Config
Log for #openttd on 28th August 2008:
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00:00:02  *** Sacro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [your turn ;)]
00:00:16  <reldred|werk> I like this bot :)
00:01:02  <glx> still no autorejoin
00:01:29  <reldred|werk> Ohwell, it's only Sacro. I get enough of him in #tycoon ;)
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00:15:07  <Belugas> reldred|werk, go on.  i will answer when i can
00:15:45  <Belugas> i usually spend the evening with my wife, so... be patient :)
00:21:56  <Phantasm> ;P
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01:58:47  <DaleStan> Is a link to the "List of download locations topic" valid in the OpenTTD forums?
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06:53:16  <Celestar> morning
07:00:40  <Forked> Good morning, sir
07:00:58  <Forked> I managed to get to work roughly on time today, but only because the gf kicked me out the door
07:02:14  <Celestar> haha
07:03:00  <Forked> great.. the shitty webapp that keeps track of all our users etc is not working.
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07:13:29  <Celestar> bah I don't get this linker error of mine
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07:56:50  <peter1138> Isn't it good that you don't get it? :)
07:57:05  <Celestar> heh :P
07:57:12  <Celestar> peter1138: how badly do we want to eliminate global vars? (=
08:00:11  <Forked> and here I read "wars"
08:00:18  <Celestar> :P
08:00:30  <Celestar> peter1138: like so: http://www.fvfischer.de/noglobal.diff
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08:03:00  <Celestar> peter1138: good or not good?
08:03:19  <Celestar> (maybe we should put a using namespace RoutingBase_t in the critical files, cargopacket and order)
08:04:55  <peter1138> Well, global vars should be prefixed with _, and should be lower case, anyway.
08:05:01  *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred|werk
08:05:48  <Celestar> well, there are no global vars once we apply that diff (in the Routing system)
08:05:52  <reldred|werk> Belugas: Well, we're in different timezones, I work, etc. etc. My IRC client is always left on, so conversations spread over several days aren't at all alien to me.
08:06:04  <reldred|werk> Belugas: Basic questions really
08:06:54  <reldred|werk> Belugas: How many classes max, how many objects on-map at once, how many objects per class. Proposed sizes (ttdpatch is aiming for 1x1 up to 15x15), irregular layouts (Lakie is considering it), and so forth.
08:07:42  <reldred|werk> Belugas: I've been in close contact with Lakie over his coding of the ttdpatch implementation, but seeing as how I'll likely be coding the first comprehensive (And quite bloody large considering how many sprites SAC already has readY) set using newobjects
08:08:03  <reldred|werk> Belugas: i should probably then get to know how it's going to work in openttd.
08:08:57  <reldred|werk> Belugas: Plus, I tend to prefer OpenTTD over TTDPatch these days anyway ;)
08:09:25  * reldred|werk scuttles back to #tycoon
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08:11:30  <Celestar> peter1138: is that a 'go' for the diff?
08:12:40  <peter1138> I don't really have time to look at it.
08:20:18  <Celestar> k (=
08:20:25  <Celestar> I'll poke Rubidium then :P
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08:26:38  * Celestar pokes Rubidium (=
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08:42:39  <Pikka|afk> you're all mad!
08:42:43  *** Pikka|afk is now known as Pikka
08:42:57  <Pikka> but mainly peter1138
08:43:13  <Celestar> :P
08:43:14  <Celestar> why?
08:43:29  * Rubidium silently bleeds to death
08:43:41  <Pikka> that's just the way he is
08:46:23  <Celestar> Rubidium: it was a blunt spoon :P
08:46:50  <peter1138> Why am I mad?
08:47:18  <Celestar> Rubidium: I got two questions. 1) What's out coding guidelines towards naming files .h or .hpp, 2) RFC: http://www.fvfischer.de/noglobal.diff
08:48:34  <Rubidium> 1 there isn't one, 2 I'm not awake enough to parse/lex diffs
08:49:33  <Celestar> Rubidium: roger, roger
08:49:47  <Celestar> Rubidium: 3) how badly want to eliminate global variables?
08:51:50  <peter1138> By your argument...
08:52:06  <Rubidium> I'm not against global variables
08:52:10  <peter1138> class GlobalVar_t { static <etc etc> };
08:52:20  <Rubidium> I'm against global global variables (e.g. variables.h)
08:52:32  <peter1138> It's still a global variable ;)
08:52:56  <Celestar> peter1138: but it's better encapsulated (=
08:53:15  <peter1138> So slower? ;)
08:53:18  <Celestar> then just have "typename somevar;" somehwere in the code :P
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09:14:04  * Celestar just goes committing this
09:14:41  <Celestar> I'll bbl
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09:25:19  <peter1138> Heh
09:26:10  * peter1138 ponders some railtype callbacks.
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09:27:46  <fjb> Hello
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09:28:11  <Brianetta> I'd like to play with reduced breakdowns enabled, but I don't want to play a game where my trains keep taking themselves off to a depot without my say so.
09:28:30  <SpComb> cht: servint!
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09:28:49  <peter1138> Hmm, service interval of ... something.
09:28:51  <Brianetta> SpComb: This is #openttd
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09:29:53  <Brianetta> "Disable servicing when breakdowns set to none" should be just "Disable servicing"
09:30:20  <peter1138> servint_ispercent, along with the other servint_ settings should be per-company, not global.
09:30:47  <peter1138> Disable servicing should be per-company too.
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09:30:52  <Celestar> heyo Progman :D
09:30:58  <Brianetta> yes, ideally
09:31:24  * peter1138 ponders implementing that
09:31:35  * Celestar needs a comp with more I/O bandwidth
09:31:37  <peter1138> It's been needed to autorenew for ages anyway.
09:31:38  <Brianetta> It really bugs me when a train carrying hundreds of passengers pulls into a depot for servicing.
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09:31:54  <Celestar> Brianetta: that's why my trains NEVER go to a depot with cargo loaded
09:32:13  <Brianetta> Celestar: Mine don't either.
09:32:24  <Brianetta> Also, I usually have only one depot on my network.
09:32:25  <peter1138> Celestar, yes, but how do you enforce that?
09:32:43  <Brianetta> If I have more than one, I'll only buy stock at one designated ont; the rest are for marshalling only.
09:33:01  *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
09:33:15  * TrueBrain donates some random IO to Celestar
09:33:29  <Celestar> peter1138: simple: http://www.fvfischer.de/depot.png
09:34:08  <peter1138> :o
09:34:18  <fjb> Cool
09:34:20  <Brianetta> Is that jump thing in the trunk?
09:34:24  <Celestar> Brianetta: yeah of course
09:34:27  <fjb> Xes
09:34:30  <fjb> Yes
09:34:36  <Brianetta> cool
09:34:46  <Brianetta> Are there any other conditions?
09:34:52  <peter1138> And having a depot order prevents automatic depoting...?
09:34:57  <Celestar> it also cannot enter the depot from the "free side" of the track. only the platform
09:35:00  <Celestar> peter1138: yes. since ages.
09:35:16  <Brianetta> Since 0.6.2
09:35:19  <peter1138> Okay. I never used depot orders either :o
09:35:42  <Brianetta> I might re-enable breakdowns on my server if all this works properly like
09:35:51  <Celestar> it does imho
09:36:09  <peter1138> I still think we should make some of those settings be per-company :)
09:36:17  <Brianetta> although "no loading" in my case would be "unlead and leave empty"
09:36:30  <Celestar> peter1138: Brianetta: placement of depot: http://www.fvfischer.de/depotplace.png
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09:36:50  <Celestar> Brianetta: there's no need, since my trains only go to depots on their terminals, so they are empty by definition with "No loading" ;)
09:37:09  <SpComb> Celestar: if you want nice I/O benchmarks, then just use /dev/null and lo
09:37:14  <Brianetta> Celestar: That assumes that cargo acceptance never changes.
09:37:18  <SpComb> problem solved
09:37:19  <Brianetta> I don't make such assumptions (:
09:37:31  <Brianetta> Where's the depot in that picture?
09:37:35  <Brianetta> It's transparent ):
09:37:38  <peter1138> Bottom left.
09:37:41  <Celestar> Brianetta: bottom left
09:37:46  <Brianetta> I thought that was a station
09:37:46  <peter1138> Tons of them, heh..
09:37:49  <Celestar> yeah
09:37:56  <Celestar> as long as the platform
09:38:07  <Brianetta> I use one depot embedded in a newgrf goods shed
09:38:19  <peter1138> Single multi-tile depots would be nice.
09:38:37  * SpComb is currently clocking 3Gbit/s in his iftop
09:38:53  <Celestar> Brianetta: better? http://www.fvfischer.de/notrans.png
09:38:54  <peter1138> Then you can add the option of disallowing trains longer than the depot to use it.
09:39:04  <Brianetta> Actually, yes (:
09:39:09  <Celestar> SpComb: I don't need benchmarks, but I'm working on 2TB of data here
09:39:21  <SpComb> Celestar: mv 2tb-data-file /dev/null
09:39:29  <SpComb> and then just fetch it back from there
09:39:30  <Brianetta> Celestar: You know the platform exit signals aren't required any longer, because the devs thought that explaining them to people was too hard?
09:39:50  <Celestar> Brianetta: platforms should have exit signals imho
09:39:57  <Brianetta> That's it; they do
09:39:59  <Brianetta> just like depots
09:40:12  <peter1138> No they don't.
09:40:47  <peter1138> Saying "the devs" to Celestar is... wrong :p
09:40:52  <Celestar> I wonder whether I should try to build Munich central station in openttd ;)
09:41:27  <peter1138> Brianetta, do you have a cite for "explaining them to people was too hard" >?
09:41:44  <peter1138> Explaining lack of signals is... weirder to me.
09:41:49  <Celestar> heh (=
09:42:05  <Ammler> stations are "just" safe places...
09:42:27  <Ammler> but imo, now all places are safe where a train is, arent?
09:42:30  <peter1138> Ammler, they're not.
09:42:58  <Celestar> Brianetta: http://www.sporenplan.nl/figuren/tekeningen/db_normaal/db_bayern/muenchen.pdf <= how's that? (=
09:43:16  <peter1138> "aren't they"
09:43:20  <Ammler> peter1138: but there is no "builtin" signal?
09:43:38  <peter1138> Ammler, it's end-of-line handling.
09:44:02  <peter1138> If the track continued beyond the station, that would be reserved too.
09:44:32  <Ammler> you can see that well, if you have a roro station, the reserved path won't stop at station.
09:44:46  <Ammler> :-)
09:44:49  <peter1138> Exactly.
09:45:18  <Ammler> that tells me, there is no signal, so you need to place signals there...
09:45:42  <Brianetta> peter1138: re cite: Let me find the forum post that gave that impression to me...
09:46:55  <Celestar> HEH
09:47:01  <Celestar> there's still a turntable in Garmisch
09:47:12  <Brianetta> Useful for locos with noses
09:47:29  <Brianetta> They were rare int he UK.  Far more common to use a wye.
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09:47:53  <Celestar> wyeß
09:47:54  <Celestar> wye?
09:48:05  <Brianetta> Named for its shape - Y
09:48:11  <Brianetta> Just a Y-shaped piece of track
09:48:11  <Celestar> ah
09:48:12  <Ammler> peter1138: since trains reserve everything, they drive on, doesn't that mean, they are "safe" all the time...
09:48:27  <Celestar> there's one of the "push-tables" (dunno name) in Munich, still active.
09:48:36  <Brianetta> Ammler: Safe, but not waiting.
09:49:15  <Celestar> where you can put an engine onto like 8 parallel trains by pushing
09:50:19  <peter1138> Ammler, no it doesn't.
09:50:34  <peter1138> Ammler, it means other trains won't reserve a path through them, but that doesn't make them safe.
09:51:08  <Ammler> not less "safe" then on stations...
09:51:26  <peter1138> then?
09:51:30  <Ammler> than
09:51:38  <peter1138> Much less safe
09:51:51  <Brianetta> A stopped train is safe anywhere.
09:52:23  <Celestar> Brianetta: so are we going to rebuild that thing? :P
09:52:37  <Brianetta> rebuild what thing?
09:52:43  <Celestar> the pdf I liked above (=
09:52:50  <Brianetta> we?
09:53:55  <Celestar> like in a coop game :P
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09:54:54  <Brianetta> peter1138: I can't find it on the forum, so I'm going to have to trawl the IRC logs
09:55:00  <SpComb> Logs: http://zapotek.paivola.fi/~terom/logs/openttd
09:55:00  <Brianetta> !logs
09:55:38  <Brianetta> oh, that doesn't have any easy way to search for something said several days ago
09:55:48  <peter1138> Celestar: yes!
09:55:51  <Brianetta> oh it does (:
09:55:56  <Celestar> peter1138: yes what? (=
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09:56:03  <peter1138> Rebuild that ;)
09:56:14  <Celestar> peter1138: will try to
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09:56:18  <Celestar> with our without cities?
09:56:34  <peter1138> Add the cities later ;)
09:56:48  *** Yexo__ is now known as Yexo
09:56:51  <Celestar> how? :P
09:57:00  <peter1138> In the scenario editor...
09:57:04  <Celestar> ok ..
09:57:10  <Celestar> I'll do that with the cargodest branch, k? (=
09:57:16  <Celestar> er no.
09:57:18  <Celestar> better not :P
09:57:22  <peter1138> No :)
09:57:23  <fjb> We need bigger towns and bigger maps. :-)
09:57:33  <peter1138> You need to cheat to build the network, so...
09:57:40  <Celestar> yeah
09:57:47  <fjb> A friend always complains that my stations are "monsters".
09:58:03  <Brianetta> peter1138: Can't find it; you get to choose whether or not to believe me.
09:59:32  <peter1138> "I've got one email with a couple of pictures attached, it's not very big"£
09:59:34  <peter1138> Aug 28 10:40:58 smtp1 postfix/cleanup[32690]: warning: A814E30000E7: queue file size limit exceeded
09:59:38  <peter1138> Mmmmhmm
09:59:49  <Brianetta> heh
10:00:00  <peter1138> Limit is 50MB
10:00:50  <fjb> Should be 1GB today. Sending backups.
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10:02:21  <peter1138> Not by email, thanks.
10:02:22  *** mortal [~mortal@217.61.144.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:03:18  <fjb> Ok, post them to usenet.
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10:09:51  <fjb> I'm always missing the right time for uilding a metro network.
10:10:09  <Brianetta> 1920 is the right time.
10:10:16  <Brianetta> Just don't put any trains on it.
10:10:20  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm not building subways or trams (yet) :P
10:11:46  <fjb> I'm having not the money forbuilding things not needed at that time.
10:12:31  <peter1138> Cheat menu :D
10:12:51  <peter1138> Of course, when you have enough money, the towns hate you anyway.
10:14:12  <fjb> I don't like the cheat menu.
10:14:50  <fjb> The towns always hate for building things they need. Stupid towns.
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10:17:21  <Brianetta> Towns often won't let me blow up their churches.
10:17:25  <Brianetta> I'm doing them a favour.
10:17:28  <Brianetta> Noisy bells.
10:19:32  <fjb> Religion is a bad thing anyway. It only leads to wars.
10:20:59  <Brianetta> Not only wars
10:21:19  <Brianetta> It also leads to oppression, cultish behaviour, curtailment of basic human rights
10:21:21  <Brianetta> All sorts of things
10:21:34  <Brianetta> Not to mention clanging bells
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10:23:59  <fjb> Yeah.
10:24:19  <peter1138> This is probably a silly question... but can I play Bluray discs on a PC running Linux...
10:25:39  <murray> ..
10:25:59  <peter1138> I'll get my coat...
10:26:07  <fjb> If it is unencrypted you should.
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10:29:09  <fjb> Brianetta: Are you a fan of "Life of Brian"?
10:30:09  <Brianetta> I own a copy of the original script, but otherwise not especially
10:30:53  <Brianetta> Interestingly, the original script is rather different to the film
10:31:01  <Brianetta> They ad-libbed an awful lot for the camera
10:31:05  <fjb> Ah, wondered because your nick...
10:31:12  <Brianetta> ?
10:31:27  <Brianetta> What about my nick?
10:31:39  <fjb> Brienetta. Brian is called that in one scene of the movie.
10:32:42  <Brianetta> I don't recall
10:34:18  <fjb> It's too long ago I saw the movie, so I can not tell you where in the movie that happens.
10:34:36  <Celestar> bah
10:34:38  <Celestar> it doesn't fit
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10:37:25  <peter1138> On a large map?
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10:41:03  <peter1138> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/BluRayAndHDDVD
10:41:04  <peter1138> :o
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10:46:06  <Celestar> peter1138: nah side-by-side. All those buffer stops are giving me headaches
10:46:33  <peter1138> hmm
10:47:10  <peter1138> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/143036 :o
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10:58:27  <Celestar> oh dear
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11:02:32  <Forked> yes, honey?
11:02:47  <Forked> ok I admit it, I'm mostly annoying.. and I'm sorry :\
11:04:22  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm getting there :P
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11:14:27  <fjb> 20.000 passengers waiting at the airport. :-(
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11:15:38  <Celestar> fjb: bigger planes? :P
11:16:09  <fjb> It's 1967, biggest plane is a 707.
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11:16:25  <fjb> And biggest airport is the city airport.
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11:18:46  <fjb> That are more than 1000 707 needed to move that amount of passengers...
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11:21:21  <Celestar> er?
11:21:25  <Celestar> 100 ..
11:21:36  <fjb> Oh, ok, still a lot. :-)
11:22:34  <fjb> Cargo destinations has no load balancing yet?
11:22:44  <Celestar> BAH: http://www.fvfischer.de/MUCHBF.png
11:22:54  <Celestar> fjb: between routes? nope, and I won't have in the first incarnation
11:22:58  <Celestar> it*
11:23:15  <Celestar> peter1138: that link was for you :P
11:23:30  <fjb> Cool station.
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11:23:48  <Celestar> fjb: I'm trying to re-create munich central station
11:24:39  <fjb> Hm, so having two airpors at each town and a tram line servicing both wont work forr ballancing?
11:25:06  <Celestar> you could have one airport servicing a certain number of cities, and another airport serving other cities
11:25:50  <fjb> Celestar: The metro is missing. Where is the fun when you don't have to hurry from one end of munich central station to the other end to catch the last metro?
11:26:20  <Celestar> fjb: it's partly there :P
11:26:29  <fjb> Celestar: I already did that. But those passengers wat to get to one of the other towns.
11:26:37  <Celestar> fjb: and I think the station is rather compact in Munich
11:27:00  <Celestar> fjb: you DON'T go from the S-Bahn to the U4/U5. You just don't do it. You change at Stachus :)
11:27:07  <fjb> Celestar: Yeah, I alwys managed to catch the metro in the last second.
11:27:39  <Celestar> it get's nasty if you get in from Garmisch on platform 33-35 and have to run to the U5 however
11:27:50  <Celestar> They should finally get Munich 21 approved and tear the whole thing down
11:28:22  <fjb> I don't recall the line I needed.
11:28:33  <Celestar> if it's long, it's the U4/U5 mostly :P
11:28:42  <Celestar> the U1/U2 are more easily accessible
11:28:48  <Celestar> and Trams 16,17,18,19,20,21 work too
11:32:00  <fjb> I needed to go near Starnberg.
11:32:30  <Celestar> hm
11:32:30  <Celestar> S6 that is
11:32:31  <fjb> And I used the ICE coming from Hannover.
11:32:33  <Celestar> I live there.
11:32:47  <Celestar> hm .. Frankfurt 21 is dead, Munich 21 is dead.
11:32:52  <Celestar> Stupid
11:32:59  <Celestar> I mean Munich 21 was not really needed, but Frankfurt 21 is.
11:33:39  <Celestar> I really really hope they get Stuttgart 21 done.
11:33:48  <Celestar> otherwise the DB is dead for years to come
11:34:11  <Celestar> It's no good to have high-speed trains if you have stupid terminal stations everywhere.
11:34:11  <fjb> I don't know enough abou which stations are needed.
11:34:32  <Celestar> fjb: DB needs to get rid of the terminal stations, especially in the middle of the country, where trains don't end.
11:34:35  <peter1138> heh, that's big.
11:34:46  <Celestar> fjb: It's ok in Munich, since over 90% of the trains end or begin here.
11:34:52  <Celestar> in in Frankfurt it's just stupid.
11:35:00  <Celestar> plus terminals are horribly expensive to maintain.
11:35:04  <fjb> They got rid of many after WW2, at least around here.
11:36:07  <Celestar> the amount of double-slips right in front of Munich central is crazy.
11:37:09  <Celestar> each of them (I am told) costs like 10 times as much to maintain then a normal low-speed switch
11:37:19  <fjb> Yes, but that is almost like I use to build it in TTD. :-)
11:37:52  <Celestar> hehe
11:37:53  <Celestar> yeah
11:38:18  <Celestar> and Munich Central needs 32 platforms to cope with the traffic because it's a terminal
11:38:33  <Celestar> (plus 6 subway and 2 S-bahn)
11:38:46  <Celestar> with a through station, you'd need only about 12-16 platforums
11:38:48  <Celestar> forms*
11:38:54  <fjb> Suggest to Belugas to make the infrastructure costs dependind on the the number of double-slips, for the sake of realism. :-)
11:38:57  <peter1138> Hmm..
11:39:03  <peter1138> So, larger towns...
11:39:11  <peter1138> Bigger catchments?
11:39:26  <Celestar> peter1138: ?
11:39:51  <Celestar> heh.. there are switches that allow a 150mph turnoff speed :o
11:39:52  <peter1138> 10:56  fjb> We need bigger towns and bigger maps. :-)
11:39:54  <peter1138> 10:56  fjb> A friend always complains that my stations are "monsters".
11:40:03  <peter1138> And your station...
11:40:23  <peter1138> We need towns that cover more area ;)
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11:40:33  <Celestar> peter1138: that's true :P
11:40:36  <peter1138> Sprawling suburbia...
11:40:42  <Celestar> peter1138: we need to finish cargodest imho
11:40:48  <peter1138> *shrug*
11:40:53  <fjb> An 6 x 8 station looks horrible big next to the usual TTD towns.
11:40:57  <peter1138> I'm multitasking, hence working on the railtype stuff...
11:41:04  <Celestar> peter1138: we're very nearly there.
11:41:24  <fjb> So I thought about towns looking bigger.
11:41:49  <peter1138> Sparser roads.
11:42:02  <peter1138> All optional :o
11:42:22  <peter1138> Celestar, did you do the cargo list view for non-trains yet?
11:42:48  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm on it
11:42:59  <Celestar> peter1138: but I dunno how to do it yet
11:43:02  <fjb> I guess I can gat away with 4 airports in that town.
11:43:11  <Celestar> peter1138: adding tabs to the view or doing it on the main window
11:43:27  <Celestar> peter1138: I'll leave you to it if you wish, cuz I'm horribly busy @ work today and tomorrow :S
11:43:51  <Celestar> that 150mph switch is 170m long and has 8 main motors
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12:12:19  <fjb> Tunnel beneath a coal mine... http://www.imgwelt.de/uploads/795C289N5EG.png
12:18:41  <Celestar> !rcon patch plane_speed 4
12:18:45  <Celestar> !rcon patch plane_speed 1
12:18:49  <Celestar> !rcon patch plane_speed 4
12:19:00  <Celestar> !rcon patch plane_speed 1
12:19:20  <Celestar> why doesn't it work? :o
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12:19:26  <Celestar> er .. wrong channel
12:20:05  <fjb> :-)
12:23:06  <TrueBrain> poor Celestar
12:23:17  <planetmaker> lol.
12:25:17  <Ammler> :-D
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12:26:46  <Sacro> Celestar: quti with the spamming
12:26:58  <peter1138> Yeah, get on with coding :D
12:31:56  *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
12:36:24  <Belugas> reldred, regarding yuor questions, let say that Lakie and I a working together on it.  So i'd say that the numbers should be quite the same
12:37:07  <Belugas> as time geos by, maybe some stuff would be easier done on Open's side, maybe some others on Patch's side
12:37:29  <Belugas> let say we are throwing a lot of ideas while still moving on the developpement
12:37:50  <Belugas> we do not followthe exact same path, but the specs are goig to be supported as they are currently
12:42:23  <Celestar> back
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12:56:00  <reldred> Belugas: Ahh, okay, what was worrying me is the limit of 2048 objects on the map at a time in TTDPatch's implementation. Not a huge issue on a 256x256 map, but OpenTTD can have significantly larger maps.
12:56:52  <Belugas> that is the pool size
12:57:06  <Belugas> i was thinking about 8000 items
12:57:29  <Belugas> but it's a value that could be changed easily if required
12:59:41  <Belugas> but consider that this it not the pool of object TYPES
12:59:45  <Belugas> just.. the created ones
13:00:47  <Belugas> ho... and Lakie is plannign of using 400ish types, while, for technical reasons similar to those of newhouses, we will have 512 minus 4 possible types
13:04:37  <peter1138> ...
13:04:44  <peter1138> Why?
13:05:17  <peter1138> Does each item get its own ID?
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13:05:56  <peter1138> If each item has its own ID, then the number of item types can be unlimited.
13:06:34  <peter1138> If each item does not have its own ID, then you've got tons of space of types.
13:08:29  <reldred> Belugas: It was mainly just the created, on map objects I was worried most about.
13:08:31  <Belugas> the object id is in the map, on m5, like industry tiles
13:08:55  <Belugas> the pool's index is on m2 (i think)
13:09:00  <reldred> I'm heading to bed, leave hilights and I'll read them tomorrow
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13:09:30  <reldred> Thanks for clarifying things for me, Belugas.
13:09:34  <peter1138> m2 gives you 65535 different objects on the map
13:09:35  <Belugas> peter1138, how different would you do it?  maybe my pattern is falwed from start
13:09:42  <Belugas> no problem reldred
13:10:01  <reldred> When I get some test .grf's ready to go for Lakie, I'll let you know. I should have a lot of material to hammer the new feature with.
13:10:08  <reldred> Cheers :)
13:10:15  *** reldred is now known as reldred|gone
13:10:34  <peter1138> If that references an object pool, then a uint32 in there gives you 4 billion types...
13:11:18  <peter1138> Along with things like build date, colours, etc...
13:11:25  <peter1138> Random bits :D
13:13:43  <peter1138> No?
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13:17:47  <Celestar> meh there is some desync issues in the new cargolist cache :S
13:18:09  <Belugas> peter1138, yes, we'll have random bits and all those joyfully features :)
13:18:17  <peter1138> Ho..
13:18:23  <peter1138> Just looking at industries...
13:18:28  <Belugas> but i'm not sure about the 4 billion types
13:18:38  <Belugas> yes, that is the model i had in mind
13:18:40  <peter1138> No.
13:18:45  <peter1138> That's wasteful
13:18:54  <peter1138> I shall fix that one day.
13:19:00  <Belugas> but it can be changed at any thime, it's jst the underlying scheme
13:19:13  <peter1138> Seriously, your m5 can be *unique* per object type
13:19:30  <peter1138> Then you get 256 different tiles for each object type (allowing for big layouts)
13:20:06  <peter1138> That should happen for industrytiles too, so that effectively there is no limit on the number of different tiles.
13:21:36  <peter1138> As houses only exist on the map, that way is fine.
13:22:33  <peter1138> Even with a uint16 as your in object pool, that's 64K types, instead of 512.
13:23:07  <peter1138> Probably way too many, but then so is 16 million sprites :)
13:23:24  <peter1138> Which reminds me, I can fix some issues with stations.
13:31:37  <peter1138> Hmm, I don't know how to change the industrytile system without blowing up savegames :o
13:34:46  <peter1138> Hmm, I think I can figure out how.
13:35:24  <peter1138> Yup, that'll work :D
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13:36:39  <peter1138> That would increase the industry limit considerably.
13:36:47  <peter1138> And also free up map space.
13:37:11  <peter1138> Annoyingly, I can't type too well at the moment :()
13:42:48  <Belugas> put your brain on slow mode :)  that would help the typing hhahah!
13:42:59  <Belugas> either way, you're much better than me :)
13:43:06  <Belugas> i read it all, but can't process right now
13:43:16  <Belugas> it feels like a very good way of doing
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14:26:26  <fjb> Big problem, default coal mines do accept nothing: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=39275 :-)
14:26:47  <glx> what should they accept?
14:27:15  <hylje> that's the joke
14:27:25  <glx> ha right ;)
14:27:32  <glx> I just read the post
14:28:30  <fjb> Coal mines don't dig the coal from the earth, they secretly buy that coal. But don't tell anybody...
14:32:21  <peter1138> Heh
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14:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... the local radio station just did a report about icanhascheezburger :p
14:37:53  <Celestar> this is weird
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14:42:38  <fjb> Hm, one sohhestion for a future version of cargo destinations: It would be helpful in the tree view when each hop would have a sybol of the vehicle type it uses to there.
14:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> it could be different types
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14:46:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> the old patch had such a tree view with vehicle types
14:46:43  <peter1138> different types == multiple icons, I guess
14:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> uargs... jpg screenshots...
14:50:34  <fjb> Yes, could be a list of icons. Would just help a bit.
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14:54:38  <fjb> The bulldozer icon needs a big red arrow pointing at it.
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15:06:22  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2, does it work?
15:06:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> how should i know ;
15:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> ;)
15:06:43  <peter1138> You should've tested it already! ;D
15:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> i didn't even read the whole post yet ;)
15:08:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> Maedhros' patch already worked quite well. it had a few quirks with the autospacing button, and synchronizing all trains to the same timetable length was a little cumbersome
15:08:58  *** fjb [~frank@p5485D4F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm hoping the clock will help with the last part ;)
15:09:37  <peter1138> Yeah
15:09:47  <peter1138> Well, I never tried any of them :)
15:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> the other patch worked quite well also, but it was only useful for single shared orders, it could not be used properly to synchronize separate routes
15:11:30  <peter1138> *nod*
15:12:04  <Mortal> to whom it may concern: since the wiki's Community portal link redirects to Village pump, http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/MediaWiki:Sidebar should probably be changed to reflect the change in name...
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15:40:48  <Celestar> peter1138: ok Ammler and I nettested cargodest again over 25 gameyears or something. There was a single desync very early one which we couldn't explain. Nothing happened later on and every went smoothly
15:43:02  <Celestar> performance looks excellent now
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15:46:02  <Celestar> I still wonder what to do with the per-wagon cargo view for trains. Any idea?
15:46:29  <peter1138> Per-wagon? Leave it as is.
15:46:52  <Celestar> even the "from" display? Because it's wrong
15:47:02  <peter1138> It's not wrong, it's misleading.
15:47:12  <Celestar> true
15:47:19  <Celestar> but people will yell :P
15:47:42  <Celestar> http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/index.php/Passenger_and_cargo_destinations#Known_problems <= That's all I can think of at the moment
15:48:55  <Celestar> oh and we need the icon for the minimap :P
15:49:10  <peter1138> rortom, is there a 64bit linux build yet?
15:50:56  <Rubidium> Celestar: ask skidd13
15:51:06  <Celestar> Rubidium: I have an icon (=
15:51:55  <peter1138> So put it in?
15:52:50  <Celestar> http://www.fvfischer.de/minimaprouting.tif <= comments?
15:53:00  <Celestar> and I dunno how to put an icon into openttd.grf :P
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15:56:30  <Celestar> > gprof openttd | wc -l
15:56:30  <Celestar> 24249
15:56:31  <Celestar> :S
15:57:57  <rortom> peter1138, we are workin on 0.36
15:58:09  <rortom> if there will be a 64 release for 0.36
15:58:27  <rortom> but its still some time till then
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16:00:25  <Celestar> 0.36?
16:00:27  <Celestar> of what?
16:00:37  <glx> rigs of rods
16:01:08  <FauxFaux> Hmm, I haven't played recent versions of that. Does the network server work on machines without vs2005 installed yet? :)
16:01:24  <peter1138> Compiling a 64 bit build shouldn't require any effort :o
16:01:58  <Ammler> no source for self compiling?
16:02:21  <FauxFaux> It was closed last time I looked.
16:02:31  <Ammler> rortom: why is it closed source? any license issues?
16:02:49  <FauxFaux> Maybe he doesn't want to release the source..?
16:03:30  <FauxFaux> Ooh, server is GPL.
16:04:10  <Ammler> FauxFaux: but I guess, there is a reason...
16:04:30  <peter1138> Ammler: I assume the developers have the source...
16:04:37  <FauxFaux> S/he does't feel like giving his hard work away for free?
16:05:07  <Ammler> oh, so they want to sell it somewhen
16:05:56  * FauxFaux would, of course, love to have the source, but expecting people to give it to you is just disgusting.
16:06:28  <yorick> someone might want to sell it somewhen
16:15:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> <peter1138> We need towns that cover more area ;) <- when cities expand, they should turn neighbouring towns into suburbs. with increased growth of small houses, but only few office houses
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16:17:50  <rortom> :)
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16:17:55  <rortom> server is gpl, indeed
16:18:21  <rortom> also, i could try to build 64 bit in a week or so, have exams now :/
16:19:02  *** yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
16:24:53  <fjb> tischkannte
16:24:58  <fjb> Ups
16:27:34  <peter1138> English only!
16:27:44  <peter1138> We spell it "oops"
16:28:04  <yorick> and "tableside"
16:28:18  <peter1138> yorick spoils the joke as usual.
16:28:42  <yorick> OR DOES IT?
16:30:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> /ignore helps :p
16:30:24  <yorick> IT SURE DOES
16:31:11  <fjb> Oops
16:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> ich kannte auch mal nen tisch :p
16:32:15  <frosch123> did he also knew Ups ?
16:32:35  <fjb> Moin frosch123
16:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> i doubt that he ever came in contact with UPS
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16:39:15  <TrueBrain> some people.. .:)
16:42:06  <Celestar> what an utter and complete mess
16:42:29  <TrueBrain> you should clean up your room more often
16:44:20  <Celestar> TrueBrain: I mean this: http://www.fvfischer.de/mess.png
16:44:44  <TrueBrain> lol :)
16:44:53  <Celestar> and this is a SMALL network
16:44:59  <TrueBrain> it really doesn't make any sense to me :)
16:45:48  <Celestar> I need bigger planes :P
16:46:15  <TrueBrain> it took me a while before I started to understand the data :p
16:46:36  <TrueBrain> but every indent is a new stop in between :p
16:46:46  <Celestar> yes
16:47:00  <hylje> inclusive?
16:47:02  <Celestar> you should have read the wiki :P
16:47:18  <TrueBrain> Celestar: well .. my attention is required elsewhere within the OpenTTD Community :)
16:47:45  <Celestar> TrueBrain: NoAI?
16:47:54  <hylje> and is something being done for the outlandish amounts of passengers generated by paxdest?
16:47:58  <TrueBrain> Celestar: currently not even that :)
16:48:16  <TrueBrain> compile-farm, website, other improvements in the backrooms of OpenTTD ..
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16:49:13  <Celestar> hylje: there is not a single additional passenger generated compared to vanilla (=
16:50:30  <Celestar> but yes, summin will be done :P
16:51:03  <fjb> We realy need a war desaster. That would stop that request on the farum and would keep the number of passengers small. :-)
16:51:20  <fjb> forum
16:54:00  <Celestar> :P
16:54:05  <Celestar> when is the Viscount released?
16:55:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: if anyting, war increases the amount of passenges...
16:56:43  <glx> Celestar: you'll need A380 ;)
16:57:06  <peter1138> The 2cc set has lots of very high capacity trains...
16:57:15  <peter1138> That may be a bug though :)
16:58:19  <Celestar> glx: wanna review some code? :P
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16:58:38  <extspotter> hello
16:58:45  <Celestar> hey
16:58:54  * glx is reading the forum for now (2 days and there's an insane amount of posts)
16:59:12  <glx> (some of them are insane too ;) )
16:59:35  <extspotter> yay Celestar!
16:59:35  <Celestar> hahah
16:59:38  <Celestar> extspotter: ?
16:59:41  <Celestar> how's you?
16:59:45  <extspotter> I'm good
17:00:03  <Celestar> I need a viscount and a commuter airport ;(((
17:00:12  <extspotter> you interested in helping out at the UK planeset
17:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> why would Celestar be interested in airplanes :p
17:00:44  <extspotter> We have got some non-uk/ireland/UKCD ATRs we need to do
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17:01:07  <extspotter> KLM and Air france from KLM UK and Airlinair
17:01:32  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2, does it work?
17:01:36  <Celestar> I *suck* at drawing
17:01:50  <Celestar> and that's the understatement of the century
17:01:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> peter1138: i really have no time for testing today
17:01:56  <peter1138> :(
17:02:06  <peter1138> Well I guess *I'll* just have to do it!
17:02:18  <extspotter> celestar - its not drawing its just painting
17:02:49  <peter1138> Er...
17:02:50  <Celestar> I suck at that too :P
17:02:56  <extspotter> I was just as lowsy at the start, but you just need practise
17:03:06  <peter1138> Is there much difference in pixel-art?
17:03:11  <extspotter> ?
17:04:01  <extspotter> it is if you already have something to paint rather than having to create a whole new model which looks correct and in scale
17:04:05  <fjb> Commuter airport comes too late...
17:04:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> we learned drawing in pointilism style in school
17:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> i really sucked at that, though
17:05:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> i generally sucked at painting anything that i did not see right in front of me
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17:05:50  <insulfrog> hi all :)
17:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i did make a few really good paintings/drawings occasionally
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17:08:32  <insulfrog> I know that some of you programmed a 'NoAI' company to build bus routes but has anyone tried to program a 'NoAI' company to build rail routes?
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17:09:21  <glx> insulfrog: NoAI doesn't support rail yet
17:09:26  <insulfrog> ah
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17:10:31  <extspotter> eddi
17:11:19  <extspotter> pointilism is not hard as long as you have a picture in front of you, zoom out frequently to check it and make sure that the colours all blend well
17:11:20  <peter1138> Hmm, takes a while to find all the right settings for it :o
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17:12:15  <insulfrog> I wonder who's working on NoAI so that it supports rail?
17:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> *cough* TrueBrain *cough*
17:12:43  <peter1138> Hmm.
17:12:54  <extspotter> Truebrian?
17:12:58  <peter1138> Can't see how to set the spacing between trains :o
17:12:59  <insulfrog> ah
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17:13:46  <insulfrog> (just though I ask :) )
17:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> he said something about "Headway", but i did never hear that word before ;)
17:14:22  <glx> insulfrog: rail is the hardest thing to support
17:15:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> apart from the junction placing logic, why is rail that much difficult than road (from the API perspective?)
17:15:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> +more
17:15:56  <peter1138> Ah, Ctrl click... :o
17:15:57  <extspotter> rail placing logic
17:16:02  <extspotter> signals
17:16:05  <extspotter> ?
17:16:17  <insulfrog> I wondered that
17:16:17  <extspotter> unjamming
17:16:28  <Yexo> insulfrog: nobody is working on rail currently
17:16:41  <extspotter> no other form of transport can get jammed anywhere as easily as trains
17:16:47  <extspotter> and those are easier to sort out
17:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> extspotter: that's not the point
17:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean something equivalent to the old AI, two fixed station layout, one siding layout, and basic track inbetween, then building two trains
17:17:41  <peter1138> Hmm, maybe not. They're all stuck in a station now waiting for the clock to go around :o
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17:17:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> peter1138: he said something like "press that button for the second train"
17:18:41  <Wolf01> hello
17:18:46  <insulfrog> hi
17:19:10  <Wolf01> uhm... wrong error message for one way roads
17:19:23  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause2: rail has more directions, so it's far from trivial to create a clean api that supports functions like: "In what direction are the rails on a tile?" (do we want to expose the railbits to the AIs, or just have functions like DoesRailTileConnect(a,b,c) like for road?)
17:19:57  <Wolf01> it says "already built" instead of something else, like "owned by..." when trying to make a city road one way
17:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> Wolf01: yes, some people already complained about that
17:20:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> Wolf01: it's because the building mechanism changed
17:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> Yexo: honestly, i think rail bits would be more useful for very advanced layouts
17:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> Yexo: maybe YAPF's FollowTrack function could be useful
17:24:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> as it already considers stuff like 90° turns
17:24:39  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause2: I agree that railbits might be needed, but imo that's not the preferred interface
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17:25:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> if the intention is to give the AI the same information as the human player, then rail bits will be needed
17:25:57  <Yexo> not necesarrily, the same information can be given via a functions that tests whether a tile connects two neighbouring tiles
17:26:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> and fixed layouts like the old AI's stations will be easier to do with rail bits, too
17:28:09  <Forked> I love cargodest
17:28:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe the AI should be augmented by copy-paste functionality :)
17:28:38  <insulfrog> I think to make a corner, once the 2 straight bits come within so many tiles within co-ordinates (lets say a limit of 3 tiles to corner target)), it will automatically use diagnal bit to connect them up (if you know what I mean
17:28:40  <insulfrog> )
17:28:42  <Wolf01> to copy human tracks?
17:28:59  <Wolf01> s/human/human's
17:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> to feed it human built layouts, which it can choose from a template database
17:29:25  <insulfrog> yeah
17:29:34  <insulfrog> the same can be used for junctions
17:30:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> in germany, "junction" and "station" mean the same thing
17:30:25  <insulfrog> i.e. the hubs
17:30:55  <Wolf01> also in italy mafia and govern mean the same thing
17:31:57  <peter1138> Hmm, there's no indication of the current time.
17:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> put it next to the date in the status bar
17:34:59  <insulfrog> for default, it will use the basic dreaded 'flat crossing', then it will update to a more suitable junction depends on traffic (AI could use waypoints as a 'traffic counter')
17:35:32  *** Milloflex [~ABC123@c83-249-134-27.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:36:33  * insulfrog is thinking of other ideas of rail in NoAI
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17:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> insulfrog: you are thinking way too advanced for starting an API
17:37:18  <insulfrog> proabably :p
17:37:39  <insulfrog> (can't hurt to dream though :p )
17:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm really only talking about giving it enough means to replicate the old AI, then improve from there
17:37:51  <insulfrog> yeah
17:40:23  <insulfrog> good idea
17:42:41  <TrueBrain> in this case, a very bad, but okay :)
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17:49:08  <insulfrog> hmm...
17:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> TrueBrain: well, you have to start somewhere...
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17:51:52  <TrueBrain> I wouldn't suggest starting where the old AI went wrong
17:51:57  <TrueBrain> might not be the best suggestion ;)
17:52:18  * Rubidium ponders why NoAI did start from scratch if it's better to expand the old AI
17:52:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> that's not what i suggested
17:54:39  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: what I mean, is that the old AI does some pretty weird things regarding rail-creation
17:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> what i suggested was a two part API: 1) a way to build fixed preconfigured junction/station layouts, 2) a way to connect two tiles with a more or less straight piece of track
17:54:47  <TrueBrain> it might be better to use a simple pathfinder
17:54:52  <TrueBrain> to make 1on1 connections between stations
17:54:56  <TrueBrain> ignoring all the other things
17:54:59  <TrueBrain> and improve from there
17:55:05  <TrueBrain> (so not using prefabs of any kind)
17:55:29  <Yexo> if you provide 2), 1) can be implemented by the AI itself, so there would be no need for an api for that
17:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> not when you teach 2) to avoid making crossings
17:56:20  <Yexo> and I think 2) + some helper functions (like CanBuildConnectedRoadHere but for rail) should do
17:56:53  *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:56:59  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause2: I thought with 2) you only ment neighbouring tiles / tiles in a straight line
17:57:07  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: really, connecting 2 points with rail is more useful than being about to put prefabs
17:57:21  <TrueBrain> prefabs is .. not only a whole lot of code to make that workable, also very useless in the long-run
17:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> honestly, i think with a few prefab junction layouts, some kind of steiner-tree library, and simple pathfinding of straight tracks you can do pretty good networks
17:57:51  <TrueBrain> if your AI starts out with connecting 2 stations with a single rail, you can teach is pretty simple to extend that to a mega complex of rail :)
17:58:07  <insulfrog> yeah
17:58:21  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: you are always free to make an AI which does that :)
17:58:27  <TrueBrain> just from an API point of view, it is rather silly
17:58:34  <TrueBrain> not to say much more complicated (and unclear)
17:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> the copy-paste patch already provides everything needed for prefab layouts ;)
17:59:26  <hylje> then some heuristics to determine busy track and a plan to improve those
17:59:35  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: which will never be in trunk, nor in NoAI
18:00:06  <Yexo> hylje: that will be one of the things the AI has to do itself (like with road, but that's one of the hardest parts currently)
18:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> Yexo: someone on the forum had a patch to teach YAPF for road about tile occupancy, that should help with load balancing parallel roads
18:01:52  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause2: but then the AI still has to detect that a road is to busy: ie when to build the second road?
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18:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> waypoint counters were suggested earlier
18:02:23  <insulfrog> yeah
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18:04:28  <Yexo> but as NoAI won't imlement anything not available to humans, that isn't an option as long as there is no patch for that in trunk
18:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> alternatively, you could randomly pick a vehicle, and check the area around it for other vehicles, and warn when that goes above a threshold
18:07:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g. you look 2 tiles ahead and 2 tiles back, and when you find more than 4 other vehicles, you mark that road as congested
18:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> and then try to build a parallel route
18:07:41  <Yexo> that still doesn't help, as ok, the tile the vehicle is on is (maybe) overused. (what to do when breakdowns is on?). But where should the parallel route start and end?
18:08:49  <insulfrog> a 'train counter' will basically count how many trains that pass through (say every 4 months) and then calculates the average (mean) of the number of trains a year
18:09:27  <Yexo> insulfrog: <Yexo> but as NoAI won't imlement anything not available to humans, that isn't an option as long as there is no patch for that in trunk
18:09:52  <insulfrog> can't hurt to suggest it though
18:10:11  <Yexo> in that case, suggest it for trunk, not for NoAI
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18:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> waypoints might help for rail junctions, but not for road junctions. as with roads, you have far more junctions and far shorter segments
18:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> Yexo: when you find such an occupied tile, you try to build a parallel road from the previous junction to the next, and then check the area around these two tiles for further conjestion
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18:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> possibly also making both roads one way
18:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> about the breakdown thing, when you first check that a congestion occurs, you can check back twice at later times, and then take an average
18:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> that should already yield pretty stable results
18:20:28  * peter1138 ponders a rethink about crossings
18:23:53  <extspotter> have you mused anything new, peter?
18:25:18  <peter1138> Only that it is horribly messy code with all this tram stuff.
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18:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> there might be uses for 3 different road types on the same tile
18:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g when you have roads in 4 directions
18:30:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> a tram line in 2 directions
18:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> and a trolleybus catenary in a 3rd direction
18:30:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> (where trolleybus and tram share the same catenary for simplicity)
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19:00:42  *** nappe1 [ohj8laka@adsl-109-202-79.kymp.net] has joined #openttd
19:01:00  <nappe1> good evening everyone...
19:01:23  *** Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has joined #openttd
19:01:32  <nappe1> has there been reports of NewGRF window working wrongly at 14180?
19:01:53  <nappe1> as I have some great difficulties to get any NewGRF to work...
19:02:12  <insulfrog> you know, every time the current AI wants to build something, it always terraforms a patch of land first. even if the land is almost flat
19:02:18  <FauxFaux> Yeah, this guy called nappel joined the channel and gave no useful information, so we couldn't work out what was wrong or tell anyone else there was problems.
19:02:30  <nappe1> FauxFaux: hold on you horses. :D
19:02:33  <FauxFaux> insulfrog: Why not? It doesn't cost anything. :)
19:03:44  <peter1138> Hmm, conditional orders mess up timetables, or something.
19:04:08  <nappe1> FauxFaux: I am trying to figure out if it is just me... :) I was working on my own build with some patches but found this and at first went to nightly, cleaned up all settings and savegames and still the same...
19:04:22  <insulfrog> yeah but when we humans terraform, it costs us a bomb
19:04:38  <insulfrog> (Is the AI cheating somehow?
19:04:40  <insulfrog> )
19:04:52  <Prof_Frink> insulfrog: Yes.
19:05:02  <insulfrog> thought so ¬_¬
19:05:07  <FauxFaux> It should be using it's superior brain to anihilate you. ¬_¬
19:07:14  *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@5350C1D1.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
19:07:33  <nappe1> If I activate GRVTS from main menu and launch new game, I can't build tram tracks even though trams are listed in available vechiles window. However, if I go to NEW GRF menu it says it is activated. Again if I select GRVTS and press activate and accept crash risk, the it allows building not just tramtracks, but even maglev, though year is 1950...
19:08:00  <nappe1> and rev is latest nightly, 14180.
19:09:06  <nappe1> should it work like this? it used to work differently at 13020 which I was using earlier...
19:09:27  <peter1138> Works for me :o
19:09:36  <nappe1> okay, so it is me then...
19:10:24  <nappe1> I just wonder where I could have something wrong... I have removed all saves from my documents at least few times to make sure that I don't have anything wrong...
19:11:08  <peter1138> Hmm
19:11:13  <peter1138> Actually it doesn't :o
19:11:48  <yorick> heh
19:12:18  <yorick> peter1138 possibly caused a small tiny micro bug that disallows users building trams :-P
19:12:35  <nappe1> peter1138: wheeh... I have been hunting down this 2 days already, as I thought it's one of my own patches... it's actually nice to heard that it is not just me then. :D
19:12:47  <Prof_Frink> peter1138! newfixit!
19:13:03  <fjb> Trams are evel, they killed Gaudi.
19:13:27  <nappe1> and oh... I did update Daylenght patch to 14180 with my friend... as soon as I have confirmed it works, I'll upload the diff to forums.
19:14:13  <yorick> nappe1: the daylenght patch was at 141** already
19:14:26  <frosch123> why does the 3rd part of "duewag be 4/6" have a different color (serbian trams ottd remix)
19:14:31  <nappe1> yorick: is it?
19:14:41  <yorick> I remember porting it...
19:14:46  <nappe1> I must have missed that then...
19:15:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have only ever seen dÃŒwags with 2 parts...
19:15:44  <nappe1> yorick: ah... yeah, well... as I am tortoise user, I had a small difficulties to apply the patch but luckily my friend plays our build in mac so he got it sorted out. :)
19:15:45  <yorick> oh, the r13691 version applied to r141**
19:15:57  <yorick> huh, "our build"?
19:16:45  <nappe1> yorick: we have been playing own build (includes few public patches and few our own) in non-public server...
19:17:05  <yorick> what non-public server
19:17:12  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause2: I mean the trailer
19:17:27  <nappe1> yorick: means, it is not listed in internet games...
19:17:41  <yorick> oh, that one
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19:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i haven't used the serbian tram set that long...
19:18:41  <nappe1> yorick: and it runs as dedicated on my second computer... we thought it would be better that way though it has own version numbering scheme.
19:19:25  *** Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:19:54  <yorick> nappe1: just run your own masterserver then, too
19:20:01  <yorick> or use some other join key
19:20:08  <yorick> password
19:20:51  <nappe1> yorick: that is option too...
19:22:11  <nappe1> anyways, I am hoping to find some time to work with DayLenght more... while I added industry production factor feature, I had some great ideas but back then I didn't have time to put them in... hopefully I'll have some time soon enough.
19:23:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> industry production change must call the industry newgrf callback every daylength*256 ticks
19:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> and similar for the tileloop house callback
19:26:03  <planetmaker> nappe: though you can set a server password. Then no person you don't want, can join
19:26:12  <planetmaker> nappe1: ^^
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19:32:11  <yorick> the daylenght has a problem with the chat message log
19:32:24  <yorick> it executes a daily loop
19:32:31  <yorick> and that could take rather long
19:33:41  <nappe1> planetmaker: yeah, but as we have quite different base costs (and done as ugly patch hack way, not as GRF) and no idea how stable the build is, we decided run it as hidden. :) if this new build is better, it might be visible in master server. Not that hiding makes any difference, but it felt like good idea bakc then. :D
19:34:15  * yorick bruteforce idea comes up with
19:34:17  <nappe1> yorick: I'll try to check that... another thing is that the automatic save is defaulted to every day. :D that needs to be changed. :D
19:34:36  <yorick> no it isn't
19:34:44  <yorick> just it loads the old config value
19:34:54  <yorick> and decides it needs to be the first savesetting
19:35:18  <nappe1> yorick: and yes, when you don't have cfg, it takes the first one, which is Every day. :D
19:35:31  <yorick> that is wrong :)
19:36:10  <nappe1> yorick: definetely. :D I will fix it on 14180 patch... :)
19:37:08  <nappe1> or if that is not the case, then I have been very very very tired last night while debuging... ;)
19:37:25  <nappe1> as I deleted the cfg at least 6 times.
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19:38:25  <fjb> frosch123: It depends, some have a different trailer, some don't.
19:40:01  *** yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
19:43:25  <FauxFaux> What's this, an svn update without conflicts? It must be lying to me.
19:43:53  *** Brianetta [~brian@client-86-27-115-128.bmly.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: TschÌß]
19:45:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> somebody should have shown http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39276 to Brianetta...
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19:53:38  * peter1138 kicks CIA-1
19:53:38  <CIA-1> ow
19:53:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14182 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp): -Fix: After applying NewGRF settings, all rail and road types were available as the engine availability check was performed too early.
19:55:56  <peter1138> So ner.
19:57:20  <TrueBrain> @openttd commit
19:57:21  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by peter1138 :: r14182 /trunk/src (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp) (2008-08-28 19:53:25 UTC)
19:57:22  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Fix: After applying NewGRF settings, all rail and road types were available as the engine availability check was performed too early.
19:57:26  <TrueBrain> DorpsGek at least is nice :)
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20:01:09  <peter1138> So, yeah, both those bugs fixed, nappe1.
20:01:57  <insulfrog> hmm, I know what I want to accomplish but implementing it is going to be a tad difficult
20:05:35  <insulfrog> I want to make the current AI so that it checks to see if the area it wishes to build any station/airport on is already flat in a certain area but I'm unsure if that is already implemented or not (good idea if you are already playing on a flat-ish map though)
20:07:22  *** FauxFaux [~faux@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:08:03  <insulfrog> here is the pseudo-code: - If target ground = flat (say an 8*8 square area), then terraform = false, else terraform = true
20:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> insulfrog: just don't...
20:13:26  <insulfrog> ok
20:14:23  * insulfrog is just going to concentrate in playing the game now :)
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20:31:45  <insulfrog> cya
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20:44:58  <Wolf01> 'night
20:45:02  <extspotter> bye]
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20:58:44  <fjb> I wish the ships would be lining up next to each other in the harbour.
20:58:57  *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5DEAD.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
21:01:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> finish newgrf_ports :p
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21:09:20  <fjb> :-P
21:10:25  *** Milloflex [~ABC123@c83-249-134-27.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:12:01  <peter1138> Bah
21:12:16  <peter1138> Seems this timetable thing does not work with conditional orders
21:19:11  *** extflyer [~extspotte@host86-133-245-234.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
21:20:57  <peter1138> Hmm
21:21:09  <peter1138> Another problem is, a trip to the depot makes them late
21:21:45  *** Milloflex [~ABC123@h-87-111.A175.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
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21:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> isn't that a problem for timetables in general?
21:34:05  <peter1138> I think so :)
21:35:25  <peter1138> Hmm, seems to keep them apart nicely, somehow.
21:36:00  <peter1138> On my two-train two-station route they both leave and arrive at the same time.
21:36:23  <peter1138> They were chasing each other a few moments ago :D
21:43:01  <fjb> Is there a way to declare a road one way for trams?
21:43:44  <Ammler> fjb: with WPs
21:44:26  <fjb> I thought about that as a work around. A one way road would have been more simple.
21:47:05  <fjb> Tram lock are bad.
21:47:10  <fjb> locks
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21:49:33  <Ammler> road vehicle WPs rocks, imo. :-)
21:52:53  <fjb> WP?
21:53:53  <Ammler> Waypoints
21:54:14  <Ammler> you can't use road stops as wps that long
21:54:34  <Ammler> [23:53] <PublicServer> <AmmIer> and to prove autoreplace as MP safe
21:54:35  <Ammler> [23:53] <PublicServer> *** AmmIer has left the game (desync error)
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21:54:44  <Ammler> :-)
21:56:10  <peter1138> Hmm
21:56:11  <fjb> Ah, yes.
21:56:48  <fjb> Oh, oh...
21:56:50  <peter1138> This vehicle is currently running on time
21:57:03  <peter1138> I ought not to be using UKRS :D
21:58:45  *** [com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has quit [Quit: Operator, give me an exit]
22:00:31  <Kloopy> lol
22:01:51  <Ammler> I am desync because I try to join a running game after some hours...
22:02:06  <Ammler> the others which are playing there keep connected...
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22:04:42  *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
22:15:08  <fjb> peter1138: Try DBset. :-)
22:18:30  *** elmex [~elmex@e180067210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:22:04  <nappe1> peter1138: excelent, thank you very much fixing those. :) Now I am back to track compile my own extra hard edition.
22:24:22  <fjb> A 747 would not like a commuter airport, would it?
22:24:59  <peter1138> Nope.
22:25:20  <nappe1> fjb: maybe the landing would not be the problem, but the take off... lol, only way it takes off from there is in the pieces inside of trucks. ;)
22:26:08  <fjb> Hm, yes, I should consider buying some more trucks.
22:26:51  <fjb> The commuter airport would have made a nice spare airport for upgrading the main airport.
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22:29:54  <fjb> http://www.imgwelt.de/uploads/N51N5L56GMC.png
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22:30:14  <peter1138> Innercity airports
22:30:43  <fjb> Yeah, may people would have a nice view to the crash.
22:30:44  *** cybergirl [~cybergirl@ANantes-257-1-135-233.w90-32.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit []
22:31:40  <fjb> Cargo destinations makes linking the airports possible.
22:32:36  <peter1138> Damn it.
22:32:42  <peter1138> 0.7 will rock...
22:33:20  <fjb> Yeah!
22:33:34  <fjb> 0.7 also did compared to 0.5.
22:33:40  <fjb> 0.6
22:34:04  *** reldred is now known as reldred|work
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22:34:46  <fjb> I'm having 3 linked airports in this town: http://www.imgwelt.de/uploads/9117Q21B0H8.png
22:36:12  <Brianetta> Who is  PhilSophus?
22:36:25  <Brianetta> Who just pops up out of nowhere and hands us timetables?
22:37:13  <FauxFaux_> It's a cunning plan.
22:38:10  <Brianetta> He's a hero
22:38:27  <Brianetta> peter1138 can attest that I've been whining about timetables for ages
22:39:16  <nappe1> Brianetta: yes, this is like Talent for coders. real geniouses will be found whenever they post a first patch. I recon this happening before as well.
22:39:48  <Brianetta> nappe1: The first YAPP submission was like this.
22:40:10  <Brianetta> "Here's a new PBS patch.  Please look at it.  Why are you all swooning?"
22:40:14  <peter1138> > sleep
22:40:15  <nappe1> Brianetta: :D
22:40:25  <nappe1> peter1138: have a good one.
22:40:27  <Brianetta> n8 peter1138
22:40:46  <Pikka> him too
22:41:32  <nappe1> Pikka: I was thinking peter when mentioned this happening before... :) I remembere noticing him becoming core team member quite quickly.
22:42:31  <Brianetta> Pikka's an OpenTTD deity, too.  Stolen from Patch like the Romans stole all the Greek gods.
22:43:29  <nappe1> luckily I have my half assed daytime work, so no need to try to be more than the-lucky-guy who hits himself in bugs sometimes and does some small patch work occasionally.
22:43:51  <Pikka> lies, Brianetta
22:44:16  <Brianetta> Pikka: I ran my server without any of your newgrfs the other night.  It was shit, and everybody said so.
22:44:27  <Pikka> :O
22:44:30  *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred|work
22:44:37  <Pikka> speaking of which...
22:44:47  <Pikka> it is currently 8:44am
22:44:55  <Brianetta> In Pikkaland
22:45:02  <Brianetta> Time for work?
22:45:12  <Pikka> and the *plan* is to have NARS2pb1 released today >_>
22:45:18  <reldred|work> :D
22:45:24  <nappe1> IMHO, the life between patch and openttd has been okayish... it could have been a lot worse. patch had it's time and it was all that started keeping alive game this old.
22:45:59  <Brianetta> Quite aside from the work required to run Patch on my OS, I don't think I could handle the low res
22:46:01  <nappe1> Pikka: that sounds excelent... but one more question, which time zone is "today" in your sentence? :)
22:46:19  <Pikka> today for me.  that's why I told you the time. :)
22:46:39  <Brianetta> Pikka: Tip: If you say "today" in quarter of an hour, then use Owen's time zone, you get 24 hours
22:47:07  <Pikka> well, indeed!  Friday, then. :P
22:47:28  <reldred|work> nappe1: It's not a matter of 'had it's time'. The two projects will always be around. It's not like the ttpdatch developers are buting heads with the openttd devs or vice versa, it's 'my toy is bigger than your toy' idiot users causing the trouble.
22:49:33  <nappe1> reldred|work: certainly so. I used to be quite active in Need For Speed modding community from 1998 to 2006... there again EA drove the community a part by changing target group of the games in avery single release. this caused the community to be divided and quite religious stupid battles occured.
22:51:35  *** thvdburgt [~thomas@vdburgt.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:51:41  <nappe1> reldred|work: and yes, it is a bit sad to see how much patch has slowed down since patchman left. I use to play both, but when I started my work at job, my time got limited and as openttd has good network support, patch sort of faded away for me. But the good point is the compliancy in GRFs and stuff.
22:53:07  <Rubidium> neither OTTD nor TTDP support the complete NewGRF specs as the specs specify
22:54:13  <nappe1> Rubidium: yes, but still the support is very good I think, as both projects are done by hobbyists. not by paid coders.
22:54:26  <Ammler> 400 RVs replaced without desync...
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22:55:35  <nappe1> Rubidium: as if we think how well for example Microsoft implements some standards... oh well... anyone working with their xml libs knows what I mean. ;)
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22:57:55  <Rubidium> what Microsoft implements is always regarded as the leading standard (even when nobody knows the specs)
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23:17:56  <glx> DirectX headers contain some nice gcc incompatibilities (dunno if they are intended or just bad coding ;) )
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23:20:24  <glx> http://paste.openttd.org/68326 <-- just an example
23:21:12  <glx> (the second #if block is indeed unneeded)
23:21:52  <nappe1> hmmh... I must be having some patches conflicting... as I get an assert from oldpool.h from line 125 when second month from start ends. any of the used patches do not modify that file but infra sharing does include it at least once...
23:22:37  <Rubidium> something is trying to read out of the boundaries of one of the pools
23:22:50  <glx> no need to change anything in this file ;)
23:23:39  <glx> but you need the call stack to know who called it with wrong params
23:23:40  <nappe1> Rubidium: that helps a bit already... maybe daylenght and infra sharing do not like each other? some indexes go out of bounds due longer months perhaps...
23:24:35  <nappe1> let's see if I can reproduce it in debug build...
23:27:03  <Ammler> possible to change snowline on a running game
23:27:22  <glx> Ammler: grfs can do that
23:27:33  <glx> at least alpine does
23:27:56  <Ammler> so I should load the grf...
23:28:06  <Ammler> hope that does also for running game...
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23:29:20  <glx> you can't change the snow line by hand
23:34:47  <nappe1> mmmkay... got the Call Stack displayed... it's the first newspaper crashing the game
23:34:59  <Ammler> fix snowline doesn't work with GRFs, is that known?
23:35:15  <Ammler> (as you can set that with start settings, I assume)
23:35:44  <Ammler> but it works, if I enable changing snowline...
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23:36:41  <nappe1> lol
23:37:03  <nappe1> something is very wrong with message windows and news stuff on my build... :D
23:39:05  <nappe1> as I ignored the asserts and got message window, with right hand upper corner of the map displayed AND newspaper headline "Headson Coalmine Increasing 15%" on top of the message window...
23:40:21  <glx> asserts are there for good reasons
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23:41:25  <nappe1> glx: yeah, but I am trying to solve why using three patches that are each working fine, causes used in same build this kind of mess...
23:43:24  <Ammler> strange, if I load the game from the server (old style roads)
23:43:31  <Ammler> it changes to new roads
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23:44:51  <glx> ttrs3 ?
23:45:11  <Ammler> glx: US Roads
23:45:26  <glx> should be the same mechanism
23:45:31  <Ammler> I also have now every tram available
23:45:47  <glx> action A with action 7 checking current date
23:45:49  <Ammler> is that because of reset vehicels?
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23:46:35  <glx> pre r14182 I think
23:47:28  <Ammler> really, :-)
23:47:56  <Ammler> oh, current nightly is only 880
23:47:58  <Ammler> 80
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23:48:58  * Ammler is compiling trunk
23:50:12  <Ammler> same effect with trunk
23:50:22  <Rubidium> static newgrfs?
23:50:28  <Ammler> no
23:50:32  <Ammler> well
23:50:35  <Ammler> let me check
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23:51:28  <Ammler> approved, no static grfs
23:51:37  <Ammler> hmm
23:51:44  <Ammler> check again, how it look on the server...
23:56:14  <Ammler> our server runs since -3 years
23:57:19  <Rubidium> cheating the date back...
23:57:37  <Rubidium> that might very well cause much trouble
23:57:43  <Ammler> hmm
23:57:54  <Ammler> no but we loaded a save
23:58:06  <Ammler> and in the cfg the startyear is 1950
23:58:19  <Ammler> I made the save from 1900
23:58:42  <Ammler> there are many other server with negative years

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