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Log for #openttd on 29th June 2008:
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00:00:50  <ccfreak2k> The actual contents don't get any bigger/smaller with the window size.
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00:02:04  <TiberiusTeng> did you called ClientSizeChanged() and UpdateWindows() ?
00:02:38  <ccfreak2k> I called
00:02:53  <ccfreak2k> blitter->ClientSizeChanged()
00:02:59  <ccfreak2k> Then MarkWholeScreenDirty()
00:04:11  <ccfreak2k> UpdateWindows() isn't in opengl.hpp...
00:04:13  <ccfreak2k> Is that elsewhere?
00:04:58  <TiberiusTeng> windows.cpp :P
00:05:06  <TiberiusTeng> ahh, window.cpp
00:06:32  <ccfreak2k> I called UpdateWindows(), and there was no change.
00:07:38  <ccfreak2k> I'm gonna give up for now.
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00:15:07  <ccfreak2k> Well, it works, so long as you don't make the window's vertical size any larger than where it's initially set at. :)
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01:20:03  <Scrotolazer> hi guys
01:20:32  <Scrotolazer> just trying to play a multyplayer game of open ttd... every game i enter is paused, any ideas?
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01:28:27  <fjb> Maybe they are paused over night. Or they are on autopause while there are no active players.
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01:30:11  <ccfreak2k> Scrotolzer doesn't count as an active player? :)
01:35:38  <fjb> Depends if he is joining a company or just watching.
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02:24:09  <ccfreak2k> There.
02:24:13  <ccfreak2k> I fixed the sdlgl driver.
02:24:44  <ccfreak2k> The only known bug so far is pre-baked resolutions not being selectable.
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03:31:47  <ccfreak2k> Any devs around familiar with blitters and what-not?
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04:18:32  <ccfreak2k> sdlgl makes openttd a lot more smooth than the standard sdl driver.
04:18:40  <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng will be pleased.
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05:56:13  <ccfreak2k> If I'm interpreting callgrind's data correctly, then the opengl blitter has a hell of a lot less CPU overhead than the 32bpp-anim blitter.
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06:49:09  <TiberiusTeng> :)
06:49:19  <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, can I have your diff please ? :D
06:49:37  <ccfreak2k> I'm not sure how to make one.
06:50:20  <hylje> what version control system do you use
06:50:38  <ccfreak2k> SVN.
06:51:02  <hylje> do you keep your changes on your working copy
06:51:06  <TiberiusTeng> mercurial
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06:51:28  <TiberiusTeng> it's much better if you can diff against a tree patched with my opengl patch
06:51:33  <ccfreak2k> I just checked out whatever revision opengl was based on and started hacking at that.
06:51:41  <TiberiusTeng> with mercurial it's really easy to do ...
06:51:49  <hylje> ye, mercurial or git are better for distributed development
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06:53:07  <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, check out the callgrind png I linked to in my post.
06:53:21  <TiberiusTeng> oh I just saw that
06:53:25  <TiberiusTeng> it's amazing ...
06:53:46  <ccfreak2k> Turns out it really IS useful after all.
06:54:16  <TiberiusTeng> actually I didn't profiled it along with 32bpp-anim under win32 yet, just FELT the difference :p
06:54:39  <ccfreak2k> Well, I could definitely feel the difference in my Slackware box.
06:54:49  <ccfreak2k> Anything above 800x600 was all jerky.
06:54:56  <TiberiusTeng> that's why I said that the bottleneck's not at blitter anymore
06:55:07  <TiberiusTeng> try load some openttdcoop savegames and it's still laggy when zoomed out
06:55:18  <TiberiusTeng> but I can't isolate the bottleneck anymore
06:55:45  <TiberiusTeng> (nah, don't tell me it's that MD5 causing delay ... for a long enough game it shouldn't be an issue)
06:56:04  <ccfreak2k> The callgrind profiling was done at the main menu.
06:56:33  <ccfreak2k> Ok.
06:56:42  <ccfreak2k> Now, how do I diff two directories recursively?
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06:56:57  <TiberiusTeng> something like diff -U5 -r
06:57:15  <TiberiusTeng> ahh, try learn mercurial, you'll definitively love it. :D
06:57:39  <planetmaker> with svn you just call "diff > blubber.diff" in your root dir of that checkout
06:57:47  <hylje> svn diff
06:57:58  <planetmaker> ye
06:58:07  <TiberiusTeng> but I wish him diff against a tree patched with my opengl diff ...
06:58:08  <hylje> `diff` is a different tool
06:58:20  <TiberiusTeng> is svn capable of doing that ? :p
06:58:27  <planetmaker> :)
06:58:36  <planetmaker> my kdesvn is
06:58:41  <hylje> that kind of diffing produces whatever changes were done to the working copy
06:58:48  <planetmaker> I know, hylje
06:58:49  <ccfreak2k> How do I "apply" a diff again?
06:58:50  <ccfreak2k> :|
06:58:59  <planetmaker> patch <p0 blubber.diff
06:59:01  <hylje> patch -p0 -i foo.diff
06:59:19  <planetmaker> shit. I should go, have breakfast.
06:59:25  <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, can I copy that callgrind screenshot to my server and publish it on my blog ?
06:59:28  <planetmaker> patch -p0 < foo.diff
06:59:29  <TiberiusTeng> :D
06:59:40  <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, ok.
07:00:12  <ccfreak2k> Ugh.
07:00:19  <ccfreak2k> This diff I made has a bunch of crap in it.
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07:01:23  <planetmaker> TiberiusTeng: any special hardware requirements for your opengl blitter patch?
07:02:42  <TiberiusTeng> hmm like my first post about it said, GeForce 6100+ or RadeOn 9550+
07:02:54  <TiberiusTeng> since it uses fragment programs (pixel shaders)
07:04:48  <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, why don't I just tar the three files I changed?
07:05:07  <TiberiusTeng> uh, yes, it's a solution too :p
07:05:12  <planetmaker> hm... :( I guess, I have too old hardware :(
07:05:19  <ccfreak2k> Well, you already HAVE your changes with opengl.
07:05:22  <ccfreak2k> I just tacked on sdlgl.
07:05:45  <TiberiusTeng> planetmaker, do glxinfo and see if you got GL_ARB_fragment_program in it
07:06:18  <TiberiusTeng> that's the minimum requirement ...
07:06:48  <TiberiusTeng> (actually you still can RUN it without this extension, but you won't have company colors, re-colored strings, etc ... a little meaningless to play :p)
07:06:58  <planetmaker> :)
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07:07:31  <Krol> !password
07:07:38  <ccfreak2k> http://ccfreak2k.loliserv.org/sdlgl.tar.bz2
07:07:48  <ccfreak2k> I see no reason why it shouldn't work in win32, but I haven't tried it.
07:07:51  <ccfreak2k> Have fun. :)
07:08:03  <TiberiusTeng> I think display cards in ~2 years have these support
07:08:06  <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, thanks
07:08:17  <Krol> sorry, wrong channel :)
07:08:47  <TiberiusTeng> and the 'entry level' ones supporting GL_ARB_fragment_program and GL_ATI_draw_buffers cost under USD  here in Taiwan now
07:10:11  <ccfreak2k> Also TiberiusTeng, I didn't add sdlgl shit to VC projects, so it'll only build using make unless someone adds them to *.proj.
07:10:41  <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, it will be 'auto-generated' once you put it in sources.list
07:10:58  <planetmaker>  Chipsatz-Modell:	GMA 950 <-- is probably therefor not possible on my laptop :(
07:10:58  <planetmaker> (intel integrated graphics)
07:11:35  <ccfreak2k> planetmaker, the Intel i900 series supports pixel shaders, so it should support OpenGL's fragment programs as well.
07:11:53  <TiberiusTeng> ... would you like to test for us ? I think it can do correct colors, albeit without palette animation.
07:12:15  <TiberiusTeng> seems it supports GL_ARB_fragment_shader but not GL_ATI_draw_buffers ...
07:12:17  <planetmaker> hm... then I should give it a try :)
07:12:38  <TiberiusTeng> but I don't know whether it'll really faster :P
07:12:42  <ccfreak2k> Also TiberiusTeng, I did some testing with sdlgl. SDL_VIDEORESIZE isn't triggered when a pre-baked resolution is chosen, but it IS triggered when the window is resized.
07:12:55  <TiberiusTeng> my 855GME in notebook is not actually faster
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07:13:12  <planetmaker> hehe :)
07:13:16  <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, yes, I'm just thinking to block that dropdown menu in win32gl blitter
07:13:35  <ccfreak2k> I actually had some combination of code that did that, but I dunno why.
07:13:46  <ccfreak2k> You chose a resolution, and it just...didn't do anything.
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07:14:13  <ccfreak2k> Changing between fullscreen and windowed works, though.
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07:15:46  <TiberiusTeng> then it's ok for now I think ...
07:16:46  <TiberiusTeng> if you do want to support resolution changing, you'll need to re-create the context, and release all textures to get them reloaded into the new context.
07:17:26  <TiberiusTeng> I think the way newgrf_gui.cpp reloads all grf's could help :p
07:18:54  <ccfreak2k> I was trying to track down what exactly was different between using pre-baked resolutions and resizing the window.
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07:19:01  <ccfreak2k> Different calls were being made, but I dunno where.
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07:23:04  <ccfreak2k> This is why I like VisualStudio.
07:23:11  <ccfreak2k> I can figure out where a function is. :/
07:30:39  <TiberiusTeng> I think you have Kdevelop or Anjuta at hand ? :p
07:32:05  <ccfreak2k> I have Kdevelop yes, but there's no project files for it.
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07:34:00  <TiberiusTeng> perhaps you can write a script to generate a project file from source.list ...
07:34:08  <TiberiusTeng> that's how OpenTTD deal with VS project files now
07:34:22  <TiberiusTeng> using script/generate or script/generate.vbs
07:35:52  <ccfreak2k> I don't see it.
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07:36:32  <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, if you have time, could you callgrind it again, with some openttdcoop savegame loaded, and zoom out 8x at a city for ~10 minutes ?
07:36:44  <ccfreak2k> Oh, it's in projects/
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07:36:59  <ccfreak2k> Do you have one such openttdcoop saved game?
07:37:22  <TiberiusTeng> http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_91_-_100
07:37:57  <TiberiusTeng> I often test with #96
07:38:02  <TiberiusTeng> but your taste may differ :p
07:38:10  <ccfreak2k> I have no preference.
07:38:23  <ccfreak2k> I guess the more "going on" on the screen, the better.
07:38:35  <ccfreak2k> Hmm, I can't reach openttdcoop.org.
07:39:25  <yorick> time-out
07:39:44  <yorick> it says
07:39:46  <ccfreak2k> --- openttdcoop.org ping statistics ---
07:39:46  <ccfreak2k> 48 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 47029ms
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07:39:59  <TiberiusTeng> hmm
07:40:13  <TiberiusTeng> wait, I'll pack these GRFs and the savegame for you
07:40:18  <ccfreak2k> Also, is 8x the furthest zoom?
07:40:39  <yorick> yes
07:41:28  <TiberiusTeng> 32bpp blitters would easily come down to 2 spf on my computer
07:41:39  <TiberiusTeng> if zoomed out 8x at such a savegame ...
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07:42:50  <TiberiusTeng> http://sbt.idv.tw/temp/openttdcoop-grfpack.tar.bz2
07:42:56  <TiberiusTeng> extract this one in openttd/data folder
07:43:16  <TiberiusTeng> (you should actually fetch this from openttdcoop website ... but it's emergency now :P)
07:43:26  <TiberiusTeng> http://sbt.idv.tw/temp/Metropolis,%2012th%20Aug%202201.sav
07:45:04  <ccfreak2k> Any port in a storm.
07:49:30  <ccfreak2k> Which blitters should I test other than opengl and 32bpp-anim?
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07:53:08  <TiberiusTeng> I'm mainly interest in the profiling result of opengl blitter
07:53:22  <Wolf01> hello
07:53:25  <TiberiusTeng> because it can direct us for further optimization ...
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07:54:34  <TiberiusTeng> I guess 32bpp-anim would be VERY SLOW on that one ... remember F1 is the pause key :p
07:57:57  <ccfreak2k> You have no idea how excrutiatingly slow valgrind makes openttd run.
07:59:01  <ccfreak2k> It's taking at LEAST ten seconds per frame on 32bpp-anim right now.
07:59:09  <ccfreak2k> Closer to about 30.
08:00:44  <ccfreak2k> I don't think it's moved at all since I turned instrumenting on.
08:00:52  <ccfreak2k> Wait, it just did.
08:00:55  <ccfreak2k> After about two minutes..
08:01:32  <yorick> it helps to turn off animation for that one
08:03:08  <TiberiusTeng> :PP
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08:05:31  <ccfreak2k> Bear in mind that it's running at about 1500x1100.
08:06:13  <hylje> You now visualize a bear running at you
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08:48:54  <TiberiusTeng> ok, it builds on my mingw environment ...
08:48:57  <TiberiusTeng> time for diff file!
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08:51:31  <ccfreak2k> Does it run in Windows?
08:51:58  <TiberiusTeng> I dunno, too lazy to get/build SDL myself ...
08:51:59  <yorick> yes
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09:04:07  <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, the profiling is finished.
09:04:25  <ccfreak2k> Instrumentation encompassed only idling at furthest zoom using the saved game you provided.
09:05:40  <ccfreak2k> 32bpp-anim and 32bpp-optimized had 48.52 and 50.70 respectively in self in the function DeleteEntryFromSpriteCache.
09:06:44  <ccfreak2k> Both were followed by 15.81 and 16.59 in SpriteLoaderGrf::LoadSprite.
09:07:16  <TiberiusTeng> ahh ... the spritecache is thrashing ...
09:07:52  <ccfreak2k> 8bpp-optimized had its highest self in ViewportDoDraw at 19.18.
09:08:19  <ccfreak2k> This was followed by Blitter_8bppOptimized::Draw with 11.23.
09:09:01  <TiberiusTeng> perhaps changing sprite_cache_size in openttd.conf will relieve them a bit (I thik maximum allowed is 16 or so)
09:09:03  <ccfreak2k> sdlgl's highest was ViewportDoDraw, with 21.96, followed by GfxMainBlitter at 10.69.
09:09:16  <TiberiusTeng> 8bpp-optimized is still the best performer
09:09:32  <ccfreak2k> If you have Kcachegrind, you can take a look at the data yourself.
09:09:33  <TiberiusTeng> but it won't do 32bpp rendering ... that's its main drawback
09:09:45  <TiberiusTeng> I don't have linux machines around :Q
09:09:54  <TiberiusTeng> but I'll try to gprof myself
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09:14:36  <TiberiusTeng> ccfreak2k, I've updated the post with your sdlgl driver :D
09:14:45  <ccfreak2k> Heh, 1.86 self was spent in one function of fglrx.
09:17:11  <ccfreak2k> Oh btw, I dunno if I told you, but when I added --with-sdlgl to config.whatever, I didn't add any SDL checking code, so it'll happily try to compile it without SDL.
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09:21:38  <TiberiusTeng> hmm ...
09:22:03  <TiberiusTeng> I don't think it's a big problem now ... perhaps just make it depend on the check done by with_sdl.
09:22:54  <TiberiusTeng> since your profiling was capped by DeleteEntryFromSpriteCache and LoadSprite, I think it would be better to change sprite_cache_size and do it again, if you're interested in it ...
09:23:07  <ccfreak2k> I couldn't make sense of code, so I just added it in as a standard option.
09:23:10  <TiberiusTeng> actually 32bpp-optimized/32bpp-anim is very usable if sprite_cache_size is large enough :P
09:23:33  <yorick> it then goes slurping RAM instead of harddisk load
09:23:44  <TiberiusTeng> yep, kind of
09:24:01  <TiberiusTeng> I think I'll move my focus to some signaling work from now ... :p
09:24:17  <yorick> good
09:24:38  <TiberiusTeng> and to code for Taiwan Railways Set my friend painted
09:24:48  <yorick> less good :-P
09:25:47  <TiberiusTeng> :P
09:26:05  <TiberiusTeng> oh, by the way, what does 'Stolen Trees' and 'Stolen Water' mean? are they NewGRFs ?
09:26:14  <ccfreak2k> Yes.
09:26:18  <TiberiusTeng> just found it mentioned in the forum ...
09:26:24  <ccfreak2k> Stolen Trees adds more realistic-looking trees.
09:26:38  <TiberiusTeng> then there's no 'built-in' work to do :P
09:27:23  <TiberiusTeng> http://siplab.ntype.tw/E1000.png
09:28:13  <TiberiusTeng> http://picasaweb.google.com/tiberius.teng/TaiwanRailwayVehicles/photo#5157538337516395746
09:28:34  <Ammler> realistic isn't the right word for stolen trees, they are a little bit too big.
09:28:44  <Ammler> but they are indeed nice.
09:29:10  <ccfreak2k> Ok, "more realistic-looking". :)
09:29:18  <Ammler> never heard of stolen water...
09:29:27  <TiberiusTeng> I wonder why they're named 'Stolen' ... stolen from what ?
09:29:31  <ccfreak2k> Neither have I.
09:29:44  <Ammler> stolen from a beta test.
09:30:26  <TiberiusTeng> of a big set ? :Q
09:30:28  <Ammler> SAC gave them out to test and they got around without permission until she released them as stolen trees.
09:30:37  <TiberiusTeng> that doesn't sound good to me ...
09:30:44  <TiberiusTeng> ha!
09:31:14  <TiberiusTeng> so this is how it goes on ... interesting
09:32:36  <TiberiusTeng> how to change the sprite displayed in the vehicle purchasing view ? with Action 2 ?
09:32:36  <Ammler> but where can I see stolen water?
09:32:47  <TiberiusTeng> I dunno ...
09:32:59  <yorick> Ammler: steal Leppka's water, voila!
09:33:16  <Ammler> OpenGFX didn't afaik
09:33:32  <Ammler> so who did?
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09:43:10  <ccfreak2k> TiberiusTeng, update the post.
09:43:20  <ccfreak2k> The opengl blitter is no longer win32-specific.
09:43:31  <ccfreak2k> Well, not that there's sdlgl.
09:44:30  <TiberiusTeng> ahh yes :)
09:46:15  <TiberiusTeng> done.
09:49:47  <ccfreak2k> Also, fullscreen mode DOES work with sdlgl, at least in my testing.
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10:13:44  <ccfreak2k> There.
10:14:03  <ccfreak2k> I redid the instrumentation with a bigger sprite cache and a smaller viewport
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10:24:34  <TiberiusTeng> how does it show ?
10:24:59  <TiberiusTeng> what did it show ? (my bad English)
10:27:26  <ccfreak2k> Blitter_32bppAnim::Draw is top now on 32bpp-anim.
10:27:29  <ccfreak2k> With 14.44.
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12:17:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... should i dare rebooting?
12:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> someone pray for me ;)
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12:20:39  <fjb> Hwllo
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12:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it forgot to update the grub entry for the new kernel...
12:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so glad grub has filename completition ;)
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13:03:03  <fjb> Is there a way to find all trains with an invalid order?
13:04:02  <frosch123> You mean except waiting for the news?
13:04:12  <fjb> Yes. :-)
13:04:26  <frosch123> no - not that I know of.
13:04:44  <fjb> I want to fix it before I get news that something went wrong.
13:05:26  <fjb> I'm rearanging some depots.
13:07:06  <frosch123> You can access the vehicle which have the depot in their order as long as you haven't yet removed it
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13:07:53  <fjb> I know. But I had to remove that depot before I could rebuild the station entry...
13:08:41  <frosch123> You could assign them to a intermediate depot...
13:08:55  <fjb> I will have to look at the orders of every train that goes to that station.
13:09:47  <fjb> Hm, some placeholder order... That could be the solution next time.
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13:11:08  <fjb> Could be also helpful if a vehicle could be part of more than one group at a time.
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13:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that'll cause serious headaches ;)
13:19:14  <Eddi|zuHause> like for example with autoreplace
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13:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... kde4 doesn't like their applications maximized
13:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> when i maximize an app, then minimize [to tray] or close it and open it again, it's not maximized anymore
13:21:13  <fjb> Hm, that headaches already exists. Think about the all vehicles group...
13:21:38  * fjb is still using kde3.
13:22:10  <fjb> My depots have a tendency to collect trains.
13:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm using kde3 as well, but i tested some kde4 apps
13:22:34  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Works fine here
13:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hunters and collectors, it's the very foundation of humanity ;)
13:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: which application/environment/action?
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13:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ktorrent 3 does not have RSSFeed yet...
13:25:22  <fjb> So depots are human...
13:25:42  <Prof_Frink> Everything/KDE4.1beta2/maximising/minimising/closing/opening/restoring on sessionn start...
13:25:44  <fjb> But they are not using ktorrent... :)
13:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's because of kwin4 that yours work
13:27:26  <fjb> Hm, 10 trains sitting in a depot, fearing the world outside...
13:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i run kde3, when i maximise ksudoku, close it, open it again, it is not maximised and very small size
13:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> when i maximize ktorrent, minimize to tray, open it again -> not maximized either
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13:35:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never seen so many people mentioned in a doctor who intro ;)
13:36:23  <Prof_Frink> Yeah, it was quite impressive
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13:38:24  <Alberth> fjb: trains in a depot can only leave when no other train wants the block where the depot is in.
13:39:52  <fjb> Alberth: I know. The problem with that depot was that the trains got faster into that depot than they had a chance to get out of it.
13:41:28  <Alberth> Lucky you have a finite number of trains! Maybe we should have a RORO depot? :P
13:43:16  <fjb> Roro depots would be fine. Even better if only the locomotive would to to the depot without the long train... But that is another story.
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13:45:49  <Alberth> wagons need servicing too
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13:47:09  <fjb> But not that often.
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14:03:24  <Alberth> What a fun that would be! Bring wagons to platform, decouple locomotive, service it while loading the wagons, attach it at other end, bring wagons to a hill, decouple! Who needa a locomotive to pull wagons to other station? :P
14:08:50  <fjb> Yes, that is what I was thinking of. Or use a second locomotive at the and of the train only to push it up a steep hill.
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14:25:57  <Eddi|zuHause> or switch between electric and diesel/steam traction
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14:30:27  <fjb> A diesel shunter for the mineral loading station or gantry cranes...
14:31:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, a Köf III would be lovely ;)
14:33:19  <fjb> Yes. Would be fun to watch.
14:33:50  <fjb> But that would also require station tiles with working switches.
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14:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you would somehow limit the shunting area by special signals
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14:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so everything inside that ring would be a "station", the current definition of "station tile" would then become "platform tile"
14:36:05  <fjb> What would that require? A complete rewrite of the the oders system and pathfinder?
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14:37:31  <Eddi|zuHause> not really, the shunting process would need new kind of orders, and the pathfinder would need to be able to turn around on certain places
14:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> trains can only turn around while in shunting mode
14:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and an extension to YAPP path reservations
14:39:11  <Alberth> is a number of wagons without a locomotive not going to be a problem?
14:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> shunting reservation (two directions)
14:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no, wagon groups have orders like "wait for engine [from group] X"
14:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> and engines have orders like "pick up wagon set Y"
14:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the easiest shunting order would be "go backwards (push/pull)"
14:42:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the next would be "go backwards (reposition engine)"
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14:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> a third use would be "detach wagons, go to engine yard, service/wait for different train, attach wagons"
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14:46:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really have an idea how complicated rearranging freight trains would be with such orders, though
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14:53:18  <peter1138> write it
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15:01:48  <fjb> Really, sounds good. Write it. I will definitely use it.
15:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it's an insanely complex subject :p
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15:03:26  <Doorslammer|BRSet> :D  Did I hear unhitching?
15:09:51