46:31  <Kenjuudo> bjarni, are you one of the devs of openttd?
23:46:37  <Gonozal_VIII> :S did i have a different nick before?
23:46:58  <Bjarni> yeah
23:47:07  <Bjarni> you were named Gonozal_VIIII
23:47:19  <Sacro> Bjarni: IX
23:47:21  <Kenjuudo> bjarni: are you sure it's the same guy?
23:47:21  <Sacro> you fail at roman
23:47:26  <Kenjuudo> did you do a dns lookup?
23:47:48  <Gonozal_VIII> some clocks use IIII
23:47:55  <Bjarni> Sacro: that was on purpose
23:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> Sacro: it was actually very common to write IIII, the substraction rule was not widely used in rome
23:48:07  <Bjarni> now would have been a great time to reply in Latin
23:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> quod lumen, lumen
23:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> alter skatspruch
23:48:37  <Bjarni> I meant a real reply
23:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> "was licht, licht"
23:48:53  <Bjarni> telling Sacro that I know what I'm doing
23:49:06  <Bjarni> hmm
23:49:38  <Bjarni> no. Babelfish can't handle Latin :(
23:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> (you can't understand that joke if you aren't familiar with german dialects)
23:50:01  <Sacro> Danish eunt domus
23:50:19  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: first you speak garbage and then you blame it on the Germans :P
23:50:31  <Bjarni> Sacro: nice try :P
23:50:39  <Sacro> Bjarni: i got 2 of the words right
23:51:01  <Gonozal_VIII> "wos liegt des pickt"
23:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, the joke is that the skat rule says "was liegt, liegt" (when the card hits the table, you cannot take it back), latin "lumen" means "licht" (light, as in shining), but in some german dialects, "liegt" gets spoken like "licht"
23:53:51  <Gonozal_VIII> my line has the same meaning
23:54:02  <Gonozal_VIII> austrian dialect :-)
23:55:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> (a similar play on dialect we recently had with "griechen", "kriechen" and "kriegen")
23:55:43  <Gonozal_VIII> (not plural of war)
23:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> ("wenn Griechen ÃŒber Griechen kriechen, kriegen Griechen kleine Griechen")

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