Log for #openttd on 30th March 2008:
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00:10:01  <Mirrakor> can I sell an old train?
00:10:49  <jez9999> no
00:10:57  <jez9999> you have to keep them around forever and put them in a museum
00:11:18  <Mirrakor> can I at least make money from the exhibition? :P :D
00:11:29  <Mirrakor> no - seriously, how can I sell them?
00:11:49  <jez9999> send them to the depot and... sell them?
00:12:26  <Mirrakor> hm.. I thought I send it to the depot.. - but thanks :)
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00:31:33  <bt> 'allo
00:32:03  <bt> anyone help with a question?
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00:32:53  <Belugas> i'm sorry to say, but how can anyone help if no one knows the question???
00:33:24  <Belugas> lay down the question.  if anyne can help, you'll know
00:33:31  <bt> okay....
00:34:17  <bt> i'm a couple of hundred years into a game and helicopters have disappeared (i can't build them) is there any way (through patches or the like) that I can bring them back?
00:34:26  <bt> so i can build them
00:35:09  <Belugas> there is no way to bring them back
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00:35:23  <Belugas> their life span has expired
00:35:37  <Belugas> not that i know of, anyway
00:35:54  <Belugas> unless you create or find a grf that allows it, of course
00:36:34  <bt> hmmm - are there any really good grf creation guides?  I can't seem to find any
00:37:04  <Ammller> patch setting "vehicels don't expire"?
00:37:25  <Belugas> there is such a patch???
00:37:27  <Belugas> man...
00:37:32  <Ammller> :-)
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00:37:37  <Ammller> you should know it :P
00:38:46  <Ammller>
00:39:32  <Belugas> why should i know everything on this game???
00:41:03  <bt> should this work if the vehicle has already expired?  I've enabled it now, but still can't see heli's in my build options.....
00:41:21  <Belugas> that's waht i wonder too...
00:41:29  <glx> try reset_engines in the console after modifying the setting
00:41:30  <Ammller> hmm, there is a console command reset_vehicels
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00:45:24  <bt> super duper - the command is resetengines - helichoppers are back!
00:46:06  <bt> thanks for your help
00:46:40  <bt> that will keep me up til silly o'clock now!
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01:08:32  <jez9999> hmm
01:08:46  <jez9999> what's the norm when posting a binary version of openttd with a patch applied?
01:08:51  <jez9999> do you include any support files?
01:09:00  <Sacro> jez9999: some do, some don't
01:09:18  <Sacro> depends if it needs anything, or if you can jsut dump the binary over a normal build
01:09:30  <jez9999> it's annoying; i've just got a kickass train network setup with the help of the copy/paste patch...
01:09:48  <jez9999> then i upgraded it all to monorail in 5 mins using another version with my auto vehicle convert patch applied
01:09:57  <jez9999> but i cant go back and play in the copypaste version as it's older :-)
01:10:04  <jez9999> damn these things just need to all be checked into trunk
01:13:59  <Sacro> 			for(i = 0; i = (data.Length - 2 ); i++)
01:13:59  <Sacro> 				for(j = 0; j = (data.Length - 1); j++)
01:13:59  <Sacro> 					for(k = i; k = j; k++)
01:14:26  <Belugas> lol
01:14:32  <Sacro> nothing like brute forcing
01:16:02  <Sacro> this algoritm is going to be quite inefficient
01:19:54  <Sacro> except it doesn't work D:
01:20:43  <Sacro> oh yes
01:20:46  <Sacro> != :P
01:21:00  <jez9999> it's troublesome if good patches arent checked in because they work with different builds of openttd :-\
01:21:06  <jez9999> which means you often cant use several together
01:21:15  <Mirrakor> damn this summertime..
01:21:20  <jez9999> nor are the savegames usually compatible
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01:23:58  <Sacro> oh crap
01:24:02  <Sacro> its 3:30 am now D:
01:24:28  <Sacro> no...
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05:55:21  *** mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
05:55:21  *** mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
05:55:21  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
05:55:24  *** mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
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07:29:45  <ln> dst
07:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> where?
07:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> <- this is interesting ;)
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07:45:08  <Tefad> dst is sooo lame
07:45:32  <Tefad> it makes absolutely no sense other than to be a mind game.
07:45:50  <Tefad> why change the clock instead of your own hours of operation
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07:54:27  <Alberth> Everybody would have to print new cards when their open/closed, you'd need to buy a new book with bus/train schedules, etc
07:54:44  <Tefad> their what?
07:55:48  <Alberth> I knew something was wrong with it, but couldn't figure it out, plz s/their/they are/
07:56:09  * Tefad nods
07:56:39  <Tefad> i think in the US, we're in DST more than standard time
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08:01:00  <Rubidium> Tefad: except in Arizona
08:01:16  <Tefad> until recently in parts of indiana too eh?
08:01:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> Rubidium: except the Navajo territority
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08:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> # Niemand, niemand kanns dir, kanns dir sagen, sagen
08:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> # Keiner, keiner kennt die Antwort, die Antwort
08:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> # Auf alle, alle deine deine Fragen, Fragen
08:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> # Du mußt, du mußt nur verstehen, verstehen
08:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> # Wir ernten, ernten was wir, was wir sÀen, sÀen
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08:39:40  <Wolf01> hello
08:40:45  <yorick> hello
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09:59:55  <jez9999> i don't know if it's just a problem with my build, but is there a bug in recent builds whereby the water animations aren't working?
10:01:02  <Wolf01> full animation disables?
10:01:05  <Wolf01> *d
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10:04:10  <dih> ladies
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10:19:27  <yorick> hello dih
10:20:05  <dih> hey
10:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> jez9999: using 32bpp blitter without palette animation?
10:20:54  <jez9999> how does that hapen?
10:20:56  <jez9999> happen?
10:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> there's a setting in the cfg
10:21:16  <yorick> or have you disabled animation?
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10:22:14  * dih has lamb and mint sauce and roast veggies
10:24:17  <yorick> dih, TB still felt ill, so kicking me helped nothing :)
10:25:41  <dih> he feels better today :-)
10:25:50  <yorick> he does?
10:25:59  <yorick> I haven't spoke to him
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10:50:33  <jez9999> disbaled animation
10:50:42  <jez9999> would that be somewhere in the patches list?
10:50:46  <jez9999> or is it set at compile time?
10:54:42  <peter1138> it's on the 'spanner' menu
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10:58:29  * dih found cathedral cheddar in germany
11:01:21  <Patrick`> yeah, but it's such a dull cheese
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11:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> what does cheddar have to do with germany?
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11:42:57  <Volley> just found and tried the copy&paste patch for 0.6.0-rc1 ... coool stuff! doesn't handle signals 100% correctly, but still ...
11:43:16  <mrfrenzy> it's really nice yes ;)
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11:50:33  <jez9999> LOL
11:50:37  <jez9999> 'full animation' was unchecked
11:50:59  <jez9999> why the heck do we have that option in such a prominent part of the GUI?  It should be hidden somewhere so you dont accidentally uncheck it
11:51:07  <Rubidium> wasn't that said about 100 minutes ago?
11:51:32  <Gekz> yes
11:51:33  <Gekz> yes it was
11:51:34  <Gekz> lol
11:51:41  <Gekz> like 10 lines ago
11:51:44  <Mirrakor> what happens if my vehicle gets to old?
11:51:47  <Yexo> since when 1hour == 100 minutes?
11:51:55  <Prof_Frink> Mirrakor: It breaks down a lot
11:52:05  <Prof_Frink> If breakdowns are disabled, nothing.
11:52:47  <Rubidium> Yexo: since 13:51-12:00 => 1:51 => 111 minutes, so I just rounded it down.
11:53:26  <Yexo> ok, I thought you were referring to his last line about it
11:53:32  <Mirrakor> btw. I've got a a>b>c>depot>a>b>c>depot... circle, but my cars still break down frequently..
11:53:46  <Yexo> [12:51] <jez9999> disbaled animation
11:53:46  <Yexo> [12:51]<jez9999> would that be somewhere in the patches list?
11:53:53  <Volley> we need to add to the irc guidelines not to round 111 minutes down to 100 minutes! this channel is about precision!
11:54:27  <Rubidium> Yexo: jez started about it at 11:59 and on 12:00 the answer was given, only jez found it out himself on 12:51
11:54:29  <Yexo> 13:51-12:51 = 1:00 (not 100min) :P but let's stop this now
11:54:42  <Yexo> I know, sorry
11:56:35  <Yexo> Mirrakor, are you're trains old?
11:56:36  <Prof_Frink> New IRC rule: All timestamps should be seconds since the epoch.
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11:57:22  <Mirrakor> yeah
11:57:31  <Mirrakor> Yexo: nope, my busses
11:57:50  <Mirrakor> train is getting old too
11:58:42  <Yexo> Mirrakor: How old are your busses then? Because if they are too old servicing won't help much.
11:59:02  <Mirrakor> Well.. the oldest one is 17(12)
11:59:44  <Yexo> Just put it on autoreplace :P
11:59:54  <Yexo> *autorenew
11:59:58  <Mirrakor> how?
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12:00:20  <Mirrakor> all back to the depot and replace?
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12:00:39  <Yexo> open busses window (truck button in main menu)
12:00:53  <Yexo> sorry, forget that
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12:00:57  <Yexo> that's for autoreplace
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12:01:04  <Yexo> open the patches window
12:01:34  <Yexo> under vehicles
12:01:49  <Yexo> activate "autorenew vehicle when it gets old"
12:01:59  <Mirrakor> ok, will it also works afterwars?
12:02:06  <Yexo> yep, I think so
12:02:06  <Mirrakor> I mean now it's much older - will it still be renewed?
12:02:41  <Yexo> every time it comes into a depot, it'll check if current age + autorenewtime (slider under that option) > max age
12:02:42  <Alberth> Mirrakor: yes
12:02:45  <Mirrakor> 200,000 is way over my current finances..
12:03:01  <Yexo> then lower that value :P
12:03:19  <Mirrakor> I just did.. but with only 26k I could only afford two new busses.. :D
12:03:39  <Mirrakor> I mean I just got myself out of a finance crises :D
12:03:48  <Mirrakor> it's hill up from now :)
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12:05:03  <Mirrakor> btw. I just noticed the bus coasts more now - how comes?
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12:05:16  <Yexo> do you have inflation turned on?
12:05:21  <Mirrakor> yes
12:05:28  <Mirrakor> but will it even out somewhen?
12:05:30  <Yexo> well, that the reason
12:05:47  <Yexo> inflation will stop after 180 years IIRC
12:06:41  <mrfrenzy> why is that?
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12:07:03  <Yexo> because prices could go to high otherwise
12:07:32  <Rubidium> because the inflation on the income is less than the inflation on the prices
12:07:32  <mrfrenzy> well income should ofcourse also increase
12:07:47  <mrfrenzy> with our current monetary system I don't see a point when inflation will ever stop
12:08:15  <mrfrenzy> this is a really interesting presentation:
12:08:31  <Rubidium> with the current system you will after a few hundred years be unable to make a profit in any way
12:08:45  <Rubidium> if inflation would continue
12:09:18  <Prof_Frink> Hmm, I know that's not true for ttdpatch
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12:09:55  <Rubidium> are you 100% sure?
12:10:16  <Prof_Frink> Well, my epic-overflows game would suggest so
12:10:27  <Rubidium> after how many years was that?
12:10:46  <Prof_Frink> Many.
12:10:56  <Prof_Frink> I left it on fastforward ovenight
12:11:11  <Rubidium> and the divergence was also in the earliest versions of OTTD
12:11:19  <Rubidium> and I don't think that ludde changed it back then
12:12:08  <Prof_Frink> It's probably a saved-by-the-overflows situation then
12:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> <mrfrenzy> with our current monetary system I don't see a point when inflation will ever stop <- i can, 2^63-1
12:12:53  <jez9999> strange; i actually have a computer player in this game that is turning a decent profit
12:13:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> heretic! burn him!
12:13:19  <Prof_Frink> He's a witch!
12:15:46  <Mirrakor> what's a company building good for?
12:16:03  <Yexo> nothing
12:16:28  <Rubidium> it creates passengers
12:16:29  <Yexo> it'll grow bigger once you company grows
12:16:50  <Mirrakor> I see I've just a small farm house at the moment..
12:20:17  <Mirrakor> I've three bus stations in a city - two with about 1000 passengers waiting, and one with only about 15
12:20:40  <Mirrakor> Does it make sense that _all_ my busses circle between those three or should I just focus on the big ones?
12:21:07  <Mirrakor> will I provide the third area with more passengers if I let them unload the passangers there?
12:21:36  <Yexo> you should focus more on the bigger ones
12:21:37  <Patrick`> nope.
12:21:59  <Mirrakor> 1000 passengers means I can build a lot of busses.. or am I wrong?
12:22:10  <mrfrenzy> yes
12:22:21  <mrfrenzy> but would make more sense with a train to another town
12:22:40  <hylje> trams fuck yeah
12:22:55  <Gekz> trams are terrible
12:23:00  <Gekz> I can never see them put into a stable release
12:23:02  <hylje> with timetables so they wont clog up
12:23:19  <dih> lol
12:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> trams are much better, because they won't go haywire just because the city extended the road behind the last stop
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12:24:37  <Mirrakor> I'm getting rich - gnahhahahaha, the money flows in :D
12:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> but trams usually don't make sense without passenger destinations
12:25:49  <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: they suck in multiplayer
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12:25:57  <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause3: and if the ai ever learns to use them
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12:28:01  <Mirrakor> well.. building up a railway network coast me a lot of money yesterday..
12:28:44  <Mirrakor> what's better, building a long railway to another _big_ city or is a smaller big -> small city connection better?
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12:29:16  <Prof_Frink> big-big will get you meny quicker
12:29:52  <Prof_Frink> big-small will eventually give you two big cities, one of which has a staion right at the centre.
12:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> industry-industry usually gives you a great deal of money to build your empire on
12:30:31  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause3: You mean coalmine-powerstation
12:30:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> typically a coal-power line that you forget about for the rest of the game
12:31:16  <Mirrakor> okay.. then I'll try both - yesterday I really screwed up, building a train network, would you recommend two termus(?) train stations with two rails going to the other station?
12:32:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> i usually concipate my stations as drive-through, even if i only connect one side at the moment
12:32:29  <Mirrakor> how do you do that?
12:32:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> Transport, 12. Mai 1939.png
12:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm...
12:32:54  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png
12:32:56  * Prof_Frink hands Eddi|zuHause3 sone %20
12:33:05  <Mirrakor> ouch
12:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> too little, too late ;)
12:33:07  <Alberth> They're called RoRo stations
12:33:28  <Mirrakor> Eddi|zuHause3: the missing %20 are no problem for me :)
12:33:45  <Mirrakor> yeah, I know roll in, roll out - but that seems like a complexe station there..
12:34:43  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause3, Do you have realistic acceleration on or off in that game?
12:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%2028.%20Sep%201927.png <- earlier version of the station
12:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> Yexo: always on
12:36:17  <Alberth> Mirrakor: 2nd picture at
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12:36:34  <Patrick`> I've had an idea for a roro station
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12:36:47  <Alberth> although I don't understand why the entrance side has double signal
12:36:48  <Patrick`> the exit loop is a tunnel that goes underneath the same platform the train entered
12:36:57  <Patrick`> thus, you don't need complex turning loops
12:37:20  <Patrick`> just linears to clear the platform asap and then you know you won't have a chaser
12:37:23  <Mirrakor> could you recommend something.. ?
12:38:03  <Patrick`> Mirrakor: hmm
12:38:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> Alberth: it's an urban myth that you need 2-way signals to give trains a choice where to go
12:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's an ancient ttdp hack
12:38:18  <ln> btw, why is "xyztown Transport" translatable?
12:38:23  <ln> + *not*
12:38:33  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, but it's so ingrained now :)
12:38:40  <Patrick`> I don't even think to distinguish
12:38:51  <Patrick`> plus it means you can convert a thingy (?) to a roro easily
12:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> Patrick`: typical problem with tunnels is long signal distance
12:40:01  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause3: yes, but if it's the exit to a roro you know you don't have a chaser
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12:40:23  <Alberth> Mirrakor: What do you need recommendations about?
12:40:28  <Patrick`> I've usually just been doing sharp turns and then lead the exit track down one side of the platform
12:40:32  <Patrick`> but if space is tight ...
12:40:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> but i don't usually use Ro-Ro stations
12:40:53  <Patrick`> yeah, me neither unless the load is really high
12:41:27  <Mirrakor> Alberth: a train network setup
12:41:28  <Prof_Frink> are my standard terminus/roro stations
12:41:53  <Mirrakor> hm.. but I think I've to go in about 10 minutes..
12:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> ln: i wonder that, too... in TTO it was translated
12:43:15  <Alberth> For a train network with passengers, try the 2 big cities
12:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%201.%20Jul%201981.png
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12:44:40  <Mirrakor> Alberth: and Ro-Ro-Stations or the other kind?
12:44:56  <Prof_Frink> Start with termini.
12:45:31  <Mirrakor> the termini station here's a good configuration for my city?
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12:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> wait, i have one of those, too
12:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%2018.%20Dez%201982.png
12:46:33  <Prof_Frink> It's a nice simple option, minimal footprint, easily expandable
12:47:08  <Alberth> For passengers, RoRo if you have room (you will get a busy station!)
12:47:23  <Prof_Frink> Of course, the real fun isn't in the the station, it's in the interchange
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12:48:02  <Mirrakor> I've to go now sorry, but I'll be back later and then we'll try to figure it out.. :D (signals will by funny... :D )
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12:48:20  <Alberth> Mirrakor: ok, bye
12:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd suggest any beginner to try to start with the (YAPP) 'Advanced Signals'
12:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> oh, and you haven't seen stations until you have seen this one
12:52:04  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%2020.%20Okt%201947.png
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12:54:51  <DaleStan> <Eddi|zuHause3> it's an ancient ttdp hack <-- No, it's an ancient ttd hack.
12:55:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, possibly
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12:55:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, it's not in ottd since OPF is not available anymore
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12:56:55  <Patrick`> trains just look so much nicer than monorail or maglev
12:57:09  <Patrick`> and you can get away with a lot more elegant track layout because you're not such a slave to RA
12:57:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> i usually build my curves like this: \ _ _ _ /
12:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> RA lets you go 130 through those
12:59:39  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%2017.%20Okt%201981.png
13:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> advanced hill climbing
13:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> occasionally i miss turning tunnels...
13:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause3>,%204.%20Sep%201925.png
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13:05:18  <ln> where the hell are screenshots saved into?
13:05:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> ~/.openttd
13:06:11  <ln> thanks.
13:06:28  <ln> should i express my opinion about the sensibility of that location?
13:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes. please.
13:07:43  <Prof_Frink> ln: Or use ksnaphot and save the cropped images directly... anywhere
13:08:05  <ln> why on earth are they saved into such totally wrong, hidden place?
13:08:24  <Prof_Frink> Where should they be saved then?
13:09:06  <ln> current dir, or ~/Desktop, or ~
13:09:42  <Rubidium> current dir might not be writable, ~ and ~/Desktop aren't quite the place where I'd like my screenshots dumped
13:09:58  <Rubidium> but you can have it in the current dir *when* you have openttd.cfg also in that directory
13:10:18  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, but if I spend 2n tiles on each stretch it's fine
13:10:24  <ln> ~/Desktop/OpenTTD Screenshots
13:10:45  <Prof_Frink> ln: Ewwwwwwwwwwwww
13:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> nothing whatsoever should be saved on ~/Desktop
13:11:19  <Rubidium> ln: I wouldn't be able to find them there; primarily because my window manager has no concept of 'desktop' where files can be dumped
13:11:23  <Patrick`> I guess you use a lot of train carts
13:11:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> i hate that firefox does that by default
13:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> and doesn't even let me choose to change it
13:11:55  <ln> Rubidium: nonetheless, ~/.openttd is still wrong.
13:12:44  <Prof_Frink> save to ~/.openttd/screenshots, then ln can symlink that to wherever he likes
13:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, i wanted to suggest that, too :)
13:13:37  <Rubidium> ln: ./configure --personal-dir="~/Desktop"
13:13:49  <Prof_Frink> Hmm, symlink down a kio/fuse tunnel to my ftp
13:13:51  <Rubidium> there... all you shit will be put on the desktop
13:14:07  <ln> Rubidium: but i don't want all the shit there, only screenshots.
13:14:49  <Rubidium> then mv ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg .
13:15:03  <ln> but i'm wrong of course.
13:15:06  <Rubidium> assuming you're in the directory where the ottd binary is
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13:37:28  <Ridayah> Well hmm.
13:38:25  <Ridayah> I have my openttd.cfg with lan_internet 1 and server_advertise = false, but it still seems to be querying the master server?  Linux dedicated from console.
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13:38:49  <Ridayah> Did I just miss a note where it'd connect anyways, or is that unwanted behavior?
13:49:12  <Ridayah> If it queries the master-server anyways I'll just ignore it, but with server_advertise = false it should not query it correct?
13:50:08  <Rubidium> 1) did you start the server with advertising the last 30 or so minute?
13:50:19  <Rubidium> 2) where does it exactly send the packets to?
13:50:30  <Rubidium> 3) what protocol and port are the packets sent to?
13:52:51  <Ridayah> 1) No, but it had been running for a while so that might be it.  2) and other IP's which I assume are those querying the master server. 3) udp, port 3678
13:53:17  <Ridayah> If it needs to sit a while, I'll let it be then before restarting the server and see if that helps.  Thanks.
13:53:19  <Rubidium> where is the openttd.cfg you've edited?
13:53:31  <Rubidium> have you edited it while the server was running?
13:53:53  <Rubidium> (where as in: in your home directory, in the directory where the ottd binary is, etc)
13:54:13  <Ridayah> it's at /usr/share/games/openttd/openttd.cfg and no, I always stop the server before making edits. ;)
13:54:46  <Rubidium> is there an openttd.cfg in ~/.openttd/ or $DIR_WHERE_THE_OPENTTD_BINARY_IS ?
13:55:39  <Ridayah> Nope, the only openttd.cfg is the one in the above directory!
13:56:14  <Rubidium> udp to other IPs?
13:56:36  <Ridayah> Yeah; like requests for NewGRF listing and such, which I'm figuring is a result of being listed on the master server.
13:56:56  <Rubidium> but does the server receive those or send those?
13:57:38  <Rubidium> oh, and what version are you using?
13:58:15  <Ridayah> recieved I'm fairly positive, and version 0.6.0-RC1.  Went with that instead of a nightly since it's a server to play with my girlfriend, ha
13:59:11  <Rubidium> well, could also be a client trying to get the server list because that shows the same packets
13:59:12  <Ridayah> And yes, all the IPs and requests for the newgrfs and such are "queried from"
13:59:22  <Rubidium> anyhow, is it shown on ?
14:00:05  <Ridayah> nope, not seeing it listed on there but the server's been down about 20 minutes or so now while I figure this out.
14:00:43  <Rubidium> turn it on and when it does not show on within a minute it must've been something else
14:00:57  <Ridayah> however, it -is- listed as being currently offline.  I'll check it.
14:01:32  * Ridayah starts up the server.
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14:03:06  <Ridayah> well on startup it is NOT saying queries to master server, but there's still the udp recieved from (random IPs)
14:03:25  <Ridayah> Still listed as offline on the server list.
14:03:36  <Rubidium> then it's not advertised anymore
14:04:01  <Ridayah> Well then, guess the queries are a part of it.  Thanks a ton. :)
14:04:10  <Rubidium> the only thing that could cause those packets is someone who has a wrongly configured network that clicked on show network games and it's still trying to find your server
14:04:14  <mrfrenzy> there might be lots of users who has your server cached in their list
14:04:37  <Ridayah> So that should fade out after time then?
14:05:52  <Ridayah> well, I'll give it a few days and see, regardless.  Again, my thanks, very much!
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14:33:52  <bowman> is there a patch setting that will prevent industries from going out of business?
14:34:41  <Yexo> no
14:35:04  <mrfrenzy> hey bowman
14:35:28  <bowman> mhm
14:35:30  <bowman> hey
14:35:36  <mrfrenzy> are you bowman from efnet?
14:35:39  <bowman> yep
14:35:54  <mrfrenzy> long time no seen :P
14:36:06  <bowman> not that long hehe
14:36:08  <mrfrenzy> there is a patch to do it I believe
14:37:36  <bowman> I'd want them to decline as usual when unserviced (with smooth economy) but stop short of disappearing completely :)
14:37:50  <ln> aargh, "patch setting"
14:37:57  <ln> someone please rename it.
14:38:55  <yorick> get us a suitable name
14:38:56  <mrfrenzy>
14:39:40  <ln> yorick: additional setting
14:39:56  <yorick> how would that translate?
14:40:14  <yorick> patch settings are basically settings from patches that once got into trunk
14:40:56  <ln> no, they aren't
14:41:28  <yorick> after that, dev's began misusing them
14:42:13  <ln> yorick:
14:42:29  <ln> yorick: do you have evidence?
14:42:35  <yorick> no
14:44:44  <Prof_Frink> ln: No, just "Settings", and merge game options/difficulty settings into the one dialogue.
14:44:52  <ln> yorick: so you just came up with that kind of a story?
14:45:07  <ln> Prof_Frink: also acceptable.
14:46:01  <Alberth> If you want to keep them seperate, "advanced settings" would also be an option
14:48:27  <ln> Alberth: many of them aren't particularly advanced, but very useful for anyone.
14:48:40  <dih> @seen Bjarni
14:48:41  <DorpsGek> dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 40 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Bjarni> so it's imaginary funny
14:50:06  <Alberth> So merging all settings together would be preferable? Fine by me too...
14:51:29  <Patrick`> hahaha
14:51:34  <Patrick`> there's a pig latin lenguage setting
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14:53:47  <bowman> hehe
14:55:09  <Patrick`> it won't compile - my fault or a broken repo?
14:55:24  <Rubidium> ``one setting to rule them all''
14:55:39  <Patrick`> it's been a looong time since I compiled ottd
14:57:00  <Prof_Frink> I have a crontab that compiles it daily
14:58:07  <Patrick`> yeah, I was just being a nub
14:58:11  <Patrick`> recyclig a very old repo
14:58:16  <Patrick`> some sort of cruft or permissions problem
14:58:55  <Patrick`> I just want to make myself a map that's the same area as a 2k*2k but only 128 wide
14:59:01  <Patrick`> or even 64 if it'll fit
15:00:33  <Prof_Frink> That's a tad nuts
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15:01:02  <Patrick`> think of the cargo payments :)
15:01:12  <Patrick`> cba for now
15:01:30  <Patrick`> I used to build with cygwin, did the png issue ever get fixed?
15:01:36  <Patrick`> I know it wasn't our fault blah blah
15:01:47  <Sacro> oh yes... i don't have perl in irssi ><
15:01:59  <Yexo> I still can't compile with png under cygwin
15:02:08  <Yexo> but that could also be my fault
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15:04:51  <Patrick`> Yexo: no, it's a cygwin issue that's so obscure nobody will fix it
15:05:20  <Yexo> ok, than I won't try to fix it either :P
15:08:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12484 /branches/noai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: add missing headers to the MSVC project files.
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15:20:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12485 /branches/0.6/config.lib: [0.6] -Backport: from trunk (r12483, disabling of stripping for betas and RCs).
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16:27:09  <Mirrakor> there's no currency translation, isn't there?
16:29:20  <SmatZ> you can define your own currencies
16:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> currency names are translated
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16:34:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> src/lang/german.txt:910:STR_CURR_DEM                                                    :Deutsche Mark (DEM)
16:36:41  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause3: Have you ever read file metadata in Delphi? My searching on the net does not give much help.
16:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have not worked with delphi in years...
16:37:04  <Zuu> Okay.
16:37:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> and when i did, i usually made console applications (pascal style)
16:38:05  <SmatZ> Belugas does a lot in delphi...
16:38:50  <Zuu> I'm not so used to doing win-API things, but I gues I have do dig into something like that if I want to get it work.
16:39:08  <Zuu> SmatZ: Okay, I'll ask him when he is around then.
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16:40:19  <Patrick`> WIN
16:41:12  <Zuu> reading OpentTTD version from openttd.exe have it's benefits as you get branch name three too. Though perhaps the same information should be available elsewhere too as metadata is only available on NTFS as far as I've understood.
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17:00:46  <Ammller> Zuu: over the console: openttd.exe -h
17:00:53  <Ammller> 1. row
17:01:36  <Zuu> Ammller: Thanks, didn't even though about executing openttd and ask it :)
17:02:14  <Mirrakor> SmatZ: No I mean something like 1€ => 1,95DM or something like this
17:02:33  <Mirrakor> you know, there are those currencys where you've to spend a million to buy a bottle of water
17:02:34  <Patrick`> the exchange rates are built in
17:02:44  <Patrick`> I remember in ttd, there were 2 pounds for a dollar
17:03:03  <Mirrakor> cool :)
17:03:14  <Zuu> Though it shows in a msg-box here, and if I'm not wrong it is not possible to rederict the output to stdout.
17:03:16  <Patrick`> those were the days
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17:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> new internets work
17:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> not faster, but more beautiful ;)
17:04:55  <Zuu> Can internet be beautiful? Content can for sure, but internet itself?
17:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> they can! i just told you!
17:09:21  <Prof_Frink> Patrick`: Umm, no.
17:09:35  <Patrick`> the exchange rates *were* built in
17:09:35  <Prof_Frink> Two dollars to the pound
17:09:38  <Patrick`> oops
17:09:42  <Patrick`> yes, dur, I fail
17:11:29  <Ammller> [19:03] <Zuu> Though it shows in a msg-box here, and if I'm not wrong it is not possible to rederict the output to stdout. <-- quite ugly, is that windows or openttd?
17:12:10  <Mirrakor> btw. is there something like a right-side-traffic for trains?
17:12:29  <Zuu> openttd I think, since it is possible to write windows applications that uses stdout, the problem is that most windows-users don't know how to use the console, so I guess openttd have decided to use msg-boxes instead of stdout.
17:13:07  <Ammller> i call them over console, so it should output there
17:13:34  <Ammller> Mirrakor:
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17:13:48  <Ammller> it takes the side from road traffic also for trains, iirc
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17:14:08  <Mirrakor> doesn't it just take it the way the signals go?
17:14:14  <Mirrakor> (btw. can I rotate the view?)
17:14:26  <Ammller> nope, its not 3d
17:14:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, no
17:14:39  <Mirrakor> :)
17:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> but the road side defines on which side of the tracks the signals go
17:15:09  <glx> <Ammller> i call them over console, so it should output there <-- only if openttd is "converted" to be a console app
17:15:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> typically, the signals stand on the outside of a doubletrack
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17:16:34  <Zuu> Ammller: So do I, used console2+cygwin+zsh, but using standard windows terminal gives the same msg-dialgo. Though I don't know any way for the program to detect if it is run by a terminal or by somone double clicking on it. :(
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17:17:54  <Ammller> glx: is there a option you can give to reach output to console?
17:18:13  <glx> not without converting it
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17:18:41  <Ammller> converting means compiling it in an other way?
17:18:57  <glx> with -d it outputs in the console, but as it is a window app, it opens its own console
17:19:12  <glx> converting means changing a byte in the exe
17:19:41  <glx> using
17:19:49  <bowman> not an ideal way to read the version info from the exe in any case :)
17:21:04  <Mirrakor> the DS Port is really funny
17:21:24  <Ammller> maybe something with md5sums?
17:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> grep the readme ;)
17:23:41  <dih> hehe
17:24:00  <bowman> I think its pretty much plain text, within the resource section of the exe
17:24:02  <Zuu> glx: Do you know of a good way to obtain branch information which is found in file metadata of openttd.exe on NTFS filesystems other than reading the metadata from NTFS?  If you grep openttd.exe for noai you'll get a match on noai-branch and you could grep for all branch tags to see which branch it is if any. But that seams a bit hacky :)
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17:25:31  <glx> Zuu: you can get the version with windows API
17:26:05  <Zuu> glx: Ok, I'll probably have to dig into that. hehe
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17:35:39  <Mirrakor> someone remember the picture of my city from later this midday?
17:37:46  <peter1138> Remember from later?
17:38:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12486 /trunk/src/ -Fix: the copyright date wasn't set correctly in ottdres.rc.
17:38:20  <Mirrakor> ups, s/later/earlier
17:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> no. we have neither logs nor long term memory ;)
17:39:08  <Mirrakor> would you recommend a terminus with two rails or a terminus with four rails? (or should I buy the land and use it for later - if needed)
17:40:07  <Mirrakor>
17:40:30  <peter1138> hmm
17:40:33  <peter1138> that will get big
17:40:36  <peter1138> so at least 4
17:41:12  <Sacro> i want underground stations :(
17:41:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> i want, too
17:41:40  <Mirrakor> rather more? I just even the land at the right side to build something
17:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> blame smatz ;)
17:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> 4 is usually enough for a terminus
17:42:21  <Mirrakor> is that a bad idea or is it ok?
17:42:23  <Rubidium> hmm... Sacro's the new Born_Acorn?
17:42:48  <Sacro> Rubidium! undergroundstations!
17:43:13  <Mirrakor> Eddi|zuHause3: can I build a train under the sea?
17:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> no
17:43:30  <Sacro> under the sea...
17:43:33  <Sacro> under the sea...
17:43:37  * Sacro whistles
17:43:42  <Mirrakor> *gg*
17:44:33  <Mirrakor> And what would be a good size for the lenght?
17:45:24  <Mirrakor> (I can transport passengers, mail and probably a bit later items too..)
17:45:55  <Alberth> With such a city, longer is better
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17:47:14  <Mirrakor> yeah, but got a recommendation how long?
17:47:23  <Patrick`> leave yourself space
17:47:34  <Alberth> I always do 5 long stations
17:47:38  <Sacro> Alberth: longer is always better
17:47:53  <Patrick`> I standardise on four because it makes RA less of a pain
17:48:08  <Rubidium> Sacro: <- underground station!
17:48:43  <Alberth> Hmm, can you build a station of 30+ tiles?
17:48:44  <Sacro> Rubidium: pfft, it's on legs
17:48:55  * Sacro can see the pixels
17:49:00  <Patrick`> Sacro: shopped?
17:49:38  <Sacro> Rubidium: it'd be nice if you could build it with only a 2x4 surface usage
17:49:45  <Sacro> and not need to damage the whole city
17:49:48  * Sacro smells gass
17:49:53  * Sacro goes to investigate
17:50:10  <Mirrakor> Patrick`: RA?
17:50:42  <Patrick`> realistic acceleration
17:51:20  <Mirrakor> ah, it's turned off by default isn't it? (would you suggest to activate it? )
17:51:43  <Patrick`> yes, because unless I've been under a rock for years (which I have), slope climbing utterly mauls your train speed
17:51:52  <Mirrakor> ok, now I've 4 rails :D I bundle them to 2 (one for each direction, right? )
17:52:12  <Alberth> sounds like a good plan
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17:53:44  <murr4y> hi guise :D
17:54:00  <Mirrakor> how much time do you usually spend with building up a railway network? Do you just build it and connect it, or do you do some further planning?
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17:55:36  <Mirrakor> (same old picture) - would you build a bridge over the see to connect the two big cities, or rather not?
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17:55:59  <Alberth> I like to do it after getting into trouble, others plan very far ahead. Just do what you like best
17:56:07  <peter1138> i'd go around it
17:56:13  <mrfrenzy> if you are going to connect the cities, building a bridge would be the way to go imo
17:56:29  <mrfrenzy> you don't get paid for the extra distance of going around
17:56:43  <Mirrakor> hm.. :D but a bridge coasts money, doesn't it?
17:56:48  <mrfrenzy> indeed
17:56:54  <Mirrakor> much money? :D
17:57:05  <mrfrenzy> that is only when you have ridiculous amounts of money and want to make everything effective
17:57:08  <Alberth> if your station is at the 'bottom', go around, else buy a bridge
17:57:15  <mrfrenzy> it will be much cheaper to go around
17:57:31  <Alberth> try making a bridge, you'll get a window with a bridge type adn cost
17:57:48  <Mirrakor> then I think I'll go around.. this way I could build up some Ro-Ro-Stations at the right bottom cities
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17:58:58  <Mirrakor> Well.. about ~100k
17:59:43  <Alberth> if you have speed limits switched on, also note the speed limit of the bridge
17:59:59  <Mirrakor> yeah, I just saw them
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18:08:25  <Patrick`> bridges can only take one train anyway
18:08:40  <Mirrakor> I'm going around ;)
18:09:14  <Mirrakor> The upper station the lowest rail, is it possible for the train here, to get on the left main-rail?
18:09:54  <glx> Zuu:
18:09:58  <Prof_Frink> Mirrakor: You're quite right, there's a bit missing there
18:10:07  <Mirrakor> the middle pice?
18:10:31  <Mirrakor> s/pice/piece
18:10:36  <Prof_Frink> The two blocks in the middle should have every piece of track possible on them.
18:11:28  <Mirrakor> thanks Prof_Frink(isn't that the mavin guy from the simpsons..? ) :)
18:12:14  <Prof_Frink> Aye
18:12:29  <Zuu> glx: Thanks. The updater is in delphi, but if I dot't get it to work in delphi, manking an extranal c/cpp program for getting version info is not impossible. But I've found some interesting things on the net that I'm trying out.
18:12:57  <glx> Zuu: delphi can use windows API
18:13:24  <glx> maybe it have builtins function for that too
18:14:21  <Mirrakor> nooo - I built it in the wrong city :D
18:14:38  <Mirrakor> now I've got two 4x5 train stations in one city..
18:14:45  <Zuu> No built in function what I'm aware of. being quite old I'm not surprised if WinAPI is the only way.
18:15:09  <Zuu> I've seen some examples that uses som OLE-thing, but that example was uncomplete. :/
18:15:12  <Zuu> some*
18:15:42  <Alberth> That will also work, except you get paid (much) less
18:16:43  <Mirrakor> I'll show you a picture.. I just hope I saved it..
18:18:56  <Mirrakor> I guess I should keep the upper one.. since it's nearer(?) to the center and the railway network get's shorter..
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18:21:00  <Prof_Frink> The NE one may have issues if you're using realistic acceleration
18:21:15  <Prof_Frink> (Also, ewww, .jpg)
18:21:46  <Alberth> The center is where the city name is displayed. I would have put the upper station just south of the cursor.
18:21:47  <peter1138> hmm
18:21:56  <peter1138> i woul...
18:22:00  <peter1138> yes, exactly that ;)
18:22:06  <Mirrakor> is png really an advantage here? (I've been told it's most powerful for shematic graphics, for fotos/realistic pictures it's way bigger than jpeg..)
18:22:23  <Alberth> Good point Prof_Frink, the bottom one is much better in that respect.
18:22:31  <peter1138> this is not a photo or a realistic picture
18:22:49  <Prof_Frink> Mirrakor: openttd is not photorealistic.
18:23:06  <Mirrakor> sure, but it has many different colors in one inch
18:23:07  <Prof_Frink> (yet)
18:23:28  <Prof_Frink> No, only 256
18:23:40  <Mirrakor> (yet) *gg*
18:24:12  <Maedhros> and since jpg is lossy you lose some of the details, and some of the colours that should be different start looking the same
18:24:41  <Mirrakor> sure, but is it important to keep all color informations for such a picture?
18:24:52  <Maedhros> the bars on entrance / combo presignals look pretty much the same in jpgs
18:24:59  <Maedhros> so, yes :p
18:25:06  <Mirrakor> true, yes
18:25:08  <Prof_Frink> plus, just hit ctrl-s to get a nicey .png
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18:26:22  <Mirrakor> okay - I've an old savegame :)
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18:27:03  <Mirrakor> I'll now build it directy under the city label, should the rails point Southeast or
18:27:06  <Mirrakor> north east
18:27:36  <Prof_Frink> SE gives more opportunity to ease the slope
18:27:48  <Prof_Frink> Depends where you want to go.
18:28:38  <Mirrakor> East :D
18:31:52  <Alberth> Have to go make myself some food, night
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18:33:33  <Mirrakor> is this correct connected so far?
18:34:05  <Mirrakor> I think the diagonal rail between the lowest two is wrong
18:34:29  <Patrick`> finally, something I was bitching about for years
18:34:34  <Patrick`> a free sound prject
18:34:49  <Patrick`> so we can finally get a working game into distros
18:35:03  <Patrick`> Mirrakor: no
18:35:11  <Patrick`> the third platform can't have a signal in front of it
18:35:16  <Patrick`> so a train htere will block the whole grid
18:36:29  <Mirrakor> so I should make a straight one in front of it
18:36:32  <Patrick`> yeah
18:36:59  <Patrick`> trains go really slowly when partially inside a platform so you want a few tiles as breathing space
18:37:49  <Mirrakor> hm.. true.. but then my station should point SE
18:39:17  <Patrick`> whatever fits
18:39:31  <Patrick`> you can always optimise later
18:41:44  <Mirrakor> is there a way to make trees invisible?
18:42:03  <peter1138> yes
18:42:32  <Mirrakor> how?
18:44:26  <Patrick`> where's the code for the new game gui kept? I messed with it once, can't remember what the file is
18:45:41  <Patrick`> genworld_gui
18:47:11  <Zuu> glx: I've succesfully adopted your code for Delphi so now I get the version string. Thanks. :)
18:47:23  <Patrick`> bah, too confusing
18:47:35  <Zuu> The Delphi-code if anyone cares: :p
18:47:57  <peter1138> Mirrakor: it's a patch option for the transparency setting
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18:50:18  <Mirrakor> why is "use better loading" disabled?
18:50:51  <peter1138> it's not better, it's different
18:52:06  <Mirrakor> it's translated as improved :)
18:52:21  <peter1138> yes
18:52:22  <Mirrakor> btw. is there some kind of read me for all those patch settings?
18:54:03  <SmatZ> Mirrakor:
18:54:42  <Patrick`> where is it that the map size dropdown is coded?
18:54:48  <Patrick`> I mena, the limit
18:55:20  <Patrick`> ah, thee already exists a patch for what I want to do
18:55:58  <Patrick`> 1048576*64
18:56:00  <Patrick`> BWAHAHAH
18:56:13  <peter1138> heh
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19:05:43  <xyz> hi
19:05:57  <Mirrakor> hi
19:06:07  <xyz> is there a way to find out the name of the server you are connected to?
19:06:44  <xyz> in case the connection is lost to know what to search fore
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19:09:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> lsof?
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19:26:55  <Patrick`> I think this patch is a little excessive
19:27:09  <Patrick`> it took me literally one and a half minutes to scroll from one end of the map to the other
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19:29:28  <mrfrenzy> lol
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19:35:00  <Patrick`> so far the train has been on the rails for 4 years
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19:35:04  <Patrick`> definitely excessive
19:36:36  <Prof_Frink> Aaaand the power station has closed
19:36:52  <peter1138> hehe
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19:38:09  <Patrick`> fucker, it did
19:38:46  <Prof_Frink> People are so predictable
19:39:06  <Prof_Frink> It's always a coal mine - power station run
19:39:39  <Patrick`> it's the starting out winner
19:39:47  <Patrick`> plus you need power for other things
19:39:51  <peter1138> power stations don't close...
19:40:03  <peter1138> or something
19:40:29  <Mirrakor> I can't change the Train design during a running game - right?
19:40:33  <Patrick`> I was putting it on for comic effect
19:41:12  <peter1138> :)
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19:45:05  <Mirrakor> would you build a train depot for every major trainstation or just one in the whole network?
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19:47:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> i place depots very sparsely, but i also turn off breakdowns and servicing
19:48:55  <Zuu> I have them in network, but make sure they are at least 18 tiles away from junction if possible as that prevents trains from taking the wrong way in junctions just to get to the depot.
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19:49:59  <Zuu> And usually I use so called service stations, where the depot is placed off-track so that the train don't slow down on the main-track.
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19:51:42  <Wolf01> 'night
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19:52:23  <Zuu> If the network don't have too high load I usually give main-track priority over the train that comes from the service station.
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19:59:14  <Mirrakor> Is there a way for me to see how many passengers would use the train? (Or is it directly related to the number of citizens?)
20:00:38  <Patrick`> for a city that size, the answer is "more than you can handle"
20:01:02  <Mirrakor> no, just a general question - my father is asking :D
20:01:35  <hylje> Mirrakor: each building "produces" passengers -- the more and bigger buildings, the more users
20:01:35  <Prof_Frink> Mirrakor: It's a positive feedback loop
20:01:36  <Mirrakor> (he's a commuter and I think he's interested in such stuff (especially with an old vehicle skin :D ) )
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20:02:08  <Prof_Frink> The more passengers you transport, the more the town will generate, so the more passengers it will produce
20:02:25  <Prof_Frink> s/generate/grow/
20:03:06  <Patrick`> aah cool
20:04:32  <Mirrakor> how can I build a tunnel?
20:04:42  <Prof_Frink> With the tunnel tool.
20:04:43  <hylje> using the tunnel button in construction
20:04:45  <hylje> hotkey t
20:04:53  <Mirrakor> uh, that's a good idea
20:05:10  <hylje> note that you can't tunnel canals nor airports
20:05:29  <hylje> despite there being an alleged underground airport in north korea
20:05:42  <Mirrakor> lol? how does it work?
20:05:59  <hylje> runway in a tunnel, hole in the ceiling
20:06:16  <Mirrakor> outch.. has to have skilled pilotes..
20:06:51  <jez9999> wow, a father who plays OpenTTD?
20:06:53  <Mirrakor> can I build signals underground? and can I join different rails in a tunnel?
20:06:57  <hylje> no
20:06:58  <hylje> not yet
20:06:59  <jez9999> that would be cool :-)
20:07:03  <hylje> maybe in the far, far future
20:07:10  <hylje> where grass is greener
20:07:33  <Mirrakor> jez9999: not yet, but he looks interested - even though I guess he think it's to complicated :/
20:08:04  <jez9999> lol
20:08:55  <Mirrakor> btw. how expensive is such a tunnel? (if the height difference is only a few tiles - would it be cheaper to just even them?)
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20:20:14  <Mirrakor> oh my god - this whole railway network coasts more than I expected :D
20:20:21  <Mirrakor> who can I blame? :D
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20:23:14  <hylje> Mirrakor: coincidentally railways are the most profitable because they scale best
20:24:24  <Mirrakor> hehe
20:25:29  <Mirrakor> Maybe someone heard the news that the Transrapid project suddenly coasted two billion(was it?) more than expected and therefore got cancled :D
20:25:39  <hylje> yes
20:26:58  <peter1138> s/coasted/cost/
20:28:15  <Bjarni>  <Mirrakor> who can I blame? :D <-- whenever we search for someone to blame we usually end up thinking about Sacro :P
20:28:26  <Sacro> breasts?
20:28:38  <Prof_Frink> where?
20:28:42  <Bjarni> that's another keyword for thinking about Sacro
20:28:47  <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: on the lesbians
20:28:59  <Prof_Frink> Mmmmmmmm, lessibans.
20:29:03  <Bjarni> err...
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20:29:16  <Axamentia> lebanons?
20:29:19  <Bjarni> mentioning breasts in this channel makes people think of Sacro.... wtf
20:29:34  <Bjarni> Sacro: you molested this channel :(
20:29:46  <Bjarni> broke the sanity in it completely
20:29:50  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: #tycoon is thataway <--
20:30:08  <Bjarni> actually it's that way -->
20:30:19  <ln> Bjarni!
20:30:51  <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Actually, they're in the same place, temporally separated.
20:31:15  <Prof_Frink> But #tycoon is 2 and #openttd is 3
20:32:21  <Bjarni> what is #1 then?
20:32:26  <Sacro> me!
20:32:54  <Bjarni> Sacro: I didn't ask you
20:32:55  <Prof_Frink> 1 is the server messages
20:42:08  <ln> back from the cinema [x]
20:42:34  <peter1138> what did you watch, lost?
20:42:35  <jez9999> hey Bjarni
20:42:47  <ln> Die FÀlscher.
20:42:56  <jez9999> get anywhere with the ability to estimate autoreplace cost?
20:43:37  <ln> not lost.
20:46:58  <Bjarni> jez9999: I coded it
20:47:03  <Bjarni> but I didn't commit it
20:47:12  <jez9999> ah
20:47:17  <Bjarni> something is odd about it
20:47:58  <Bjarni> I expected it to always just tell me the costs but it's not entirely stable and I need to figure out why
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20:49:39  <jez9999> o
20:49:42  <jez9999> ok
20:49:42  <Bjarni> I mean it should work with shift+click in the GUI
20:49:58  <Bjarni> sometimes it works and sometimes the popup window is completely blank
20:50:08  <jez9999> i should be able to say:
20:50:08  <jez9999> 			CommandCost depotcost = DoCommand(ddata.tile, VEH_TRAIN, p2, DC_QUERY_COST, CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE);
20:50:08  <jez9999> 			assert(!CmdFailed(depotcost));
20:50:19  <jez9999> if it's blank is the command failing or succeeding?
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20:50:57  <peter1138> assert? :o
20:51:00  <jez9999> even with the current code, i upgraded a massive network to monorail, then to maglev, in a game i played today
20:51:04  <jez9999> it was cool :-)
20:51:08  <jez9999> would have taken hours by hand
20:51:09  <Bjarni> I wondered about that assert as well
20:51:25  <jez9999> it worked pretty well, if i hadnt put it there i might not have noticed the problem :-)
20:51:39  <jez9999> it should never fail if there is a depot with trains in should it?
20:51:42  <Bjarni> also why p2?
20:51:57  <Bjarni> I think you should hardcode that value to 1, not p2
20:52:04  <jez9999> only because you hadn't got round to #defining that yet
20:52:12  <jez9999> 1 is nondescriptive, i have a comment near where i define p2
20:52:50  <Bjarni> maybe p2 isn't the best name for it though but ok
20:53:04  <Bjarni> as long as it will not look like that when the diff is done
20:53:08  <jez9999> probably autoreplace_func.h should have a #define for that bit
20:53:14  <jez9999> then i can 'or' it in
20:53:43  <ln> "The Counterfeiters is the true story of the largest counterfeiting operation in history, set up by the Nazis in 1936."
20:54:08  <Bjarni> ?
20:54:18  <Bjarni> who said that?
20:54:25  <Bjarni> is it a reliable source?
20:54:29  <ln> summary of the movie i watched.
20:54:35  <ln> it's from the internet, it is reliable.
20:54:43  <jez9999> The Internet said that?
20:55:37  <Bjarni> I once found a technical description on the internet that can be proven to be wrong
20:55:50  <jez9999> Bjarni: so when this cost estimate is fixed the only remaining issue (that i can remember) is NewGRF complaining about upgrades
20:55:57  <Bjarni> it was just some guy trying to deal with engineering issues without understanding them
20:56:04  <jez9999> i was hoping you'd find a way to magically make it easy for me to deal with that :-)
20:56:28  <jez9999> i was playing on openttdcoop's server today and see what you mean about maglev sets that only allow passengers
20:56:30  <Bjarni> I know how to deal with that
20:56:38  <jez9999> what does my patch need to do?
20:56:42  <Bjarni> but the solution isn't compatible with the structure of autoreplace
20:56:47  <jez9999> hmm
20:56:58  <jez9999> what will it currently do?
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20:57:13  <Bjarni> right now it replace a train unit by unit from the start
20:57:21  <Bjarni> say you have A-B-C
20:57:28  <Bjarni> you replace A to D
20:57:46  <Bjarni> then it moves B-C to D so you get D-B-C
20:57:56  <jez9999> right
20:58:04  <Bjarni> this is a problem if D and B can't connect due to NewGRF overwrite rules
20:58:20  <jez9999> but presumably the command will just fail
20:58:25  <Bjarni> and they need to connect before moving on to replacing B to something that can connect to D
20:58:29  <jez9999> i guess it's too late and will have f*cked up the train though :-)
20:58:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12487 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/squirrel_export.awk: [NoAI] -Fix: the export script didn't properly determine the parameters of some functions.
20:59:22  <jez9999> the desirable behaviour is to fail the upgrade
20:59:26  <jez9999> and leave the train alone
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20:59:54  <jez9999> maybe an error m,sg
21:00:04  <jez9999> "use a newgrf set that lets you use whatever cargo you like, idiot"
21:00:17  <Bjarni> actually the desirable solution is to walk through the train and replace from the rear and connecting as it moves toward the front
21:01:05  <Bjarni> then it will replace A-B-C to D, E and F (not connected) and then place E in front of F and then D in front of E (making D-E-F)
21:01:15  <Bjarni> that way D and B will not need to be connected
21:01:16  <jez9999> erm
21:01:17  <ln> considering that B-C are Bjarni's initials, i'm not sure i want to know what D-B-C indicates.
21:01:30  <jez9999> wouldnt that break the newgrf rules tho?
21:01:31  <Bjarni> ...
21:01:47  <ln> jez9999:
21:02:19  <Bjarni> <jez9999> wouldnt that break the newgrf rules tho? <-- which rule?
21:02:21  <jez9999> ln: quick typing no time for stuff like caps grammar speling punctuation and stuff
21:02:37  <jez9999> Bjarni: if newgrf doesnt want D to connect to B, the command *should* fail, right?
21:02:51  <Bjarni> no
21:02:55  <jez9999> D might be a maglev vehicle and B is an old livestock wagon, the newgrf set doesnt have a livestock wagon
21:03:01  <jez9999> (for maglev)
21:03:09  <ln> jez9999: why not leave out all 'a's, sves time too.
21:03:50  <jez9999> greed
21:03:58  <Bjarni> say you have a DMU made out of two units (A1-A2) and you replace it to a DMU made out of two units (B1-B2). Input is A1-A2 (valid) and output is B1-B2 (also valid)
21:04:13  <Bjarni> then it should be a valid replacement
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21:05:14  <jez9999> ... but that's a diesel to a diesel
21:05:31  *** Slowpoke [] has joined #openttd
21:05:49  <jez9999> i'm thinking of a diesel to a maglev
21:05:55  <Bjarni> makes no difference
21:06:11  <jez9999> i'm obviously misunderstanding here
21:06:17  <Bjarni> the point is that right now it fails if B1 and A2 can't connect
21:06:19  <peter1138> crossed wires
21:06:27  <peter1138> bjarni's talking about something different
21:06:34  <Bjarni> yes and no
21:06:51  <Bjarni> I'm talking about cases in general where the new and old types can't connect
21:07:04  <ln>
21:07:09  <Bjarni> if it fails for diesel to diesel it will for sure fail diesel to maglev as well
21:07:21  <Sacro> 3heh
21:07:24  <Sacro> mount pleasent
21:07:42  <jez9999> are DMUs the one with two engines?
21:07:45  <jez9999> *ones
21:08:27  <Prof_Frink> Not necessarily
21:08:42  <Bjarni> DMU means "Diesel Multiple Unit" and is basically one or more similar units with engines and passenger capacity
21:08:43  <Prof_Frink> the HST has two engines, but is not a DMU
21:09:10  <jez9999> oh they can hold cargo
21:09:36  <Bjarni> real DMUs can't so there are likely some newGRF ones that can't
21:09:49  <Bjarni> unless you count bikes and stuff as cargo
21:10:02  <peter1138> so the point is
21:10:10  <peter1138> moot
21:10:57  <jez9999> my patch currently finds a compatible engine by looking for any engine of the new railtype
21:10:59  <jez9999> hmm
21:11:21  <peter1138> and when it doesn't find appropriate wagons, it fails
21:11:25  <peter1138> as that's all it can do
21:11:37  <Bjarni> the point is if you have train A consisting of A1-A2 (type doesn't matter) and it's replaced to type B (B1-B2) and type A and B can't connect then we have a problem because autoreplace currently tries to connect B1 to A2 (this is the general description of what I tried to say before)
21:12:20  <Bjarni> so if A is diesel and B is maglev then we have your case
21:12:36  <Bjarni> if A is diesel and B is diesel then we have the issue that is known in the trunk
21:13:48  <jez9999> i didnt know there were those kinds of rules
21:13:58  <jez9999> something saying a particular model cant tow another particular wagon?
21:14:17  <Bjarni> yes
21:14:22  <Bjarni> or rather
21:14:38  <Bjarni> it has a list telling what it can connect to (like only it's own kind)
21:14:59  <jez9999> no fun playing like that ;-)
21:15:21  <jez9999> so the maglev-class engine would have a list of other maglev-class engines
21:15:23  <jez9999> in a similar manner?
21:16:12  <Bjarni> I can't answer that
21:16:14  <Bjarni> presume that there is
21:16:27  <Bjarni> because the newGRF codec allows it
21:16:45  <Bjarni> and whatever code we code should work with all grf files
21:16:52  <Bjarni> also the future ones
21:17:21  <Bjarni> so even if there aren't any now there might be one in a month
21:17:42  <peter1138> simple, the upgrade fails, who cares
21:17:52  <Bjarni> jez9999, I presume
21:18:09  <Bjarni> and I know what he is thinking right now :P
21:18:14  <Bjarni> "SHIT!"
21:18:22  <jez9999> huh?
21:18:42  <peter1138> mostly i think 'wtf is bjarni on'
21:18:55  <jez9999> the grf set i was playing with today, there is a maglev train and just a passenger and mail wagon
21:19:06  <jez9999> so there's no way it can possibly allow other cargoes
21:19:19  <jez9999> (unless it allows connections from wagons of other track types which the default set funnily does)
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21:21:34  <Bjarni> peter1138: remember what happened to the last guy who talked about drugs in here?
21:21:52  * Sacro gurles in the corner
21:22:12  <Bjarni> it wasn't you :P
21:22:22  <Bjarni> it's the perm banned guy
21:22:39  <Sacro> questionmark?
21:22:49  <Bjarni> no
21:22:54  <Bjarni> ...
21:23:06  <Sacro> oh unhappyface:(
21:23:13  <Bjarni> it's the guy who have been perm banned for months and was in the list last time I checked
21:23:27  *** Yexo [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:23:41  <Prof_Frink> the only person in /BANS is questionmark
21:23:42  <Bjarni> now who did he drug to remove his ban?
21:23:43  *** jez9999 is now known as questionmark
21:23:45  <questionmark> lala
21:23:45  *** Yexo [] has joined #openttd
21:23:53  *** questionmark is now known as jez9999
21:23:55  <jez9999> did you see that?
21:23:57  <jez9999> (my text(
21:24:06  <Prof_Frink> ...yes
21:24:14  <jez9999> hmm i thought the ban should've stopped it
21:24:17  <Mirrakor> jez9999: it's not the nick which is banned - it's the hostmask
21:24:29  <Prof_Frink> #openttd: ban questionmark!*@* [by, 2292990 secs ago]
21:24:37  <jez9999> looks like the nick to me
21:24:38  <Prof_Frink> That looks like a nickban to me
21:24:41  <Mirrakor> or to be more percicely it's the ident - isn't it?
21:25:48  <Mirrakor> btw. any recommendations on how to join those tracks?
21:25:48  <jez9999> nick!ident@host
21:26:00  <Mirrakor> you're right, yes
21:26:14  <Prof_Frink> jez9999: Very interesting.
21:26:33  <Prof_Frink> The nick questionmark *is* banned from joining the channel
21:26:47  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*scenery@*] by Bjarni
21:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> <ln> "The Counterfeiters is the true story of the largest counterfeiting operation in history, set up by the Nazis in 1936." <- it won an oscar and stuff, but is it actually good?
21:26:58  <Bjarni> looks like he wanted to try to be banned :P
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21:27:13  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!*scenery@*] by Bjarni
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21:27:17  <jez> different ident
21:27:17  <jez> :-)
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21:27:45  <Bjarni> hehe
21:27:47  <Bjarni> [23:27:09]  <-- jez9999 has quit ()
21:27:47  <Bjarni> [23:27:12]  --- Bjarni removes ban on *!*scenery@*
21:27:47  <Bjarni> [23:27:13]  --> jez ( has joined #openttd
21:27:57  <jez9999> Bjarni: im still not quite seeing how your proposed second method of autoreplacement will work
21:28:04  <jez9999> it starts from the right?
21:28:39  <Bjarni> it starts from the left and builds the new vehicles and when it reaches the end then it moves backwards and connects all the new vehicles
21:28:46  <Bjarni> well
21:28:59  <Bjarni> that is when I have coded what I'm planning to code
21:29:01  <jez9999> so ABC becomes ABCDEF becomes DEF?
21:29:11  <Bjarni> no
21:29:26  <Prof_Frink> ABC becomes D E F becomes DEF
21:29:36  <peter1138> still nothing to do with not having suitable wagons available
21:29:49  <jez9999> no, but to do with newgrf rules
21:29:50  <Sacro> ABC
21:29:52  <Bjarni> ABC becomes D BC, D E C, D E F, D EF, DEF
21:29:53  <Sacro> easy as 123
21:30:02  <jez9999> what if it builds D E F, then discovers it cant join something?
21:30:17  <Bjarni> then it reverts :)
21:30:23  <jez9999> ah, i was waiting for something like that
21:30:29  <jez9999> it has to hold the old train setup in mem
21:30:43  <Bjarni> using some code that I have already written but can't test until I have written something that calls it
21:31:10  <jez9999> so what i currently do is CommandCost realcost = DoCommand(ddata.tile, VEH_TRAIN, p2, DC_EXEC, CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE);
21:31:25  <Mirrakor> Eddi|zuHause3: trailer looks interesting
21:31:35  <jez9999> presumably the new method can fail the command if the replacement is invalid, and realcost will be a failed command
21:31:37  <Bjarni> <jez9999> it has to hold the old train setup in mem <-- that's basically the idea. It takes a snapshot of the train so it knows what to revert to
21:31:41  <jez9999> so i can just check for failure there?
21:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> Mirrakor: that was not the question
21:32:06  <Mirrakor> Eddi|zuHause3: can't tell you, didn't saw it
21:32:13  <jez9999> also CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE will have to remember all the trains in the depot and revert if one replacement fails
21:32:21  <jez9999> (when the all-or-nothing bit is set)
21:32:28  <Bjarni> Mirrakor: did anybody saw it?
21:32:34  <Bjarni> did they cut it in half? :p
21:32:54  <Mirrakor> jez9999: yes it starts from the right - splitt off (2 and 2) and then join again later 4 rails again
21:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> a propos saw... which part is current meanwhile?
21:33:11  <Bjarni> jez9999: no, the plan is that such issues should be discovered before DC_EXEC is set
21:33:34  <jez9999> ah, that's why you questioned assert(!CmdFailed(depotcost));
21:33:36  <jez9999> i see
21:33:40  <peter1138> pom te pom
21:33:41  <jez9999> you cant get a cost if you can't replace
21:34:05  <Bjarni> right now I'm talking about how I want it to work, not how it works right now
21:34:09  <Bjarni> there is a big difference
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21:34:58  <jez9999> yeah
21:35:10  <jez9999> im also seeing why people were saying this should have a GUI
21:35:27  <Bjarni> the problem with this planned change is that I planned it in 2007 and it's still not done :(
21:35:29  <jez9999> if you have weird rules saying you can only use certain wagons with certain engines, taking the first available may well fail and be useless
21:35:35  <jez9999> ah :-\
21:35:42  <jez9999> but now you have such a good motivation
21:35:42  <jez9999> :-)
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21:35:58  <Bjarni> it's not lack of motivation
21:36:04  <Bjarni> it's lack of time
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21:36:21  <Bjarni> in fact I should finish up preparing for tomorrow
21:36:24  <Bjarni> bye
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21:38:16  <Mirrakor> the lights in front of the upper station are exit signs, right? but what are the signs in the middle? (also upper station)
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21:43:56  <MG> Anyone seen this issue: In multiplayer new players can build airpoets but not train stations??
21:44:42  <mrfrenzy> wrong grfs probably
21:44:49  <MG> no grfs loaded
21:45:00  <Rubidium> mrfrenzy: only when it's a pre-0.5.0 server, so *very* unlikely
21:45:12  <MG> no this is RC1
21:45:25  <Rubidium> what version is it?
21:45:28  <MG> RC1
21:46:19  <Rubidium> most likely is that somebody played with the settings for the amount of vehicles
21:46:36  <MG> I'll check BRB
21:46:48  <Rubidium> what's the error when building the train stations?
21:47:10  <Mirrakor> how can I set/change the direction of a signal?
21:47:23  <Rubidium> Mirrakor: click
21:47:24  <MG> nope, maxes are 500, 500, 200, 300....only about 40 vehicles total in the games
21:47:42  <MG> The error is simply "cannot build station here"
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21:48:05  <MG> but I can place an airport
21:48:56  <Rubidium> MG: could you be more precise with the error message, because that's not an existing error message
21:49:09  <MG> this is my server BTW and others are having the same issue
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21:49:32  <MG> That is the error message verbatum....honest....
21:49:49  <Axamentia> Is it due to number of aiports in cities MG?
21:50:15  <MG> have a look....the server is Ilse of discovery and just join MG transport...
21:51:33  <MG> the problem is placing stations anywhere on the map...
21:51:51  <Rubidium> MG: does "Can't build railway station here..." sound familiar?
21:52:30  <MG> That's it.....
21:52:37  <MG> Rub
21:52:56  <MG> ??
21:53:47  <Sacro> Rubidium: "Unable to comply, building in progress"
21:54:03  <MG> Nope, just the first one....
21:54:17  <MG> Can't build railway station
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21:56:12  <Prof_Frink> MG: How many other stations are there in this town?
21:56:42  <MG> it's the whole map...and there are only 3 other players with small networks
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21:58:24  <MG> have a look....the server is Ilse of discovery and just join MG transport...
21:58:40  <Mirrakor> which are the most important signals? and which signals do I've to place in front and after a fork?
21:58:49  <Mirrakor> (two way railway system)
21:59:02  <mrfrenzy> you need to read the signal guide on wiki mirrakor
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21:59:47  <Mirrakor> I did - but I'm not much smarter :D
21:59:53  <Mirrakor> there seems to be so many different signals :D
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22:00:18  <Yexo> MG, I just joined your company, and I can build railway stations as normal
22:00:22  <mrfrenzy> you have regular signals, and you have presignals
22:00:31  <jez9999> there are 3 types of presignal
22:00:36  <jez9999> entry, exit, and combo
22:00:37  <mrfrenzy> presignals are three parts, entry, exit and combo
22:00:45  <mrfrenzy> I'll let jez9999 talk so I can sleep ;)
22:00:50  *** dih is now known as anhedral
22:00:51  <jez9999> no no you talk
22:00:54  <jez9999> i wasnt going any firther
22:00:55  <Mirrakor> yes, I got those I think I can even handle a normal train station - but path crossing?
22:00:55  <jez9999> :-)
22:01:04  <Mirrakor> how do I avoid that two trains will crash? :D
22:01:18  <Yexo> Mirrakor, just use normal signals
22:01:19  <jez9999> two trains will NEVER crash unless you make one of them ignore a signal
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22:01:24  <mrfrenzy>
22:01:29  <Yexo> that is, unless you want to priorize one line above the other
22:01:40  <MG> OK, WTF...I still can't and I have other players who can' right by dontfingley or any other city in the middle of the main landmass
22:02:04  <Yexo> See, there is "dutfingley central" now
22:02:12  <Mirrakor> Yexo: so the normal signals are enough? (I placed them all along the line)
22:02:20  <Yexo> yep
22:02:23  *** lobster_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
22:03:44  <Rubidium> :O my train's even making a (small) profit
22:03:50  <MG> Ok, I can't explain this, I still can't build... others can't either...I have reset several companies too and unjoined and rejoined this company...
22:03:59  *** hylje [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:04:06  <MG> I see that...I'm still locked up though....
22:04:21  <Yexo> MG: is very usefull
22:04:55  <MG> I'm no the signal guy LOL
22:06:06  <Mirrakor> hm, does the combo signal reach to the next signal or is it limited somehow? (i.e. 10 tiles?)
22:06:34  <MG> Well, I'm going to restart the server... I can't think what else to do...I'll have to see if this happens again. It's the first time I've had ANY problems with multiplayer...
22:07:17  <MG> Thanks for the input guys and keep your ears open to see if anyone else has this issue...Cheers! :D
22:07:31  <Yexo> it's not limited
22:08:52  *** jp [] has quit [Quit: jp]
22:09:51  <MG> It's my client, not the server,....
22:11:36  <Mirrakor> woooh - the signals work - awsome! :D
22:12:17  <MG> Verified, I restarted my client and it's fine now.... one for the books...
22:12:32  <MG> Later guys and thanks as always
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22:16:26  <Mirrakor> there's a city which won't let me build a bus stop - what can I do and why is this?
22:17:02  <Rubidium> tsss... and now he's destroying his company that's making quite a lot of money
22:17:04  <mrfrenzy> you need to increase the rating
22:17:23  <mrfrenzy> buy having frequent visits to your current staions
22:17:29  <mrfrenzy> or building trees
22:17:38  <mrfrenzy> the important part is *not* to demolish trees
22:17:43  <mrfrenzy> you can also bribe em
22:18:41  <Mirrakor> I build a tunnel - could that be why?
22:19:20  <Mirrakor> can I see my rating somewhere btw?
22:19:47  <mrfrenzy> click the town name
22:19:51  <jez9999> Mirrakor: have you actually visited
22:20:00  <Mirrakor> jez9999: yes
22:20:02  <jez9999> or did you just come on this computer and find 'Openttd'?
22:21:06  <Mirrakor> no jez9999 I visited and I even read quite a few wiki pages - (also the tutorial of course) - but as you see the game can be really complexe
22:22:14  <Rubidium> Mirrakor: want to know something complex? Try YAPF :)
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22:23:12  <Mirrakor> that was one of the path finding things - right?
22:23:25  <Rubidium> yes
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22:45:40  <Mirrakor> yeah I'm starting to like my railway system :D
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23:24:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12488 /trunk/src/ (27 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split order.h into order_base.h and order_func.h.
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