Log for #openttd on 17th October 2009:
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07:04:56  <andythenorth> morning
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07:15:21  <Terkhen> good morning
07:20:04  <andythenorth> morning
07:21:54  <andythenorth> Are cargo subtype texts useful?
07:22:14  <andythenorth> Do they add to gameplay, or are they just a bit too much detail?
07:22:38  <andythenorth> For example, 'Engineering Supplies (Cement)', 'Goods (Cars)'
07:24:21  <Rhamphoryncus> Off hand, if goods are really cars then why not just say cars?
07:25:11  <andythenorth> Because they aren't cars, they're goods?
07:25:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Then the subtext is wrong and irrelevant
07:25:36  <andythenorth> (There are max 32 cargos available, so we have to make some allowances)
07:26:07  <andythenorth> I worry too that it confuses players
07:26:51  <andythenorth> "Can I ship Engineering Supplies (Cement) in any old vehicle that refits to ES, or do I need one that refits to Engineering Supplies (Cement)?"
07:27:00  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
07:27:11  <andythenorth> ^^ Is the kind of thing that I think would go through players minds
07:27:12  <Rhamphoryncus> And actually, I'd expect that to be Construction Supplies
07:27:26  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: again, stuck with the 32 cargo limit ;)
07:27:34  <andythenorth> Certain compromises have been made
07:27:49  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm not saying to add another category.  I'm saying that engineering supplies is misnamed ;)
07:28:47  <Rhamphoryncus> What engineering supplies brings to mind has more to do with architecture and design
07:30:39  <andythenorth> Well in FIRS it covers everything from cement to mining trucks, it's a broad composite cargo
07:30:45  <andythenorth> ;)
07:31:32  <Rhamphoryncus> again I'd associate that with construction equipment.. but then, I'm not an engineer
07:31:48  <Rhamphoryncus> And it could be a difference in language
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07:36:24  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
07:36:24  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 9 hours, 39 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
07:36:37  <andythenorth> ^^ must be time for him to get up and come to play here
07:36:43  <andythenorth> I went to sleep when he did...
07:36:47  <andythenorth> and I'm coding again :)
07:37:01  <andythenorth> plus, I HAVE IMPORTANT NFO QUESTIONS DAMMIT :P
07:45:32  <Alberth> hmm, counting is not one of the strong points of my package manager :p
07:46:17  <Alberth> kpackagekit thinks I have 1608 updates, while yum only has 49 :)
07:48:12  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17780 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: A bit more code style in the autoreplace window.
07:58:22  <planetmaker> moin
07:58:31  <planetmaker> [09:21]	<andythenorth>	Are cargo subtype texts useful? <-- imo they add to the atmosphere. yes
07:58:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker: what about the points above about confusing players?
07:59:37  <planetmaker> if provided in the way as I know them "Engineering supplies (cement)" etc I personally don't consider it too confusing
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07:59:43  <planetmaker> but just my personal 2ct ;-)
08:10:58  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17781 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Remove local variable 'selected_group' from autoreplace window.
08:12:51  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17782 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3270]: animation wasn't removed from station tiles when keeping the rail during removal
08:14:51  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17783 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Remove local pointer variable 'widget' from autoreplace window.
08:16:52  * andythenorth still doesn't understand how to end a callback chain correctly
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08:19:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17784 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Replace 'i' with 'side' when side is intended in the autoreplace window.
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08:54:38  <boekabart> moggel
08:54:45  * boekabart can't believe he just said that
09:00:06  <TrueBrain> and I am doing my best to ignore it:p
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10:10:52  <andythenorth> FIRS FIRS FIRS
10:11:07  <andythenorth> Mines store up to 200 crates of Engineering Supplies...
10:11:13  <andythenorth> Forests seem like they should do a bit less
10:11:18  <andythenorth> maybe 120 crates?
10:11:29  <andythenorth> Mines use pit props and fuel and machinery and stuff
10:11:48  <andythenorth> Forests are a bit less demanding...
10:14:13  <andythenorth> ach screw it, I'll code it then try a game
10:14:13  <andythenorth> then I can tweak them later
10:18:35  <Coco-Banana-Man> how long will it need until it's empty again?
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10:48:32  <Drake2> hello
10:48:52  <Drake2> anybody here?
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10:54:55  <Drake2> hello...
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11:01:14  * andythenorth broke something
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11:24:39  <George> Belugas: Are you here?
11:25:32  <George> What about FS1862? You wrote that you were working on it. How far are you from finishing it?
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11:29:06  <Alberth> George: usually, he is not here during the weekend (sometimes just for a short while)
11:29:41  <George> I know, but evering can happen ;)
11:30:33  <George> Looks like not only me became interested in FS1862, so I decided to ask
11:31:49  <frosch123> hmm, i had a patch for that about 1.5 years ago. was it never committed?
11:39:47  <frosch123> it is agains r12362 :p
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11:46:16  <frosch123> yeah, i remember there were issues with ttdp
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11:49:12  <Pikka> DaleStan: thanks for correcting the var2 wiki entry.  I wasn't sure what it meant originally, and obviously I leapt the wrong way trying to clarify it.
11:49:14  <frosch123> <- looks like the last proposal was to return the number of parameters needed in var100, and the textstack starting from 101. which was iirc a requirement by ttdp, as ottd does not need the var100
11:50:50  <Pikka> erm, random 2 wiki entry
11:55:49  <frosch123> George: who got also interested in it?
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11:58:11  <Pikka> andy, frosch123
11:58:46  <frosch123> ah, the firs guy
11:58:55  <Pikka> oui
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12:06:26  <insulfrog> hi all
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12:32:10  <insulfrog> I have posted some screenies of my network in it's current condition on the tt forums
12:32:42  <insulfrog> shown here: -
12:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd has a builtin screenshot function, you know...
12:34:44  <insulfrog> never thought to use it :p
12:36:22  <insulfrog> although I found it easier just to use the Alt+PrintScreen key(s)
12:36:59  <insulfrog> It's just what I'm customed to I suppose
12:37:04  <Alberth> some more detail would be nice imho, now you can only see the overview
12:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the point is, if you use the windows screenshot function, you "spoil" the 8bpp window content with the 32bpp window frame, which makes all the picture 32bpp and might make it an unnecessarily big file
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12:38:24  <insulfrog> the current shots ment to be a general overview anyway, I was going to post some more detailed shots later
12:38:58  <insulfrog> because the areas are zoomed out
12:40:26  <insulfrog> I havn't noticed the detail changes anyway between the actual OTTD and the screenies
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12:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> screenshot 2 is kinda nice ;)
12:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i like the nonstandard-spaghetti-ness ;)
12:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not the usual "flat everything first" approach
12:45:35  <Alberth> insulfrog: I wouldn't have bothered for screens 6 and 9 probably
12:45:45  <Alberth> yeah, 2 looks promising
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12:49:14  <insulfrog> ty
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12:55:47  <insulfrog> I was hoping to do more where screen 6 is but when the game went to the 'score screen' and went to 2051, I forgot all about that way so I just made a 'quick fix' just to say something is there :p .
12:57:23  <insulfrog> also I don't want people saying "what's beyond that junction on the main line" a million times if you know what I mean :p
12:58:27  <Alberth> :)
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13:30:01  <insulfrog> drat, I must sort out an anoying jam before I expand my network
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13:30:32  <Accatyyc> ah those
13:30:50  <Accatyyc> i broke my record today! 16 trains on the same network xD started playing last week
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13:31:07  <Accatyyc> learning those signals was pretty tedious in the start
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13:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you're lucky you have the internet to explain stuff... i had to learn signals from the demo version with no manual...
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13:55:50  <De_Ghosty> learn signal from ppl
13:55:52  <De_Ghosty> easier
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14:07:15  * insulfrog is thinking how he can fix the traffic problem
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14:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> sell all vehicles, solves all traffic problems
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14:26:54  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17785 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: autoreplace window uses pure nested widgets.
14:29:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17786 /trunk/src/ (20 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#3265]: graphical glitches (matrices/scrollbars with wrong 'size') upon reiniting windows
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14:39:48  <andythenorth> afternoon
14:39:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17787 /trunk/src/ (music/allegro_m.cpp sound/allegro_s.cpp video/allegro_v.cpp): -Codechange: be a bit more verbose about while allegro failed with some actions.
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14:47:24  <Pikkaa> hi andy
14:48:38  <andythenorth> hi pikka
14:48:46  <andythenorth> hey that wasn't autocomplete!
14:48:50  <andythenorth> silly macintosh
14:49:26  <andythenorth> You people have been good, so you get a log raft
14:49:27  <andythenorth>
14:49:37  <andythenorth> "Lowest cost per ton of any vehicle"
14:49:44  <andythenorth> ^^ that's pretty exciting I bet
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14:50:44  * Alberth is tempted to click on the picture for more information :)
14:51:04  <Alberth> it looks very pretty
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14:58:23  <andythenorth_> frosch123: <George>	Looks like not only me became interested in FS1862, so I decided to ask
14:58:23  <andythenorth_> 07:31	<frosch123>	hmm, i had a patch for that about 1.5 years ago. was it never committed?
14:58:37  <andythenorth_> So what's the thinking on that?
14:58:59  <andythenorth_> Because I'm about to abuse cb 37 to set text strings on about 60 industries
14:59:13  <andythenorth_> which will work fine, but is less funny if it's wasted work :)
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15:07:00  <frosch123> if it wouldn't segfault all the time, i would give you a diff for testing
15:07:19  <Accatyyc> question about translations... can I remove the {P "" s} tag if no plural exists in my language on the word in question? or just change it to {P "" ""}?
15:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Accatyyc: just remove the entire {}
15:07:39  <frosch123> just remove it
15:07:46  <Accatyyc> thanks
15:09:06  <andythenorth_> frosch123: who minds a segfault :)
15:09:13  <andythenorth_> tbh I am quite happy with the hack route
15:09:21  <andythenorth_> I think there are probably bigger fish to fry no?
15:10:03  <andythenorth_> got to go, back later...
15:10:11  <frosch123> no idea, what you actually did :)
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15:15:12  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17788 /trunk/src/ (music/null_m.h sound/allegro_s.h sound/null_s.h): -Fix [FS#3268] (r16702): don't fail hard when no soundcard could be detected; just fall back on the null-driver
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15:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> something's wrong with my engine :(
15:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it only works when i turn the screw to catenary mode... :(
15:39:24  <Pikkaa> what have you done, eddi?
15:40:44  <Accatyyc> wonder if people are gonna freak out if i change a major translation... the person before me translated "Buy" to "Build". thinking of changing it as it should be
15:40:55  <frosch123> since when do model railway with catenary exist?
15:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> they always did
15:41:41  <frosch123> Accatyyc: "build" was only recently changed to "buy" in english
15:41:59  <Accatyyc> okay, they were validated though
15:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid some contact is broken somewhere...
15:42:02  <Accatyyc> guess i'll change them
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15:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't have any catenary...
15:55:28  <insulfrog> bbl
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16:19:42  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so at least two soldering contacts seem to be broken... i've done a very provisorial repair now, leaving two wheels unconnected...
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16:28:05  <andythenorth_> frosch123: no idea, what you actually did
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16:28:57  <frosch123> is that a quote or an answer? :p
16:29:00  <andythenorth_> (quote)
16:29:11  <andythenorth_> I just used cb 37 in the way it was intended...except...
16:29:30  <andythenorth_> instead of a text for a cargo subtype I set a text for '(max 200)'
16:29:44  <andythenorth_> I think it works, it's just not the documented use for cb37
16:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you should use "<nick>" when you quote and nick:
16:30:02  <Eddi|zuHause> when you answer
16:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid confusion
16:30:20  <andythenorth_> hey I just learnt something
16:30:26  <frosch123> you should check for the text being displayed in the industry view, i.e. neither in fund industry gui or industry list. then it should be fine
16:30:48  <andythenorth_> frosch123: yep I do both of these things
16:31:11  <andythenorth_> tbh, I find setting a text this way much simpler than using a text stack
16:31:17  <frosch123> george was about the "200". i.e. is it always 200 or can it increase or decrease?
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16:31:41  <andythenorth_> The 200 could change.  It doesn't in my current plan, but I haven't tested enough yet, and users are requesting it
16:31:43  <andythenorth_> ...
16:32:36  <andythenorth_> If the 200 changes, I just use a different string...
16:32:39  <frosch123> well, if the 200 changes, you can either add text for all possible values, or you could use the stack to insert a value from a register
16:32:50  <frosch123> if you only have "200" there is no point in using the stack
16:33:17  <andythenorth_> If I make the limit dynamic, there's so much other code to change, I should probably use a register
16:33:28  <andythenorth_> but I'm probably not going to bother
16:34:00  <andythenorth_> what would be interesting is having stockpiles limits 'built in' :)
16:34:22  <andythenorth_> to create the current version means varaction 2 chains for both industry and *all* industry tiles
16:34:23  <frosch123> there is a buildin limit of 65535 :p
16:34:30  <andythenorth_> He he :P
16:35:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "builtin" would have some advantages, e.g. the AI could query them...
16:35:39  <andythenorth_> I would also like a pony
16:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> zomg, ponies!
16:36:03  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: then you would also need to add how fast the cargo is processed, and ....
16:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, and the newgrf only enables that behaviour and sets the parameters...
16:37:26  *** George3 [~George@] has joined #openttd
16:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> reduces the "code" part of newgrfs, and focuses on the "data" part...
16:37:38  <frosch123> ... and whether cargo is only processed if certain amounts of multipe cargos are available and ...
16:38:17  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: but that is the essential part of newgrf. abstract stuff which is only limited by the imagination of the newgrf coder.
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16:38:55  <George3> frosch123: It is different for every industry for every production level
16:39:14  <frosch123> no richk-like stuff which supports everything he could think of in 5 minutes, but nothing more without trashing it all
16:39:38  <frosch123> George3: there is a new diff in the fs task
16:40:01  <George3> I see, but I need executable to test :(
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16:40:18  <frosch123> wait 10 minutes :p
16:40:24  <George> Ok
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16:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess he couldn
16:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 't wait 10 minutes :p
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17:15:46  <andythenorth_> ah, a problem
17:16:00  <andythenorth_> FIRS oil platform accepts passengers, because we all like that, right?
17:16:18  <andythenorth_> but I am using the production callback, so passengers get 'processed' :)
17:16:35  <andythenorth_> I might be able work around it with the production callback, but it's kind of weird
17:18:54  <sawtooth> Just name the oil platform "Ellis"
17:19:24  <frosch123> andythenorth_: just do not add passenger to the list of accepted cargos of the industry, but only to the acceptance of industry tiles
17:19:37  <andythenorth_> kerching
17:19:39  <andythenorth_> good idea
17:19:57  <frosch123> that is how the default oil rig does it :p
17:20:11  <andythenorth_> can industry tiles produce cargo without it being a 'produced' cargo at the industry
17:20:21  <andythenorth_> ?
17:20:29  <frosch123> no
17:20:35  <andythenorth_> ok
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17:21:57  <andythenorth_> oh well
17:22:03  <andythenorth_> I had an idea there, but never mind
17:22:34  <andythenorth_> players seem to like industries that accept / produce passengers, but I'm not wasting industry cargo slots on it :)
17:22:41  <andythenorth_> (except for the oil platform!)
17:27:13  <PeterT> @seen Celestar
17:27:13  <DorpsGek> PeterT: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 25 weeks, 3 days, 9 hours, 28 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Celestar> morning
17:27:23  <PeterT> is he still developing CargodEst
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17:31:31  * andythenorth_ so what cargo acceptance do we get at an industry with six tiles each with 1/8 acceptance?
17:31:35  <andythenorth_> hmm hmm?
17:31:45  * andythenorth_ points fingers at FooBar :D
17:32:54  * andythenorth_ or maybe points finger at seld
17:32:57  <andythenorth_> self *
17:33:29  <andythenorth_> oops
17:33:33  <andythenorth_> embarassed
17:33:47  <Pikka> 6/8 if the station catchment covers the whole industry, andy? :P
17:34:30  <andythenorth_> my bad
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17:34:40  <andythenorth_> I just learnt how cb 2B works :)
17:34:46  <andythenorth_> I was wrong before
17:34:56  <andythenorth_> now to change all that code I copied and pasted earlier...
17:36:20  <Pikka> that's always fun :)
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17:45:31  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r17789 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
17:45:31  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: basque - 79 changes by Thadah
17:45:31  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: greek - 11 changes by fumantsu
17:45:31  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 78 changes by Utvik
17:45:32  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by Utvik
17:45:32  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: swedish - 233 changes by accatyyc
17:53:19  <Accatyyc> already? hm. will these come with the next nightly or do they update ingame?
17:54:26  <Rubidium> they'll come with the next nightly
17:54:39  <Rubidium> which will be done in roughly 1 hour
17:55:06  <PeterT> or you can manually download and compile via svn
17:56:52  <Accatyyc> okay sweet
17:58:00  <Accatyyc> yeah, i take it only the devs can commit to svn.. but what do you do if you play around with the code and fix something that could be of use in the public revisions?
17:58:47  <sawtooth> then you make a patch
18:00:37  <Chruker> and post it to ...
18:00:46  <SmatZ> and devs commit it :-p
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18:06:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Accatyyc: if you feel you have a change worth commiting, make a patch and put that on then a dev can review it, and if it is not rejected, it will sooner or later end up being commited
18:06:26  <Accatyyc> okay :)
18:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Accatyyc: before you do that, read the wiki about coding style, because that is the first criterium that will cause a rejection
18:07:53  <Accatyyc> no worries
18:08:03  <Accatyyc> nothing like merging unformatted code ..
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18:19:00  <andythenorth> FIRS Oil Platform seems to work using method suggested by frosch123
18:19:15  <andythenorth> guess testing will show if I've got it right :)
18:20:22  <frosch123> but you cannot implement stockpile limits for passengers that way :p
18:21:04  <andythenorth> That's ok, I'm only using limits for cargos that boost production
18:21:18  <andythenorth> Passengers won't boost production for Oil Platform
18:21:27  <andythenorth> I'm just including them because it's kind of traditional :)
18:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> omg... comedy central is broadcasting jeff dunham...
18:21:53  <Eddi|zuHause> DUBBED IN GERMAN!
18:23:14  <b_jonas> andythenorth: oil platforms also have a built in heliport which would look strange without passengers
18:23:40  <b_jonas> though I can't really see why anyone would actually want to use that heliport
18:24:52  <b_jonas> I think the passengers in industries were more important in the original ttd because of the many train heads that carry passengers and can't be refitted
18:24:58  <frosch123> b_jonas: until 2050 the oil production reduces to 4 tons per month, and it needs to be transported as valuables to banks via helicopters
18:25:01  <Chruker> SOme people like helicopters
18:25:04  <b_jonas> especially if you full load
18:25:13  <b_jonas> Chruker: sure, but from an oil platform?
18:25:26  <b_jonas> frosch123: oh, I see
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18:26:06  <andythenorth> b_jonas: helicopters are....realistic :)
18:26:12  <break19> Every game I play with oil platforms/derricks,