Log for #openttd on 16th October 2009:
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05:01:55  <Rhamphoryncus> umm wow... presignals are stupidly simple once you realize how to use them, and how *little* you need
05:08:42  <Rhamphoryncus> You don't put a signal at the start of a block.  You only put one at the end, and the start happens automagically
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05:12:49  <Rhamphoryncus> and it's quite easy to crash them while messing with the layout..
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05:15:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Huh.  Won't go backwards through a signal to a depot
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05:48:35  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: it's usually a good idea to use an entry-signal with pre-signals
05:54:03  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: path signals seem to be as good in some cases, better in others
05:54:32  <Rhamphoryncus> It seems that the presence of a path signal magically make a station have a hidden path signal too.  It does not do it to depots though
05:54:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Probably a bug
05:56:27  <Rhamphoryncus> heh, I can put a dummy path signal off to the side, then force a train past a normal signal, and it'll use pathing to avoid collisions
06:01:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Well, they'll try to.  If they can't find a path they'll continue forward, since you just told them to ignore the stopping point
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06:02:15  <Forked> \o/
06:02:27  <Yexo> good morning
06:04:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Huh.  My depots are pathing now.  Dunno why they choked before
06:08:17  <planetmaker> [07:54]	<Rhamphoryncus>	Probably a bug <-- most probable not ;-) but insufficient understanding
06:08:26  <planetmaker> especially of how they work, if you mix signal types
06:08:45  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
06:08:45  <Forked> morning Yexo :-)
06:09:09  <planetmaker> and moin Yexo :-)
06:09:19  <Rhamphoryncus> Further info: it seems trains will go backwards through one path signal, but not two.  I don't know if that's a hard limit or a side effect of pathing cost
06:09:21  <planetmaker> and everybody else, too :-)
06:09:21  <Yexo> hello Forked
06:09:22  <Yexo> hello planetmaker
06:09:51  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: yes, it probably is. They have comparably huge penalties
06:11:45  <planetmaker> e.g. you can nicely use them to set preferential routes for trains, so that e.g. the furthest station track is taken first by trains
06:11:46  <Rhamphoryncus> So when the path itself is quite large it could conceivably do 2 or more.. but it's still unlikely to skip ALLLLL the way down a two-way route
06:12:03  <planetmaker> them = backward path signals
06:13:26  <planetmaker> though making level crossings (using roads) is just as fine and might even work better in some of those cases
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06:15:54  * Rhamphoryncus tries a 3 track system
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06:35:51  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm.  Still times when a train doesn't move, but there's a path available
06:36:38  <Rhamphoryncus> playing with a 4 track system now btw
06:41:01  <Rhamphoryncus> Outer lanes are one-way to avoid deadlock.  Inner were two-way (plain pathing, but different at either end).  Now I'm experimenting with just plain paths for the inner though
06:47:54  <Rhamphoryncus> heh, apparently giving back access to the station eliminates the stopping point
06:48:53  <Rhamphoryncus> and confuses the hell out of the train.. it still wants that slot, but it can't stop there until the entire block is cleared
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06:50:07  <andythenorth> morning
07:29:21  <planetmaker> morning andythenorth
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07:32:19  <boekabart> mornin'
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07:42:44  <andythenorth> no Pikka?
07:42:46  <andythenorth> No pikka
07:42:51  <andythenorth> No nfo help :)
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09:32:49  * Rubidium wonders how often people update their working copies/nightlies
09:33:14  <andythenorth> when there's something interesting to test?
09:33:46  * andythenorth wonders what I've done wrong this time...
09:33:46  <andythenorth>
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09:34:28  <boekabart> Rubidium: no way to check svn up stats, nightly download stats
09:34:46  <boekabart> ??
09:35:09  <Rubidium> boekabart: was more a rethorical question
09:35:54  <Rubidium> andythenorth: a former teacher would say the compiler doesn't understand the last bit because it's not commented
09:36:09  <boekabart> it wasn't a question even, just a wondering :)
09:36:25  <andythenorth> Rubidium: good point
09:36:26  <Rubidium> nightly download stats yes, svn up stats no
09:36:34  <andythenorth> it is just a bunch of action 3s for industry tiles
09:36:54  <Rubidium> besides that... svn up stats don't tell how often (per working copy) an update is done
09:37:07  <Rubidium> only how often in total (or maybe per IP) an update is done
09:37:17  <boekabart> I meant per ip-ish, yes
09:38:03  <Rubidium> we don't gather download/ip stats
09:38:42  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I've added a few comments
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10:15:16  <insulfrog> hi
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10:29:54  <andythenorth> yay
10:30:06  <andythenorth> I think my stockpiling code is one step closer to working
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10:53:24  <andythenorth> hmm
10:53:44  <andythenorth> stockpiling produces  *lot* of acceptance change news flashes
10:55:19  <b_jonas> I never read acceptance change news flashes
10:55:23  <b_jonas> they are useless
10:56:12  <andythenorth> I'd like to suppress them
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10:56:18  <andythenorth> but I guess that's up to the player
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10:59:05  <andythenorth> Rubidium: if the production callback is called very 256 ticks, how many times is that per month (assume 30 days)
10:59:06  <andythenorth> ?
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10:59:31  <Rubidium> 74 ticks a day
11:00:20  <andythenorth> so about 8.7 times in a 30 day montb
11:00:24  <andythenorth> month*
11:00:37  <andythenorth> 'average' !
11:02:35  <andythenorth> and now I've found my mistake :)
11:03:51  <boekabart> Devs; would it be an idea to add to the VC80/90 vcproj the following:
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11:04:29  <boekabart> AdditionalLibraryDirectories="$(OPENTTD_USEFUL)\win32\library"
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11:04:45  <boekabart> (and similar for AdditionalIncludeDirectories)
11:05:24  <boekabart> this way, everyone can put them anywhere they want; no-one NEEDS to include them in the VC default include dirs (because sometimes that's not good for other projects)
11:05:57  <boekabart> it doesn't break current 'deployments'.
11:06:20  <Rubidium> well, you better talk to the window devs
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11:06:36  <boekabart> who's that this day and age?
11:06:36  <TrueBrain> and glx is not here yet ;)
11:06:43  <boekabart> :)
11:08:31  <b_jonas> openttd is not limited to 256 depots like ttd, is it?
11:08:44  <Yexo> no
11:09:14  <Yexo> boekabart: I think you can also add the include directory to the project settings, that way you don't have to include themin the default include dirs either
11:09:19  <b_jonas> okay, one more reason to try it after I've played enough with ttdpatch
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11:29:15  <Terkhen> good afternoon
11:30:43  <boekabart> Yexo: yes, but that way you always have a "M" project file, annoying when making patches
11:30:46  <boekabart>
11:31:29  <Yexo> boekabart: sorry, I don't have enough time to look at it now
11:31:46  <Yexo> maybe glx can help you and otherwise I'll have a look sunday/monday
11:31:53  <boekabart> that's exactly what this patch does: add it to the project settings, but as an env. variable. Nothing breaks if it's empty; and it can work for everyone
11:32:09  <boekabart> I'll post it on FS
11:32:55  <Yexo> I see, but I have to leave in 10 minutes so I can't test it now
11:41:30  <insulfrog> bbl
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11:44:20  <boekabart>
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12:02:38  <andythenorth> How's this for explanatory industry text?
12:02:39  <andythenorth> This industry will try and use Engineering Supplies to increase production.  Keep the stockpile above 0t for a chance of a production increase each month.  Stockpile max limit: 200t
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12:17:38  <b_jonas> what's the limit in ttd for the number of stations an industry delivers to?
12:19:12  <glx> 2
12:19:58  <b_jonas> and how do they choose? highest rating?
12:20:07  <glx> yes
12:20:13  <b_jonas> I see
12:20:17  <b_jonas> so that's why my train doesn't work
12:20:18  <b_jonas> thanks
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12:32:20  <boekabart> glx!
12:32:38  <boekabart> 'they' told me to talk to you about this
12:33:02  <Eddi|zuHause> did "they" tell you about Bielefeld, too?
12:33:48  <boekabart> Yes, about the Teutoburg Forest
12:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that means "they" trapped you in their Bielefeld Conspiracy!
12:35:20  <boekabart> hehe. I love that trillian pops up wikipedia explanations for stuff like that :)
12:35:21  <glx> boekabart: I'm used to the global setting, but why not :)
12:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause>
12:35:45  <boekabart> global setting: it conflicts with other stuff (for work) ...
12:36:02  <boekabart> and it's impractical to work as a different user for ottd
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12:58:02  <b_jonas> argh... I just built a great train network and my trains won't go in the right direction
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13:06:25  <Rubidium> boekabart: the M for projects comes from differences in '/src/', not from '/'
13:06:42  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: check for ill placed signals or missing catenary
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13:06:57  <boekabart> Rubidium: what?
13:07:22  <boekabart> you mean, I could ignore all changes in projects and just make patches for src\ ?
13:07:32  <boekabart> true but still a hackish hack
13:07:50  <Rubidium> oh, M there... though you were talking about the M in the version
13:08:04  <boekabart> ah i see. no
13:08:18  <boekabart> smart, btw, to make that src/ only
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13:09:09  <Rubidium> nevertheless, svn diff src/ makes a -p0 diff for '/' without changes in e.g. the project files
13:09:20  <Rubidium> (or at least my svn diff does)
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13:12:19  <b_jonas> still checking
13:12:45  <b_jonas> I have a track where the train can turn back and it turns back despite that the station is forward
13:12:55  <b_jonas> but if I remove that turn back track the train works well
13:13:58  <Rubidium> well, usually it 'just' means it can't go the other way so it's forced to go a way even when it'll eventually deadlock itself somewhere else
13:14:32  <glx> weird I have linking errors with icu
13:14:33  <boekabart> Rubidium: true, it does, it would just be nicer if one could work without this kind of local changes in his WC
13:14:43  <boekabart> that's why severity is just Low
13:14:46  <boekabart> 'nice-to-have'
13:14:51  <glx> it used to work with my current setup
13:15:33  <Rubidium> ooh... glx is the second (or third if you count me) to notice
13:15:46  <Rubidium> after almost 2 days and 7 hours
13:15:59  * boekabart has it too
13:16:08  <boekabart> libicu.lib(udata.obj) : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol __imp__icudt42_dat
13:16:27  <glx> yup
13:16:34  <Rubidium> the solution is simple... if you know where to 'look'
13:16:45  <glx> update openttd useful ?
13:17:10  * glx knows there's a new version
13:17:18  <boekabart> how new?
13:17:33  <glx> like today :)
13:17:41  <Rubidium> < 4 hours
13:17:42  <boekabart> ah yes
13:17:47  <boekabart> wiki needs updating, still says 2.3
13:18:05  <Rubidium> wiki shouldn't mention versions; it's always out-of-date that way
13:19:04  <Rubidium> *especially* when a moron comes along and changes august 2007 into something else for the DirectX SDK
13:19:23  <boekabart> hehe
13:19:54  <b_jonas> argh
13:20:16  <b_jonas> I don't get it
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13:20:25  <Rubidium> or a moron on wikipedia that changes 'openttd is written in C++ since 0.6.0' into 'openttd is written in C++ since 0.7.2' or so
13:20:39  <Rubidium> b_jonas: then help us helping you...
13:21:03  <b_jonas> should I post ttdpatch savegames or screenshots with descriptions?
13:21:14  <Rubidium> oh, it's TTDPatch?
13:21:17  <b_jonas> yes
13:21:28  <b_jonas> maybe I should leave larger gaps between the signals after and before the turnback
13:21:32  <glx> or use an overcomplicated method to install DXSDK, like install latest and extract dmusic stuff from august 2007
13:21:49  <Rubidium> then it's just the PF only looking a relatively small number of tiles
13:21:50  <b_jonas> but it fails even with no other trains close so I don't think that would help
13:21:59  <Rubidium> you need to add waypoints etc. to route trains properly there
13:22:11  <glx> yeah linking works now :)
13:22:18  <b_jonas> Rubidium: doesn't it look at the general direction where the destination station is?
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13:23:48  <b_jonas> anyway, waypoints might be a good idea
13:24:23  <b_jonas> I'll try adding two waypoints forward and two backwards
13:24:26  <Rubidium> b_jonas: don't know specifics, but probably going back went closer to the destination quicker or so
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13:25:36  <glx> boekabart: ok your patch doesn't break my setup :)
13:26:20  <glx> but it adds a warning, The following environment variables were not found: $(OTTD_USEFUL)
13:27:56  <b_jonas> or maybe I just shouldn't have the turnback at the middle of the route
13:28:14  <b_jonas> the two turnbacks near the ends are needed in case all station platforms are full
13:29:41  <b_jonas> can I use presignals for a station where trains enter and leave on the same side?
13:30:19  <b_jonas> yes i can
13:30:23  <b_jonas> this example shows how
13:30:27  <b_jonas> okay, I'll try that
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13:35:53  <boekabart> glx: yes, can we translate that warning somehow?
13:36:02  <boekabart> (not that I know of)
13:36:28  <glx> well the warning is valid and harmless
13:36:40  <glx> but I don't like warnings
13:37:15  <boekabart> are you pondering what i'm pondering?
13:37:28  <Rubidium> not committing it?
13:38:52  <boekabart> Uh, I think so Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.
13:39:42  * glx checks if it's a problem if "treat warnings as errors" is enabled
13:39:57  <boekabart> Is that default for release?
13:40:22  <glx> it used to be enabled :)
13:40:33  <boekabart> and rightfully so
13:40:46  <boekabart> we can always add it to ignored warnings
13:40:55  <boekabart> *ugh* quick and dirty *uugh*
13:41:15  <glx> there's no warning code for this one :)
13:41:18  <Rubidium> can you? Or is that some project setting too? I only know the stuff in stdafx.h
13:44:12  * boekabart is trying the 'existing deployments don't break' scenario too
13:44:47  <Rubidium> says you can't disable the warning
13:45:12  <boekabart> indeed, so the question is, is it a 'treat warnings as errors' warning
13:45:37  <Rubidium> luckily the compile farm doesn't bother about MSVC warnings *or* failures/errors (it doesn't notify us)
13:45:48  <Belugas> hello
13:46:06  <boekabart> eh-oh!
13:47:32  <Rubidium> MSVC is very good in a) delivering (some) binaries on failure and doesn't know stderr
13:48:02  <Rubidium> which is why the link failure took 2 days before someone notified us
13:48:26  <Rubidium> although I'm still wondering why it failed to link
13:48:39  <boekabart> supposedly, vs 10 will solve all this for us
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13:49:30  <Rubidium> hahaha
13:50:18  <boekabart> i SAID supposedly!
13:50:34  <glx> ok the warning doesn't prevent compilation when warnings are treated as errors
13:50:39  <Rubidium> supposedly windows vista has/was going to have winfs
13:50:57  <boekabart> glx: same here
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13:52:54  <Rubidium> let me say: don't install it on a working system, but run it in something virtualised
13:53:08  <Rubidium> uninstalling it breaks MSVC2005/2008
13:55:13  <Rubidium> and upgrading the project files doesn't work (at least in beta1)
13:55:35  <glx> it's so MS ;?
13:55:49  <glx> s/?/)/
13:55:53  <Sacro> Rubidium: longhorn was, vista wasn't
13:56:37  <boekabart> Sacro: nice spin...
13:56:53  <Rubidium> Sacro: Vista's original codename, "Longhorn"
13:57:52  <Rubidium> but heh, they're only working on structured storage for like... 20 years
13:58:08  <glx> so should we commit FS#3269 or not?
13:59:44  <Rubidium> depends on how often *you* want to tell people it isn't harmful and it should be ignored and that adding it + ignoring the warning is better than not adding it
14:00:43  <glx> well even with this warning the result is 3>openttd - 0 erreur(s), 0 avertissement(s)
14:00:46  <boekabart> autoreply-bot?
14:01:02  <Rubidium> on the forum?
14:01:05  <Rubidium> on the bug tracker?
14:01:17  <boekabart> yes! on all!
14:01:37  <boekabart> it's not a warning in the IDE warning-list
14:02:24  <Rubidium> does it end up in stderr in MSVC2010?
14:02:39  <boekabart> no way to know until it's released
14:03:16  <boekabart> but msvc2010 has completely different project files so ... not yet relevant anyway.
14:10:18  <boekabart> Project : warning PRJ0018 : The following environment variables were not found:
14:10:23  <boekabart> sounds like it's ignorable
14:10:57  <Rubidium> boekabart: only for a small percentage of 'users'
14:11:43  <Rubidium> most people will read it as "the error" for their failure to patch
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14:12:22  <insulfrog> afternoon all
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14:13:17  * insulfrog is playing an openttd game
14:13:20  <boekabart> I mean, ignorable somehow
14:13:26  <boekabart> but it seems not to be
14:13:36  <boekabart> and it _does_ show in build warning list
14:14:37  <Rubidium> anyhow, the idea of the patch is good... just that it adds a pointless warning isn't :(
14:15:32  <boekabart> a pre-build "set OTTD_USEFUL=%OTTD_USEFUL%" doesn't help
14:15:51  <glx> it's a project warning
14:19:04  * boekabart has to go pick up a little girl from the daycare
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15:04:18  <insulfrog> wb Pikka
15:04:41  <andythenorth> yay, Pikka
15:05:14  <Pikka> hi
15:05:19  <andythenorth> Got production boosting and stockpiling working
15:05:25  <andythenorth> might have some dodgy code though
15:05:26  <Pikka> well done :)
15:09:38  <andythenorth> For my next trick I have to learn to use the text reference stack in conjunction with cb 3A
15:09:51  <andythenorth> or I end up with a bazillion strings for each industry
15:11:32  <Pikka> hehe
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15:48:29  <Muxy> @seen luukland
15:48:29  <DorpsGek> Muxy: luukland was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 22 hours, 19 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Luukland> Muxy? Goulp?
15:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the joy of people always missing each other ;)
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15:57:35  <MyCatVerbs> Sex on a DOOR but OpenTTD builds fast.
15:57:46  <MyCatVerbs> 2 minutes 14 seconds on my laptop from scratch. ^^
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16:19:06  <insulfrog> bbl
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17:05:14  <Pikka> hmm
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17:08:25  <andythenorth> hmm
17:08:31  <andythenorth> hmm hmm hmm
17:08:37  <andythenorth> mmh hmm
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17:12:42  <Pikka> exactly
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17:15:50  <Pikka> ahhh
17:16:07  <Pikka> what fun this business of fake-reversing trains is :D
17:16:16  <Pikka> especially when you have to deal with vehicles of differing lengths
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17:33:48  <Belugas> [13:16] <Pikka> what fun this business of fake-reversing trains is :D  <--- try payment processing and customer requirements, now that is a hell lot more funny business..
17:33:57  <Belugas> like NOT!
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17:42:20  <andythenorth> if you think that's fun, try writing nice text for industry windows
17:42:30  <andythenorth> *that's* fun
17:42:42  <Belugas> hahaha
17:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather work on real reversing instead of fake reversing...
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17:45:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r17779 /trunk/src/lang/ (3 files in 2 dirs):
17:45:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: basque - 5 changes by Thadah
17:45:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by Petert
17:45:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 31 changes by nglekhoi
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17:50:27  <andythenorth> Opinions please
17:50:28  <andythenorth>
17:50:35  <andythenorth> I trust you guys more than I trust the forum bunnies
17:50:45  <andythenorth> I need just enough text to explain things
17:50:54  <andythenorth> And not so much that it looks complex
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17:53:23  <Albert> since when can we stretch that window? D:
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17:55:07  <Pikka> I mean, the text part.  or does it automatically expand for longer text?
17:56:12  <andythenorth> Pikka: it just expands to fit my text?
17:56:17  <andythenorth> I'm running recent nightly
17:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> whoa... i just thought Alberth was asking that question...
17:56:25  <Pikka> I'd leave out the * part :P  or say something like "Engineering supplies improve the chances of a production increase"
17:56:30  <Pikka> hehe
17:56:46  <Pikka> hmm
17:56:49  <Belugas> bunnies, funnies, newbies, stewpids
17:57:14  <Eddi|zuHause> armpits?
17:57:39  <Belugas> legpits?
17:57:44  <Rubidium> multithreaded/multiprocess stew making?
17:58:59  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I wish ;)
17:59:00  <andythenorth> Pikka: are you preferring the "don't tell the player everything" model of help text?
18:00:41  <Pikka> I think it's a fine line, andy
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18:01:16  <andythenorth> There's no game if you don't have to work it out :)
18:01:20  <Pikka> you don't really need to explain /everything/ in game, but on the other hand you don't want to be george
18:01:52  <Alberth> you can also publish such info in the download or at your site
18:02:09  <Alberth> or in a manual :p
18:02:17  <andythenorth> If I bit the bullet and learnt to use registers, I could worry less about explaining things to the player...
18:02:44  <andythenorth> The current problem is they will only get a chance of an increase if cargo is waiting *at the end of the month*
18:03:38  <Pikka> you also don't necessarily have to explain the precise mechanics of how it works, as long as players get the gist :P
18:03:51  <andythenorth> I've simplified the text to your suggestion, it works fine
18:03:59  <Rubidium> but... isn't it "better" to just show a string of meaningless numbers? :)
18:04:10  <andythenorth> I can do that too
18:04:12  <andythenorth> I'll try it
18:04:14  <andythenorth> right now
18:04:16  <andythenorth> ...
18:04:17  <andythenorth> ...
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18:04:18  <andythenorth> ...
18:04:19  <andythenorth> NOT
18:04:33  <Pikka> Rubidium: Prod: (15, 21, 0, 0, 0, 0), says the ECS glassworks!
18:04:38  <Alberth> stopping accepting will soon get noticed by the players, not sure you need to spend 2 lines text on that
18:04:52  <Rubidium> would be fun to mix octal, decimal and hexadecimal in those strings
18:05:00  <andythenorth> Engineering Supplies limit: 200 crates?
18:05:18  <Alberth> or xxx/200 crates
18:05:18  <andythenorth> Engineering Supplies limit: 200 crates *not currently accepting*
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18:05:38  <andythenorth> "Cargo Waiting to be Processed" isn't under my control :(
18:05:53  <frosch123> Alberth:stopping accepting will soon get noticed by the players, not sure you need to spend 2 lines text on that <- if the lines say "THIS IS INTENTIONAL, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS", they are fine
18:05:54  <andythenorth> Otherwise I could just stick (Max 200) on the end
18:06:32  <Alberth> frosch123:  :D
18:06:51  <Alberth> would be enought for me :)
18:07:39  <Pikka> wheee
18:08:03  <andythenorth> Nice :)
18:08:40  <Pikka> andy, you could do it like TaI, have a line which says no supplies / how fast the supplies are being consumed / stockpile limit looming :)
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18:10:19  <StarLionIsaac> TaI defines industries too? I thought it was just a town building set
18:10:55  <frosch123> you should explore more about the meaning of "TaI"
18:11:01  <frosch123> especially the "I" part :p
18:11:15  <StarLionIsaac> I do know that, I just never noticed any changes to industries before
18:11:26  <StarLionIsaac> that might have something to do with the fact I usually play with all the ECS vectors loaded though
18:11:31  <Pikka> TaI is more than one grf
18:11:43  <Pikka> and only the houses have been released :P
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18:12:02  <Luukland> ladies, may I ask why max companies is set to 15?
18:12:16  <StarLionIsaac> that would explain it
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18:13:57  <Belugas> to what number you would like to have them, Luukland?
18:14:12  <Luukland> 20 if possible
18:14:19  <Luukland> Or 18 will also suffice
18:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: the problem i noticed with PBI was, that as long as it says "near stockpile limit", i have no information anymore about the speed of processing
18:14:26  <Belugas> hehehe
18:14:39  <Belugas> 1) problems with the colours
18:14:57  <Belugas> 2) problems with comapnies references in the code -> bitmap values -> 16 bits
18:15:00  <Luukland> Ah yes of course :P
18:15:13  <Belugas> 3) lots of savegames bumps to handle
18:15:15  <frosch123> Luukland: because there are 4 bits for storing the owner of certain tiles, and 1 is needed for town owner/no owner
18:15:17  <Belugas> 4) etc etc
18:15:44  <Luukland> dang, so raising it would cost a lot of work or can't be done completely?
18:15:45  <Belugas> and what frosch123 said, indeed
18:16:13  <Belugas> people will NEVER be satisfied, no matter what is given
18:16:24  <Luukland> If you give a finger
18:16:26  <Belugas> hey guys, why not 32?
18:16:27  <Belugas> 40?
18:16:28  <Luukland> we will take the hand :p
18:16:29  <Belugas> 100?
18:16:41  <andythenorth> Pikka: if I get extra friendly with the text stack, I might do it like TaI
18:16:52  <andythenorth> probably a future enhancement though :D
18:17:17  <Rubidium> Belugas: infinite ofcourse...
18:17:21  <Luukland> :P
18:17:27  <Rubidium> it shouldn't even be limited by memory
18:17:43  <Luukland> Or what a fiberglass bandwith can handle :p
18:17:52  <Luukland> 100mbit 1,2kb/s a client :p
18:17:58  <Luukland> So thats around 800 clients xD
18:18:04  <Pikka> plz to make 1048576*1048576 maps too
18:18:05  <Luukland> or even more :p
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18:18:40  <sawtooth> hmm...i wonder why the recent trunk releases eat up 100% of my cpu
18:18:54  <andythenorth> home time
18:18:57  <Luukland> Anyways, thx for the answer, pls next time hold the sarcasm Belugas, dont be such an ass to ppl who just ask normal questions
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18:19:04  <andythenorth> no more work for me today
18:19:08  <andythenorth> except the nfo kind
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18:19:25  <frosch123> sawtooth: what is recent? since r17776?
18:19:27  <Belugas> ? sarcasm?  me? ho no not at all...
18:19:29  <Belugas> did I?
18:19:37  <sawtooth> frosch123: i think even a bit before that
18:19:54  <frosch123> since you added lots of noais in game?
18:20:07  <sawtooth> using none.  cpu is even pegged at the main menu
18:20:10  <frosch123> since you play on a 2k x 2k map?
18:20:20  <Rubidium> sawtooth: what OS?
18:20:23  <sawtooth> linux
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18:20:32  <Rubidium> sawtooth: is the music running?
18:20:36  <sawtooth> no
18:20:46  <StarLionIsaac> linux might explain it there - it always runs at near to 100% on any Ubuntu box I've run OTTD on
18:20:58  <sawtooth> 0.7.3 doesn't hog cpu for me
18:21:26  <StarLionIsaac> I wouldn't know about that, I only run the nightlies
18:22:15  <frosch123> main menu uses 10% on my 5 years old machine
18:22:23  <sawtooth> i did remove all the newgrf's and reset to default settings.  window/fulscreen doesn't make a difference either
18:22:46  <sawtooth> wonder if i should try with sfx off
18:22:59  <frosch123> (though i never know what 10% means with HT)
18:23:03  <Rubidium> sawtooth: can you find since which revision it became much slower?
18:23:30  <Rubidium> frosch123: usually 10% of one 'core', i.e. I've had > 100% some times
18:24:05  <sawtooth> Rubidium: i could try...might take a while though :)
18:24:13  <Rubidium> what video backend are you using?
18:24:16  <Rubidium> allegro or sdl?
18:24:30  <sawtooth> where is that setting at?
18:24:57  <Rubidium> it autodetects it; run with -d driver=1
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18:27:06  <sawtooth> using sdl
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18:28:08  <Rubidium> hmm, then I don't have a clue
18:28:11  <StarLionIsaac> out of curiosity, is there any significant difference to using allegro?
18:28:16  <Rubidium> good luck bisecting then
18:29:28  <sawtooth> cpu at main menu in 0.7.3 is 6-11% or so
18:29:41  <sawtooth> i guess i'll have to test a bunch of revisions then
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18:31:02  <Rubidium> sawtooth: bisecting is usually the best approach
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18:35:40  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: allegro doesn't like resizing to 'any' resolution, sdl does; sdl doesn't do midi, allegro does (or can do)
18:39:16  <Rubidium> and sdl is a few percent faster than allegro
18:39:16  <StarLionIsaac> ah, I see
18:39:16  <StarLionIsaac> useful to know if I ever want to make things harder deliberatly, basically
18:39:16  <Rubidium> with allegro you can run OpenTTD in dosbox though
18:39:16  <StarLionIsaac> I guess that might help if you need to run the DOS version... I can't see myself running it on an emulated DOS within Linux though
18:39:16  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the mac users, if (dar)wine doesn't work :p
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18:40:03  <StarLionIsaac> actually, wine seems to handle it pretty well, and darwine, as I understand it is wine ported to OSX, so it should handle it similarly
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18:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause> "should"...
18:44:22  <StarLionIsaac> I know, should being the operative, I'm assuming that since under wine the past two weeks nightlies have worked on a five year old laptop, they'll work on a recent mac
18:44:40  <StarLionIsaac> probably a flawed premise, but I've never touched a mac, let alone used one
18:46:27  <Prof_Frink> If only there was someone employed by Codeweavers here...
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19:12:25  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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19:12:55  <andythenorth> evening
19:13:01  <insulfrog> hi
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19:13:25  <Nite_Owl> Hello andythenorth & insulfrog
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19:19:53  <Nite_Owl> was it my breath ??
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19:20:25  <insulfrog> dunno :p
19:22:04  <MyCatVerbs> Guten tag, Andy.
19:22:21  <MyCatVerbs> Oh, wait, lost him. Oops, fail.
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20:02:40  <insulfrog> wb welshdragon
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20:11:45  <Albert> wut
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20:12:37  <frosch123> did you change your timezone?
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20:14:19  <insulfrog> g2g, cyas
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20:16:15  <sawtooth> the change that is causing 100% cpu usage on linux was introduced way back in 17140 as part of an update in the sound code
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20:16:35  <sawtooth> well, causing 100% on my setup at least...
20:16:56  <StarLionIsaac> interesting.... I think I'm going to check this, is it that revision it starts, or that's the last one it doesn't happen on?
20:17:03  <sawtooth> where it starts
20:17:19  <sawtooth> 17139 was the last good revision
20:17:33  <sawtooth> the issue goes away if i use openttd -s null
20:17:52  <StarLionIsaac> I'm fairly certain for me it's been before then, but it has been a while
20:18:44  <frosch123> do you have a modified or similiar? some sound replacement?
20:18:56  <sawtooth> not that i'm aware of :)
20:19:06  <StarLionIsaac> the latter in my case, but for that old a revision that shouldn't matter
20:19:29  <StarLionIsaac> I think it's before the option to use openSFX from the menu
20:19:29  <frosch123> the ttd dos version or the ttd win version of
20:19:52  <frosch123> 17140 was before opensfx
20:19:53  <StarLionIsaac> both, but I use dos (german) by default because that's what it picks up first
20:20:16  <frosch123> that's the graphic set, the sound set is choosen independently
20:20:35  <sawtooth> r17140 -Change: allow higher sample rate and higher quality samples. Based on work by orudge.
20:21:10  <StarLionIsaac> if I grabbed a fresh install of the current trunk, back up and remove my current config, and start up, it'll pick up from dos (DE) first, then dos (ENG) then Win
20:21:16  <StarLionIsaac> then after that, OpenSFX
20:21:37  <StarLionIsaac> but for one that old, I'd guess it'll pick up the dos (DE) one, since that's what it seems to find first
20:21:49  <frosch123> there is only one dos sound set, de/non-de is only graphics
20:22:06  <StarLionIsaac> alright, my bad then, so dos then
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20:28:00  <StarLionIsaac> I can confirm it's revision 17140 where it starts using all available CPU on linux
20:28:11  <StarLionIsaac> and it doesn't appear matter which sound set is loaded, either
20:28:39  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: does -s sdl:hz=11025 fix the issue?
20:28:56  <sawtooth> StarLionIsaac: that fixed it for me.  something about the sample size...
20:29:46  <StarLionIsaac> it does, but the CPU usage is still significantly higher than r17139
20:30:13  <StarLionIsaac> approx 20-30% more usage, at a guess and a glance at Conky
20:32:01  <Rubidium> don't see a reason for the 20-30% extra usage though
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20:33:06  <StarLionIsaac> my guess may not be entirely accurate, since OpenTTD periodically dipped off the list of CPU using processes
20:33:34  <StarLionIsaac> plus, it was just a glance. I'm still fairly certain that there's some extra CPU usage between that suggested fix and the previous revision
20:33:36  <sawtooth> i tried setting the hz to 22050 and that seemed to be normal as well
20:34:44  <Rubidium> what does 48000 do?
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20:35:05  <sawtooth> high usage as well
20:35:31  <StarLionIsaac> for me too
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20:36:25  <StarLionIsaac> looking more carefully, setting it to 11025 makes it peak at 80% of the CPU usage, just before the main menu appears, but after that comes back down to about 40% usage
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20:36:38  <Migran> Normal version OTTD can be run in a mode 32bpp?
20:37:00  <Rubidium> yes
20:37:02  <frosch123> hehe, -s sdl:hz=33000 has simliar effect to me :p
20:37:20  <StarLionIsaac> Migran: Have a look on the OpenTTD Wiki to find out how to do it exactly
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20:38:02  <frosch123> StarLionIsaac: before the main menu appears ottd is loading and searching for files, high cpu usage is to be expected then
20:38:13  <Migran> thanks
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20:39:14  <StarLionIsaac> I guessed as such, as every version of OTTD I've run does the same, however, the more recent nightlies, this week's in particular, are peaking at 90% instead at that point, instead of the 80% I'm seeing with 17139 and 17140
20:39:38  <planetmaker> what does r12000 or so give you?
20:40:01  <frosch123> r12000? what's that?
20:40:25  <StarLionIsaac> planetmaker: give me a few moments to checkout and compile, and I'll be able to tell you
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20:41:54  <Rubidium> frosch123: sdl:hz=33000 has a similar effect for me too
20:45:46  <Rubidium> hmm.. fill_sound_buffer uses *more* CPU cycles with 44100 than with 33000, but with 33000 cycles it's using more CPU
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20:45:59  <Rubidium> so something happens in SDL
20:46:53  <StarLionIsaac> planetmaker: about 50% usage when OTTD starts up, and about 20% usage on the main menu, if that's what you meant by what it gives me
20:47:37  <planetmaker> yeah. I wondered about how it fares compared to recent nightlies
20:48:39  <StarLionIsaac> does suggest just how much extra there is now
20:48:57  <StarLionIsaac> also, I'm going to have to re-do my grflist, because r12000 just cleared all the bananas downloaded grfs from my list
20:49:07  <StarLionIsaac> I need to keep backups more often
20:50:03  <frosch123> just open your last autosave, and create a preset from the grfs used there
20:50:40  <StarLionIsaac> The last autosave is from a scenario with it's own list though
20:50:58  <StarLionIsaac> the last game using the closest to that list, doesn't load because it's from my pack, which I've slightly buggered
20:52:11  <Rubidium> if it doesn't find the bananas newgrfs it's 'obvious' it's faster, after all it doesn't do everything the newer revision does
20:52:51  <StarLionIsaac> Rubidium: all it did was remove the bananas ones from my list stored in the config file, it's not done anything else
20:54:10  <Rubidium> if it removes them from the config file it hasn't found them (and thus read their name)
20:54:13  <Rubidium> anyhow...
20:54:20  <Rubidium> some 'profiling' results:
20:54:52  <Rubidium> the first number is the number of CPU cycles for fill_sound_buffer/MxMixSamples, i.e. the mixing in OpenTTD
20:55:16  <Rubidium> with sdl:hz=33000 the sys time is, well... just huge
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20:56:11  <Rubidium> <- used to 'profile'
20:57:27  <Rubidium> can you 'reproduce' this increase in sys time between hz=11025 and hz=44100?
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20:59:15  <Rubidium> for what it's worth, allegro behaves 'fine' with hz=33000
20:59:43  <_ln> i heard the Halle (Saale) team won the ice hockey game.
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21:00:26  <StarLionIsaac> I can reproduce it most likely, if I can figure out why patch refuses to work today
21:01:50  <StarLionIsaac> it would help if I remembered to put -p0, I guess... today isn't going well for me
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21:04:05  <StarLionIsaac> Rubidium: I assume the results go directly to the console, or is a debug option needed? just checking
21:04:52  <Rubidium> go directly to the console
21:05:10  <Rubidium> as long as you don't forget to use time :)
21:05:36  <StarLionIsaac> should have results shortly then, please be patient while my ancient computer creaks into life once more
21:05:45  <StarLionIsaac> well, not that ancient, but definatly old
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21:16:54  <frosch123> sys     0m1.228s and sys     0m12.273s for me :)
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21:17:08  <StarLionIsaac> hmm, question - I'm missing the real/user/sys parts on mine
21:17:08  <frosch123> so debian and gentoo agree this time
21:17:24  <frosch123> you forgot "time" ?
21:17:43  <StarLionIsaac> uh... I may have misinterpreted that as 'leave it for some time'
21:17:55  <StarLionIsaac> what exactly was it meant to mean
21:18:09  <frosch123> time executes a command and measures the used time
21:18:42  <StarLionIsaac> so, start it with "openttd time -s sdl:hz-44100" ?
21:18:56  <frosch123> no, "time openttd -s sdl:ht=44100"
21:18:56  <Rubidium> time openttd -s sdl:hz=44100
21:19:11  <StarLionIsaac> ah, gotcha... here goes again
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21:22:19  <StarLionIsaac> Rubidium: Here's the results from me:
21:22:56  <Rubidium> hz=.... not hz=-
21:23:01  <Rubidium> uhm..
21:23:04  <Rubidium> hz=.... not hz-...
21:23:22  <StarLionIsaac> gah, I might get it right yet
21:26:21  <sawtooth>
21:28:01  <Belugas> if you ask me, i prefer rz to hz...
21:28:05  <frosch123> user 18 -> 1 :o, is it everytime like that?
21:28:38  <StarLionIsaac> Rubidium: try this, maybe I've got it right this time
21:30:22  <Rubidium> the first debug line actually belongs to the 11025 hz case, right?
21:31:00  <StarLionIsaac> uh, yes... minor C&P error I made there, sorry
21:31:07  <Rubidium> can you try the allegro sound driver, -s allegro (you might need to install allegro + reconfigure and recompile)
21:31:50  <StarLionIsaac> if both sdl and allegro are present, which will configure pick up and use?
21:31:59  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: both
21:32:09  <Rubidium> at runtime sdl is prefered IIRC
21:32:33  <StarLionIsaac> ah, then in that case, does anyone know the name of the ubuntu package for allegro
21:33:02  <Rubidium> liballegro4.2-dev ?
21:33:21  <Rubidium> + the same but without -dev
21:33:32  <Rubidium> although that's probably automatically selected
21:33:55  <StarLionIsaac> indeed it is, I just didn't want to run through the entire list of packages again tonight
21:34:15  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: apt-cache search <keyword>
21:34:28  <StarLionIsaac> never knew about that one
21:35:18  <Rubidium> or in aptitude /allegro to start searching, n to go to the next hit
21:35:48  <StarLionIsaac> I've never got on well with aptitude, I prefer to use apt-get if I know the package, or Synaptic if I don't
21:35:55  <StarLionIsaac> or Adept, if I'm in KDE, which isn't often
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21:43:18  <StarLionIsaac> recompiled with allegro installed, except it doesn't get started. Debug output says Failed to set up Allegro sound
21:43:30  <StarLionIsaac> hmm, no restart needed after installed allegro, is there?
21:43:42  <Rubidium> shouldn't be needed
21:44:05  <StarLionIsaac> strange
21:44:18  <StarLionIsaac> I tried to run it with openttd -s allegro
21:44:24  <StarLionIsaac> nothing else, except the time
21:44:48  <Rubidium> bah :(
21:44:55  <Rubidium> why doesn't allegro start
21:45:14  <StarLionIsaac> sadly, my psychic link to my local linux expert died this morning, so I can't help there
21:45:21  <andythenorth> evening
21:47:45  <Rubidium> what error does give?
21:50:22  <StarLionIsaac> more details, give me a moment to get them from the terminal
21:51:00  <StarLionIsaac> here:
21:51:10  <StarLionIsaac> this is all it gets, it doesn't even manage to draw the window for OTTD
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21:52:29  <Rubidium> that's because it aborts quite early
21:52:45  <Rubidium> but not being able to set alsa properties isn't a good sign
21:52:54  <sawtooth> was there allegro stuff fixed after 17140?
21:53:49  <StarLionIsaac> this is using the current nightly, by the way... does that make much difference?
21:53:51  <Rubidium> sawtooth: not that I'm aware of
21:53:55  <andythenorth> Is it time to attempt some register code in nfo, or is that for another day?
21:53:56  <sawtooth> i got the same error as StarLionIsaac regarding it not being able to open the midi device
21:53:57  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: nope
21:54:14  <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's always time to attempt something
21:54:27  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: is pulseaudio running?
21:54:37  <sawtooth> i do have pulseaudio running here
21:54:40  <StarLionIsaac> possibly, and likely
21:55:22  <StarLionIsaac> correction: yes, it's definatly running
21:55:30  <Rubidium> can you kill it?
21:55:32  <Sacro> < pa
21:55:35  <Sacro> <3 even
21:55:43  <StarLionIsaac> not without losing all sound entirely, something I'd rather avoid
21:55:51  <Sacro> pasuspender
21:56:36  <StarLionIsaac> uh... right, now how exactly does that work
21:57:05  <frosch123> night
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22:00:53  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: the other possibility is compiling a newer (4.4? allegro)
22:02:04  <StarLionIsaac> all I have in the available repositories is 4.2, so unless there's an addable repo with it, I'll have to compile allegro itself as well
22:02:04  <Rubidium> hmm, which version of allegro got installed?
22:02:32  <StarLionIsaac> 4.2... and I'd rather not compile allegro myself, I don't think I've got enough space
22:02:39  <StarLionIsaac> at least not on this box
22:03:04  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: I need to know the 3rd digit
22:03:13  <Rubidium> I fear it's 2 (3 might fix the issue)
22:03:41  <StarLionIsaac> apt-cache search allegro just lists 4.2, I can check the detailed description to see if it has one as well
22:04:03  <Rubidium> allegro-config --version
22:04:23  <StarLionIsaac> 4.2.2 then
22:06:56  <Rubidium> bah... package maintainers haven't updated the package :(
22:07:29  <Rubidium> but... is stopping pulseaudio just to test something really a problem?
22:07:34  <Rubidium> does it break that much?
22:07:34  <StarLionIsaac> this is Ubuntu Jaunty, if Ubuntu Karmic has an updated one, then wait until the 29th, when Karmic is released
22:07:46  <StarLionIsaac> it doesn't break as such, just prevent anything from making any sound at all
22:12:01  * Rubidium wonders whether the problem may lie in pulseaudio's resampling
22:12:40  <StarLionIsaac> again, that may have been fixed in a later version that isn't in Ubuntu's repo's
22:13:39  *** Netsplit over, joins: sawtooth, TrueBrain, Rexxars, Tefad, gouki, mikegrb
22:14:05  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I liked this channel more a few moment ago
22:14:59  <Sacro> you're not the only one
22:15:28  <TrueBrain> you do understand that should result in a certain event happening, the BOFH speaking inside me, right?
22:15:49  <Sacro> oh TrueBrain *hugs*
22:15:55  <TrueBrain> :p
22:16:10  <TrueBrain> this is what is called 'conditioning' ;)
22:16:11  <Sacro> you know we love you
22:17:06  <Sacro> nah
22:17:12  <Sacro> this is more like 'grooming'
22:18:10  <Rubidium> StarLionIsaac: then I've got no clue how to find out what's the (exact) cause of the problem
22:18:32  *** Rubidium [] has left #openttd [oh yes, conditioning... I remember that]
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22:18:50  <andythenorth> Improved?
22:18:54  <andythenorth>
22:19:36  *** Cybertinus [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:26:43  <andythenorth> ach, bedtime
22:26:48  <andythenorth> good night
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22:40:37  <Terkhen> good night
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22:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the first time ever i remember rubidium leaving...
22:43:55  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, the logs show like 5 more times...
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