Log for #openttd on 1st December 2009:
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00:00:04  <PeterT> 0.7.4, wooohooo
00:00:14  <PeterT> bug fixes and ai fixes!
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00:02:01  <Chrill> WOO
00:02:16  <PeterT> </sarcasm>
00:02:28  <Chrill> How high has the 3rd number gone as highest? :p
00:02:32  <Chrill> I have some vague memory of 0.4.7
00:03:00  <Rubidium> 8?
00:03:09  <Chrill> ooh
00:04:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18355 /tags/0.7.4/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 0.7.4
00:04:27  <PeterT> Here we are
00:05:24  <PeterT> I'll update the wiki
00:06:03  <Rubidium> as in 0.4.8 was released too
00:06:07  <Chrill> I see
00:06:23  <Rubidium> see
00:06:50  <Chrill> ah, I see
00:06:59  <Chrill> for 0.8, the plan is full OpenGFX and OpenSFX, yeah?
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00:07:45  <Rubidium> I guess so; just need capable people
00:08:42  <Chrill> Wish I could contribtue :(
00:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the "problem" with 0.4.x is that it's not really representative, because 0.4.5 should rather have been 0.5.0
00:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there was no 0.4.1 to 0.4.4
00:11:28  <Chrill> oooh
00:11:33  <Chrill> so from 0.4.0 to 0.4.5?
00:11:42  <SmatZ> to
00:12:04  <SmatZ> then 0.4.5 ;)
00:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc there was a 0.3.6
00:12:38  <Chrill> there was
00:12:50  <Chrill> released 25th january 2005 :p
00:12:56  <Chrill> I think I got playing with OpenTTD at 0.4.6
00:13:05  <Chrill> or 0.4.7
00:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.4.6 was one of the worst releases ever
00:13:24  <Chrill> xD
00:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause> it had kind of a fatal bug :p
00:13:41  <Chrill> crash-on-save or something? xD
00:13:52  <Chrill> 0.4.7 was released after 4 days
00:13:53  <SmatZ> my first version was some 0.3.x, it was quite unstable... later I got 0.4.8, and I spend a lot of time with that one :)
00:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> no, not a crash, but "trains did not find their way out of a depot" or something
00:14:10  <Chrill> I've come to update a lot to every new stable release
00:14:19  <Chrill> running 0.7.3 at the moment
00:14:22  <Chrill> usually no nightlies
00:14:45  <Chrill> there aren't any LARGE differences between nightly and stable nowadays, are there? Downloaded a nightly and couldn't really spot anything
00:15:10  <SmatZ> hard to say
00:15:14  <SmatZ> what you call large
00:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a handful of small features
00:15:24  <SmatZ> there aren't LARGE differences between 0.2 and trunk...
00:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the largest change is more under-the-hood kind
00:15:39  <Chrill> I'd consider PBS signalling or new pathfinders large
00:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the GUI rewrite, and resulting RTL and large font support
00:16:39  <Chrill> RTL?
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00:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Right-To-Left languages
00:16:57  <Chrill> ah
00:17:03  <Chrill> Well yes, that is a large change indeed
00:17:19  <Chrill> I'm impressed with how OpenTTD has developed from the original TTD
00:17:24  <glx> it's included in GUI changes :)
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00:17:49  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18356 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Merge: changes to the changelogs etc. in the 0.7 branch
00:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> then there's smaller stuff like stopping in the middle of the platform
00:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> or parts of timetable management
00:18:15  <Rubidium> IPv6 support
00:18:16  <SmatZ> things marged as "feature" in commit message
00:19:03  <Rubidium> <- more thorough, though less up-to-date (300 revisions to be precise)
00:19:08  <SmatZ> of course, there are things like "much better crash log" and "crash log on non-windows platforms"...
00:19:23  <SmatZ> :-)
00:19:30  <glx> not useful for gamers ;)
00:19:36  <PeterT> I've updated the wiki:
00:19:43  <PeterT> You're welcome
00:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> all the potential larger things (cargodest, roadtypes, newgrf airports) kinda got delayed, i wouldn't expect any of these in 0.8
00:20:13  <Rubidium> or the non-autorail rail laying stuff act more like autorail
00:20:16  <SmatZ> thanks ;)
00:20:56  <Rubidium> but yes, it's a quite big assortment of small features/improvements
00:21:09  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: everything is possible :)
00:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yes, but possible != expected
00:21:37  <glx> but indeed I doubt one of them can be ready for 0.8
00:22:16  <glx> though maybe roadtypes is already done, but will reach trunk in 2 years ;)
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00:23:10  <Rubidium> Chrill: if you want to see differences: double the font sizes in the config file and select Arabic. Then compare 0.7 and trunk
00:23:37  <Chrill> Eddi|zuHause: the stop-in-middle-of-platform thing is something I really like, I must say
00:23:43  <glx> doubling font size is already a good test
00:23:48  <Chrill> yes, Rubidium, those were pointed out ;)
00:24:14  <Rubidium> Chrill: I know, but 'just' compare them :)
00:24:19  <glx> especially small non-TTD font
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00:28:25  <Chrill> oh, a question
00:28:30  <Chrill> I remember back in old nightlies
00:28:44  <Chrill> one could construct rail crossings over roads diagonally
00:28:50  <Chrill> why was this idea scrapped?
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00:28:59  <Rubidium> 1) miniin != nightlies
00:29:04  <Rubidium> 2) it wasn't finished
00:29:15  <Chrill> okay :)
00:29:47  <Rubidium> 3) the developer of said patch, one of the OpenTTD developers, never finished it when he was a 'real' dev
00:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> 4) the approach he used had unsolvable problems with two parallel diagonal rails
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00:35:02  * Rubidium wonders why so many people seem to have the imagination that anything in MiniIN or any later INs/patch packs has gone through any kind of real quality control
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00:41:58  * fjb thinks that people don't expect quality control.
00:43:03  <Rubidium> true, and for INs/patch packs they seldomly report bugs
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00:50:51  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18357 /extra/website/general/utils/ [Website] -Change: do not redirect Ubuntu users to the Debian package but to the generic Linux package that has ICU statically linked in. This should reduce problems for Ubuntu users to use OpenTTD.
00:51:15  <PeterT> ^Thanks for that :)
01:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... two days in a row now that i hit the forum backup...
01:02:59  <Rubidium> that's the 'time to go to bed'
01:03:30  *** Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.4 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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01:14:25  * Chrill updates to 0.7.4
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02:39:28  <Pikka> who broke the forums?
02:39:35  * Pikka slaps orudge
02:40:05  <Chrill> updates
02:40:24  <Pikka> yus
02:40:33  <Pikka> how rare
02:41:06  <Chrill> is good
02:41:14  <Chrill> forums will be faster and less heavy on servers
02:41:29  <Pikka> is don, is good
02:43:18  <orudge> well
02:43:22  <orudge> it'll probably not make that much difference
02:43:26  <orudge> but yes, updating
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06:31:08  <SineDeviance> hi all
06:31:53  <SineDeviance> i have a question. i have installed openttd 0.7.4 in crunchbang linux (built on ubuntu 9.04) and i have also used openttd on windows. i have noticed that the midi music doesn't sound the same as it does in windows?
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08:19:11  <Rubidium> SineDeviance: probably has to do with the way midi music is transformed into sound
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08:19:57  <muep> SineDeviance: midi music doesn't sound identical on different devices
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08:21:11  <muep> SineDeviance: the midi format includes just kind of notes, not a pre-caclulated sound signal
08:35:46  <SineDeviance> muep, so you're saying the soundfont is different?
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08:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what they are saying
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09:16:16  <bartavelle> hello
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17:35:54  <JFBelugas> hello
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18:07:51  <Zuu> Hi, is it a policy that functions that always return an object still should return pointers instead of references to the object? As a caller to the function I can only really count on it _always_ returning an object if it returs a reference. If it is a pointer, the implementation may change without getting a notice.
18:08:24  <Zuu> For example AIConfig::GetConfig always return a AIConfig, still it returns a pointer and not a reference.
18:09:04  <Zuu> Would a patch be accepted that change the return type to a reference? Or shall I make my code more complicated to handle the event that the function some time in future may return null?
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18:12:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18358 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Cleanup: More usage of EPV_CYCLES_(DARK|GLITTER)_WATER.
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18:20:22  * frosch123 has no idea. to me it looks like GetConfig is leaking, but maybe that is known
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18:23:24  <Zuu> Hmm, I have no idea if it is known, but indeed it looks like it leaks.
18:23:34  * Rubidium guesses it's legacy from coming from C
18:24:43  <Zuu> Still the AI config code was not written that long ago. But I guess it follows the existing code better to not use references.
18:25:26  <Zuu> to not return references*
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18:25:56  <Zuu> Just saw he actually uses references in the GetConfig code. :-)
18:27:22  <frosch123> ah, silly me. no, it does not leak
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18:28:15  <Zuu> Why is it not leaking when it returns a pointer to a new AIConfig?
18:28:42  <Rubidium> because the pointer is also assigned to[something]
18:28:42  <frosch123> because it is "*config = new ...", not "config = new"
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18:29:28  <Zuu> Oh, yea. That is true.
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18:30:13  <Zuu> Never used double pointers in that way.
18:31:32  <frosch123> do you prefer "AIConfig *&config;" ? :p
18:32:43  <Rubidium> now ponder what happens when AIConfig is an variable of integer type :)
18:34:41  <Zuu> *& becomes interesting.
18:35:09  <frosch123> yeah, it takes you years to learn, whether "*&" or "&*" is correct :p
18:35:37  <Zuu> Isn't *& a pointer to a reference?
18:36:00  <Rubidium> and &* is bit-and-ing with a dereferenced pointer
18:36:00  <frosch123> *& is a reference of a pointer, &* is invalid
18:36:41  <Zuu> Ok
18:37:21  * frosch123 was talking about declarations
18:37:32  <Zuu> I heavily use references as function arguments and returns when null is not accepted/returned, but that is just me. I'm surprised I still can stand the SDL-library :-)
18:45:25  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r18359 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt hungarian.txt traditional_chinese.txt):
18:45:25  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:25  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 changes by josesun
18:45:25  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: croatian - 114 changes by UnderwaterHesus
18:45:25  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: hungarian - 26 changes by IPG
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19:05:26  <tomfratelli> Hey
19:05:35  <tomfratelli> In the latest nightly, how do I found towns?
19:05:56  <frosch123> enable it in advanced settings, then hold the mouse on the townlist icon
19:06:12  <tomfratelli> Thank ye'
19:08:36  <Zuu> Nice, got CluelesPlus as my human player and now I fixed in my patch so you can no longer move up AIs to the player slot. :-)
19:09:00  <Zuu> I'm doomed to be Clueless. :-p
19:09:23  <Zuu> Too bad the game does not run the AI in the player slot :-(
19:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm tired of clicking away 200 messages about "this vehicle has -xyz profit last year"
19:11:09  <tomfratelli> I just started playing today.
19:11:17  <tomfratelli> So yeah.
19:11:50  <tomfratelli> The only thing I don't know how to do is build airplanes.
19:11:50  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: then disable it in advanced settings?
19:12:09  <frosch123> tomfratelli: click on the hangar of an airport
19:12:18  <tomfratelli> ok
19:12:33  <tomfratelli> Also: Can I build islands? in the middle of the sea?
19:12:45  <SmatZ> you can terraform inslands :-p
19:12:55  <SmatZ> -n
19:13:01  <tomfratelli> I have 59mill just sitting there and I want to build a private island and found a city on it
19:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, that's not the point... the point is, i can't find out which vehicles are actually unprofitable, and which vehicles are only unlucky transferrers...
19:13:25  <tomfratelli> Do I just use the landscaping tool?
19:13:32  <SmatZ> yes
19:13:43  <tomfratelli> ok
19:14:40  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, what do you usually do with unprofitable vehicles anyway?
19:15:17  <tomfratelli> Holy crap, 50k to raise one piece of land above sea level? Am I doing it wrong?
19:15:26  <tomfratelli> One SQUARE
19:15:36  <SmatZ> you're doing it right
19:16:00  <tomfratelli> Aight
19:16:15  <tomfratelli> What should I call my town on my private island?
19:16:49  <Eddi|zuHause> tomfratelli: have you an idea how crazily expensive that is for countries like the netherlands or japan to transform sea into land?
19:17:11  <frosch123> and if you want to fund a town, why do you care about 50k for terraforming? :p
19:17:25  <tomfratelli> Nope, but I prefer being a badass ruler of the world to realism
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19:18:29  <SmatZ> hello Alberth
19:18:33  <frosch123> reminds me, someone volunteers for reworking the cost system of water-related stuff? i.e. different base prices for clearing water, building canal, building locks, ....
19:18:42  <Alberth> hello
19:19:07  <tomfratelli> What costs are we looking at?
19:20:36  <tomfratelli> Is there any more complete gfx overhauls like OpenGFX?
19:20:52  <frosch123> "complete" :p
19:21:21  <tomfratelli> Well, as complete as OpenGFX?
19:21:31  <frosch123> no
19:21:53  <frosch123> but there are a lot specialised grfs
19:22:05  <frosch123> for landscape, for vehicles, for industries,...
19:22:24  <tomfratelli> aight
19:23:56  <Eddi|zuHause> some of these are "themed", like japanese, american, british, ...
19:26:22  <JFBelugas> badass ruleof the world to realism???  what the hell does that mean???
19:27:03  <tomfratelli> Just looked at Simutrans, is it better or worse than OpenTTD?
19:27:03  <JFBelugas> that you want to enforce the reality that you developped in your game?
19:27:33  <frosch123> JFBelugas: replace "to" with "over" and associate it to "prefer"
19:27:33  <JFBelugas> that you want to enforce realism of THE world in your game?
19:28:16  <tomfratelli> Is there an Open Source Rollecoaster Tycoon?
19:28:32  <JFBelugas> though so... another realism freak
19:28:43  <JFBelugas> tomfratelli, no freaking idea
19:29:09  <frosch123> [20:34] <JFBelugas> though so... another realism freak <- no, the reverse
19:29:39  <JFBelugas> ho... well... welcome aboard then!
19:29:41  <tomfratelli> I like a bit of realism, but If it stops me having fun it's too much.
19:29:53  <frosch123> JFBelugas: Eddi|zuHause was the realism-guy in the discussion
19:29:57  <tomfratelli> I like the freedom of being able to build little cities on my own private island.
19:30:01  <tomfratelli> Just because I can.
19:30:12  <tomfratelli> And not worry that the council won't let me.
19:30:34  <JFBelugas> i kind of forgiving to Eddi|zuHause, as he is not perfect but knows a lot and helps a lot
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19:31:16  <JFBelugas> tomfratelli, that's the way to go.  Consider it as a game and not as a simulator
19:32:51  <tomfratelli> Just tried simutrans, not good at all, runs terribly on a netbook even though it looks worse than OpenTTD, not as many options.
19:33:09  <tomfratelli> OpenTTD is so much better.
19:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a handful of things that simutrans does better than openttd
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19:35:15  <tomfratelli> It's probably because I tried OpenTTD first, then.
19:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that, and you judge it on the first impression only :p
19:37:34  <tomfratelli> True.
19:37:39  <Zuu> also simutrans has quite good performance on Linux, but the performance seams not as good in Windows.
19:37:56  <tomfratelli> Any exiting developements in the world of OpenTTD? Whats going to be in the next build?
19:38:04  <tomfratelli> People on the streets?
19:38:07  <tomfratelli> Cars?
19:38:16  <Zuu> tomfratelli: Get the last nightly and try it out yourself :-)
19:38:17  <tomfratelli> FIRST PERSON MODE?!
19:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have cars already
19:38:26  <tomfratelli> Got it, it's great.
19:38:39  <Zuu> Yea, and I even mocked up an AI that builds cars in the bigger towns. :-)
19:38:39  <tomfratelli> Founding Cities is my favourite new feature.
19:38:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "town car AI" with accompanying grf
19:38:54  <tomfratelli> Linkies?
19:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> in the download menu, probably.
19:39:14  <Alberth> argh, it is snowing in the forums
19:39:14  <Zuu> Indeed
19:39:34  <Zuu> tomfratelli:
19:39:56  <Zuu> But it is better to download the AI from the ingame system if it works for you.
19:40:20  <Zuu> Just notice that TownCars != StreetTraffic
19:40:30  <tomfratelli> Ok.
19:40:36  <tomfratelli> It replaces buses?
19:40:44  <Zuu> StreetTraffic is a fork of TownCars 3.
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19:41:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if you "enable multiple vehicle grfs" in the advanced options, it should not replace anything...
19:41:15  <tomfratelli> ok
19:41:58  <JFBelugas> Alberth, it's snowing in here too
19:42:20  * Zuu sits with Subsilver and has soo far not noticed any snow.
19:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, it's not snowing in the forum for me... might be a cache issue...
19:43:05  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i hate the snow theme... the font colour hurts...
19:44:37  <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: feature request: have an additional forum style that does not seasonally change, but shows the "temperate" style at all times
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19:56:22  <tomfratelli> Feature Request: Order Genocide on towns to greatly decrease the population in that area, costs beteen 5mill and 15 mill depending on the size of the town.
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19:56:47  <Rubidium> FR declined; see Objectives
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19:57:04  <tomfratelli> Objectives?
19:57:46  <Rubidium>
19:58:10  <tomfratelli> Goddommot
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19:58:23  <tomfratelli> Because 6 year olds play Transport Simulation games.
19:58:46  <thingwath> and by the way, that feature is already there, only it's not called genocide, but "magic bulldozer" in the cheat menu :) (what an euphemism)
19:58:59  <tomfratelli> Magic...Bulldozer?
19:59:04  <tomfratelli> Tell me more.
20:00:38  <Chrill> It's a cheat in the game
20:00:45  <Chrill> to remove industries and other undestroyables
20:01:15  <Chrill> you can simply bulldoze everything and anything
20:01:17  <thingwath> or to destroy whole cities at once, when you don't like their names, for example
20:01:21  <Chrill> yeah
20:01:22  <Chrill> .. :P
20:01:29  <Chrill> or you just change the name...?
20:02:00  <thingwath> also a solution, of course
20:02:08  <tomfratelli> Thats awesome.
20:02:23  <Chrill> destroying the town wont remove the town name, thingwath :P
20:02:28  <tomfratelli> Feature Request: Be able to upgrade the HQ (I'm tired of having a shack for HQ)
20:02:36  <Chrill> ...
20:02:41  <Chrill> say what?
20:03:16  <Chrill> I hope you know HQs have been upgraded automatically as your company grows since Original Transport Tycoon
20:03:32  <thingwath> well, after razing whole city to ground, you can rename it properly, and rebuild, as a new megapolis, with properly designed streets, and so on
20:03:36  <Zuu> An operator= would you place it at the bottom of the public part or just after the destructor?
20:04:14  <tomfratelli> Aight.
20:04:15  <Zuu> I see operators are not used a lot in OpenTTD, no operator= and a few others.
20:04:38  <tomfratelli> When I delete my lorry loading and bus stations, The name doesn't delete and just goes grey.
20:04:42  <SmatZ> they make code hard to read
20:04:56  <Chrill> tomfratelli, it goes away after a delay
20:05:02  <tomfratelli> ok
20:05:03  <Chrill> for example, if you're redoing the station
20:05:04  <Zuu> Sure, that is why I call the operator explicitly in my code that uses it.
20:05:06  <Chrill> and you first delete it
20:05:10  <Chrill> it cant just go boom disappear
20:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> tomfratelli: i think it takes one month to go away
20:05:22  <Zuu> Do you have a name convention eg. Assign that is used instead?
20:05:47  <tomfratelli> Feature Request: People on the street.
20:05:52  <Zuu> Oh, well I'm ready to publish the patch, so I just go for one solution and then you can judge if it is a total disaster or not. :-p
20:07:00  <Chrill> tomfratelli: never will happen
20:07:26  <tomfratelli> Why not, can't it just be an AI with buses replaced with people?
20:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't say never...
20:07:43  <Chrill> well, buses dont walk the side of the roads
20:07:47  <Chrill> then again, they could
20:07:47  <Eddi|zuHause> with roadtypes, there could be the possibility of animation frames
20:08:14  <Chrill> using buses as pedestrians with graphics misaligned on purpose is a BAD idea
20:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so you could simulate various stages of crowded roads
20:08:19  <Chrill> cus they will queue road vehicles up
20:08:32  <tomfratelli> Feature Request: Be able to control the cars with the arrow keys.
20:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause> tomfratelli: this is not sim city.
20:08:50  <Chrill> tomfratelli: Okay, Locomotion had that, but why'd you ever want to?
20:08:59  <Chrill> If you want to drive vehicles, get a game where.. you drive vehicles
20:09:00  <tomfratelli> Feature Request: OpenSimCity
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20:12:04  <tomfratelli> Feature Request: Hand Drawn grafixxxx
20:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> feature request: /ignore feature requests
20:12:38  <tomfratelli> kk m8
20:12:44  <SmatZ> Feature Request denied: make it yourself
20:13:06  <Chrill> somethign tells me most graphics are drawn by someone using their hand..
20:13:34  <Chrill> Feature request: +b tomfratelli
20:13:45  <tomfratelli> :cool:
20:14:02  <SmatZ> @ban tomfratelli 600
20:14:06  <SmatZ> ...
20:14:07  <Zuu> SmatZ: I've posted the patch on tt-forums, forum 33. IF you want to read it. (no obligation). I'm off to dormitory cleeling for a while. :-)
20:14:08  <tomfratelli> ffff-
20:14:17  <Zuu> cleaning*
20:14:20  *** mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by DorpsGek
20:14:21  <tomfratelli> What patch, Zuu?
20:14:23  *** mode/#openttd [+b tomfratelli!*@*] by SmatZ
20:14:23  *** tomfratelli was kicked from #openttd by SmatZ [User terminated!]
20:14:45  <Zuu> tomfratelli:
20:14:47  <LordAzamath> Feature request: Be happy!
20:14:51  <SmatZ> :)
20:14:53  <Zuu> hehe, now he can't reed my answer :-)
20:15:00  *** mode/#openttd [-b tomfratelli!*@*] by SmatZ
20:15:04  <Zuu> Too bad :-p
20:15:38  <JFBelugas> whhooo... SmatZ's power been revealed!
20:15:51  <JFBelugas> WAY TO GO !
20:16:05  <JFBelugas> Did not saw that'  had a kitkat break
20:16:21  <SmatZ> :)
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20:17:31  <Rubidium> SmatZ: /ignore is so much easier; doesn't require any authentication whatsoever
20:18:34  <SmatZ> Rubidium: yeah, but then other people have to listed (read: read) his language
20:18:49  <SmatZ> +				if (this->selected_slot > _settings_newgame.difficulty.max_no_competitors)
20:18:54  <SmatZ> Zuu: missing { } :)
20:20:13  <Chris_Booth> feature request (anyone who says that with a swear word in they should be banned for life)
20:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> strategical question: in UpdateLevelCrossing it has a check "/* train on crossing || train approaching crossing || reserved */" <-- you think it's possible to reduce that to only "reserved", and instead convert the other two to ensure they have a reservation?
20:21:42  <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: couldnt you just make if a train is within a cretain distance the crossing closes?
20:21:51  <Rubidium> guess it is, although I'm not sure what happens with e.g. crashes of trains
20:21:55  <Chris_Booth> as i it is done in real life?
20:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: no
20:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: that is not the point
20:22:21  <Chris_Booth> ooh ok
20:22:41  <SmatZ> train approaching crossing =/=> reserved
20:22:46  <SmatZ> train on crossing =/=> reserved
20:22:48  <Chris_Booth> i just though if you had a set number like 7 tiles away and the gates close
20:23:07  <SmatZ> there are some corner cases when train is on crossing without reserved track
20:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: yes, the question is, if it can be achieved that it will become a "==>"
20:23:16  <SmatZ> (generally, on any track tile)
20:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: like how?
20:23:25  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: with a lot of computing power
20:23:37  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: two trains at one tile, leave with one
20:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yes
20:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i see
20:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's a problem one might ignore
20:24:30  <SmatZ> it would be too easy to kill opponent's cars
20:24:38  <SmatZ> maybe even not intentionally
20:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it already IS too easy to kill opponents cars ;)
20:25:15  <Chris_Booth> make it so that trains cant crash into buses
20:25:21  <Chris_Booth> as with boats / planes
20:26:58  <Rubidium> yeah, just remove all crashing :)
20:27:06  <Rubidium> and let them run whereever they want
20:27:12  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: well my aim was, to store two flags in the map: that the crossing is "forced" closed, and that the crossing is "weak" closed. so it can be easily calculated on changing the "forced" closed state, one could traverse the adjacent crossings and "weak" close them, or open them, if no crossing is "force" closed
20:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so i thought i'd use the "reserved" flag as the "forced" flag, and the "barred" flag as "weak" flag
20:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so it wouldn't need more map space
20:29:30  <SmatZ> Zuu: I just wanted to suggest you to use "those arrow buttons from newgrf GUI" but it seems, it's only present in the "better newgrf gui patch"
20:29:43  <SmatZ> Zuu: could you open a FS task please?
20:32:11  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "forced" and "weak"
20:33:01  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: when closing adjacent crossings simultaneously, you have to remember somehow, how many of the crossings are actually occupied
20:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you can only open them, if none of them is occupied anymore
20:33:26  <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: wouldnt it be eaiser to close both crossings at once?
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20:33:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: the problem is not closing them, but opening them
20:33:44  <Chris_Booth> so then you can get the issue of this ever?
20:33:52  <andythenorth> evening
20:34:02  <Chris_Booth> well then close and open them both at once
20:34:07  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: so you are talking about the case when you have several crossings in one PBS block
20:34:07  <Eddi|zuHause> rather: deciding programmatically, when to open them
20:34:10  <fjb> Moin andythenorth
20:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: no, i mean crossings on parallel tracks
20:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> adjacent following the road bit
20:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: currently, especially with PBS, those are a death trap
20:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: so the idea is closing them all at once, so vehicles won't pile up in the middle of the crossing
20:35:36  <SmatZ> ah
20:35:41  <_ln> today i saw the perfect screen for playing OpenTTD at an electronics store... a Panasonic 103-inch plasma tv, fullhd.
20:36:01  <Xaroth> it won't work
20:36:07  <Xaroth> TV screens aren't made for games
20:36:11  <Chris_Booth> _ln: how is that perfect?
20:36:11  <Chris_Booth> its still only 1080p
20:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause> _ln: no, TV screens are ugly, they have too little resolution
20:36:33  <Chris_Booth> 103 inch 1080 is the same as a 24 inch PC screen
20:36:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you just have 6 times larger pixels...
20:36:55  <Xaroth> try 17 inch
20:37:14  <Eddi|zuHause> or 8 times
20:37:16  <Rubidium> so... no need for the 'extrazoom' 32bpp crap
20:37:33  <_ln> that's almost like saying 2 inch is as good as 8.
20:38:01  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: But you have to prevent the road vehicles from entering the crossing while still allowing the vehicles on the crossing to leave it (and still using the parallel crossing on that way).
20:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> _ln: the size doesn't matter :p
20:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: second step...
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20:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: or third...
20:38:22  <Chris_Booth> Xaroth: you have a 17 inch screen that is 1900 x 1080?
20:38:39  <Xaroth> no, but which part of 103 inch did you miss?
20:39:24  <Chris_Booth> the 71 inches
20:40:34  <Chris_Booth> as i use my 32 inch pc screen for most things
20:40:42  * Eddi|zuHause just has a hard time imagining, extrapolating from his screen, where he'd put 15 more screens of that size...
20:41:11  <Alberth> you need a bigger house
20:41:14  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: new house? :P
20:42:21  <Xaroth> KenjiE20: Dominion!
20:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> _ln: anyway, could be more useful for Wii-Partys and the like...
20:42:41  <KenjiE20> 26% d/l'd
20:42:49  <Xaroth> HAH!
20:42:51  * Xaroth at loginscreen
20:43:02  <KenjiE20> well whoop dee do
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20:43:34  <Xaroth> ooo mail icon at login screen o_O
20:44:18  <_ln> the price tag was quite high though, so i couldn't buy the thing right away.... 64,990 euros.
20:44:20  <Xaroth> oo, mass mark as read
20:45:20  <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: get a bigger desk
20:45:20  <Chris_Booth> i have 2 screens on my desk a 19" LCD and a 32" LCD
20:45:20  <Chris_Booth> how far would you need to sit from a 103" screen to be albe to see ti all?
20:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> across the road :p
20:46:18  <andythenorth> anyone tried a recent nightly of FIRS, where farm / engineering supplies work as intended?
20:46:23  <_ln> you can watch it through a reversed binocular so it looks smaller
20:47:02  <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: when was the last nightly for FIRS released?
20:47:26  <andythenorth> should be 21st Nov
20:47:29  <Rubidium> 21-11-2009 18:18?
20:47:34  <Chris_Booth> also andythenorth i can put it on #openttdcoop/pro for the next game if you have released to bananas
20:47:47  <andythenorth> Rubidium: yes, that looks right
20:48:04  <KenjiE20> ^ that should be .dev C_B
20:48:35  <Chris_Booth> KenjiE20: why? if its on bananas everyone can get it
20:48:42  <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: I don't like to release an unfinished grf to bananas....not all players will understand it  ;)
20:49:13  <KenjiE20> If it was on BaNaNas why limit it to PZ anyway?
20:49:36  <andythenorth> release early...release often is good but only with users who understand what that means
20:50:43  <andythenorth> anyway, just wondering if anyone else had tried recent FIRS.  I have played quite a long's...interesting
20:50:54  <Chris_Booth> KenjiE20: i said #openttdcoop/pro
20:51:00  <Chris_Booth> not '.'
20:51:41  <Chris_Booth> anyway i dont have enough time to play at the moment so i cant put make maps
20:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause> why is there "UpdateLevelCrossing" and "MaybeBarCrossingWithSound"?
20:53:07  <SmatZ> see where are those functions used
20:53:12  <SmatZ> and what they do :-p
20:53:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18360 /trunk/config.lib: -Add: configure 'support' for GCC's LTO and ICC's IPO
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20:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the latter is used on train reversing and "check if line ends", so possibly in these stages, the "/* train on crossing || train approaching crossing || reserved */" check could give incorrect results
21:00:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess one could replace those with making a reservation instead
21:00:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and then reusing the other function
21:02:43  <SmatZ> reservation insided non-pbs block? hmhm
21:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, afair the train reserves space underneath it anyway, regardless of pbs block
21:03:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the question is, if this could interfer with the regular pbs reservation
21:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm prototyping my idea here...
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21:06:39  <frosch123> hmm, you cannot just reserve level crossings. reservation is also uses to test whether another train has reserved a tile
21:06:59  <frosch123> searching for free paths stops at reserved tracks
21:07:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what i mean...
21:07:43  <frosch123> or do you want the roadvehicle to reserve it :p
21:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> in the situations i mentioned, the train itself would be either on top of the tile, or on the tile before
21:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so it should not interfer with reservation of other trains
21:08:44  <frosch123> anyway, why do you want to use the reservation bit, if there is already a "reserved" (= barred) bit
21:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i explained above, i need two flags
21:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> a "closed, because train is here" and a "closed, because adjacent is closed"
21:10:30  <frosch123> and when you have three crossings in a row, the first is reserved, all are closed and you remove the one in the middle?
21:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so if a train says "i'm through here, you can open this", i need to cycle through all adjacent crossings, if neither of them says "closed, because train is here", i can open them
21:11:13  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: then at that point you need to update the adjacent crossings the same way
21:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's a case that can be handled, but first i need to finish this prototype ;)
21:21:25  *** lewymati [] has quit []
21:23:20  <Hirundo> train_cmd.cpp line ~4100: DeleteLastWagon(v); SetWindowDirty(WC_REPLACE_VEHICLE, (v->group_id << 16) | VEH_TRAIN);
21:23:48  <Hirundo> Isn't v a dangling pointer if DeleteLastWagon(v) removes v itself?
21:24:01  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't v be the first vehicle?
21:26:05  <Hirundo> first == last if there is only one
21:26:12  <SmatZ> could be
21:26:13  * SmatZ tests
21:26:28  <frosch123> looks like it
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21:28:27  <SmatZ> yes, it is
21:28:57  <frosch123> only is dangerous since newest pool :)
21:29:08  <frosch123> so only trunk
21:30:21  <SmatZ> ;)
21:31:45  <frosch123> hehe, true, the dirtiing the window does not care about vehicles
21:32:16  <frosch123> but, actually, why is the function there and not in some predestructor?
21:32:47  <SmatZ> good question :)
21:33:43  *** zodttd2 is now known as zodttd
21:34:12  <frosch123> it should be at that point, where the engine counter is decreased
21:34:39  <SmatZ> makes sense
21:36:57  <frosch123> and it is already done
21:37:14  <frosch123> 		if (this->owner == _local_company) InvalidateAutoreplaceWindow(this->engine_type, this->group_id); <- in Vehicle::PreDestructor
21:37:38  <SmatZ> hehe
21:37:41  <frosch123> though i wonder whether group_id is set for all wagons :s
21:37:47  <SmatZ> hmm
21:37:49  <SmatZ> hmmmmmmm
21:38:09  <frosch123> which leads to my favorite function :p
21:38:38  *** andythenorth [~andy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:39:19  <frosch123> yes, UpdateTrainGroupID is called somewhere
21:39:23  <SmatZ> evjoy ;)
21:39:25  <SmatZ> enjoy
21:39:46  <frosch123> so, i guess we can just remove that line :p
21:39:49  <frosch123> right?
21:40:07  <SmatZ> if it doesn't break anything
21:40:15  <SmatZ> maybe it can be removed from other vehicle types as well
21:40:17  <SmatZ> like, RVs
21:40:29  *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@] has joined #openttd
21:40:36  <frosch123> already grepped for the windowclass, nothing found
21:40:45  <SmatZ> ok :)
21:40:49  <frosch123> i guess it was just forgotton to remove it from there too
21:41:13  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
21:41:31  <frosch123> who commits and takes the blame if it was needed nevertheless? :p
21:41:51  <SmatZ> you
21:41:53  <SmatZ> :-)
21:42:16  <frosch123> ok, train_cmd is untouched in this working copy
21:42:44  <Alberth> good night
21:43:09  <SmatZ> good night, Alberth
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21:46:03  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18361 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Remove unneeded usage of invalid pointer. Also thank Hirundo and SmatZ.
21:46:35  <SmatZ> ;-)
21:47:08  <frosch123> it was fun to type "unneeded usage of invalid" :p
21:47:25  <SmatZ> hehe
21:47:45  *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
21:48:22  * frosch123 wonders when Zuu is going to broil petert
21:48:44  *** Muxy [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
21:49:16  <frosch123> "Zuu: it was nice to use the nested widgets" - "petert: can you backport it to 0.7" lol
21:51:02  <andythenorth> could anyone use generic narrow gauge trainset?
21:51:09  <andythenorth> (if I made one)
21:51:20  <andythenorth> kind of industrial-ish
21:51:28  <andythenorth> mix of us / europe
21:51:42  <andythenorth> oh, australia as well
21:52:43  <frosch123> like heqs? e.g. mining locomotives?
21:53:08  <frosch123> even battery powered
21:53:27  <andythenorth> maybe
21:54:04  <frosch123> heqs on rails sounds interesting :p
21:54:23  <fjb> Would be fun, especially in combination with railtypes. :-)
21:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i used the early cargo trams of the german tram set for that, but they have horribly low capacity for their size
21:55:28  <frosch123> hehe, you mean the 8 part trams with less capacity than two trucks?
21:58:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something like that...
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22:09:18  <Zuu> frosch123: Yea, that was a nice way to put it :-)
22:12:52  *** Gremnon [] has joined #openttd
22:19:06  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18362 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Cleanup: remove OPF for RVs and NTP to clean up lots of code and simplify some things for the future
22:19:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what future?
22:19:55  <frosch123> one without rv-opf and ntp
22:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> ... always this mysticism ;)
22:20:12  *** Gremnon [] has quit [Quit: Goodbyeeeee]
22:20:29  <frosch123> otoh, cleanup always refers to the past
22:20:50  <Rubidium> with path signals NTP was already hardcoded 'overridden' to NPF
22:21:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so, why keep NPF?
22:22:18  <frosch123> why remove it?
22:22:27  <Rubidium> less memory requirements, way to test behaviour
22:22:45  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did you ever debug yapf?
22:22:54  <Eddi|zuHause> no, ;)
22:23:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i tried, but didn't understand the output ;)
22:23:54  <frosch123> npf is like -b8bpp-simple :p
22:24:04  <Zuu> frosch123: Unfortunately I'm not really that evil peroson that I'll broil petert that much.
22:25:18  <frosch123> :p
22:27:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18363 /trunk/src/ (47 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: do not require advanced settings multistrings to start at 0
22:27:55  <SmatZ> cool 0.8 feature ;)
22:28:20  <frosch123> yeah, the cleanups of the past lead to new features :p
22:28:27  <SmatZ> hehe
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22:30:43  <Zuu> The "broil" is ready :-)
22:31:15  *** Chrill [~chrischri@] has joined #openttd
22:38:21  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
22:39:42  <Coco-Banana-Man> YAY! :D
22:39:52  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:40:10  *** Polygon [] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!]
22:40:16  * Coco-Banana-Man finally finished his Shinkansen-Line from West to East of a 1024² map :D :D
22:40:34  <SmatZ> :-)
22:40:35  * Zuu high fives Coco-Banana-Man
22:40:39  <Coco-Banana-Man> I think I spend around 5 Billions of Yen :D
22:40:50  <Coco-Banana-Man> *spent
22:41:20  * Zuu hopes Coco-Banana-Man did not just drag a long straight track, but actually but some love into it.
22:41:30  <Coco-Banana-Man> what I want to say with that: BaseCostsMod ftw!!! <3
22:41:33  * SmatZ buts love in it
22:41:46  <Zuu> put*
22:42:34  <Coco-Banana-Man> but now I need to build signals on it :(
22:42:53  <Coco-Banana-Man> And find a nice place for the depot...
22:43:01  <Zuu> Be glad that you can drag them out :-)
22:43:17  <Zuu> I remember the old days when you had to place every signal by hand.
22:43:19  <Coco-Banana-Man> hm, never tried that feature...
22:43:33  <Coco-Banana-Man> That's how I'm usually still doing it.
22:43:54  <Zuu>
22:44:14  <Zuu> Reading that can probably save you some time :-)
22:45:28  <Zuu> I switched to OpenTTD when they implemented auto-rails and you was able to drag diagonal rails. :-)
22:45:52  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18364 /trunk/ (44 files in 8 dirs): -Codechange: move the pathfinders and their related files into a separate directory
22:48:37  <Coco-Banana-Man> hey, just having to push Ctrl and then drag is really niiiice :D
22:48:47  <Coco-Banana-Man> thanks Zuu =D
22:48:53  <Zuu> Your welcome :-)
22:49:06  <Zuu> I'm glad I could save you a ton of clicks :-)
22:51:06  <Zuu> If you havn't learned about the path signals I suggest that you read on on the signals wiki where it talks more about signals.
22:51:37  <Zuu> Especially the path-signal section.
22:52:00  <Coco-Banana-Man> oh, I'm very aware of Path-signals ;)
22:52:12  <Zuu> Good
22:52:19  <Coco-Banana-Man> I just never tried the automatically placing feature
22:52:37  <Coco-Banana-Man> But I knew it existed
22:53:11  <Zuu> Eh, that is weired. You gladely cilcked hundreds of times and knew there was an automatic tool?
22:54:41  *** Grelouk_ [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
22:55:55  <Coco-Banana-Man> yes - as I said, I've never tried it - and actually didn't think it would be that easy and work so well
23:05:13  *** JVassie^ [~TheExile^] has joined #openttd
23:10:41  *** Luukland [] has joined #openttd
23:10:44  <Luukland> Mr Rubidium?
23:11:02  <Luukland> How come when long bridges are disabled, ppl can still build 51-tile aquaducts?
23:11:25  <Muxy> Real time processing
23:11:48  <Luukland> Sounds very difficult
23:12:18  *** JVassie [~TheExile^] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what's the function to get the direction of the road bit on the crossing?
23:15:50  <Rubidium> check road_map.h
23:16:15  <Rubidium> I reckon GetCrossingRoadAxis
23:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i see...
23:18:15  <Rubidium> they can't build an aquaduct that long (ever)
23:18:52  <Rubidium> (but that's me being pedantic)
23:19:06  * Luukland goes verify it
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23:19:45  <Luukland> Uuuhhhmm
23:19:54  <Luukland> I do see a 55-tile aquaduct Mr Rubidium
23:19:59  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18365 /trunk/src/ship_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup: remove duplicate table
23:20:06  <Luukland> See for yourselve at S4
23:21:32  <SmatZ> hmm yes, I just built 184 tiles long one
23:21:59  <Rubidium>
23:22:05  *** xi23 [~xi@] has joined #openttd
23:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> why is it not spelled aquaeduct anyway?
23:22:53  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18366 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move the OPF ship pathfinder 'magic' that was in ship_cmd.cpp to the pathfinder code itself
23:23:20  <Luukland> Hmmmm, cos 3 aeau type letters are to be messed with?
23:23:52  <_ln> Eddi|zuHause: you mean 'aquaeduct'?
23:23:53  <Zuu> I think dvorak had a dark plan there :-p
23:24:28  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: because then the English can't pronounce it right
23:25:01  *** Luukland [] has quit []
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23:25:54  <Rubidium> but finally someone finds aqueducts can be of (almost) infinite length
23:26:16  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
23:26:30  <_ln> how much shorter than infinity?
23:26:37  <Zuu> Rubidium: Didn't you made an evil AI test map with really long aqueducts?
23:26:53  <Rubidium> no, really long (slow) bridges
23:27:03  <Rubidium> and slow flooding
23:27:21  <Zuu> Hmm, then it was someone else / something else
23:27:50  <Zuu> But those maps I do remember, and the one with build on slope turned off.
23:44:40  <orudge> [13:44:38] <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: feature request: have an additional forum style that does not seasonally change, but shows the "temperate" style at all times <-- that's something that's been requested a few times, but would be somewhat of a faff
23:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure what a "faff" is
23:45:09  <orudge> a hassle
23:45:10  <orudge> or a pain
23:45:19  <orudge> to implement
23:45:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but how difficult can it be to copy an existing style?
23:46:29  <orudge> well, not hard as such, but then it needs maintaining during the year (which OK, just involves duplicating the main one basically), plus then you'd no doubt get users wondering "why don't I have the Christmas theme?", or "why are there two identical TT themes", etc. Anyway, people get used to the winter theme, then the normal theme looks odd to them when it's taken away again ;)
23:47:04  <Zuu> Or one just stick to subsilver :-)
23:47:17  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
23:47:20  *** Chrill [~chrischri@] has joined #openttd
23:47:47  <Pikka> Chrill you goon
23:48:19  <Chrill> goon? :( Whyy?
23:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> orudge: no, i can never get used to the christmas theme...
23:48:32  <Pikka> because you joined a second after I did
23:48:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the colours hurt my eyes...
23:48:38  <Chrill> is that so?
23:48:41  <Chrill> I follow you, Pikka
23:48:56  <Pikka> dundundun
23:51:12  <Sacro> orudge: toyland theme kthx
23:51:17  <orudge> Sacro: that happens at Easter
23:51:21  <orudge> except I've forgotten for the past few years
23:51:49  <Chrill> The Toyland theme.. ah
23:52:58  <_ln> when's the time for the tropical theme?
23:53:17  <orudge> so far, there has been no such thing
23:54:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but... global warming...
23:55:37  <_ln> and mars?
23:56:16  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18367 /trunk/ (13 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: unify the ship pathfinder 'calls'
23:56:51  <Zuu> Yea, a cop15 theme :-)
23:57:56  <Zuu> Actually I think the winter theme looks nicer than the temperate theme, but that is because I only look on the TTD themes, I never use them for reading posts. :-)

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