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Log for #openttd on 12th July 2009:
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00:03:27  <TrueBrain> night all
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00:14:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r16794 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix (r16752): setting coverage area highlight in the airport selection window didn't take effect immediatly
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01:06:58  <Djungelmunnas> Hey guys
01:08:33  <Djungelmunnas> I have something on my mind
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01:10:52  <Djungelmunnas> I need to figure out a away to merge a station, so that trains from 4 different directions can merge and return/go any way.
01:10:58  <Djungelmunnas> This is what I've got so far
01:11:02  <Djungelmunnas> http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5589/ottdq.jpg
01:11:44  <Tefad> is that a jpeg screen shot
01:11:53  <Tefad> you just opened up a can of worms son.
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01:12:38  <Tefad> next time use the built-in screenshot ability
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01:13:30  <Djungelmunnas> Thanks for the tip but it was off topic
01:13:49  <Tefad> it is quite on topic as this is openttd and you're WRONG on the internet.
01:13:59  <Tefad> protip: it's ctrl+s
01:14:08  <Djungelmunnas> Yeah I checked it up.
01:14:20  <Djungelmunnas> Do I have to ask again or will you drop that?
01:14:33  <Tefad> no, i will continue to beat the dead horse
01:14:41  <Tefad> because i like beating things.
01:15:00  <Djungelmunnas> Cool story bro, try beating my problem
01:15:26  <Tefad> is dat sum 4chons
01:16:10  <Tefad> why do you have one giant station
01:16:54  <Djungelmunnas> Why not?
01:17:16  <Djungelmunnas> 1: Goods can be picked up from any direction?
01:17:17  <Tefad> because you're going to need waypoints to direct to the different entrances
01:17:30  <Tefad> you can have a separate station for goods pickup
01:17:48  <Tefad> it's probably a bad idea to have pickup and dropoff on the same station
01:18:01  <Djungelmunnas> Not really
01:18:03  <Tefad> as you can fill all your slots with pickup and no room for dropping off
01:18:16  <Djungelmunnas> Not gonna happen
01:18:22  <Tefad> by way of magic?
01:18:25  <Djungelmunnas> No
01:18:35  <Djungelmunnas> By way of not having 28 goods trains
01:19:04  <Tefad> eh, at least you use foobar2000.
01:19:36  <Djungelmunnas> eh?
01:19:44  <Djungelmunnas> Do you know what spotify is?
01:20:00  <Tefad> m000zak
01:20:04  <Djungelmunnas> http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&safe=off&q=define%3ASpotify&btnG=S%C3%B6k&meta=
01:20:15  <Djungelmunnas> "streaming music program that allows instant listening"
01:20:22  <Tefad> it's proprietary so i will have a large hesitation to avoid using it
01:20:27  <Tefad> er
01:20:31  <Tefad> to using it.
01:21:07  <Tefad> i'll stick to my own music files stored locally
01:21:16  <Djungelmunnas> Suite yourself.
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01:21:25  <Tefad> i have bandwidth caps on my connection anyway
01:21:55  <Tefad> comes out to roughly 768kbps half-duplex, anything streaming will dig into this
01:22:04  <Tefad> i have a habit of leaving streams running unintentionally
01:22:41  <Djungelmunnas> Splendid man.
01:23:11  <Djungelmunnas> You wanna talk about something relevant?
01:24:50  <Tefad> never
01:27:08  <Djungelmunnas> Think about it
01:27:17  <Djungelmunnas> I'll be back in a year or less
01:27:23  <Djungelmunnas> Don't worry about it
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06:58:49  <Alberth> good morning
07:07:14  <FR^2> hi Alberth
07:07:20  <FR^2> Hmm. Restart :/ see ya
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08:44:38  <fonsinchen> For some reason, if STR_BLACK_CROSS >= 0x9D the rail toolbar is drawn incorrectly.
08:44:49  <fonsinchen> Is that known or even on purpose?
08:51:07  <petern> you mean if you add strings before STR_BLACK_CROSS?
08:58:04  <Alberth> fonsinchen: I don't understand that, what does "if STR_BLACK_CROSS >= 0x9D" mean, and why would it change value?
08:59:09  <Alberth> perhaps you use OpenGFX?
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09:00:39  <fonsinchen> I add strings before STR_BLACK_CROSS
09:00:49  <fonsinchen> is that prohibited?
09:02:03  <fonsinchen> I mean, I could put them somewhere else but as they are used for the station GUI they fit quite nicely in the region with STR_WAITING_TITLE and so on.
09:02:34  <Alberth> I'd say it should be allowed. Not sure whether moving the black cross without moving the silver cross is allowed.
09:02:58  <fonsinchen> It doesn't matter where the silver cross is for the bug to appear.
09:03:25  <Alberth> the rail toolbar uses the sprites to compute the sizes. You should see the same effect with the town directory window
09:03:38  <fonsinchen> I can try ...
09:04:03  <fonsinchen> yes, it's true
09:04:04  <Alberth> all other windows have hard-coded sizes for all widgets, so there it won't happen.
09:04:28  <Alberth> (except the intro-screen, but that doesn't have a close button)
09:05:09  <fonsinchen> I posted a bug report with a minimal patch to provoke the problem: FS#3030
09:05:47  <Alberth> i just noticed that, will do some experimenting.
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09:14:25  <Rubidium> what happens when you move it to the front of the language file?
09:17:24  <Alberth> I get "dbg: [sprite] Tried to load character sprite #230 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference" with a clean trunk, new openttd.cfg, and a very weird toolbar header :)
09:21:59  <Rubidium> odd... very odd
09:24:14  <Alberth> width/height returned is "width/height = 17x20" which is less than optimal :)
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09:24:45  <Alberth> btw that is when the sprite is at position 13
09:27:09  <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/fs3030.diff <- ought to fix it
09:27:45  <Alberth> yes :D  I just realized my mistake
09:30:47  <Ammler> openttd: src/pbs.cpp:73: bool TryReserveRailTrack(TileIndex, Track): Assertion `(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL, 0) & TrackToTrackBits(t)) != 0' failed.
09:33:38  <Rubidium> and?
09:33:54  <Rubidium> using IS, aren't you?
09:34:36  <Ammler> then, this would be wrong channel :-)
09:35:03  <Ammler> well, we see, if we can reproduce.
09:35:44  <Ammler> on the 150 games we played yet, maybe 2 non-trunk games.
09:36:52  <Rubidium> true, but PBS is quite well tested by now, so any reported bugs have a higher chance of being due to changes in that area
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09:38:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: a traceback is generally more helpful than such a general assertion
09:38:42  <Ammler> well
09:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the assertion tells you practically nothing
09:39:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16795 /trunk/src/ (road_map.cpp road_map.h town_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#3025]: houses wouldn't get build on the map edge.
09:39:55  <Ammler> how do you make a traceback without gdb?
09:40:09  <Rubidium> crash.dmp
09:40:21  <Rubidium> but that requires Windows
09:40:27  <Rubidium> but what's so bad about gdb?
09:40:32  <frosch123> pstack on various *nix
09:40:58  <Ammler> I would say, the assert tells very much, if you run non debug game.
09:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't really matter what you say ;)
09:41:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r16796 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix [FS#3030]: Closebox 'X' is a string. (Rubidium)
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09:42:16  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: "would" ;-)
09:42:36  <Ammler> I didn't :P
09:42:57  <Rubidium> an assert is no more than: oops something went bad here; it's slightly more useful than a segfault or a FPE
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09:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and for a useful backtrace, you don't need a debug build, only an unstripped binary
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09:43:53  <Rubidium> don't you need at least -g ?
09:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> well, what you don't need is all the weird debug hotkeys (like shift being fast forward)
09:46:06  <Rubidium> as if that really takes any significant CPU
09:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is not what i meant
09:48:18  <Eddi|zuHause> for a general user, that wants to catch a backtrace for a bug that he does not know how to reproduce, the game interface should not change
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09:48:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the shift key being the most obvious difference
09:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> because "general users" use the shift key for other things, like typing in the chat window...
09:50:28  <Rubidium> "general users" as usually Windows users anyway
09:52:38  <Rubidium> otherwise ./configure CFLAGS=-g would suffice too I reckon
09:56:03  <Ammler> we can't reproduce it.
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09:57:00  <Rubidium> and then there's -d desync=1 that dumps all commands, which can be used to replay if needed
09:57:33  <Ammler> we log the docommands anyway
09:59:38  <frosch123> maybe ottdcoop should enable core dumps :)
10:01:12  <Ammler> it was the first assert since a long time.
10:01:34  <Ammler> oh, for*?
10:02:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r16797 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Codechange: Allow drop-down menus for windows with nested widgets.
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10:02:44  <Ammler> http://pastebin.ca/1492546
10:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i mean the shift key is the reason why i don't run a debug-1-build all the time
10:03:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it is just inconvenient
10:03:48  <Yexo> Ammler: that list can't be used to reproduce a game
10:04:04  <Yexo> you log the date, but not the tick the docommand occured
10:06:20  <Ammler> hehe, we don't have a client, which coould run it that way anyway, have we?
10:07:12  * petern ponders that Ammler-to-English dictionary again...
10:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it would be straight-forward to create one...
10:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but it needs the tick number
10:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and the savegame to start from
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10:44:39  <Dragoon_Jett> Can someone answer a question about the game
10:44:59  <Alberth> someone tends to be busy, but maybe we can help you
10:45:05  <Dragoon_Jett> Har har
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10:45:29  <Alberth> just ask :)
10:45:39  <Dragoon_Jett> So when I build a station and I have the coverage grid on and I am placing near oil or whatever, does the oil or whatever load faster the more blocks of it are in the grid?
10:46:01  <Alberth> no
10:46:05  <Dragoon_Jett> Ok thanks
10:47:08  <Alberth> if the station picker window states the oil is supplied, that's enough
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10:55:12  <Dragoon_Jett> Thanks
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11:03:42  <TrueBrain_> morning
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11:04:18  <Alberth> good afternoon
11:05:19  <Coco-Banana-Man> hi
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11:29:32  <petern> hmmm
11:29:38  <petern> don't think pikka uses sound priority
11:29:53  <petern> which makes implementing it pointless
11:30:22  <frosch123> isn't that a ttd dos thingie?
11:30:52  <petern> ...
11:30:53  <petern> no
11:31:25  <frosch123> so we also have limited mixing channels?
11:31:25  <petern> oh, it is
11:31:28  <petern> but yes
11:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> "if there are too many sounds playing simultaneously, you can leave this one out"
11:31:30  <petern> we have 8 channels
11:31:48  <petern> sounds like the windows version removed that limit
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11:36:22  <petern> i wonder if it is really unlimited, or just a large limit
11:38:08  <petern> cos when you get to 150 channels it sounds ... silly
11:38:22  <petern> whoop, 256 channels
11:38:28  <petern> on a zoomed out map
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12:04:07  <TrueBrain> stupid tools ... I can't get id3v2 to show me the id3v2 tags in a mp3 .. it only shows me the id3v1 tags :(
12:12:07  <Ammler> www.mp3tag.de
12:12:22  <TrueBrain> I should have added: via CLI in linux
12:12:43  <TrueBrain> they all can add id3v2 tags, but they can't show you ...
12:13:25  <petern> write one :D
12:14:00  <TrueBrain> lol, as soon as I added a new id3v2 tag, the old ones do show up :p
12:14:11  <TrueBrain> although still not the TXXX ones ...
12:15:03  <TrueBrain> oh, they were removed
12:15:05  <TrueBrain> how lovely :)
12:20:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r16798 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp widget.cpp widget_type.h window.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3016]: Added several new widget distances for better widget size computations.
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12:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> damn, every time i see a black spot on the screen, i get scared now...
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12:43:01  <Eddi|zuHause> feature request: in the timetable settings, i want to set the maximum speed the vehicle is allowed to travel for each order
12:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and generally, i want the timetable management patch merged...
12:45:39  <Rubidium> that requires cargodest to be merged first, cause AFAIR it applied to cargodest
12:46:26  <petern> uh
12:46:40  <petern> sure i remember seeing that before cargodest
12:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> afair he had a trunk version parallel to the cargodest version
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12:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and he focused on cargodest in the expectation that it would be merged "soon", but i really don't see that happening anymore
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12:49:07  <Rubidium> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39276 <- cargodest patch, much later he released a trunk version
12:49:44  <Rubidium> and depending for so long on cargodest really destroyed its chances to get in trunk
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12:50:27  <Rubidium> and then he released patch during the betas, which got obsoleted quite quickly after 0.7 got branched
12:50:35  <Rubidium> and now it's ancient history already
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12:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but next to cargodest, that is one of the most urgent improvements...
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12:55:25  <Rubidium> ... for 'my' playing style
12:55:34  <Rubidium> ^ you forgot to mention that
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13:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> for not-only-my-but-not-necessarily-all playing styles
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13:01:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm quite sure the coop people could really abuse the timetables :p
13:02:05  <petern> oh well
13:02:09  <petern> definitely not then ;p
13:05:18  <Aali> I'm pretty sure they could not use the timetables
13:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> they said they were up to any challenge :p
13:06:04  <Aali> very rarely do you see any coop game where travel time for a given train is constant
13:06:04  <Chruker> Does something that occurs every 6 months have a fancy *ly-word like monthly, quaterly, yearly have?
13:06:34  *** TheStarLion [~isaac@user-54459eb5.lns1-c13.telh.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd
13:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i hereby challenge them to a network where trains do not stop except when they are scheduled to do so
13:07:00  <Aali> Chruker: biannually
13:07:13  <Chruker> thank you, that was the one
13:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: isn't that every 2 years?
13:07:53  <Aali> confusingly enough, it could mean that too
13:08:29  <Aali> semiannual is always twice a year though
13:08:31  <Chruker> Adv. 1. biannually - twice a year; "we hold our big sale biannually"
13:08:42  <Aali> while biennial is every two years
13:08:52  <Ammler> why shouldn't timetable not work in coop games?
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13:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> addendum: it is not allowed to use priority signals
13:10:35  <Aali> Ammler: do you want to micromanage the timetables for 1000+ trains?
13:10:47  <Xaroth> macromanage.
13:10:50  <Xaroth> you use groups ;)
13:10:53  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: why not disallow signals at all?
13:11:05  <Aali> Xaroth: how does that help?
13:11:10  <Ammler> Aali: where else then on coop you will do that?
13:11:19  <Xaroth> it's a difference between 1 train per timetable or 10 trains per timetable?
13:11:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that could be fun, but it is problematic at stations
13:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that is Brianetta's playing style ;)
13:12:05  <Aali> Xaroth: and how do you know that these 10 trains will use the exact same amount of time to travel from point A to point B?
13:12:15  <Xaroth> .. because they use the same route?
13:12:20  <Xaroth> same stations
13:12:22  <Xaroth> same destinations
13:12:24  <Xaroth> same cargo
13:12:55  <Aali> same tracks? not necessarily
13:13:00  <Xaroth> or are you one of those people who connects station A with B with 1 line and lets 1 train run on it?
13:13:01  <Aali> same congestion? no way
13:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: no train stops inbetween, so all trains always run on maximum speed the same distance, so they take the same time
13:14:31  <Ammler> he, would be nice challlenge to tell trains ignoring all signals and just drive with timetable.
13:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that would be fatal on any timing mistake :p
13:15:11  <Aali> one mistake and you crash every single train on that line :P
13:15:19  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: that's what makes it fun
13:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's something for when the first attempt with signals actually worked :p
13:20:20  <TrueBrain> I love a bit of clever scripting .... automating things can be SO USEFUL!
13:21:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you do 3 songs manually, and then the other 9997 songs by script ;)
13:23:28  <TrueBrain> just I worry a bit about free space ... 1 CD consumes 300 MiB on disk ... 3 albums per GB .. oh well
13:23:45  *** reldred [~reldred@115.131.208.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> wait, you don't have 1TB free?
13:24:03  <TrueBrain> free? No :p
13:24:06  <TrueBrain> available, yes
13:24:21  <TrueBrain> HellaNZB version 0.13, uptime 32 days, 23:07
13:24:22  <TrueBrain> total downloaded: 211300MB, total downloaded nzbs: 161, free disk space: 173409.49MB
13:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the BOFH version of free ;)
13:25:53  <KingJ> I'm sure the users don't need these files... ;)
13:30:40  <Ammler> what's nzbs?
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13:34:02  <Ammler> using usenet for binaries feels so strange :-)
13:34:48  <Hirundo> Can FONT_HEIGHT_NORMAL change during the game?
13:35:28  <Rubidium> yes
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13:36:52  <TrueBrain> Ammler: might feel strange, but it is several factors faster than torrent :p
13:37:59  <petern> usenet abusers :(
13:38:21  <TrueBrain> is the text part of usenet still used in any sane way, I wonder? :)
13:38:30  <KingJ> Depends what kind of torrent you're downloading. Most of the legal ones go very fast
13:38:55  <TrueBrain> KingJ: my usenet gives me 11 MiB/s ... somehow torrents start to stall around 9 MiB/s
13:39:28  <Ammler> ususally, I have speed around 500 kB
13:39:44  <KingJ> I get 360kb/s which is my max
13:40:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i hsve an average speed of 12kb/s, i win
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13:40:54  <Ammler> wow :-o GSM?
13:41:18  <KingJ> GSM is slower than that
13:41:25  <KingJ> GSM would give you ~1kb/s
13:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> torrents are mainly limited by upload speed
13:42:03  <KingJ> I helped seed a mod release recently, maxed out the 100mbit pipe on both
13:42:05  <Ammler> the torrent community I use, doesn't allow you uploading faster then 512 kB
13:42:27  <TrueBrain> how and why would they limit that?
13:42:32  <TrueBrain> (mostly: how?)
13:42:40  <TrueBrain> they can't limit YOUR upload
13:42:44  <Ammler> by rule and moderators
13:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the tracker logs the speed, and kicks out people who disobey
13:43:12  <TrueBrain> if I want to upload at 100 mbit/sec
13:43:15  <TrueBrain> why shouldn't they let me?
13:43:17  <TrueBrain> weird ....
13:43:20  <petern> why would they limit *upload* speed? :s
13:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: to give users with smaller pipes a chance to upload something
13:43:34  <petern> boggle
13:43:34  <TrueBrain> downloading I can understand .. but upload?!
13:43:51  <Ammler> you need a ratio of 1 to stay there.
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13:44:06  <TrueBrain> my ratios hit the 15 on most communitie
13:44:08  <TrueBrain> s
13:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: on trackers which require a minimum ratio, the "smaller" people need a chance to keep the ratio
13:44:41  <TrueBrain> weird .... do you want people to share or not :s
13:44:46  <TrueBrain> restricting upload is just ... weird ...
13:44:51  <TrueBrain> not my kind of community :)
13:44:54  <Rubidium> how is a community that requires your ratio to be > 1 survive?
13:45:01  <Ammler> I guess, ALT (anti leech tracker) is something German
13:45:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can still have 500kbit per torrent
13:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can seed 100 torrents to max your line
13:45:40  <petern> i only ever used legal torrents where that sort of thing is irrevelant
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13:46:47  <TrueBrain> I configured my torrent client to stop sharing after a ration of 15
13:46:52  <TrueBrain> ration = ratio
13:47:06  <TrueBrain> that allows the "smaller" people to do their job too
13:47:09  <Ammler> mine stops on 3 for the community torrents
13:47:15  <Ammler> and never for public
13:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: uploading is usually not the only way to keep your ratio up...
13:47:28  <TrueBrain> torrents are very IO expensive
13:47:32  <TrueBrain> small chunks ...
13:47:45  <Hirundo> hmmm... I fail to see how one can change font height during the game, someone care to explain?
13:48:00  <Ammler> TrueBrain: do you download localized stuff?
13:48:28  <Rubidium> Hirundo: set normal font size to 20 and language to english, start OpenTTD, change language to Chinese
13:48:32  <Ammler> you have rarly much more then 30 downloads per torrent here. :-)
13:48:54  <TrueBrain> Ammler: torrents that hit my client from time to time are distros
13:48:56  <TrueBrain> they go ... fast
13:49:16  <Ammler> yes, those are my public torrents too.
13:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> IO is not really my problem :p
13:50:02  <TrueBrain> it is mine :p When torrents are running around 50 mbit/s, you notice the IO loss :(
13:51:39  <Ammler> oh well, I would like to have a slower pipe here, but sadly, I have already the min speed for flatrate abos.
13:51:53  <Eddi|zuHause> but there are two kinds of torrent communities... one where the focus is getting out as many copies as fast as possible (those are usually open torrents), and those where only few copies are ever given out, but the torrents should be long lived (those are usually closed ALT communities)
13:53:19  <Ammler> and you need to request what you want, many times not available right away.
13:53:39  <TrueBrain> I never have the latter problem :p Ghehe :)
13:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to reactivate a torrent after 2 years, the uploader must get a reason to stay that long
13:53:54  <Ammler> for dutch content?
13:54:16  <TrueBrain> (the good thing about being connected to an university network is that you not only have a very high speed, but that there are also closed communities which share over that high speed ... several TiB of data available .. it rarely happens I need something that isn't directly available :p)
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13:54:57  <TrueBrain> morning KenjiE20
13:55:24  <KenjiE20> af'noon
13:55:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you rarely find decent quality dual language movies on open trackers
13:56:04  <TrueBrain> dual language, as in: english and ... spoken?
13:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> by the time those come out, the "big rush" is long over
13:56:27  <TrueBrain> I don't understand why someone would want to view a movie where not the original actor does the speaking
13:56:31  <TrueBrain> I have absolutely nothing with that
13:56:48  <TrueBrain> (I watch everything in english, rarely with subtitles)
13:57:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you...
13:57:09  <TrueBrain> yup: me :)
13:57:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but none of my friends do
13:57:41  <KenjiE20> I generally prefer watching stuff in it's original language as well
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13:58:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really want to watch "Day Watch" in russian ;)
13:59:15  <KenjiE20> Well, this is embarrassing.
13:59:16  <KenjiE20>
13:59:16  <KenjiE20>
13:59:16  <KenjiE20>
13:59:16  <KenjiE20>
13:59:16  <KenjiE20>
13:59:17  <KenjiE20>
13:59:18  <KenjiE20>
13:59:18  <KenjiE20>
13:59:20  <KenjiE20> Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs.
13:59:20  <KenjiE20> urg
13:59:24  <TrueBrain> .....
13:59:24  <KenjiE20> but lol
13:59:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's really no point watching Borat or Br?no in german ;)
13:59:34  <KenjiE20> crappy formatting in that paste
14:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> your client is shit if it does not warn you "you are pasting 10 lines"
14:00:09  <KenjiE20> yes, yes it is
14:00:22  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I have the id_dsa, but not the id_dsa.pub
14:00:27  <TrueBrain> how did that happen ...
14:00:37  * KenjiE20 is waiting for another client to go from rc to stable
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14:03:31  <Ammler> shouldn't be a problem to make a public one from the private, is it?
14:03:50  <TrueBrain> it isn't a problem at all, I just wonder how the .pub got lost
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14:04:03  <Ammler> moved instead copied :-)
14:04:10  <TrueBrain> via linux, to a remote system?
14:04:15  <TrueBrain> I have NO idea how I would do that :p
14:04:17  <petern> smv
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14:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> mount -t sshfs?
14:05:36  <TrueBrain> not something I use
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14:26:07  <Dragoon_Jett> When you click on your vehicles beside them there is a number and under that a circle, what does the circles colour mean and the number?
14:29:38  *** MizardX [~MizardX@81-224-42-23-no80.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
14:30:00  <Yexo> are you talking about the vehicle list?
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14:31:06  <Dragoon_Jett> So you have a train station
14:31:06  <Dragoon_Jett> and you click on it
14:31:06  <Yexo> in that case the number is the vehicle number, and the colour is about the profit
14:31:06  <Dragoon_Jett> And in the bottom right
14:31:06  <Dragoon_Jett> Oh ok
14:31:06  <Dragoon_Jett> So uh whats the specific colours profits
14:31:18  <Yexo> I'm not sure what the exact values are, but I think < 0 = red, 0-20.000 = orange and 20.000+ = green (all in pound)
14:31:49  <Dragoon_Jett> The only colours I have seen is grey and yellow
14:32:38  <Yexo> grey = younger then 2 years, so no colour assigned yet
14:33:21  <Dragoon_Jett> Thanks
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15:20:46  <[wito]> Yexo: Isn't the limit 10k??
15:21:12  <[wito]> (that is, the 100% min-profit ranking value cutoff)
15:21:28  <Yexo> in that case that's likely, as I said, I'm not sure on the exact numbers
15:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anyone know an easy way to parse an XML file? (python, or something)
15:22:33  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: I know several easy ways
15:22:42  <[wito]> and a couple of mind-bendingly complicated ones. :P
15:22:55  <[wito]> Small-footprint or large-footprint?
15:23:43  <Eddi|zuHause> like for <each entry that contains a <name> tag that matches "string">: do something with this entry
15:24:01  <[wito]> hmm
15:24:09  <[wito]> well, you basically have two options
15:24:24  <[wito]> 1) Build a DOM tree (most languages have a method for doing this) and do some XPath magick
15:24:34  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, going linearly through the file, and doing something in case of finding anything interesting
15:24:46  <[wito]> 2) Set up an event-based parser and burn through that file at an ungodly speed
15:25:12  <[wito]> The first approach is (arguably) simpler; the latter is faster
15:25:27  <[wito]> And if you are planning to go through the entire file anyway; the second approach might be the best
15:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i want to go through the entire file, do something with the interesting parts, and then throw it away
15:26:58  <[wito]> Well, I'm not entirely sure how that would be done in python; but in C it's generally a matter of handing a number of callbacks to a libxml2 function and then telling it to parse
15:27:11  <[wito]> in all likelyhood, python has a similar approach available
15:27:52  <[wito]> additionally, the python standard library might contain some class named xmlParser or some variant thereof; intended for subclassing to implement the callbacks directly on the object responsible for parsing
15:28:32  <Alberth> there are xml in the standardlib of python
15:28:41  <Alberth> +libs
15:28:52  <[wito]> or you might have to create a class with some specificically named methods and hand that to an instance of xmlParser (or whatever name the class has) and implement the callbacks as such
15:29:06  <Alberth> variant 2 is called SAX parser
15:29:22  <[wito]> Alberth: yes, but what is the python class called?
15:29:25  <[wito]> SAXParser?
15:29:28  <[wito]> SAXXMLParser?
15:30:44  <TrueBrain> xml.sax
15:30:52  <TrueBrain> or xml.minidom
15:31:08  <[wito]> well, I suppose that should've been rather obvious
15:31:10  <Rubidium> xpath?
15:31:12  <TrueBrain> I dislike sax, assumes too much :p
15:31:26  <[wito]> TrueBrain: What assumptions in particular are you referring to?
15:31:35  <Rubidium> or was it xquery?
15:31:37  <TrueBrain> well, you need to make parsers, which parse a given blob of XML data
15:31:46  <Alberth> xml.sax.xmlreader seems a nice starting point http://docs.python.org/library/xml.sax.reader.html?highlight=xml#module-xml.sax.xmlreader
15:31:50  <TrueBrain> I dislike that approach :) Only works if you know 100% sure a given format is always the same :p
15:32:03  <[wito]> TrueBrain: That's a programmers assumption
15:32:08  <[wito]> not a parsers assumption
15:32:21  <TrueBrain> DOM at least doesn't assume a single thing
15:32:44  <[wito]> TrueBrain: You still have to choose how to explore the DOM
15:32:59  <TrueBrain> yup, but there you can much easier catch changes/problems
15:33:07  <[wito]> TrueBrain: I don't see how
15:33:14  <TrueBrain> after working with both for days, I do :p
15:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i'm currently at "xml=minidom.parse('test.xml')"
15:33:49  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: welcome to libxml2 hell ;)
15:33:51  <Eddi|zuHause> let's see if i can achieve anything from this point...
15:34:06  <TrueBrain> for node in xml.childNodes[0].childNodes: print node :p
15:34:13  <TrueBrain> (assuming you have 1 parent tree)
15:34:14  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: elementTree is said to be simpler to use.
15:34:33  <[wito]> Indeed
15:34:45  <[wito]> TrueBrain: You always have 1 parent tree
15:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> TooMuchInformationSimultaneouslyException
15:35:10  <TrueBrain> [wito]: says who?
15:35:20  <[wito]> TrueBrain: The XML specc, that's who
15:35:30  <TrueBrain> and what happens when you violate those specs?
15:35:30  <[wito]> Every element except the root element has exactly one parent
15:35:48  <[wito]> TrueBrain: then any well-behaved parser will throw an absoulte shit-fit
15:35:56  <TrueBrain> libxml2 parses it
15:36:07  <TrueBrain> this should be invalid: <root>..</root><root2></root2>
15:36:11  <TrueBrain> but it happens
15:36:23  <[wito]> TrueBrain: And when it does, libxml2 gets very, very angry
15:36:30  <TrueBrain> nope, it is accepted
15:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> >>> xml.childNodes
15:36:36  <Eddi|zuHause> [<xml.dom.minidom.DocumentType instance at 0xb7a5e04c>, <DOM Element: tv at 0xb7
15:36:42  <[wito]> TrueBrain: Really?
15:36:48  <TrueBrain> try it
15:36:52  <[wito]> TrueBrain: I'd need to see a test case for it.
15:36:58  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: try using xquery to find the nodes you want; that's meant for searching in xml
15:37:17  <[wito]> Rubidium: XQuery is often times overkill; XPath is a *lot* simpler
15:37:23  <[wito]> and can easily do what he needs
15:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> this is about what i expected when asking for xml...
15:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> damnit...
15:37:55  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: Heh.
15:37:57  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: 2 things you need to know about minidom: getElementsByTagName() and getAttribute()
15:38:06  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: try irc.freenode.net#xml
15:38:34  <TrueBrain> and to get text out a text-node:
15:38:35  <[wito]> Lots of very talented people all up in there.
15:38:35  <TrueBrain>         text = ''
15:38:37  <TrueBrain>         for n in node.childNodes:
15:38:38  <TrueBrain>                 if n.nodeType == Node.TEXT_NODE: text += n.data.encode('utf-8')
15:38:40  <TrueBrain>         return text
15:39:06  <TrueBrain> (one of the things I hate about XML ... text doesn't have to be in a single node :()
15:39:24  <Alberth> shouldn't that be decode() ?
15:39:39  <TrueBrain> no, I encode it to Python universal bla :p (wchar)
15:39:43  <[wito]> TrueBrain: Some DOM parsers have text-node normalization methods
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15:40:22  <TrueBrain> the DOM parsers in browsers are the worst :(
15:40:33  <TrueBrain> IE and FF handle things COMPLETELY different :(
15:41:06  <[wito]> ya
15:41:15  <[wito]> JavaScript DOM parsers can be pretty bad.
15:41:30  <[wito]> Well
15:41:40  <[wito]> A JS DOM parser wouldn't be so bad; I suppose
15:41:51  <[wito]> but a JS DOM *libraries*
15:41:52  * [wito] shudders
15:42:11  <TrueBrain> Alberth: I gave up trying to understand when to do decode() and encode() :p It isn't always as sane as I would hope ...
15:43:05  <Alberth> ok :)  the docs namely say the opposite: "...in a Unicode context, encoding converts a Unicode object to a plain string using a particular character set encoding..."
15:43:45  <TrueBrain> Alberth: ah, yes, 'n.date' is already in wchar
15:43:49  <TrueBrain> Alberth: ah, yes, 'n.data' is already in wchar
15:43:51  <TrueBrain> typing is hard :p
15:44:16  <Alberth> so no encode or decode should be needed :)
15:44:19  <TrueBrain> in this case I need it to be a printable string, to avoid encodes later on in the process ... mostly because Python can be REALLY stupid :(
15:44:32  <TrueBrain> let me tell you this:
15:44:33  <TrueBrain> fd = os.popen('echo "' + track['title'] + '" | iconv -f "UTF-8" -t "ASCII//TRANSLIT"')
15:44:42  <Eddi|zuHause> http://nopaste.php-q.net/248222 <- that's what i have now (that's the way i go through every tree...)
15:44:43  <TrueBrain> Python refuses to do a TRANSLIT
15:45:10  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: use SAX
15:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause> of course it dies with UnicodeEncodeError
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15:46:25  <TrueBrain> Alberth: and the encoding is not needed if I would have written: text = u'' ;) :p
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15:46:51  <TrueBrain> I think there things went wrong, and I got annoyed by the endless unicode shit :p
15:47:11  <Alberth> I never used unicode, but I am afraid one day I have to
15:47:23  <TrueBrain> avoid it as long as possible :)
15:47:33  <Hirundo> MAX_LENGTH_COMPANY_NAME_PIXELS cannot be relied upon with variable font size, can it?
15:47:35  <TrueBrain> and if you start using it, make sure your shell is also UTF ready ......
15:47:43  <[wito]> Alberth: The point at which you "have to" is the point at which everything everywhere is UTF-8. :P
15:48:02  <[wito]> And that is a point to which we are getting rather quickly
15:48:07  <TrueBrain> (my shell is NOT utf-8 ready, and it gives VERY nice effects when working with it ... :'( )
15:48:12  <[wito]> This, as it were, would be a good thing.
15:48:39  <TrueBrain> [wito]: CIFS still is not utf-8 ready, so ... :p
15:48:44  <TrueBrain> (Stupid windows)
15:48:48  <Alberth> except we will never have just the utf-8 encoding only
15:49:10  <[wito]> Alberth: Nah, true.
15:49:20  <[wito]> A lot of stuff will continue to use UTF-16 internally
15:49:31  <[wito]> (It is, apparently, faster)
15:49:46  <TrueBrain> btw, other stupid fact about UTF: the iconv line above, only works when you are in UTF-8 .. else it doesn't know how to TRANSLIT
15:50:36  <TrueBrain> (and I ask you why it matters for a conversion tool in what locale your shell is?)
15:50:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the real question is, why is '\xf6' part of an utf-8 string?
15:50:48  <[wito]> hmm
15:50:52  <[wito]> that doesn't sound right at all
15:51:33  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: what would be wrong with it? :P
15:51:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the file is utf-8-encoded and contains an utf-8-?
15:51:40  <Alberth> Hirundo: it seems it is only used as a max width of some query window (in the 30 seconds I looked at it)
15:52:05  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: does it hang on your 'print'?
15:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so the parser converts the utf-8-? to \xf6 and declares the resulting string as utf-8?
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15:52:15  <[wito]> TrueBrain: A "good" UTF-8-string shouldn't contain xF6
15:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:52:23  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: is your shell utf-8?
15:52:27  <Alberth> [wito]: all asian countries will use a different encoding
15:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:52:49  <[wito]> Alberth: Different from one another, too. :P
15:52:50  <TrueBrain> is your locale utf-8? :)
15:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:53:16  <TrueBrain> that mostly gives me the problems, as when printing the utf-8 string is converted to something the stdout supports (or what python things)
15:53:19  <TrueBrain> given all kinds of crap :p
15:53:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and the file says <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
15:53:21  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: The character in question is a latin-1 character
15:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know if anybody listens to that...
15:53:32  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: I'd run that file thru'
15:53:36  <[wito]> lint or something
15:53:47  <[wito]> because it sounds as if it's actually latin-1
15:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i have the file open in kate, and there it is a properly encoded utf-8-?
15:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so the parser mistreats it somehow
15:54:16  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: You are certain that the file is UTF-8?
15:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:54:38  <[wito]> If so; it appears as if the parser is trying to convert it to latin-1
15:54:56  <[wito]> (if the resulting stream contains an 0xF6, anyway)
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15:56:00  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: either way: welcome to the utf-8 hell :)
15:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> 00000010  22 3e 44 72 65 69 20 4b  c3 b6 63 68 65 20 77 6f  |">Drei K..che wo| <--- this is the section of the raw file
15:56:13  <TrueBrain> two hells you entered in a short period of time .. nice ;)
15:56:26  <[wito]> that's UTF-8, all right
15:56:29  <Eddi|zuHause> (Pdb) node.data
15:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> u'Drei K\xf6che wollen
15:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> this is what python makes of it
15:56:39  <TrueBrain> when?
15:56:39  <[wito]> and that's latin-1
15:56:43  <TrueBrain> (where do you print that?)
15:57:40  <[wito]> I do believe this is a python issue, rather than an UTF- or XML- issue
15:58:01  <[wito]> What the precise issue is, however, I can only speculate at
15:58:23  <TrueBrain> I read and write UTF-8 via minidom without any problem, so it is most likely a user issue ;) :p
15:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i told you every line i wrote...
15:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> minidom.parse('filename')
15:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and then the recursive function i pasted
15:59:59  <TrueBrain> btw, what is your sys.getdefaultencoding()?
16:00:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r16799 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: When drawing articulated road vehicles in the vehicle details window, draw as many parts as the window fits instead of always up to a vehicle length of 80/8.
16:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "ascii" it says
16:00:54  <Alberth> that should give some trouble :)
16:01:01  <[wito]> Indeed
16:01:04  <TrueBrain> all my systems always give ascii as return
16:01:11  <TrueBrain> I still wonder what Python means with it :p
16:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i never changed anything with that...
16:03:48  <TrueBrain> lol, here I get an expat error when I try to load a utf-8 char :p
16:04:25  <TrueBrain> stupid kwrite :)
16:07:07  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: if node.nodeType == 3: print node.data <- works fine
16:07:13  <TrueBrain> (nodeType 3 is 'textNode')
16:07:19  <TrueBrain> was too lazy to import the enum :p
16:07:37  <TrueBrain> works fine as: it prints the utf-8 char fine
16:07:56  <TrueBrain> problem about: print node
16:08:00  <TrueBrain> is that it becomes: print str(node)
16:09:50  <TrueBrain> and I suggest not to worry how Python internally stores your string
16:09:57  <TrueBrain> (which happens to be \xf6 :p)
16:11:03  <TrueBrain> str(node) btw always converts to getdefaultencoding, which is ascii as we just noticed, which can't convert \xf6 (well .. dah :p)
16:12:11  <TrueBrain> I guess minidom has a nice bug in __str__ routine ... "" + node.data instead of u"" + node.data :p
16:12:29  <TrueBrain> then str(node) would go to utf8 ... oh well :)
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16:13:26  <blobbo> Hey all.
16:13:59  <blobbo> I'm stuck on a server with a jerk who keeps blocking my network with pieces of rail.  Any way I can deal with this?  The admin doesn't seem to be responsive and/or present
16:14:49  <TrueBrain> then you are a bit out of luck :'(
16:15:25  <blobbo> Shucks.
16:15:52  <blobbo> I hate that.  I'm a nice guy and I just like playing little construction games.  What's wrong with people?!
16:16:06  <TrueBrain> I wonder that myself every day ..
16:16:41  <TrueBrain> I guess OpenTTD does need a player-rating system :p
16:16:44  <Rubidium> blobbo: ask that to the people that... uhm... steal, kill, ...
16:17:11  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: and how do you intend to do that?
16:17:23  <TrueBrain> I showed you plans for that a few times over the past few years :p
16:17:42  <TrueBrain> (damn, we are getting OLD!)
16:17:54  <Alberth> yes, that happens all by itself
16:18:02  <TrueBrain> :'(
16:18:04  <TrueBrain> STOP THE HURTING!
16:18:07  <TrueBrain> oeh, food
16:18:09  <TrueBrain> bbl
16:18:16  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: apparantly there was something with those plans that caused them not to be implemented
16:18:40  <Rubidium> probably the "it doesn't really help" problem; it might stop a few, but others won't be stopped
16:18:43  <blobbo> I'd love it if there was a vote system where people can deal with it themselves when the admins aren't present
16:19:09  <Alberth> until the bad boys vote against you
16:19:29  <Rubidium> blobbo: so A and B are playing nice, then C joins and starts annoying you -> you vote C from the server. Now C is mad and joins 3 times and votes A and B from the server
16:19:53  <Rubidium> the ONLY was is just to AVOID servers WITHOUT admins
16:20:27  <blobbo> hrm, I suppose.
16:20:33  <blobbo> I'll have to be more careful about joining games.
16:20:44  <blobbo> I haven't played in a year or so - kudos on all the improvements!
16:20:54  <blobbo> Alas, I'm afraid I've quickly remembered why I stopped! :(
16:21:16  <Rubidium> something that can't be solved by writing lines of code...
16:21:57  <TrueBrain> [18:18] <Rubidium> probably the "it doesn't really help" problem; it might stop a few, but others won't be stopped <- nope, it was the: I don't have time to do it, and nobody else cares enough to do it
16:23:06  <TrueBrain> my latest draft was pretty solid when it comes down to fair-play users
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16:23:32  <TrueBrain> (central authorization system and stuff :p)
16:24:02  <TrueBrain> but there are simply not enough online players to put all that effort in it :)
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17:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so... they (frenoode/python.de) told me minidom is shit, i should use xml.etree.ElementTree
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17:29:08  <fonsinchen> You might want to have a look at FS#54
17:29:26  <fonsinchen> I have posted a patch that cleans up the smallmap and makes the code much more understandable
17:29:34  <fonsinchen> and it makes the smallmap zoomable
17:29:54  <fonsinchen> (and it solves all the problems mentioned earlier in the thread)
17:30:51  <fonsinchen> Unfortunately it's 23kb, but a lot of that are comments.
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17:46:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r16800 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
17:46:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 29 changes by ww9980
17:46:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: galician - 108 changes by Condex
17:46:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by Roujin
17:46:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: indonesian - 3 changes by prof
17:46:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
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17:57:39  <tdev> hi all
17:58:00  <tdev> my ottd patch is 3 years old and being actively worked on :D
17:58:40  <[wito]> tdev: fantastic ^_^
17:58:47  <[wito]> But what does it *do*?
17:58:57  <tdev> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/54
17:59:22  <[wito]> tdev: so that's "Nothing yet?" ;)
17:59:25  <[wito]> Nah, I keed.
17:59:27  <[wito]> Lovely ^_^
18:01:03  <[wito]> so is cargodest dead?
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18:02:56  <tdev> [wito]: i REALLY dont hope so
18:03:16  <tdev> look at my patch, its 3 years old and still not dead. cargodest is really young ;)
18:03:25  <[wito]> Thing is, cargodist is nice and all; but I like cargodest better :(
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18:46:34  <TrueBrain> lalalalalalaaaaa
18:49:50  <Rubidium> tdev: it's quite likely not the same patch it was 3 years ago; it's rewritten a few times IIRC
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19:00:24  <tdev> Rubidium: yes, but i hope i contributed at least a tiny tiny bit ;)
19:00:38  <TrueBrain> the number of the bug report! :p :p
19:01:37  *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:01:41  <Alberth> and the subject :p
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19:03:17  <PeterT> !seen yorick
19:04:34  <Ammler> [20:03] <[wito]> Thing is, cargodist is nice and all; but I like cargodest better   <-- what's the difference?
19:05:09  <PeterT> lol
19:05:11  <TrueBrain> 'i' vs 'e'
19:05:13  <TrueBrain> so much is obvious
19:05:49  <KingJ> Cargodest made it easier for me to see passenger flows than dist
19:06:02  <KingJ> That might have changed in the later builds with the new map however
19:06:07  <TrueBrain> cargodest alone is almost unplayable
19:06:14  <TrueBrain> (well .. to make a profit, that is)
19:06:26  <KingJ> I did hear about that bug
19:06:35  <TrueBrain> what bug?
19:06:45  <KingJ> I've had to abandon my current cargodist game though, it's getting a bit unplayable due to the amount of vehicles i've got
19:07:12  <KingJ> And by extension, the large network
19:07:15  <Ammler> for me, the whole dest thing is way too complicated.
19:07:30  <TrueBrain> it also requires another economy model
19:07:35  *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd
19:07:58  <KingJ> Cargo/pax destination is what I always wanted to see in TTD, it encourages network building rather than just A/B routes
19:08:28  <Ammler> KingJ: is that really so?
19:08:42  <Ammler> as you still need a route until it gets effect
19:09:24  <KingJ> Previously, i'd only build A/B routes. With cargodist/dest I build multistop lines
19:09:45  <TrueBrain> still it doesn't really encourage it in any way :)
19:10:27  <Ammler> well, something it makes easier, you don't need to make tranfer orders anymore.
19:10:38  <TrueBrain> that is very true
19:12:15  <TrueBrain> but managing a network becomes impossible ... too many cargo :p
19:12:27  <KingJ> Nah, not impossible
19:13:29  <KingJ> I only do it for passengers however, I don't bother with a goods or mail network
19:13:40  <Alberth> Does anybody know what algorithm they use for cargo dest generation?
19:13:45  <Ammler> he, imagine ECS with cargodest, might be fun ;.-)
19:13:53  <TrueBrain> I tried a pax only network with cargodest and cargodist .. both failed horrible multiple times already :p
19:14:28  <TrueBrain> Alberth: I believe cargodest doesn't really have an algorithm, and cargodist uses MPF or what is it called
19:15:08  <Ammler> currently, it is impossible to make a coop cargodist game, nobody there is interested.
19:15:16  <Alberth> The "Mega Piraten Festijn!" :p
19:15:24  <TrueBrain> Alberth: LOL!
19:15:40  <TrueBrain> Ammler: too bad, I might have enjoyed that
19:15:41  <TrueBrain> Alberth: MCF
19:15:46  <TrueBrain> http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist
19:16:06  <Alberth> ah a wiki page. Thank you !
19:16:11  <TrueBrain> cargodist is about the distribution, cargodest is about the network, or at least, that is what I gathered from it
19:16:16  <TrueBrain> Alberth: it should have been the first thing you looked for :p
19:16:48  <TrueBrain> what Celestar told me, cargodest and cargodist are 2 completely different things, where both could be integrated on eachother, but ... htere it got a bit fuzzy :p
19:17:06  <Alberth> true :)
19:17:19  <Ammler> well, at least dist doesn't need boost.
19:17:21  <[wito]> Ammler: I play a lot of ECS with CargoDest
19:17:34  <TrueBrain> Ammler: requiring boost was a big mistake :p
19:17:38  <[wito]> on r15710M :P
19:17:55  <TrueBrain> (in my PERSONAL opinion, to make that perfectly clear :))
19:18:15  <Ammler> oh, indeed, you need to clarify that ;-)
19:18:44  <TrueBrain> Alberth: http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodest <- cargodest, at bottom a VERY small talk about how it works
19:19:08  <Ammler> and the trunk in dest time was very desync and current trunk is just damn stable.
19:19:18  <Alberth> cargodist seems to use a linear decreasing function with distance
19:21:02  <Alberth> and cargodest is really short: "(how OpenTTD picks destinations for cargos) " :)
19:21:08  <TrueBrain> yup
19:21:46  <TrueBrain> but okay .. cargodest alone makes the game not really fun to play (Again, in my personal opinion), and needs something like cargodist to functional normally
19:22:19  * Alberth should try a game of cargodist soon
19:23:00  <TrueBrain> Ammler: yeah, Ammler, build us a carogdist coop server :p
19:23:31  <Ammler> it is running at same address, as cargodest was running
19:23:47  <TrueBrain> yeah ... and I played so much cargodest on a coop server, I know exactly where that is
19:23:48  <TrueBrain> lol
19:23:50  <TrueBrain> silly Ammler
19:24:27  <Ammler> dev.openttdcoop.org:3981
19:24:41  <TrueBrain> What is your phonenumber? It is in the phone book! What is your name? It is next to my number!
19:24:43  <TrueBrain> :p
19:24:56  <Ammler> :-P
19:25:03  <Ammler> :-)
19:25:46  <TrueBrain> git dirs without repacks are INCREDIBLE slow :(
19:26:29  <Alberth> I read that at #mercurial, I think :p
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19:26:46  <Ammler> it runs btw. with the last version from compile farm
19:26:57  <TrueBrain> which is? :p
19:26:58  <Ammler> which has a M in the rev name.
19:27:15  <Ammler> [21:27] <Tycoon> Ammler: Game version is g714743faM-cargodist
19:27:16  <TrueBrain> somehow I think Ammler don't want us to join ...
19:27:32  <TrueBrain> do you also have an url to the binaries?
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19:27:41  <Ammler> #openttdcoop.dev
19:27:46  <TrueBrain> weird url :p
19:28:11  <Ammler> http://mz.openttdcoop.org/bundles/cargodist/g714743faM-cargodist/
19:28:21  <TrueBrain> thank you :)
19:28:54  <TrueBrain> bah, my libicui18n is wrong version
19:28:56  <TrueBrain> stupid icu
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19:29:47  <TrueBrain> oh well .. no cargodist today :) Tnx anyway Ammler
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19:30:02  <Ammler> since that ciu thing
19:30:23  <Ammler> I can't use compile farm binaries, either.
19:30:36  <TrueBrain> every library that goes to a new version is annoying
19:30:39  <TrueBrain> it takes a while ..
19:30:43  <TrueBrain> expat was a problem a while back too
19:30:58  <Ammler> earlier, I just had to symlink some libs.
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19:31:54  <Alberth> good night all
19:31:59  <TrueBrain> night Alberth
19:31:59  <PeterT> night
19:32:09  <Ammler> he? good night.
19:33:53  <Alberth> Ammler: I don't know how to set vertical resize step dynamically in nested widgets atm, and I don't feel like thinking deeply about that problem, so I quit now :)
19:34:04  <TrueBrain> hehe
19:34:11  <TrueBrain> don't hurt your brain too much ;)
19:34:24  <Ammler> ok :-)
19:34:34  <Ammler> is that a bug from Hirundo?
19:35:55  <Alberth> no, it's what you get when you want to get rid of fixed font and sprite sizes.
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19:37:11  <Alberth> I can compute the size, but I cannot inject the resize step in the computation easily
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19:40:08  <Ammler> he, all the water industries I connected died.
19:42:17  <PeterT> i dont know if this is the place to ask.......once i download autopilot, where do i put the files?
19:42:34  <Ammler> same dir as openttd
19:43:02  <Ammler> well, we have a folder called autopilot in openttd
19:43:10  <PeterT> ok
19:43:24  <Ammler> and then we copy the bundle to that folder
19:43:26  <PeterT> i figured it out, but dont i download with svn?
19:43:32  <Ammler> cp bundle/* autopilot/ -Rf
19:43:48  <Ammler> so you can make openttd with running server
19:44:10  <Ammler> PeterT: you should use AP+
19:44:25  <PeterT> im download whatever this is: http://svn.openttdcoop.org/tools/autopilot/
19:44:52  <Ammler> do you have windows server?
19:45:09  <PeterT> OS? no
19:45:21  <Ammler> then use branch AP+
19:46:17  <Ammler> http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Autopilot/ap+
19:46:29  <PeterT> so this is what i have, im in tortoise SVN, and im about to download autopilot/branches/ap+ into my ottd directory
19:46:43  <PeterT> correct?
19:46:59  <Ammler> yes
19:47:05  <TrueBrain> Windows? No. Tortoise SVN? WHAT?
19:47:15  <PeterT> ok
19:47:16  <Ammler> hmm, indeed :-)
19:47:28  <TrueBrain> inconsistancy detected
19:47:30  <TrueBrain> aborting
19:47:31  <TrueBrain> desync
19:47:33  <TrueBrain> *KILL*
19:48:00  <Ammler> afaik ap+ doesn't work with windows
19:48:17  <Ammler> and non-ap+ doesn't work with openttd trunk
19:48:36  <PeterT> am i doing it right or not!?
19:48:37  <Ammler> but not sure about the later, as it is a year ago.
19:48:46  <Ammler> is your OS windows?
19:49:29  <PeterT> windows vista, yes
19:49:41  <TrueBrain> lalala
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19:50:19  <Ammler> well, you can try, I just have no idea about, but something I know is, you need to convert openttd to console tool
19:50:56  <Ammler> I would say, it is easier to setup a linux box.
19:53:22  <PeterT> ok
19:56:15  <PeterT> ok, i downloaded ap+ to a folder called "autopilot" in my openttd 0.7.0 install directory
19:57:42  <PeterT> Ammler: what do i do now?
19:58:07  <Ammler> :-D you won't give up?
19:58:23  <PeterT> why would i give up?
19:58:33  <Ammler> because it doesn't work on windows?
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19:58:37  <PeterT> why, whats different from openttdcoop?
19:58:48  <PeterT> why does nothing work on windows?!
19:59:00  <TrueBrain> because Windows is a piece of crap?
19:59:01  <Tefad> PeterT: ask Steve Ballmer
19:59:28  <PeterT> ugh, so ottdcoop is on linux?
19:59:34  <Tefad> huh? no?
19:59:48  <Tefad> i thought ottdcoop was just a superset of ottd
19:59:53  <Tefad> certain GRFs
20:00:05  <TrueBrain> ottdcoop is a community group :p
20:00:06  <KenjiE20> ottdcoop is a style of play undertaken by a group of people
20:00:12  <KenjiE20> that's about all there is to it :P
20:00:33  <Tefad> well yeah, but there's a way to configure openttd to be ottdcoop compatible ; )
20:00:37  <TrueBrain> they only release cool tools :p
20:00:39  <Ammler> openttdcoop are the best players of openttd
20:00:39  <PeterT> but the servers, run on autopilot, so someone must have linus?
20:00:53  <TrueBrain> Tefad: euh .. lol?
20:00:55  <KenjiE20> slightly biased there Ammler :D
20:01:04  <Ammler> shht
20:01:08  <TrueBrain> PeterT: the games they host are hosted on linux, yes
20:01:24  <TrueBrain> but most developers here have a non-windows machine
20:01:28  <KenjiE20> though anything that can run expect should technically be able to run autopilot
20:01:34  <TrueBrain> (most, not all, there are a few who still use windows :p)
20:01:39  <KenjiE20> afai understand it
20:01:50  <PeterT> oh thats too bad, I really liked autopilot
20:02:05  <Ammler> I guess, the problem on windows are the addtional tools which are needed
20:02:22  <Ammler> tcllib something, iirc
20:02:47  <PeterT> can those be obtained?
20:02:50  <PeterT> for windows
20:02:52  *** Trenskow [~trenskow@79.138.240.91.bredband.3.dk] has quit []
20:03:11  <TrueBrain> try it :)
20:03:27  <Ammler> activetcl
20:03:32  <KenjiE20> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tcllib+windows
20:04:05  <PeterT> thanks
20:04:58  <PeterT> whatever, not worth the trouble
20:05:07  <Ammler> yes, indeed
20:05:12  <PeterT> :)
20:07:08  <Ammler> hmm, what's about www.myottd.net
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20:09:52  <Rubidium> Ammler: what about it?
20:10:08  <Ammler> no alternative anymore, also dead. it seems.
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20:10:43  <Ammler> was a cool idea, anyway.
20:11:01  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
20:11:12  <Ammler> sali Nite_Owl
20:11:21  <Rubidium> Ammler: but it resulted in lots of 'dead' servers
20:11:22  <Chruker> Are drive-through busstations more efficient that the original terminus one?
20:11:45  <Nite_Owl> Hello Ammler
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20:12:00  <Chruker> efficient = can handle more busses before they form a conga line
20:12:02  <Ammler> Rubidium: yeah, I know, I had troubles to shutdown my own test server there.
20:12:22  <Ammler> I stopped it and after some time, it was running again.
20:12:52  <Nite_Owl> articulated vehicles can only use drive throughs - other than that it is a matter of opinion
20:13:16  <Ammler> well, it is faster, as the RV doesn't need to turn around.
20:14:25  <Chruker> My AI seems to hit the conga-line at around 90 vehicles in a town with 19 stops
20:15:09  <Chruker> I'll try to see how it handles it with the drive-through ones
20:17:02  <Nite_Owl> for passengers and mail within a town then drive through stops are more efficent
20:17:35  <Nite_Owl> plus they do not take up land that a building could be on
20:18:49  <Nite_Owl> freight is a bit of a toss up with non articulated vehicles
20:20:09  <Chruker> The allow-building-of-drivethrough-statios-on-town-road is off by default, isnt it?
20:21:06  <Nite_Owl> I believe so but will not swear to it
20:22:09  <Nite_Owl> I have had it on for so long
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22:00:52  <mikk36> hey
22:01:05  <mikk36> q: what is the maximum resolution that the game allowes itself to be set ?
22:01:15  <Rubidium> 65535x65535
22:01:30  <mikk36> thank you
22:01:50  <Rubidium> it's unlikely that your OS etc. does support that though
22:01:57  <mikk36> heh, yeah
22:02:11  <mikk36> though, has anyone ever tried ?
22:02:21  <Rubidium> sdl crashes
22:02:44  <Rubidium> -> http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759
22:02:46  <mikk36> tried to write a display adapter for some virtual pc or smth
22:02:58  <mikk36> a display driver*
22:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> smithers?
22:03:24  <Eddi|zuHause> he can write a display adapter for a virtual pc?
22:04:16  <Rubidium> some virtual pc? I only know one
22:04:20  <mikk36> i mean that maybe one could modify/create a driver for using in a virtual pc or so in such way that you could increase the resolution to silly sizes
22:04:25  <mikk36> that it would generate the desktop
22:05:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that is called virtual desktop, has nothing to do with virtual pc
22:05:17  <Rubidium> @calc 65535x65535/1048576
22:05:17  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
22:05:18  <mikk36> right, thoughts are messed up a bit :)
22:05:23  <Rubidium> @calc 65535*65535/1048576
22:05:23  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4095.87500095
22:05:37  <Rubidium> you only need that amount of memory for 8 bits video
22:05:45  <mikk36> in MB ?
22:05:46  <Rubidium> in MB
22:06:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that is pretty much exactly 4GB
22:06:26  <mikk36> not possible with a virtual adapter ?
22:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> might vary from manufacturer's GB though ;)
22:06:51  <mikk36> ofc it would be awfully slow to process :P
22:07:19  <Rubidium> now imagine you're double buffering
22:07:24  <mikk36> yup
22:07:29  <mikk36> slam, 8GB
22:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but it'll be a while until the people start complaining again "i can only resize it to half my 52nd screen"
22:09:15  *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-209-23.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
22:09:18  <Rubidium> even worse... "it won't display my 2048x2048 map"
22:09:18  <mikk36> um, what is the fastest video transportation cable out there ?
22:09:34  <mikk36> i'm just checking that DisplayPort has 8.64Gbps data rate
22:09:37  <Rubidium> fibre optics
22:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing that using VGA cables in parallel won't handle :p
22:10:10  <mikk36> lol
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22:10:56  <Rubidium> *if* you would've asked it about 18 months ago I could've asked how NHK pushes 24 Gbps to their video system
22:11:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well... if you octo-sli your graphics cards, nothing prevents you from putting another 8 screens on each card
22:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> means you have 64 screens ;)
22:11:45  <mikk36> 8 on each ?
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22:21:27  <PeterT> @seen yorick
22:21:27  <DorpsGek> PeterT: yorick was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 6 hours, 27 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <yorick> the water looks nice on the first one
22:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> ever noticed how difficult it is to tell petert and petern apart?
22:24:39  <PeterT> lol
22:24:42  <PeterT> im not a mod
22:24:46  <PeterT> thats how
22:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause> right, you should be banned for being an imposter
22:25:53  * petern bans Eddi|zuHause for highlighting
22:26:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well... i had to say it
22:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it happened to me twice within minutes...
22:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> once in the forum and once here...
22:27:03  <PeterT> !rainbow hi
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22:35:09  <PeterT> whats the name of the airport in amsterdam?
22:35:13  <PeterT> Schipol?
22:35:19  <PeterT> is that how its spelled?
22:35:27  <Rubidium> in or near Amsterdam?
22:35:56  <PeterT> in
22:36:02  <KenjiE20> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=amsterdam+airport
22:36:36  <PeterT> KenjiE20, i didnt have firefox open, i had xchat open
22:36:38  <Rubidium> KenjiE20: but that results the one NEAR amsterdam
22:37:04  * KenjiE20 shrugs
22:37:08  <Rubidium> though I'm having my doubts whether Bijlmermeer is regarded as an airport or not
22:37:34  <Rubidium> El Al had a cargo route to Bijlmermeer
22:38:25  <PeterT> the name was something like Schipol
22:39:27  <Rubidium> that's a quite common typo; even wikipedia redirects to the right page
22:39:44  <PeterT> ok, got it
22:39:47  <PeterT> Schiphol
22:39:57  <PeterT> Schiphol Int'l Amsterdam
22:39:58  <Rubidium> AMS / EHAM is so much easier to remember
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22:41:26  <Rubidium> though why would you be interested in that?
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22:55:06  <Chruker> weird, some of these drive-throug station tiles show a different city as road owner and authority. The surrounding regular towntiles have the right town.
22:55:52  <Rubidium> authority is based on the distance to town, ownership based on who build the damn road
23:00:05  <Rubidium> not to mention that a drive through road stop can have 3 owners, or even 4 but then you're in the infrastructure sharing world
23:00:36  <Chruker> hmm, I just checked what owner and authority some roadtiles have, and after the placement of the drive through station those tiles had changed their roadowner and authority
23:01:23  *** Trenskow [~trenskow@3e6b41c1.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Trenskow]
23:01:26  <Rubidium> road owner shouldn't change
23:02:29  <Rubidium> hmm, never mind... it could
23:03:05  <Chruker> But also authority?
23:03:22  <Rubidium> the authority is linked to the town-id stored in the map array
23:03:34  <Rubidium> so it the town that owns the road bit
23:03:54  <Rubidium> for stations there's not enough space to store the town id, so it just 'guesses' it
23:05:07  <Rubidium> for a player it doesn't really matter anyways
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23:28:14  <Chruker> It just seems very weird that a tile changes authority when you build a drive-through station or demolish the tile.
23:29:18  <Chruker> Also the town it changes to doesnt seem to mind (I dont get a rating).
23:29:41  <Sacro> (>'_')># waffles?
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