Log for #openttd on 6th March 2009:
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00:08:54  <[wito]> My point is that there is just something special about a tunnel coming out of a cliff about half-way up, barreling over a bridge and disappearing into another cliff across a gulley
00:10:30  <[wito]> also, would it be possible for industries other than oilrigs to produce "neutral" stations?
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00:12:15  <[wito]> (Think luxury hotel with a helipad on the roof, or gas station with built in bus stops
00:12:20  <SpComb> stations for trees
00:14:23  <[wito]> what?
00:14:27  <[wito]> No
00:14:27  <[wito]> That's silly
00:14:44  <[wito]> stations that aren't owned by any player
00:15:19  <[wito]> bah
00:15:22  <[wito]> good night
00:17:43  <SpComb> no, you see, each tree could have it's own station
00:18:05  <SpComb> *its
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00:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never ever seen a gas station including a bus stop
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00:42:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15625 /trunk/src/string.cpp: -Codechange: remove unneeded assert
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01:23:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15626 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#2698]: UTF8 string handling could cause buffer overruns.
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03:01:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r15627 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Documentation: Add two Doxygen strings (Alberth).
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03:09:08  <Belugas> [18:41] <Yexo> [wito]: next suggestions: also build stations automatically, next suggestions: press a button and let the game play itself  <------ Yexo is now officially a dev in all its glory!!  :D
03:09:15  <Belugas> WELCOME HOME MY FRIEND!!
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05:47:30  <el_en> buenas mañanas
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07:00:39  <dihedral> openttd: /home/fairplay/openttd/src/string.cpp:121: void str_validate(char*, bool, bool): Assertion `c != '\r'' failed.
07:00:45  <dihedral> but smatz knows of it ;-)
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07:02:19  <dihedral> and by the looks of it he already fixed it ;-)
07:02:26  <dihedral> wow - SmatZ you are a speedy wee thing
07:02:27  <dihedral> ;-)
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07:09:19  <petern> 23:38 < [wito]> Pathfinding autorail!
07:09:35  <petern> ^ the curse of simutrans
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07:10:18  <Forked> mornin :-)
07:17:51  <dihedral> petern: iirc Aali did something like that with a wee hack, so that he could client-side use the ai things
07:18:05  <dihedral> he would set a start and end point and it would connect them with the same rail type
07:19:02  <dihedral> now the human players are AIs too
07:19:08  <petern> are you scottish?
07:21:21  <dihedral> no, why?
07:21:39  <petern> wee means piss, unless you're scottish
07:21:49  <Noldo> :P
07:22:14  <dihedral> irish friends of mine use it that way too, and i think you can get the meaning from the context ;-)
07:22:59  <dihedral> if you cannot, then you are just like me 3 year old nephew who also cannot understand a meaning of a word just by its context
07:23:06  <dihedral> :-P
07:25:46  <petern> scottish & irish then. are you irish?
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08:36:57  <planetmaker> good morning
08:37:03  <Noldo> morning
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09:02:17  <planetmaker>  /rename/dih/McDih/ :P
09:02:31  <planetmaker> :)
09:02:31  <dihedral> lol
09:05:19  <petern> och aye the noo
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09:08:50  <dihedral> arrr ;-)
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09:35:42  <dihedral> fairplay  3856  1.6  0.7 301380  8360 pts/1    Ss+  01:20   9:03 ./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D <- ^^
09:36:59  <petern> pah, 300MB is nothing :D
09:37:20  <dihedral> it's a lot if it's all in the shared mem on a vps ^^
09:37:41  <dihedral> btw, the dedicated server requires, why is that?
09:38:05  <petern> because nobody has written a patch that removes that requirement
09:38:31  <dihedral> ok
09:38:39  <dihedral> and openttd.grf is listed twice in lsof
09:38:45  <Noldo> dihedral: are you working on it?
09:39:03  <dihedral> not yet ;-)
09:39:27  <dihedral> but i'll prob have a look at it, i have school until like 15.00 ^^
09:39:30  <dihedral> cet
09:40:12  <dihedral> ok in this case means as much as - i'll see if i can figure that out ^^
09:40:19  <Noldo> I'm busy writing dropdownlist replacement in javascript
09:40:36  <dihedral> i am rewriting autopilot in tcl 8.5
09:40:39  <dihedral> :-P
09:45:22  <petern> does tcl change a lot between versions?
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09:47:00  <dihedral> well, you have new stuff
09:47:25  <dihedral> e.g. if you want a list to be separate parts you can do {*}$list
09:47:30  <dihedral> which is quite nice to be honest
09:47:45  <dihedral> msgcat also has some new stuff
09:47:53  <dihedral> and dictionaries are available
09:48:37  <dihedral> though most of all i love the hot code replacement, it is done simply by resourcing files
09:48:41  <dihedral> or reloading packages
09:48:55  <dihedral> so you can upgrade a running script :-)
09:48:56  <dihedral> yumm
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10:25:08  <petern> hello sir
10:26:26  <Darkvater> I see you like emma :)
10:29:35  <Felicitus> morning
10:31:08  <Felicitus> are there any plans to make a dedicated server scriptable? i.e. a squirrel not for AIs, but for dedicated servers?
10:31:59  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you want to script
10:32:07  <Yexo> several plans, no start of implementation afaik
10:32:55  <Felicitus> Eddi|zuHause: automatic starting of new maps on defined conditions, banning/kicking players, communication with a database for example
10:33:05  <Felicitus> player commands
10:33:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and which part of that can you not do with an external program like ap+?
10:34:03  <Felicitus> ap+?
10:34:14  <Felicitus> what's that?
10:34:19  <Forked> autopilot
10:34:22  <Forked> (I think)
10:34:30  <Felicitus> hmm i'll have a look
10:35:15  <Felicitus> wasnt aware of that such a thing exists ;)
10:37:05  <Felicitus> Eddi|zuHause: that's what i was looking for :)
10:37:33  <petern> heh
10:39:09  <dihedral> Yexo	[11:32:07] several plans, no start of implementation afaik <- not quite true ;-)
10:39:23  <Yexo> I forgot yours :)
10:39:31  <dihedral> ^^
10:39:39  <dihedral> Felicitus: which os are you using?
10:39:46  <Felicitus> dihedral: linux
10:39:53  <dihedral> good ;-)
10:40:05  <Felicitus> actually on the box it's gentoo, but it shouldnt matter
10:40:06  <Felicitus> why?
10:40:14  <dihedral>
10:40:28  <dihedral> only possix systems are supported :-P
10:40:47  <Felicitus> dihedral: is there a difference between ap+ and autopilot?
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10:41:55  <dihedral> no i just renamed autopilot to ap+ and called it my own
10:41:59  <dihedral> of course there is a difference!
10:42:04  <Felicitus> and which one?
10:42:08  <Darkvater> what is possix?
10:42:27  <Felicitus> Darkvater: dihedral took posix and called it his own :)
10:42:27  <dihedral> *posix
10:42:29  <dihedral> :-P
10:42:34  <Darkvater> hihi
10:42:40  <dihedral> nice one ;-)
10:42:58  <Felicitus> i should take openttd and call it my own! like...uhm....closedTTD!
10:43:10  <dihedral> and
10:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> call it "Transporter"!
10:43:26  <dihedral> HAHA
10:43:27  <dihedral> :-)
10:43:29  <Alberth> Darkvater: POSIX defines a large set of programmer interfaces commonly known as the Unix OS
10:43:32  <Felicitus> dihedral: thanksalot :)
10:43:50  <Alberth> Felicitus: "freeTTD"
10:43:54  <dihedral> Felicitus: feel free to ask for support in #openttd.ap
10:44:13  <dihedral> Alberth: and what is unix and mac os x?
10:44:20  <dihedral> they too count as posix systems
10:44:27  <Darkvater> Alberth: yes, bu what is POSSIX :)
10:44:45  <dihedral> it just includes the word Super ^^
10:44:55  <dihedral> SM = Super Man....
10:44:56  <Felicitus> dihedral: well, as kurt is going to retire with 0.7.0, we are looking forward to continue the project, and i think it will be perfectly possible using autopilot
10:44:57  <dihedral> eh...
10:44:58  <dihedral> yah
10:45:13  <dihedral> Felicitus: it will not
10:45:14  <dihedral> ^^
10:45:27  <dihedral> currently the console does not give enough info
10:45:29  <dihedral> i think
10:45:38  <Felicitus> dihedral: yes, detecting of one-way-trains and destroying buildings would require a server side patch
10:45:44  <dihedral> if there was an on_yearly.scr callback, that would be great
10:45:56  <Felicitus> but its a huge start instead of writing everything from scratch
10:45:56  <dihedral> then you could infact do a lot more stuff
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10:46:06  <petern> moooooooo
10:46:24  * dihedral milks petern ..... eh... sounds odd! sorry!
10:46:33  <Felicitus> its getting nasty
10:46:38  <Felicitus> away for smoke :)
10:46:52  <dihedral> Felicitus: apply the better smoke patch ^^
10:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... pushing daisies is great, but watching it in german, you always think you are missing something
10:48:35  <dihedral> you always miss something when they dubb stuff (unless the orignial is manderin ^^(
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10:52:33  <dihedral> Felicitus: kurt had the game directly connected to a mysql db writing details directly to it
10:52:52  <dihedral> and he of course from there had way more access to information than you can get from the console
10:53:33  <dihedral> you could use a mix, of patching openttd and modifying ap+ (or avignon when it's ready) to achieve the same
10:53:47  <dihedral> and use the tcl script to do the mysql db handling
10:53:51  <Felicitus> dihedral: yes, but implementing a patch which writes more info is much less effort than rewriting everything
10:53:55  <Felicitus> yes
10:53:56  <Felicitus> thats hat i thought of
10:54:42  <dihedral> however, if you had squirrel as a console language, you could do a lot from the console - that would perhaps be a very interesting mix ^^
10:55:05  <dihedral> sad things for the tcl script is that the communication with the game is not syncroneous!
10:55:30  <Felicitus> well, i guess it would be easier to just export ottd api calls to squirrel and script it completely from there
10:56:41  <dihedral> and have the squirrel part do the db connection
10:56:52  <dihedral> that again runs to the same thing - you dont need / want openttd to handle that
10:56:53  <Felicitus> hmm...if there was a way for an AI to output rcon messages...
10:57:35  <dihedral> it would be nice to have a method of exactly knowing what the output of a console command is
10:58:07  <dihedral> but there is no guarentee that the next line of output is the reply of your command
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10:59:13  <Felicitus> hmm i dont get that, dihedral, for the part of exactly knowing what the output of a console command is
11:00:31  <dihedral> i currently us a console alias
11:00:46  <[wito]> I think Airport noise levels need tweaking
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11:00:48  <dihedral> echo "start"; %!; echo "end"
11:00:49  <dihedral> ^^
11:00:56  <dihedral> or along those lines at least
11:00:58  <[wito]> Intercontinental airports are nearly impossible to place
11:01:13  <Felicitus> but i would, for example, have an AI which gets the current date and outputs something like "Date 2000-01-01 company <id> money <n>", for example
11:01:23  <Felicitus> and the script could parse that
11:01:28  <dihedral> getdate
11:01:30  <dihedral> companies
11:01:50  <dihedral> you can do the processing of that in tcl
11:01:59  <Felicitus> oh, is that already available in rcon?
11:02:06  <dihedral> ...
11:02:11  <dihedral> list_cmds ;-)
11:02:12  <dihedral> try that
11:02:20  <Felicitus> i have no running game at the moment :)
11:02:26  <dihedral> that has been there for quite some time now
11:02:39  <Felicitus> but it was an example. more advanced would be an AI callback which reports when a player destroys a building
11:03:06  <dihedral> you dont have that, that would need patching
11:03:18  <dihedral> and you can patch the server to output a string and catch it with tcl
11:03:27  <Felicitus> yep
11:04:27  <dihedral> and it's not said that if squirrel was the console language, that you would have those details at hand
11:05:08  <Felicitus> so for that specific "problem" it works, but depending on the requirements, and if everyone would merge the patches into trunk, we would have console spam - thats the idea of having some "AI" running as server where server operators can individually script their environment and selectively send messages to the console
11:07:08  <petern>
11:07:10  <dihedral> what do you mean with AI?
11:07:14  <petern> ^ bloody catholics
11:07:25  <Felicitus> dihedral: replace AI with "dedicated server script"
11:07:48  <dihedral> but it's not said, that the script would be allowed to access those details - that's what i was saying
11:08:05  <Felicitus> yes of course. there would be the need for a special API
11:08:09  <dihedral> if the console language was changed to squirrel, it's not a given that all those details are available for your script to read
11:08:20  <Felicitus> no that's not what i proposed
11:08:21  <dihedral> so either way - you'd have to patch your game
11:08:30  <Felicitus> the console language stays the same
11:08:37  <dihedral> ...
11:08:42  <dihedral> gnah
11:08:45  <Felicitus> wait
11:08:59  <Felicitus> i'll try to explain it the other way
11:09:11  <dihedral> why would you have a scriptable language for servers and not in the game console?
11:09:23  <dihedral> that kinda makes no sense
11:09:31  <Felicitus> it would be nice if that would work, of course
11:10:13  <dihedral> if you have a squirrel part to script some stuff and gain access to details, it makes sense to use that language on the console also
11:10:40  <dihedral> then if you dont have the script, you can still send the same langauge via rcon or anything else to your server and have the same amount of controll / access
11:12:29  <Felicitus> well maybe i'm just too focused on AI :)
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11:29:07  <Alberth> [wito]: would you like one in your back yard?
11:29:33  <Alberth> [wito]: you can put it down a bit further away, and set up a passenger feeder service to the town
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11:38:42  <planetmaker> question concerning bananas: is it ok for a grf team to register something like "project-name" as author so that several people may manage that grf?
11:39:08  <planetmaker> ohey, Felicitus :) How's your AI doing?
11:39:16  <[wito]> Alberth: I've tried plopping them on the other side of the map
11:39:45  <Yexo> planetmaker: imo that should be ok
11:39:59  <Yexo> ^^ that is a personal opinion though
11:40:04  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: you need appropriately large cities
11:40:21  <[wito]> I see
11:40:33  <[wito]> still
11:40:41  <planetmaker> :) Nice to hear that, Yexo. I proposed that but cautioned to check back:
11:40:45  <[wito]> they should be freely ploppable in no-towns-land
11:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: no, that would be way too easy
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11:41:24  <Felicitus> planetmaker: on hold currently. i'm busy with my application server project and now that kurt is going to retire with 0.7.0, there might be additional work
11:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes the noise limit basically irrelevant
11:41:36  <planetmaker> oh... :S
11:41:43  <planetmaker> sad to hear that.
11:41:51  <planetmaker> You're going to take over that hosting?
11:41:57  <Felicitus> i dont know
11:42:05  <Felicitus> hosting is not the problem
11:42:13  <planetmaker> managing, yes, I know :)
11:42:16  <Felicitus> :)
11:42:30  <Felicitus> well actually implementing something like kurt's with the same ruleset and features
11:42:48  <planetmaker> hm... did you ask him to supply you with the scripts and patches he uses?
11:42:57  <Felicitus> yes, but energetic said he won't
11:43:10  <Felicitus> maybe because its only a "hack" which is not compatible with 0.7.0
11:43:15  <planetmaker> I guess, if he discontinues his services, he might hand it over.
11:43:39  <planetmaker> oh well. I don't know his stuff. I remember him saying it's hackish... but... well.
11:43:48  <Felicitus> i guessed that also, but doesnt seem to be the case
11:43:53  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: those users are never happy. On the one hand they complain it is too easy, at the other hand, they complain it is too difficult as soon as the game forbids something :P
11:43:58  <planetmaker> One might profit from it nevertheless.
11:44:29  <Felicitus> yes, that's for sure: many hours of nice games
11:44:39  <planetmaker> [wito]: if the catchment area of an airport is too small, use distant join stations to your advantage.
11:44:44  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: if you want easy airport placement, turn off the noise limit
11:45:11  <planetmaker> You played there a let, eh, Felicitus ?
11:45:22  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: alternatively, make up a plan for noise limits that is balanced
11:45:32  <Felicitus> planetmaker: yep. 55 rated games so far
11:45:39  <planetmaker> wow, that's a bit :)
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11:45:51  <Felicitus> heh, thats nothing
11:46:02  <planetmaker> how long is the ingame time?
11:46:03  <Felicitus> there are people with over 300 rated games :)
11:46:05  <planetmaker> 10 years?
11:46:14  <Felicitus> it depends on how fast the goal is reached
11:46:16  <planetmaker> or was it rather a hard limit on money?
11:46:28  <planetmaker> I only played it 1 1/2 times :)
11:46:41  <Ammler> is it possible to "catch up" as newbie on that server, Felicitus?
11:47:03  <Felicitus> well, the start amount is 100.000 pounds, and if the goal is a company value of 17 million, it can take a few years - i guess around 10-12 years, but in extreme cases up to 20
11:47:21  <Ammler> or do you need just to play many games to be on top
11:47:24  <Felicitus> Ammler: depends, if you want to go up in the rankings, you really have to play alot
11:47:27  <planetmaker> well. It's an afternoon worth of playing :)
11:47:46  <planetmaker> Felicitus: do you know the ranking used for chess?
11:47:59  <Noldo> ELO?
11:48:08  <Felicitus> i'm not sure how points are distributed, i have to ask energetic about it, but i think that you get less points if there is nobody playing
11:48:11  <Felicitus> planetmaker: chess?
11:48:12  <planetmaker> Might be the name, I don't recall. I only know the principle :)
11:48:26  <planetmaker> chess. One of the oldest games, you know :)
11:48:35  <Noldo> it's used in Magic the Gathering circles too
11:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you get more points if you beat a person that has higher score than you than he would get if he beat you
11:48:58  <Felicitus> no, never heard of it. was that a game on a c64? :)
11:49:43  <planetmaker> o_O
11:49:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think it's problematic if more than 2 persons play per match
11:49:47  <Felicitus> just kidding
11:50:03  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: no, it works as long as you don't have teams.
11:50:12  <Ammler> hehe, that reminds me of our coopetition development. ;-)
11:50:28  <Felicitus> well, if there are more than one player per company, the points will be divided
11:50:30  <planetmaker> you just need to apply different points to 1st, 2nd, 3rd... nth place.
11:50:38  <planetmaker> where nth place = -1st place
11:50:49  <Ammler>
11:50:53  <planetmaker> Felicitus: that system doesn't accumulate points.
11:51:08  <planetmaker> It's not a measure of "how much" but of "how good" you play
11:51:28  <planetmaker> Winning against strong opponents gives you way more points than winning against weak ones.
11:51:39  <Felicitus> on kurt's you eman?
11:51:46  <Felicitus> whoops
11:51:47  <Felicitus> mean, even
11:51:48  <planetmaker> And in the adoption for multiplayer games, you win more, if you win agains many than against a few.
11:52:08  <planetmaker> Felicitus: I'm just describing a modified ELO rating system :)
11:52:12  <Felicitus> ah ok :)
11:53:05  <planetmaker> I find that kind of rating system far more interesting than accumulating points. Because the always-on players will lead those. But they're not necessarily good players.
11:53:20  <Felicitus> well, that might be an idea to think about
11:53:23  <Felicitus>
11:53:31  <Felicitus> thats how a game look like with more than one player
11:53:42  <Felicitus> per company :)
11:53:48  <planetmaker> I adopted that for our local kicker tournament held after each lunch. After ~100 games for all ~8 people participating it stabilizes and gives a good judgment of their strength.
11:54:06  <planetmaker> (well, more people, but those are the regulars)
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11:55:17  <planetmaker> yeah. I'd give foobr +40, +20 to 2nd, 0 to 3rd, -20 to 4th, -40 to 5th and modify that somehow by the average rating of the players
11:55:56  <planetmaker> oh, it's 6. So. +10 and -10 for 3rd / 4th.
11:57:06  <Felicitus> hmm it depends. i would also give points according to the distance of players in the ranking
11:57:41  <Felicitus> or maybe not...
11:57:49  <Felicitus> everything has pro and cons
11:57:58  <planetmaker> well... at first I wouldn't. That already reflects after some time in their relative score. But one can, of course, modify it with a range of parameters.
11:58:04  <planetmaker> E.g. also the starting date...
11:58:37  <planetmaker> If I ran such server, I'd set up a usual cummulative one and have a hidden one like that where I first test the parameters to get good results :)
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11:59:04  <planetmaker> And I might then introduce it after some time when I'm confident that those make sense.
11:59:12  <Felicitus> yes but one thing must be for sure: 1st place always gets more points than 2nd place :)
11:59:15  <Alberth> planetmaker: Go also has an interesting way of assigning strength. Weak players get a few stones ahead on the board to compensate.
11:59:19  <planetmaker> Felicitus: sure.
11:59:35  <planetmaker> Alberth: I know :) But hardly possible with openttd, I think
11:59:56  <planetmaker> But with Go it makes perfect sense. Despite that I lose :(
12:00:02  <Alberth> a few months head start, or more money, or less interest?
12:00:24  <Alberth> planetmaker: everybody loses 50% of the time, all the time :)
12:00:28  <Noldo> is ELO used in Go too?
12:00:29  <planetmaker> Alberth: players may join any time.. so ... I don't think that's feasable.
12:00:57  <Alberth> Noldo: Go is 4000 years old, ELO didn't exist then
12:00:59  <planetmaker> Alberth: with the Go way of compensation? Yeah, that's true.
12:01:04  <Noldo> Alberth: :P
12:01:05  <planetmaker> Chess, too :)
12:02:02  <planetmaker> But OpenTTD is different in that respect, that IMO the result with increasing playing time gets more and more independent of the starting conditions.
12:02:39  <planetmaker> Starting with half the money won't make me weaker, it will just make me slower gain money. But once you make more money than you can spent on building the increase is semi-linear.
12:02:48  <Alberth> Noldo: they have 'kyu' and 'dan' ratings. A beginner starts at 25th kyu, and goes up to 1st kyu. After 1kyu you get 1st dan, and then up to 9th dan or so for the profesionals.
12:02:51  <planetmaker> And then the slope is defined by your skill in building
12:03:18  <planetmaker> And your persistance to constantly build and improve...
12:04:31  <Alberth> Noldo: each step below your opponent means you get 1/2 stone ahead.
12:05:00  <Noldo> this much I knew
12:05:24  <Alberth> Noldo: whole stones are put on the board at fixed places before the game starts, and the last 1/2 stone become 5 prisoner stones
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12:05:53  <Noldo> now there is something new for me
12:07:06  <Alberth> Noldo: (and the first step down means you get black, and may put the first stone on the board)
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12:08:08  <Ammler> the fis point system might be better for rankies with more then 2
12:10:08  <Ammler> (first you transfer the ladder of current game to points, second, you calculate a weight for the game itself)
12:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> And your persistance to constantly build and improve... <- i typically fail at that part
12:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i love watching my trains and my network too much at that point ;)
12:10:40  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: same here. Once I've setup some basic network, I slow down a lot.
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12:10:45  <planetmaker> For exactly that reason.
12:11:27  <Alberth> planetmaker: that's a weakness you should work on :P
12:12:03  <planetmaker> :D
12:12:12  <planetmaker> Alberth: have a guess why I prefer the coop servers :P
12:12:58  <Alberth> I guess all great players have this problem :D
12:13:20  <planetmaker> hehe. I assuem :)he... completely different topic: yesterday a thread surfaced which referenced your GRL. Did anything happen to that after early 2008?
12:13:28  <planetmaker> *assume.
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12:20:27  <Alberth> nope
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12:21:53  <Alberth> I abandoned it after deciding that the code was not compact enough; It was already at something like 1000+ lines of code, and almost halfway iirc.
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12:22:31  <Alberth> Also it was 'stupid' code, the same thing over and over again in subtly different variants.
12:23:14  <planetmaker> hm... a pity.
12:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause> 1000 loc?
12:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that's kinda huge
12:23:49  <Alberth> I think one should develop a meta language for describing the GRF structure in, and use that instead.
12:23:52  <planetmaker> because the resulting language looked like something which one actually could learn without becoming a kind of binary or hexadecimal lifeform.
12:24:28  <Alberth> yeah, that was the idea; make a 1-to-1 mapping of current NFO in a more friendly syntax.
12:25:01  <Alberth> Also, at work I am also writing a compiler, and 2 at the same time is a bit too much... ;)
12:25:08  <planetmaker> :P
12:25:28  <Eddi|zuHause> my is only 350 lines
12:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause> plus the tables for property names
12:25:53  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I looked briefly, but didn't find it. Got a link?
12:26:05  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 1000 loc is quite easy, a lot copy/paste with a few changes. Maintaining would be a night mare.
12:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> some thread named "newgrf description language"
12:26:19  <planetmaker> ah
12:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really get to start on varaction2, though...
12:27:43  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: iirc, you used an approach closer to generating NFO rules specific for a train or rv
12:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something significantly more abstract than NFO
12:30:04  <Alberth> planetmaker: Ideally, one would be able to generate the current NewGRF specs from the meta-language program, so these are always consistent with each other.
12:30:48  <planetmaker> Alberth: yeah, I understand that. And I find it a good approach
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12:31:13  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but no continued work on that either?
12:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i might try to find time to continue somewhen...
12:33:10  <planetmaker> I think I've read enough to see that there's not much way around such low-level stuff as NFO. But having a more higher-level approach to programming newgrfs, would imo enhance the development process of those a bit
12:33:13  <Alberth> planetmaker: I still have a repository somewhere if you are interested
12:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> one problem i had was that i didn't really have a sensible grf to code in parallel, as kind of an example
12:33:42  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: FIRS :)
12:33:57  <planetmaker> Alberth: that would mean I'd have to work on that. :P
12:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a little too big already ;)
12:34:19  <planetmaker> I got the source code, though and built it yesterday.
12:34:34  <Alberth> you can always pull out the scanner and parser, and start over again :)
12:35:12  <planetmaker> Alberth: I haven't studied nor obtained otherwise the knowledge on how to tacle parsers and compilers.
12:35:41  <Eddi|zuHause> did you manually write a parser, or did you use a generator (like lex/yacc)?
12:35:49  <planetmaker> (nor any algorithm theory actually)
12:36:25  <Alberth> I used lex/yacc of course. Way to much work to write manually.
12:36:42  <planetmaker> So it's IMO realist to assess that I'd spend long time geting familiar with the basics at least :)
12:37:12  <Alberth> planetmaker: if you know the concept 'tree', it is not so difficult. My GRL is very simple.
12:37:12  <planetmaker> Heck, I don't even know C/C++ sufficient in order to understand the openttd source...
12:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: 3 years ;)
12:37:56  <planetmaker> Alberth: I know what a tree is supposed to be and faciliate. But I know no implementation details in any way.
12:38:07  <Eddi|zuHause> 4 semesters for basic computer science, and then at least 2 semesters for compiler building and programming language theory
12:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can start to get some practical work done ;)
12:38:19  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yeah :)
12:38:42  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: nah, that thoeory is all done for you by lex/yacc :P
12:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> thinking in trees is rather tricky for an "outsider" ;)
12:39:20  <Alberth> planetmaker: converting the scanner/parser to Python is not very difficult. I can do that if you like.
12:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, just use ply
12:39:46  <Alberth> indeed.
12:40:21  <planetmaker> Sorry, don't worry for me :S
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12:42:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15628 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#2705]: kicking/banning a client from the Client list window crashed the server
12:42:31  <petern> nice
12:42:35  <Alberth> Not sure how much one would gain by switching to Python. There is still that large input language to code manually if using something GRL-like.
12:46:36  <dihedral> fairplay  3856  2.0  0.8 400012  8928 pts/1    Ss+  01:20  15:24 ./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D
12:46:44  <dihedral> petern, ^ 100 mb more than last time i posted
12:47:11  <petern> unless you are willing to use some kind of malloc debugger i'm not particularly interested
12:47:31  <dihedral> tell me what i can do
12:48:47  <petern> find some kind of malloc debugger :p
12:49:22  <Alberth> call your nearest computer dealer, and tell them to deliver a truck with memory chips at your house :P
12:49:29  <dihedral> hehe
12:49:37  <Ammler> ask your Admins to restart it from time to time :P
12:49:45  * dihedral slaps Ammler
12:55:40  <Darkvater> valgrind?
12:56:13  <dihedral> ran that one already on my work computer
12:56:25  <Noldo> didn't show anything?
12:57:16  <Darkvater> should show up after an hour I'd assume if it's leaking like hell
13:00:25  <dihedral> well then i'll do it again
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13:04:43  <Alberth> hello glx
13:05:18  <Alberth> tnx for your pointers into window resizing code. There were exactly right.
13:05:21  <planetmaker> Ho glx & SmatZ & Darkvater :)
13:05:40  <dihedral> DarthVater ^^
13:05:48  <dihedral> that's what i always think of ^^
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13:06:30  <Alberth> glx: I submitted a patch yesterday with a fix, except for the new resize sprite, as I lost the battle with gimp :(
13:06:32  <planetmaker> hehe @ dih - I know that creepy feeling ;)
13:06:55  <Darkvater> dihedral: you insult me
13:07:05  * glx votes for a kick ;)
13:07:11  <Darkvater> all in favour?
13:07:38  <Alberth> wouldn't that confirm what they are afraid of?
13:07:42  <planetmaker> Darkvater: ^^
13:07:43  <glx> Alberth: I don't check FS regulary
13:07:44  <planetmaker> :)
13:08:06  <dihedral> i am sorry Darkvater
13:08:15  <dihedral> ;-)
13:08:55  <dihedral> please forgive me
13:09:29  * Darkvater loves the suspense
13:10:03  <Darkvater> I will forgive you if you go back to coding for openttd :)
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13:11:20  <dihedral> are there any special options you'd advise me to use with valgrind?
13:11:35  <dihedral> Darkvater, i want to disable a dedicated server from needing ^^
13:13:34  <glx> dihedral: feed it with an empty one
13:14:12  <TinoDidriksen> --leak-check=full is good to add for valgrind.
13:14:15  <dihedral> but then it still opens it
13:14:54  <dihedral> glx, does a dedicated server _need_ to have that file open?
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13:22:10  <Darkvater> dihedral: approved
13:22:22  <dihedral> thanks ;-)
13:23:43  <dihedral> while at it, what info does a dedicated server need from TRGI.GRF
13:24:27  <Yexo> iirc it needs the sprite sizes
13:25:47  <planetmaker> Yexo: an empty will do, though. And empty files tend to have little information on sprite sizes.
13:26:07  <Yexo> planetmaker: != TRGI.GRF :p
13:26:20  <planetmaker> oh, sorry, wrong file :) Missed that one.
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13:28:36  <dihedral> Yexo, are those details 'detected' or can they be provided with a grf that actually holds no sprites?
13:28:43  <dihedral> or just empty sprites
13:29:04  <dihedral> aim being, that at least the dedicated server could run out of the box ;-)
13:29:13  <Yexo> dihedral: I've no idea. Have you tried running the server with just the opengfx graphics?
13:29:53  <dihedral> hmmm.....
13:30:15  <planetmaker> :) Would pro'ly be the easy and free solution :)
13:30:51  <dihedral> i am aiming fro free
13:30:52  <dihedral> ;-)
13:31:23  <Noldo> think I have set of graphicfiles with all sprites just transparent
13:31:27  <planetmaker> Yexo: I actually suggest to deliver the next stable along with OpenGFX. It will avoid the hassle of "where do I get / need to put these files?"
13:31:49  <Noldo> there are still some sprites missing
13:31:55  <Yexo> planetmaker: imo that should only be done if opengfx is actually finished (ie no black boxes)
13:32:12  <planetmaker> Yexo: I disagree :)
13:32:18  <planetmaker> The game w/o is unplayable.
13:32:20  <Ammler> it works with empty png
13:32:23  <planetmaker> With it, it's playable
13:32:42  <Ammler> needs only the nfo
13:32:45  <Yexo> sure, but I can already see tens of bug reports coming: Why are there black boxes in the game?
13:32:55  <planetmaker> I think people getting to start the game, seeing black boxes and asking for their reason is better than them failing and not coming back.
13:33:32  <planetmaker> Yexo: it's trading one bug for another. But a fatal one against a graphical one.
13:34:02  <Yexo> yeah, but the fatal one is quite good documented, and information on how to fix it can be found everywhere
13:34:24  <Yexo> the best solution would still be to complete opengfx in time :)
13:34:39  <Yexo> sadly there doesn't seem to be any progress lately
13:35:24  <planetmaker> I agree, the best solution is a completed OpenGFX.
13:35:41  <Noldo> btw, anyone interested in figuring out what kind of terrain templates the old terrain generator wants
13:35:56  <planetmaker> Sure. But a documented, fatal bug still is a way more severe bug than a few black boxes. And documenting that is easy.
13:36:05  <dihedral> i agree with Yexo
13:36:10  <Yexo> Noldo: not really
13:36:21  <dihedral> the amount of 'where do i get / put' will be the same as 'why are the black boxes'
13:36:40  <Yexo> why would you want to use the original map generator anyway now we have terragenesis?
13:36:47  <dihedral> what you could do however, is, when starting the game, and no graphic set is found, to offer a 'download opengfx from bananas'
13:37:06  <Noldo> Yexo: to make opengfx complete ofcource :)
13:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> terragenesis is not perfect either
13:37:19  <dihedral> but more perfect ^^
13:37:20  <Eddi|zuHause> perlin maps are too uniform
13:37:21  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: agreed, but it's a whole lot better than the original map generator
13:37:34  <Noldo> dihedral: with no fonts?
13:39:36  <petern> Eddi|zuHause! newrealisticterraforming!
13:39:43  <petern> erosion, tectonic movements...
13:39:58  <Noldo> ohnoes
13:40:02  <wollollo> smooth landscapes...
13:40:14  <planetmaker> volcanos!
13:40:23  <planetmaker> earthquakes!
13:40:32  <planetmaker> ufos!
13:40:35  <planetmaker> ehhh :)
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13:41:02  <glx> pre 0.7.0 have earthquakes ;)
13:41:07  <Eddi|zuHause> petern: yes, and rivers cutting through mountain ranges ;)
13:41:07  <petern> planetmaker! your job!
13:41:12  <dihedral> Power plant on opening gauge.... Hiroshima
13:41:14  <planetmaker> :)
13:41:41  * planetmaker has the feeling that I got a secret update to 'someone' :P
13:41:45  <petern> the old map generator is better in some regards
13:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember much of the old map generator
13:42:36  <wollollo> how is it better?
13:43:32  <wollollo> (By the way, is it still possible to play with the old AI?)
13:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:43:43  <petern> on arctic and subtropic you get distinct regions
13:43:48  <petern> high and low
13:44:15  <petern> tgp doesn't do that
13:44:58  <petern> tgp often struggles to even reach the snow line some times...
13:45:08  <petern> often sometimes? never mind :p
13:45:34  <petern> tgp is better at vast lakes i think
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13:45:59  <TrueBrain> hello lovely people :)
13:46:05  <Yexo> hello TrueBrain
13:46:12  * dihedral waves a wiled hello to TrueBrain
13:46:12  <petern> hello sir tb
13:46:20  *** Scuddles^ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:46:22  <TrueBrain> how are you guys doing here? :)
13:46:30  <petern> well
13:46:34  <petern> we were lost, doing nothing
13:46:36  <petern> until you arrived
13:46:45  <TrueBrain> now you are stll lost, but talking
13:46:51  <dihedral> aye
13:46:52  <TrueBrain> so I am good for something after all ;)
13:47:03  <dihedral> # save me, save me, save me......
13:47:19  <TrueBrain> # and I will see you in a little while
13:47:51  <petern> let me guess
13:47:53  <petern> save me by queen
13:48:06  <dihedral> \o/
13:48:19  <petern> it was the "save me" bit that i guessed
13:48:19  <TrueBrain> I at least sing songs of Pax 217 :)
13:48:41  <dihedral> it was kinda obvious petern
13:48:51  <dihedral> just like #mamma
13:49:02  <petern> should i have suffixed with ";)" ?
13:49:10  <dihedral> ^^
13:49:15  <TrueBrain> petern: sarcasm and IRC don't combine :p
13:49:32  <petern> wasn't sarcasm
13:49:33  <dihedral> saIrCasm
13:49:35  <dihedral> it works
13:50:58  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I didn't set up my OpenTTD mail account yet ... lol :p
13:51:22  <planetmaker> hey, hello TrueBrain :)
13:52:47  <glx> hello TrueBrain
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13:53:06  <Belugas> hello peoplez
13:53:30  <planetmaker> hello Dolphin^WBelugas
13:53:59  * TrueBrain hugs Belugas
13:54:03  <TrueBrain> glx: got anywhere with 10.3.9?
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13:54:26  <glx> yes we found what cause the crashes
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13:54:40  <glx> but openttd is uncompilable on 10.3.9
13:54:48  <planetmaker> oh... :(
13:55:21  <planetmaker> glx: what changed that broke compil-ability?
13:55:52  <glx> SDK :)
13:56:05  <planetmaker> he...
13:56:22  <glx> openttd seems to need 10.4.0u SDK even when targeting for 10.3.9
13:56:25  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah, you need 10.4u SDK to compile it, that is no suprise
13:56:34  <TrueBrain> that is because how the dynamic system works in OSX
13:56:43  <planetmaker> hu?
13:56:49  <TrueBrain> I guess if you add some #ifdef blocks, you can make it compile on 10.3 again
13:57:10  <glx> anyway the breaking rev is r14773
13:59:21  <TrueBrain> signals, yeah, Rubidium told me that yesterday ... weird that it makes 10.3.9 goes crazy ;)
13:59:50  <glx> probably something added magically by a lib ;)
14:00:19  <glx> and as SDK 10.4u is used it adds something unavailable on 10.3
14:00:39  <TrueBrain> anyway, if you want OpenTTD to compile on a 10.3.9 SDK, you need to add #ifdefs around blocks like 'statvfs' .. how are they called ...
14:01:01  *** Zahl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:01:01  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
14:01:01  <glx> that's not the problem :)
14:01:12  <TrueBrain> then why does it fail to compile?
14:01:25  <dihedral> os x does not support as many singals
14:01:26  <glx> some macros and enums are not defined in 10.3.0 SDK (the one available on 10.3
14:01:34  <TrueBrain> like?
14:01:41  <dihedral> i cannot remember, i need to check
14:01:44  <dihedral> i noticed that with ap+
14:01:54  <TrueBrain> dihedral: I was talking to glx, sorry ;)
14:01:59  <glx> like MAC_OS_X_VERSION_10_4
14:02:06  <TrueBrain> glx: those are easy defined :)
14:02:13  <dihedral> when i added signal handling, i then filtered for signals supported by the system, and then it was fine
14:02:18  <glx> or gestaltSystemVersionMajor
14:02:31  <TrueBrain> #ifndef MAC_OS_X_VERSION_10_4
14:02:33  <TrueBrain> #define MAC_OS_X_VERSION_10_4 1040
14:02:34  <TrueBrain> #endif
14:02:35  <glx> it's in 10.3.9 SDK but not in previous ones
14:02:36  <TrueBrain> we already do take care of that ;)
14:03:25  <TrueBrain> glx: now that gestalt is a problem yes ..
14:03:54  <TrueBrain> glx: anyway, I guess the solution is VERY simple: don't call those signals for 10.3.9
14:04:02  <TrueBrain> let the game crash there without error
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14:05:15  <TrueBrain> btw, glx, if you really want it to compile on 10.3.9, you can check agains MAC_OS_X_VERSION_10_3 compile-time, and bypass those gestalt functions (as you know it is 10.3 or lower, and 10.2 we don't support anyway ;))
14:05:50  <Burns> i have a dedicated server and rcon access, how can i change the Plane speed factor with rcon?
14:06:12  <Burns> is there a list somewhere woth all these commandnames?
14:06:23  <Yexo> list_cmds
14:06:35  <Yexo> and list_settings for all settings
14:06:56  <dihedral> and and
14:06:57  <dihedral> :-P
14:07:04  <dihedral> i think it's plane_speed
14:07:06  <dihedral> not sure though
14:07:14  <Yexo> for the plane speed factor is "set  vehicle.plane_speed value"
14:07:33  <dihedral> what he says
14:07:43  <Burns> thx, the wiki doesnt list that much of these commands
14:08:53  *** wollollo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:08:54  <dihedral> then you can extend it - it's a wiki after all
14:09:12  *** |Japa| [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
14:09:13  <TrueBrain> I think it is an endless battle to keep the wiki up-to-date :p
14:09:29  <dihedral> odd
14:09:31  <dihedral> :-P
14:09:34  <Burns> true
14:09:34  <TrueBrain> damn, I made this lovely desert for myself, but forgot to buy the key ingredient ... and I REALLY don't feel like going out again ...
14:09:46  <Burns> but all rcon commands should be listed in some txt file atleast
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14:10:00  <dihedral> Burns, they are listed, list_cmds
14:10:04  <Yexo> Burns: as I already said, execute list_cmds
14:10:08  <dihedral> HAHA
14:10:16  * dihedral was faster ^^
14:10:19  <TrueBrain> hmm .. and it still is in a very liquid state .... I guess I fucked up my desert today ...
14:10:19  <Burns> in game is not the same as external .txt file
14:10:32  <dihedral> TrueBrain, gelantine?
14:10:41  <TrueBrain> Burns: so you want us to execute that command, pipe it to a text file, for every version of the game? :p
14:10:44  <dihedral> Burns, search the wiki :-P
14:10:44  <TrueBrain> seems a bit undoable ;)
14:10:53  <TrueBrain> dihedral: something like that ...
14:10:54  *** Mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:11:05  <dihedral> grab a straw and drink it TB :-P
14:11:06  <Ammler> Burns: adv. settings are in openttd.cfg
14:11:25  <TrueBrain> dihedral: well .. the idea is that you can put it on your plate and eat it with a fork
14:11:30  <petern> # don't stop me now
14:11:31  <Yexo> Burns:, from line 1708 onward you'll find all commands :p
14:11:33  <TrueBrain> I guess ... that is not what will be happening now :p
14:11:40  * petern blames dihedral for forcing him to put queen on
14:11:41  <dihedral> # i'm having such a good time
14:11:44  <Burns> haha
14:11:48  * TrueBrain hates petern for having Queen on
14:11:55  <petern> jealous, eh?
14:12:02  <TrueBrain> yup
14:12:03  <dihedral> Yexo, very nice :-)
14:12:35  <dihedral> petern, queen or 'the queen' ?
14:12:36  <dihedral> ^^
14:13:01  * dihedral kills his valgrind thingy
14:13:07  * TrueBrain dies
14:13:22  <TrueBrain> I hope dihedral never runs me again in a valgrind .. messy :(
14:14:22  <dihedral> sorry TB
14:14:29  <dihedral> i just wanted to check if you..... leak ^^
14:14:42  <dihedral> and.... where?
14:14:44  <dihedral> ehhh....
14:14:46  * dihedral hides
14:15:07  <TrueBrain> yeah .. hide .. please do :p
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14:15:19  <Darkvater> queen, yaay :)
14:15:35  <TrueBrain> oh no, not a Darkvater
14:15:46  <TrueBrain> did you contribute anything by now Darkvater? Or still floating around? :p :p
14:15:58  <Darkvater> I commanded dihedral to work on openttd
14:16:15  <TrueBrain> yeah. .. like that was such a good move :p
14:16:18  <TrueBrain> oh wait .. dihedral is here too .. :p :p
14:16:37  <Darkvater> :)
14:16:38  <dihedral> hey - at least i try
14:16:42  <dihedral> and i do my best at it
14:16:48  <TrueBrain> :) :)
14:16:48  <dihedral> and it has not been entirely useless ^^
14:16:50  * TrueBrain hugs dihedral
14:16:53  <dihedral> yeah yeah
14:17:01  <dihedral> not after knowing where you leak ^^
14:17:08  * dihedral chuckles
14:17:11  <TrueBrain> so stop running valgrind on me :(
14:17:22  <dihedral>
14:18:46  <TrueBrain> just 1897 bytes ... not bad :)
14:19:06  <TrueBrain> next time run a debug binary
14:19:09  <TrueBrain> gives more useful data
14:19:12  <TrueBrain> instead of: 'openttd'
14:19:14  <TrueBrain> :s
14:19:14  <SmatZ> those 4 mallocs are blitter, video driver, sound driver and such... it leaks only once per run
14:19:48  <SmatZ> I fixed that once, wanted to ask petern about it, but then I forgot :-p
14:20:05  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: most good ideas end like that :p
14:20:31  <Darkvater> so how does this chap up here leak 100MB+?
14:20:52  <TrueBrain> Darkvater: don't drink so much water!
14:21:11  <Zahl> oh hai
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14:21:15  <SmatZ> maybe it doesn't leak, it is just allocated and freed when program stops
14:21:21  <SmatZ> oh hallo thar, Zahl
14:21:36  <Darkvater> fuck
14:21:39  <Darkvater> dont' have a mousese
14:21:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15629 /trunk/src/script/squirrel_helper.hpp: -Fix (r15027): Validate strings that are passed from squirrel to the API, not strings passed from the API to squirrel.
14:21:42  <Darkvater> -ese
14:21:43  <Darkvater> +e
14:21:58  <Darkvater> but he said something like "alread +100MB since the last time"
14:22:16  <TrueBrain> don't believe everything you read
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14:24:00  <Alberth> dihedral: maybe you should code a command to query mem use by the pools
14:24:17  <Zahl> is it about possible memleaks?
14:24:26  <Darkvater> wasn't blathijs busy rewriting the mempools?
14:24:28  <dihedral> TBleaks
14:24:31  <TrueBrain> Darkvater: LOL!
14:24:39  <SmatZ> Darkvater: indeed, very busy :-)
14:24:40  <Darkvater> he started sometime before I stopped developing P:
14:24:49  <dihedral> hehe
14:25:01  <blathijs> Darkvater: No time to finish that yet
14:25:04  <dihedral> wisdom chased him
14:25:07  <dihedral> yet he ran faster
14:25:11  <TrueBrain> blathijs: you expect it ever to finish? :p
14:25:18  <blathijs> though most code is working, but haven't got around to really integrating them yet
14:25:22  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Not so much anymore
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14:25:46  <TrueBrain> blathijs: but then again .. no other person here ever had the guts to pick up where you left off and finish it .. :)
14:25:49  <blathijs> I think the pools have been changed a lot, and doesn't seem to be much demand for something updated
14:26:33  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Which shouldn't need too much guts anyway. There was some scary template code, granted, but most of the code is well documented
14:26:45  <Alberth> Zahl: we would rather like to discuss confirmed mem leaks instead
14:26:50  <TrueBrain> blathijs: very true; still I wouldn't want to touch it (again) :p
14:27:01  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:27:02  <blathijs> :-)
14:28:00  <Zahl> Alberth: :-D thats the hard part i guess
14:30:35  <dihedral> well, then i'll run another valgrind
14:30:40  <dihedral> with debug ^^
14:30:41  <Zahl> dihedral: i have a savegame from r15599 with no patch and no newgrf now. its the same thing there
14:30:47  <Zahl> with 500 trains
14:30:51  <dihedral> well done
14:31:01  <Zahl> woulds that help somehow?
14:31:08  <dihedral> you know - i met someone, he said he was keen to fix it
14:31:15  <Zahl> or can i provide forther information somehow
14:31:15  <dihedral> ^^
14:31:21  <dihedral>
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14:33:09  <TrueBrain> Zahl: how should we know if you are capable of such task? :p
14:33:18  <Zahl> :p
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14:38:11  <Burns> how can i get computer competitors in multiplayer?
14:38:34  <Burns> me and my friend want to pla a Hard game like in singelplayer but in the same company
14:38:36  <SmatZ> set ai_in_multiplayer 1
14:38:38  <SmatZ> start_ai
14:38:40  <SmatZ> for example
14:39:48  <petern> confirmed memleaks? I can confirm is, just don't know where ;p
14:39:52  <petern> *it
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14:40:34  <Alberth> Burns: in the advanced settings you can activate it
14:40:57  <Burns> it is activated, a computer player just joined i think...
14:41:10  <Burns> or some unknown monkey from the internet
14:42:28  <TrueBrain> Burns: check if there is (Player) behind the company name ;)
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14:42:59  <Burns> nope, it looks like an AI, but he doesnt build anything yet
14:43:38  <totalwormage> then you should be winning ;]
14:44:20  <dihedral> LOL
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14:53:02  <Burns> i play singelplayer now and the computer still dont build, and is called Unnamed, have i missed som setitngs?
14:53:16  <TrueBrain> Check under ? in AI Debug Window what it is doing
14:54:16  <Burns> where is the AI debug window?
14:54:23  <Burns> ah found it
14:54:24  <TrueBrain> Check under ? in AI Debug Window what it is doing
14:54:27  <TrueBrain> reading can be hard ;)
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14:55:00  <Burns> its blank
14:55:11  <TrueBrain> do you have an AI at all?
14:55:21  <Burns> It say DummyAI(v1)
14:55:27  <planetmaker> :D
14:55:28  <Burns> that is not good i think
14:55:28  <Yexo> in that case you don't have an AI
14:55:30  <TrueBrain> it mgiht be useful to download an AI ...
14:55:51  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: then the game gets too difficult...
14:55:55  <Burns> haha, i didnt know you had to download the seperatly
14:55:57  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: true :p
14:56:09  <TrueBrain> Burns: use the ingame content service
14:56:22  <planetmaker> Burns: consider them a special kind of newgrf (though I know it's technically wrong)
14:56:23  <Burns> me and my friend have playd sandbox with eachother all this time :)
14:56:36  <TrueBrain> and still not winning
14:56:52  <Yexo> Burns: was that window completely empty?
14:56:58  <Yexo> it should display some error lines
14:57:28  <Burns> nope, empty
14:57:44  <SmatZ> maybe memleaks... the address aren't accurate, I compiled with --enable-debug
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14:59:56  <Burns> any recomendation on AI?
15:00:04  <TrueBrain> AdmiralAI, NoCAB, ..
15:06:26  <petern> SmatZ: on a dedicated server, the first and second don't apply
15:06:38  <petern> my virtual size was over 3 GB, heh
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15:10:32  <planetmaker> he... DoCommands tend to be issued quite often...
15:10:43  <planetmaker> ... or we see a kinda boring game :P
15:11:02  <planetmaker> cu later folks
15:12:03  <Felicitus> hmm is there a way to tell a dedicated server not to echo back everything players write? or another way round: if a player types "!login", is it possible not to echo that back to other players?
15:13:21  <Yexo> Felicitus: tell the players to msg that in private to the server
15:13:35  <Yexo> via the client list you can sent private messages
15:13:39  <Felicitus> yes i know
15:14:18  <Belugas> [09:56] <TrueBrain> reading can be hard ;)  <--- guess on what i'm working?  I read that and it turned out like just "reading card"
15:14:21  <Yexo> then I don't get what you're asking
15:14:50  <Felicitus> Yexo: if you type !login on kurt's server, even if sent to all, the server captures that and doesnt send it to other players
15:15:08  <Yexo> you'll need to patch the server for that
15:15:12  <Felicitus> ok
15:16:35  <SmatZ> petern: true, the first two are from client, the third is from (dedicated) server... I wonder how you managed that :-x
15:18:48  <petern> same way as dihedral probably ;)
15:18:58  <SmatZ> :)
15:20:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15630 /trunk/src/ai/ai_scanner.cpp: -Fix (r15027): Make sure OpenTTD loads the dummy AI script when no other AI is available instead of a non-existing file.
15:20:54  <Yexo> now at least the dummy AI prints  a message in the ai debug panel
15:21:25  <Alberth> 'please upgrade me'?
15:21:52  <Yexo>     AILog.Error(\"No suitable AI found to load.\");                                             \n\
15:21:52  <Yexo>     AILog.Error(\"This AI is a dummy AI and won't do anything.\");                              \n\
15:21:52  <Yexo>     AILog.Error(\"Please add one or several AIs in your ai/ directory.\");                      \n\
15:22:19  <Alberth> right! you were one step ahead of me.
15:25:45  <Belugas> he.. waht to expect... he's a dev!
15:25:48  * Belugas hides...
15:26:25  <Alberth> Your selection procedure for new devs is paying off :D
15:26:47  <petern> yeah, those old devs suck
15:32:58  <Burns> Yexo: nice :)
15:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i take "devs that start with a B for 100" :p
15:35:05  <Burns> What is Belugas
15:35:34  <Burns> oh sorry that was the question
15:36:34  <Belugas> Belugas is an old sucking dev
15:37:22  <SmatZ> Belugas is depressed
15:37:27  * SmatZ presses Belugas
15:38:28  <Alberth> Belugas: no, you are not, you submitted the first half of my left-edge patch last night.
15:38:34  <Eddi|zuHause> well, actually i was aiming at another dev that starts with B
15:38:40  <thingwath> Belugas in the press. I should have taken the free newspaper today.
15:38:51  <SmatZ> :o)
15:39:14  <Darkvater> Eddi|zuHause: J?
15:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that ;)
15:39:49  <Darkvater> the bane of all that is good
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15:41:02  <Belugas> i'm not depressed
15:41:06  <Belugas> i'm busy
15:41:15  <Belugas> buzy starts with b
15:41:20  <Belugas> muhwawawawawa
15:41:48  <Darkvater> you're bepressed
15:41:49  <SmatZ> :)
15:41:50  <thingwath> we all start with b.
15:41:54  <SmatZ> :-D
15:42:16  <Belugas> BarkVater
15:42:18  <Belugas> youhou!!!
15:42:24  <Belugas> Woooof woooof
15:42:33  <Belugas> blx
15:42:35  <Belugas> mmm...
15:42:37  <Belugas> not funny
15:42:37  <SmatZ> :-D
15:42:44  <Belugas> bmatz
15:42:55  <Belugas> unprononciable!!
15:43:01  <Alberth> blx is b-resistent
15:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: that's normal, czech in general is unpronouncible :)
15:43:31  <Darkvater> babbbabeb
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15:44:11  <SmatZ> :op
15:44:13  <thingwath> bmatz, hm, that should not be that hard
15:44:41  <thingwath> blmatz or brmatz would be better, of course
15:44:43  <Eddi|zuHause> says the other czech person :p
15:45:02  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: as if bddi was any better :-p
15:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have the advantage of not being a dev :p
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15:50:31  <Belugas> [10:47] <Eddi|zuHause> well, i have the advantage of not being a dev :p  <--- yeah... you, you can play ;)
15:50:50  <SmatZ> :)
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16:15:11  <el_en>,1518,611816,00.html
16:16:20  <SmatZ> ouch
16:16:41  <el_en> aber ohne Passagiere
16:16:45  <el_en> english only
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16:31:57  <Alberth> not the best place to park a wagon
16:38:08  <petern> mmm, suboptimal
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16:57:49  <Belugas> betern... no... not a funny name either
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17:13:56  <planetmaker> bubidium :D
17:14:24  <planetmaker> the German connotation is quite funny :)
17:14:38  <planetmaker> kinda "small, cute boy"
17:16:02  <Belugas> blanetbaker
17:16:03  <SmatZ> :-D
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17:17:03  <el_en> BlatZ
17:17:44  <el_en> but wait, i've to an even funnier one:
17:17:48  <el_en> "bjarni"
17:17:53  <Belugas> bl_en
17:17:54  <Belugas> blen
17:18:16  <Belugas> Bruebrain
17:18:22  <Belugas> Brew Brain
17:18:24  <Belugas> lol!!!
17:18:30  <planetmaker> rofl
17:18:45  <el_en> Barkvater
17:19:10  <Belugas> [10:44] <@Belugas> BarkVater  <--- you're too late!
17:20:27  <Sacro> Budde?
17:20:38  <Ammler> "Reconfig done. Please re-execute make." <-- obsolete, as it happens automatically...
17:20:55  <SmatZ> not when you do configure --reconfigure
17:20:56  <frosch123> bs boday "b bay" ?
17:21:39  <planetmaker> bn, boday ns bot b-bay, but bome b-bour burrently
17:21:40  <Ammler> SmatZ: that's the same with ./configure
17:21:58  <planetmaker> next bour bill be b-bour :P
17:22:43  <Ammler> well dosn't hurt, just a note ;-)
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17:28:25  <Burns> how many minutes is a ingame year?
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17:29:28  <Ammler> not that hard to take the time self...
17:29:44  <Burns> it takes some time :)
17:30:20  <frosch123> @calc 74*0.03*365/60
17:30:20  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 13.505
17:30:28  <frosch123> around 13.5 minutes
17:31:16  <Burns> thx :)
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17:41:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <SmatZ> not when you do configure --reconfigure <- but wouldn't one expect a person who runs configure explicitly to intend to run make anyway?
17:43:08  <Belugas> maybe not
17:43:24  <Belugas> maybe they'll rather use anIDE to perform the make..
17:43:33  <Belugas> dunno.. just a though
17:43:42  <Belugas> that's waht i did with KDE recently
17:43:55  <SmatZ> :)
17:44:42  <Burns> 14m 3s 6ms during my simple test så i think 13.5minutes is correct :)
17:45:54  *** Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
17:47:50  <Belugas> ask, then you verify...
17:47:55  <Belugas> why?
17:47:58  <el_en> English Ånly!
17:49:01  <Burns> sry, i have big fingers, its hard to miss all my extra non english character :P
17:49:53  <Burns> Belugas: i started to take time first then i thought it might be faster to ask
17:50:51  <Belugas> silly me... of course... i should have though about that answer
17:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but there is no non-english character next to 'O'
17:51:34  <Burns> no but next to 'P'
17:51:42  <Belugas> mhh...
17:51:44  <Belugas> P...
17:51:46  <Belugas> good idea...
17:51:46  <Burns> and P is almost close to 'O'
17:51:48  <Belugas> PEEEEEE!
17:55:20  <Eddi|zuHause> muahhh... a 5 year dig!
17:55:31  <Eddi|zuHause> these newbies get worse every day...
17:56:43  * frosch123 votes for banning:
17:57:12  <frosch123> oh, eddi just seems to have read the same :)
17:58:04  <frosch123> (you are allowed to relocate 'just' to your liking)
17:59:24  <petern> gone
18:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i actually meant a different thread
18:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> <- this one
18:01:03  <SmatZ> hahahah is one funny person
18:01:57  <petern> gone
18:02:28  <SmatZ> :)
18:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> omg... did anyone look at the main forum view? this guy has posted in practically every forum...
18:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <- this is silly...
18:06:54  <SmatZ> indeed
18:07:13  <SmatZ> I guess it needs a "global admin" for that...
18:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> which brings me back to the fact that the ignore function is useless
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18:20:44  * frosch123 is quite amused, that nodualhead.nfo was downloaded 5 times more often than nodualhead.grf
18:21:03  <Belugas> they want to know how you did it :)
18:21:05  <Belugas> good thing
18:21:15  <Belugas> there are now 5 less morons on the planet
18:21:48  <Belugas> mmh...
18:21:49  <frosch123> oh, my english failed. I meant factor 5 more often
18:21:52  <Belugas> not garanteed
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18:48:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15631 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:48:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-03-06 18:47:57
18:48:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
18:48:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 33 changed by planetmaker (33)
18:48:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: greek - 14 fixed by hellis (14)
18:48:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 fixed by darkttd (1)
18:48:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 818 fixed by Gubius (818)
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19:02:05  <Ammler> saperlott, another 33 changes :-o
19:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> makes you wonder what junk we were having all this time :p
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19:04:43  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
19:04:58  <PeCeT_full> yelloh
19:05:37  <Nite_Owl> Hello PeCeT_full
19:06:16  <Burns> when i compile openttd my self for win32 its asking for mgwz.dll, any one know how to get around this?
19:06:49  <Burns> its working on hte computer i compiled on that have cygwin and all libs on it but not on a plain other computer without devkits
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19:10:19  <Belugas> Burns, i never needd that dll.  what google says about it?
19:11:20  <Burns> it something with mingw, there should be som flag to compile with included support or something
19:12:01  <Burns> but i cant find the flag :(
19:13:39  <Rubidium> --enable-static ?
19:13:57  <Rubidium> or not add --disable-static
19:14:32  <Burns> i did that... got other ugly error before i did
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19:20:31  <Burns> hmm, that error was with --disable-static, with --enable-static i get lots of libz errors
19:23:25  <Rubidium> then you might be missing libz.a
19:24:27  <Burns> i check...
19:25:44  <Rubidium> the nightlies that are built with mingw are built with --enable-static
19:26:20  <Burns> i find zlib, but not libz is it the same or is it diffrent libs?
19:26:46  <Rubidium> it's the same, but there must be a libz.a
19:26:56  <Rubidium> did you follow the guideline on the wiki?
19:28:54  <Burns> yes, and i found this now...
19:29:27  <Burns> but with disable static the mgwz.dll error appears on normal computers
19:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the easy solution is: just put the .dll next to the .exe
19:32:30  <Burns> then i want more dlls from cygwin :(
19:32:41  <Burns> i try to repair the zlib somehow
19:33:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15632 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: allow downloading scenarios and heightmaps via bananas.
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19:40:18  <el_en> let's assume
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19:59:29  <el_en> ok, let's stop now.
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20:01:11  <ciclone> hi guys :D
20:01:19  <Yexo> hello ciclone
20:01:35  <Paul2> hi guys. Just a quicky...very roughly whats the min spec for a dedicated server? I have seen some people quote PIII on forum and it really that much?
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20:02:22  <el_en> it must depend on the map sizes you intend to use.
20:02:44  <ciclone> guys just a question: i download today the last nightly (r15631), but i can't found the old signals
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20:03:47  <Yexo> Paul2: before starting just another random server, please think about something unique your server has, ie why should users play on your server and not on another?
20:03:55  <Yexo> ciclone: what old signals, the semaphores?
20:04:29  <ciclone> this Yexo :
20:05:00  <ciclone> the "path signal" and the "one-way path signal"
20:05:03  <Yexo> ah, pbs signals, though you can hardly call them 'old'
20:05:12  <ciclone> yes sry :D
20:05:13  <ciclone> ehehehhe
20:05:24  <ciclone> (bad english :D )
20:05:58  <Yexo> how do you mean you can't find them anymore? Can you still open the signal gui?
20:07:32  <ciclone> yexo yes the signal gui is opened.. but i resolve.. i restart the game :D
20:07:36  <ciclone> sry :
20:07:37  <ciclone> :D
20:07:45  *** Mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:07:53  <Yexo> then you most likely started o.6.3 by accident or something
20:07:54  *** lolman [~lolman@static-87-102-80-68.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:08:04  <Yexo> anyway, nice it's solved again :)
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20:10:47  <ciclone> aaajjaajaj yes yexo i accidentaly start 0.6.3 :P
20:29:33  <Paul2> el_en / Yexo : thanks for the reply sorry was just reading forum. It's an internal server mostly for a university/community type arrangement
20:29:51  <Paul2> (and hence buying the latest blade server is probably unlikely)
20:30:15  <Yexo> ah, in that case, any hardware would probably do for 256x256 maps
20:30:58  <Yexo> if you want to play 1024x1024 (or bigger) maps, or maps with lots ( > 500) trains, or a lot of ships (> 50), you should just try out what works
20:32:18  <Yexo> I wonder why there still is a 0.5.2 server online, and even 2 clients are playing on it
20:32:35  <Yexo> and another 2 clients are playing on another 0.5.3 server
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20:42:15  <Paul2> Yexo: cheers :) I might have a go and see :)
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20:49:08  <Rubidium> Yexo: (some) people aren't very upgrady
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20:50:29  <Rubidium> e.g. about 30% of IE users going to our website use < 7.0
20:50:57  <frosch123> but I bet those running "0.6.0-beta3" think it is a newer and better version than 0.6.3
20:51:12  <Rubidium> and only 5
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20:51:28  <Rubidium> and only 5-10% of the firefox users seems to be using the latest version
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21:07:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15633 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r15632): apparently there are several conflicting definitions of the arguments / return values of strrchr.
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21:16:33  <ciclone> have to go, bye bye :D
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21:32:58  <glx> <@Rubidium> and only 5-10% of the firefox users seems to be using the latest version <-- but FF tends to upgrade itself (not from v2 to v3 though)
21:35:44  <Eddi|zuHause> # What if I say I'm not like the others?
21:35:46  <Eddi|zuHause> # What if I say I'm not just another
21:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> # one of your plays. You're the pretender
21:35:49  <Eddi|zuHause> # What if I say that I'll never surrender?
21:36:11  * frosch123 fails to quote vangelis
21:36:39  <el_en> # Move along children, you're holding up the line.
21:36:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, there are things you cannot quote ;)
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21:38:13  <Rubidium> frosch123: #
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21:39:19  <frosch123> # :)
21:40:11  <Eddi|zuHause> vangelis. they have the song with the drum breaks where no two are the same, right?
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21:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or am i thinking of something different?
21:40:41  <frosch123> don't know, but the fan of my graphicscard fits in...
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21:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe ;)
21:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm probably thinking of a different song
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21:43:33  <frosch123> maybe you meant the keyboard advertisement clip (linked in the offtopic) showing a orchestra, where everyone only plays a single sample
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21:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the what?
21:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i probably have not seen that one
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21:47:53  <frosch123> <- that one
21:52:41  <frosch123> you see how good my memory was :p
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22:03:23  <Belugas> W   E   E  K        E   N   D  !
22:03:39  <Belugas> The old guard wishes you fun and pleasure !
22:03:53  <frosch123> have fun in your weekend job :p
22:04:03  * |Japa| bows to Belugas in a most courtly manner
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22:10:22  <SpComb> my weekend is going to be even more exhausting than my week
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22:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, i have never seen that one, and it has nothing to do with what i was thinking of
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22:29:52  <Powerek38> Hi, where can I report bugs (I mean, the game crashes and I don't know why)?
22:31:14  <Rubidium> Powerek38: read the topic (title) of this channel and make an educated guess ;)
22:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it IS kind of tricky to understand the topic for an uninitiated person ;)
22:32:39  <Powerek38> well, it is, especially if you're not a very educated person :)
22:32:55  <Yexo> it's :)
22:33:12  <Yexo> what were you doing when the game crashed?
22:33:18  <Yexo> maybe it's already known
22:34:05  <Powerek38> Yexo: nothing special, just playing... basically, it reaches a certain moment (a date) and crashes... I've tried on several nightlies including today's, but still the same
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22:34:29  <Yexo> in that case please make a bug report, with attached crash.cmp/log/sav
22:35:07  <Powerek38> Yexo: but you need to register at that forum beforehand, don't you?
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22:35:18  <Yexo> Powerek38: yes
22:35:26  <Yexo> and it's not a forum but a bugtracker
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23:10:44  <Everest> I would like to update from 6.3 to 7beta1
23:10:57  <Everest> can some1 help me?
23:11:08  *** stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
23:11:11  <Aali> step 1: download 0.7beta1
23:11:16  <Everest> should I use installer or binaries>?
23:11:25  <Aali> step 2: unpack/install 0.7beta1
23:11:37  <Aali> step 3: play 0.7beta1
23:11:47  <Rubidium> Everest: use the installer
23:11:48  <Sacro> Everest: yes
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23:12:05  <Everest> ok
23:12:25  <Everest> it's first time I install a beta version
23:12:50  <Everest> is there something else I should do, except installing?
23:13:07  <Sacro> run it
23:13:21  <Everest> I will try it now
23:13:30  <Rubidium> backup
23:13:45  <Rubidium> but that should be standard procedure
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23:15:17  <Everest> I will delete newGRF  files cuz I red this version can download them, right?
23:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:15:47  <Eddi|zuHause> a) you can reuse all old newgrf files
23:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> b) not all newgrf files are available through online download
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23:16:55  <Everest> I see
23:17:02  <Everest> thanx for that
23:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> c) what part of "back up" do you associate with "delete"?
23:18:03  <Everest> will I loose my settings?
23:18:27  <Yexo> you should not, but backup openttd.cfg to be sure
23:18:56  <Prof_Frink> Everest: Not unless you print them out, attach them to an arrow and shoot it from a bow.
23:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot the fire part ;)
23:20:21  <Everest> ahh
23:21:17  <Everest> I've downloaded and will install later cuz I have some programs running (should this affect my install?)
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23:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> usually not
23:21:59  <Everest> I don't want to restart
23:22:09  <Aali> as long as you're not running openttd from the very directory you're installing to
23:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have the wrong operating system ;)
23:22:23  <Aali> and you dont have to restart unless you're running win9x or something
23:22:26  <Prof_Frink> Everest: openttd was written by semi-competent people. YOu shouldn't have to restart.
23:22:49  <Everest> great
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23:24:39  <Everest> Installed, I'm going in - seeya
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