Log for #openttd on 5th June 2009:
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05:41:15  <dihedral> morning
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05:46:15  <andythenorth> morning
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07:00:38  <dihedral> cvs sucks
07:06:05  <z-MaTRiX> hi why?
07:06:11  <Alberth> there is no such thing as an ideal VCS
07:06:28  <dihedral> no - does not mean one cannot suck more than another
07:07:04  <dihedral> and eh... yes - i think there is such a thing as ideal - not perfect though :-P
07:07:19  <z-MaTRiX> its opensource...
07:08:25  <dihedral> z-MaTRiX, still sucks ^^
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07:10:16  <Alberth> maybe you should use a different work flow (and/or VCS :p )
07:10:32  <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: not worth the trouble, there are many alternatives that kind of work.
07:10:53  <z-MaTRiX> sure, you can write one too
07:11:42  <Alberth> no thank you, svn and hg are good enough for me :)
07:12:49  <dihedral> i am converting from cvs to svn
07:13:31  <Alberth> btw changing cvs is non-trivial, iirc the devs are heavily opposed to many changes. So much that OpenBSD started writing a new one, and svn got born.
07:13:48  <Alberth> converting should solve some of the problems :)
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07:24:03  <dihedral> converting IS my problem :-P
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07:25:40  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: alberth * r16519 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Add: Prevent hiding of a window titlebar behind the status bar.
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07:26:06  <Alberth> people overestimate the value of history
07:26:57  <planetmaker> moin.
07:27:03  <planetmaker> Alberth, that was irony, was it?
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07:29:30  <Alberth> not really, how often do you lookup a change longer ago than say, 1 month?
07:29:52  <Rubidium> quite often actually
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07:30:39  <Rubidium> although the hg/git repositories don't go further back than r<there where we went to c++> IIRC
07:31:19  <Rubidium> oh, that was 'only' before the svn reimport
07:33:17  <dihedral> Alberth, it's a company - the history here is quite important ;-)
07:33:38  <planetmaker> Alberth, quite often here, too
07:34:00  <dihedral> after the conversion i have 25800 revs :-D
07:34:07  <dihedral> the entire process takes me about 8 hours
07:34:19  <dihedral> and that is just one of the projects :-P
07:34:23  <Alberth> that's a lot of coffee :)
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07:34:43  <planetmaker> when I try to pach things, or especially update older patches, it's THE thing to do to look through the history of what was done in order to understand the necessary modifications.
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07:40:50  <dihedral> Alberth, it's even more when you think that i am still just preparing :-P
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07:47:32  <Alberth> planetmaker: good to hear I don't write the commit messages for nothing :p
07:50:21  <planetmaker> Alberth, you definitely don't. I kinda use the hg log (the web one) for regular lecture :)
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07:52:20  <Alberth> I tend to prefer 'hg view'. Going back more than a few revisions with the hg web-interface is an art I have not yet mastered.
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07:55:02  <Alberth> good luck with the conversion, see you all
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09:41:10  <fonsinchen> Are those debug messages documented anywhere? What is the usual way to increase the debug level, for example for "misc"? Of course I can just set it in my code, but I guess that's not how it's intended to be done. I've been wondering about this for a long time ...
09:47:27  <petern> ...
09:47:29  <petern> from the console
09:47:33  <petern> or from the command line
09:49:35  <petern> grrr, idiots
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10:03:38  <Kage_Dragon> Finally got my first real patch working... Any C++ gurus want to critique it? :D
10:05:10  <guru3> what's it a patch of?
10:05:30  <guru3> *for
10:05:30  <Kage_Dragon> Filter by Trainset in the Build window
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10:07:19  <Kage_Dragon>
10:08:06  * guru3 was just curious
10:08:21  <guru3> i'm not that great at c++, just anyline with 'guru
10:08:24  <guru3> in it pings me
10:08:34  <Kage_Dragon> hehe
10:08:39  * guru3 fades back into obscurity
10:08:59  <Kage_Dragon> Not that I"m great at c++  either
10:10:19  <guru3> i specialize in php and obscure hacks
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10:55:13  <dihedral> Kage_Dragon, you are finished ey?
10:55:15  <dihedral> / TODO-> Set num_of_loaded_grfs to # of loaded GRFS
10:55:17  <dihedral> :-P
10:55:58  <dihedral> int trainset_filter_criteria;           ///< Selected Trainset filter <- you indented with 'tab'
10:56:02  <dihedral> sorry - alligend
10:56:52  <dihedral> empty lines should not be indented
10:57:07  <dihedral> at all ;-)
10:58:12  <dihedral> newgrf_names[trainset_filter_items] = "All"; <- hard coded string, use a string id instead so it's translateable
10:59:01  <dihedral> +               for (int i = 0; i < (num_of_loaded_grfs + 3); i++){
10:59:01  <dihedral> +                   exists = false;
10:59:01  <dihedral> +                   if (this->newgrf_names[i] == grf_name){
10:59:01  <dihedral> +                       exists = true;
10:59:01  <dihedral> +                       break;
10:59:02  <dihedral> +                   }
10:59:03  <dihedral> +               }
10:59:10  <dihedral> you can set exists to false outside the for loop
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11:00:08  <dihedral> +           if (trainset_filter_criteria == 0){ //No Set Filter <- move the comment above the if statement?
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11:00:28  <dihedral> and use /* */ comments
11:01:03  <dihedral> or move the comment inside the if block
11:01:31  <dihedral> STR_TRAINSET_FILTER_DROPDOWN                                   :{BLACK}{2:RAW_STRING} <- not properly aligned
11:01:47  <dihedral> +
11:01:47  <dihedral> +
11:01:47  <dihedral>  ########### For showing numbers in widgets
11:01:54  <petern> gah, i need a decent audio interface :S
11:01:54  <dihedral> you dont need those two extra lines ^^
11:02:26  <dihedral> +### Trainset Filter <- match number of # with the other comments you find in that file
11:02:40  <dihedral> Kage_Dragon, that's all i can tell you right now :-D
11:04:11  <Kage_Dragon> Thanks dihedral...
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11:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> <dihedral> you can set exists to false outside the for loop <- a decent compiler should be able to figure that out on its own
11:46:44  <dihedral> still does not mean you can be sloppy only because you have a decent compiler :-P
11:47:17  <dihedral> else nobody would care for coding style in general :-P
11:47:34  <dihedral> or nobody would care what kind of comments you use
11:47:52  <dihedral> or not indenting empty lines
11:47:55  <dihedral> the compile handles it
11:47:56  <dihedral> :-P
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11:48:06  <Leanden> evening all
11:51:20  <Leanden> nevermind
11:51:21  <planetmaker> good night
11:51:27  <Leanden> lol hey planet
11:51:47  <planetmaker> :)
11:52:02  <Leanden> hows tricks?
11:53:28  <planetmaker> hu?
11:53:53  <Leanden> hows things
11:54:15  <planetmaker> as usual :P
11:54:54  <Leanden> busy?? :p
11:55:02  <planetmaker> yup
11:55:38  <Leanden> which GRF sets are you working on atm?
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11:58:59  <planetmaker> opengfx + 2cctrainset
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12:16:06  <Leanden> nice
12:18:31  <Leanden> *chases tumbleweed*
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12:50:31  <fonsinchen> I'm running openttd in valgrind and I have an interesting message. It seems there is some memory management problem in the 8bpp blitter:
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12:58:50  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: that's odd. It would imply that 'm' is uninitialised, which would me it would be reading out of bounds of the remap 'array' which it should warn about
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12:59:30  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: what (New)GRFs are you using? Sounds to me that a font is using the wrong indices or so
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13:05:47  <Belugas> helloo
13:06:40  <fonsinchen> Actually that's from cargodist and I'm using this savegame: ... I'll check the newgrfs ...
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13:11:17  <fonsinchen> newgrfs:
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13:16:26  <fonsinchen> Ah, and I'm using opengfx.
13:21:02  <Ammler> 404
13:29:03  <Belugas> 101
13:29:05  <Belugas> 5
13:29:08  <Belugas> ;)
13:30:15  <Ammler> :-)
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13:34:56  <planetmaker> fonsinchen, you should update your 2cc train set :)
13:36:23  <fonsinchen> I have various version of various trainsets there. I think it picks the version which was last used in the save game, doesn't it?
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13:36:47  <fonsinchen> And the savegame is not mine; I'm just trying to find out why it takes 300MB of RAM.
13:40:27  <planetmaker> fonsinchen, yes, it *should* prefer the one with the matching md5sum - I think.
13:40:54  <planetmaker> not sure though wether it or only the grfID is stored. I guess both.
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13:43:27  <dragonhorseboy> any of you have any suggestion on a passenger station grf? (just anything to replace that boring original single station tile)  it'll be for a urban network
13:43:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, both are stored
13:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i always use MB's newstations
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13:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> they are the most flexibly interchangable station tiles
13:44:25  <dragonhorseboy> hm ok I'll get that ty
13:44:50  <dragonhorseboy> any idea if there're any decent tram sets yet or everything is still in early teaser stages yet?
13:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there are more than that
13:45:08  <dragonhorseboy> (been some time I last recall trying to collect all of them to try them out for myself)
13:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you can load as many station sets as you like
13:45:14  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, get egrvs from bananas
13:45:22  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can try out different combinations
13:45:41  <dragonhorseboy> egrvs...
13:45:42  <planetmaker> I usually load most station sets I do have :P
13:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be several suitible tram grfs
13:45:47  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, vehicles...
13:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the germanrv set looks promising
13:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but the trucks are unfinished
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13:48:27  <dragonhorseboy> this the egrv one right?
13:50:58  <planetmaker> <-- I don't get quite why that shall be the intended behaviour
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13:52:12  <Yexo> it's consistent: building a statino next to another fails without ctrl
13:52:40  <andythenorth> planetmaker: good points about the fishing beach
13:54:45  <dragonhorseboy> hmm ok so i got town buildings, some possible trams, planes, stations, new roads .. hmm .. I just need to decide which trainsets to default to :p
13:54:54  <planetmaker> :P sorry for the comparison with a viper bay :)
13:54:59  <dragonhorseboy> (going use lv3.5-buses for rvs anyway)
13:56:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth, in principle, I like the idea though a lot :)
13:56:33  <Belugas> i don't
13:56:36  <andythenorth> maybe in a later version
13:56:37  <Belugas> what idea?
13:57:04  <planetmaker> Belugas, beach graphics in the FIRS industry set.
13:57:21  <planetmaker> (as part of an industry - whatever it may be)
13:57:21  <dragonhorseboy> FIRS? is that recent?
13:57:39  <dragonhorseboy> remind me how behind I must be on grf development since a few months ago :S
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13:58:38  <Belugas> you're a lot behind on grf development seince a few months ago
13:58:47  <Belugas> i love beaches
13:59:02  <Belugas> even more when i can see them from the bottom of the sea
13:59:11  <Belugas> well...
13:59:15  <Belugas> not THAT deep...
13:59:20  <dragonhorseboy> at least dbsetxl still hasn't gotten any updates yet
13:59:26  <dragonhorseboy> belugas :P
14:00:21  <dragonhorseboy> oh that explains it.. FIRS isn't even in the ttdx sections
14:00:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth, oh, I didn't see your final sand pit version. That looks awesome! :)
14:00:27  <Belugas> what?  you ask for it and you complain when we give you waht you want??
14:00:30  <Belugas> pffff.... users...
14:01:54  <dragonhorseboy> hm these graphics don't look bad just I think some of these buildings seem to use a bit too much land
14:02:26  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: the dbset is getting plenty of updates... the problem is, they don't get released
14:02:45  <dragonhorseboy> eddi..yeah :/
14:03:13  <dragonhorseboy> I kinda would had liked to see what kind of new rolling stock were added in for any possible v0.9 grf
14:03:16  <dragonhorseboy> but oh well
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14:04:25  <andythenorth> what?  Users ask for much bigger industries, and then complain when we give them what they want?
14:04:56  <andythenorth> pfffff
14:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> who complained where?
14:05:10  <dragonhorseboy> andy..not everyone play with industry:low and map:HUGE ;)
14:05:21  <dragonhorseboy> but then go figure
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14:05:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd sometimes like to have industries:even lower
14:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> primary industries like farms need to be plenty, mines should be plenty but concentrated, secondary industries should be sparse
14:07:56  <Belugas> make a grf :)
14:08:02  <Belugas> or a scenario
14:08:43  <dragonhorseboy> eddi thats alak: scenario editor
14:08:49  <dragonhorseboy> place as little or many as you please
14:08:49  <dragonhorseboy> :)
14:09:05  <dragonhorseboy> heh belugas seem we share the same answer :p
14:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> do you have any idea what amount of time is needed to fill a scenario by hand?
14:09:37  <Ammler> doesn't ECS do that?
14:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> ECS is way too overloaded
14:10:02  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I think I do :)
14:10:04  <planetmaker> A lot
14:10:48  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: ever tried to play with only one vector?
14:11:45  <Ammler> e.g. basic only.
14:13:10  <Belugas> do you have any idea what amount of time is needed to think about how to do what you require without fucking up the whole industry grf base, to design a decent gui to provide necessary configuration, to actually code the whole freaking thing?
14:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i tried PBI and it felt way more natural
14:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: i'm pretty sure the stuff i said is possible to do via grf
14:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> PBI already modifies the primary to secondary ratio, afaik
14:15:45  <Belugas> yup -> [10:11] <@Belugas> make a grf :)
14:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and firs' survey stuff might be the way to achieve clustering of mine regions
14:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but the grfs don't come overnight either ;)
14:16:36  <dragonhorseboy> who's site was that that had the tunnel portal and rail depot replacement altogether?
14:16:53  <andythenorth> Is it some kind of bizarre coincidence that half of our studio is looking at Kanban versus Scrum today?
14:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> what?
14:17:26  <andythenorth> never mind
14:18:13  * Belugas was looking at the road, yesterday evening. Picked up his bottles of air for the weekend
14:18:25  <Belugas> that's the kind of evening i love!
14:18:27  <Ammler> PBI, the grf where also serviced industries disapear, just nobody knows, why :-)
14:18:53  <planetmaker> Ammler, it's so... realistic ;)
14:19:11  <Ammler> hehe, Eddi|zuHause uses another word for ;-)
14:19:37  <planetmaker> yeah :P It's safer.
14:20:01  <dragonhorseboy> oh doh thats funny.. somehow seeing your name jogged my memory ammler :p
14:20:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: your suggestions could be done with grf more or less.  It's not even hard to code - just time consuming.  But it would be a right pain in the arse to playtest and make reliable.
14:20:38  <andythenorth> And I can forsee it might get stuck in a deadlock or something.   Coding conditional logic in nfo is for the brave
14:20:45  <Ammler> as I said, ECS does that.
14:21:08  <Ammler> (at least, partially)
14:21:58  <dragonhorseboy> oh no that was a different grf :/
14:22:07  <dragonhorseboy> meh where is that silly site with the tunnels
14:24:19  <dragonhorseboy> hm guess I'll just use the czset roads
14:24:34  <Eddi|zuHause> is it possible you meant ameecher instead of ammler?
14:24:45  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: he mostly does ;-)
14:25:15  <dragonhorseboy> heh eddi funny how memory sometimes runs together and yeah thats finally just what i was looking for :D
14:25:27  <dragonhorseboy> hmm uk doubledeck buses too...
14:25:54  <andythenorth> Am I going nuts or did someone have a URL to henrik kniberg somewhere above, or is my mac fucked?
14:26:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you are most likely going nuts, but that does not necessarily exclude the other alternatives :p
14:27:18  <dragonhorseboy> hehehe
14:27:26  <dragonhorseboy> brb to download and sort out a bunch of grfs already
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14:36:36  <dragonhorseboy> hmm any suggestion on which bridge grf sets to try?
14:36:48  <dragonhorseboy> need to be able to comply with 240km/h trains ;)
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14:38:10  <Rubidium> tto?
14:38:37  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, none at all?
14:39:03  <Rubidium> ->
14:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda like the bridge renewal
14:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like newbridges
14:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> because it has too many "designer" bridges
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14:45:59  <Rubidium> does it have a wooden designer bridge?
14:46:35  <_ln> off-topicish: is there a NATO standard about beards?
14:47:24  <dragonhorseboy> this eddi?
14:51:32  <planetmaker> it's a nice one, yes
14:51:43  <planetmaker> (though I'm not Eddi :P )
14:52:12  <[wito]> _ln: I'm going to go right ahead and guess that beards are fair game, as long as your hair (or beard) doesn't touch your collar
14:52:18  <[wito]> but that's just an educated guess
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14:54:16  <dragonhorseboy> am I correct that you only can use one town name list at a time or can you mix two together?
14:54:37  <Rubidium> yup
14:54:58  <dragonhorseboy> rubidium..?
14:55:37  <planetmaker> hehe :)
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14:57:54  <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy: am I correct that you can only drink one soft drink at a time or can you mix two together?
14:58:26  <dragonhorseboy> two
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14:59:11  <KUDr> hello
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14:59:28  <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy: you can only drink one soft drink at a time, but when you mix them you create another soft drink which you can drink
15:00:35  <Rubidium> hi KUDr
15:00:40  <KUDr> hi
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15:10:51  <_ln> [wito]: thanks
15:11:24  <[wito]> _ln: Like I said, that's a guess, but I think I've seen pictures of NATO officers with beards
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15:15:08  <dragonhorseboy> urghh almost done with grfs..then to try a quick test map soon :S
15:15:12  <bbf> hi there... are the any developers around ?
15:15:51  <bbf> I'm coding something for OTTD, but I wanted to ask if it would be allowed to be merged into the official tree later on
15:16:44  <Yexo> that depends on a lot of things:
15:16:58  <Yexo> 1. (most important): do we think it fits with the rest of the game
15:17:10  <Yexo> 2. Does the patch follow code style
15:17:38  <Yexo> 3. Can you convince a developer to spend time reading your patch (the larger the patch, the harder this is)
15:17:53  <Yexo> so what are you coding?
15:17:55  <bbf> It adds some new dependencies... so, it's kind of big
15:18:21  <bbf> well, I really dislike the fact that some servers are running with goals (patched stuff)
15:18:58  <Yexo> you dislike the fact that some servers run with goals or do you dislike that not all servers run with goals?
15:19:04  <bbf> so what I'm trying to achieve is a system like that for OTTD
15:19:26  <bbf> I dislike that fact that they have it, and that's not part of the official
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15:19:41  <bbf> so every other server looks boring without it
15:19:54  <Zuu> but if it become a part of the official it become okay?
15:20:00  <bbf> and just look at the player count.... everyone hangs around there
15:20:11  <bbf> I don't know
15:20:26  <bbf> I think they hardcoded most stuff (guess)
15:20:41  <Yexo> I think it's not just the fact that those servers have goals, but the fact that they have active admins
15:20:54  <bbf> have they suggested merging their changes to the official tree ?
15:21:26  <Yexo> the only server I can think of is kurts goalserver, and that one stopped with the release of 0.7.0
15:21:31  <Yexo> he never released any patch, so no
15:21:48  <bbf> there are new servers with goals now, not kurt's
15:21:55  <Yexo> there was the "openttd hard goal" project some time ago, but their site seems to be down
15:21:59  <bbf> well anyways
15:22:05  <Zuu> Hasn't mega some kind of goal patch? hmm don't remember.
15:22:18  <Yexo> wasn't that ohg?
15:22:40  <bbf> what I'm doing is, adding the ability to script stuff on the server side
15:22:51  <bbf> like an AI, but without a company
15:22:57  <Zuu> I don't know was long time ago I read about it. Havn't been around the last one or two months much.
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15:23:28  <bbf> initially I wanted to keep Squirrel as the language, but for now, I just decided to do it in LUA
15:24:11  <bbf> I'm still crawling thru the ottd source code to find the best spots to hook it
15:24:32  <bbf> but I can already execute simple scripts
15:24:56  <bbf> would that be a good addition to the official tree ?
15:25:04  <Zuu> Now I'm not Yexo but I guess it would increase the merge chances if you are able ot use squirrel for it. Any specific reasons for not using Squirrel?
15:25:21  <Yexo> that's indeed correct
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15:25:29  <bbf> yeah, I thought so
15:25:43  <Yexo> I (personally, no idea about other devs) don't like the idea of adding another scripting language
15:25:54  <bbf> but it was a matter of personal preference, and because it's easier to do the bindings
15:25:56  <Yexo> as long as it's completely optional, it may still have a chance though
15:26:15  <Yexo> bbf: did you look at how NoAI does the bindings?
15:26:21  <bbf> yeah, I did
15:26:23  <Yexo> they're generated automatically from the header files
15:27:04  <Zuu> Allthough the binaries compiled by the OpenTTD server probably will have it included and then have a perhaps 10-20% increase in compile time.
15:27:14  <Zuu> Squirrel added a 30% or so I recall.
15:27:33  <glx> including many bugs
15:27:34  <Yexo> it was not squirrel, more all the noai code (the complete api is a lot of code)
15:27:55  <bbf> is there any reason why you guys choose Squirrel instead of the other scripting languages ?
15:28:03  <Yexo> of course
15:28:05  <bbf> well, ofc there's a reason
15:28:06  <glx> looks a lot like C/C++
15:28:29  <Yexo> we wanted class support, and I think squirrel was the only one at that time with proper support for classes (and other functionality we needed)
15:29:08  <Yexo> but I wasn't here when the choice was made, so glx may have a better answer
15:29:15  <bbf> well, I like LUA because it's really mature already... it has been used in a lot of other games...
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15:29:29  <bbf> and lot of people already know how to code in it
15:29:49  <bbf> also because it's really fast
15:31:20  <bbf> well... I'm coding this feature like this... and I'll provide the changes if you guys are interested
15:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> if you really learned how to program, the language does not matter
15:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the features and the libraries matter
15:32:10  <glx> Squirrel is inspired by languages like Python,Javascript and expecially Lua(The API is very similar and the table code is based on the Lua one)
15:32:31  <glx> if you know lua you know squirrel :)
15:32:56  <bbf> glx> I haven't really played that much with Squirrel
15:33:35  <Yexo> <bbf> but I can already execute simple scripts <- can you upload a patch somewhere so we can see how much new code is needed for lua?
15:34:12  <bbf> well... the code is pretty small... the dependencies are not
15:34:27  <Yexo> just the diff without lua then :p
15:34:41  <glx> we try to reduce external dependencies
15:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> <_ln> off-topicish: is there a NATO standard about beards? <- the standards i learned were "have a full beard, or shave every day, grow beards only during holidays" and "it may not interfere with the operation of a gas mask"
15:34:56  <bbf> since I wanted it to be fast to prototype, I used: Lua, LuaBind, and LuaBind requires Boost
15:35:23  <glx> boost is very huge
15:35:35  <bbf> yup, I knew you guyst wouldn't like that :)
15:35:47  <glx> and think about msvc users
15:35:56  <bbf> I'm on msvc
15:36:03  <bbf> but the latest
15:36:16  <bbf> so it doesn't freakout on the templates
15:36:21  <glx> many have already problems to follow the steps to compile current code
15:36:54  <glx> even when we provide required libs in a package
15:37:20  <bbf> btw, do you have any developers that are using msvc and working with the AI ?
15:37:40  <Yexo> yes
15:37:44  <Yexo> I am :)
15:37:49  <bbf> oh great :)
15:38:01  <bbf> do you use MSYS or smth to update the bindings ?
15:38:11  <Yexo> but then I have a cygwin installation which I use for svn/running the squirrel_export scripts
15:38:19  <bbf> aha :)
15:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really understand the reasons to introduce another scripting language when there already is one...
15:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you replace the existing one with anotherone which provides backwards compatibility
15:39:51  <Yexo> which would be a very good idea, since squirrel has many bugs ;)
15:40:04  <glx> bbf: I never ported squirrel_export to vbs :)
15:40:34  <bbf> as I said, I only did it in LUA because I know it's good, and I could do it fast
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15:40:48  <bbf> it took me 3 hours to get to the current state
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15:41:06  <Yexo> bbf: again, if you can show us a diff we can see how much work it would be to convert to squirrel, and how intrusive your code is
15:41:23  <bbf> sure, just a sec
15:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: but didn't TrueBrain intend to do that with NAIL?
15:42:11  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: yes :)
15:42:36  <Yexo> but NAIL is "another scripting language" that "provides backwards compatibility", so it falls in your description :)
15:43:18  <glx> IIRC lua doesn't have classes
15:43:24  <Yexo> and it has a different syntax
15:43:35  <Yexo> which at this point is important
15:43:40  <bbf> yeah, it much more simple
15:43:54  <glx> AI needs classes
15:43:59  <bbf> it has objects tho
15:44:03  <glx> (either for internal work)
15:44:05  <Zuu> But would give me and other AI writers lot of work to convert the code for Lua.
15:44:14  <Zuu> (AI code)
15:44:34  <Yexo> Zuu: that's why we won't switch unless the new language is at least mostly compatible
15:44:36  <bbf> hey... I'm not suggesting we replace the current AI :) don't raise the pitchforks yet
15:44:56  <Zuu> Yexo: I know you wouldn't just to tell bbf. :)
15:44:57  * Chruker semi-lowers his
15:45:35  <Yexo> Chruker: you got aquaducts to work with your AI?
15:46:19  <Chruker> mostly
15:46:49  <Chruker> current bug is building the aquaduct over the goal tile :-)
15:48:23  <bbf> well, this code is hacked up together:
15:48:45  <bbf> it's very simple, and just exports the "error" function
15:49:20  <bbf> and as you can notice, I copied and modified existing files
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15:54:11  * bbf stares at Chruker, as he suggests we drop Squirrel completly
15:55:04  <Yexo> bbf: <- a patch to be able to make a map generator in squirrel. It's way too slow, but you can see how to use the squirrel system
15:55:22  <Yexo> just rename mapgen to goals and you should have most of the code ready
15:58:58  <bbf> hmm... this script is interesting for something else I wanted to aswell
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15:59:12  <bbf> is it gonna be merged in the trunk ?
15:59:24  <Yexo> no, because it's way too slow for map generation
15:59:32  <Yexo> 13 seconds for a 512x512 map iirc
15:59:46  <bbf> but since it's optional, why not ?
16:00:10  <bbf> you can switch between Original, TerraGenesis and Script right ?
16:00:13  <Yexo> because it'll give bug reports "openttd hangs" when people try to generate big maps
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16:00:18  <Yexo> yes
16:01:39  <bbf> what about warning the user when it's selected: "Warning: What you are trying to do is gonna hang the game for a long time, you better get some popcorn while you are at it."
16:02:50  <bbf> or why not merge it, and only enable it with #ifdefs ? ./configure --enable-squirrel-mapgen
16:03:16  <Yexo> what's the point of merging if it's not compiled by default?
16:03:45  <bbf> sorry, I'm not trying to change the the way the project is being handled, I just wanna understand how it's being handled
16:04:12  <Yexo> ok, no problem, the reasons that patch is not included are:
16:04:16  <bbf> because some people, like me, would love to have stuff like that when running servers
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16:04:36  <Yexo> 1. It needs a new window to set seperate settings per map generator script
16:04:47  <Yexo> (and I dislike creating guis)
16:05:19  <Yexo> 2. The code needs more cleanup, the functions from mg_run.cpp should be split to some other files
16:06:01  <Yexo> 3. the few people I've send that patch (the ones most likely to create a new script) never gave much response
16:06:29  <Yexo> 4. it's slow (not a huge problem)
16:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> <bbf> what about warning the user when it's selected: "Warning: What you are trying to do is gonna hang the game for a long time, you better get some popcorn while you are at it." <- people ignore the current "if you change newgrfs, your computer is gonna blow up" message, either
16:07:08  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: because it doesn't reliably blow up
16:07:24  <bbf> I agree with wito
16:07:25  <xahodo> Why not 2 sepparate progress bars, one for the current stage and one for the overall status?
16:08:07  <[wito]> adding newgrfs, for example, almost always works
16:08:17  <xahodo> That could help the scripted map generator with informing the player about how far it is.
16:08:19  <[wito]> except for train sets
16:08:57  <Yexo> xahodo: that's require the map generator script to tell openttd how far it is
16:09:07  <Yexo> which is possible, but adds mroe code to those scripts
16:09:23  <welshdragon> more code + bad thing?
16:09:30  <bbf> and it'll depend on how good the script code is
16:09:49  <xahodo> At least the player then knows how far the script is,
16:09:52  <Yexo> welshdragon: if the same can be done with less (and equally readable) code, yes
16:09:57  <bbf> do you trust progress bars when installing software ? :)
16:10:24  <Yexo> yes, I trust them to take as long for 99% and 100% as for the rest of the bar
16:10:25  <xahodo> I don't get progress bars when installing software...
16:11:10  <bbf> it's really hard to estimate how much the script will take depending on the script
16:11:35  <bbf> and I think this whole sq mapgen stuff would be great with dedicated servers only
16:11:38  <xahodo> Then let the script handle increasing the progress bars.
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16:13:08  <bbf> ooh... btw, how does the game scale when you increase the number of companies in the game ?
16:13:27  <Yexo> just increasing the number of companies does as good as nothing
16:13:33  <Yexo> it's more the total number of vehicles
16:13:38  <bbf> why is it currently set to 15, and not 30 for example ?
16:14:02  <bbf> so, if we have 200 companies, but with less vehicles per company, that would be ok ?
16:14:04  <Yexo> because several variables are 16 bit and need a bitmask of the companies
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16:14:21  <bbf> oh
16:14:24  <Yexo> so it's not easy to increase it to more then 15
16:14:40  <bbf> that was the answer I was looking for
16:14:41  <Hirundo> And some places in the map array (roads) cannot handle more than 16 - 1 companies currently
16:14:43  <Yexo> it's also stored in the map array, and that's full
16:18:58  <glx> and number fo comany colors is limited too
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16:21:35  <Chruker> Wishlist for a new scripting system:  1) Multithreading, 2) Ability to follow (stepping) execution through the script
16:22:30  <Yexo> Chruker: completely agree with 2)
16:22:45  <Yexo> do you mean multithreading within your script, or running several AIs at the same time?
16:23:40  <glx> we tried threaded AIs, it caused more problems than it solved
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16:23:56  <Chruker> Mainly one AI per thread
16:24:13  <Yexo> that causes way too much trouble to be worth the time
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16:25:19  <Chruker> I guess I'm assuming that the AI would work just like a client connected to a server, but if the AI code doesnt allow that kind of seperation I see the problem :-)
16:25:40  <Yexo> it doesn't work like that
16:25:44  <bbf> you wanted an asynch AI
16:25:53  <Yexo> though it should be easy to create a client that runs an AI
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16:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause> such a client would still have to calculate the game state, like any multiplayer client
16:31:19  <Yexo> of course, but it could be run on a different computer
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16:48:28  <Aali> in fact, I used to have a patch that would allow you to run an AI on a client
16:48:34  <Aali> without patching the server
16:48:46  <Aali> major fun pre-noAI merge
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17:37:13  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: yexo * r16520 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_bridge.cpp: -Fix [NoAI]: Make sure AIBridge::BuildBridge returns what the documentation says it does (r16244 for AIBridge)
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17:53:32  <bbf> how do releases get packaged ? are the tags for releases copied directly from the main trunk, or do they come from a branch ?
17:54:10  <glx> from branch
17:54:47  <bbf> and then when something is considered mature, it's backported from the trunk to the branch ?
17:55:07  <glx> only bugfixes are backported
17:55:35  <bbf> when does the trunk become the current branch then ?
17:56:03  <glx> branch is created when we think it's time to make it :)
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17:56:56  <bbf> because, that mapgen patch uses files that are in script/* in trunk, but I don't see them currently even on 7.1-RC3
17:57:30  <glx> all branches are based on trunk
17:58:12  <bbf> so at some point 7.1 came directly from trunk, right ?
17:58:17  <glx> no
17:58:26  <glx> 7.1 will be from 0.7
17:58:51  <glx> trunk will become 0.8
17:58:56  <Yexo> bbf: somewhere before 0.7-RC1 a new branch was created for 0.7
17:59:18  <Yexo> all new development remains in trunk, and bugfixes are backported to that new branch
17:59:38  <Yexo> after some time, 0.7.0-RC1 was released, bugs where found, fixed in trunk and backported again
17:59:39  <bbf> so, if I wanna use that mapgen code on a server that is compatible with the current stable release, I'll have to backport some of the changes from trunk
17:59:54  <Yexo> yes
18:00:25  <Yexo> r15736 to be exact
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18:01:55  <Yexo> should be trivial, since 0.7 was split of at r15734
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18:11:59  <Chruker> Is the way the openttd project uses tags, branches and trunk the 'standar' way version control systems are used?
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18:12:07  <Chruker> *'standard'
18:12:36  <bbf> using SVN is more like a coding convention
18:13:01  <bbf> even tags and branches are not a standard by svn itself
18:13:05  <blathijs> Chruker: Yeah, it is the most commonly used layout
18:13:27  <blathijs> Chruker: You could take a look at the svnbook, IIRC this convention is proposed there
18:13:36  <Xaroth> Chruker: there are no 'standards', just common-used stuff
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18:14:59  <Chruker> that was why I put the word standard in the '' :-)  However most of the sites where I've read about it, seems to keep trunk as the latest 'stable' and then all development are done in branches.
18:16:32  <frosch123> there is a difference between a "release branch" and a "development branch" for experimental stuff :)
18:16:48  <Xaroth> People usually use Trunk for the 'latest working version'
18:16:58  <Yexo> Chruker: lots of 'big' patches for openttd are codes in a branch first, see for example
18:16:59  <Xaroth> in this case, it's just the latest version
18:17:19  <Xaroth> and i'm sure the devs don't just randomly commit crap if they aren't sure it's going to work :P
18:17:21  <frosch123> some also fix bugs reported for the stables first in the stable branch, and then sync trunk with the release branch. but imo that screws up history
18:20:20  <Belugas> [14:20] <Xaroth> and i'm sure the devs don't just randomly commit crap if they aren't sure it's going to work :P  <---  that is...  mmh... a leap of faith...  you never know it's going ot work 100% of the time
18:20:27  <Belugas> bogus bogus
18:20:50  <Belugas> sometimes, it's nt even tested, for a lack of test cases
18:20:53  <blathijs> _Most_ of the time, there will be at least _some_ testing before committing :-p
18:21:05  <Belugas> sometimes, it's not even compiled
18:21:10  <Belugas> yeah, MOST of the time ;)
18:21:32  * Belugas heads down to work
18:21:32  <Chruker> Ex:  '<glx> 0.7.1 will be from 0.7' that make it sounds like a tag turning into a branch
18:21:49  <Belugas> the other way around
18:21:54  <Belugas> it's a tag on a branch
18:22:00  <Yexo> 0.7 is a branch, 0.7.1 will be a tag on that branch
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18:22:42  <frosch123> Chruker: <- there is a 0.7 branch with 0.7.0 RC1..RC2, 0.7.0, 0.7.0 RC1..RC3 refering to it
18:23:04  <frosch123> the latter are tags
18:23:52  <frosch123> under "branches" you will also find two abandoned development branches :)
18:25:51  <Noldo> only two?
18:26:02  <Yexo> yes
18:26:18  <Yexo> some others were removed
18:28:33  <Chruker> It just seems to me that the location of the latest stable-ish version moves from trunk to ex. the 0.7 branch
18:29:04  <Yexo> the latest stable is never trunk
18:29:24  <Chruker> Or does ALL 0.7 relevant bugfixes get ported from trunk to 0.7 branch until you decide to go to 0.8 branch?
18:29:26  <Yexo> all bugs fixed in trunk are backported to the latest stable branch (0.7 currently)
18:29:31  <Chruker> :-)
18:29:32  <Yexo> Chruker: yes
18:29:47  <Chruker> I think that was the missing link
18:29:51  <Yexo> and in the meantime new features are introduced in trunk which can introduce new bugs
18:29:58  <Yexo> ok :0
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18:30:57  <frosch123> sometimes we also backport some of the new bugs :p
18:31:08  <Chruker> hehe
18:31:26  <Yexo> like r16502?
18:31:39  <Yexo> I'm very happy Rubidium ran the regression test before releasing 0.7.1-RC3 :)
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18:32:35  <frosch123> or r16478, I guess there are a lot :)
18:33:38  <frosch123> hmm, or was that before branching, cannot remember
18:35:53  <fonsinchen> Nice, the build system is fixed. Dependency resolution when switching between git branches seems to work fine now.
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18:36:28  <frosch123> since r16307 :)
18:37:12  <fonsinchen> Oh, it seems I haven't tried without the usual "make clean && make" for a long time.
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18:39:04  <DJNekkid> question to any newgrf expert: is it possible to refrence a var2 "extra callback info" in another "extra callback info"
18:39:41  * frosch123 does not understand the question
18:39:52  <DJNekkid> tbh, me either when i think harder on it
18:40:02  <DJNekkid> hehe
18:40:11  <frosch123> :)
18:41:13  <DJNekkid> clue is, i want a CB 36'es property to be adjustable on some kind of variable...
18:41:45  <Lakie> Sounds messy
18:42:02  <frosch123> which property shall depend on which variable?
18:42:29  <DJNekkid> so if i "10" two kinds, with <value+80>, and do that thru some kind of other variable, and refrerance that in the "main" '10'
18:42:30  <DJNekkid> hmm...
18:42:45  <DJNekkid> frosch123: i've forgotten in all this thinking :)
18:42:57  <DJNekkid> running cost
18:43:36  <DJNekkid> based on running speed
18:44:16  <frosch123> so you want to use the speed (as defined by cb 36) in the cb 36 to define the running cost?
18:44:26  <frosch123> s/speed/maxspeed/
18:45:03  <frosch123> or do you want to use the current speed of the vehicle for the running cost?
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18:47:55  <DJNekkid> doh, bleh!
18:48:00  <DJNekkid> ofcourse!
18:49:06  <frosch123> well, in the former case you could use a "function call" to share the chains, in the latter - well -  there are some sets doing that
18:49:14  <DJNekkid>
18:49:33  <DJNekkid> now that should work!
18:49:41  <DJNekkid> variable B4 is runspeed btw
18:49:49  <Lakie> I think Pikka does similar to what you want.
18:50:07  <DJNekkid> the cID CB might need to be an 82 btw
18:50:15  <DJNekkid> i've done something _similar_ in the 2cc st
18:50:22  <DJNekkid> just way more code...
18:50:25  <DJNekkid> two CB36'es
18:50:33  <DJNekkid> changed inbetween the runspeed
18:50:43  <DJNekkid> jeesus, my english suck!
18:51:08  <DJNekkid> "if runspeed = 0, use one cb36, else use other cb36"
18:52:09  <frosch123> hmm, is there still some open question?
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18:55:48  <DJNekkid> i dont think so ... and i woul think that the paste i did there would work...
18:55:58  <DJNekkid> sometimes one just need to air ones thouts i think :)
18:56:08  <DJNekkid> and my wife is talkin on the phone :p
18:57:19  <DJNekkid> Lakie: did the animation code work btw?
18:57:44  <Lakie> Haven't had achance to try it, renum keeps failing to compile (cygwin error though)
18:57:50  <fonsinchen> Why does NFO have such a sick syntax? Wouldn't it be possible to alias every meaningful block of hex code with either a human readable keyword or a human readable number, perhaps add some braces and then just run a very simple string replacing compiler on that to get the originial NFO syntax? That would be very helpful for people like me who can't read hex like a book. Maybe I should try something like this.
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18:58:29  <Aali> fonsinchen: its called preprocessing, and people have already done it :)
18:59:28  <frosch123> multiple people have done it :) but noone seems to use any of those
19:00:13  <fonsinchen> Oh, do you have a link?
19:00:42  <fonsinchen> Why does no one use the preprocessors?
19:01:47  <Aali> because it doesn't actually make things easier since everyone and everything else works with (more or less) raw nfo?
19:02:28  <frosch123> fonsinchen: because everyone of them uses a different weird script language which no windows noob can use
19:04:48  *** theholyduck [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:05:06  <frosch123> fonsinchen: <- there is my approch that deals with action2 chains. it is for Gnu R :p Most others dealt with action 0. Eddi|zuHause had some thingie that dealt with action 0, 1,2,3 or so
19:07:25  <fonsinchen> The preprocessor should work in both ways: compile and decompile nfo seemlessly. Then incompatibility between stuff written in raw nfo and symbolic nfo wouldn't be an issue.
19:08:31  <frosch123> some of them can also deal with that, but imo grf->nfo is hardly useful, as you won't understand the grf anyway
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19:09:01  <planetmaker> Lakie: I have compiled a recent renum version which works without cygwin support
19:09:17  <Lakie> Could I have a copy, if you don't mind.
19:09:23  <planetmaker> I attached it in the renum thread
19:09:23  <fonsinchen> If you could decompile NFO into some symbolic representation you'd at least have more of a chance of understanding it.
19:09:28  <planetmaker> of course, I don't mind :)
19:09:33  <Lakie> Usually I'd build my own, but cygwin refuses to find the boost files
19:09:37  <frosch123> fonsinchen: you know grf2html ?
19:09:43  <fonsinchen> Yes
19:09:52  <planetmaker> <- or grab it there
19:09:54  <fonsinchen> but the result is not editable.
19:10:03  <planetmaker> ^Lakie
19:10:03  <frosch123> no :)
19:10:12  <fonsinchen> that's a drawback.
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19:12:46  <Lakie> Thanks, planetmaker
19:12:58  <planetmaker> no worries. My pleasure
19:13:01  <planetmaker> does it work for you?
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19:14:02  <Lakie> Appears to
19:14:09  <planetmaker> Btw Lakie: I made good experience with just using MinGW and MSys. without any cygwin things required
19:14:18  <planetmaker> that's how I built it.
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19:14:38  <Lakie> MinGW works pretty nicely
19:14:43  <planetmaker> nice, good to know it works for others, too and not just for me :)
19:14:44  <Lakie> Not sure about MSys though
19:15:23  <planetmaker> well. If everything you need works - don't change it :)
19:15:27  <Lakie> Except with mingw, I've always had issues with gdb
19:15:47  <planetmaker> I didn't use that so far under windows.
19:16:08  <Lakie> Hehe, fair enough
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19:49:45  <Ammler> hmm, is there a function to delete the old bananas grfs?
19:51:09  <Yexo> no
19:51:14  <Yexo> and that's by design
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19:52:26  <Yexo> terms of service: 4. You grant the OpenTTD team to retain older versions of your content for the purpose of loading savegame with said older version.
19:53:44  <planetmaker> Yexo: I think it was meant as locally.
19:53:47  <planetmaker> Not on the server
19:54:02  <planetmaker> ^^ Ammler?
19:54:18  <planetmaker> of course there's the rm function ;)
19:54:53  <Yexo> ah, ok :)
19:55:24  <planetmaker> on the server it doesn't make sense indeed
19:56:37  <Ammler> yes, I meant something to automatically clean the server
19:56:45  <Ammler> (openttd server)
19:57:30  <Ammler> and i agree you keeping old grfs on bananas, that is completely fine ;-)
19:58:53  <Yexo> the main problem is that a client (I assume your server is a game-server, so a bananas-client) has no idea whether or not a newgrf is outdated
20:00:59  <Ammler> rm * and redownload might be the easiest
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20:05:14  <Ammler> Yexo: why not, you can update grfs, so it should be possible?
20:05:45  <Yexo> Ammler: uploading is possible because the bananas server tells what the new versions are
20:05:47  <Ammler> well, it needs first connecting to server, but would be less traffic then redownload everything.
20:07:03  <Ammler> for server, it is important to delete old files, as they are loaded randomly.
20:08:17  <Ammler> hmm
20:08:39  <Yexo> ah, I see the problem now
20:09:52  <Ammler> I am wondering, nobody thought about version info in newgrfs earlier ;-)
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20:30:45  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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20:46:37  <Belugas> Ammler:   <--- version
20:48:13  <Ammler> Belugas: but you don't mean GRFID?
20:48:37  <Ammler> as you change that only, if it isn't  compatible anymore.
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20:50:20  <Belugas> [16:13] <Ammler> I am wondering, nobody thought about version info in newgrfs earlier ;-)
20:50:24  <Belugas> version
20:50:33  <Belugas> use it properly or not
20:50:37  <Belugas> i mean...
20:50:50  <Belugas> that's waht it's used for :S
20:51:17  <Belugas> unless yu need a version of a version in a version for a version :S
20:51:24  <Ammler> no, it isn't
20:51:34  <Ammler> you don't change grfid for version
20:51:50  <Belugas> wel... you should
20:51:54  <Ammler> and i.e. george doesn't use it anyway,
20:52:03  <Ammler> no, you mustn't!
20:52:07  <Ammler> :-)
20:52:12  <Belugas> does not mean that if he throws himself over a bridge you should follow
20:54:11  <Ammler> would you change the GRFID, if you have to fix a alignment?
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21:00:13  <Belugas> technically, yes
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21:00:30  <Belugas> everytime you recompile for distribution, you should
21:00:43  <Belugas> if foryourself, no
21:01:01  <Belugas> if for the outside world, a recompile would require a new version
21:01:06  <Belugas> no matter what
21:01:18  <Belugas> otherwise... well...
21:01:36  <planetmaker> Belugas: how do you indicate then, that the grfs are compatible?
21:01:54  <planetmaker> they are compatible. Just a bit changed graphics etc. No changes with IDs.
21:01:58  <planetmaker> that doesn't make sense IMO
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21:02:04  <andythenorth> me neither.
21:02:24  <Belugas> not the point of compatibilty
21:02:28  <planetmaker> grfID should indicate incompatible things like ISR 8.0 and 7.1
21:02:39  <Belugas> :S
21:02:39  <andythenorth> right now I am doing a minor version change on HEQS.  it's a bug fix.  If change the grfid I break all saved games.
21:02:49  <andythenorth> that's not good.  even if it's correct
21:02:59  <Belugas> you CHANGED something, you RECOMPILED something, yu change version
21:03:03  <Belugas> that's how i see it
21:03:08  <Belugas> that's what i do at work
21:03:19  <planetmaker> yes. But OpenTTD also maintains compatibility.
21:03:19  <Belugas> that's what Ottd does too
21:03:28  <planetmaker> newgrfs cannot do that, if they change version
21:03:29  <Belugas> irrelevanta
21:04:51  <planetmaker> well it works for base grfs. why not newgrfs?
21:05:15  <andythenorth> I change something.  I change version.  I break saved games.  Users are pissed off.  How is that helping? :)
21:06:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth: technically you're not breaking savegames. They just have to keep playing with the old one in old games. But nevertheless...
21:06:42  <planetmaker> if it's wrong to use the same GRFID but different MD5 sum... why accept that at all?
21:07:39  <andythenorth> I may be talking out of my arse, but the grfid schema doesn't *look* like a version key.  It looks like a grf key to allow grfs to check for the presence of other grfs.  I wasn't there when it was invented, but the uses I've *seen* and the documentation I've *seen* indicate that is one of its functions??
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21:08:19  <planetmaker> it's a machine readable name by documentation
21:09:53  * Belugas turns back to tis duties
21:10:31  <Nite_Owl> What if the GRFID stays the same but you change the file name to coincide with the version released
21:10:59  <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: the filename is irrelevant afaik
21:11:38  <Nite_Owl> true but it does give you an idea of the grf's progression
21:11:40  <planetmaker> the point is that openttd filters, if the grfID is the same
21:12:03  <planetmaker> and gives you a random file out of those with the same grfID.
21:12:13  <planetmaker> not the newest, not the oldest, just some
21:12:40  <planetmaker> IF they're all in tars w/o directories.
21:12:46  <planetmaker> and a server may select any
21:13:10  <andythenorth> can we fix this grfid business in any easy way? :)
21:13:56  <planetmaker> well. It helps to pack things in an archive in a sub-directory.
21:14:03  <planetmaker> then they're considered seperate files
21:17:07  <Nite_Owl> I do not use bananas that much for these exact reasons - plus I have my own directory structure where I like to store grfs
21:18:55  <planetmaker> well. bananas works like a charm IMO in that respect. It's easy to use to stay up2date with those grfs.
21:19:51  <Nite_Owl> I do seem to remember being able to extract files from the tars though and move them around as much as I might like
21:19:54  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r16521 /trunk/src/yapf/follow_track.hpp: -Fix [FS#2946] (r13945): Do not access 'compatible_railtypes' for road vehicles. (causing invalid reads since r16391/16392)
21:25:33  <Nite_Owl> and for those grf makers that do not rename their files with a version number I usually do that for the sake of my own sanity anyway
21:26:20  <Ammler> Nite_Owl: that is something you shouldn't do without grfid change
21:26:50  <Ammler> just think about newgrf presets
21:28:05  <Nite_Owl> I only do it so I can remember if I have the latest version of the grf or not
21:28:21  <Yexo> Ammler: it doesn't matter if you do that as soon as you download something
21:28:23  <Ammler> ah, for your local grfs?
21:28:39  <Ammler> Yexo: ?
21:28:51  <Yexo> <Ammler> Nite_Owl: that is something you shouldn't do without grfid change <- that
21:29:17  <Ammler> yeah, I thought, he renames grf file for release
21:30:40  <Nite_Owl> no - just personal use
21:31:14  <Ammler> well, I do that too (the old gfs), also for the grfpack
21:31:22  <Ammler> grfs*
21:31:59  <Ammler> there are around 4 different ISR versions in the coop pack :-)
21:35:58  <Nite_Owl> Speaking of which has anyone heard from mart3p recently?
21:37:12  <andythenorth> yes, he's busy  ;)
21:37:31  <andythenorth> I think he's either buried with 'real' work.  or out of the country.
21:38:11  <frosch123> Last visited:  	Tue May 26, 2009 5:57 pm <- :o
21:38:24  <planetmaker> hm?
21:38:40  <frosch123> no totally lost :)
21:38:42  <frosch123> +t
21:38:56  <planetmaker> ah
21:40:13  <Nite_Owl> I still owe him some feedback from late last year but I will await his non-busyness
21:40:32  <andythenorth> don't take my word for it, he may pop up all eager to code :)
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21:40:51  <andythenorth> I usually get him on forum PMs
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21:42:55  <Nite_Owl> Once he returns to a more 'normal' schedule of appearances I will contact him
21:43:46  <Lakie> planetmaker: tested it properly now, seems to work fine, thanks
21:44:02  <planetmaker> good to hear :) You're welcome.
21:44:25  <Lakie> Now I have to update the xls file before I can use it to start coding, lol
21:46:24  <Ammler> the cargo tiny?
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22:01:46  <Belugas> beurk
22:01:55  <Belugas> bretzels and coffee
22:01:57  <Belugas> not the best mix
22:03:27  <Eddi|zuHause> brezels and coffee? why not put salt in your coffee directly?
22:05:42  <Belugas> well..
22:05:51  <Belugas> no
22:05:54  <Belugas> worser
22:06:07  <Belugas> -r
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22:28:09  <bbf> Yexo, something that the mapgen needs is more math functions
22:28:24  <bbf> like sqrt
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22:28:58  <Yexo> bbf: you might have noticed that patch is nearly 2 months old
22:29:07  <Yexo> feel free to update it, add things etc.
22:29:13  <Yexo> but don't except too much time from me
22:29:27  <bbf> I don't expect it
22:29:37  <bbf> but you said you didn't have any feedback from it
22:29:55  <bbf> I'm just giving you feedback :)
22:30:08  <Yexo> well, ok :)
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