Log for #openttd on 26th September 2008:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:10  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:15:50  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:25:58  *** Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
00:32:48  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
00:33:09  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
00:35:45  *** Sacro|SSL [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
00:40:16  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:11:28  *** wgrant [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:17:01  *** TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:24:17  *** Dred_furst` [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:27:03  *** Jezral [~projectjj@] has joined #openttd
01:39:33  *** pazvlad [] has joined #openttd
01:40:21  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
01:41:08  *** pazvlad [] has quit []
01:52:01  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
01:56:45  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: bye]
02:15:43  *** TrueBrain [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:34:20  *** Sacro|SSL [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:02:27  *** elmex_ [] has joined #openttd
03:07:27  *** elmex [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:07:31  *** elmex_ is now known as elmex
03:18:25  *** grumbel [] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
03:24:40  *** wgrant [] has joined #openttd
03:59:46  *** roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
04:03:28  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
04:30:22  *** TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@] has joined #openttd
04:36:36  *** TrueBrain [] has joined #openttd
04:37:06  *** Jezral [~projectjj@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:41:26  *** Dr_Jekyll [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:15:00  *** pazvlad [] has joined #openttd
05:26:46  *** pazvlad [] has quit []
05:38:58  *** De_Ghosty [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:19:34  *** SpComb^ [] has joined #openttd
06:21:34  *** SpComb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:27:30  <peter1138> Silly george.
06:39:45  *** Aylomen [] has joined #openttd
06:43:23  <Forked> happy happy happy :D
06:44:39  <peter1138> Who is?
06:45:13  <Forked> I am
06:50:22  *** Wezz6400 [] has joined #openttd
06:52:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14401 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11724): Don't check articulated parts or rear multihead parts for callback 1D when moving a chain of wagons.
07:09:06  *** letto [~letto@] has joined #openttd
07:19:46  *** petererer [~petern@] has joined #openttd
07:20:00  <petererer> Hmz
07:24:30  *** Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggs-work
07:32:46  *** thingwath [] has quit [Quit: My jdem, my jdem, laminátorovi cviko rozbijem!]
07:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't imagine that this phrase is even pronounceable ;)
07:43:04  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
07:47:28  *** You're now known as SpComb
07:47:35  *** Gekz_ [~brendan@] has joined #openttd
07:47:51  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:50:18  *** Gekz [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:50:35  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
07:51:09  *** Gekz_ [~brendan@] has quit []
07:56:12  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
07:58:46  *** Gekz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:08:19  *** Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
08:10:50  *** nekx [] has joined #openttd
08:19:08  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
08:20:33  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
08:33:00  *** roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
08:41:28  *** Doorslammer [] has joined #openttd
08:45:41  *** nekx [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:47:39  <petererer> Hostname: lachesis - OS: Linux 2.6.26-1-686/i686 - CPU: 2 x Intel(R) Xeon(TM) (2399.425 MHz) - Processes: 61 - Uptime: 17h 26m - Load Average: 0.11 - Memory Usage: 69.32MB/3996.20MB (1.73%) - Disk Usage: 1.06GB/76.55GB (1.38%) - Network Traffic (eth0): 301.06MB In/98.95MB Out
08:47:45  <petererer> Hee, what a silly script.
08:47:49  <Gekz> lol.
08:53:22  *** dvo [] has joined #openttd
08:55:36  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
08:56:26  <petererer> Yes, it's irssi.
08:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i just found that out already ;)
08:59:21  <petererer> Which, of course, means I had to know exactly what that script was for ;)
08:59:38  <petererer> Hmm, let's see.
08:59:43  <peter1138> Hostname: svn - OS: Linux 2.6.18-6-686/i686 - CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 (1494.582 MHz) - Processes: 87 - Uptime: 2d 21h 1m - Load Average: 0.00 - Memory Usage: 285.54MB/504.76MB (56.57%) - Disk Usage: 9.46GB/14.32GB (66.03%) - Network Traffic (eth4): 70.72MB In/89.97MB Out
09:00:17  <petererer> And that is enough of that.
09:14:09  *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@] has joined #openttd
09:14:10  *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
09:14:15  <Celestar> \po
09:14:20  <Celestar> \o
09:14:49  *** Aylomen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:16:14  <Forked> good morning :)
09:41:38  <Celestar> *sneeeeeeze*
09:49:02  *** thingwath [] has joined #openttd
09:49:23  *** thingwath [] has left #openttd []
09:49:33  *** thingwath [] has joined #openttd
10:10:42  *** thingwath [] has quit [Quit: It's all over.]
10:31:44  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
10:36:50  *** Tekky [] has joined #openttd
10:38:31  <Tekky> 6 weeks ago, I started a poll concerning whether and how YAPP signals should be renamed. I have now started a runoff poll in the following forum thread:
10:43:04  *** Sono2 [~Sono2@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:50:14  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
11:04:17  <petererer> 35% vs 24% is not conclusive?
11:05:27  <helb_> Is it possible to delete all industries on map at once? (in scenario editor)
11:05:31  *** helb_ is now known as helb
11:08:28  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
11:13:17  *** TrogDoor [] has joined #openttd
11:14:18  *** Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
11:18:30  *** Doorslammer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:18:36  *** TrogDoor is now known as Doorslammer
11:19:32  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Quit: ecke]
11:25:57  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
11:39:37  <Celestar> petererer: <= how's that?
11:40:28  <petererer> Some compilers do not like foo::bar::baz
11:40:33  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@] has joined #openttd
11:41:43  <Celestar> I haven't managed to encouter one yet :P
11:41:53  <Celestar> maybe TrueBrain should test this diff on Morphos
11:42:03  *** sunkan [] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
11:42:15  <Yexo> Celestar: iirc gcc 2.95 gave problems with yapf code that did that
11:42:31  <Celestar> petererer: and, there is foo::bar::baz even before that diff, isn't there?
11:43:29  <petererer> I don't know :)
11:43:40  <Celestar> we can still put using namespace RoutingBase_t; somewhere (=
11:44:02  *** sunkan [] has joined #openttd
11:44:12  <Yexo> petererer == peter1138 ?
11:45:15  <Celestar> no. petererer != peter1138, but *petererer == *peter1138 :P
11:47:09  <Yexo> what is the current status of cargodest? does it need more testing or just codereview?
11:49:57  <Celestar> Yexo: tests have been very successful
11:50:06  <Yexo> good to hear that :)
11:50:09  <Celestar> so quite a bit of review needs to be done
11:50:23  * petererer clones the repo on to his new server.
11:51:04  <Celestar> :D
11:51:06  <jpm> Yeah, It would be very nice to have cargodest in trunk soon...
11:51:25  <Celestar> In December, I'll possibly work on cargodest v2 ;)
11:54:56  <SmatZ> cargodest v2?
11:55:58  <Rubidium> SmatZ: yeah, something needs to be rewritten a few times before it can go in trunk
11:57:00  <SmatZ> :-)
11:57:19  <SmatZ> now that's responsible attitude!
11:58:03  * SpComb had lots of desynchs with cargodest last time he played it
11:58:21  <SpComb> but it might have had something to do with using a savegame from an older version of it with a newer version
11:58:55  <Celestar> SpComb: when was that?
11:59:05  <SpComb> a fair while ago
11:59:08  <SpComb> several weeks
11:59:10  <Celestar> ah
12:01:54  <Celestar> I love this place:
12:01:54  <Celestar> :D
12:02:31  <Tefad> google maps not gooed enough for you?
12:02:43  <Celestar> nope
12:03:00  <Tefad> heh, is that a target store
12:03:46  <Celestar> Google Maps is outdated :D
12:04:46  <Celestar> 9L/27R is mostly missing :)
12:05:27  <Celestar> but it still is a messy layout, innit :P
12:09:09  <petererer> It's just an airport :p
12:09:51  <Celestar> yeah
12:10:03  <Celestar> one with 8 runways
12:10:44  <Brianetta> I counted 14
12:10:52  * Brianetta looks for the other strip
12:11:16  <Celestar> Brianetta: one is temporarily decomissioned, the other not yet commissioned (=
12:12:02  <Brianetta> er
12:12:07  <Brianetta> I see 7
12:12:16  <Brianetta> which is 14 of you count both directions
12:12:32  <Celestar> yeah, 18/36 is not easy to identify as an (ex-)runway
12:12:41  <Brianetta> Whereis it?
12:12:50  <Brianetta> or, which way is north?
12:13:16  *** Mortal [] has joined #openttd
12:13:32  <Celestar> north is where the new runway is (bottom right). When you follow the new taxiway (bottom center) of the new runway, this leads into what was 18/36
12:13:37  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:13:57  <Brianetta> shit yeah
12:13:57  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
12:14:01  <Brianetta> I totally missed that
12:14:08  <petererer> Right through the middle.
12:14:19  <Celestar> yeah, it's currently twy Whiskey-Tango
12:14:26  <Brianetta> It's nowhere near as long as it was
12:14:34  <Brianetta> somebody built a terminal on it
12:14:35  <Celestar> this will be closed, two others will be closed and three more will be built
12:15:27  <Celestar> because this is currently a Spaghetti-layout (=
12:16:23  <Brianetta> One of those runways could take the Shuttle
12:16:40  <Celestar> the big one is 13.000x200 ft
12:16:45  <fjb> Hm, what happened to the new airports branch? :-)
12:16:48  <Celestar> or almost 4000x60m
12:20:49  * petererer ponders popping out to get some lunch.
12:22:09  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
12:22:12  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
12:25:23  <Celestar> Q3A on nightmare is .. hard :P
12:26:15  *** Chrill [] has joined #openttd
12:26:27  <Chrill> somebody come play @ Brianetta's standard !! :O
12:26:36  <Brianetta> Somebody is.
12:26:37  <Brianetta> You.
12:28:41  <Chrill> yes, but i want someone to play with :P
12:28:53  <Chrill> multiplayer alone is so disencouraging :P
12:29:21  *** sexten [] has joined #openttd
12:30:40  <Brianetta> not to mention is pisses of the players who only get ten years with their companies
12:30:49  <sexten> you've probably heard this question before, but I couldn't find an answer to it. If you play in a network game as i.e. Player 7 and save the game. Then you later on want to load the game and play on as Player 7, but you can't because you're automatically set to Player 1. How do you get to play as Player 7?:)
12:31:07  <Brianetta> Ctrl-Alt-C
12:31:12  <Brianetta> opens the cheat window
12:31:17  <Brianetta> which lets you switch player
12:32:13  <sexten> heh, that command opened the control center of my graphic card:p
12:32:31  <Brianetta> How useful.
12:32:34  <Yexo> try ctrl+win+alt+c
12:32:49  <Brianetta> ctrl-lose-alt-c
12:32:58  <Yexo> :p
12:33:00  <hylje> ctrl/tie/alt/c
12:33:04  <sexten> there we go. thanks a lot Brianetta & Yexo:)
12:36:46  <Tekky> peterer: 35% is still quite far away from 50% :) Many people who voted for renaming YAPP "advanced signals" to something completely different may now want to vote for "PBS signals" or may want to vote to not change the name at all......
12:37:32  <Tekky> However, I do hope that "path signals" wins the poll :)
12:38:22  <sexten> one more n00b question. When playing a game and in the 50s, you get the "old style" signals when building train tracks, however if you hold the Ctrl button down while building you get the "modern" signals. Is there any way to make the modern signals default? Or is it automatic after a given year?
12:39:04  <Tekky> sexten: in the patch settings, you can set the year from when on to build modern signals. I set this to year 0 in order to always build them.
12:39:40  <sexten> I see, thanks again:) it's a little weird the modern signals is always available though
12:40:19  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
12:40:21  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
12:40:55  <Tekky> however, this only works with games with a year > 0. If you are playing a game in the Roman Empire with horse trains, then this won't work :) But this should not matter, as horse trains did not use signals, as far as I know :) And I think the Roman Empire didn't even have any horse trains, yet :)
12:41:23  <sexten> haha
12:41:38  <sexten> perhaps an idea for OpenTTD B.C.?
12:42:57  <Chrill> BC?
12:43:11  <Tekky> B.C. = Before Christ, which means a year number below 0.
12:43:21  <hylje> i'm all for a all-times-TTD
12:43:23  <Chrill> why'd openttd hit BC? :P
12:44:04  <hylje> carriages and ships in the ancient times, bigger carriages and bigger ships later
12:44:21  <SmatZ> slaves
12:44:28  <Celestar> Tekky: there is no year 0
12:44:32  <Tekky> yes, an Age of Empires style of transportation game, where you start in the stone age, that would be cool :)
12:44:33  <Celestar> Tekky: only 1 BC and 1AD
12:44:35  <Chrill> there are plans for openttd games running over 2500 years, starting BC and ending.. now?
12:44:42  <hylje> i'd start out from classical times
12:44:52  <hylje> because people and stuff didn't move about so much earlier
12:46:09  <Celestar> people didn't move much before the invention of railways ...
12:46:35  <hylje> there was trade in the classical times and onward
12:47:58  <Tekky> actually, it may be quite a nice idea for a game, that you are in charge of doing all the transport for a whole Civilization. If you don't take care of transporting any goods, the Civilization will not be able to expand and will die of hunger :)
12:48:40  <hylje> maybe stuff would work regardless of the transport manager
12:48:42  <hylje> but just slow
12:48:52  <hylje> you'd set up trade and supply chains
12:49:24  <Tekky> in the stone age, you employ human haulers, later you emply humans with wooden carts, later you emply horse wagons, until you can finally build trains :)
12:49:40  <Tekky> emply = employ
12:50:15  <hylje> don't forget ships
12:50:22  <Celestar> Tekky: yeah, let's write a new game (=
12:50:31  <Tekky> hehe :)
12:50:33  <hylje> the game will work nearly as it is
12:50:41  <hylje> all that stuff above is largely newgrf
12:51:25  <Tekky> unfortunately, there is not much development going on anymore with Transport Empire......
12:53:18  *** Aylomen [] has joined #openttd
12:54:38  *** davis- [] has joined #openttd
12:54:47  <Tekky> In the next 5 years, OpenTTD will have to be largely rewritten anyway for use of multiple cores. Therefore, we can also think about new features to be added while doing the rewrite :)
12:55:11  <hylje> lifting of restrictions rather than features
12:55:14  <Chrill> Brianetta said my name in #tycoon half an hour ago, what'd he want? :P
12:55:17  <sexten> how big maps are you planning on playing/making that needs multi-cores?:)
12:55:21  <hylje> is what makes this thing possible
12:55:32  <davis-> hi
12:55:33  <FauxFaux> sexten: Why have a finite size map?
12:56:02  <Celestar> Tekky: there is no need to rewrite the whole game
12:56:47  <Tekky> Celestar: You are saying that implementing multiprocessor support does not require a major rewrite?
12:57:01  <Celestar> Tekky: depends
12:58:02  <Tekky> sexten: It is not so much the size of the map, but rather the number of vehicles and the complexity of the rail network.
13:03:20  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:03:59  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
13:04:40  *** Tim [] has joined #openttd
13:05:07  <Celestar> Tekky: the first question is what to multithread
13:05:31  <Celestar> one *might* be able to run the blitter in a separate thread, but I'm not sure.
13:05:38  <sexten> 1 core per train?:)
13:06:13  <Celestar> 1 core system, 1 core GUI, 1 core AI ...
13:06:27  <davis-> pancakes!
13:06:34  <Tekky> Celestar: In 10 years, I will be having 16 cores. Your suggestion may be useful for computers with two cores but not more.
13:06:57  <Rubidium> oh no... not again the "we must multicore" discussion...
13:07:19  <Celestar> Rubidium: it keeps popping up, doesn't it?
13:07:26  <ln> Tekky: 16 cores will be soooo little in 10 years.
13:07:27  <petererer> 13:30 < Brianetta> not to mention is pisses of the players who only get ten years with their companies
13:07:35  <petererer> You could always set min_players to 2, or somesuch.
13:07:42  <Brianetta> I could
13:07:49  <Celestar> Rubidium: <= is this about what you had in mind (first step)
13:08:02  <Chrill> Brianetta Brianetta Brianetta
13:08:09  <Brianetta> Chrill Chrill Chrill
13:08:15  <Chrill> you wanted me in #tycoon earlier? :P
13:08:28  <Chrill> also, have you had time to check my scenario?
13:08:29  <Brianetta> I *greeted* you on #tycoon earlier.
13:08:43  <Brianetta> The scenario's still in my inbox
13:09:05  <Chrill> kk
13:09:08  <davis-> :]
13:09:19  <Rubidium> Celestar: yes, that's what I had in mind
13:09:41  <Celestar> Rubidium: ok then (=
13:10:02  <Celestar> TrueBrain: <= please test this diff against cargodest on morphos and tell me if gcc is happy with it (=
13:10:56  <Tekky> if the entire game is made so that everything is processed by 16 cores, then the state of the map array is not allowed to change within the same tick, otherwise race conditions will be introduced. Therefore, all changes to the map array within the same tick will have to be recorded seperately and applied at the end of the tick. This would require a major rewrite.
13:10:57  <Rubidium> a::b::c fails on gcc-too-old-but-morphos-developers-have-not-bothered-about-using-one-that-actually-works
13:11:16  *** Zeal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:11:29  <Celestar> Rubidium: a::b::c was in the code before that diff and it did work on Morphos
13:12:40  <Celestar> Tekky: er .. assuming the state of one tile doesn't affect the state of another tile, it's easy.
13:12:48  <Rubidium> the current CF doesn't compile for morphos, so it hasn't been tested for weeks
13:13:31  <Rubidium> Tekky: please prove that your system is faster than just not doing the stuff on multiple cores
13:13:36  *** Aylomen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:13:54  <petererer> And it wouldn't work anyway.
13:13:58  <Rubidium> as your are going to waste enormous amounts of CPU in mutexes/semaphores and other thread scheduling stuff
13:14:00  <glx> Celestar: maybe ask SmatZ to test it win gcc 2.95
13:14:06  <glx> *with
13:14:08  <Celestar> SmatZ: ping (=
13:15:08  <Celestar> Tekky: the thing is, in a large game, the stuff handling the tiles doesn't eat a lot of CPU
13:15:08  <peter1138> Ah, cargodest compiled :D
13:15:14  <Celestar> peter1138: (=
13:15:19  <peter1138> Helped to install boost ;)
13:16:05  <peter1138> Ah, yes, my hg does not support hg branch... Pompiedom
13:16:16  <peter1138> Sever version: h1b7af927-Merc
13:16:40  <Celestar> *burp*
13:17:10  <SmatZ> Celestar: hello
13:17:59  * SmatZ installs boost on his gcc2.95 chroot...
13:18:19  <Celestar> SmatZ: <= please test this diff against cargodest on gcc 2.95.3
13:18:44  <Celestar> Tekky: you will never have "the entire game made so that everything is processed by 16 cores"
13:18:45  <Tekky> Rubidium: I agree with your concerns that this wouldn't be very beneficial with only two cores, because the amount of overhead produced make the code a lot more complex, and not necessarily faster. However, the trend in the CPU market is clearly going towards multi-cores rather than faster cores, so sooner or later, OpenTTD will have to offer support for multiple cores.
13:18:46  *** [com]buster [] has joined #openttd
13:19:07  <Celestar> Tekky: there are always things that are inherently serial
13:19:30  *** De_Ghosty [] has joined #openttd
13:19:54  <Celestar> hence n cores will never offer the same benefit as a core that is n times faster (see Amdahl's law)
13:20:21  <glx> and OpenTTD is not easy to split in multiple threads
13:20:34  <Celestar> btw: in about 5 years time, we might have reverse Hyperthreading or kernel-based multithreading so that "programming for multiple cores" might be obsolete.
13:20:35  <glx> as everything is interdependant
13:21:39  *** Rexxars [~rexxars@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:26:01  *** Aylomen [] has joined #openttd
13:26:18  <Tekky> Celestar: Well, let's take pathfinding, for example. In most cases, it is sufficient that a train's pathfinder uses the map array as it was at the start of the tick and 16 cores could then independantly of each other calculate paths for all trains. Then, at the end of the tick, all thread's changes to the map array are commited to the map array and checked for conflicts. Only the rare cases...
13:26:19  <Tekky> ...where a conflict arises would have to be resolved in a serial manner.
13:27:51  *** Rexxars [~rexxars@] has joined #openttd
13:28:01  <petererer> Pathfinding depends on other vehicle movements.
13:28:04  <Celestar> Tekky: the correct way to do this is to First handle all the map stuff and run the loops, and after this is finished, run the vehicle stuff.
13:28:13  <Celestar> the problem is vehicle-vehicle depedence
13:28:34  <Celestar> however, aircraft and ships do not depend on other vehicles, so they could be offloaded (=
13:28:53  <Tekky> I think I once read that most CPU usage of OpenTTD is caused by actually moving the trains every tick. Most of the train moves do not conflict with each other in the same tick, so 16 cores could move trains independantly of each other, as long as they check for conflicts afterwards, to prevent desyncs.
13:29:26  <petererer> Aircraft pathfinding is not such a huge bottleneck.
13:29:32  <Celestar> peter1138: not really (=
13:30:09  <Celestar> Tekky: have you ever looked at a profile of a typical game?
13:30:11  <petererer> Personally I think it's pointless to even bother with the discussion :)
13:30:27  <Celestar> peter1138: but we could put DrawCatenaryRailway into a separate thread. That one is slow :P
13:30:56  <petererer> Or make it more efficient.
13:31:10  <Tekky> Celestar: I read a forum thread where KUDr and other people were talking about the output of a profiler used on OpenTTD.
13:31:29  <Celestar> petererer: it's not that I haven't tried to :P
13:31:57  *** dvo [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:32:10  <Celestar> Tekky: do you experience performance problems anywhere?
13:32:18  <Brianetta> I think aircraft paths should have random turns in them.  So, instead of flying floor(dX-dY),floor(dY-dX) then min(dX),min(dY) they'd take any pseudo-random path of the same length.
13:33:25  <Celestar> Brianetta: yeah because aircraft tend to zig-zag around IRL? :P
13:33:46  <Brianetta> Celestar: They bloody should (:
13:33:49  <petererer> I'd like 'smooth' cornering ;)
13:33:55  <Celestar> Brianetta: why?
13:34:04  <petererer> Especially when reaching an airport...
13:34:13  <Celestar> petererer: yeah, but then we need more sprites (=
13:34:14  <petererer> Those 270 degree turns are silly.
13:34:22  <petererer> Not that smooth :p
13:34:33  <Celestar> petererer: I've already smoothend out the city airport, haven't I?
13:35:31  <Tekky> Celestar: yes, I have had serious performance problems with YAPP. A stopped train waiting in front of a red YAPP signal used to check once every tick for a new path, which caused big problems on networks with many waiting trains. Now, it only checks every 40 ticks for a new path, which is a significant improvement, but this performance issue is still there.....
13:36:39  <Celestar> Tekky: then the correct way to solve the problem is to use a better algorithm, not to throw more cores at the problem?
13:37:52  <Brianetta> Celestar: To make flights more fun
13:38:10  <Celestar> Brianetta: I know enough people who turn green on a straight-and-level flight.
13:38:18  <Tekky> Celestar: Yes, I agree with you that this could be implemented better. Instead of using a polling algorith, callbacks could be used when a path becomes free.
13:38:31  <Celestar> heh I've seen people turn green in a tilting ICE (=
13:38:46  <Celestar> only last week that was
13:38:48  <Brianetta> Bah
13:39:32  <Celestar> Leipzig-Nuremburg is a very curvy route, we had 20 minutes of delay so the driver was in a hurry and the train tilts 8° in each direction
13:39:39  <Brianetta> Stupid tilting trains should perfectly cancel all lateral forces
13:39:53  <Brianetta> This weak-minded fools who think this makes them sick should walk.
13:39:59  *** Rexxars [~rexxars@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:40:10  <Celestar> Brianetta: nope. High-Speed Tracks should be built so that they cancel all lateral forces.
13:40:29  <Brianetta> Celestar: Only if they can do it regardless of the train's speed.
13:40:34  <glx> vertical tracks in curves ?
13:40:40  <Celestar> Brianetta: no, at the rated speed of the track
13:40:52  <Celestar> Brianetta: afaik, the ICE-T has basically two operating modes. One that that cancels out lateral forces, one that permits maximum curve speed.
13:41:03  <Brianetta> Celestar: That's not flexible enough.  I want my coffee *never* to tilt.
13:41:16  <Celestar> Brianetta: use a plane (=
13:41:21  <Brianetta> Planes are worse.
13:41:28  <Celestar> only in bad weather
13:41:32  <Brianetta> Train is the smoothest means of transport I know
13:41:33  <Celestar> (=
13:41:35  <Brianetta> and unfortunately
13:41:42  <Celestar> that depends on the train and the track I must say
13:41:48  <Brianetta> I also know that they deliberately don't cancel all lateral forces with tilt
13:42:01  <Brianetta> because some journalists were pissed on the APT
13:42:05  <Celestar> The Frankfurt-Cologne track feels like a roller-coaster at 300km/h.
13:42:26  <Brianetta> and thought that they felt sick
13:42:32  <Celestar> not so much the curves, but the 4% slopes ...
13:42:50  <Brianetta> In fact, they should just go and invent artificial gravity, and use that
13:42:58  <Brianetta> then they can throw the vehicle all over the place
13:43:16  <Brianetta> or even do corkscrew roll bridges
13:43:26  <Brianetta> and vertical sections
13:43:43  <Brianetta> all without spilling any of my precious coffee
13:43:50  <Brianetta> which, being train coffee, cost a fortune
13:44:40  <Celestar> Brianetta: btw: titling can cancle out lateral forces, but liquid is liquid, especially when it is inside your vestibular system and tells you that you about angular acceleration.
13:45:18  *** Zealotus [] has joined #openttd
13:46:08  *** Rexxars [~rexxars@] has joined #openttd
13:46:11  <Celestar> Brianetta: and since the train, or the carriage, has a non-infinitisimal length, you will feel some angular accelaration in curves, even if you build them as clothoid.
13:46:29  <Brianetta> bah.  barely perceptible.
13:46:41  <Brianetta> In any case, they should just optimise it for my seat.
13:46:51  <Brianetta> Or go with AG.
13:47:40  <Celestar> Brianetta: just use a blood lid for you bloody coffee :P
13:47:53  <Celestar> bloddy lid even
13:47:58  <Celestar> bloody :P
13:47:59  <Brianetta> oh
13:48:02  <Brianetta> never thought of that
13:48:04  <Brianetta> that might work
13:48:10  <Brianetta> but it's nowhere near as cool
13:48:19  <Celestar> KISS
13:48:38  <Brianetta> Keep It Stupid, Stupid
13:48:45  <Celestar> :P
13:53:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> Tekky: do you experience performance problems anywhere? <- yes, whenever i play an ECS game
13:53:33  *** DjViper [] has joined #openttd
13:53:41  <DjViper> hey
13:54:03  <Tekky> ECS games cause performance problems? Is this due to the logic of the finite state machine used by NewGRFs?
13:54:07  *** thingwath [] has joined #openttd
13:54:08  <De_Ghosty> aren't those for inertial dampeners?
13:54:29  <De_Ghosty> you don't get a force when acceleration
13:54:46  <De_Ghosty> i mean you only*
13:55:06  <DjViper> cargodest... how stable is that now?
13:56:01  <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> Brianetta: nope. High-Speed Tracks should be built so that they cancel all lateral forces. <- only Leipzig-NÃŒrnberg is not a high speed track :p
13:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Tekky: afaik the most used function was "resolveSpriteGroup"
13:56:49  <Tekky> DjViper: I haven't noticed any bugs in cargodest, recently.
13:57:11  *** lobster_MB [] has joined #openttd
13:57:24  <DjViper> Tekky: can it be installed on the win build?
13:57:27  <DjViper> and, how?
13:57:50  <glx> DjViper: you can get it on
13:58:13  *** lobster_MB [] has quit []
13:58:49  <glx> it's like a nightly
13:58:49  <DjViper> that's ottd+cargodest?
13:58:51  <DjViper> rolled?
13:59:07  *** penfold [] has joined #openttd
13:59:14  <glx> cargodest is not a patch, it's a "branch"
13:59:23  <DjViper> ah okay
14:00:31  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: no, it's a very low speed track
14:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's still the same route that they built 150 years ago ;)
14:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and the geographic preconditions were not good for straight level track back then either ;)
14:02:05  <Rubidium> glx: next time it's better to show them (as that's easier and more useful for most people)
14:02:24  *** dvo [] has joined #openttd
14:02:33  <glx> Rubidium: I don't know all pages ;)
14:02:41  *** lobster_MB [] has joined #openttd
14:04:36  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: well .. but we finally need new ones. Munich-Berlin in 3 hours or so
14:05:26  *** stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
14:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik that's one of the pre-war track records that is still not broken ;)
14:07:13  <Kloopy> Celestar: What revision is cargodest based on atm?
14:08:04  <glx> Kloopy: r14361 is the latest merge
14:08:08  *** thingwath [] has quit [Quit: It's all over.]
14:08:13  <Kloopy> Thanks glx.
14:08:45  <Celestar> yeah
14:09:12  <Celestar> I'm off
14:09:22  <Celestar> SmatZ: did it work?
14:12:32  *** fonso [] has joined #openttd
14:12:45  <fonso> hi
14:13:19  *** thingwath [] has joined #openttd
14:13:25  *** helb_ [~helb@] has joined #openttd
14:14:15  <fonso> is there an official opinion about diagonal leveling and demolishing?
14:14:33  *** helb_ [~helb@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> as official as any other opinion...
14:14:45  *** helb_ [~helb@] has joined #openttd
14:14:50  <fonso> I'd still like to see it in trunk and if I knew what you think is missing, I'd fix it
14:14:54  <Brianetta> It's commonly regarded as not possible.
14:15:02  <fonso> I have an implementation
14:15:15  <Brianetta> in which case, it might become possible.
14:15:21  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:15:56  <fonso>
14:16:16  <fonso> Actually that's 3, as there was some argument on how it should be done
14:16:49  *** mortal` [] has joined #openttd
14:17:28  *** Doorslammer [] has quit []
14:17:30  <fonso> They all work fine and I'd prefer the java style iterators, but the c++ style iterators or the macros would also be OK for me.
14:20:08  <fonso> peter1138 - you were the last to comment on the diagonal levelling and demolishing patch(es). Is there anything I can do to get any of them into trunk?
14:20:41  <Brianetta> If you want it into trunk, you need ot talk to the maintainers.
14:20:49  <fonso> I just tries
14:21:02  <Brianetta> Since they're here, but not talking, I'd suggest asking later.
14:21:04  <fonso> s/tries/tried/
14:21:14  <fonso> as always
14:21:21  *** Tim [] has quit [Quit: Trillian (]
14:21:31  <Brianetta> Alternatively, you could try doing something with FlySpray
14:21:55  <fonso> oh, right - I forgot about that.
14:23:11  *** Mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:23:36  *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:31:23  *** De_Ghosty [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:36:08  *** Xerres [] has joined #openttd
14:40:23  <fonso> here you are:
14:41:08  <Brianetta> I'm sure some people will find it very useful.
14:41:31  *** ben_goodger_ is now known as ben_goodger
14:41:32  <fonso> yes, and they have already expressed that a month ago
14:51:53  <glx> fonso: thanks for the translation for FS#2319 :)
14:52:19  <fonso> no problem, any more french (or german for that matter) around?
14:52:47  <glx> but it was not really needed ;)
14:59:01  *** De_Ghosty [] has joined #openttd
14:59:10  *** DJNekkid [] has joined #openttd
15:00:37  <DJNekkid> is there any way to run openttd in a som kind of debug way? i got a crash ...
15:00:47  <DJNekkid> reproduceable as well
15:00:49  <DJNekkid> :)
15:01:08  <fonso> I'd suggest a debugger, like gdb
15:01:36  <DJNekkid> that works in windows?
15:02:01  <fonso> Microsoft offers a debugger as part of visual studio
15:02:08  <fonso> but I don't know what it's called
15:02:13  <fonso> or you can use mingw
15:02:31  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:02:46  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
15:03:02  <DJNekkid> well, it's on a precompiled binary ...
15:03:08  <fonso> oh
15:03:19  <fonso> you'll have to recompile with debug signals
15:03:30  <Rubidium> DJNekkid: precompiled by who?
15:03:49  *** Wezz6400 [] has joined #openttd
15:04:16  <DJNekkid> celestar i guess ... it's in the cargodest branch
15:04:25  <DJNekkid> not sure if it's related to that tho
15:05:05  *** Dr_Jekyll [] has joined #openttd
15:05:07  <DJNekkid> i got a sign, and when i edit it, remove all letters, and press enter it crashes
15:05:25  <Rubidium> oh.. that's fixed in trunk already
15:05:34  <DJNekkid> oki... :)
15:05:57  <DJNekkid> so it's an "old" bug :)
15:06:11  <Yexo> <- fixed 3 days ago
15:06:54  *** grumbel [] has joined #openttd
15:06:59  <DJNekkid> thats why i ask here before i post anything there :)
15:07:00  <petererer> Hmm, that hg log command in seems to take a while.
15:07:09  <petererer> cargodest.hg$ time hg log -r 1b7af927:0 -k "svn" -l 1 --template "{desc}\n" "src"
15:07:13  <petererer> real    0m7.794s
15:07:14  <petererer> :o
15:07:42  *** lobster_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
15:09:41  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
15:09:41  *** welshdragon [] has joined #openttd
15:09:47  <welshdragon> afternoon all
15:12:28  <welshdragon> how do i build openttd onto a usb flashdrive?
15:12:53  <davis-> :i
15:13:04  <petererer> You copy it onto the drive.
15:13:12  <petererer> That is all.
15:13:33  <welshdragon> aah, that's cool
15:14:01  <welshdragon> luckily it's a 4gb drive, so it can fit ratker a lot in
15:17:19  *** thvdburgt [] has joined #openttd
15:17:42  <Belugas> i think building on a flash would take eons to complete
15:19:22  <welshdragon> Belugas: i weill tell you how long it took
15:20:07  <welshdragon> i might also try to snaffle some free pen drives from somewhere, put openttd on them and thn send them to people
15:20:10  <thvdburgt> Just a random thought of mine: Isn't it silly the {road/rail/tram}set is included in the bridge sprites? Now the opengfx is comming along nicely isn't it time to seperate split them? This would make life easier for artists.
15:22:01  <thvdburgt> Because there are not anymore colors in the 8bit pallet (are there?)  A second sprite showing the location of the road on the bridge could be used. When this sprite is not available you can fall back to the old behaviour.
15:22:54  <Eddi|zuHause> <- read this
15:26:15  <thvdburgt> I don't see how that is relevant, isn't that just a way to assign labels to road which can be used to allow or disallow certain vehicles on it?
15:26:35  <Yexo> no, it also split the sprites
15:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it might be useful to read the Railtypes section also
15:28:40  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:31:05  <thvdburgt> ah
15:32:51  <petererer> Hmm, 15 degrees C... seems reasonable for a harddrive :)
15:33:54  <thvdburgt> "Track overlays for junctions and PBS" What are the slope pieces used for?
15:33:54  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i have some °C spare. would you take them? :p
15:34:04  <welshdragon> hmm, installed openttd, but it needs the files from transport tycoon deluxe cd to run
15:34:15  <welshdragon> and i don't have those
15:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> thvdburgt: uphill tracks?
15:35:08  <thvdburgt> Aren't the underlay sprites used for that, they should be drawn *with track*
15:36:39  <petererer> thvdburgt, PBS on slopes, basically.
15:37:48  <thvdburgt> how are these track different than normal tracks?
15:41:03  <Prof_Frink> welshdragon: 3407
15:42:59  <thvdburgt> Is there any documentation on how the bridge sprites will look like with the system?
15:43:03  <Brianetta> welshdragon: You can't play then.
15:43:40  <Belugas> thvdburgt, hopefully, there will be no difference
15:44:44  <thvdburgt> This would off course be better for backwards compatibly but how can you check which part of the bridge sprite to overlay with the road/rail/... ?
15:45:15  <Brianetta> thvdburgt: It's always the same
15:45:16  <Belugas> magic!
15:45:21  <thvdburgt> welshdragon, you can try this:
15:45:45  <thvdburgt> Brianetta, ?
15:46:48  <Brianetta> thvdburgt: The track.  It's always in the same place.
15:47:44  <thvdburgt> Do bridges have underlay and overlay sprites?
15:48:10  <Brianetta> Yes.  Otherwise vehicles wouldn't go through lattice girder bridges, etc
15:48:41  <thvdburgt> true, it is clear now :)
15:48:42  <Brianetta> It's the blitter's job to draw them properly.
15:50:32  <Brianetta> OK, I'm off home to pack my rucksack.
15:50:52  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: TschÌß]
15:52:40  <Prof_Frink> Rucksack, yes.
15:52:40  *** thvdburgt [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:52:40  *** Zahl [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:52:47  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
15:52:49  *** thvdburgt [] has joined #openttd
15:54:14  <petererer> Hmm?
16:11:04  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
16:11:05  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:26:54  *** seba [] has joined #openttd
16:27:24  <seba> anybody for a coop play?
16:27:25  <seba> :)
16:27:50  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
16:28:45  <Yexo> seba: try #openttdcoop
16:29:49  <seba> tnx
16:29:51  *** seba [] has left #openttd []
16:37:50  <petererer> You can play coop without them...
16:37:59  <petererer> They don't have a monopoly on it :)
16:38:12  *** letto [~letto@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:40:59  <Belugas> wow... a fund_town patch that does not involve copying lots of code...
16:41:39  <Belugas> just don[t know how good the code is, from a quick glance, but it sure feels  cleaner than the previous approach
16:42:24  <Belugas>
16:42:27  * Rubidium fears a desync (without looking at the patch)
16:42:33  <Belugas> forgot the link :)
16:42:49  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
16:43:08  <Belugas> could be, Rubidium, i've not made a good and deep reading
16:43:18  <Rubidium> yes, it desyncs
16:43:21  *** penfold [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:43:39  <Rubidium> CreateTownName is the "culprit"
16:43:46  *** Zippy [] has joined #openttd
16:47:28  <Belugas> so... one approach cold be to move it out of the command and put it as a condition to actually finalize the construction
16:47:48  <Belugas> or maybe force the user to enter a "valid" name
16:48:06  <Belugas> or even, why not, use the player's name to compose the town's name
16:48:09  <Belugas> dunno
16:48:11  <Belugas> just wild ideas
16:49:08  <Rubidium> Belugas: yup, but I've said that eons ago; the other patch "fixed" that desync issue by completely copying the CmdBuildTown function and move the CreateTownName out of one of them and this duplication was my only reason to be against the patch (and the author has been made aware of that by me)
16:50:14  *** lobster_MB [] has joined #openttd
16:51:17  <Belugas> can be easily fixed, i think
16:52:03  <Rubidium> it for sure could've been easily fixed
16:52:31  <Belugas> lack of will, bruised ego...who knows
16:53:02  <Belugas> actual p1 and p2 can be easily combined on only one param
16:53:18  <Belugas> so the other can be used to receive the name part already formed
16:55:13  <Belugas> mmh
16:55:19  <Belugas> time's up for me
17:00:02  *** lobster_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:02:28  *** Gekz [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03:21  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
17:03:32  *** lobster_MB [] has joined #openttd
17:04:37  *** lobster_MB [] has quit []
17:06:38  *** lobster_MB [] has joined #openttd
17:09:18  *** fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:16:42  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
17:27:36  *** Zippy is now known as penfold
17:28:51  *** Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
17:32:39  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
17:40:02  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... CivIV: Colonization comes with boost headers...
17:40:59  <fjb> :-)
17:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i must admit, CivIV is the most open proprietary game i have come across yet
17:45:34  *** helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
17:45:34  *** helb_ [~helb@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:45:38  <hylje> civiv uses boost for hooking python into it
17:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i know ;)
17:46:16  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... but it hangs on the intro videos...
17:47:14  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:48:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14402 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files):
17:48:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-26 17:45:50
17:48:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 3 fixed by Necrolyte (3)
17:48:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 fixed, 8 changed by josesun (9)
17:52:08  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
17:52:20  <Wolf01> hello
17:54:17  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... now it hangs on starting a game...
18:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> something is not right...
18:08:29  <Bjarni> are you trying it in wine or something?
18:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> where else would i be trying it?
18:09:36  <Bjarni> virtualbox, dualboot, another computer
18:10:17  *** lobstar_MB [] has joined #openttd
18:10:20  <Bjarni> do you know if it works in wine?
18:10:28  <Bjarni> I mean if other people managed to get it working
18:10:40  <ccfreak2k> One person did.
18:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> civ4+bts worked
18:10:51  <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: poke orudge
18:10:58  <Prof_Frink> He's off to wineconf.
18:10:58  <Bjarni> NO
18:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> colonization is only out since today ;)
18:11:22  <Bjarni> I'm not going to do whatever Prof_Frink fancies
18:11:35  <Bjarni> he might think I fancy him >_<
18:12:07  *** lobster_MB [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:12:19  *** Zorn [] has joined #openttd
18:12:24  <Bjarni>  <Eddi|zuHause> colonization is only out since today ;) <-- actually I started wondering "did it already get out? I didn't notice"
18:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause> none of the reports on appdb seem to match my problem
18:18:57  *** bleepy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:19:18  *** Zorni [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:19:20  *** bleepy [] has joined #openttd
18:20:17  *** welshdragon [] has quit [Quit: back later]
18:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the animations seem to be extremely slow
18:27:35  *** tvdburgt [] has joined #openttd
18:27:35  *** thvdburgt [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:32:36  *** Zahl_ [] has joined #openttd
18:33:33  *** Ben_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:39:05  *** De_Ghosty [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:39:37  *** De_Ghosty [] has joined #openttd
18:40:04  *** Zahl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:40:04  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
18:40:32  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:40:50  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
18:46:37  *** lobstar_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
18:51:39  <SmatZ> Celestar: I fail to compile cargodest trunk in gcc 2.95 ...
18:51:50  <SmatZ>  /usr/include/boost/iterator/iterator_adaptor.hpp:218:  (use -ftemplate-depth-NN to increase the maximum)
18:51:53  <SmatZ> hmm I will try it
18:52:14  *** Ben_ is now known as Sacro
18:52:39  <SmatZ> yeah, CFLAGS="-ftemplate-depth-99" compiles now :)
18:54:42  *** michi_cc [] has joined #openttd
18:54:45  *** mode/#openttd [+v michi_cc] by ChanServ
18:58:31  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Quit: ecke]
18:58:54  *** Zahl_ [] has joined #openttd
18:58:54  *** Zahl [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:58:55  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
18:58:59  <Kloopy> What's the maximum length of a bridge?
18:59:14  <Wolf01> 255
18:59:17  <Kloopy> Thanks
18:59:47  <frosch123> can be lower because of advanced settings or newgrf though
19:00:08  <Kloopy> ok
19:00:15  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
19:02:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14403 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14384): The condition was too restrictive.
19:04:06  <Rubidium> actually 100 is closer to the maximum than 255
19:04:51  <frosch123> "long enough" is even closer :)
19:11:00  *** mortal`` [] has joined #openttd
19:11:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14404 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#2176]: don't make the town flatten land unconditionally when build on slopes is turned on. Based on a patch by Eddi.
19:15:04  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
19:15:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yay!
19:17:23  *** mortal` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:26:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14405 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2289]: Correct handling of selling free wagons while the following vehicle is an engine (i.e. a new train is created).
19:27:23  <FauxFaux> Ooh, is it applying people's patches o'clock? You know you want to do some of mine. :)
19:28:08  <Rubidium> no, it's reduce bugcount o'clock
19:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't understand it... there's absolutely no reason why the animations should be that kind of slow... and bts shows the same effect now :(
19:28:23  <FauxFaux> I filed bugd with them in, so it's clearly the same thing!
19:42:12  <fonso> is a good address for reducing bug count
19:43:31  * petererer is busy playing on his cargodest server by himself :o
19:44:09  * Eddi|zuHause is busy updating wine
19:44:23  <Eddi|zuHause> although i don't think that will actually help
19:45:12  * Belugas is busy working
19:45:28  * fonso is bored
19:45:46  <Rubidium> go fix FS#119 ;)
19:46:46  <Alberth> Pointing people to #119 seems like a favorite hobby of yours, Rubidium
19:46:49  <Belugas> fs1793... such an IMPORTANT bug :S
19:47:07  <Belugas> because FS119  is a pain in the butt
19:47:20  <fonso> I'm bored, you know ... and I like to set my clock by those trains
19:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause> interesting, that actually DID help ;)
19:47:55  <Alberth> Belugas: I know, I read the description, and how hard you have been trying to find the problem
19:48:02  <Rubidium> Alberth: yeah, because it none of the devs really has a clue how to fix it
19:48:35  <Rubidium> and many people tried fixing FS#119
19:48:40  <Belugas> mmh... maybe we can launch a contest : whomever provides CLEAN and ADEQUATE fix will become a dev!
19:49:01  <petererer> Or gets a beer
19:49:20  <Belugas> (the add does not mention if it willbe a permanent situation)
19:49:26  <petererer> :D
19:49:26  <Belugas> but as for the beer...
19:49:33  <petererer> Permanent beer?
19:49:42  <Belugas> i think i'll get TONS of it tonight!
19:54:42  * Belugas reads back the proposal for the context and add "...ADEQUATE fix for >>>>FS119<<<<<..."
19:56:59  <petererer> s/ADEQUATE/PERFECT/
19:57:15  <petererer> Woo, I'm making money :D
19:57:57  <petererer> Though Pikka's build costs GRF is a bit odd, as it makes roads about 3 times the price of rail.
19:58:26  <petererer> Er, make that six.
19:58:42  <Rubidium> ofcourse... tarmac is made of something oil-ish and that price is going through the roof lately
20:01:30  *** penfold [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:05:32  <fonso> smatz, what do you mean with this comment: ? The image shown isn't impossible to render. Can you give me an example of an impossible situation?
20:07:23  <Rubidium> fonso:
20:09:37  <fonso> interesting ...
20:10:59  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
20:11:51  <frosch123> fonso: explains in detail what is happening
20:17:27  *** eQualizer [] has joined #openttd
20:18:17  *** Aylomen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:19:21  *** eQualizer|dada [~lauri@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:22:29  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
20:23:12  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20:24:00  *** Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
20:29:51  <fonso> does this problem also exist with the opengl blitter?
20:30:53  <fonso> As I get it, the sprite sorter can't consider all sprites on the map and so it may miss some that might be related to the ones being drawn, resulting in flickering and glitches.
20:30:58  <Rubidium> is anyone actually using that blitter?
20:31:02  <fonso> not me
20:31:08  <fonso> that's why I'm asking
20:31:26  <fonso> Opengl could do that without lots of manual sorting
20:32:26  *** elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:32:29  *** elmex [] has joined #openttd
20:36:24  *** tokai [] has quit [Quit: icebears... take care of them!]
20:37:11  *** TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
20:49:53  <sexten> anyone of you got a quick-link to the TTD-graphic files?:)
20:50:07  <Rubidium> d:\
20:50:16  *** mortal`` is now known as mortal
20:50:30  <Rubidium> or rather, to be more correct: file://d:/
20:51:56  <Rubidium> in other words: giving such links isn't allowed in this channel
20:53:16  <sexten> I'm sorry, I didn't know it wasn't allowed
20:53:49  <Rubidium> it's similar to asking for a download of Windows Vista
20:56:35  <glx> would be silly to want to download vista
20:56:59  <Tekky> hehe, yes, one should not compare TTD with Windows Vista :)
20:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i could tell you
20:57:29  <Belugas> I think the point is rather "Who wold want to download Vista"
20:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but then i'd have to shoot you
20:58:04  <Rubidium> Tekky: why? As TTD it's incompatible with it's predecessor and there are better alternatives
20:58:38  *** davis- [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:58:48  <Tekky> Rubidium: hmmm, ok, you've got a point, there :)
20:59:50  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... most interesting about colonization is the new method of getting founding fathers
21:00:45  <frosch123> [22:33] <fonso> Opengl could do that without lots of manual sorting <- opengl cannot help you at all, unless _you_ provide z values for all pixels of all ever released newgrfs of the past and the future
21:02:28  <fonso> I'm still digging through the source. So the actual problem is that there are no z values for the sprites but only "in front of" and "behind" relations?
21:02:49  <fonso> I don't quite get how it actually works yet ...
21:03:14  <frosch123> fonso: open your favorite save game and press ctrl-B to get a first impression of what bounding boxes are
21:04:16  <fonso> yes, that's about what I expected them to be
21:05:15  * Belugas goes home . good weekend
21:05:22  <Rubidium> have fun Belugas
21:05:22  <frosch123> so you have x, y, and z world coordinate, but x and y are not directly related to screen coordinates
21:05:38  <frosch123> night belugas
21:05:57  <Belugas> bye
21:05:59  * Belugas is gone
21:06:04  <fonso> yes
21:06:12  <fonso> z can alter that
21:06:17  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
21:06:20  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
21:06:43  <fonso> and planes on airports have a different bounding box than planes flying ...
21:07:13  <fonso> why is that?
21:07:32  <frosch123> and when you give them the the same big bounding box on floor they will glitch with the airport buildings and everything else next to the airport
21:08:18  <fonso> ah
21:08:50  <fonso> so there are parts of vehicles drawn outside their bounding boxes and we can't detect if that collides.
21:08:51  <fonso> OK
21:09:02  <fonso> but that's not all of the story, is it?
21:09:48  <frosch123> when you have read fs#2078 you should already know a lot
21:11:50  <fonso> I have, but I have only understood half of it.
21:12:28  <fonso> Somehow the bounding boxes can still get mixed up if you keep the drawing inside them
21:12:39  <fonso> And that's due to the sorting of the boxes
21:12:54  <fonso> But why the sorting fails I don't get
21:13:14  <frosch123> <- did you solve that exercise?
21:13:45  <fonso> of course it's impossible, but the errors we see are much more trivial.
21:14:35  <frosch123> <- the error you see is that one: the plane is red, the foundation is green, blue is missing
21:15:37  <fonso> so the problem is that the airport tarmac doesn't have a bounding box?
21:16:51  <frosch123> the problem is that that the aircraft sprite extents over foundations, which are not under the aircraft BB
21:21:17  <fonso> That's still the same story. The aircraft is partly drawn outside its BB. Whenever there is a different bounding box at those parts (the ground is always drawn first and without one, as I get it), we don't know it has to be drawn behind the aircraft. Is that correct now?
21:21:20  <frosch123> so either you have to modify the red or the green BB, or add a blue BB somewhere
21:21:42  <fonso> yes
21:21:59  *** DjViper [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:22:03  <fonso> make the aircraft larger, merge the foundations or define the runway
21:22:32  <frosch123> yes, you could add a transparent bounding box of height 0 which covers the whole airport
21:22:57  <frosch123> that might work for rectangular airports with flat surface
21:23:18  <frosch123> so if newgrf_ports will never become reality, it might work
21:23:28  *** bleepy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:23:47  *** bleepy [] has joined #openttd
21:23:55  <fonso> Yes, that's all not a real solution. I know
21:24:10  <fonso> but did I get all of the problem now?
21:24:44  <frosch123> seems so
21:24:50  <fonso> nice. thanks
21:25:05  <Rubidium> but that's only for airports, right?
21:25:23  <frosch123> every glitch needs its own fix :)
21:25:27  <Rubidium> true
21:25:43  <frosch123> btw. I have already fixed the glitches with inclined foundations in one of my working copies :)
21:26:18  <frosch123> just need to do a proper testing of its implications
21:26:33  <frosch123> but at least I found what I was doing wrong all the time :)
21:26:56  *** [com]buster [] has quit [Quit: Operator, give me an exit]
21:27:56  <fonso> how did you fix it?
21:30:24  *** Sacro|SSL [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
21:30:39  <frosch123> <- making the BB of inclinded foundations more like the tunnels are - just the other way around
21:31:22  <frosch123> maybe the same could be done for bridge ramps
21:32:06  *** penfold [] has joined #openttd
21:32:07  <frosch123> but bridges are very sensitive
21:32:57  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:35:12  *** Sacro|SSL is now known as Sacro
21:35:25  <frosch123> hmm, over 300 revisions old, what happened to time?
21:45:00  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
21:54:36  <fjb> An USB-Drive disguising as a CD-ROM... now that is new.
22:01:19  <Wolf01> 'night
22:01:33  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:01:50  <Bjarni> I once had a PCMCIA ethernet card that the computer identified as an unformatted disk (flash?)
22:01:57  *** fonso [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:02:11  <Bjarni> since it did that from the very start I got it replaced on warranty
22:02:59  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:04:11  <Bjarni> here is the best part: when I handed it in, they wanted the repairshop to fix it. Somehow I think when a computer sees such a small card as a disk instead of an I/O card, then it's unfixable
22:04:29  <Bjarni> the repairshop gave up more or less right away
22:05:34  <fjb> :-)
22:06:11  *** ben_goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:06:20  <fjb> This thing is strage. It's a SanDisk with U3 (heard about it today for the first time) functionallity.
22:06:36  <fjb> It comes with preinstalled Skype.
22:06:36  *** ben_goodger [] has joined #openttd
22:07:01  <Bjarni> I guess I did a pretty good deal because I bought it at almost half price because it was lightly used and they still provided full warranty like it was new. They didn't have any more used ones so they had to give me a brand new one
22:07:24  <fjb> Some kind of Sudoku, a trieal version of some McAffee product...
22:07:35  <Bjarni> this was in 1996... ethernet cards was expensive, specially with PCMCIA interface
22:07:46  <fjb> Sounds like a good deal.
22:08:31  <fjb> This USB- dirve also looks like a good deal. 2 2GB-Drives bundled for 10€.
22:09:01  <fjb> Sandisks lists them at about  each.
22:09:36  <Bjarni> USB flash disks?
22:09:48  <fjb> Yes.
22:10:17  <Bjarni> if that is the price today then I would consider leaving the MB era :)
22:10:19  <fjb> Downside is it has a big, slowly flashing LED.
22:10:35  <fjb> Oh, 2GB, sorry. :-)
22:10:52  <Bjarni> there is a 128 MB flash lying around here
22:11:28  <fjb> I'm having some 64MB things here.
22:11:50  *** helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
22:11:51  <fjb> Bought that 2 drives at the local store today.
22:12:01  <Bjarni> I once saw a 16 MB flash
22:12:10  <Bjarni> it was run over by a car on a parking lot
22:12:24  <Bjarni> made me wonder if it was on purpose :)
22:12:36  <fjb> I have a combined 32MB flash and 2 port USB hub.
22:12:54  <fjb> :-)
22:13:52  <Bjarni> hmm
22:13:53  <fjb> But why is the LED that big and bright and flashing?
22:14:07  <Bjarni> I can get a 2 GB flash for around 7€
22:14:19  <Bjarni> but I have no idea if A-Data is any good
22:14:28  <Bjarni> in fact I have never seen that name before
22:14:28  <frosch123> fjb: get some tape and mask it
22:14:36  <fjb> A-Data is cheap, but usually not that bad.
22:14:54  <fjb> frosch123: I will burry it in a wall...
22:15:29  <fjb> But 2GB Sandisk for 5€ can not be that bad.
22:15:41  <Bjarni> wow
22:15:52  <Bjarni> there is a Kingston here for 5€
22:15:55  <Bjarni> still 2 GB
22:15:57  <fjb> 2 x 2GB for 10€.
22:16:18  <fjb> Without shipping costs...
22:16:52  <Bjarni> lol
22:17:00  <Bjarni> shipping is the same as the memory stick :D
22:17:53  <fjb> They had plenty of them at the lowest part of the shelf. At eye hight they had 2GB drives for 18€ each.
22:17:59  <Bjarni> 15,8€ for the 8 GB version
22:18:15  <Bjarni> now why would somebody want 8 GB anyway :)
22:19:02  <frosch123> Bjarni: you do not have to know how to delete files
22:19:09  <fjb> Why would somebody not have 8GB? Better too much than the few.
22:19:53  <fjb> 8GB is not that much today.
22:20:06  <Bjarni> there is a 64 GB version too o_O
22:20:35  <Bjarni> when I bought mine, I decided on 128 MB because 256 was huge and really expensive
22:20:36  <fjb> Oh, I could carry my home directory on that one.
22:20:56  <Bjarni> 64 GB is enough for a complete system
22:21:30  <fjb> Even 8GB could carry a complete system.
22:22:18  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:22:27  <fjb> Hm, I could install the base system (without swap) on that 2GB drive.
22:23:59  <Bjarni> the 128 MB one is enough for a complete system
22:24:11  <Bjarni> I once had a complete system on a floppy
22:24:37  <SmatZ> [00:21:30] <fjb> Even 8GB could carry a complete system. <=== not Vista
22:24:48  <Bjarni> hehe
22:25:06  <Bjarni> I think 8 GB is enough for a full install of OSX 10.5
22:25:13  <SmatZ> :-)
22:25:17  <Bjarni> including all the optional apps
22:25:26  <fjb> SmatZ: Who talks about Vista? :-)
22:25:33  <Bjarni> but maybe excluding Xcode
22:25:47  <SmatZ> :-)
22:26:11  <Bjarni> I don't know... I haven't really experienced with getting OSX to be as small as possible
22:27:04  <Bjarni> <-- combine the 8 GB one with this device and you can get a working mac on a lot of public computers
22:27:48  <frosch123> Bjarni: You should revert to 360K 2S/DD disks. You can load them completly into 640K memory and copy them to another disk in one go :p
22:27:53  <Bjarni> I think it would violate the EULA though
22:28:37  <Nite_Owl> An old DOS system would most definitely fit on a floppy
22:29:03  <Nite_Owl> Provided you remember your DOS commands
22:29:19  <Bjarni> one of the smallest systems I have seen would be a floppy containing MacOS and virtual PC
22:29:46  <Bjarni> the MacOS was stripped of all unneeded stuff and virtual PC was used instead of finder
22:30:16  <Bjarni> this meant that the mac could emulate the x86 instruction set with no background tasks running
22:30:58  <frosch123> [00:30] <Nite_Owl> An old DOS system would most definitely fit on a floppy <- quite surprising for a _D_OS
22:31:56  <Bjarni> I was once asked how MacOS and OS2 were related
22:32:13  <Bjarni> somehow they had to be more or less the same... they both had OS in the name
22:32:41  <fjb> And they are operating systems for computers.
22:36:23  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:39:51  *** Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
22:41:30  *** davis- [] has joined #openttd
22:44:56  <Nite_Owl> Wait - quite surprising that it would or quite surprising that it would not
22:48:37  <frosch123> as surprising as a TOS fitting on a tape
22:53:56  <Nite_Owl> I ran DOS commands off of floppies all of the time. It may not have been the complete, robust system but it was a working system. Old boot disk did the same thing. They just enough of the OS to make your machine work and let you execute a limited number of commands.
22:54:27  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
22:55:15  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
22:56:06  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:56:13  <SmatZ> Celestar: compiles
22:56:41  <glx> SmatZ: as you may have noticed, he's not here ;)
22:59:52  <SmatZ> glx: yeah :) I hope someone will say I told him that :)
22:59:55  <SmatZ> or so...
23:00:05  <SmatZ> DorpsGek misses @tell functionality :(
23:00:30  <SmatZ> @tell Celestar compiles
23:00:30  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Error: I haven't seen Celestar, I'll let you do the telling.
23:00:35  <SmatZ> :-/
23:01:10  <glx> you can send him a mail
23:01:48  * petererer has a few 4MB flash cards...
23:04:05  <SmatZ> petererer: hard to say anything nice about that :( maybe... they will have a historical value soon :)
23:04:32  <SmatZ> like cameras storing photos on a 1,44 MB diskette
23:07:01  <Nite_Owl> I still have a working 100MB zip drive with several working disks
23:08:32  <petererer> SmatZ, they still have a use.
23:09:37  <SmatZ> petererer: makes me happy... I really don't like older hardware lying around unused :-/
23:10:15  <SmatZ> Nite_Owl: so do I :)
23:11:33  <SmatZ> but the prices of 100MB ZIP media were insane ... 20-30 Euro (or USD that time) ...
23:11:43  <SmatZ> though it was well before Euro :)
23:12:05  <SmatZ> maybe 15-20...
23:12:26  <petererer> I guess these cards cost a lot back in the day...
23:13:16  <Nite_Owl> REALLY - I here am thinking I am the last person on Earth still using them. There is a store near by that still sells the disks. They are expensive compared to CD's or DVD's.
23:13:47  <petererer> Do people even bother with CDRs these days?
23:14:42  <Nite_Owl> If you want to record music to play in the CD player in your car you do
23:15:21  <petererer> Modern systems seem to accept SD cards too.
23:15:55  <Nite_Owl> True but a lot of people still have older cars
23:16:18  <SmatZ> :-) it's always better not to buy anything, or you may be angered by how low prices are two years later...
23:16:43  <petererer> Nite_Owl, I'm just going to " ... " at that statement.
23:16:45  <petererer>  ...
23:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> . . .
23:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i wish i had an older car...
23:18:50  <Nite_Owl> My car is 8 years old and I have no plans to replace it anytime soon
23:19:39  <petererer> Car age has absolutely no bearing on the capabilities of the stereo that is installed.
23:19:58  <Brianetta> My car is negative many years old
23:20:02  <Brianetta> and can drive itself
23:20:17  <Brianetta> Since it doesn't exist yet, the performance of its stereo is... wanting.
23:20:48  <Nite_Owl> True - you can replace the stereo but if it sounds good and the media is still available why bother
23:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i have used a CDR exactly once
23:21:20  <Eddi|zuHause> to put a knoppix on it...
23:22:37  <Nite_Owl> Plus I have a huge collection of music CD's so the choice is an obvious one
23:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i have like two audio cds...
23:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't even know where they are...
23:25:36  <Nite_Owl> Just call me old fashioned. Heck I even have some cassette tapes and vinyl albums stashed away somewhere
23:26:31  <Nite_Owl> Dinner is served - L8r all
23:26:42  *** Nite_Owl [] has left #openttd []
23:27:53  *** mortal [] has quit [Quit: goodnight oftc]
23:27:56  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: TschÌß]
23:44:15  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:46:22  *** Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
23:47:27  <ln> buona sera, señoritas

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk