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Log for #openttd on 14th November 2009:
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00:25:58  <fjb> In C you can define an enumeration as a type. What size has a variable of that type?
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00:27:14  <Rubidium> that is undefined
00:27:44  <Rubidium> although all values of the enum will fit in the type it chooses
00:28:43  <glx> that's why we define XXXByte when we want to store XXX enum value
00:29:20  <fjb> I hope that it will fit. :-)
00:29:54  <fjb> Defining a type gives a strong hit what enumeration should be used (was my thinking).
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00:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it urges me to reply this "dpaanlka", but deep down the phrase "don't feed the troll" is trying to keep me back
00:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like angel and devil on my shoulder...
00:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> [in the mac os thread]
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00:52:40  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: same here...
00:53:02  <Rubidium> he just decreased the bug-tolerance-to-keep-the-osx-compiler-running though
00:53:46  <Rubidium> and I so want to reply: "But thousands of people kill others, should I? Thousands of people kill themselves, should I?"
00:54:21  <Eddi|zuHause> he says "many professionals [...] buy computers to do more important stuff first", yet he suggests that you buy a mac solely for openttd (since you already have a computer for everything else)
00:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> feel free to use that thought in your post ;)
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00:56:59  <fjb> Hm, how do I do the XXXByte emum thing in C? Just naming the types that way, or is there a better way with typedefs?
00:57:27  <MyCatVerbs> Eddi|zuHause: *blinkblink*
00:57:32  <MyCatVerbs> Surely that's backwards.
00:57:52  <Rubidium> fjb: you don't, but then C doesn't care about types so just enum { FOO }; typedef byte Foo;
00:57:55  <SmatZ> fjb: #include <stdint.h> ?
00:58:39  <Rubidium> SmatZ: XXXByte as in OwnerByte
00:59:20  <fjb> I hoped for something more "binding" the variable to the enum.
00:59:22  <SmatZ> ah, ok :) I
00:59:54  <MyCatVerbs> Eddi|zuHause: Personally I think of OS X machines as boring ordinary business computers. Simply because Macs break down so rarely that they're quite cheap to run a business with. :P
01:00:05  <MyCatVerbs> Would never dream of running anything fun on one. :)
01:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> why tell me?
01:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i probably care several orders of magnitude less for os x than Rubidium ;)
01:02:01  <Rubidium> MyCatVerbs: say that to that teacher at high school whom's Mac I crashed by looking at all the screensavers it had, only way to recover from the crash was pulling the power plug and battery because the on/off buttons didn't work either. Now that's what I call seriously crashed. I never had it on any other computer where I had to pull the plug and battery because of a crash. The on/off button always worked.
01:02:44  <MyCatVerbs> Rubidium: meh, sounds like that was years ago.
01:03:04  <MyCatVerbs> The office where I work is full of 'em, and it's exceedingly rare that I hear anybody swearing at theirs.
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01:06:35  <MyCatVerbs> Oh, except for me.
01:06:56  <MyCatVerbs> But that's because I hate every last microscopic detail of their fucking UI.
01:07:45  <MyCatVerbs> The individual pixels of OS X's display output disgust me, even in isolation. But at least it doesn't break much. ;)
01:10:17  <fjb> typedef TinyEnumT<Owner> OwnerByte; is nice, but only works in C++.
01:10:19  <Rubidium> guess I'm doing something wrong; running Debian SID (unstable) for 6 years, no reinstalls (except when I got a new laptop: 32 bits->64 bits), never had a problem in contrast to my brother who has reinstalled his mac laptop several times, had loads of problems with the backlight inverter
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05:14:17  <pw-> http://i.imgur.com/nAqPa.jpg
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08:44:27  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18067 /trunk/src/ (vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui_base.h): -Codechange: Eliminate a constant representing a widget top edge in vehicle windows.
08:50:10  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18068 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui_base.h: -Cleanup: Remove obsolete BaseVehicleListWindow(const WindowDesc *desc, WindowNumber window_number) constructor.
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09:59:04  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18069 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Initialize window flags at the same tme as the other fields instead of afterwards.
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10:05:09  <Terkhen> hello
10:09:02  <Alberth> hello
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10:43:45  <andythenorth> morning
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11:11:57  <Ruudjah> @seen luukland
11:11:57  <DorpsGek> Ruudjah: luukland was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 17 hours, 1 minute, and 48 seconds ago: <Luukland> theM? does something force you to say theM?
11:12:16  <Ruudjah> @seen muxy
11:12:16  <DorpsGek> Ruudjah: muxy was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 13 hours, 33 minutes, and 41 seconds ago: <Muxy> BUt has been identified as an irish fake
11:12:37  * Muxy is in goulp as usual
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11:50:38  <planetmaker> is iconv used only on OSX or can it be utilized by linux / windows, too?
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11:53:07  <Rubidium> it's basically required for OSX, it can be used on Linux (Gentoo enables it IIRC) and Windows doesn't need nor use it
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11:57:46  <planetmaker> hm, ok. As my linux didn't use it either "checking iconv... not OSX, skipping" I got the impression it might be OSX only - which then could be mentioned when calling ./configure --help
11:58:08  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18070 /trunk/src/debug.h: -Fix: some possible unwanted side effects if using some sorts of boolean expressions in DEBUG
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12:00:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's generally unneeded for Linux; Gentoo wants to enable it for some reason (people chosing some strange encoding for their file names). As such it's disabled by default for non OSX, but with --with-iconv you can enable it
12:02:09  <planetmaker> ok, so it's not "OSX only" but maybe "required for OSX"?
12:05:11  <Rubidium> required for OSX yes, needed for Linux generally no, so if not OSX we skip it *unless* someone specifically says he wants to compile with iconv
12:08:34  <planetmaker> yes, I understood that. I just thought it might be nice to add that to the output of ./configure --help :-) - in a concise and short way
12:13:26  <Rubidium> that being 'more or less requires for OS X, optional for the rest'?
12:13:55  <Rubidium> that's what configure does, not what the configure 'option' does
12:16:08  <planetmaker> well. But it states for a range of options ("<whatever OS> only")
12:16:40  <Rubidium> yes, but --with-iconv is not specific for a single OS
12:18:18  <planetmaker> yes, but it's not sensible to de-activate it on OSX :-)
12:18:41  <Rubidium> neither is deactivating zlib
12:19:10  <planetmaker> well. That's not sensible for any OS
12:19:21  <planetmaker> Nor is actually png IMO
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12:50:53  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18071 /trunk/src/ (46 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: remove the need for {SKIP} in the autoreplace window + strings
12:56:03  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18072 /trunk/src/ (45 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: remove the need for {SKIP} (and a string) from the order window
13:11:54  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18073 /trunk/src/lang/ (52 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove some more unneeded skips
13:22:46  <petern> hmm, portal is a bit slow in wine :(
13:24:13  <petern> and can't always see through a portal
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13:30:14  <Peping> hey there.. How can I make openTTD run on a PC with Win98 without a soundcard?
13:31:59  <petern> "just run it"
13:33:05  <Peping> petern: it says "couldn't find a valid soundcard" or something like that.. Which is logical, beacause there isn't one
13:34:08  <petern> you can put 'sounddriver = "null"' in the [misc] section of openttd.cfg
13:34:24  <Peping> thanks ;)
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15:26:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r18074 /trunk/src/os/macosx/macos.mm: -Fix [FS#3314]: [OSX] Don't link clipboard support twice when building without Cocoa.
15:29:09  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: smatz * r18075 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Codechange: let ScreenshotHandlerProc() accept 'name' as 'const char \*'
15:31:18  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: smatz * r18076 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Codechange: rename MakeBmpImage() to MakeBMPImage()
15:34:33  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r18077 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Make the livery window use pure nested widgets.
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15:37:47  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18078 /trunk/src/ (56 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: remove some duplicate (non translatable) strings
15:43:20  <Paul2> hi guys
15:44:03  <Paul2> if I have an openttd dedicated headless server, how can I send commands to it from the server? I tried something like telnet localhost:3979 and I can't do it. I can't work out how to send commands to the screen session with it in either
15:45:21  <pw-> http://wiki.openttd.org/Dedicated_server
15:45:22  <pw-> ?
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15:45:47  <Rubidium> I think he's better of reading the manual of screen
15:45:57  <Xaroth> I agree with Rubidium
15:46:51  <planetmaker> Paul2: besides reading the manual of screen: the open session behaves like the console
15:46:55  <Paul2> I tried screen -X <cmd>
15:47:06  <Paul2> ah ok cool so thats the best way to go yeah?
15:47:31  <planetmaker> it is a way. "best" depends on what you want and expect :-)
15:48:19  <Xaroth> alias openttd_server='screen -U -S openttd_server -d -RR'
15:48:23  <Paul2> well. I want to be able to have the server running (in screen would be ideal, but whatever). And be able to send commands to it, through telnet, connecting to screen, whatever from something like a bash script
15:48:36  <Xaroth> that way if you type openttd_server you create, or reconnect to a screen with that name
15:48:43  <Xaroth> so you can get back to your console session
15:49:06  <Paul2> I can use screen and everything fine. I'm happy with that
15:49:06  <planetmaker> screen should be able to faciliate that, yes
15:49:15  <Paul2> It's just getting something like a bash script to talk to it
15:49:19  <Paul2> ok cool
15:49:24  <Xaroth> why telnet, rather than plain good ol putty? :o
15:49:37  <planetmaker> but don't use telnet, use ssh ;-)
15:49:39  <Paul2> from the machine itself...
15:49:45  <Paul2> I use ssh to the server from my client
15:49:50  <Xaroth> yeh
15:49:54  <Xaroth> why not just re-claim the screen?
15:50:02  <planetmaker> yup ^
15:50:02  <Paul2> I just mean from the dedicatated to the server
15:50:12  <Paul2> well yes, but that's a pita in bach scripts isnt it?
15:50:18  <Xaroth> Paul2: as i said, why not re-claim the screen :P
15:50:19  <planetmaker> I usually do ssh server
15:50:20  <Xaroth> no it's not
15:50:21  <planetmaker> screen -x
15:50:21  <Xaroth> check the alias
15:50:25  <Xaroth> it re-attaches :)
15:50:29  <Xaroth> alias openttd_server='screen -U -S openttd_server -d -RR'
15:50:30  <planetmaker> and then I tab to the screen the server runs in
15:50:43  <Paul2> yes but does it work from bach scripts?
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15:50:50  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: smatz * r18079 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Codechange: allow overwriting of screenshots with user-supplied filenames
15:50:58  <planetmaker> no, that's for interactive.
15:50:58  <Xaroth> eh?
15:51:06  <Xaroth> screen is interactive :P
15:51:08  <planetmaker> But I could use it for batch, I guess, too.
15:51:17  <Paul2> exactly...I can attach to screen as myself easily. I don't have a problem using screen.
15:51:35  <planetmaker> use autopilot ;-)
15:51:39  <Paul2> I just want a script on the server that would do (for example say 'hi everyone on the server')
15:51:43  <Paul2> what's autopilot?
15:51:46  <Xaroth> use autopilot :)
15:52:10  <planetmaker> or rather ap+ or maybe even avignon, though I'd wait with the latter a bit till it's better tested
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15:52:33  <planetmaker> it's the bot which allows us to command our servers via IRC
15:52:47  <planetmaker> a kind of wrapper script which runs openttd. Written in tcl
15:52:48  <Paul2> ah that's just what I want
15:52:52  <Paul2> ah ok cool
15:53:47  <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/autopilot
15:54:07  <Paul2> cheers
15:55:13  <Paul2> autopilot is just what i wanted :)
15:55:48  <planetmaker> good :-)
15:57:11  <glx> rcon works too
15:57:24  <planetmaker> of course :-)
15:57:36  <planetmaker> but issuing greetings via rcon is... tedious ;-)
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15:58:40  <Paul2> yes this looks ideal. brilliant. Can run it on same machine as dedicated server
15:59:18  <planetmaker> you actually have to, I think :-)
16:02:35  <Paul2> excellente.
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16:11:33  <Paul2> hmmm Maybe we'll rip some of that and add it into our current bot...
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17:47:18  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18080 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: add some const to the smallmap
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18:33:20  <Luukland> Guys what is the size of a openttd tile?
18:33:27  <Luukland> 64x48?
18:33:32  <Luukland> or 64x48 px?
18:33:35  <Luukland> *32
18:40:12  <Rubidium> 16x16
18:41:03  <Luukland> ok thx
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18:45:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r18081 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: catalan - 9 changes by arnau
18:45:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 9 changes by josesun
18:45:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: polish - 103 changes by silver_777
18:45:47  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 changes by Tucalipe
18:45:47  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: swedish - 13 changes by markisen
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19:29:58  <nicfer2> hi
19:31:17  <nicfer2> should the 'singleplayer' mode be replaced by a local self-connected server?
19:32:06  <SpComb> should? Could? Would?
19:32:35  <nicfer2> which one expresses optionallity?
19:33:12  <Alberth> why would you want to run the same game twice at a single machine?
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19:36:06  <De_Ghosty> because he can
19:38:45  <SmatZ> [20:31:13] <nicfer2> should the 'singleplayer' mode be replaced by a local self-connected server? <== no
19:39:03  <SmatZ> some game aspects are specific to single player
19:39:17  <SmatZ> (cheats, some game settings, AI management...)
19:39:41  <SmatZ> also, it would no longer work on systems without network support
19:39:58  <Rhamphoryncus> nicfer2: that'd only make sense if you could remove significant amounts of work from the client, leaving it only on the server.  I'm not too familiar with how networking works in openttd, but I don't believe that's the case
19:40:02  <SmatZ> (+little higher latency, little lower performance...)
19:40:16  <SmatZ> yeah, everything would be done twice
19:40:20  <SmatZ> (game state changes)
19:40:27  <SmatZ> so in fact, halving performance
19:40:55  <nicfer2> hmmm, is 127.0.0.1 available even without network cards?
19:41:09  <SmatZ> on, say, DOS?
19:41:29  <nicfer2> is OTTD available for DOS?
19:41:37  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah.  My impression is that openttd networks by using exact copies of the game on every node.  All you need to do is channel inputs through a common server
19:41:42  <pw--> http://gamesthirstarticles.blogspot.com/2009/11/teen-goes-mad-after-playing-mw2-for.html
19:42:14  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: correct afaik
19:42:33  <SmatZ> nicfer2: YES
19:43:14  <Alberth> nicfer2: eg http://binaries.openttd.org/releases/0.7.3/openttd-0.7.3-windows-win9x.zip
19:43:36  <Rhamphoryncus> Thus why Floating Point Sucks(TM(TM)
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19:45:58  <nicfer1> my adsl line is having issues
19:46:22  <Muxy> bad adsl line, change adsl line
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20:01:29  <nicfer1> must be something on my provider's line, the filters and modem are new, but the external cables are really old
20:02:19  <nicfer1> specially since my operator ('Telefonica de Argentina') only changes their lines when something stops working
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20:05:53  * Alberth hands nicfer1 a main-power to phone-line conversion cable.
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20:23:27  <TrueBrain> lol ... age of coper lines .. didn't know that was a factor for line stability :)
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20:34:59  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18082 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make it visually easier to see where the different legenda 'tables' are split + some typos
20:44:25  <fonsinchen> If a newgrf house provides a callback for the accepted cargos and their acceptance values it doesn't need to state 'normal' acceptance. Am I right?
20:45:56  <fonsinchen> So if I want to find out the global acceptance value of some cargo I have to query each and every single house by their newgrf callback.
20:46:02  * fonsinchen cries
20:49:49  <Rubidium> basically yes
20:52:02  <Rubidium> I advice to use AddAcceptedCargo/GetAcceptanceAroundTiles though
20:54:44  <fonsinchen> Well, my plan was using _building_counts and HouseSpec::acceptance to quickly add up the acceptance, but that won't work. And it's the same with industries. I guess I need a tile loop and do AddAcceptedCargo for each tile. Unfortunately that will take a lot of CPU cycles.
20:56:37  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18083 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make the small map GUI nested.
20:56:47  <Alberth> maybe only until you have collected 8/8 acceptance ?
20:58:15  <Rubidium> 4! :)
20:59:10  <fonsinchen> No, I want the exact global acceptance. This is for supply scaling. The stations' ratings will be adjusted by the ration between the acceptance reachable in a linkgraph component and the global acceptance.
20:59:31  <fonsinchen> This means stations with fewer reachable destinations will get less cargo.
20:59:55  <Rubidium> that sounds very simutransy
21:00:29  <fonsinchen> It's a commonly requested feature for cargodist and part of my next project: http://wiki.openttd.org/Alternate_economy
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21:01:32  <fonsinchen> Is "simutransy" a bad or a good attribute?
21:01:55  <Rubidium> but... what when I build 5 overlapping stations in 1 town that, if you sum it, get more than the total acceptance of passengers in the map (think of four towns)?
21:03:17  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: don't know, but adding and adding features to a patch till it dies under its own weight is something you must watch out for
21:03:33  <Rubidium> it's basically the reason why most patch packs die
21:03:48  <fonsinchen> It's not a single patch. Every feature gets its own branch and can be included or omitted on its own
21:05:04  <fonsinchen> The overlapping stations are an interesting problem. I have to mark the areas I have added somehow when counting the acceptance in a component.
21:06:21  <fonsinchen> You can look at the branch topology in http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist . I have recently updated it.
21:06:37  <Rubidium> anyhow, I think you'll quickly end up with something O(#of stations**2 * station spread**2)
21:07:30  <fonsinchen> Yes, I'm getting that impression, too. I have to simplify it somehow.
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21:09:27  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: looks like you need at least the right half of that graph to have anything nearly useful (everything except smallmap)
21:10:39  <fonsinchen> you can omit some things: texteff and warning sign.
21:11:20  <fonsinchen> But yes, the rest is mandatory. However, that's really the core functionality of cargodist. It can't be reduced any further.
21:11:43  <fonsinchen> I mean, I had a version without multimap and reservation, but that was unbearably slow.
21:12:42  <fonsinchen> And cargomap reverted most of it anyway, so I dropped it.
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21:19:58  <fonsinchen> Oh, r18083 looks like I'll have some fun merging it into smallmap-zoom-in/out/stats ...
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21:26:13  <Rhamphoryncus> fonsinchen: you're the cargodist author?  I'm having lots of fun with it :)
21:26:46  <fonsinchen> yes, I am. It's nice to hear that.
21:30:07  <Rhamphoryncus> There's an old post arguing that in reality people have fixed destinations, they don't change them based on the transportation available?  Well it's wrong.  There's studies on highway design that show people really do drive more when you remove the congestion from a road
21:31:11  <Rhamphoryncus> Just some interesting trivia for you :)
21:34:56  <fonsinchen> well, maybe, but I'm not modelling reality. However, the great numbers of passengers at certain stations are a problem for playability. Reducing the numbers while the network is small and then slowly raising them when it grows helps the player to get used to the numbers and build the necessary infrastructure.
21:36:38  <Rhamphoryncus> I know you're not modelling reality, my point was that it's the other way around.  Reality turns out to reflect your model
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21:40:32  <fonsinchen> I might use the TileLoop and some moving average to calculate the acceptance numbers. Like that they're not as accurate, but the calculation can be done in a reasonable time.
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22:33:25  <andythenorth> did hell freeze over?  Neko is talking good sense on the forums
22:33:57  <andythenorth> Also, more ships released by moi  :O
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22:46:16  <fjb> Unbelievable.
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22:51:30  <fjb> Nice ships.
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22:53:09  <Sacro> that's what she said
22:53:53  <Rhamphoryncus> This makes me feel bad about every game I've played to date: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=119043
22:56:05  <Lakie> You should take a look at someone like JGR or RobC's maps...
22:58:23  <petern> oh dear
22:58:29  <petern> i've written some c# that uses goto
22:58:35  <Lakie> :o
22:59:01  <Lakie> Depends on the code and layout of various loops and such, sometimes goto is a valid option.
22:59:03  <Rhamphoryncus> petern: common cleanup block?
22:59:29  <Lakie> Besides things like for, while, if, switch, break all do the same but just hide it...
22:59:35  <petern> no... and c# has exceptions
23:01:52  <Rhamphoryncus> I'll get the torches and pitchforks
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23:10:40  * petern refactors it
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23:16:20  * Rubidium wonders how complex a (TTD) game you can make without gotos
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23:40:17  <Terkhen> good night
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23:49:52  <welshdragon> can i open an TTDPatch Scenario in OpenTTD?
23:50:49  <Sacro> no
23:50:50  <Sacro> you
23:51:02  <welshdragon> ?
23:51:51  <_ln> what a great answer :D
23:58:00  <Sacro> oh yes
23:58:08  <Sacro> i'm a great answertarian
23:58:15  <fjb> Oh no!

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