Log for #openttd on 26th August 2008:
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00:00:11  <Celestar> I remember just rewriting it (=
00:01:28  <Celestar> and it's in alpha state (=
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00:08:03  <Zuu> Good night everybody!
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00:26:41  <Celestar> this->InitilalizeSleepSequence();
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00:38:44  <Yeggstry> can someone explain the transfer money to me? I mean, the vehicle gets a "transfer" credit, but does that money become part of the rest of the journey? So you get the transfer + rest of journey money at the end?
00:41:44  <Belugas> only when the journey ends with an order that is not a transfer
00:41:55  <Belugas> there's a wiki page on this :)
00:42:49  <Yeggstry> I did see :P I just didn't see a lot of the money
00:43:12  <Yeggstry> for instance, I had an oil tanker setup that dropped oil at docks 11k worth in transfer
00:43:25  <Yeggstry> then had trucks transferring to a nearby oil refinery
00:43:46  <Yeggstry> but the amount was no where near 11k when the trucks finished transferring
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00:54:09  * TrueBrain hugs Belugas
00:55:34  <Belugas> :)
00:55:48  <Belugas> kiss kiss kiss!
00:55:58  <TrueBrain> ieuw :p
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06:00:36  <Smoky555> hi all
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06:01:32  <Smoky555> whho can tell me,. does SVN mailing list is available now or not?
06:32:41  <Forked> urgh.. tramstation in the middle of town with 800+ passengers.. the city has 2666 people
06:33:05  <Forked> and 560 people heading towards it from the big trains tation
06:33:18  <Forked> and I was really suppose to be at work 30 minutes ago :)
06:33:23  <hylje> well of course people want to get to the centrum
06:33:59  <Forked> sorta sucks without remote connect station :)
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06:40:56  <planetmaker> g'morning
06:41:56  <Forked> and I have got to run, afk
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07:31:21  * Celestar scratches his head
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07:42:18  <Celestar> why is valgrind that damn slow :P
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08:03:35  <TinoDidriksen> Because Valgrind is just that thorough.
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08:05:51  <Celestar> it's awesome 8)
08:06:02  <rortom> morning
08:06:08  <rortom> valgrind is awesome
08:06:26  <rortom> the only tool under windows that is nearly equally is very expensive ..
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08:09:04  <extspotter> hi
08:09:17  <extspotter> can anyone help me with grfcodec
08:10:06  <peter1138> grfcodec -d -p2 file.grf
08:10:32  <extspotter> ?
08:10:48  <extspotter> is that the grf I need
08:10:55  <extspotter> to decode it
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08:11:11  <Celestar> peter1138: I have started to rewrite the cargo_list cache for LoadUnloadStation
08:11:33  <Forked> Is there a.. actually I'll check the wiki first
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08:12:23  <Celestar> and I still don't understand CargoList::Truncate
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08:12:51  <Forked> there a way to increase the penalty to tram/bus stations when it comes to generating passengers? Or can I set a "This station can only hold X passenger" .. Feels a bit silly with 900 people on one busstop/tile :)
08:13:51  <Celestar> Forked: nope. This would mean mangling the passenger generation code.
08:14:10  <Celestar> Forked: it will be done, but only if the first incarnation of cargodest is finished, because it has nothing to do with cargodest.
08:14:45  <Forked> You spoke of some penalty yesterday, I thought at the moment it was something you put in with cargodest :)
08:19:02  <Celestar> yes
08:19:14  <Celestar> there is a penality for the number of passengers GOING TO a bus/tram stop
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08:26:33  <Forked> aha
08:26:35  <Forked> :)
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08:44:47  <Celestar> meh
08:46:30  <Noldo> how trunkable is it?
08:47:20  * peter1138 ponders the feasibility of saving all cached vehicle information instead of recalculating it.
08:47:31  <peter1138> Well, it's feasible, but is it the only way...
08:48:20  <Celestar> Noldo: how trunkable is what?
08:48:34  <Celestar> peter1138: what do we gain?
08:48:46  <peter1138> It's laughably easy to create a NewGRF that will cause desyncs.
08:48:54  <Noldo> dests ofcource
08:49:20  <peter1138> Celestar, less desyncs.
08:49:43  <Celestar> Noldo: pretty .. but there are things missing apart from a thorough code review. it's all listed on the wiki
08:49:48  <Celestar> peter1138: because of newgrfs?
08:50:11  <peter1138> Yes.
08:50:37  <Celestar> what data would that be?
08:50:55  <peter1138> There's loads of it. Vehicle speed, power, weight, etc...
08:51:15  <peter1138> Cargo capacity...
08:51:17  <DaleStan> Hm... Yes, it is. For CBs that are called "on game load or when vehicle enters/leaves a depot", return different values depending on whether the vehicle is in a depot or not
08:52:14  <peter1138> Yup.
08:52:22  <peter1138> Or lots of other vehicle variables.
08:52:26  <peter1138> Or date...
08:53:00  <Celestar> are we not opening a pandora's box there?
08:53:11  <peter1138> Celestar, no, it's already open, and has been a long time.
08:53:33  <peter1138> We've solved a lot of the problems, but basically we relying on the GRF to not do anything like that.
08:54:41  <peter1138> *we're
08:55:07  <Celestar> then we ought to close it (=
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08:56:29  <peter1138> It needs quite some changes, I think. Especially... road vehicles.
08:57:08  <Celestar> what about completing cargodest first :P
08:57:11  <DaleStan> The grf shouldn't, and it might well be a useful (to GRF authors) feature to save cached values and then call the CBs on game load anyway. Then ignore the result, except to issue a debug message if the game-load result doesn't match the cached value.
08:58:11  <Celestar> hmpf
08:58:26  <Celestar> <= something is still wrong (=
08:59:02  <peter1138> -4 ?
08:59:08  <Celestar> exactly (=
08:59:23  <Celestar> I'm kind of wondering that too
09:00:15  <Celestar> especially since I'm asserting everywhere that this doesn't happen :P
09:00:54  <peter1138> DaleStan, quite hard to ignore the result, especially for trains where earlier decisions affect later ones...
09:01:45  <planetmaker> peter1138: just wondering: how much increased traffic would this communication of the grf calculations cause?
09:01:56  <planetmaker> Or you plan to just communication once upon loading of a map?
09:01:59  <peter1138> ...
09:02:15  <DaleStan> "Ignore" as in "use the cached value from the savegame". This does require that you do the saving of cached data you were discussing, though.
09:02:52  <peter1138> planetmaker... savegame changes.
09:04:14  <planetmaker> :) I wonder though... we had desyncs which can be resolved by re-loading the server...
09:04:23  <peter1138> Exactly.
09:04:42  <planetmaker> ignoring this communication then won't solve a thing.
09:04:45  <planetmaker> ah :)
09:13:24  <peter1138> Reloading the server causes it to recalculate all the cached values. Sometimes that'll fix things for a while, other times it'll be okay for a couple of players but no good for the rest.
09:15:16  <Celestar> peter1138:
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09:18:08  <Celestar> RFC
09:18:12  <peter1138> Why do you need that inheritance?
09:18:25  <peter1138> Hmm
09:19:02  <Celestar> you mean CargoListType?
09:19:07  <peter1138> I think I see.
09:19:13  <Celestar> cuz I have it in two classes
09:19:49  <Celestar> and I think this is the clean solution
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09:20:39  <Celestar> hm I still got a negative number again
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09:22:19  <peter1138> :o
09:22:24  <Celestar> assault of the underscores!
09:22:49  <Celestar> peter1138: I actually wanted to make DestinationList a sub-class of CargoList ...
09:22:53  <Celestar> nested class I mean
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09:23:51  <Celestar> but I thought better of it
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09:26:33  <Celestar> why is this crap negative :SS
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09:31:06  <Celestar> oh I know why
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09:32:53  <Celestar> wee I have it
09:36:47  <Forked> that New Oil system thread feels quite hostile
09:36:55  <Celestar> Forked: hm?
09:37:08  <Celestar> a hostlie thread? on the forum? NEVER!
09:37:19  <Forked> ;D
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09:38:49  <Celestar> what's it about anyway?
09:38:51  <Celestar> I don't get it
09:40:51  <Forked> makes oil refineries produce fuel that you can transport to power plants..
09:41:14  <Celestar> yeah.
09:41:18  <Celestar> don't we have newgrfs that do that?
09:41:28  <peter1138> So it's what NewGRF can do?
09:41:31  <Forked> (I thought they mostly ran on coal / nuclear / water /etc.. ) .. Are there actually large scale power plants that use fuel?
09:41:56  <peter1138> ...
09:42:09  <Forked> ok I guess I just made an idiot out of myself? =p
09:42:18  <peter1138> Your definition of fuel is wrong.
09:42:22  <Forked> ah.
09:42:23  <DaleStan> Nuclear fuel?
09:42:30  <peter1138> Coal is fuel...
09:42:36  <Forked> Well Oilbased fuel then
09:42:40  <Celestar> Forked: there are some
09:42:51  <DaleStan> They are in fact called "fuel rods".
09:42:53  <Celestar> in germany, it's about 2% of the installed peak power
09:43:04  <peter1138> Things don't 'run on' nuclear.
09:43:17  <Noldo> there is a little one that burns oil like 300 meters from where I'm now
09:43:33  <Noldo> though I think it's mostly for reserve power
09:43:35  <Forked> considering the oil prices today :)
09:44:38  <Noldo> I wonder what is the definition of fuel anyway
09:44:47  <peter1138> Coal and oil fired power plants are the bane of electric car supporters...
09:45:23  *** blathijs_ is now known as blathijs
09:45:37  <Celestar> peter1138: er not really. A coal power plant still has a significantly higher efficiency than an microscopic ICE in a normal vehicle
09:46:33  <blathijs> ICE? Internal Combustion Engine or something?
09:46:48  <Forked> The ISP I work at is owned by one of the large regional power companies, that create all their electricity from water :) wee Norway
09:47:15  <peter1138> Celestar, yes, but they like to think of el-cars as totally clean.
09:47:49  <peter1138> Forked, using tidal flow or dams?
09:47:53  <Forked> dams
09:48:06  <Forked> Started building in the 1920s
09:48:25  <Celestar> blathijs: yes
09:48:32  <Celestar> peter1138: they aren't
09:48:35  <peter1138> So not entirely without environmental cost, although that's a one-off...
09:48:57  <Celestar> peter1138: but cleaner than ICE cars with normal power mix; much cleaner with a low-fossil-fuel power mix
09:49:06  <Forked> Well no, but still better than many other options.
09:49:18  <Forked> I'd like to see more windpower in this country, place them out at sea
09:49:38  <Celestar> wind power sucks unfortunately
09:49:55  <peter1138> Or blows? :o
09:50:01  <peter1138> God that was poor humour.
09:50:02  <Forked> hrhr
09:50:13  <Celestar> peter1138: <= cargodest with cl5.diff (=
09:50:26  <peter1138> That looks better :D
09:50:45  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah
09:50:58  <Celestar> peter1138: I don't like TileLoopClearHelper but that's no cargodest problem(=
09:51:13  <Noldo> why Md5::Procrss is that high on the list=
09:51:31  <peter1138> Noldo, because it's quite expensive.
09:52:24  <Celestar> Noldo: and I have bazillions of newgrfs in my data dir
09:52:42  <Celestar> peter1138: that still doesn't explain why it is called 2 million times (=
09:53:45  <peter1138> Celestar, because it's done in chunks of 1024 bytes.
09:53:54  <Celestar> peter1138: that does indeed explain it (=
09:54:07  <peter1138> Maybe increasing that buffer size would speed it up.
09:54:25  <Celestar> it's not run in-game, is it?
09:55:06  <peter1138> No, only on start up.
09:55:20  <peter1138> Not hugely important, but if it can be sped up simply, then why not?
09:55:41  <Celestar> 0.52 seconds
09:55:47  <Celestar> that's how long it takes
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09:56:01  <peter1138> Not in debug mode ;)
09:56:15  <peter1138> s/debug mode/a debug compile/
09:56:42  <Celestar> peter1138: gotta disappoint you
09:56:47  <Celestar> it's in 64-byte chunks (=
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09:57:24  <peter1138> Ah...
09:57:40  <peter1138> Then Md5::Append() is called in 1024 byte chunks.
09:57:51  <Celestar> if it's 1k then 2million calls still sounds like 2GB worth of newgrfs :P
09:58:15  <peter1138> Hehe
09:58:46  <Celestar> lol@profile
09:58:55  <peter1138> So no point in changing that buffer size.
09:58:57  <Celestar> breadth_first_visit in fine
09:59:16  <Celestar> breadth_first_visit in file
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10:29:32  <Celestar> heh
10:29:34  <Celestar> DAMN :P
10:30:38  <Celestar> my destination cache fails gloriously when Routing is disabled
10:31:17  <peter1138> :o
10:32:54  <Celestar> well, asserts
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10:35:52  <Brianetta> Fred
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10:37:04  <Celestar> George
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10:37:25  <Noldo> anything but Sue
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10:39:47  <Celestar> heh
10:39:53  <Celestar> done
10:43:56  <Celestar> planetmaker: we need another networktest, I've done a large modification of the code
10:44:21  <planetmaker> :)
10:44:34  <Celestar> but it greatly speeds things up
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10:45:11  <planetmaker> that's nice. Well, same procedure as last time, I guess.
10:46:21  <Celestar> yeah
10:46:39  <Celestar> but maybe we could test with a network and not only a star or something (=
10:46:41  <Celestar> @openttd bugs
10:46:42  <DorpsGek> Celestar: Temporary Offline
10:47:04  <planetmaker> Celestar: sure. Let's make a point-to-point PAX game then.
10:47:24  <planetmaker> Like a number of cities connected via ICE and internal city-wide networks
10:48:04  <planetmaker> if you tell me the hg could giving it a try to update the dev server right now :)
10:48:13  <planetmaker> <--- mercurial noob :)
10:48:41  <Celestar> <= hr hr
10:48:50  <Celestar> planetmaker: can't do it today
10:49:15  <Celestar> planetmaker: hg pull; hg update should be enough for updating the stuff.
10:49:20  <planetmaker> meh :(
10:49:45  <Celestar> lunch time
10:49:59  <planetmaker> enjoy your meal :)
10:50:02  <Celestar> thanks
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11:16:59  <Celestar> planetmaker: did we use any newgrfs last time?
11:17:12  <planetmaker> IIRC no
11:17:42  <Celestar> maybe we could use one proper network-save trainset (=
11:17:45  <Celestar> safe*
11:18:19  <planetmaker> :). Celestar: if you have something in mind in particular... feel free to supply a save with those grf which you like :D
11:18:38  <planetmaker> or we could just take... NARS maybe as it also has nice towns.
11:18:45  <planetmaker> (the NA city set)
11:18:56  * Celestar shrugs
11:19:03  <Celestar> I usually only play the DBSet
11:20:53  <planetmaker> If you prefer :)
11:21:25  <peter1138> DBSet should be desync safe ;)
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11:21:39  <peter1138> It predates lots of stuff...
11:23:24  <planetmaker> k, we can use that then. Nice ICEs :)
11:24:29  <Celestar> yeah
11:24:32  <Celestar> if we play that long :P
11:24:38  <Celestar> but we can start in 1930 or summin
11:25:19  <planetmaker> is there already something worthwhile in DBSet by that time?
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11:27:05  <peter1138> ... worthwhile ...
11:27:15  <planetmaker> well. Probably wrong word :P
11:27:21  <Forked> usable
11:27:25  <peter1138> They're all usable.
11:27:43  <peter1138> It's a perfect finely tuned set ;)
11:27:46  <planetmaker> I usually start 1950 - that's why I'm asking :)
11:27:52  <peter1138> Ouch...
11:27:57  <peter1138> Starting in 1950 misses loads of good stuff.
11:28:21  <Forked> I'll try again. In what year does the first engine appear in that trainset? =p
11:28:27  <peter1138> 1920
11:28:32  <Forked> ah.
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11:36:59  <planetmaker> how do I get the current version from hg?
11:38:49  <planetmaker> hg st? hg info? I'm not sure what then the actual revision of the code is from what I get...
11:39:07  <Progman> I used hg head
11:39:40  <planetmaker> aye. Thx
11:39:49  *** Jupix2 is now known as Jupix
11:42:10  <peter1138> TrueBrain, how does developers/ work on ?
11:43:53  <TrueBrain> peter1138: well, after you added it (what you did I see)
11:43:58  <TrueBrain> we either need to wait for hg to reload ..
11:44:21  <TrueBrain> or you look now ;)
11:44:35  <TrueBrain> don't forget to set things in your hgrc ;)
11:44:52  <TrueBrain> as in:
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> cat truebrain/noai.hg/.hg/hgrc
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> [web]
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> description = NoAI patches
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> contact = TrueBrain
11:46:07  <peter1138> Hmm, didn't know they existed.
11:46:23  <TrueBrain> only if you have webhg over a repos :)
11:48:20  <peter1138> :)
11:48:46  <peter1138> Okay, changing hgrc worked... but reloading the hg server is needed for it to appear?
11:48:56  <TrueBrain> nope, already there
11:49:05  <peter1138> No, I mean the repo :)
11:49:22  <peter1138> Say if I wanted to add another repo.
11:49:36  <peter1138> What's the deal? Just poke you? ;)
11:49:41  <TrueBrain> hg doesn't scan the directory every page reload (would be rather inefficient), so it only does it once a .. day maybe
11:49:45  <TrueBrain> so if you want it to appear, poke me :p
11:50:00  <peter1138> It doesn't do it once a day as it's been there a while ;)
11:50:14  <TrueBrain> then it never rescans :p
11:50:15  <peter1138> Maybe a daily reload would be adequate?
11:50:16  <Brianetta> New look:
11:50:30  <TrueBrain> peter1138: reloading 'hg' is very troublesome .. but I will think about it :)
11:50:33  <peter1138> Or give me privs to do it, hehe
11:50:47  <TrueBrain> peter1138: like you add that many new hgs over a short period of time ;)
11:50:55  <TrueBrain> and I am almost always around, so .. ;) :p
11:51:20  <Noldo> Brianetta: I like the bit about toyland
11:51:26  <Brianetta> (:
11:51:44  <peter1138> Who does have admin rights on the server?
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11:52:10  <Brianetta> The hg server?
11:52:14  <Brianetta> Hello davis
11:52:16  <Brianetta> New game
11:52:16  <davis-> hey there
11:52:19  <peter1138> The new dedicated server.
11:52:20  <Brianetta> This time, with a newgrf
11:52:21  <TrueBrain> peter1138: Rubidium and I do
11:52:30  <davis-> whad newgrf's you enabled?
11:52:35  <Brianetta> UKRS base
11:52:39  <davis-> ah sweet
11:52:43  <Brianetta> One single solitary newgrf
11:52:48  <davis-> anyway , last game was without any desyncs
11:52:56  <Brianetta> If that causes no desyncs, I'll throw in some stations
11:52:58  <davis-> at least from what i seen
11:52:59  <peter1138> Did you change the start date back? :)
11:53:00  <Brianetta> yes
11:53:04  <Brianetta> peter1138: 1920
11:53:24  <Brianetta> In both places, since I can't remember which of start_year and start_date is the one the game uses now.
11:53:34  <davis-> added modified building costs?
11:53:35  <peter1138> Hehe
11:53:39  <Brianetta> davis: No.
11:53:40  <davis-> since it was slightly way to easy last game
11:53:42  <davis-> ah ok
11:53:47  <Brianetta> One grf at a time
11:53:53  <davis-> mhm
11:53:58  <Brianetta> until we discover which one is causing problems
11:54:05  <davis-> sounds like a plan
11:54:11  <Brianetta> Once we find which, we play with just that one
11:54:21  <Brianetta> to rule out the possibility that it's a problem with a combination
11:54:56  <Brianetta> If we have one newgrf which we know causes desyncs, the devs can perhaps look at it.
11:55:09  <Brianetta> Or, they can say "it will take too much time"
11:55:09  <davis-> yeah .. best way to do it
11:55:36  <Brianetta> Clearly, the negrf cache needs overhauling
11:55:51  <Brianetta> Everybody suspects it, including the devs
11:56:01  <Brianetta> I think it's time to savei t
11:56:10  <davis-> all we can do is try ..
11:56:29  <Brianetta> or, shock horror, have a secondary data set (an additional save file) which is only transferred at network connect
11:56:39  <Brianetta> contaiing all the volatile stuff
11:56:46  <davis-> hm
11:57:03  <davis-> iam neither good at programming , neither i ever took a look at the ottd source
11:57:07  <davis-> so ive no idea at all
11:57:14  <Brianetta> If the caches aren't flushed and stored inthe save, tey're not given to clients.
11:57:25  <davis-> ah
11:57:28  <Brianetta> So either the caches need flushing, or they need sending along.
11:57:41  <hylje> propagating bad state ahoy
11:57:56  <Brianetta> hylje: Good or bad we don't care; it just needs tobe the same
12:00:23  <davis-> it will workout
12:00:25  <davis-> somehow
12:00:45  <Celestar> back
12:01:07  <Celestar> is the server running?
12:01:40  <davis-> which?
12:01:44  <Celestar> cargodest
12:01:49  <davis-> shrugs
12:04:29  <planetmaker> Celestar: not quite. But in short time, I think :P
12:04:42  * planetmaker is slow trying to figure out things not having done before :)
12:04:48  <Celestar> heh ok
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12:07:41  <peter1138> Anyway, my code is on :D
12:08:35  <Celestar> looking
12:09:52  <davis-> :o
12:10:31  <peter1138> Lots of merges, unfortunately, but never mind :)
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12:15:32  <Celestar> peter1138: how do I obtain a diff between cargodest and trunk?
12:16:36  <peter1138> hg diff -r <revision of last svn change>
12:17:12  <peter1138> Which is fca6f9cf02ac, based on your repo on the server.
12:17:28  <Celestar> heh
12:17:29  <davis-> wow i feel so un-nerdy here
12:17:39  <Celestar> peter1138: that means I need an hg checkout, righT? (=
12:17:42  <Celestar> of trunk I mean
12:17:50  <peter1138> No.
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12:18:39  <Celestar> ah!
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12:19:30  <planetmaker> 2f548902356c <-- that's the version for me, if I pull from the cargodest repo
12:19:47  <peter1138> Yes. That's not the last svn changeset.