Log for #openttd on 9th August 2008:
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00:19:06  <Bjarni> goodnight everybody
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02:02:22  <ashaw> hello
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02:05:41  <Belugas> hello ashaw
02:11:59  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: belugas * r14027 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h gfx_type.h): -Codechange: Document a bit the DoDrawString function while removing yet som more magic numbers and one "false" colour
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02:12:45  <Belugas> wow... two of you!
02:12:56  <alexisshaw> i am interested in making a train for logic
02:13:31  <alexisshaw> needs to be fast but have no capacity to carry anything
02:13:42  <alexisshaw> and not be ablr to have any cargo
02:13:54  <alexisshaw> should work on normal tracks
02:14:10  <alexisshaw> could i do this with newGRF
02:14:34  <alexisshaw> ?
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02:15:12  <Belugas> just use a locomotive then
02:15:26  <alexisshaw> needs to go at plus 1000km/h
02:15:36  <alexisshaw> with verry high acceleration.
02:15:39  <Belugas> ho...
02:15:52  <Belugas> well... dunno...
02:16:02  <Belugas> have you checked ttdpatch's wiki?
02:16:13  <alexisshaw> yeah not to easy to read
02:16:26  <Belugas> yeah well... welcome to the club :)
02:16:40  <alexisshaw> i think it can be done but i have no idea how tp do it.
02:17:42  <alexisshaw> who would know?
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02:20:30  <Belugas> for sure, Dalestan or michael blunck, from  ttdp
02:20:43  <Belugas> i am trying to find out looking at the sources, right now
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02:26:42  <Belugas> yeah, i think it can be done
02:27:09  <Belugas> just that do not go over 65536, else you will have a simple wagon
02:27:46  <Belugas> so, basically, you need to specify some properties to your new train
02:27:52  <Belugas> look at this page:
02:28:21  <Belugas> mainly prop 08, 09
02:28:30  <ashaw> not 00?
02:28:38  <Belugas> maybe 14, 15 too
02:28:40  <Belugas> 00?
02:29:02  <Belugas> date of intro?
02:29:11  <Belugas> quite irrelevant, i'd say
02:29:23  <ashaw> sorry me missunderstood.
02:33:26  <Belugas> it's ok :)
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02:33:49  <Belugas> newgrf is not somthing that can be understood in a few minutes
02:34:24  <Belugas> Dalestan said once thta you should read the whole spech and then you'd be able to start working
02:34:29  <Belugas> a bit extremist,
02:34:58  <Belugas> but stillm he has a point in the sens that you need to have a bigger picture than just your immediat interest
02:37:06  <Belugas> ho ho...
02:37:15  <Belugas> did i broke something?
02:39:23  <Belugas> mmh...
02:39:25  <Belugas> i did
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02:48:06  <Belugas> yeah... thank you very much!!
02:48:20  <Belugas> been a pleasure for me too !!
02:48:22  <Belugas> pfff
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02:54:20  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: belugas * r14028 /trunk/src/gfx_func.h: -Fix(r14027): Wrong value for the multiline_skipping. Just the other way around.
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03:06:41  <ashaw> what speech is that
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03:30:29  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: belugas * r14029 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix(r14027): reverting the TC_FROMSTRING back to the magical 0xFE number. Exact meaning will need to be found later.
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08:50:55  <ln> Is the savegame compatibility to be retained forever?
08:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> forever? foreverever?
08:52:33  <Bjarni> ln: it is until announced otherwise
08:53:35  <ln> great. no cool new features coming in a long time then.
08:53:55  <Bjarni> err
08:54:13  <Bjarni> the idea is that you should be able to load old savegames
08:54:27  <Bjarni> you can't take new savegames and load them with old binaries
08:55:24  <Bjarni> the whole idea is that while loading the game should "update" the savegame on load to something the new binary can understand by inserting default values for whatever data is missing in the old savegame
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08:56:51  <Bjarni> like really old savegames all have 256x256 maps. The map size isn't saved in those but when those savegames are loaded today the load function specifies a 256x256 map using the current specifications to do so and it will fill it with the data it can get from the outdated savegame
08:57:03  <Bjarni> and we don't plan to alter this behaviour
08:57:16  <blathijs> I don't see no need, either
08:57:32  <blathijs> ln: Are there features that you see blocked by this compatibility
08:57:34  <blathijs> ?
08:57:38  * blathijs afk
08:57:40  <ln> m'kay.  so when can we expect to have all three terrain types on the same ma?
08:57:42  <ln> p
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08:58:02  <blathijs> ln: Once we decide we want that and update the map array accordingly
08:58:25  <Rubidium> three?
08:58:34  <blathijs> Toyland! (?)
08:59:18  <ln> Rubidium: nobody wants the toyland together with real-world terrain.
08:59:28  <Rubidium> who said toyland?
08:59:29  <Bjarni> <ln> m'kay.  so when can we expect to have all three terrain types on the same ma? <-- even if/when this is possible we should still be able to load old savegames
08:59:39  <Rubidium> as it wasn't me who said that
08:59:42  <Bjarni>  <Rubidium> who said toyland? <-- blathijs
08:59:57  <ln> correct
09:00:35  <Bjarni> the tricky part in mixing the terraintypes aren't savegames
09:00:46  <Bjarni> it's the actual map storage in memory
09:01:07  <Rubidium> I thought it was rewriting a gazillion sprite numbers
09:01:21  <ln> a dev here suggested earlier that mixing terraintypes is tricky especially from the savegame compatibility perspective.
09:01:40  <Bjarni> wouldn't we need even more bits to tell terrain type?
09:01:45  <ln> or then i'm remembering something inaccurately. anyway.
09:02:26  <ln> hmmm, ok, everyone seems to have their own opinion of why it would be tricky.
09:03:40  <Bjarni> <ln> a dev here suggested earlier that mixing terraintypes is tricky especially from the savegame compatibility perspective. <-- say it works for new games and they can load/save then loading old savegames should be a matter of making a table to convert to the new format
09:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> how should mixing terrain types be more savegame-compatibility-problematic than any other newgrf feature?
09:03:51  <Bjarni> that table would likely end up being huge though
09:04:28  <Rubidium> not to mention that it breaks a few major assumptions made by NewGRFs
09:04:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean adding more [newgrf] tile types would be technically not much more than adding railtypes
09:07:57  <Eddi|zuHause> little side note: before you add tile types from other "climates" i'd rather see the temperate climate extended by stuff like rock tiles, that do not simply disappear when you clear them
09:08:43  * ln wants underwater tunnels
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09:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember a patch...
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09:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> why is there no "show next changeset" button on
09:29:20  <Rubidium> because there is no "next"?
09:29:46  <Rubidium> or rather because it's a directed acyclic graph
09:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it could be by time or something...#
09:31:02  <Bjarni> go ahead and write something like for hg
09:31:14  <Bjarni> if you do then feel free to give it to me ;)
09:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause> this has noting to do with
09:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i just want a web page where i can browse subsequent changesets...
09:32:02  <Bjarni> ahh
09:33:07  <Rubidium> then don't use hg
09:34:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not seen a changeset view on at all
09:34:42  <Rubidium> then start by reading the post about the server changes on the forum
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09:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> then maybe put that in the topic ;)
09:36:56  <fonso> /fonso
09:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly redirect the old domains to the new one
09:39:06  <Rubidium> that'd break checkout out trunk over http
09:40:07  <ln> fascinating:
09:40:08  <ln> Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
09:40:08  <ln> /dev/sdg5             430G  -12G  441G   -  /media/WD 1
09:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> indeed.
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09:43:40  <Bjarni> ln: you remind me of the time when I saw two guys moving a Warcraft 2 map from one computer to another one on a floppy disk (this was a while ago). I wrote to the disk just fine but when the other guy tried to copy from the disk to the HD it failed. It needed an additional 1,8 GB HD space
09:44:09  <Bjarni> everything worked after reformatting the disk... somehow it was corrupted
09:44:29  <fonso> ln, could it be the fs thinks the partition is of a different size than it actually is?
09:44:36  <fonso> Then you got a problem now ...
09:45:24  <ln> the disk is breaking down, but still quite an unexpected outcome.
09:46:01  <fonso> well, ok, different problem, but surely funny to watch :)
09:47:20  <peter1138> Anyone familiar with Google SketchUp?
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09:49:01  * fonsinchen yawns
09:49:03  <peter1138> I have a nice square layout of my computer room, but there is a corner with non-square walls. I have the lengths, but not the angles. How do I draw them?
09:49:40  * fonsinchen doesn't know. Yawning doesn't indicate knowledge ...
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09:50:38  <Bjarni> peter1138: you have 3 square corners, right?
09:50:48  <Bjarni> and the lengths of all walls
09:50:57  <Bjarni> start by drawing those
09:51:02  <peter1138> Er, two. They're drawn.
09:51:27  <peter1138> I think I'm going to draw a circle of one length, draw a line for the other, then remove the circle.
09:51:32  <fonsinchen> Are you sure you have enough data to actually determine the outcome
09:51:41  <Bjarni> then draw the walls connecting to those two corners
09:51:52  <Bjarni> since you know the lengths you know the endpoints
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09:53:00  <Bjarni> I guess you have a 5th corner you need to place now, right?
09:53:11  <Bjarni> the circle idea is good but you don't have to draw full circles
09:53:17  <peter1138> Not totally accurate but the circles worked.
09:53:37  <Bjarni> it would be accurate if you did it correctly
09:53:54  <Bjarni> but then you have to measure correctly in the first place and take great care while drawing
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09:55:11  <Bjarni> but you will never get 100% precision. The question is how accurate is accurate enough?
09:55:17  <peter1138> Exactly.
09:55:28  <Bjarni> this is always a good place to start. What is actually an acceptable goal?
09:55:40  <peter1138> Hmm, I *think* the corner between them is right angle.
09:55:58  <peter1138> But it's not on my drawing :(
09:56:11  <Bjarni> hehe
09:56:25  <Bjarni> you know the circles cross at two locations
09:56:42  <Bjarni> you have to figure out which one is the correct one
09:57:11  <peter1138> Heh, I only used one circle ;)
09:57:34  <peter1138> Problem is the circle is actually just polygon with lots of sides, but not enough.
09:57:55  <peter1138> 24 lines, so it could be quite a way out.
09:58:02  <Bjarni> oh you are drawing on computer
09:59:16  * Bjarni thought it was a hand drawn map of the room
09:59:17  <peter1138> Oh... yes, heh...
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09:59:24  <peter1138> Google SketchUp.
09:59:29  <peter1138> It's a 3D plan of the room.
09:59:40  <mazling> moo. sourceforge says openttd is an invalid project *_*
09:59:54  <mazling> i can't download anything!
10:01:17  <peter1138> Bjarni, once it's laid out properly I can plan building fitted desks :D
10:01:40  <Bjarni> shit
10:01:45  <Bjarni> SF hates us
10:02:00  <peter1138> It hates everyone, it's not personal.
10:02:08  <mazling> in fact sf is saying that about any project i try to get to, nvm :|
10:02:18  <Bjarni> no
10:02:23  <Bjarni> freecol has the same issue
10:02:34  <Bjarni> sf is borked right now
10:02:39  <mazling> seems so
10:02:57  <Bjarni> database crash or something
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10:03:37  <Wolf01> hello
10:03:38  <Bjarni> I can't log in either
10:03:48  <Bjarni> they are really borked right now
10:05:23  <Bjarni> hello Wolf01
10:07:22  <peter1138> Bah, I'll have to fudge it.
10:07:41  <peter1138> That's the problem with not being able to measure complete distances, only bits added up.
10:10:40  <Bjarni> the resolution appears to be too low for your task then
10:11:04  <Bjarni> new idea
10:11:18  <Bjarni> you know the location of all but one corners, right?
10:11:55  <Bjarni> measure the distance from that corner to ALL corners. With enough circles you should be able to get a higher precision of where they all meet
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10:16:44  <peter1138> Resolution isn't a problem, me measuring 100% accurately is.
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10:25:01  <fonsinchen> I got a problem with screenshots:
10:25:15  <fonsinchen> Is that known? I can't find it in flyspray
10:25:35  <Yorick> what is your problem?
10:25:42  <fonsinchen> The red window in the middle
10:25:55  <fonsinchen> It shouldn't be on the screenshot
10:26:08  <Forked> it will be there if you took a screenshot right before that one
10:26:09  <Yorick> you made 2 screenshots next to eachoter?
10:26:17  <fonsinchen> yes
10:26:23  <fonsinchen> ok, I see
10:26:40  <Yorick> but why the pcx?
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10:27:26  <fonsinchen> because I forgot to install libpng-dev
10:27:56  <Yorick> bmp is always better :)
10:28:20  <fonsinchen> It's good enough to show how diagonal leveling works
10:29:18  <fonsinchen> Well, you're right. It must have been the message from the previous shot. Please excuse my stupidity.
10:30:53  * Yorick excuses your stupidity
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10:46:04  <peter1138> Hmm, as far as I can tell it's all measured accurately and drawn accurately, at least to within +- 20mm
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10:46:18  <peter1138> The plan is out to about 100mm :o
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10:50:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you do something wrong ;)
10:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> YAPP code is inconsistent with "ONEWAY" and "NOENTRY"
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11:04:59  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r14030 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h): -Fix (r14027): true != false, also rename the parameter to make 'true' and 'false' more intuitively useable.
11:05:00  <peter1138> You're right, I measured wrongly
11:05:15  <peter1138> Actually it was one measurement where I forgot to add the length of the tape measure :o
11:05:31  <Yorick> "Warning, multi-character constant"
11:06:40  <Yorick> spamming my console with it while compiling...
11:06:57  <guru3> 2>/dev/null will fix taht
11:07:12  <Yorick> what?
11:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yay, i have now two more signal types that behave exactly like PBS signals ;)
11:07:59  <guru3> it wont really fix it, but on linux it would hide the error so you couldnt see it
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11:10:02  <peter1138> Yay!
11:10:08  <Yorick> hmm...getting some other warnings too
11:10:13  <peter1138> It fits to within +- 3 mm now :D
11:10:40  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it fixes the problem of spamming the console ;)
11:10:52  <guru3> *whistles*
11:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> /ignore Yorick
11:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> should have done that a long time ago
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11:11:55  <Yorick> no you shan't
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11:12:35  <Yorick> <-- compile log with clean trunk
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11:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say wrong locale setting (need utf-8)
11:14:32  <peter1138> No, that's his compiling ignoring the switch to ignore the warnings.
11:14:50  <peter1138> *compiler*
11:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> all those "DEP" things don't look normal either...
11:15:24  <Yorick> peter1138: that's is also my compiler erroring on the switch to ignore the warning
11:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> in a proper environment that says "[SRC] DEP CHECK (all files)"
11:16:06  <Yorick> well it has never done that
11:16:11  <Yorick> even when I was on xp
11:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you have never had a proper environment then :p
11:16:32  <Yorick> and those warnings appeared recently
11:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> you just have screwed up. admit it
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11:16:59  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that's just 'makedepend' missing.
11:17:11  <peter1138> If it is, it falls back to the old way.
11:18:17  <Yorick> yesterday, it complained over the grep -m as an invalid argument
11:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> SPR_IMG_SIGNAL_ELECTRIC_OBSOWAY <- how could that pass QM?
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11:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> in the signal GUI is a wrong sprite offset
11:39:56  <peter1138> No, it depends on the drive on left or right setting... obviously :o
11:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the buttons for BSW_SEMAPHORE_PBS_OWAY and BSW_ELECTRIC_PBS_OWAY are one pixel too far left
11:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> not speaking about the pictures on the button
11:42:36  <peter1138> Oh, right.
11:42:45  <Eddi|zuHause> position must be 110, 131
11:42:53  <peter1138> Like the invisibility buttons used to be way out, but nobody complained ;)
11:43:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and other buttons need to be moved accordingly
11:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't actually notice in the GUI, but when going through the YAPP changes to fit my own two buttons there
11:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and it occured odd to me, that the changes there were ... odd
11:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> button width is 22, so offsets would have been changed by 44, but they were changed by 43
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12:04:45  <peter1138> Yeah, I must admit the whole left & right thing confuses me a bit, left & width would be simpler, in some cases.
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12:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i could provide a patch, but that would cause horrible conflicts here :
12:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> :P
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12:15:44  <Eddi|zuHause> err... on flyspray, why can i only select "backend/core" as category?
12:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> err... wrong project was selected (by default?)
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12:22:56  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: already implemented the signal functionality? (I assume you want to do your suggestion from the forums?)
12:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i just added the signals, wanted to look for functionality now ;)
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12:26:26  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause:
12:26:39  <michi_cc> there is still much missing, but the basic functionallity works
12:28:39  <Eddi|zuHause> brianetta said they should be called "advance signals"
12:28:47  <Ammler> YAPP presignals? reserving more then one part?
12:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, basically
12:30:11  <michi_cc> yeah, leo.dict says advance or approach signals. you'll see one comment with approach as advance might be too confusing with the advanced I used otherwise
12:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i noticed that ;)
12:30:36  <michi_cc> but wait a moment, there's a bit missing in the patch
12:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "GetSignalType(tile, TrackdirToTrack(trackdir)) != SIGTYPE_PBS_PRE" <- should probably be put into an inline function
12:33:05  <michi_cc> yeah, it is a draft, you know :)
12:33:32  <Eddi|zuHause> break_on_pbs_signal <- possibly you meant "brake" ;)
12:34:47  <michi_cc> no, I meant break
12:35:32  <michi_cc> neither speed adjustment nor repeatedly checkig for a free track after passing a approach signal is implemented
12:37:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i didn't expect that
12:37:21  <Eddi|zuHause> extending the reservation is the first step
12:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you think excluding "advance" signals from the signal_back_penalty is a desired feature?
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12:42:14  <ccfreak2k> I heard YAPP was put into openttd.
12:42:16  <ccfreak2k> :3
12:42:48  <peter1138> It was.
12:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> long time ago
12:43:04  <peter1138> And it's not been removed yet either :D
12:43:17  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: maybe it is maybe it isn't, but as they are only "helper" signals it is probably okay to exclude them
12:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe ultimately it could be a separate penalty
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12:54:51  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: reload that patch, I made it work better
12:55:24  <michi_cc> a red approach signal isn't stopping trains now
13:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a weird inconsistency that "IsApproachSignal" allows for combo signals, and "HasApproachSignalOnTrack" doesn't
13:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm currently struggling to understand the train_cmd.cpp changes... the rest is "easy" ;)
13:13:55  <michi_cc> you can rename then if that's bothering you
13:14:41  <michi_cc> train_cmd.cpp isn't hard either: first chunk for extending the reservation on an approach signal
13:16:13  <michi_cc> next part overrides that TryPathReserve stops when the path already ends at a safe tile (iow allows for extending to a second signal)
13:17:06  <michi_cc> and final changes so trains will not see a red (actually yellow) approach signal as red and stop
13:18:18  <Eddi|zuHause> why is the variable named "chosen_track" if it's actually a trackbit?
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13:24:42  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: don't ask me, that's ancient code :)
13:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i know ;)
13:26:50  <michi_cc> probably the same reason why Vehicle->u.rail.track is also actually trackbits
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13:35:15  <Wolf01> mmmmh I think I found a bug for PBS
13:35:45  <Wolf01> I placed 2 depots at the sides of a track
13:35:58  <Wolf01> and now trains are waiting for a free path
13:36:07  <Wolf01> trains can enter but can't exit
13:37:56  <Wolf01> now I put a trackpiece going from one depot to the other (perpendicular to the railroad) and trains started to go from one depot to the other and then continued their travel
13:38:40  <Wolf01> mmmh not a bug, but the depot only built one roadbit, not both
13:38:47  <Wolf01> really strange
13:40:02  <Eddi|zuHause> happens when you run out of money when you build the depot
13:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause> then it has not enough money to build all trackbits
13:40:33  <Wolf01> €
13:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes ;)
13:41:03  <Wolf01> I think it has something to do with track reservation
13:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the train won't exit if it can't find a path
13:42:44  <Wolf01> no, I didn't mean that, I know that, I don't know why the depot did'nt place both railbits
13:43:06  <Wolf01> s/'n/n'
13:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there might have been a train there
13:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> a train going diagonal to the other depot
13:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> then it can only place the track that is going parallel to the train
13:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> not the one that would cross the train
13:45:05  <Wolf01> maybe, but there was only one train, and it was already passed from the depot, it was in the next tile
13:45:44  <Wolf01> the only thing I can figure out is that the railbit was reserved
13:46:06  <Wolf01> but is possible to modify reserved tracks
13:46:18  <Wolf01> maybe the depot didn't know that
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13:48:46  <Wolf01> ah another thing, I often get stuck trains at PBS signals, reversed and waiting for a free path, I need to wait for a moment when there aren't so many trains at the intersection and reverse them manually
13:49:45  <Eddi|zuHause> patch wait_for_pbs_path 255 or so
13:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> prevents trains from turning around if they wait too long
13:52:53  <Wolf01> uh, now I noticed that another depot placed in the same direction of the previous didn't have placed the railbit
13:53:56  <Wolf01> I should not place depots when trains are running on the track where I want to put the depot
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13:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... two problems... it does not reserve ahead if it hits a combo signal, and it does reserve ahead at a presignal if the next signal is not a PBS signal
14:00:39  <Eddi|zuHause> <- my current patch
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14:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no debug level for pbs?
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14:11:00  <Ammller> hmm, did ever someone test YAPP with npf?
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14:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not ;)
14:13:42  <Ammller> just wondierign because you patch npf there :-)
14:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that was michi_cc's part
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14:16:27  <peter1138> As far as I'm concerned NPF can be removed.
14:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i think i know the reason
14:18:08  <Ammller> it might be needed by low power maschines?
14:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> when a train hits a normal/combo signal that is already reserved [green], it does not run into the check at all
14:19:04  <Alberth> How can cargo come *from* an unknown destination? (, should be 'from an unknown source' imho. Also much less confusion when we get paxdest in trunk :)
14:19:23  <Gekz> haha
14:19:28  <Gekz> Alberth: good point
14:19:37  <Gekz> unknown destination
14:19:39  <Gekz> means where it's going
14:19:41  <Gekz> destined
14:19:44  <Gekz> source means where it's from
14:19:47  <Gekz> so yes, typo
14:20:06  <Alberth> Should I make a patch for this?
14:20:27  <Gekz> yes
14:20:29  <Gekz> yes you should
14:20:40  <Gekz> say it's endorsed by Gekz, the amateur linguist
14:20:41  <Gekz> :P
14:20:57  <Alberth> (one thing that worries me, do I get paid for my oil ? ) :)
14:21:06  <Gekz> lol
14:21:26  <Gekz> you'd probably get paid the lowest
14:22:10  <Alberth> hmm, too late, already delivered :(
14:22:21  <Gekz> lol.
14:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it used to be a big exploit to delete the source station, and get payed as if delivered from (0,0) in very short time
14:24:00  <Gekz> O.o
14:25:17  <Alberth> (after loading a save game) It does, it seems. I get pound which is too much for just the other oil.
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14:30:26  <peter1138> Yeah, the source tile is remembered.
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14:32:06  <Yorick> shouldn't CMD_PLAYER_CTRL check for the company limit?
14:32:26  <Yorick> currently, it crashes the server if I try to create a new company...
14:32:46  <Yorick> when there are already 8 companies
14:33:23  <Yorick> means I can now go crashing <0.6.2 servers :)
14:34:18  <Yorick> I call that a good way to get server admins to upgrade
14:35:14  <Yorick> FS#533 > patch?
14:36:36  <Alberth> Changing a StringID identifier would be a bad idea eh? (its lang entry now says "STR_UNKNOWN_DESTINATION :unknown destination". If I change the latter to "unknown source" it looks quite wrong)
14:39:41  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: the problem with the combo signals is that they would need a third signal state besides red and green
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14:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i fear that was me trying to introduce a yellow signal state
14:43:33  <Yorick> ooh
14:44:59  <Alberth> How does one make a StringID identifier obsolete?
14:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
14:46:07  <Yorick> ?
14:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the StringIDs come from english.txt
14:46:25  <Yorick> and are changed everytime a string is added
14:46:57  <Alberth> Well: An entry "UNKNOWN_DESTINATION: unknown source" is not being understood as improvement
14:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> soo... nothing apparent broke by adding a "SIGNAL_STATE_YELLOW"
14:47:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: then rename it
14:47:36  <Alberth> So either I must rename UNKNOWN_DESTINATION or create UNKNOWN_SOURCE
14:48:14  <Alberth> The question is, is that allowed, I don't know how such a change is copied to the other language files
14:48:48  <Yorick> Eddi: even not autoreplace?
14:49:17  <Yorick> impossible!
14:49:35  <Yorick> autoreplace is broken on oilrigs with a depot too
14:50:27  <FauxFaux> What's the best way to specify a literal colour to, say, GfxDrawRect? Neither the gfx_type.h#Colours (COLOUR_DARK_BLUE) nor TextColours (TC_SILVER) come out what I mean... :/
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14:51:16  <Yorick> TextColours
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14:51:41  <FauxFaux> Yorick: Hmm? They don't look like what they're called..
14:51:51  <Yorick> hmm
14:51:59  <FauxFaux> TC_DARK_BLUE comes out off-white (silver?).
14:53:34  <Yorick> TC_SILVER?
14:54:50  <FauxFaux> Magenta. ie. totally not working.
14:55:28  <Yorick> TC_MAGENTA?
14:55:37  <FauxFaux> Where is this going? :)
14:55:50  <Yorick> one of them got to match
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14:56:05  <FauxFaux> There must be a sane way to do it. :/
14:56:31  <Alberth> Try it the other way around, use a value, look at the colour, then grep for the right entry using the colour name
14:57:13  <Yorick> or try TC_BLACK
14:57:17  <peter1138> Alberth: Create a new one, as Unknown Destination is needed...
14:57:38  <frosch123> FauxFaux: IIRC GfxDrawRect directly takes palette indices
14:57:58  <Alberth> peter1138: You're thinking ahead :)
14:58:19  <FauxFaux> frosch123: It does seem to call LookupColourInPalette, yeah. Uh oh. :)
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14:59:04  * FauxFaux doesn't know how the pallet stuff works, are there docs anywherE?
14:59:10  <frosch123> FauxFaux: you could use _colour_radient to convert a COLOUR_xxx into a palette value
14:59:23  <frosch123> FauxFaux: try in the doc directory :)
14:59:32  <frosch123> somewhere is a palette.png or similiar
14:59:50  <frosch123> * _colour_gradient
15:00:37  <FauxFaux> There's the TC colour chart.
15:00:56  <FauxFaux> Ah, a gif, too. :)
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15:02:42  <FauxFaux> Whey, thanks peoples.
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15:16:51  <Yorick> is a waypoint seen as MP_RAILWAY, or as MP_STATION?
15:18:13  <glx> Yorick: check docs/landscape.html
15:19:21  <Yorick> ah thanks, should have seen that
15:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so now reservation through a combo signal works, but it does not proceed :(
15:25:09  <Alberth> Hmm, {STATION} is used both in 'from' and in 'to' context. Not a simple patch thus.
15:25:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have cases ;)
15:26:50  <Alberth> I need to create an additional {STATION} text replacement, so string expansion knows to stick 'dest' or 'source' in when a station doesn't exist.
15:26:52  <Yorick>  VehicleEnter_Track is only executed once per tile per vehicle, right?
15:29:58  <Yorick> ah, wrong
15:31:04  <Yorick> at 64 km/h it is called 16 times
15:31:18  <FauxFaux> Sooo.. I've written some code to underline town names in the chat window, and jump to them when you click on them (, .diff), but it's in the chat box's painting code; it's not a real Window and hence doesn't actually get repainted all that often, anyone have the time to suggest a sensible solution? Best I have so far is just marking the area dirty if the cursor is over there.
15:31:53  <Yorick> why would you want to have anything underlines?
15:32:12  <FauxFaux> So you know you can click on it, web-browser style.
15:32:25  <Yorick> animated < anything
15:32:54  <Yorick> just underline it by default
15:33:11  <FauxFaux> Even without the underline, it's still handling the click in the draw stuff, 'cos obviously the chat doesn't recieve mouse events (due to not being a window).
15:34:40  <Yorick> hmm, should that vehicleenter_track be called more than once?
15:34:45  <Yorick> it only enters it once
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15:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik it's called for every movement step
15:44:40  <Yorick> then it's named faulty
15:44:44  <Eddi|zuHause> which is 16 in normal operation
15:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well, for every movement step it checks whether it can enter the next tile
15:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and then take action according to that
15:45:55  <Ammler> known assert: openttd: /home/openttd/svn-public/src/town_map.h:169: bool IsHouseCompleted(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_HOUSE)' failed.
15:45:57  <Ammler> ?
15:46:07  <Yorick> not a known one
15:46:11  <Eddi|zuHause> that's so the train knows the signal state one tile in advance
15:46:27  <Yorick> then is there another function that
15:46:29  <Yorick> is
15:46:38  <Yorick> called every time a train enters a new tile?
15:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i think it is called once per wagon
15:49:46  <Yorick> it is
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15:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand signal states...
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15:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the facts that i think i know:
15:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there are 4 bits for signals per tile
15:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there are possibly 4 signals on a tile, so each bit corresponds to one signal
15:52:18  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: see docs/landscape.h
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15:52:23  <frosch123> err .html
15:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> PBS signals can be only one per trackdir
15:52:27  <Yorick> :D
15:52:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so we potentially have only 2 signals per tile
15:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so in theory we could use 2 bits per signal
15:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> s/trackdir/track/
16:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, i should save the yellow signal state on the opposite trackdir...
16:03:25  <Yorick> I'm working on that blow train horn when crossing waypoint suggestion
16:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> then check how the road crossing sound is made
16:08:48  <Yorick> that's different
16:08:59  <Yorick> the function is called 16 times too
16:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but the sound is only played once
16:09:46  <Yorick> it can only bar once
16:10:09  <Yorick> ;)
16:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's independent from barring... YAPP bars the crossing way in advance, but the sound is still played on train approaching
16:11:10  <Yorick> does it?
16:11:13  <Yorick> "Bars crossing and plays ding-ding sound if not barred already"
16:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i can only tell the behaviour that i witnessed
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16:14:07  <Progman> paxdest is cool, but difficult to get high performance at the stations ;)
16:15:33  <Yorick> paxdest doesn't compile here
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16:17:22  <Progman> because of boost?
16:18:25  <Yorick> no
16:18:40  <Bjarni>
16:18:44  <Yorick> grep: error: -- m invalid argument
16:18:59  <Bjarni> ok, that wasn't spamming the channel with error messages
16:19:17  <Yorick> grep: invalid option -- m
16:19:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you have bad grep
16:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause>   -m, --max-count=NUM       stop after NUM matches
16:20:43  <Gekz> ggrep
16:20:44  <Yorick> grep: unrecognized option `--max-count'
16:20:54  <Gekz> ggrep != grep
16:21:06  <Gekz> Yorick: BSD?
16:21:07  <Gekz> Solaris?
16:21:08  <Bjarni> try grep --version
16:21:12  <Gekz> AIX, HP-UX...
16:21:16  * Gekz explodes.
16:21:20  <Yorick> grep (GNU grep) 2.4.2
16:21:25  <Yorick> Gekz: mingw
16:21:29  <Gekz> Oh.
16:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ancient
16:21:32  <Gekz> MinGW.
16:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i have 2.5.2
16:21:34  <Gekz> it's a lie.
16:21:44  <Bjarni> I have 2.5.1
16:22:02  <Bjarni> I don't even know how old 2.4.2 is
16:22:03  <Forked> hmm, this makes little sense to me.. how come Train 4 in this screenshot does not reserve a path? It might be something obvious I just don't see :)
16:22:06  <Yorick> I'm getting 2.5.3
16:22:18  <Forked> (using the latest TibPP pack..)
16:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: maybe your pathfinder penalties are flawed
16:22:56  <Forked> that might very well be
16:23:03  <Gekz> well I'm going to sleep
16:23:06  <Gekz> good night chaps
16:23:13  <Bjarni> we can't see if both tracks ends up at the same location
16:23:20  <Reemo> what does the random start value do?
16:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> when it finds the path through the reserved train is the shortest, it will wait for it to leave
16:23:23  <Forked> they end up at the same station
16:24:03  <Yorick> ARGH
16:24:10  <Yorick> I got a grep binary package
16:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but the pathfinder does not necessarily realise that
16:24:29  <Yorick> "The application failed to start because libintl3.dll was not found"
16:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause> then get that...
16:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: you can check the pathfinder penalties on the console
16:25:53  <Forked> I deleted the cfg and loaded with a new one, seems to work now
16:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> important may be the ones for reserved track, and for red signals
16:26:15  <Forked> or maybe not
16:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the penalties are saved in the savegame
16:28:51  <Yorick> Eddi: where am I supposed to get that?
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16:29:59  <Forked> dinner.. will look into it later if the problem persists, eddi. thanks :)
16:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Yorick: from where all little dlls come from
16:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause> libintl is part of gettext, i believe
16:31:57  <Yorick> checked that
16:32:00  <Yorick> it isn't
16:33:24  <Yorick> now it wants iconv
16:33:49  <Bjarni> you should be able to avoid that in configure
16:34:07  *** Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: bbl]
16:34:22  <Yorick> Bjarni: it's a precompiled grep
16:34:29  <Bjarni> oh
16:34:36  <Bjarni> then you can't avoid this need :p
16:35:19  <Yorick> now it wants pcre3.dll
16:36:03  * Yorick just noticed grepdep
16:38:29  <Yorick> Yorick@YORICK-LAPTOP /home/ottdsrc/newnewpaxdest $ grep
16:38:31  <Yorick> Usage: C:\BuildOTTD\msys\bin\grep.exe [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]...
16:38:33  <Yorick> Try `C:\BuildOTTD\msys\bin\grep.exe --help' for more information
16:42:17  <Yorick> this one doesn't like being called from sh
16:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that output appears perfectly normal...
16:43:11  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14031 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13850): Determining the refit cargo did not work, when the old vehicle did not carry anything but the new one did.
16:43:24  <Yorick> Eddi: it's also there if I do grep --help
16:43:41  <frosch123> cool, cia works but dorpsgek doesn't :p
16:48:20  <Yorick> ehh, updating my msys.dll has worked
16:49:58  <Yorick> apparently, a new msys.dll just fixed all of the trouble
16:50:19  <Yorick> except for some boost warnings
16:50:39  <Yorick> multiple declarations and such
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16:53:23  <Yorick> so now boost multiple declaration warnings are spamming my console
17:00:52  <Yorick> also the game just crashed on autosave
17:02:54  *** Dr_Jekyll [] has joined #openttd
17:02:56  <Yorick> peter1138: your carg destinations av8 version is ancient
17:06:56  <Yorick> btw, it's crashing on fast-forwarded autosaves ;)
17:08:09  *** Reemo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08:17  <peter1138> Probably is...
17:19:37  *** CIA-5 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:24:34  <Yorick> flyspray is down
17:27:56  <Wolf01> not only that
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17:33:24  <Yorick> vcs too
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17:35:38  <xyz> hello
17:35:39  <xyz>,%201st%20Jan%202053.png
17:35:46  <xyz> look at the steel mill production
17:36:12  <Yorick> what version?
17:36:24  <xyz> the last NOAI one
17:36:31  <xyz> 4025
17:36:45  <Yorick> r4025?
17:37:07  <xyz> yes
17:37:10  <Zuu> r14025-noai I'd say?
17:37:13  <xyz> but the NOAI one
17:37:25  <Zuu> Or do you really mean 4025?
17:37:34  <Yorick> there wasn't a 4025-noai
17:37:55  <xyz> ok 14025
17:37:57  <xyz> :P
17:37:59  <xyz>
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17:56:52  <guru3> does anyone know/remember the guy that redid the ttd intro with guitars?
18:00:16  <Eddi|zuHause> does anyone know why i get segfaults when i pass a C++ object to python?
18:00:47  <glx> you don't use the right way?
18:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause> obviously, but i see no indication what would be wrong
18:01:42  <glx> what segfault, your c++ code or python?
18:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i can tell, the C++ code runs fine, and when i want to use the return value in python (like "print f()"), i get segfault
18:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and i do call Py_INCREF
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18:05:08  <Eddi|zuHause> code is like:
18:05:19  * peter1138 hmms at TortoiseSVN and ssh...
18:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause>   PyObject* o = new PyObject();
18:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause>   Py_INCREF(o);
18:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause>   return o;
18:06:03  *** Yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
18:06:45  <Eddi|zuHause> when i "printf("%d", (size_t)o)" it says 134579880
18:07:20  <Eddi|zuHause> when i "PyObject_Print(o, stdout, 0);" before the incref, it says <refcnt 0 at 0x80586a8>
18:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> where that is the same number as above
18:07:55  <Eddi|zuHause> when i do that print after the incref, i get segfault
18:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't understand it
18:11:28  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: bjarni * r14032 /trunk/src/ (blitter/factory.hpp video/cocoa/
18:11:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Fix (r13584): [OSX] changed the condition for selecting 8 or 32 bpp blitter by default
18:11:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD:  Now we will pick 32 bpp if no 8 bpp fullscreen resolutions are available on the main display (the one with the dock)
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18:20:24  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: Are you supposed to create PyObject() 's? In C I used them as a kind of base class.
18:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
18:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a prototype ;)
18:26:42  <Farden> hey, great gods of ottd
18:26:47  <Farden> i've got an idea for you
18:26:55  <Farden> it's about the multiplayer server selection screen
18:27:12  <Farden> what do you think about joining a server when you double click on its name on the list?
18:27:37  <Farden> instead of clicking on the server name then clickin on the join button
18:27:46  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: "new PyObject" sounds very, very wrong
18:27:53  <SpComb> assuming that you're using the base C API
18:28:08  <Eddi|zuHause> then explain it ;)
18:28:30  <SpComb> why would you create an instance of PyObject?
18:28:33  <SpComb> don't you have your own type?
18:28:37  <Bjarni> Farden: I think the risk of clicking the wrong one is too great for that
18:29:09  <SpComb> but e.g. for strs you'd use "PyObject* PyString_FromString(const char *v)"
18:29:10  <Bjarni> maybe not for you specifically but if it's like that for everybody... you get the idea
18:29:36  <SpComb> applying C++'s "new" operator to the Python C structs doesn't sound like a good idea at all to me
18:29:47  <SpComb> they don't have constructors or anything
18:29:49  <Zuu> Farden: Do you know you can create a shortcut that joins you at #openttdcoop directly at start?
18:30:03  <Zuu> (you have to type the password through)
18:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: well, my real problem is that i have an existing C library, that creates a lot of structs, and i want to export these structs somehow to python
18:30:27  <Farden> yeah, but I don't only play on the ps
18:30:34  <Farden> I now play in the prozone, too
18:30:45  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: SWIG is your friend then
18:30:49  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: so why are you mixing C++ into the issue?
18:30:56  <Zuu> Isn't prozone also one-company only?
18:30:59  <Farden> and, anyway, wouldn't it be interesting?
18:31:08  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: no particular reason...
18:31:26  <Farden> prozone depends of the game
18:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i had the hope that it would "just work" ;)
18:31:31  <SpComb> and indeed, there are tools out there that will generate the python-C bindings for you
18:31:34  <SpComb> good tools and bad tools
18:31:39  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: programming by trial-and-error? >_>
18:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat ;)
18:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> please elaborate
18:32:08  <SpComb> not going to get you far if you're trying to do things like "new PyObject"
18:32:16  <SpComb> well, have you read the python C api docs/tutorial?
18:32:37  <Zuu> I would then suggest making #<company number> optional for -n and if you ommit compnay number it presents you with the dialog shown after you have selected a server to join.
18:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i more or less skimmed it
18:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> constructing integers and strings works
18:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but that is not what i really need
18:34:11  *** Yorick [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:34:20  <SpComb> I suggest you ask your questions on freenode #python
18:34:54  <SpComb> <-- I don't know what tool that is, but it looks like a really good way to build python C bindings
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18:35:49  <SpComb> alternatively, read properly and throw away your C++ compiler
18:36:13  <SpComb> you'll need to create separate types to wrap your own structs, and then methods for those
18:36:38  <SpComb> bit hard to say withing knowing what your C code is, exactly
18:36:52  <SpComb> but bringing C++ into the mix won't make matters any easier
18:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not searching for a proper implementation... i'm looking for 10-minute tutorials that roughly show what i can do with it, to then decide a proper implementation
18:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the "primitive" tutorial for the python c api looked fine for simple functions that return strings or integers
18:38:27  *** fonso is now known as fonsinchen
18:38:49  * fonsinchen wonders silently if she can do anything to improve diagonal leveling ...
18:40:34  *** Wezz6400 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:41:58  <frosch123> <- if you report bugs afterwards you are allowed to play with autoreplace while I am having dinner
18:42:19  <fonsinchen> what does it do?
18:43:01  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14033 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix (r13938) [FS#2209]: Wrong offset in signal GUI. (Eddi)
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18:48:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14034 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp table/sprites.h): -Cleanup (r13938) [FS#2210]: Typo in YAPP constant. (Eddi)
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18:58:57  <Alberth> Any Fly-Spray guru here? My query just failed due to missing column
19:20:08  <Bjarni> missing column?
19:20:36  <Bjarni> could you explain a bit further?
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19:26:31  <Alberth> Query { ......... } Failed! (Unknown column 'c.comment_text' in 'where clause')
19:27:31  <Alberth> Bjarni: See FS#2213
19:38:50  <ln> i hope this is fake:
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19:53:28  <Bjarni> ln: wag the dog
19:53:44  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: syn
19:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
19:54:27  <Noldo> about realistic breaking you mentioned at the form...
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19:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i talk a lot of things when the day is long :p
19:55:07  <Noldo> :)
19:55:45  <Noldo> what if the breaking distance is longer than the distance from pre to main?
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19:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i said that... force the train to reserve more than 1 signal block
19:58:14  <Noldo> also it can be done without new signals
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19:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the presignal-reservation already works ;)
19:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> combo signals are a bit more headache
19:59:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and the slowing down is not implemented, maybe that can reuse the station one
20:00:31  <Bjarni> ln: did you understand my reply?
20:01:24  <ln> i wasn't able to fit it into this context.
20:01:58  <Bjarni>
20:02:33  <ln> ah, i didn't remember that presidential aspect of the plot.
20:04:15  *** welshdragon2 [] has joined #openttd
20:04:16  <Bjarni> I have that movie on a DVD
20:04:43  <Bjarni> haven't really watched it since it was on TV but I recorded it anyway
20:04:55  <Bjarni> but there is one thing I don't get
20:05:07  <Bjarni> according to the media they are shooting and bombing... but why?
20:05:08  *** [alt]buster [] has joined #openttd
20:08:28  <ln> it's a war, shooting and bombing is part of it.
20:08:32  <ln> essential part.
20:08:47  <Bjarni> that's not what I meant
20:08:56  *** [com]buster [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09:06  <Bjarni> I mean why is there a war?
20:09:34  <ln> russia wants to protect russian rebels in georgia.
20:15:49  *** LA [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:20:55  <ln> does denmark still have an army?
20:23:18  <Bjarni> now what kind of question is that?
20:23:45  <Zuu> ln: do you plan to invide denmark or what? ;)
20:24:24  <ln> Zuu: no one even tried to stop me at their border.
20:24:46  <ln> Bjarni: a valid kind of.
20:25:44  <Bjarni> EU told us not to stop people at the border
20:25:48  <Zuu> But within EU isn't it normal that no one stops you? It's not like going into the satets.
20:26:09  <Zuu> Schengen it's called, isn't it?
20:26:22  <Bjarni> a majority of politicians accepted that because EU told us to do so but it's a hot political issue
20:26:25  <Zuu> Or was Schengen just the nordic stuff?
20:26:43  <Bjarni> Schengen is all of EU
20:27:09  <Zuu> Yea, but there was a nordic convention befeore, wasn't it?
20:27:10  <Bjarni> or supposed to be
20:27:25  <ln> Zuu: Nordic stuff is a lot older than Schengen.
20:27:34  <Bjarni> the Nordic convention is something else and it's much older
20:27:45  <Bjarni> however it would appear that EU nullified that
20:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> not all EU members are also Schengen participants
20:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> most notably great britain is excluded
20:28:44  <Eddi|zuHause> also the new countries are not in yet, they have to fulfil some security requirements on their exterior borders first
20:29:38  <Bjarni> here is the good part. You don't have to bring your passport when you cross borders. However you need EU approved identification and the only thing they could agree on was.... a passport
20:29:55  <ln> not true
20:30:01  <Bjarni> so you should bring your passport so you can prove that you don't have to show your passport
20:30:58  <Bjarni> <ln> not true <-- explain
20:32:25  <ln> Bjarni:
20:34:18  <Bjarni> those ID cards were rejected by Denmark so we can't get those
20:35:45  <ln> but you you probably accept those if others have such.
20:36:08  <Bjarni> it wouldn't surprise me
20:36:36  <Bjarni> we have an EU loving government and media
20:37:02  <Bjarni> meaning they can say some stuff to the public and do something else and we will never know
20:39:17  <Bjarni> there is a fair chance that we will get an election next year
20:39:56  <Bjarni> because the 3 parties who have the majority are fighting because of EU
20:41:23  <Bjarni> basically the EU court stated that a citizen of EU can work for a few weeks in another EU country and then return and bring his/her wife/husband even if that partner can't get legal entry to EU
20:42:08  <Bjarni> one party totally rejects this ruling and unless the government can nullified it they will force us to get an election next spring
20:42:34  *** [alt]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:42:35  <Bjarni> but... isn't it kind of a strange result of the court?
20:44:54  <Zuu> Ah, that stuff, was something about that danish people didn't knew they could go to sweden and work 3 weaks and then get back and live with their wife/husband instead of moving to south sweden and work in denmark.
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20:45:40  <Zuu> Some people they interviewed was quite angry I remember.
20:45:41  <Bjarni> Zuu: this is supposed to affect all EU countries
20:46:26  <Zuu> Bjarni: Okay. But mostly neccessary in denmark as denmarks rules for wife/husbands from outside of EU are qutie strict I guess?
20:46:39  <Zuu> At least from what I've heard.
20:47:33  <Zuu> But to be honest I don't know what our law says about it.
20:48:06  <Zuu> (about swedes bringing wife/husband to sweden)
20:48:51  <Bjarni> it's actually not that strict
20:49:34  <Bjarni> all you have to do is to have a place to live (your own or rented for at least 3 years), an income and you have to be at least 24 years
20:49:37  <Bjarni> something like that
20:49:56  <Bjarni> oh and you aren't allowed to be on social welfare
20:50:07  <Bjarni> for more than 6 months during the last year
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21:15:04  * Eddi|zuHause hides
21:15:09  <Rubidium> playing with a segway?
21:15:13  <ln> omg, it's the joker!
21:15:24  <peter1138>
21:16:02  <Eddi|zuHause> indeed ;)
21:16:20  <Rubidium> :O peter made a station newgrf ;)
21:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> question that i always wanted to ask: why is the last pylon of a line on the wrong side?
21:17:51  <peter1138> Nice, the tunnels work too :D
21:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause> how is the 3rd rail drawn on switches?
21:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> normally there would be one on either side
21:18:59  <Rubidium> no more X junctions!
21:18:59  <peter1138> No idea, I just borrowed the Metro tracks from
21:19:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i assumed that ;)
21:20:09  <peter1138> Hmm, did you know that if a rail type is not compatible with itself, you can't build it on a clear dirty tile?
21:20:18  <peter1138> You can on grass...
21:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
21:20:32  <peter1138> Not hugely important, but might be an incorrect lookup somewhere...
21:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't say that i did ;)
21:21:01  <peter1138> Hmm, what do stations make of it...
21:22:26  <peter1138> Hmm, uses normal rail :o
21:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> blasphemy!
21:23:03  <Rubidium> peter1138: in the screenshots on that website it's the same
21:23:18  <Rubidium> <- that one
21:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> go finish NewCargodest! don't start NewRailtypes! before :p
21:25:11  *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
21:27:12  * peter1138 wonders how fast it would be to resolve the sprite for each tile...
21:28:39  <peter1138> I've done it as an Action321 system, but it looks up the result after loading the GRFs.
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21:36:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Varaction2! ;)
21:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but when there is a 3rd rail track, there must also be a combined 3rd rail/catenary track
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21:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and until "newroutes" [which i assume is either vaporware or doesn't even solve half the problems it is hyped to solve] this will be kind of a drawing nightmare for newstation authors, because they need to support every railtype out there
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21:43:13  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause: no they don't
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21:45:35  <ln> so the meeting is over?
21:46:56  <Prof_Frink> Meet is met.
21:49:45  <ln> was anyone sent to Guantánamo?
21:50:09  <Prof_Frink> Axamentia was nearly shot for being a terr'ist
21:50:39  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, like so ?
21:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, except the catenary is practically invisible ;)
21:51:25  <DJNekkid> peter1138: wow!
21:51:31  <peter1138> That's hardly my fault :p
21:51:45  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you _could_ use the dutch catenary ;)
21:51:45  <Bjarni> but it's still broken :P
21:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> needs different tracktype for each trackbit :p
21:52:50  <ln> Bjarni: did you like V for Vendetta or The Dark Knight more?
21:52:59  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with the fence on the slope?
21:53:24  <peter1138> The top one?
21:53:32  <peter1138> It hasn't finished building it yet...
21:53:43  <Bjarni> ln: what are you talking about?
21:54:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the built one, directly on the slope... it looks like half of it is beneath some other sprite
21:54:30  <ln> Bjarni: motion pictures.
21:54:41  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: usual sprite sorting issue
21:54:59  <frosch123> well known, except for its cause
21:55:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have not used fences for ages ;)
21:55:28  <peter1138> Well the cause is it's not sorting in the order we want it to.
21:55:33  <peter1138> The solution to that, however...
21:55:54  <Bjarni> ln: not only is it a completely random question.... you are also asking about two movies I have never even heard of
21:56:07  <frosch123> well, but usally the is a reason why sorting fails. In this case I never understood it
21:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> has the "vehicles disappear behind slopes/foundations" drawing issue ever been fixed?
21:57:30  <frosch123> no
21:57:46  <peter1138> Same problem.
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22:01:20  <doc|home> hello, anyone got some weird issue where goods trucks end up losing large quantities of money delivering goods which came off a train?
22:07:08  <DJNekkid> btw guys, may i suggest a shortcut? when one are in the world generation window, enter/return should generate it :)
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22:08:53  <Alberth> doc|home: this may be of help:
22:11:46  <Alberth> Actually, it is a pseudo-random link, it seems to come up something like 3 times a month
22:12:33  <doc|home> I'm not seeing any yellow number
22:12:43  <doc|home> just a green one
22:12:58  <frosch123> the train has the yellow income
22:13:40  * doc|home watches
22:15:26  <doc|home> ok, I just had a goods train arrive, drop its goods, and leave, no profit showed and the train is running at a deficit
22:16:31  <doc|home> also, when the truck does a delivery it makes ?472 and loses me >1 million a year
22:16:39  <doc|home> over a town distance
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22:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> transfer income gets distributed unevenly across the different steps
22:18:27  <nicfer> I got yet another idea: in my city there are streets where heavy trucks aren't allowed to travel
22:18:28  <doc|home> ok, but it's not showing anywhere :)
22:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause> mostly the first vehicle in the chain gets the most money, and the last vehicle gets the least money
22:18:50  <nicfer> what about implementing something similar in ottd?
22:18:52  <doc|home> nicfer: I'd like to see articulated trucks :)
22:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> doc|home: a screenshot showing unloading vehicles and their order list might be useful
22:19:11  <doc|home> Eddi|zuHause: ok
22:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: well. the different-road-types idea has been discussed multiple times... come up with a plan and implement it ;)
22:20:47  * peter1138 ponders sleep
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22:23:52  <nicfer> this is more about restrictions for trucks rather than different road typees
22:23:55  <nicfer> types*
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22:29:00  <doc|home> Eddi|zuHause:
22:29:34  <Fennec> doc|home: Idunno, you may actually be losing money by delivering the goods slooowly via truck for the last mile - compared to what you'd get if the train delivery was the final destination, anyway
22:29:46  <doc|home> Fennec: that's a bug
22:30:13  <doc|home> I mean, 1.7 million per year per truck?
22:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.5.2 is very old version
22:30:26  <doc|home> that's true
22:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause> should update to 0.6.2
22:30:34  <doc|home> but gentoo has hard masked it, must look for an update
22:30:37  * Fennec hmms. That /is/ a little much, yeah.
22:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> transfers got some major fixes since 0.5
22:31:02  <doc|home> ah, ok
22:31:07  <doc|home> any idea why it might be hardmasked?
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22:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i never used gentoo
22:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, get the tarball from sourceforge ;)
22:32:05  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:32:25  <doc|home> Eddi|zuHause: hehe
22:33:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, the "best" way would be to get the development version from the svn ;)
22:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> many huge new features since 0.6 even there
22:33:38  <doc|home> provided I didn't mind the odd borkage :)
22:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> trunk is very stable
22:34:25  <doc|home> hmmm, ok
22:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> this is under the assumption that you know how to compile ;)
22:38:06  <doc|home> but of course :)
22:38:23  <peter1138> Hmm
22:38:31  <peter1138> So...
22:38:44  <peter1138> Just stations, bridges and level-crossings to sort out :o
22:39:56  <peter1138> Hmm, and depots.
22:40:44  <Rubidium> doc|home: it's hardmasked because nobody bothers to update it (or so it looks when looking at the bug reports at gentoo about it being such an old version)
22:43:56  <doc|home> yeah, so I see
22:43:58  <doc|home> thanks
22:44:16  <Rubidium> <- that one's about getting it updated
22:45:15  <doc|home> are games I'm playing forward compatible?
22:45:42  <Rubidium> you can open them in 0.6.2, though you can't open 0.6.2 savegames in 0.5.2
22:45:49  <doc|home> that's cool
22:46:26  <nicfer> what about my idea, restrictions on roads
22:46:39  <glx> [00:07:14] <DJNekkid> btw guys, may i suggest a shortcut? when one are in the world generation window, enter/return should generate it :) <-- there's a text box in this window and text boxes catch all keypress
22:47:27  <DJNekkid> oh ...
22:47:30  <DJNekkid> good point :)
22:48:25  <rortom> hi all
22:48:39  <rortom> what about loading status indicators in transparent mode?
22:49:28  <peter1138> Press Ctrl-X and lock them on.
22:52:52  <rortom> ah, thanks :)
22:53:47  * rortom is blind :)
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22:59:44  <glx> lol @ latest messages in "how to apply a patch" thread
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23:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> "am i getting this right or is it totally wrong" <- yes. :p
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23:07:16  <doc|home> Eddi|zuHause: ok, using new version and still not showing
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23:08:02  <Eddi|zuHause> doc|home: are you using "transfer" orders?
23:08:23  <doc|home> er, dunno :)
23:08:24  <doc|home> one sec
23:08:46  <doc|home> ah, ok, now I am :)
23:09:04  <doc|home> I always wondered what that was for, never seemed to make a difference before
23:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> transfers were very flawed in 0.5
23:09:48  <doc|home> do I have to do that for every train that does a transfer? o.O
23:10:04  <doc|home> for me on this map, that is a *fuck* load of transfers
23:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> next step to not losing as much money: do not let cargo pile up at the transfer station
23:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> always carry more cargo away than you bring
23:10:39  <doc|home> yeah, working on that
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23:10:53  <doc|home> that made a big difference, thanks
23:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> don't use transfer on the final step ;)
23:11:19  <doc|home> my trucks are still losing lots of money
23:11:24  <doc|home> one is -7mil
23:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to let it run for a while, until the old cargo from the old version is out of your system
23:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and the last step is almost certainly going to lose money
23:12:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the trucks are much slower than the trains
23:12:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and the cargo will be waiting at the station for a while
23:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so the trains overestimate the final income
23:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the trucks have to balance that out
23:14:40  <doc|home> ok
23:14:57  <doc|home> that still seems a bit odd
23:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the system is not perfect yet ;)
23:15:12  <doc|home> even if I understand why from a programme point of view
23:15:17  * doc|home nods
23:17:05  <Fennec> from what I've seen transfers seem to work best like.... lotsa buses and mail trucks and such => HIGH SPEED TRAIN!!!!! wheee!!!!! => deliver immediately upon arriving halfway across the map
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23:17:42  <doc|home> Eddi|zuHause: do I also need to change from load to transfer and take cargo?
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23:28:57  <Eddi|zuHause> doc|home: no, load is fine
23:29:43  * doc|home needs to read up on the different transfer types
23:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> transfer is only interesting for unloading
23:29:49  <doc|home> ok, thanks
23:29:59  <doc|home> so why transfer and wait for full load and transfer and take cargo?
23:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "transfer and take cargo" does not make a lot of sense, because vehicles tend to load the same cargo they just unloaded
23:30:33  <doc|home> yeah, seemed a bit odd :)
23:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> only ever use "transfer and leave empty"
23:33:03  <doc|home> ok, cool
23:33:05  <doc|home> thanks
23:38:39  <rortom> mh
23:38:48  <rortom> any idea of how to make the game more complicated
23:38:59  <rortom> beyond the maximum difficulty?
23:39:10  <rortom> i mean at some point you get lots of money
23:39:16  <ArmEagle> go multiplayer :)
23:39:18  <rortom> and then your done with the game
23:39:21  <rortom> i am
23:39:26  <ArmEagle> oh.
23:39:40  <ArmEagle> yeah money is gained a bit too easily
23:40:17  <rortom> i have like 1,500,000,000 euros ...
23:40:20  <rortom> :/
23:41:17  <doc|home> I want more tech :/
23:41:23  <doc|home> oh, and why can't I build trams?
23:49:37  <nicfer> what about my idea, restrictions on roads
23:49:58  <glx> doc|home: load a tram grf
23:50:09  <nicfer> for example, towns deciding what roads are transitable by what trucks
23:52:14  <doc|home> glx: ah, ok, thanks

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