Log for #openttd on 10th August 2009:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:51  <OwenS> The XT 286 looks like a cheapo they produced because it was cheaper to make XTs with 286s than 8088s (economy of scale and all)
00:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember talk about a switch from DD to HD 3,5" disks
00:01:40  <SmatZ> OwenS: something like 80386SX
00:01:53  <OwenS> I have a 386SX laptop here :p
00:02:05  <OwenS> It's sitting on my windowsil :p
00:02:11  <SmatZ> oh :)
00:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a 486SX
00:02:31  <SmatZ> I have some too :)
00:02:42  <SmatZ> I have "UMC" 80486 @ 50MHz :)
00:02:50  <TrueBrain> oeh, this was a good day :)
00:02:58  <OwenS> The LTE/386 (20Mhz, 2MB ram) runs GEM fine, which orudge may have at one point been interested in :P
00:03:37  <OwenS> It lacks an inbuilt pointing device but does have a PS/2 port. Which I don't know if is a mouse or keyboard one...
00:03:58  <SmatZ> :)
00:04:08  <OwenS> Mouse one. Didn't work with my Intelimouse though. Strange
00:04:09  <SmatZ> hehe :)
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00:06:42  <OwenS> I think Vesa "Very Long" Local Bus wins the "Stupid and impractical" award: :P
00:07:04  <SmatZ> hehe
00:07:25  <SmatZ> yeah :) I got some VLB boards, graphics card and controllers :)
00:07:39  <SmatZ> good it didn't last long
00:07:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember the time when they sold such things
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00:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause> what's actually so bad about it?
00:08:04  <OwenS> Rather a dodgy bus as well from a signal integrity stand point
00:08:13  <SmatZ> it's looooooooong
00:08:15  <OwenS> Running out the processor bus over 3 cards = not smart
00:08:40  * SmatZ doesn't remember details about the way it works
00:08:42  <SmatZ> like
00:09:04  <OwenS> SmatZ: It's the bus you'd get if you ran a 486 memory bus out over an edge connector. It's an ugly hack
00:09:06  <SmatZ> parts of the bus work at 8MHz (ISA part), and the second part works at... xxx MHz?
00:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes... it's long... but that doesn't explain anything... my first graphics card and my first sound card were extremely long
00:10:16  <SmatZ> well, from my few user experiences, it was hard to make the cards seated
00:10:19  <OwenS> SmatZ: The ISA part is 8mhz and handles interrupts and IO ports. The VLB part handles memory and runs at processor clock. It's pins are directly tied to the processor which isn't designed to drive signals across 3 cards
00:10:32  <SmatZ> when it wasn't perfectly fit, computer didn't boot up
00:10:38  <SmatZ> (start at all)
00:10:56  <SmatZ> OwenS: interesting :)
00:11:04  <glx> of course how can you perfectly seat a card across 2 connectors?
00:11:25  <SmatZ> I had hard times making one computer with VLB run
00:11:36  <SmatZ> when those cards weren't perfectly seated, it didn't start
00:11:44  <SmatZ> and it was extremely hard to make them seated...
00:11:52  <SmatZ> but maybe it was just my bad luck :)
00:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember some computer magazine's review stating something like "the VLB supports 2 cards at 33MHz and 1 card at 50MHz"
00:12:14  <TrueBrain> cool, LoadRunner reinitialized itself over and over and over
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00:12:27  <glx> looking at the pic I'd say it's not a case of luck :)
00:12:35  <OwenS> It's a case of masochism :p
00:12:59  <SmatZ> :)
00:13:24  <glx> it was already possible to incorrectly plug an ISA card
00:13:37  <OwenS> how?!
00:13:41  <SmatZ> :)
00:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i never had problems with placing an isa card
00:15:46  <glx> anyway the only ISA card I tried to plug in the old P120 board never worked (3com)
00:16:04  <glx> but that was a "plug'n'play" issue ;)
00:16:16  <OwenS> I've never used an ISA card :p
00:16:26  <TrueBrain> you are too young
00:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i had plenty of isa cards
00:16:48  <SmatZ> I still have :-p
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00:16:58  <TrueBrain> I remember the first computer with a PCI slot
00:17:05  <TrueBrain> s/the/my
00:17:22  <OwenS> I think the first card I installed was a PCI Voodo 3300 (Or was it a modem? I can't remember :P )
00:17:36  <glx> I still have 4 3com ISA cards :)
00:17:39  <OwenS> Aah... 3dfx... how I miss your boxart
00:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember how i bought my first SVGA card...
00:19:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it was a used one...
00:19:15  <TrueBrain> haha, my bugs in Dune2 seems to come from .. well .. paniced way I trigger interrupts and stuff when moving mouse and pressing keys :p
00:19:20  <TrueBrain> it is not that I wrote it nicely :p
00:19:47  <TrueBrain> I remember the first time I initialized SVGA resolution
00:19:50  <glx> you send too many info at the same time ?
00:19:51  <TrueBrain> it was like: WOW! HOW DID YOU DO THAT?!
00:20:41  <TrueBrain> problem is that my JIT can take a bit of time
00:20:45  <TrueBrain> then it catches up ...
00:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i couldn't find the graphics card in the SC2000 setup, because it was called slightly differently there...
00:21:24  <glx> yeah the fun to find the right card in setup
00:21:32  <TrueBrain> configuring soundcards
00:21:34  <TrueBrain> ....
00:21:37  <TrueBrain> I remember I always gave up
00:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and Siedler crashed when i entered SVGA mode
00:21:55  <TrueBrain> we came such a lng way since then ... Plug&Pray being the first step
00:21:58  <TrueBrain> nowedays everything just .. happens
00:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but Siedler was hellishly unstable anyway
00:22:09  <glx> luckily I always had SB/adlib compatible
00:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause> sound card was easy usually...
00:22:40  <glx> unless on linux
00:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you could usually select "AWE 32" directly, and then enter the always same numbers: 220, 330, 5, 1, 5
00:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> some games even had a working autodetect
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00:23:37  <OwenS> On Windows everything works until it breaks iself. On Linux things tend to come broken but stay working once fixed. The quantity of out of the box breakage on Linux is decreasing  :p
00:24:07  <TrueBrain> yet, we no longer have to fiddle as much we had with DOS stuff :)
00:24:16  <glx> I remember myself needing to compile kernel to have working sound
00:24:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't know linux back then
00:24:38  <glx> stupid crystal sound chip
00:24:55  <TrueBrain> continueing to the next mission really doesn't work
00:24:59  <TrueBrain> screen goes black, and .. that is that :p
00:25:10  <OwenS> Things have never been that bed for me. Original Ubuntu I tried (5.04?) it didn't work, but it did in the then Debian Stable (Sarge) - strangeness :P
00:25:10  <glx> yeah DOS, 1 different boot disk for each game
00:26:07  <glx> OwenS: I started with suse 7.0
00:26:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't use boot disks (usually). i created a batch file where i could replace autoexec.bat/config.sys and then reboot
00:26:12  <TrueBrain> things to do for tomorrow: move interrupt shit to places DOSBox has them too .. allowing even easier cpulog compares :)
00:26:57  <OwenS> glx: I think I tried SuSE first and it failed to netinstall so I burnt a Ubuntu disk... didn't work so I burnt a Debian disk... worked :p
00:27:12  <OwenS> Sorry, it wasn't sound that was broken; it was networking
00:27:24  <OwenS> I didn't test sound as I didn't have any ot play :p
00:27:29  <TrueBrain> for now, I wish you all a good night. SmatZ: thanks again for all your help and insight, couldn't have done it without you :) The rest: thanks for the support ;)
00:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember my first linux installation didn't run well either...
00:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i gave up on it, because i had no internet back then
00:28:57  <OwenS> I think I tried Mandriva as well and that didn't work. I was surprisingly persistent
00:29:26  <glx> I never had problems with mandriva
00:29:58  <OwenS> I somehow managed to end up with an XVWM (?) install with just Firefox :p
00:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> well, my demands at a linux installation were that it ran well enough so i could scrap everything windows related...
00:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't want to dual boot
00:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i don't want to boot
00:30:53  <OwenS> I didn't double boot. I threw away Windows :p
00:31:01  <glx> I have dual boot but I always run windows :)
00:31:10  <glx> when I need linux I start a VM
00:31:20  <OwenS> I always recomend that to switchers because it removes the temptation to be lazy and boot Windows :p
00:32:05  <OwenS> My switch determination may have been related to the fact that MS had recently announced that XP x64 would only be available as an OEM product with x64 processors - very very irritating when you had been running the RC2...
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01:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i still have a windows installlation, but i only ever used that at lan parties
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01:33:00  <Zantor> anyone here?
01:33:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no
01:33:59  <Zantor> lol
01:34:02  <Zantor> hi Eddi; long time
01:34:09  <Zantor> I have a couple questions
01:34:09  <Eddi|zuHause> there is nobody here at 3:33
01:34:17  <Zantor> it's 8:34 for me :P
01:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but the world does not revolve around you
01:34:41  <Zantor> true
01:34:51  <Zantor> my questions are about the coop server
01:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> then maybe you should ask them in the coop channel
01:35:12  <Zantor> that channel is dormant
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01:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that may be because of the time.
01:35:47  <Zantor> and that's because most of the OTTD folk are from Europe, not America :P
01:36:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, then you know what to do.
01:36:33  <Zantor> clarify, please; I can think of several things to do
01:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't know, i cannot help you.
01:37:37  <Zantor> can I host a private coop game?
01:37:41  <Zantor> heh that'
01:37:45  <Zantor> is something I could ask the wiki lol
01:38:05  <KenjiE20|LT> there's nothing special about the coop server, that makes it a coop server
01:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be any different from any other network game?
01:38:20  <KenjiE20|LT> only the players
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02:02:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely certain that he got the answer that he searched for
02:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is not necessarily the answer that he wanted, either)
02:02:32  <KenjiE20|LT> hehe
02:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> damn, i need a DVD drive that i can put on my desk...
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07:08:59  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: emails from FS now contain broken URL
07:09:04  <SmatZ> More information can be found at the following URL:
07:09:06  <SmatZ> /task/3097#comment6463
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09:53:57  <dihedral> morning :-)
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10:25:35  <fjb> Hello
10:25:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17142 /trunk/src/ (base_media_base.h gfxinit.cpp sound.cpp): -Fix [FS#3103] (r17139): MSVC didn't like some template stuff
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10:39:55  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: hihi, that is not useful? Will fix :)
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10:52:03  <TrueBrain> hmm .. why do I have such poor memory .. what did frosch report yesterday .. hmm ..
10:52:58  <TrueBrain> ah, yes
10:53:09  <TrueBrain> hmm .. tricky problem SmatZ :p
10:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what anybody reported yesterday
10:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> all my memor^Wlogs from yesterday are about old games :p
10:55:05  <TrueBrain> hehehehehe
10:55:10  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: I _think_ I fixed it :p
10:55:36  <TrueBrain> hmm .. no ...
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10:56:56  <TrueBrain> which is just stupid, as it should work :(
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10:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i know that problem...
10:58:08  <Eddi|zuHause> everything is correct, but it does not work...
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11:09:28  <TrueBrain> fucking retarded FlySpray with its url scheme ...
11:09:38  <Noldo> huh?
11:11:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17143 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#3097]: NewGRFs sometimes got the wrong string causing crashes later on
11:11:58  <TrueBrain> I think Noldo needs to hear it again, as it really is english:
11:12:00  <TrueBrain> fucking retarded FlySpray with its url scheme ...
11:12:14  <Noldo> :D
11:12:32  <Noldo> in what way it is fucking retarded?
11:12:48  <TrueBrain> that it handles at so many places the stripping and adding of http://
11:12:56  <TrueBrain> that is really REALLY wants to have http:// in front of EVERY url in de pages
11:12:58  <TrueBrain> shit like that
11:13:00  <TrueBrain> completely fucked up
11:13:34  <TrueBrain> there .. when I bypass most of that shit
11:13:36  <TrueBrain> things simply work
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11:31:29  <petern> mmm, absolute urls everywhere
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11:42:10  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: FS is broken, sorting doesn't work
11:42:50  <TrueBrain> retarded stuff
11:44:45  <OwenS> Note to self: Stay the hell away from Flyspray :p
11:48:12  <TrueBrain> euh .. PHP .. how to remove the last char ..
11:48:14  <TrueBrain> can't remember :p
11:48:27  <TrueBrain> ah, like that :p
11:48:53  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: happy? :)
11:49:13  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: works :) yet...
11:50:59  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I moved webstats collection to our new proxy
11:51:04  <TrueBrain> but it shows very little visits :p
11:51:20  <TrueBrain> (36 in 607k hits)
11:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> s/.$//?
11:55:26  <TrueBrain> I think it is related to the fact webalizer doesn't likes ipv6s ...
12:01:04  <TrueBrain> IPv6 support should be in 2.01-10 ... did debian fuck up?
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12:11:36  <TrueBrain> anyone knows a good webserver log analyzer?
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13:21:53  <Akoz> pikaboo
13:22:28  <Rubidium> sorry, but Pikka isn't here and please don't scare him
13:22:38  <Akoz> :<
13:23:16  <Akoz> I'll try to restraint myself
13:24:35  <Akoz> is there a hotkey for quick reply to private messages?
13:25:30  <Akoz> in ottd I mean
13:26:37  <Rubidium> no
13:26:57  <Rubidium> unless there's only a server and one client
13:28:39  <Akoz> sounds like a feature request
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13:30:15  <glx> there's a key combo (ctrl-enter or shift-enter)
13:30:31  <Akoz> ctrl+enter = team
13:30:42  <Akoz> shift+enter = enter = all chat
13:31:01  <Akoz> is there a key combo for private message to the last guy that messaged you?
13:31:09  <Akoz> if not it should be made
13:31:25  <glx> you should code it :)
13:31:31  <Akoz> will do
13:33:22  <Rubidium> though... there's probably no key you can link it to
13:34:01  <Akoz> ctrl+r
13:34:04  <Akoz> or something?
13:34:10  <Akoz> (aka reply)
13:34:27  <Akoz> *as in
13:34:42  <Akoz> easier than clicking it in the menu
13:35:37  <Akoz> and maybe change "private" to the name of the player you are sending the private message to in case you mis-click
13:35:43  <Akoz> in the typing box
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15:54:56  * TrueBrain is happy he can't pass the dune2 security when starting lvl2 :p
15:54:58  <TrueBrain> hihi
15:55:36  <petern> hello what?
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16:00:39  <Ammler> make grfcodec seems broken
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16:02:59  <Ammler> yes, also the one from the compile farm doesn't show the right revision
16:03:59  <Ammler> GRFCodec version 0.9.10 r2171E <-- output from r2177 from the compile farm
16:04:08  <Ammler> and no -s
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16:16:00  <Xaroth> TrueBrain is happy he can't pass the dune2 security when starting lvl2 :p <<< ZOMG HEATHEN!
16:16:15  <TrueBrain> do you know all the answers?! :)
16:16:34  <Xaroth> er, i used to :P
16:16:40  <Xaroth> first food
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16:45:29  <fanioz> good night all.. :D
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17:02:37  <TrueBrain> [Mon Aug 10 2009] [18:52:30] <fanioz> hello truebrain, I didn't found a button to create new project at Where is it ?
17:02:42  <TrueBrain> how much can one person not read ...
17:02:44  <TrueBrain> omg ...
17:03:03  <TrueBrain> (to quote the website: "If you are an AI developer, and want an account here, drop Yexo a message.")
17:06:52  <frosch123> but you may also hand the message over
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17:15:37  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: what question?
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17:30:23  <TrueBrain> frosch123: he left way before I could
17:30:28  <TrueBrain> I am not that quick ;)
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17:33:56  <frosch123> :s
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17:39:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17144 /extra/catcodec/sample.cpp: [catcodec] -Fix (r17141): typos
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17:45:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r17145 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 62 changes by arnaullv
17:45:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
17:45:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 4 changes by silentStatic
17:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 248 changes by miloiw
17:45:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 7 changes by glx
17:46:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17146 /trunk/src/ (mixer.cpp sound.cpp): -Codechange: improve the sample rate conversion a bit
17:49:12  <planetmaker> Rubidium, catcodec has a funny dir usage:
17:49:27  <planetmaker> if I run it like catcodec ~/.openttd/data/
17:49:46  <planetmaker> it outputs sample.sfo in ~/.openttd/data and all the wav files in my current working dir.
17:50:03  <Rubidium> yeah, that's a feature :)
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17:50:15  <planetmaker> intended?!
17:50:29  <Rubidium> no, intended usage: no
17:50:52  <planetmaker> so... what would be intended?
17:51:09  <planetmaker> My expectation would be to create the same kind of dir structure as grfcodec.
17:51:13  <Rubidium> copy the cat to some directory and run it in there, i.e. catcodec
17:51:21  <planetmaker> e.g. output everything in a sub-dir where I'm in.
17:52:27  <Rubidium> planetmaker: cp $@ && catcodec -d
17:54:11  <Rubidium> you might like though
17:54:48  <OwenS> Out of curiosity, why .tar?
17:55:22  <OwenS> As uncompressed archive formats go... I'd have gone for CPIO, since theres only one CPIO format :p
17:55:39  <Rubidium> OwenS: because then you can just chuck it in your data directory and OpenTTD can use it (if you've got a recently enough version of OpenTTD)
17:55:54  <planetmaker> nice, Rubidium  :-)
17:55:59  <OwenS> Rubidium: I mean why choose .tar for the archive format :p
17:56:27  <planetmaker> OwenS, it's a nice and simple standard?
17:56:38  <OwenS> planetmaker: No, it's 4 nice and simple standards :p
17:56:53  <OwenS> Legacy unix, BSD, GNU and USTAR IIRC
17:57:20  <OwenS> Though, tbh, it's largely academic as everyone uses USTAR these days :p
17:58:37  <planetmaker> I only understand half of what you claim here, OwenS , but I have the feeling that I should disagree
17:59:15  <Rubidium> OwenS: because some tools provide better support for tar than cpio?
17:59:30  <planetmaker> Rubidium, does that tar already work or does it still need work in trunk?
17:59:46  <OwenS> planetmaker: You have the classic tar format, and 3 mutually incompatible extensions to it: BSD format, GNU format and UStar format. UStar ("Uniform Standard tar") is the modern standard
17:59:48  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it should already work
18:00:18  <planetmaker> :-) Nice. I think I'll update to completely free then :-)
18:00:33  <Rubidium> OwenS: e.g. 7zip's cpio extracting sucks
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18:00:45  <planetmaker> And good job: it should make creation of a free sound set WAY easier.
18:01:29  <OwenS> I know the Linux kernel embedded CPIO for it's simplicity :p
18:02:19  <Rubidium> planetmaker: please redownload it, because it was buggy :)
18:02:41  <planetmaker> Rubidium, which? the tar or catcodec?
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18:03:00  <Rubidium> tar (and catcodec if not HEAD)
18:03:09  <Wolf01> hello :D
18:04:17  <Rubidium> OwenS: how do you count? I'm reading 'FreeBSD File Formats Manual' about CPIO: PWB format, Old Binary Format, Portable ASCII Format, New ASCII Format, New CRC Format, HP variants, Other Extensions and Variants
18:05:19  <planetmaker> Rubidium, would you advise to add sound to OpenGFX or make it a seperate project?
18:05:32  <Rubidium> planetmaker: definitely a seperate project
18:05:33  <LordAzamath> There was a sound replacement project
18:05:38  <LordAzamath> by orudge
18:05:41  <Rubidium> LordAzamath: I know
18:06:12  <Rubidium> planetmaker: primarily because then you won't have licensing issues
18:06:22  <planetmaker> Licensing issues?
18:06:31  <Rubidium> as I don't see a GPL sound replacement happening
18:06:40  <OwenS> Rubidium: Crap; I forgot cpio had spawned lots of formats too >_<
18:06:51  <planetmaker> Well. If added to OpenGFX, a sound would need to be GPL.
18:07:07  <OwenS> GPL seems like an odd license for graphics tbh :p
18:07:15  <Rubidium> planetmaker: exactly
18:07:39  <OwenS> Most "open source" sounds will be in a Creative Commons license
18:07:40  <frosch123> in any case, you will likely have to prefix tar with a g on solaris, to not get something useful
18:07:55  <Rubidium> <- implements about 40% of the sounds using CC Sampling+ 1.0
18:07:57  <OwenS> frosch123: OpenSolaris uses GNU tar bu default :p
18:08:45  <frosch123> well, usually i am annoyed by solaris 8 or 10 :)
18:08:46  <Rubidium> and for the opensfx tar I took the stuff with a proper license from the wiki
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18:08:59  <OwenS> frosch123: $ which tar -> /usr/gnu/bin/tar
18:09:54  <frosch123> sounds like: cd / ; ln -s /usr/gnu/bin
18:10:09  <frosch123> well, maybe a rm -rf bin in the middle
18:10:33  <OwenS> frosch123: Nope; /usr/gnu/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/X11/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin - Old Solaris tar is still there :p
18:10:43  <OwenS> You get it in single user mode :p
18:10:49  <planetmaker> Rubidium, I guess we should create a repo for opensfx on the devzone then :-)
18:10:54  <planetmaker> And advertize a bit :-)
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18:13:08  <Ammler> Rubidium: is that based on the project orudge started?
18:14:05  <Rubidium> Ammler: kind of, and I kinda forked it
18:14:09  <orudge> ah
18:14:09  <Rubidium> planetmaker: good idea
18:14:17  <orudge> well, most of the original sounds I had were CC-licenced
18:14:20  <orudge> although some are perhaps uncertain
18:14:28  <orudge> contains mostly CC
18:15:31  <Rubidium> orudge: I've taken those, *if* the license was known
18:15:44  <Rubidium> the rest uses an empty wav
18:15:47  <orudge> yep
18:15:53  <orudge> that would seem sensible
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18:16:49  * Rubidium is off for diner though
18:17:52  * Markk has just eaten a pirog (pirozhki)
18:17:55  <OwenS> I really ought to file a bug report about the failure to resize when you toss OpenTTD between desktops
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18:31:52  <Ammler> the CC license of the samples looks compatible with GPL, right?
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18:39:32  <OwenS> Ammler: According to the FSF folks, the CC licenses are incompatible with the GPL IIRC
18:40:37  <Ammler> yeah, but you can use the CC samples and publish it as GPL or do you need keep that CC
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18:40:54  <Ammler> GPL->CC might not be possible
18:41:12  <OwenS> Also, what constitutes source code for a sample?
18:41:31  <Ammler> OwenS: that is the reason for CC ;-)
18:41:43  <Ammler> so they don't have to care about sources.
18:42:06  <OwenS> Ammler: I'd say, for OpenGFX, what constitude source code for graphics? :p
18:42:07  <Ammler> in our case, the wav is the source.
18:42:19  <frosch123> OwenS: the originally recorded stuff, and a file that cuts and mixes and effects them to the result
18:42:28  <Ammler> in opengfx, it is the pcx, sometimes psd sometimes png etc.
18:42:41  <frosch123> easy as pie
18:42:51  <Ammler> the source is what we have :-)
18:43:18  <OwenS> I still feel that graphics/sound should stay CC, but a bit late for that now :p
18:43:26  <Ammler> CC is ugly
18:43:26  <Wolf01> bye, stormy weather :P
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18:43:41  <Ammler> as said, I would miss the source.
18:44:02  <OwenS> Ammler: How would you loose the source if yo ustill had the PCXs etc arround?
18:44:03  <Ammler> the idea for community work is, that you should be able to modify.
18:44:21  <Ammler> OwenS: but you don't need with CC
18:44:36  <Ammler> with GPL, we need to keep those working files
18:44:59  <OwenS> The thing is that, for graphics, any format functions fine as both an output and a source format. It's not like a program where theres a complex irreversible conevrsion
18:45:05  <Ammler> well, we don't have many working files for opengfx.
18:45:14  <Ammler> mostly is plain pcx.
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18:46:12  <Ammler> CC is good for people like Purno who don't like someone else derivate it.
18:46:32  <Ammler> means the only CC license which makes sense imo, is CC-ND
18:46:34  <frosch123> OwenS: wrong, most graphics are created from multiple layers, which loose information when encoded into the final image
18:47:11  <frosch123> and source is not the earliest point you started from, but the preferred form of editing
18:47:32  <frosch123> which is defined by the copyright holder who releases it
18:47:38  <OwenS> Ammler: The -BY-SA license makes most sense to me
18:47:59  <Ammler> that is like GPL without source, so for community just stupid.
18:48:11  <OwenS> BY-SA makes most sense to Wikipedia as well :p
18:48:26  <Ammler> you can use it but you need to decompile self,
18:49:46  <Ammler> wikipedia isn't compiled, so there it doesn't matter.
18:50:35  <Ammler> of course, better to license BY-SA than ND
18:50:52  <OwenS> GPL gets silly for, eg, the content of the virtual world software i'm developing; there, if you took a screenshot, you'd have to include a dump of all the objects in the world with it :p
18:51:43  <Ammler> well, why do you license the screen shot?
18:51:51  <Sacro> i do like CC-BY-SA
18:52:03  <TrueBrain> GPL only suggests that you need to be able to hand over a dump of all the objects on request :p
18:52:32  <Ammler> Sacro: for which content?
18:52:43  <frosch123> [20:50] <OwenS> GPL gets silly for, eg, the content of the virtual world software i'm developing; there, if you took a screenshot, you'd have to include a dump of all the objects in the world with it :p <- so all any screenshot software on a linux system infringes gpl apriori?
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18:53:32  <OwenS> frosch123: Theres a difference between screenshotting the results (I.E. UI) of GPL software and screenshotting GPLed content in said software
18:54:39  <TrueBrain> discusion about screenshots is funny .. there are some cases were people try to sue because someone took a screenshot of a commercial product
18:56:20  <Ammler> CC-BY-SA is best if you don't care and you don't want to take effort for the source.
18:56:46  <Ammler> that is why we help with devzone.
18:57:41  <OwenS> The content of my "public building" virtual worlds will all be CC-BY-SA (I.E. users submitting content to it will have to license it under said license)
18:58:31  <Ammler> so you don't want people making derivates?
18:58:52  <Ammler> (you don't actively support it)
18:59:14  <OwenS> Ammler: I said CC-BY-SA not CC-*-ND :p
18:59:27  <planetmaker> Ammler: a graphics can be edited without much effort from the format you have it supplied...
18:59:33  <Ammler> OwenS: you don't get it :-)
19:01:06  <OwenS> Ammler: People can derive from the content all they want within the confines of the virtual world. If you take the content and use it in your 3D rendering (Quite a substantial task considering you'd have to run through the scripting language to texture it properly :P), you still have to attribute the creator of the content (And me, since it will probably feature models I own :P )
19:02:31  <Ammler> OwenS: I don't know your project, maybe there it is ok.
19:04:04  <Ammler> but take the 32bpp graphics for openttd, there it would be sad, if people just release the final objects and license it with CC-SA, not they also release the source, blend files.
19:04:44  <Ammler> now*
19:05:46  <Ammler> I am not sure, what license they use, but I assume GPL :-)
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19:07:03  <OwenS> As I said though, If I used GPL, when you took a screenshot, you would have to make available on request all the 3d model files and textures it was built from, and a dump of the entities visible - a pretty difficult job :p
19:07:29  <Ammler> sorry, that is silly
19:07:42  <Ammler> maybe in your country :P
19:07:46  <frosch123> like the CC-BY-ND scenarios?
19:07:52  <planetmaker> OwenS: that is plain bullshit what you're telling
19:08:21  <OwenS> planetmaker: Is it so? a 2d raster is the equivilent of binary code for a 3d scene
19:08:45  <Ammler> OwenS: of course it is, but I liked to say it a bit more kindely
19:08:46  <planetmaker> a 2D raster is a 2D raster is a 2D raster. I drew it pixel by pixel and it's my preferred form.
19:08:50  <planetmaker> now it's your turn
19:09:02  <Ammler> frosch123: yes :-)
19:09:04  <planetmaker> prove the opposite.
19:09:29  <OwenS> A 2D raster is implicitly derived from whatever source it was generated. In this case, likely by your 3D card from a scene
19:09:46  <Ammler> OwenS: and if it would, you have the source.
19:10:11  <Ammler> so why not "actively" support it?
19:10:14  <OwenS> Ammler: What happens if you don't dump the property then; someone asks for it in 3 months time, and it's changed?
19:10:19  <Noldo> OwenS: if you make a pdf with gpl:d pdf maker from odf file, do you have to release the odf too?
19:10:39  <OwenS> Noldo: The output of GPLed software is different from something generated from GPLed content
19:11:06  <Noldo> and the difference from screenshot is what?
19:11:23  <Ammler> hmm, do "someone" need to keep history of the source?
19:11:48  <OwenS> Ammler: Virtual worlds get huge. I don't want to increase that size exponentially
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19:12:15  <planetmaker> Noldo: exactly the argument *someone* fails to see.
19:13:14  <OwenS> Noldo: The difference of what from a screenshot?
19:13:15  <Ammler> OwenS: you don't need to keep the source self
19:13:23  <Ammler> you just need to know, who has the source.
19:13:37  <Ammler> then you can forward source requests :-)
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19:13:53  <OwenS> Ammler: If they;re building on my world, me! (It's as if I'm running the git repository)
19:14:12  <Noldo> OwenS: how is the view on the screen different from an output file
19:15:09  <Ammler> OwenS: that is like we would need to license our openttd save archive
19:15:28  <OwenS> Noldo: Because the output file is generated by a GPLed app from content supplied to it - not from the app. The app has applied logic to input to produce an output.  A view of the screen containing a GPL licensed content is derived directly from said content
19:16:30  <planetmaker> Rubidium: using hg. But it's not yet initilized
19:16:35  <planetmaker> e.g. nothing there
19:17:07  <planetmaker> I have a problem with catcodec:
19:17:31  <planetmaker> Aeolus:~/ottd/grfdev/opensfx/sprites ingo$ catcodec -e opensfx.sfo
19:17:33  <planetmaker> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'char const*'
19:17:35  <planetmaker> Abort trap
19:17:48  <planetmaker> taking a clean dir. running catcodec -d
19:18:00  <planetmaker> and then above command to encode again fails here.
19:18:32  <planetmaker> I'll upload an initial version of the repo in a few moments, though
19:18:46  <Noldo> OwenS: and how is the output file not derived directly from the code that is gpled?
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19:19:11  <pavel1269> hello :-)
19:19:18  <pavel1269> have a problem, cant launch clear trunk :-(
19:19:40  <OwenS> Noldo: If I write a file in OpenOffice, how is it derived from OpenOffice?
19:19:56  <OwenS> It's not. OpenOffice paid no part in the creation of the file.
19:20:03  <pavel1269> "Failed to find a sound set. Please acquire a sound set for OpenTTD."
19:20:27  <Noldo> OwenS: so you can write raw odf on your own?
19:20:52  <OwenS> Noldo: If you wanted, yes.
19:20:59  <TrueBrain> OwenS: the license of an output file is identical to the license of the input file if and only if the system managing both does not add any data from itself to it
19:21:08  <TrueBrain> in case of OO this fails (the ODF format clearly adds tons of junks)
19:21:18  <Noldo> OwenS: you can make the screenshot too without the source, if you want
19:21:23  <TrueBrain> therefor the license of OO states that the license of the input file is equal to the license of the output file .. but this is a choice of OO
19:21:57  <TrueBrain> 'tools' are funny in their licenses :p
19:22:14  <OwenS> TrueBrain: What OO adds is legally "trivial" and not copyrightable. But if a GPL tool adds it's own source code, then yes, the output falls under the GPL until you excise said source
19:22:49  <TrueBrain> OwenS: well, that is not completely true, but okay, not important :)
19:23:24  <TrueBrain> (an excel sheet can do non-trivial stuff :p)
19:23:36  <TrueBrain> sorry: spreadsheet :p
19:23:52  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Yes, but what Excel stores in the file isn't a significant enough part of Excel :p
19:24:05  <TrueBrain> OwenS: on that not everyone agrees
19:24:17  <TrueBrain> but okay .. I am trying to find a few sues about screenshots
19:24:22  <TrueBrain> they were pretty amusing
19:24:28  <TrueBrain> it came down to: it is said to be fair-use
19:24:41  <TrueBrain> (to make a screenshot of a game and use it for yourself)
19:25:17  <OwenS> TrueBrain: I don't want, as a random example, myself being sued by people for using images of their stuff in promotion :p
19:25:57  <TrueBrain> so making a screenshot of GPL licensed objects won't be suable (in most countries)
19:26:00  <TrueBrain> it is just silly :p
19:26:22  <OwenS> TrueBrain: It's probably not fair use if I'm using a screenshot in advertising material ;-)
19:26:35  <TrueBrain> that are completely different stories
19:26:52  <TrueBrain> as that is commercial gain
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19:27:30  <pavel1269> where do i have to add, or what do i have to type in config.cfg, or where i can get your sound set to make clear trunk to run? :-/
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19:27:47  <TrueBrain> bad Akoz! :p
19:28:27  <Akoz> :p
19:28:30  <Akoz> accident..!
19:28:51  <Akoz> ctrl+v with the wrong content
19:29:00  <TrueBrain> ghehe
19:29:01  <TrueBrain> nasty
19:29:12  <Akoz> poor planetmaker
19:29:16  <Akoz> I hope he didnt autoignore me
19:29:22  <TrueBrain> haha :)
19:29:27  <Akoz> although I would if I was him
19:29:55  <Akoz> so in the language files.. are the seperators spaces or tabs?
19:30:06  <TrueBrain> :
19:30:15  <TrueBrain> (if you would have opened any, you would have seen)
19:31:09  <Akoz> right
19:31:16  * pavel1269 feels ignored
19:31:18  <Akoz> but in coding its tab right?
19:31:29  <TrueBrain> in C the ; is the seperator
19:31:32  <TrueBrain> in Python it is \n
19:31:55  <TrueBrain> pavel1269: I guess nobody knows the answer .. that stuff is all very new
19:32:11  <pavel1269> ahh god, thanks al least for an answer :-)
19:32:39  <Akoz> I ment the spacer
19:32:47  <pavel1269> there are only spaces
19:32:49  <pavel1269> no tabs
19:32:54  <TrueBrain> Akoz: check the wiki, it has the coding style
19:33:03  <Akoz> right
19:33:05  <TrueBrain> pavel1269: really? Then I think I have the wrong source open ...
19:33:25  <Ammler> pavel1269:
19:33:32  <pavel1269> Ammler: i have
19:34:36  <pavel1269> TrueBrain: really? open some language file and see yourselves, only " ", not tabs
19:34:43  <TrueBrain> pavel1269: read his question ;)
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19:34:55  <pavel1269> TrueBrain: i know, but i understand what he mean :-)
19:35:08  <TrueBrain> [21:31] <Akoz> but in coding its tab right? <- that was his last question
19:35:26  <andythenorth> GPL: the output of a program is not the same as the program.  A screenshot is generally not the program.  GPL is pretty clear and easy on this (sorry for bump), was eating dinner).
19:35:58  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: GPL is clear on that? So inside COPYING it states that screenshots is allowed? (as then it would be clear)
19:36:07  <glx> pavel1269: do you have *.obs files ?
19:36:37  <pavel1269> glx: a lot :-)
19:37:01  <glx> there should be only 2 (in bin/data)
19:37:05  <andythenorth> I've read nothing specific on GPL about screenshots, but the GPL FAQS themselves are clear and easy reading.
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19:37:27  <andythenorth> The program is usually a compiled whole, the thing that is distributed.
19:37:31  <TrueBrain> and remember that the issue was not a GPL program, but GPL objects inside a program
19:37:32  <pavel1269> agg obs, not obj, sorry
19:37:34  <pavel1269> *ahh
19:37:42  <pavel1269> and yes
19:38:03  <TrueBrain> (which is NOT part of the program)
19:38:06  <andythenorth> The source has to be made available for the whole.  Data / content is usually *not* part of the whole.  Therefore source doesn't need to be made available.  But hey, don't rely on me, go read the FSF
19:38:11  <pavel1269> orig_dos.obs/orig_win.obs
19:38:27  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: and the source of the objects? Exactly, that was what the conversation was about :)
19:38:42  <pavel1269> sorry, my problem!
19:38:43  <andythenorth> :)
19:38:59  <pavel1269> glx: i had them, but not coppyed .... they are new?
19:39:00  <andythenorth> If it's a sound file included in a GPL grf, make the source available.
19:39:03  <andythenorth> easy no?
19:39:04  <pavel1269> sorry ...
19:39:12  <andythenorth> CC is crazy talk
19:39:45  <glx> pavel1269: yes, they are new
19:40:29  <planetmaker> Akoz: I have no idea how to circumvent the global var. And I don't really see the need :-)
19:40:42  <TrueBrain> THREADS!
19:40:51  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: :D
19:40:52  <andythenorth> indeed
19:41:49  <andythenorth> Well I bumped the GPL thing, I'll shut up about it...except to say: fight CC everywhere you can, it's bad for the community.  GPL is better.
19:41:54  <Akoz> planetmaker: and putting it in the totally unrelated network_gui file just for convenience is.. fine? :p
19:41:54  <Noldo> planetmaker: global var where!?
19:42:06  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: for code, you are aboslutely right
19:42:08  <TrueBrain> for content, not so much
19:42:16  <planetmaker> Noldo: in the diff from Akoz ...
19:42:18  <TrueBrain> (that, GPL even says himself)
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19:42:33  <OwenS> Heck, for code, the CC folks even say "don't use the CC! It's not designed for it!" :p
19:42:42  <planetmaker> basically storing the name of the person who talked to you last privately
19:43:04  <andythenorth> ok so scenarios?  CC.  For anything to do with a grf?  GPL.  What else is there for OpenTTD?
19:43:09  <Akoz>
19:43:11  <andythenorth> Maps?
19:43:26  <OwenS> andythenorth: Are maps not scenarios?
19:43:34  <andythenorth> heightmap != scenario?
19:43:41  <TrueBrain> heighmaps are funny
19:43:43  <OwenS> I suppose in that case
19:43:46  <TrueBrain> they have a license by their source
19:43:53  <TrueBrain> which is much more strict then most people realise :)
19:44:05  <OwenS> In the case of a heightmap of an area of the world, can someone really claim copyright? :P
19:44:20  <TrueBrain> copyright? Or license of use? :p
19:44:35  <andythenorth> They can claim either / both if it's their original work
19:45:37  <OwenS> TrueBrain: You can only license something you own :p
19:45:43  <SmatZ> [21:43:44] <TrueBrain> they have a license by their source <=== do you mean some metadata in image?
19:45:58  <OwenS> SmatZ: I think he means whoever mapped the terrain
19:46:04  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: don't know about that ... I worked for months with SRTM, but couldn't be arshed to check the license
19:46:08  <TrueBrain> as I knew it was .. strict :p
19:46:40  <TrueBrain> I only know VMAP0 is public domain :p
19:46:50  <SmatZ> SRTM? Shuttle Radar Topography Mission?
19:47:13  <TrueBrain>
19:47:17  <TrueBrain> one of the most common sources for heightmaps
19:47:35  <SmatZ> this SRTM is about topology too :)
19:47:45  <SmatZ> *topography :-p
19:48:07  <TrueBrain> they are the same. My site has a nice viewer :p
19:48:13  <SmatZ> ah, nice :)
19:48:19  <andythenorth> SRTM looks like you can use it in derivative works for non-commercial purposes.  So probably fine.
19:48:24  <andythenorth> but you can't redistribute the data ;)
19:48:42  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: exactly
19:48:46  <TrueBrain> which is a bit ... hard, I say :p
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19:48:57  <TrueBrain> like: I HAVE THIS BRILIANT HEIGHTMAP!
19:49:00  <TrueBrain> but .. I can't show you :p
19:49:01  <andythenorth> But a heightmap based on SRTM would be derivative, not the data itself?
19:49:06  <andythenorth> so you can publish that
19:49:15  <andythenorth> A heightmap being a png or such
19:49:18  <TrueBrain> publish: yes
19:49:22  <TrueBrain> distribute ... dunno :p
19:49:53  <TrueBrain> "CIAT also request  reprints of  any publications  and notification  of any  redistributing efforts"
19:49:57  <TrueBrain> I guess I have something to tell them :p
19:50:03  <andythenorth> So you can publish and notify :)
19:50:08  <andythenorth> Simples?
19:50:08  <TrueBrain> I think a lot of people on the forums have ...
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19:54:54  <TrueBrain> so used to long compile-times, that I am suprised when my 'make' returns instant
19:55:35  <OwenS> Whoa. Seen the new version of Media Wiki they're betaing on Wikipedia?
19:59:10  <TrueBrain> why oh why does my checksum not detect changes in the content :(
19:59:33  <TrueBrain> even CRC-32 seems to fail :(
20:01:34  <OwenS> In your emulator?
20:01:45  <TrueBrain> yup
20:02:01  <OwenS> Dune 2 unintentionally generating collisions? O_o
20:02:06  <TrueBrain> haha
20:02:08  <TrueBrain> doubtful :)
20:02:13  <SmatZ> hehe
20:02:26  <OwenS> An = instead of == somewhere? :p
20:02:26  <TrueBrain> I try to find a clever way to identify functions
20:02:32  <TrueBrain> without depending on their cs:ip pair
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20:02:40  <TrueBrain> but ... I fail :p
20:02:51  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: you can remember file:position as well
20:02:57  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: overlays
20:02:59  <SmatZ> but still it will fail for self modifying code...
20:03:01  <TrueBrain> self-rewriting code
20:03:03  <TrueBrain> :)
20:03:06  <SmatZ> :)
20:03:14  <TrueBrain> I wish it was that simple :p
20:04:41  <OwenS> How do I skin Qt3 apps on KDE4? :p
20:06:36  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: too bad things like this fail in modern OSs
20:06:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r17147 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix [FS#3048]: Keep vehicle news and viewports following vehicles, when autoreplacing/renewing them.
20:06:58  <SmatZ> spltting to executable and non-executable pages and stuff
20:07:12  <TrueBrain> too bad? :p :p
20:07:30  <SmatZ> well, for generating code on-the-fly and running it, yes :)
20:07:34  <TrueBrain> <- I wonder if my CRC-32 is correct :p
20:07:44  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: fair enough :)
20:07:51  <TrueBrain> now you need to do a bit more work :)
20:10:23  <KenjiE20> hm, looking at line 88 in town.h, I'm pretty sure that should read water not paper
20:11:56  <SmatZ> KenjiE20: it's there to fool some inexperienced players
20:12:06  <KenjiE20> hehe
20:12:40  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: that code looks complex :)
20:12:53  <TrueBrain> just a default CRC-32 .. if I didn't make any mistakes
20:13:05  <SmatZ> that crc32 has some fixed polynomial I suppose
20:13:13  <TrueBrain> 0x04 ..
20:13:20  <SmatZ> 0x04C11DB7 isn't just a random number ;)
20:13:43  <TrueBrain> CRC-32 by IEEE
20:14:00  <SmatZ> @base 16 10 104C11DB7
20:14:00  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 4374732215
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20:15:39  * SmatZ doesn't really remember how it should be done (when there isn't 1 bit read in each round, but 8)
20:15:58  <TrueBrain> me neither :p
20:16:22  <TrueBrain> I now added a second checksum (a simple addition one)
20:16:25  <SmatZ> I could find it in my notes, but... there are sure many examples online :)
20:16:27  <TrueBrain> and still it fails :(
20:16:30  <SmatZ> :(
20:16:35  <SmatZ> it has the same checksum?
20:16:42  <TrueBrain> yeah, most examples only use table lookups .. I don't want to do that right now :p
20:16:49  <TrueBrain> well, 2 non-identical functions have :p
20:16:50  <SmatZ> :)
20:17:01  <SmatZ> and is it the same?
20:17:11  <SmatZ> you can store the copy of the function somewhere...
20:17:11  <glx> try md5 :)
20:17:18  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah, considered it :p
20:17:19  <SmatZ> if it won't kill your app :)
20:17:24  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: it does :p
20:17:28  <SmatZ> :-p
20:17:31  <TrueBrain> as it happens after 100k+ CPU instructions
20:17:54  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Steal Zlib's Adler32? Almost as good as CRC32 and much faster
20:18:13  <SmatZ> I would expect regular sum would be enough to detect it... in most cases
20:18:24  <SmatZ> when the code isn't trying to hide the change
20:18:29  <TrueBrain> that I was thinking too ....
20:18:39  <TrueBrain> an addition + xor should be more than plenty, I considered
20:18:48  <TrueBrain> (hard to make code that gives the same value in such cases)
20:18:55  <SmatZ> but, are you sure the code really changes?
20:19:01  <TrueBrain> nope
20:19:13  <TrueBrain> but if I add 'cs' check, it works, if I remove it, it fails
20:19:21  <TrueBrain> (use 'cs' as unique key)
20:19:23  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Addler32 is 2 additions per byte IIRC
20:19:48  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: interesting, so the behaviour is different when cs changes?
20:19:53  <SmatZ> does it read cs?
20:20:02  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: well, normally my cache checks cs:ip:length:crc
20:20:16  <TrueBrain> I want to remove 'cs', because of overlays it happens that different cs is the same code
20:20:21  <TrueBrain> when doing so, the game never starts
20:20:56  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: if you remove the cs and the app reads cs, would it cause problems?
20:21:04  <SmatZ> like, you have cs hardcoded somewhere
20:21:10  <TrueBrain> removing from the hash-key
20:21:12  <TrueBrain> not fromt he emulator :p
20:21:57  <TrueBrain> hmm
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20:22:10  <TrueBrain> you do have one good point .. what if the overlay is relocated
20:22:12  <TrueBrain> (which it is)
20:22:46  <TrueBrain> but that should be detected too
20:23:13  <TrueBrain> overlays sucks!! :)
20:24:02  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Yes. Hence their replacement with pages :p
20:24:32  <TrueBrain> I think I should just take over INT3F and do overlaying myself :p Problem solved :)
20:25:02  <OwenS> I'm more concerned about why your hash is matching :p
20:26:50  <TrueBrain> well, I cna't see if it is the hash that matches, or that it is something else that goes wrong
20:26:53  <TrueBrain> hard to trace :p
20:27:11  <TrueBrain> but okay, yesterday I got the complain that this channel was too little about OpenTTD :p
20:28:03  <OwenS> We'll talk about OpenTTD when theres talk about it to do :p
20:28:42  <glx> who complained?
20:29:03  <TrueBrain> [12:54] <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what anybody reported yesterday
20:29:05  <TrueBrain> [12:54] <Eddi|zuHause> all my memor^Wlogs from yesterday are about old games :p
20:29:06  <TrueBrain> hehehehe :p
20:30:20  <OwenS> Was he not participating? fscking hypocrite =P
20:30:30  <TrueBrain> I like Eddi|zuHause :)
20:31:02  <TrueBrain> oeh, I am going to make my emulator 'resumable' :)
20:31:04  <TrueBrain> hihihihi
20:31:58  <glx> "savegames" ie snapshots
20:32:00  <glx> ?
20:32:02  <TrueBrain> yup
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20:32:28  <TrueBrain> what is faster: fwrite(memory, 1024 * 1024, 1, fp);
20:32:31  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Does this just involve dumping 1MB of RAM to disk? :p
20:32:33  <OwenS> lol yes
20:32:36  <TrueBrain> or fwrite(memory, 1, 1024 * 1024, fp);?
20:33:02  <OwenS> 1024*1024, 1 I'd guess
20:33:17  <glx> 1 big block
20:33:25  <OwenS> Why not 1024, 1024? :p
20:33:35  <TrueBrain> OwenS: well, to be exact: because the JIT needs to be attached to the process in order to decompile uncompiled functions, and the normal static version won't have the JIT attached, I need something so when it crashes at yours with the message: found uncompiled version, I can run it here by just attaching the JIT :p
20:33:52  <TrueBrain> what I tried to say: it never made sense to me .. size vs nmemb :(
20:33:53  <OwenS> lol
20:34:36  <OwenS> I think fwrite may do for(i = 0; i < nmemb; ++i) write(fd, size, ptr)
20:35:09  <TrueBrain> I hope it just does: size * nmemb :p
20:35:42  <OwenS> Contractually, it may return a lower number than nmemb, in which case only that many chunks have been written
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20:38:23  <TrueBrain> haha
20:38:25  <TrueBrain> I love this mistake:
20:38:27  <TrueBrain> values[9]
20:38:29  <TrueBrain> values[10]
20:38:32  <TrueBrain> so, I think, not pretty
20:38:34  <TrueBrain> lets do:
20:38:35  <TrueBrain> values[09]
20:38:40  <TrueBrain> slightly ... different meaning :p
20:38:46  <TrueBrain> (invalid btw)
20:39:57  <Rubidium> yeah, octal is fun!
20:40:16  <_ln> #define O9 9
20:42:30  <Lakie> Why not just pad it with whitespace?
20:43:06  <Lakie> values[ 0]
20:43:17  <TrueBrain> I now did (of course)
20:43:25  <TrueBrain> but my initial solution made me laugh
20:43:29  <TrueBrain> just wanted to share ;)
20:44:25  <Lakie> Heh
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20:47:53  <xmakina> JAMI 0.2 is out for people who might be interested
20:48:02  <TrueBrain> xmakina: nice going :) Is it any good?
20:48:14  <Ammler> Rubidium: we could use the sample templates from orudge, where he spoke the number
20:48:15  <xmakina> well it doesn't seem to crash...
20:48:39  <xmakina> and she can turn a profit, eventually
20:48:40  <Ammler> so you hear ingame, when which sound is played.
20:50:04  <TrueBrain> xmakina: so in not too long time, you beat the crap out of AdmiralAI and stuff? :p
20:50:44  <Ammler> xmakina: I like, how you give your ai a gender.
20:51:12  <Ammler> now, at least one female player in openttd :-)
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20:51:59  <xmakina> lol
20:52:23  <xmakina> TrueBrain: Maybe in a few more versions...
20:52:50  <xmakina> TrueBrain: Also - I love that NoAI project thing - you can even set versions and build a roadmap
20:53:03  <TrueBrain> :) I am happy you like it :)
20:53:31  <xmakina> seriously - you should advertise it more - maybe make a single post sticky about it listing all its many and awesome features?
20:54:03  <TrueBrain> xmakina: people who are interested will come anyway :)
20:54:12  <TrueBrain> those things go quickly enough :)
20:54:19  <TrueBrain> (mostly as there are not THAT many NoAI authors :)
20:54:36  <xmakina> heh
20:54:36  <xmakina> quite
20:54:58  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: Redmine?
20:55:08  <TrueBrain> yup
20:55:11  <Xaroth> nice
20:55:22  <TrueBrain> yup :p
20:55:30  <Xaroth> OpenDune running? :o
20:55:35  <TrueBrain> starting to :)
20:55:42  <Xaroth> woot
20:56:30  <TrueBrain> now restructuring a bit :)
20:56:45  <Rubidium> Ammler: huh? What sample template?
20:56:52  <Rubidium> what number?
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21:01:42  <Ammler> Rubidium: in the sample replacment ordudge made
21:02:15  <Rubidium> where? I haven't seen it
21:02:22  <Ammler> there you hear sounds like "one", "two"... etc. sounds I guess orudge recorded with his voice.
21:02:38  <Rubidium> and I've been looking through quite a lot of the sound replacement threads lately
21:02:46  <Ammler> the number you have also in the tickets
21:03:26  <Ammler> Rubidium: the sound replacement which needed a patch
21:06:02  <dihedral> afaik there is only one sound replacement set orudge started a thread for
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21:08:12  <Ammler>
21:08:48  <dihedral> refrase: sound replacement project :-P
21:09:11  <Rubidium> Ammler: and which of the posts has the numbers?
21:09:41  <welterde> TrueBrain: i just wish there would be support for bzr..
21:10:02  <Ammler> orudge: still around?
21:10:03  <TrueBrain> euh ... make a request at ?
21:10:44  <Ammler> maybe he didn't post the number sounds.
21:11:22  <Rubidium> Ammler: because in that first post is... uhm... kinda material
21:11:51  <welterde> TrueBrain: any special reason why you don't have support for that on that host?
21:12:01  <TrueBrain> oh, you mean there? Sorry, I Thought you talked in general
21:12:02  <Ammler> I just can remember as I tried that patch, I heard number where there was no real sound :-)
21:12:14  <TrueBrain> well, the same as for any other random VCS: because we took Subversion
21:12:24  <welterde> TrueBrain: i mean ;-)
21:12:31  <TrueBrain> technical limitations, preference, and I couldn't be arshed
21:12:38  <TrueBrain> subversion is centralized, perfect for the job
21:12:57  <welterde> actually redmine supports multiple different vcses
21:13:03  <TrueBrain> but as I said to all those others asked this questions: you can have a WC with both svn and bzr/git/hg/cvs/...
21:13:10  <TrueBrain> and everyone knows better
21:13:18  <TrueBrain> but when I ask in detail, nobody can answer me the simplest question related to it
21:13:19  <welterde> or just use my own redmine-instance^^
21:13:25  <Ammler> welterde: but you still need support for the vcs itself, "someone" needs to maintain it.
21:13:26  <TrueBrain> so please ... believe me if I say it is technical not possible in redmine
21:14:20  <welterde> TrueBrain: on your host..
21:14:32  <TrueBrain> in our setup
21:14:35  <TrueBrain> which is exactly what we have
21:14:45  <TrueBrain> and as with everything: if you don't like it, just move along and don't use it
21:14:53  <TrueBrain> the wonderful thing about Open Source world
21:16:08  <welterde> Ammler: well.. nothing $package_manager can't handle imho(if it is at least an vserver)
21:16:37  <TrueBrain> yes, $package_manager indeed always understands when you create a new project in redmine
21:16:43  <TrueBrain> and that it needs to initialize the repos
21:16:45  <TrueBrain> with correct permissions
21:16:46  <TrueBrain> it does all that
21:16:59  <TrueBrain> (and then they wonder why I get sarcastic from time to time :p)
21:17:24  <Ammler> oh, only from time to time? :-P
21:17:35  <TrueBrain> :) Problem with this world; everyone knows better :)
21:17:43  <TrueBrain> everyone assumes you are more stupid then they are :p
21:17:49  <TrueBrain> (well .. I know I do :))
21:18:04  <welterde> TrueBrain: oh.. you mean like that.. i just meant the binary...
21:18:14  <TrueBrain> welterde: well, Ammler meant that, or so I hope anyway ..
21:18:26  <TrueBrain> as I said: please trust us in when we say it is technical not possible
21:18:46  <TrueBrain> there is so much more than you will ever see to and its webservices
21:19:46  <welterde> TrueBrain: with bzr you don't have to initialize the repos and fix permissions btw. :P
21:20:03  <TrueBrain> no, we just have to give everyone commit rights
21:20:07  <Xaroth> welterde: I don't think that's the best thing to say :P
21:20:07  <TrueBrain> indeed, sounds like the perfect plan
21:20:21  <Ammler> in the devzone, everyone has access to every repo, everyone can create his repos everyone can start his project
21:20:24  <TrueBrain> (even now, he doesn't want to give up .. keep on trying ... I am in a good mood today :p)
21:20:45  <TrueBrain> okay, I will stop being sarcastic :)
21:20:50  <Xaroth> impossible
21:20:53  <TrueBrain> welterde: we need authentication (permissions)
21:20:57  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: just make a bzr repository and show him it doesn't work
21:20:59  <TrueBrain> simply because we don't want things to go renegade
21:21:07  <TrueBrain> Ammler: ^^ :p
21:21:09  <Xaroth> but on that note, TrueBrain, pics! :P
21:21:10  <welterde> TrueBrain: i already gave up :P
21:21:18  *** LaSeandre [] has quit [Quit:  I love my HydraIRC -> <-]
21:21:20  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: pics of WHO?
21:21:23  <TrueBrain> Jessica Alba? Yes please :)
21:21:25  <Ammler> well, I see it as experiement ;-)
21:21:30  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I hope it succeeds :)
21:21:35  <Ammler> the openttd community is the lab
21:21:40  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: yes please.. but was more referring to OpenDune :P
21:21:58  <welterde> but i just want to say that "technical not possible" is not quite correct
21:22:01  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: ghehe :)
21:22:03  <Rubidium> Ammler: with access you mean "root" access?
21:22:07  <TrueBrain> welterde: .......
21:22:19  <TrueBrain> welterde: stop for a moment and ask why I tihnk it is technical not possible, instead of telling me it is
21:22:20  <Xaroth> welterde: in this technical situation, it's not possible.
21:22:34  <Ammler> well, as yorick registered, we installed mercurial-server
21:22:40  <welterde> TrueBrain: so.. why do you think it is technical not possible
21:22:46  <Ammler> but no in use yet.
21:22:57  <TrueBrain> welterde: I don't think; I know. As I worked on it. For a few hours :p
21:23:19  <welterde> on bzr?
21:23:26  <TrueBrain> for any alternative VCS
21:23:28  <welterde> or on any other vcs?
21:23:32  <Ammler> Rubidium: everyone=manager or developer of a project
21:23:34  <TrueBrain> welterde: we need a secure setup. We can't have other people fiddling in others work. As this will mean someone will fuckup, and nobody inside the OpenTTD Developers team has any time to maintain that
21:23:46  <TrueBrain> that give, we have restrictions. Authentication needs to come logic from the Redmine website
21:23:51  <TrueBrain> access needs to be restricted to the project itself
21:23:56  <TrueBrain> creation of repos needs to be automated
21:24:07  <TrueBrain> access to the repos needs to walk over DAV
21:24:18  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
21:24:23  <TrueBrain> with those restrictions in mind, there is no way to make redmine to something beside subversion
21:24:30  <welterde> well.. the last point is quite impossible with bzr afair
21:24:30  <TrueBrain> or, for all we cared, we could have made the default mercurial
21:24:42  * TrueBrain goes to find a gun
21:24:55  <welterde> TrueBrain: but there is no need to use dav ;-)
21:25:05  <TrueBrain> .....
21:25:09  <TrueBrain> where is that darn gun of mine
21:25:11  <welterde> because you can have authentication even without using http/dav/...
21:25:26  <TrueBrain> really welterde, because you go shout something, make sure you know all the restrictions
21:25:40  <TrueBrain> it is like walking into an Apple store and yelling: A MOUSE CAN HAVE A RIGHT BUTTON!!!
21:25:50  <Rubidium> welterde: how do you do authentication with bzr without giving people (ssh) access?
21:26:04  <TrueBrain> because = before
21:26:05  <TrueBrain> lol
21:26:07  <Xaroth> Rubidium: TCP over pidgeon
21:26:12  <welterde> Rubidium: you can limit ssh quite a bit actually..
21:26:15  <TrueBrain> Pidgeon RFC!!!!!
21:26:21  <Xaroth> welterde: you GOT to be kidding me
21:26:28  <TrueBrain> welterde: and for SSH access ... do you maybe need a public IP?
21:26:34  <Xaroth> giving random people SSH access?!?
21:26:37  <glx> TrueBrain: a mouse can have a wheel too :)
21:26:48  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: ssht... don't tell him!
21:26:52  <Xaroth> only 1 idiot needs to have a less-than-secure password, some bot walks by and messes everything up
21:26:56  <welterde> Xaroth: no problem if they can't do anything outside of /home/bzruser
21:26:59  <TrueBrain> no .... then he maybe has to admit it is tehcnical not possible
21:27:02  <welterde> (and not even login)
21:27:16  <TrueBrain> but sure, keep pushing
21:27:21  <TrueBrain> maybe you make yourself wanted :)
21:27:35  <TrueBrain> oh, wait, there was that sarcastic again
21:27:38  <welterde> TrueBrain: it is possible... just not in the time you have to spare on that :)
21:27:38  <Rubidium> for what it's worth, OpenTTD is multiplexing IPv4s like a mad man, just to keep the costs down
21:27:39  <TrueBrain> darn ...... I should learn to control that :)
21:27:45  <TrueBrain> welterde: TIME is the constrain?
21:27:47  <TrueBrain> really?
21:27:58  <TrueBrain> so tell me, how to solve DAV?
21:28:00  <welterde> yeah.. it's the only constrain for everything :P
21:28:07  <TrueBrain> how to assign a (non avaialble) public IPv4 to that VPS?
21:28:15  <Xaroth> sanity is a stricter constraint
21:28:18  <TrueBrain> how to make redmine auto-create the VCS?
21:28:29  <TrueBrain> how to automate access via redmine?
21:28:30  <welterde> TrueBrain: that would be quite easy actually
21:28:37  <TrueBrain> which of the 4?
21:28:51  <TrueBrain> redmine can only create 1 (!) type of VCS for projects
21:28:52  <welterde> "how to make redmine auto-create the VCS?"
21:28:55  <TrueBrain> Subversion in our case
21:29:07  <TrueBrain> that is a BIG limitation of Redmines side, but one that is very much there
21:29:19  <welterde> uhmm....
21:29:31  <TrueBrain> now before you go claim things, read their documentation first
21:29:38  <TrueBrain> just to avoid any unneeded flaming from my part :p
21:29:40  <welterde> maybe that has been changed i dunno.. but the version i am using does support it
21:29:48  <TrueBrain> ....
21:29:51  <TrueBrain> oh really? Do tell :)
21:29:55  <TrueBrain> this got to be good
21:29:57  <welterde> yes :)
21:30:06  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: go work on OpenDune, just hand this dude the gun so he can shoot himself :P
21:30:07  <TrueBrain> (remember we talk about CREATING, not attaching)
21:30:17  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: yeah ... this is a waste of time, I know :)
21:30:34  <welterde> TrueBrain: you mean by creating, creating of the repo, right?
21:30:37  <TrueBrain> yes
21:30:39  <TrueBrain> svnadmin create
21:30:40  <TrueBrain> hg init
21:30:42  <TrueBrain> git init
21:31:07  <welterde> TrueBrain: i know.. i shouldn't have started with it :/
21:31:15  <Xaroth> then why start
21:31:17  <Xaroth> or better yet
21:31:20  <Xaroth> Why continue?!?
21:31:20  <TrueBrain>
21:31:22  <TrueBrain> there you go
21:31:27  <TrueBrain> how to make this script create multiple VCSes?
21:31:31  *** lewymati2 [] has quit []
21:31:50  <TrueBrain> oh wait .. it can't!
21:31:53  <TrueBrain> (darn, sarcasm again)
21:32:04  <TrueBrain> so, lets travel this road back
21:32:10  <Rubidium> t
21:32:13  <Xaroth> I have a colleague that does the same
21:32:16  <TrueBrain> Redmine can only create 1 type of VCS via an automated process
21:32:20  <TrueBrain> we picked Subversion
21:32:23  <Xaroth> trying to argue for the sake of the arguement
21:32:23  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: but he's running a custom version!
21:32:44  <welterde> Xaroth: i dunno... i guess you got a point here
21:32:44  <TrueBrain> so welterde, man enough to admit that it is technical not possible (for us)? :)
21:32:53  <welterde> (yet) :)
21:33:05  <TrueBrain> @kick welterde you really deserved this
21:33:05  *** welterde was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [you really deserved this]
21:33:05  *** welterde [] has joined #openttd
21:33:09  <TrueBrain> @kban welterde 60 you really deserved this
21:33:11  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
21:33:11  *** welterde was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [you really deserved this]
21:33:17  * Xaroth applauds
21:33:26  <Xaroth> ... hostmask gandalf.?!?!?
21:33:28  <TrueBrain> damn .. that has to be the longest time I could hold back a kick :)
21:33:36  <Xaroth> he DEFINITELY deserved that
21:34:12  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
21:34:16  <TrueBrain> I btw hate auto-rejoin
21:34:27  <Xaroth> 60 seconds? i was hoping 60 hours :/
21:34:30  <TrueBrain> nah
21:34:39  *** welterde [] has joined #openttd
21:34:43  * TrueBrain hugs welterde
21:34:57  <TrueBrain> now just know that we do investigate things :)
21:35:12  <welterde> ok :)
21:35:25  <welterde> but hey.. maybe i can fix that for you ;)
21:35:27  <TrueBrain> but things aren't always as easy as they are on your home computer ;)
21:35:36  <welterde> TrueBrain: home-vserver you mean
21:35:38  <TrueBrain> well, make a patch for Redmine which allows you to pick which repos it should create
21:35:40  <TrueBrain> would be very useful
21:35:52  <TrueBrain> indeferno knows
21:36:22  *** Yexo [] has joined #openttd
21:36:30  <Yexo> good evening
21:36:36  <TrueBrain> hello Yexo!! :)
21:36:42  <planetmaker> good evening Yexo
21:36:56  <Yexo> hi TrueBrain :)
21:36:58  <Yexo> hi planetmaker :)
21:37:03  <Xaroth> hullo Yexo
21:37:26  <welterde> TrueBrain: see? if you wait long enough all problems will solve themselves ;)
21:37:42  <TrueBrain> welterde: still THIS close .. you realise that, right?
21:37:47  * Xaroth waits for it
21:37:50  <welterde> Yexo: i have a few question to you :)
21:38:11  <Yexo> welterde: then just ask it, otherwise I can't answer :)
21:38:24  * TrueBrain gniffels at Yexo :)
21:38:39  <Ammler> btw, is there a good "fork" platform for bazaar like bitbucket or github?
21:38:40  <Xaroth> Yexo: was fun knowing you...
21:38:53  <welterde> Yexo: ok.. one that isn't that important anymore, but anyway..
21:38:57  <welterde> Ammler: yeah
21:38:59  <OwenS> Ammler: GitHub? Ick. Gitorious ftw :P
21:39:15  <Yexo> I feel like I'm missing something
21:39:22  <welterde> Yexo: any reason why there is no coroutine support in noai?
21:39:24  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:39:35  <Ammler> OwenS: you know my feelings about git :P
21:39:37  <Yexo> coroutine? as in squirrel generators?
21:39:52  <welterde> no.. as in the threads it uses
21:40:01  <OwenS> Ammler: Why Bzr though? Hg I can understand... But not Bzr...
21:40:04  <welterde> which area actually coroutines
21:40:17  <Ammler> OwenS: because welterde mentioned it...
21:40:31  <Yexo> welterde: do you want to use threads in your AI or do you want OpenTTD to run multiple AIs in different threads?
21:40:47  <welterde> Yexo: i want to use multiple threads in my AI :)
21:41:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17148 /extra/website/ (7 files in 3 dirs): [Website] -Add: support for base sounds to BaNaNaS.
21:41:17  <Yexo> those aren't supported because the AIMode system doesn't work well with it
21:41:32  <Yexo> it doesn't work well with generators either, but it's a bit late to disable those
21:41:55  <Yexo> anyway, it's easy to emulate threads with generators
21:42:15  <xmakina> generators?
21:42:20  <welterde> yeah.. already do that :)
21:42:27  <Yexo> if you don't need them, please don't use them
21:43:09  <welterde> xmakina: local a=function{...; yield "asdf";}; local b=a();local c=resume b;    a=>function; b=>generator; c=>"asdf"
21:43:31  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:43:36  <welterde> Yexo: "doesn't work well with generators"?
21:44:01  * xmakina doesn't feel that much wiser about the issue
21:44:15  <planetmaker> an initial version of the base sound system is now available for checkout: hg clone
21:44:16  <TrueBrain> xmakina: that isn't you :)
21:44:29  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: 'initla version' of what? :p
21:44:56  <welterde> xmakina: the function will stop at the yield and instead of returning "asdf" at the first time it will return an generator object, which you can use to resume the function
21:44:59  <planetmaker> ah... s/system//
21:45:13  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: no, I meant: 'the' base sound
21:45:17  <welterde> xmakina: <- see here :)
21:45:19  <Yexo> xmakina:
21:45:20  <TrueBrain> will there be only one? What are the ideas of the project?
21:45:25  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: see channel topic :-P
21:45:37  <planetmaker> or rather name ;-)
21:45:41  <TrueBrain> which channel?
21:45:45  <planetmaker> hm... this?
21:45:48  <TrueBrain> (btw, 404)
21:46:06  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: what about it? Sorry, I lost you.
21:46:12  <xmakina> welterde: huh. how interesting
21:46:24  <planetmaker> default =
21:46:35  <planetmaker> ^ typo in link, sorry
21:46:42  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: free sounds for OpenTTD
21:46:48  <TrueBrain> where is that in this topic?
21:47:01  <planetmaker> basically collected by Rubi. But now in a repo.
21:47:13  <planetmaker> And yes, I correct myself to s/topic/channel name/
21:47:24  <planetmaker> mind to actually read? ;-)
21:47:32  <TrueBrain> I still don't get it :p
21:47:39  <planetmaker> then don't worry
21:47:40  <welterde> Yexo: so far they work fine for me, but i think i better don't use them in connection with AIMode, hu?
21:47:42  <TrueBrain> #openttd .. how does that answer the question: what are the ideas? :p
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21:48:22  <Yexo> welterde: they can use fine, but as soon as you start using any AIMode inside your generator you're in dangerous waters
21:48:27  <planetmaker> [23:44]	<planetmaker>	an initial version of the base sound is now available for checkout: ...
21:48:31  <planetmaker> ^ TrueBrain
21:48:44  <planetmaker> like a free version. non-proprietary...?
21:48:49  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: either you don't understand a bit I am saying, or I don't understand a bit you are saying :p
21:49:02  <welterde> Yexo: that's what i mean.. any luck finding the cause of that?
21:49:03  <TrueBrain> ah :) So like OpenGFX for the base gfx? :)
21:49:11  <planetmaker> yes
21:49:19  <TrueBrain> that I was asking about :) hihi :)
21:49:22  <Yexo> welterde: yes, I know the reason, but that doesn't say I can fix it
21:49:31  <Yexo> it's working exactly like it's designed
21:49:56  <planetmaker> :-)
21:50:03  <welterde> hmm..
21:50:05  *** Cybertinus [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:50:15  <planetmaker> so. and now that the existance of the repo is announced here, I'm off to bed :-)
21:50:20  <TrueBrain> night planetmaker :)
21:50:20  <planetmaker> Have a good night folks
21:50:25  <TrueBrain> I never knew there were so many tiny sounds :p
21:50:28  <Yexo> anyway, if you have more questions, please ask them. I'll go to sleep very soon :p
21:50:34  <welterde> oh.. is AITestMode/AIMode an DoCommand?
21:50:40  <Yexo> no
21:51:01  <Yexo> but using AITestMode is only usefull if you do a DoCommand afterwards
21:51:37  <welterde> yeah.. but using AITestMode in an generator(thread) would be useful.. hmmm...
21:52:25  <Yexo> if you don't use it in the generator itself but only in a function called from the generator you should be fine
21:52:48  <welterde> ahh :)
21:52:56  <welterde> will do
21:53:12  <Yexo> OpenTTD code assumes all AIMode objects are destroyed in reverse order then they were created
21:53:56  <Yexo> creating an AIMode object in a generator, then yielding that generator, then removing another AIMode object breaks that assumption
21:54:15  <welterde> wouldn't that mean that fixing coroutines would be easier?
21:54:34  <welterde> because coroutines have their own context, while generators have not
21:54:55  <Yexo> for openttd they have not, the AIMode-stack is per-AI, not per AI thread
21:55:05  <Yexo> that's the reason coroutines are disabled, to prevent problems with that
21:55:29  <welterde> hmm.. yes..
21:56:07  <welterde> you have to put the AIMode in a variable a guess?
21:56:37  <Yexo> yes
21:56:43  <welterde> and setting it to null should have the same effect as returning from the function, right?
21:56:45  <Yexo> otherwise it's destroyed immediatly
21:56:53  <Yexo> yes
21:57:26  <Yexo> "local a = AITestMode(); local b = AIExecMode(); a = null" <- that's an easy way to make openttd assert
21:57:39  <welterde> local a=..AIMode..;...;a=null;yield null; would probably work, while local a=..AIMode..;...;yield;a=null will probably result in desaster
21:57:50  <Yexo> yep
21:58:01  <welterde> have to keep that in mind :)
21:58:32  <welterde> now just to find an clever algorithm to find a big pile of free place in an sub-region of the map
21:58:41  <Yexo> and if it results in too much disaster (ie too much FS#3078 bug reports), I'll make sure to stop the AIs instead of asserting OpenTTD
21:58:51  <Yexo> I might do that anyway, it's just a low priority currently
21:59:20  <Yexo> just like the fact that some AI (no ie which one) selects all tiles on the map, then uses a valuator on that
21:59:59  <Yexo> Still thinking on a way to break that behavior (either crash AI or be able to stop the AI during the valuate), second option is prefered of course
22:00:01  <welterde> oh.. that reminds me of another question regarding AITileList..
22:00:31  <TrueBrain> lol, this kid has more questions then my screen can hold :p
22:00:32  <TrueBrain> hihi
22:00:50  <welterde> addRectangle(tile1, tile2) results in an Count() of 0.. is that intended behaviour?
22:01:02  <welterde> TrueBrain: have a long list here ;-)
22:01:18  <Yexo> welterde: that depends on the tiles :)
22:01:45  <welterde> if i mixed up the order count() => 0?
22:02:08  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: done with restructuring, now I can start making stats files, which can later on be used to staticly compiled :) A more pressing issue starts to show: legal issues :p
22:02:09  <Yexo> existing items won't be removed from the list
22:02:51  <Yexo> if either tile1 or tile2 is invalid, no tiles will be added
22:03:14  <Yexo> if both tiles are valid and it still returns in a count of 0 you should open a bug report at
22:04:01  <Xaroth> :o
22:04:21  <TrueBrain> so did you contact Westwood (or what is it)? :p
22:04:47  <Xaroth> nope
22:05:08  <Xaroth> actually bothered to look em up, but gave up
22:05:18  <welterde> Yexo: hmm.. seems like i messed up somewhere else.. here it works :)
22:05:26  <welterde> *now
22:05:28  <TrueBrain> too bad :)
22:09:03  *** Pygmalion [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:10:39  <OwenS> Whee; AlterScript's (Currently somewhat messy) code is now in the cloud
22:11:04  <TrueBrain> concratz!
22:11:07  <TrueBrain> and, how is it doing there?
22:11:16  <TrueBrain> downloading Jessica Alba?!
22:11:23  <OwenS> It's chilling with it's friends Qt and Amarok: :P
22:11:54  <OwenS> I should probably put X11 license headers on all the files :p
22:11:59  <TrueBrain> nice job, in the relative small time :p
22:12:15  <OwenS> TrueBrain: I haven't actually implemented If yet. It's in the AST but I haven't parsed it :p
22:12:22  <TrueBrain> lol
22:12:25  <TrueBrain> so it is useless? :p
22:12:38  <OwenS> Yes :p
22:12:45  <TrueBrain> at leas tI can play Dune2! (after 2 (or 3) months of work :p)
22:12:57  <OwenS> lol
22:13:47  <OwenS> It's quite easy to add features to though =)
22:14:02  <OwenS> brb scim has died on me =(
22:14:08  *** OwenS [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:14:31  *** OwenS [] has joined #openttd
22:14:35  *** Exl [] has quit []
22:14:38  <welterde> Yexo: oh.. there is no 0 tile?
22:15:04  <Yexo> there is, but if freeform map edges is on, tile 0 is invalid
22:15:27  <welterde> ahh.. that explains it :)
22:15:47  <Yexo> try to toggle that setting during a game and you'll see why :)
22:16:40  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: and in 2 months first demo of OpenDune :P
22:16:55  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: without the legal shit worked out, never :p
22:17:10  <Xaroth> meh :P
22:17:18  <Xaroth> how did the legal shit got worked out for TTD ?
22:17:24  <welterde> Yexo: any hint on how? (-:
22:17:24  <Xaroth> s/got/get
22:17:43  <Yexo> how to toggle that setting? make sure all tiles at the edges are water
22:18:11  <Yexo> or start a new game with the setting off, then you'll be able to turn it on
22:18:42  <Xaroth>
22:19:33  <TrueBrain> haha
22:19:35  <TrueBrain> nice
22:20:25  <Ammler> <-- little glitch: basegraphics is acitve in the navi bar.
22:21:09  <welterde> Yexo: now they are.. but how do i toogle that option now.. can't seem to find it.. unless you mean i should fill the water up with land, in which case you have to wait a bit..
22:21:36  <Yexo> no, it's somewhere under advanced settings (under construction if I recall correctly)
22:22:08  <welterde> ahhhhhh!
22:22:20  <welterde> yes... now i see why :)
22:23:10  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: [00:20] <Ammler> <-- little glitch: basegraphics is acitve in the navi bar.
22:23:16  <TrueBrain> template changes don't require restarts of django
22:23:32  <TrueBrain> (hint: 'section' entry in baseSound.html)
22:29:09  *** elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:29:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17149 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/baseSound.html: [Website] -Fix (r17148): the wrong section was highlighted for the sound replacement.
22:29:39  *** elmex [] has joined #openttd
22:30:40  <Yexo> good night
22:30:44  <TrueBrain> night Yexo!
22:30:53  *** Yexo [] has quit [Quit: bye]
22:32:04  <xmakina> TrueBrain: It's probably nothing, but every now and then over the last few hours has been very slow to respond
22:32:21  <TrueBrain> xmakina: yeah ... it happens when too long nobody visit the website :p
22:32:24  <TrueBrain> then it shuts itself down
22:32:55  <xmakina> ah
22:33:19  <welterde> TrueBrain: what do you use to run it?
22:33:26  <TrueBrain> passenger of course
22:34:26  <OwenS> TrueBrain: I thought it was it's own VM? Because if thats the case, why shut it down?
22:34:39  <TrueBrain> OwenS: a) how passenger works
22:34:47  <TrueBrain> b) why waste any resources any longer than needed?
22:35:01  <TrueBrain> noai is't used for hours at a time
22:35:12  <OwenS> a) Not configurable? b) and aren't they dedicated to the VPS anyway?
22:35:31  <TrueBrain> OwenS: nope; why would we?
22:35:41  <TrueBrain> we dedicate resources to any VPS if others might want to use it too, when the VPS isn't?
22:35:52  <TrueBrain> (avoids swapping, I guess :p)
22:36:07  <TrueBrain> and yes, it is configurable, but can't be arshed :p
22:36:18  <OwenS> Heh; I suppose it's just that I'm used to running on Xen which doesn't let you allocate more RAM to your VPS' than you physically have :p
22:36:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r17150 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: when MapGRFStringID() fails to remap, return STR_EMPTY instead of 'random' string
22:36:29  <TrueBrain> we run linux-vserver :p
22:36:38  <TrueBrain> if I ever have the change, I will replace it with ESXi
22:36:45  <TrueBrain> after which reservations are more permanent yes :p
22:37:03  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: sounds like a useful feature ;)
22:37:15  <Xaroth> ESX ftw
22:37:26  <TrueBrain> hmm .. now I need to figure out where a jump to a function comes from ... TRICKY! :)
22:37:50  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: yeah ;)
22:38:46  <TrueBrain> time to play a game of Snipes :)
22:40:05  <Xaroth> lol @ co-pilot
22:40:10  <Xaroth> Integrating 26381 POIs
22:40:19  <Xaroth> ... why the HELL would I need so many POIs :(
22:40:46  <SmatZ> because you are very curious?
22:40:49  <TrueBrain> Congratulations --- YOU ACTUALLY WON!!!
22:40:51  <TrueBrain> Play another game? (Y or N)
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22:40:58  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: I don't know snipes :(
22:41:03  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: you should!
22:41:05  <TrueBrain> best game ever!
22:41:07  <TrueBrain> by Novell!!
22:41:13  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: ahhhh I sure do!
22:41:22  <SmatZ> I just don't know it's called Snipes :)
22:41:27  <TrueBrain> most likely the only game they made :)
22:41:32  <TrueBrain> I didn't know the name for years
22:41:36  <TrueBrain> but I love the game so much :)
22:41:39  <SmatZ> some pre-pre-pacman, right?
22:41:45  <TrueBrain> yes :)
22:41:51  <TrueBrain> a maze, with holes where enemies come from
22:41:55  <TrueBrain> at level z-9
22:41:56  <TrueBrain> you can't touch walls
22:42:03  <SmatZ> interesting
22:42:05  <TrueBrain> shoting bounces of walls
22:42:19  <TrueBrain> and one of the only games which runs FLAWLESS :p
22:43:02  <SmatZ> for some reason, it's not called Snipes in my "old games" CD
22:43:22  <TrueBrain> a true gem, that direcotry :)
22:43:44  <TrueBrain>
22:43:44  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Interestingly, I just read a benchmark of Apache under Linux under [Xen Paravirtualized | Xen Hardware Virtualized | ESXi | MS Hyper-V] and Xen smoked everything =/
22:43:45  <SmatZ> hehe :)
22:43:48  <TrueBrain>
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22:44:11  <TrueBrain> OwenS: in my personal benchmark, it depends VERY much on your file-structure
22:44:42  * glx likes the "network" communication :)
22:44:50  <TrueBrain> it was made for that
22:44:54  <TrueBrain> just I never used it for it
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22:44:57  <welterde> OwenS: link?
22:45:14  <TrueBrain> there are 2 versions of Snipes .. one VERY ugly, and one pretty :p
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22:45:37  <TrueBrain> wikipedia shows the ugly, novell shows the pretty
22:45:38  <OwenS> welterde: though I'm trying to find a more extensive one
22:45:48  <OwenS> ESXi FreeBSD is an oddity there
22:46:07  <TrueBrain> OwenS: it all depends on the IO drivers
22:46:23  <TrueBrain> and comparing Apache Windows with Aapche Linux is stupid :p
22:46:31  <TrueBrain> (not depending on the virtualization :p)
22:46:39  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: shock! "emerge snipes" actually did something 8-)
22:46:40  <OwenS> TrueBrain: I'm ignoring the Windows results :p
22:46:45  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: there is a linux port :)
22:47:00  <welterde> not that i even consider using anything else than xen on my new server :P
22:47:19  <OwenS> Someone should compare VMs on multiple hosts: Linux-Xen, FreeBSD-Xen, Solaris-Xen, ESXi, etc
22:47:25  <TrueBrain> OwenS: but there is really no test than your own :)
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22:47:40  <TrueBrain> from what I read so far, is that ESXi and FreeBSD work very well together
22:47:46  <TrueBrain> (based on Ruby on Rails results)
22:47:55  <OwenS> TrueBrain: That benchmark shows the same
22:48:04  <TrueBrain> I believe OpenBSD did slightly better
22:48:05  <welterde> hmmm... ESXi only for 32bit?
22:48:09  <TrueBrain> lol, no
22:48:16  <OwenS> I imagine Solaris' IO drivers would probably cause it to rock as a host
22:48:38  <welterde> ah.. 4.0 is 64bit
22:48:38  <TrueBrain> but okay, running the IO over iSCSI give the best performance
22:48:44  <TrueBrain> then all VMs approached eachother mostly
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22:48:58  <TrueBrain> welterde: the bits of the hypervisor is not really important
22:48:59  <welterde> would be wasting ~6GB with 32bit ;-)
22:49:06  <TrueBrain> ESXi can do 64bit VMs for a LONG time
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22:49:30  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: the linux version is not really readable :s
22:49:37  <welterde> TrueBrain: as long as it can address the memory..
22:49:38  <SmatZ> yeah :(
22:49:50  <TrueBrain> welterde: there are nice tricks for that, but yeah, fair enough
22:49:57  <Xaroth> ESX 3.0 can do 64bit
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22:50:05  <Xaroth> so ESXi 4 can easily do 64bit
22:50:13  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: and I can't start :(
22:50:24  <OwenS> i386 32-bit can address 32GB of memory. Just not all at once
22:50:34  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: F3 :)
22:50:44  <OwenS> Sorry; 64GB :p
22:50:56  <TrueBrain> runs more fluent then my emu :p
22:51:02  <TrueBrain> but damn ... what level did they put me in ..
22:51:04  <TrueBrain> P8 .. lol!
22:51:10  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: 150 enemies!! :i
22:51:22  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: diagonal shots bounce btw
22:51:24  <SmatZ> OwenS: certainly not 386 ;) Rather PentiumPRO and newer (or so)
22:51:27  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: 8-)
22:51:47  <welterde> OwenS: well.. i want use all of my 8GB at once ;)
22:51:49  <OwenS> SmatZ: OK. I don't think people will be running many VMs on i386s :p
22:52:02  <SmatZ> but even so, kernel developers discourage from using PAE
22:52:23  <OwenS> Because it's a pain in the ass under 32-bit ;-)
22:52:28  <TrueBrain> lets leave PAE for the mac, okay? :p
22:52:53  <OwenS> Actually... Athlon64s/Opterons can address 2^48bits in Protected Mode under PAE :p
22:53:05  <OwenS> (Or 2^56 with newer models)
22:53:39  <glx> only vmware is able to run 64bit guests on my CPU :)
22:54:33  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: oh, difficulty level Z is crazy :-D
22:54:39  <TrueBrain> loveit :)
22:54:42  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: Z9 ;)
22:54:43  <welterde> glx: what cpu?
22:54:56  <glx> athlon 64 X2
22:54:56  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: yeah, just started that :)
22:55:14  <TrueBrain> the letter is the rule-set, the number the amount of enemies :p
22:55:31  <welterde> glx: uhmm..
22:55:40  <glx> it's a pre-AM2
22:56:42  <TrueBrain> either way .. this has been yet another goooood day :)
22:56:57  <TrueBrain> my emu collects stats ... now I need to figure out how to find where a jump comes from, and I can make static binaries :)
22:56:59  <welterde> glx: and why doesn't xen work on it? (not to talk about qemu *scnr*)
22:57:01  <TrueBrain> that will make Xaroth so happy :p
22:57:36  <OwenS> True, Xen works fine on older Athlon 64s :p Just can't run non-paravirtualized guests
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22:57:43  <glx> welterde: I tried only virtual box, virtualpc and vmware
22:57:53  <TrueBrain> good night all!!
22:57:59  <OwenS> night
22:58:01  <welterde> ah ok :)
22:58:14  <glx> and my CPU doesn't have AMD-V so only vmware is able to run 64bits guests
22:58:21  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: that makes me quite happy :)
22:58:28  <welterde> without patching them
23:02:29  <SmatZ> good night, TrueBrain
23:03:11  <welterde> does any of the AIs have an algorithm to search for free space in the map?
23:03:44  <Akoz> is having trouble?
23:04:17  <SmatZ> it's just slow for some reason
23:04:21  <Akoz> I get "500 Internal Server Error" whenever I try to submit something
23:05:22  <Rubidium> wonderfull :(
23:05:56  <Rubidium> why can't nobody create a webserver that *just* works without massive memory usage or the likes?
23:06:21  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: ^ 500 errors on bug reporting and wiki editing
23:06:25  <welterde> Rubidium: already tried lighttpd&nginx?
23:06:35  <Rubidium> welterde: yes
23:07:08  <Rubidium> lighttpd 'leaks' like hell in some circumstances, taking down half of the services on the server
23:07:32  <Rubidium> and for what it's worth, lighttpd&nginx are in use *NOW*
23:07:55  <welterde> ah :)
23:07:57  <Rubidium> nginx as proxy, lighttpd as simple-webpage-server
23:08:11  <welterde> nginx can be used as a simple-webpage-server too
23:08:14  <Rubidium> so lighttpd doesn't do the thing where it 'leaks' like hell
23:08:34  <Rubidium> welterde: well, OpenTTD's config is *far* from simple
23:08:53  <Akoz> any eta on when that site might be back up?
23:08:53  <welterde> yeah.. i know.. mine isn't simple either ;)
23:09:02  <welterde> that's why i am using both too
23:09:27  <Rubidium> Akoz: about 30 minutes after TrueBrain starts fixing it? Which is probably like 1 hour after he gets awake
23:09:33  <welterde> but lighttpd on front and nginx for file serving, because mod_alias doesn't like to play with mod_proxy :/
23:09:34  <Akoz> aww
23:09:39  <Rubidium> given that he just went to bed, that's going to take a while
23:10:10  <Rubidium> welterde: I really hope you're not proxying dav with lighty
23:10:18  <Akoz> sounds like I should do the same then and try again tomorrow
23:10:24  <welterde> nah.. no dav anywhere here
23:10:34  <Rubidium> Akoz: what's the bug you wanted to report anyway?
23:10:36  <welterde> but it used to leak memory too
23:10:46  <Akoz> I found more money hacks
23:10:49  <welterde> but can't remember how i fixed it
23:10:57  <SmatZ> Akoz: no! :(
23:11:00  <Akoz> nah.. I didnt.. I just wanted to post my imba patch :p
23:11:04  <Akoz>
23:11:07  <SmatZ> hehe
23:11:10  <SmatZ> I noticed it
23:11:17  <welterde> Rubidium: what version are you running?
23:11:29  <OwenS> of?
23:11:42  <Rubidium> can't nmap tell you that?
23:11:53  <Akoz> like it?
23:12:15  <OwenS> Rubidium: nmap just normally tells you OS versiion. And thats a herustic
23:12:15  <welterde> Rubidium: there i get the version of nginx :)
23:12:27  <welterde> (with curl -I .. actually)
23:12:46  <SmatZ> Akoz: haven't checked the code yet... but the idea might be useful :)
23:13:22  <Akoz> every time I get a private tell on the servers I keep wishing for the feature :p
23:13:24  <Rubidium> lighty uses some trunk version
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23:27:02  <SmatZ> Akoz:
23:27:08  <SmatZ> +			NetworkClientInfo *ci = NetworkFindClientInfoFromClientID((ClientID)this->dest);
23:27:10  <SmatZ> can be const
23:27:26  <SmatZ> when a client disconnects while query is open, it crashes
23:27:45  <SmatZ> when client has name longer than ~4 characters, it's truncated
23:27:54  <SmatZ> about name_reply.patch
23:28:55  <SmatZ> (+ patch merges with fuzz 1 for some reason, even though I am using r17150)
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23:29:39  <SmatZ> hello fonsinchen, I spent some time with your patch, but still it will take more time :)
23:29:53  <fonsinchen> hi
23:30:20  <fonsinchen> if I can help you with something, I will.
23:30:39  <SmatZ> actually, I had some ideas, but I didn't make any notes...
23:30:51  <SmatZ> maybe about using enum instead of bunch of static const ints
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23:33:54  <fonsinchen> could be done. In fact some of the dimensions are even common to all windows ...
23:37:00  <SmatZ> and one little feature request :)
23:37:22  <SmatZ> when player clicks the +/- buttons on the main toolbar, they are drawn as "pressed" for a while
23:37:35  <SmatZ> I think it would be nice to have in minimap too
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23:37:44  <SmatZ> if it's not too much of work/code
23:37:47  <SmatZ> it can be added later
23:38:03  <SmatZ> (in fact, it already has ~35 kB iirc)
23:38:28  <oskari89> "[02:04] <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17140 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change: allow higher sample rate and higher quality samples. Based on work by orudge."
23:38:43  <oskari89> Is this what i think it is?
23:38:54  <SmatZ> no
23:38:56  <SmatZ> yes
23:38:58  <SmatZ> maybe
23:39:03  <SmatZ> choose one
23:39:10  <KenjiE20> can you repeat the question
23:39:18  <welterde> %8ball is it what he thinks it is?
23:39:29  <welterde> :/
23:39:30  <SmatZ> :)
23:39:54  <Rubidium> there is a chance that there is a chance that the answer you are getting is the answer you are hoping for
23:39:54  <oskari89> Can do better sounds at .grf's than the nominal 11025 Hz 8-bit mono PCM?
23:40:11  <oskari89> r17140 onwards?
23:40:13  <SmatZ> :)
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23:41:02  <oskari89> Nice work if it is possible.
23:42:55  <oskari89> Rubidium knows? :=
23:42:56  <oskari89> *:)
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23:44:42  <oskari89> If it would allow 44100 Hz 16-bit stereo/mono samples, it would be nice :)
23:45:00  <Rubidium> I didn't change anything at the NewGRF side, so I'm not sure *at all*
23:45:11  <Rubidium> best way to find out is to test it
23:45:40  <oskari89> Hmm.
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23:46:23  <oskari89> If it's possible, it definately is a good thing.
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23:52:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r17151 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3104] (r13974): A train entering a PBS section through a block signal could cause a train crash if another reservation ending at a safe tile was already present in the section.
23:52:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r17152 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp water_cmd.cpp): -Fix: A stuck train could free the reservation of another train if it was reversed or did crash.
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23:57:49  <fonsinchen> I'll have a look at the +/- buttons
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