Log for #openttd on 29th November 2008:
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00:33:24  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:47:15  <Belugas> hu?? meush in in Canada? ?
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01:04:13  * rortom is not in Canada
01:05:07  * Eddi|zuHause is not either
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01:08:34  * benjamingoodger is 2130 miles away from canada
01:08:40  <benjamingoodger> ish
01:26:28  <Belugas> i'm in canada
01:26:35  <Belugas> i'm in my house
01:26:46  <Belugas> i'm on my chair
01:26:53  <benjamingoodger> we know, damn it
01:26:54  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
01:26:57  <Belugas> i'm back to tv time
01:28:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14641 /trunk/src/video/ (allegro_v.cpp sdl_v.cpp):
01:28:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Change [Allegro]: when making a debug build revert Allegro's hooks on SIGSEGV/SIGABRT so one can actually use gdb.
01:28:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Change: make it more clear that Allegro's failing to find a driver.
01:28:49  * rortom is in england :|
01:28:56  * benjamingoodger is in england also
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01:38:39  <Belugas> don't be sorry, being in England is not bad :)
01:39:39  <Belugas> it's not a tare ;)
01:40:24  <benjamingoodger> tare?
01:55:11  <Belugas> mmh
01:55:14  <Belugas> bad dico
01:55:39  <Belugas> defect
01:55:46  <Belugas> taint
01:55:49  <Belugas> blemish
01:56:04  <Belugas> defect might be closer
01:56:16  <benjamingoodger> better
01:56:39  <benjamingoodger> "tare" is a button you push on electric scales so that they are reset to zero
01:59:05  <rortom> the weather and the economic situation is quite bad in the UK atm :/
02:00:08  <benjamingoodger> really?!
02:00:10  <benjamingoodger> good lord
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02:00:59  <rortom> yeah, british humor ftw :|
02:01:33  <benjamingoodger> I was so busy tidying up my little under-rock living space here that I completely failed to notice the sub-zero temperatures, job losses, foreclosures, businesses going into administration, and liquidity crisis
02:04:09  <rortom> ;)
02:04:45  <rortom> im german, and it hit the UK harder i believe?
02:05:01  <rortom> thus im not into the UK economy so much ;)
02:06:09  <benjamingoodger> yes
02:06:23  <benjamingoodger> we're screwed, germany is comparatively OK
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02:13:37  <benjamingoodger> the problem being, the banks have been lending money to people who can't possibly pay it back
02:14:02  <benjamingoodger> some of them have recently realised that this is a bad idea
02:14:26  <benjamingoodger> so now most of them aren't lending money to anyone any more
02:15:04  <benjamingoodger> and this is generally viewed as a bad thing, because lending is the foundation of all business expansion, and also what keeps businesses running during recessions
02:15:55  <benjamingoodger> so businesses are closing down, banks are laying off tens of thousands of employees, people are becoming unemployed, spending less, more businesses fail, etc and we end up with a depression
02:17:38  <rortom> yeah
02:17:57  <rortom> quite down siral somehow
02:18:01  <rortom> *spiral
02:18:07  <benjamingoodger> german banks have not been lending nearly as much money to people who can't pay it back
02:18:16  <rortom> our company even cancelled christmas dinner :(
02:18:19  <benjamingoodger> french banks haven't been doing it very much at all, nor have spanish banks
02:18:40  <benjamingoodger> consequently france and spain are saying "recession? what recession?"
02:18:44  <benjamingoodger> as far as I can tell
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02:18:54  <rortom> good for them :)
02:19:07  <benjamingoodger> quite
02:19:30  <rortom> but u think the US is the worst atm?
02:19:52  <rortom> google even cancels projects / frees employees ...
02:19:55  <benjamingoodger> difficult to say which is worse, the US or the UK
02:20:08  <benjamingoodger> the US is going into a worse recession
02:20:52  <benjamingoodger> however, you must realise that the whole economy of the UK is basically banks
02:20:59  <rortom> the downfall of the british pound is not funny :(
02:21:04  <benjamingoodger> if you take away our banks, we don't do anything
02:21:10  <rortom> its somehoe 1.2
02:21:15  <rortom> to euro :\
02:21:24  <benjamingoodger> it was 1.11 earlier in the week...
02:21:27  <rortom> ouch
02:21:42  <rortom> i remember when it was like 1.5 or so :/
02:21:51  <benjamingoodger> I remember when it was 1.8
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02:21:57  <benjamingoodger> we don't build anything to speak of, we don't grow anything that we export to other countries
02:22:04  <Rubidium> it's 2 and has been for years!
02:22:41  <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: sterling is worth €1.18
02:22:54  <benjamingoodger> or .50-ish
02:22:59  <benjamingoodger> what has been 2 for years?
02:23:11  <Rubidium> not to forget that 1 dollar = 1 euro
02:23:40  <SmatZ> it was when Euro started...
02:23:42  <benjamingoodger> actually, the dollar is worth 78 eurocents
02:24:08  <SmatZ> then Euro went down
02:24:19  <SmatZ> but later dollar went even more down
02:24:31  <SmatZ> so now Euro is worth more than dollar
02:24:31  <benjamingoodger> yes
02:24:44  <benjamingoodger> actually, it is more appropriate to say that the euro went down, and then went up
02:24:53  <benjamingoodger> and then the dollar drove off a cliff
02:24:55  <SmatZ> not really
02:25:25  <benjamingoodger> Rubidium: what are you claiming is worth 2 of something else?
02:26:05  <SmatZ> EUR / CZK was ~22 at best.. now it is 25... USD / CZK was ~15, now it is ~20
02:27:52  <benjamingoodger> for me, a strong dollar is a good thing, I'm selling books in the US
02:28:08  <rortom> for me was well
02:28:16  <rortom> i get adsense income :\
02:28:23  <benjamingoodger> aha
02:28:34  <SmatZ> benjamingoodger: if you live in US, then yes :)
02:28:50  <benjamingoodger> SmatZ: a strong dollar means that pounds are cheap to buy with my dollars
02:29:04  <benjamingoodger> since I want to end up with as many pounds as possible, this is a good thing
02:29:29  <rortom> same thought that i follow ;)
02:30:24  <SmatZ> but if you want to export your books, given the price for them is 10USD, they cost now ... 6? GBP... but when USD was worth loss, it cost only 4? GBP in UK
02:30:45  <SmatZ> so strong dollar makes it header to export (but simpler to import)
02:30:51  <SmatZ> for you (if you live in US)
02:31:00  <benjamingoodger> no, they're printed in tennessee
02:31:00  <SmatZ> *loss -> less
02:31:37  <benjamingoodger> the only importing I'm doing is importing the dollars earned from the books and selling them for pounds
02:31:52  <SmatZ> yeah, if you make and sell the books in US, the higher price of imported books helps you
02:32:44  <benjamingoodger> well, yes
02:33:23  <benjamingoodger> if I'm competing against booksellers who can produce the book for  I don't want to be printing it in the UK for £4.50 and then shipping it to the US
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02:34:36  <SmatZ> sorry I am too tired to talk or think, good night :)
02:36:02  <benjamingoodger> night
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02:52:01  <Belugas> toum te doum tsoin tsoi
02:52:03  <Belugas> n
02:53:23  <benjamingoodger> tum ti tum indeed
02:53:57  <benjamingoodger> ah, it's far too late
02:53:58  <benjamingoodger> good night
02:55:42  <rortom> nite
02:58:43  <Belugas> nini dear tom
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03:40:35  <LadyHawk> hello peeps, i had a quick question
03:40:50  <LadyHawk> hmm lots of peeps have gone
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03:42:03  <LadyHawk> i was wondering if the nightly fixed the passenger subsidy bug
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03:50:24  <Belugas> which bug?
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08:57:27  <globester`> in 0.6.3 it's intended that you can't scroll top-bottom normally?
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10:26:50  <Wolf01> hello
10:27:10  <SmatZ> hello
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12:25:28  <Splex> im trying to build a deb package for ubuntu intrepid by following the wiki but it keeps failing: cc -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions  distclean.o   -o distclean \cc: distclean.o: No such file or directory
12:31:31  <Alberth> Splex: my trunk source checkout does not contain any *dist* file
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12:36:18  <Alberth> Splex: distclean is usually a Makefile target.
12:37:31  <SmatZ> Splex: what wiki? openttd wiki?
12:37:37  <Splex> yes
12:38:05  <Splex>
12:40:13  <SmatZ> I don't know, I don't use debian
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12:43:39  <Splex> actually, i just tried it again and it shows: "[SRC] No such source-file: distclean.[c|cpp|mm|rc]" when it enters the objs/release dir
12:52:42  <Alberth> Splex: you have to find out why it wants to build a distclean target. What Makefile are you running (and with what target)? Also, giving make a few debug options (--debug=b) may be helpful (there are also other debug flags, see make(1) for details.
12:56:01  <petern> alternatively, why do you need to make distclean?
12:56:30  <petern> or is that part of the deb script... heh
12:56:36  <Splex> Alberth: i followed the wiki for building a deb package.  I  did 'mv os/debian .'  and then ran './configure' and 'make' and then 'dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us'
12:56:49  <Splex> petern: it is part of the script
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13:01:39  <Alberth> Splex: hmm, do you know what this "step 3" they talk about? In the final section of the wiki, they don't say anything about running configure and/or make btw.
13:01:58  <Alberth> +is
13:02:30  <Splex> if going by the outline of the 'contents'
13:02:43  <Splex> at the top of the page, then i suppose they mean it replaces 'compiling and running'
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13:03:57  <Splex> it appears the ./configure and make i did was unnecessary... but it should not affect the package building as it should be doing a clean anyways
13:06:12  <Alberth> file a bug report
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13:42:32  <Splex> strange... the build process works fine when run on a fresh checkout... but only once.. if run twice it has the same failure
13:51:00  <Alberth> Splex: that's probably why it has never been caught until now
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14:08:24  <LadyHawk> hello people, could someone tell me if the nightly build fixes the passenger subsidy bug? (you won't get the subsidy if another passenger service is already in one of the towns stated in the subsidy)
14:09:04  <LadyHawk> i haven't had this once, but am getting it basically every time now in my game, as i have loads of passenger trains going from town to town
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14:09:43  <LadyHawk> sorry Belugas, i went to sleep
14:09:45  <LadyHawk> lol
14:10:44  <mrfrenzy> LadyHawk: isn't the subsidy for the first established service only?
14:10:50  <LadyHawk> it never used to be
14:11:22  <mrfrenzy> a few years ago it was atleast
14:12:18  <LadyHawk> i've got a long ottd history, i'm not sure when this started
14:12:34  <LadyHawk> but i remember having 3-4 different services in 1 town and always got the new subsidy offers
14:12:53  <LadyHawk> it could well have been more than a few years
14:12:54  <LadyHawk> lol
14:13:18  <LadyHawk> it's just the first time i noticed it not giving me the subsidies
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14:14:26  <fjb> Hello
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14:14:38  <LadyHawk> 1 last thing i could try to do is stop all the other trains while the new train is making its run
14:15:33  <fjb> Quak frosch123
14:15:37  <LadyHawk> but if the subsidies are only supposed to work for the 1st service, why does it OFFER the new ones?
14:15:59  <LadyHawk> it just gives me the idea that something's not working right
14:17:31  <frosch123> moin fjb
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14:26:03  <Alberth> LadyHawk: try to make a save game demonstrating the problem, and post it so we can have a look and discuss it.
14:28:14  <Alberth> LadyHawk: did you have a look in FlySpray, eg FS#265?
14:29:53  <LadyHawk> flyspray?
14:29:58  <LadyHawk> i'm unfamiliar with that
14:31:00  <LadyHawk> i'll load my saved game, set up a new subsidy train and save it... then i'll let it continue to see if i'll get it or not
14:31:04  <LadyHawk> if not, i'll post it
14:31:38  <LadyHawk> where would i post it though, i remember a bug forum at some point but things are so much different here since last time i came here
14:32:40  <Alberth> LadyHawk:
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14:33:27  <Alberth> LadyHawk: OpenTTD problems forum may be appropiate
14:33:43  <LadyHawk> thanks a lot
14:34:11  <LadyHawk> 265
14:34:13  <LadyHawk> that's the one
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14:34:46  <Alberth> LadyHawk: and if you remove the last "/task/265" you get all others too :)
14:35:04  <LadyHawk> Reason for closing:  Not a bug
14:35:04  <LadyHawk> Additional comments about closing:  You have to connect the city centers, not the suburbs
14:35:06  <LadyHawk> hmm
14:35:21  <LadyHawk> i get subsidies if it's 1st service no matter if it's the outskirts of a town or the center
14:35:30  <LadyHawk> 2nd service from center i dont get
14:35:48  <LadyHawk> i think... i'll see if i can double check that too
14:36:03  <Alberth> and the 2nd is slightly futher away?
14:36:17  <LadyHawk> once a town grows you cant get to the center anymore
14:36:26  <LadyHawk> unless you hack your way through the town
14:37:03  <Alberth> the forums have a few discussions about that problem too, and even a patch with a fix
14:48:44  <LadyHawk> i'd rather have the dev team fix the problem, i don't really like having to go around and get different stuff
14:48:50  <LadyHawk> thats why i asked bout the nightly
14:48:55  <LadyHawk> but i'm glad this bug is known
14:48:59  <LadyHawk> ty for your info :)
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14:57:11  <Alberth> Bug 265 is because of building not close enough to the town center. I doubt that passengers have anything to do with it. You should verify whether you can re-produce your problem while building close to the town center, and if so, make a save-game that demonstrates the problem. Then we can verify the problem, and devs have a case that actually fails (which is needed for debugging and for checking that their fix actually works)
14:57:28  <Patrick> otherwise it's a pebcak
14:59:43  <Rubidium> is that going to be a duplicate of FS#1075?
15:00:20  <Rubidium> or FS#1122 for that matter
15:03:46  <Splex> Alberth: I have reported the bug
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15:05:58  <Splex> Alberth: I mean, the debian package one
15:06:24  <Alberth> Rubidium: LadyHawk has a problem about not getting passenger subsidies
15:06:54  <Alberth> Splex: I understood that, thanks (although I don't use debian packages)
15:08:15  <LadyHawk> [29/11][14:58:58] <Alberth> Bug 265 is because of building not close enough to the town center. I doubt that passengers have anything to do with it. You should verify whether you can re-produce your problem while building close to the town center, and if so, make a save-game that demonstrates the problem.
15:08:20  <LadyHawk> do station names have anything to do with that?
15:08:35  <LadyHawk> or just the positioning
15:08:38  <Rubidium> no, but the location of them does
15:08:46  <Rubidium> as that's the 'location' of the station
15:09:00  <LadyHawk> is there a way to calculate which part of the town is city center?
15:09:05  <LadyHawk> i assume it grows as the town grows
15:09:20  <LadyHawk> or is it only the part with the streetlights/trees
15:09:29  <Rubidium> it's 9 tiles from town center
15:09:43  <LadyHawk> doesnt grow with the town? that's gonna be hard
15:09:44  <Rubidium> and the town center is where the name is
15:10:06  <LadyHawk> and the station only has to be inside that area with 1 tile to catch it?
15:10:12  <Patrick> subsidies I guess were designed for the start game
15:10:15  <Patrick> as a little boost
15:10:29  <Rubidium> if that's the tile with the station "flag", then yes, otherwise no
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15:10:37  <Alberth> LadyHawk: the station name sign has to in it
15:10:42  <Alberth> +be
15:10:45  <LadyHawk> hmm
15:10:52  <LadyHawk> so the larger the station, the harder it is to get the sign inside it
15:11:12  <LadyHawk> cuz the station sign seems to be usually at the very wrong end of the station
15:11:31  * Rubidium feels like he's reiterating what's already in the closed bugreports and the numerous forum threads
15:11:39  <LadyHawk> the very other end is in the center
15:11:51  <LadyHawk> but the station sign is at the wrong end
15:12:00  <LadyHawk> i'll  try to move my station and see if i can confirm i'mg etting the subsidy
15:12:47  <Alberth> LadyHawk: build a 1x1 station first, then build a larger station over it/against it
15:12:57  <LadyHawk> ya thats what i just did lol
15:13:20  <LadyHawk> that bit is 7 tiles away from the city name so it should catch in this theory
15:13:53  <LadyHawk> i've got it
15:13:59  <Alberth> Rubidium: it just demonstrates the 9 tile limit is not very intiuitive
15:14:01  <LadyHawk> and there is a 2nd service also going from that town
15:14:13  <LadyHawk> thanks for clearing this up for me
15:14:18  <LadyHawk> i appriciate it a lot :)
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15:14:47  <Rubidium> Alberth: a lot isn't very intuitive, but what else do you want?
15:14:59  <Rubidium> if station has townname accept the subsidy?
15:15:31  <LadyHawk> thats what it *used* to be, but like i said before, i've got a very long ttd history, i dont know if that's how it first used to be with openttd or if it was changed later on
15:16:04  <LadyHawk> that's why it confused me
15:17:04  <LadyHawk> first ttd i played was the very original :)
15:17:19  <LadyHawk> then the expansion with the alternate view
15:17:19  <Alberth> Rubidium: if it within town-radius eg? (
15:17:40  <Rubidium> LadyHawk: well... in OpenTTD it has always been as it is now
15:17:58  <LadyHawk> ok i'll remember the 9 tiles thing
15:18:11  <LadyHawk> i musta gotten lucky the previous times i was building subsidy only
15:18:17  <Rubidium> Alberth: town radius extends beyond where the town actually is
15:18:54  <Alberth> Very wide outside the town no doubt :(
15:19:37  <Alberth> Maybe we should add a visual feed-back of 'this is a great place to build if you want a subsidy'
15:21:02  <Alberth> Rubidium: is the 9 tile limit used for other things? otherwise we could increase the limit as the town grows in some way
15:21:28  <Rubidium> oh... you thought it was for the town A to town B subsidy... I just shown the good spot for industry D from the industry C to industry D subsidy
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15:22:51  <Rubidium> don't exactly know
15:23:48  <Patrick> mm, industrial subsidies
15:23:51  <Patrick> I forgot about them
15:28:11  <LadyHawk> i'm not sure what you guys are discussing at the moment but if the subsidy range for passengers from town A to B is increased as the town grows, it wont have an affect on industrial subsidies as the station needs to be in range of the industry
15:28:24  <LadyHawk> sorry if i completely got it wrong :p
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15:29:48  <Rubidium> it's about the feedback: "if you build a station here you are eligible for a subsidy" (which can be a different subsidy than the subsidy you want to actually take)
15:30:26  <LadyHawk> aha
15:30:54  <Alberth> LadyHawk: these problems come up too often, so we wonder how to make the game respond better.
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15:32:16  <LadyHawk> hmmm
15:32:40  <Alberth> LadyHawk: and as usual, alternatives are shot down very quickly, as they break in some way (which basically means the alternative is not good enough)
15:33:31  <LadyHawk> would it be possible to do like.. if a passenger subsidy comes up, and someone tries to place a station in the town with the subsidy, to make the station range go GREEN instead of blue if it's in range?
15:33:50  <LadyHawk> (i dont know how this is coded so dont know if this would be possible to do)
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15:34:35  <Alberth> LadyHawk: I just proposed that, but it doesn't work, since the game doesn't know whether you want the passenger subsidy, or the industrial one just 2 tiles out of range
15:35:30  <Alberth> LadyHawk: so 'green' would mean 'you are in range of at least one subsidy, not necessarily the one you want :(
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15:36:00  <LadyHawk> but that would give the player some idea of where they can place a station for a subsidy.. worst case scenario if theres an industrial subsidy right next to the town, they can still see the green circle around it as they move the station around the green grid
15:36:30  <LadyHawk> yes it won't be perfect, but perfect for what i understand in this matter is impossible
15:37:10  <LadyHawk> it'll be the player that still has to look around to see if it catches the subsidy they want
15:37:27  <LadyHawk> but it's the same now, and now players don't even have an idea of where they can and cant place the station
15:38:38  <Alberth> LadyHawk: devs don't like implementing partial solutions, as the problem will continue to come back (like it does now).
15:40:01  <Alberth> Rubidium: what if we add some indication of subsidies that would be in reach, just like the list of accepted/produced cargo
15:41:05  <LadyHawk> hmm that could be nice as well
15:41:19  <LadyHawk> in that same list 'subsidy: <cargotype>
15:41:21  <LadyHawk> '
15:45:32  <LadyHawk> that would give players more of an indication than a grid range would
15:45:52  <Alberth> yeah, I was wondering how to represent a subidy, but the cargo type would be enough indeed.
15:46:31  <Aali> not really
15:47:06  <Aali> because then it will look like you get a subsidy just for transporting that cargo type
15:48:17  <Aali> (its enough if you know all about subsidies, but for new players its confusing)
15:48:20  <Alberth> Right 'subsidy:' is the wrong word.
15:48:43  <LadyHawk> hmm
15:49:59  <LadyHawk> what exactly do you mean Aali, new players would see that list and think they can *only* transport the cargo type specified to get the subsidy, and not the others available?
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15:50:24  <Aali> no, they'll think they can just take that cargo anywhere and get extra cash
15:51:02  <Alberth> or even, that they will get the subsidy just by building there
15:51:09  <LadyHawk> ah
15:52:02  <LadyHawk> don't suppose you can make it clickable to open the subsidy list window
15:52:09  <LadyHawk> if that would even change anything
15:52:23  <Alberth> Maybe we should add something to the subsidy window and not the build window ?
15:53:07  <Aali> you could always make it a toggleable "advanced" setting
15:53:17  <Alberth> LadyHawk: clickable can be made, but I don't think it will help, as users don't consider clicking on it (in the same way that right-click could have an explanation, that nobody would read)
15:53:30  <Aali> so people who already know about subsidies can turn it on
15:54:12  <Alberth> that would kind of defeat a large part of the purpose wouldn't it?
15:55:11  <Alberth> In fact we should be able to high-light existing stations as well imho
15:55:15  <Aali> only if its not obvious what the setting does
15:55:34  <Patrick> or we could just cut subsidies from the game by default
15:55:42  <Patrick> oh, here's a question
15:55:45  <Patrick> plane speed factor
15:55:51  <Patrick> does it actually affect how much money they make
15:56:02  <Patrick> or is the passenger delivery payment calculation offset
15:56:04  <Alberth> yes, faster transport makes more money
15:56:19  <Alberth> (less aging while in transit)
15:56:21  <Patrick> ah
15:56:26  <LadyHawk> what would you add to the subsidy window though, like '(in range)' when they hover the station around to place it? sounds hard to code to a coding newbie :p
15:56:34  <Patrick> no wonder I was making 4 million a year with 3 planes
15:56:38  <Antdovu> and you can obviously transport more with faster planes
15:56:45  <Patrick> LadyHawk: and it sounds counterintuitive
15:56:48  <Alberth> :)
15:57:04  <Patrick> tbh the only game I play now is left 4 dead
15:57:26  <LadyHawk> i keep coming back to ottd, then i get bored and leave it, and come back to it later
15:57:30  <LadyHawk> lol
15:58:06  <Alberth> LadyHawk: start coding instead of playing
15:58:22  <LadyHawk> i'd be more of a burden than a help :p
15:58:35  <Alberth> update docs, wiki
15:59:40  <LadyHawk> yeah but by doing that i'd need to keep at it even when i get bored of ottd again
15:59:45  <LadyHawk> cuz i'd feel i can't leave it alone
16:00:09  <Alberth> If we select a subsidy, could we then display the range or so?
16:00:46  <LadyHawk> select subsidy in the subsidy window, then show a range grid?
16:01:00  <Alberth> LadyHawk: you cannot, docs and wiki age by themselves :P
16:01:32  <Alberth> yeah, then you'd also be able to see whether existing stations are in range
16:02:15  <LadyHawk> and the player wouldn't get confused about the fact they can just take the offered subsidy *anywhere* cuz they'd have to go through the subsidy window which clearly states *where* to take the cargo
16:02:52  <Alberth> I'd hope so
16:03:43  <LadyHawk> one thing to keep in mind with that then though is when you click on a subsidy in the subsidy window now, it skips the screen between the pickup/delivery places
16:03:53  <LadyHawk> wouldn't that enable/disable the grid?
16:04:28  <LadyHawk> unless it's a button or something in that window behind the text, 'show range grid'
16:04:48  <Alberth> hmm, you got a point. (and it makes clear how often I use subsidies :) )
16:05:52  <Alberth> I wouldn't mind having the grid enabled all the time (as long as the window is open). We'd probably need that toggle too though, nice idea.
16:05:53  <LadyHawk> + that grid would have to be ON TOP of the existing station range grid
16:06:07  <LadyHawk> or they'd still not be able to see it
16:06:49  <Alberth> I was thinking about colouring the station itself.
16:07:01  <LadyHawk> that would solve that problem
16:07:25  <Alberth> (ie a green station means 'this one can be used')
16:07:33  <LadyHawk> sounds good
16:07:55  <Antdovu> Firefox had a problem and crashed. We'll try to restore your tabs and windows when it restarts.
16:07:55  <Antdovu> SecondsSinceLastCrash: 336330
16:08:02  <LadyHawk> but would players get confused to stick the station range grid in the subsidy range grid and think 'cool i'm in range now'
16:08:12  <Antdovu> does this happen to anyone else?
16:08:24  <LadyHawk> unless you force disable station range grid when a subsidy toggle is enabled?
16:09:19  <Alberth> LadyHawk: not sure I understand the confusion
16:10:37  <Alberth> Antdovu: no way, I have never succeeded running a browser that long
16:11:02  <LadyHawk> well say you enable the subsidy range grid with a button in the subsidy
16:11:19  <LadyHawk> then the player turns on the station range grid on the station placement
16:11:30  <LadyHawk> and goes with the station range grid 1 tile INTO the subsidy range grid
16:11:38  <LadyHawk> just like you do when you place a station near an industry
16:11:57  <Alberth> hmm
16:12:02  <LadyHawk> they might think 'hurray, i'm in range' and place it, not knowing it's the green station colour they should be looking for
16:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's not even 4 days
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16:12:48  <Eddi|zuHause> well, of course that is an eternity when using windows :p
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16:13:11  <LadyHawk> unless you shorten the subsidy range grid to use the station grid... but of course the station range grid is smaller/bigger depending on which type of station you try to place
16:13:17  <Alberth> so no green grid, but just 'green' stations then?
16:13:30  <Antdovu> I'm pretty sure that time includes the browser being closed
16:14:11  <LadyHawk> that might be better Alberth yeah
16:14:11  <Patrick> or just change the model from center of town to anywhere
16:14:15  <Antdovu> But I get that kind of messages from firefox way too often
16:14:42  <LadyHawk> would remove the possible station range grid confusion
16:14:48  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: indeed, I missed a factor 60. At home, it makes no difference, the machine goes down every day, at work, it would then probably, as the machine goes down something like twice a year
16:15:03  <Alberth> Antdovu: don't vist new sites :)
16:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't use firefox...
16:15:41  <Alberth> Patrick: what do you mean "model"?
16:16:21  <Antdovu> I would use another browser if it had similar extensions to the ones I use
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16:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Patrick: part of the problem is that it is O(n^2) to search for the town center, so increasing that might be problematic (in a similar way to increasing station spread)
16:19:21  <Alberth> Patrick: ah, you mean, let go of the 'town center' limitation.
16:19:25  <Antdovu> what is it that actually makes station spread a speed issue?
16:20:23  <Alberth> more tiles to search, although I don't know whether it is really a problem
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16:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly what i said, an O(n^2) search through the catchment area. each time any cargo is produced or delivered, acceptance is recalculated or otherwise stuff changes
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16:24:15  <Antdovu> for each station tile
16:24:15  <Antdovu>     check whether it can catch any cargo?
16:24:21  <Patrick> Eddi|zuHause: really?
16:24:40  <Alberth> Antdovu: for each tile in the catchment area
16:24:46  <Patrick> for subsidisation, it's just calculated difference between signpost coordinates
16:25:03  <Patrick> wouldn't it be more sensible to have the acceptance as a property of the station
16:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the other way round: for each industry, for each distance(tile, industry)<station spread: has a station?
16:25:25  <Patrick> and update stations whenever a building or industry changes
16:25:39  <Patrick> it would probably be a lot of work
16:26:09  <Patrick> so yeah
16:26:15  <Alberth> and take mucho memory
16:26:44  <Antdovu> depending on how much processing power it takes, more memory use might be justified
16:27:12  <Antdovu> openttd barely uses any memory
16:27:29  <Patrick> no, only the number of cargo types * number of stations extra bits
16:29:55  <Alberth> +cargo dest
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17:29:40  <Fantasya> good day
17:31:20  <SmatZ> hello
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18:45:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14642 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-29 18:44:42
18:45:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 163 fixed, 30 changed by knovak (193)
18:45:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed, 1 changed by miris2009 (2)
18:45:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: esperanto - 41 fixed by Athaba (41)
18:45:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 4 fixed, 2 changed by Athaba (6)
18:45:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: greek - 20 fixed by vesnikos (20)
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18:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> same person changing two languages?
18:45:48  <rortom> hi
18:46:31  <rortom> damn hot pot :\
18:46:41  * rortom burned himself
18:46:50  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: I doubt there are any esperanto natives, who do not speak another language natively
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21:27:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14643 /trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Invalidate autoreplace window when toggling 'replace protection'.
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22:41:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14644 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: --with-direct-music handling could fail
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