Log for #openttd on 28th December 2009:
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00:17:02  <dragonhorseboy> hey
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00:30:25  <ntas> some one here??
00:30:48  <ntas> hello??
00:31:11  <dragonhorseboy> yes?
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00:33:21  <ntas> I need some help
00:34:09  <dragonhorseboy> with what?
00:34:40  <ntas> I'm playing ttd and I've looked up a coal mine that produces a lot of coal, I made a railway to a powea
00:34:45  <ntas> plant....
00:35:20  <ntas> now i've been waiting for some time, but it isn transporting all of the coal
00:35:42  <dragonhorseboy> is the train set to 'wait for full load' at the coal mine and to just go to the powerplant then back?
00:36:02  <ntas> it says it has 120 coal , but only 27 % is transported
00:37:09  <ntas> and there is coal in my station
00:37:21  <ntas> and it doesnt get more
00:37:36  <ntas> can i transport all of the coal???
00:37:38  <dragonhorseboy> how much can your train hold?
00:37:56  <ntas> enough for the 50 in my station
00:38:08  <dragonhorseboy> so your train is ONLY 50 tonnes of coal?
00:38:56  <ntas> it isn't set on full load, because then i'll be waiting for an hour, because there isn't enough
00:39:12  <ntas> the nummbers are in perspective;)
00:39:17  <dragonhorseboy> ntas..umm .. are you sure the coal mine says 120 tonnes and your train has a capacity of 50 tonnes?
00:39:39  <ntas> let me look the precies nummbers up for you
00:39:43  <ntas> hang on a minute
00:39:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: "Ha, I thought the midi files are much bigger, something above mp3, but they are around 50kb" <-- it's like comparing text files to images
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00:40:39  <dragonhorseboy> eddi :)
00:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> where midi is the text files (instead of letters, you have notes), and mp3 is the image file
00:42:51  <ntas> the mine produces 136 tonnes of coal last month, witch of only 23% was transported
00:43:04  <ntas> there is 101 tonnes of coal in my station at the moment
00:43:28  <ntas> and I have one train with 6 time 30 tonnes of coal cappacity
00:43:39  <ntas> what to do??:P
00:44:32  <dragonhorseboy> hmm you sure you're not wanting to leave the train on 'wait for full load'? I mean 180 tonnes of coal on the train can't take too long to fill up from a 136 tonnes coal mine as long as your station rating is above 50%
00:45:39  <ntas> so you think that when I put my train on full load, the amount of coal in my station will increase??
00:46:14  <ntas> because, then i'll do that with all my trains, because I have this problem at all my stations:(
00:46:19  <ntas> even much worse
00:46:27  <dragonhorseboy> well're actually making it worser
00:46:29  <dragonhorseboy> thats all I can say ;)
00:46:45  <ntas> how:S
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00:47:41  <dragonhorseboy> if you have a train with capacity of 180 tonnes and only pick up the immedate 60 tonnes of coal sitting at station then leave to not come back in less than ten days there's going to be coal sitting at the station and the station rating will only just go downhill and eventually start losing wanting to give you generious amounts
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00:48:50  <ntas> ahhh...okay, i understand!, if you have a bad rating you'll get shitty amounts;)
00:49:08  <dragonhorseboy> ya .. keep it above 50% in general ... 60+% is much better
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00:49:15  <dragonhorseboy> 70-80% is a very decent rating
00:49:20  <ntas> okay thanks!!
00:49:27  <ntas> I'll go and fix it;)
00:49:30  <ntas> bye!
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01:09:39  <Terkhen> good night
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02:19:39  <sparr> am i correct in saying that "% transported" is a misnomer and actually reflects ratings?
02:20:07  <ajmiles> i don't think so, no
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02:22:17  <sparr> if i have trains sitting in the station all the time, how can % transported be <100%?
02:23:24  <ajmiles> perhaps it actually has to be taken somewhere, just speculating, as I'm not sure of the answer
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02:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's some kind of average rating
02:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> or first of the month
02:26:35  <Eddi|zuHause> or something
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02:30:36  <sparr> source diving in openttd is about to become my new hobby :)
02:30:49  <sparr> there are so many things that nobody understands completely, or the people who do aren't willing to share
02:31:16  <sparr> in #openttdcoop we (some subset of the players) discovered today that running cost goes up based on train age
02:31:40  <ajmiles> that's no surprise, and hardly hidden is it?
02:31:48  <sparr> it was a big surprise for us
02:31:55  <sparr> and it's "hidden" when inflation is on
02:32:29  <sparr> that is, the cost goes up over time anyway, so the effect of the age of the train is obscured
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02:33:36  <sparr> i might wager that most openttd players don't know that
02:34:16  <ajmiles> most of the time a given train's income so incredibly outweighs the running cost it doesn't matter much
02:34:28  <sparr> yeah, we were in the not-most of the time :)
02:34:39  <sparr> inflation caught up, to the point where most of our trains were losing money
02:34:48  <sparr> someone just happened to notice that younger trains were still making money
02:35:06  <ajmiles> don't cargo payment rates go up in line with inflation?
02:35:18  <sparr> apparently not quite enough
02:35:41  <sparr> answering that question is another reason to go to the source :)
02:36:06  <ajmiles> the game is so complex i would get used to going to the source :)
02:36:09  <sparr> i also want to know all the nitty gritty details of Local Authority ratings, i'm tired of "plant trees at random until it goes up"
02:36:14  <ajmiles> heh
02:36:22  <ajmiles> they are rather harsh
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02:36:38  <sparr> or "oops, that demolish lowered it more than i expected, now im screwed"
02:37:13  <ajmiles> they certainly don't much like me landscaping around their towns :)
02:37:24  <sparr> i was trying to replace an airport with a bigger one
02:37:33  <sparr> and accidentally replaced it with a new (different name) station
02:37:37  <sparr> had to demolish and try again...
02:37:45  <sparr> but the SECOND demolish lowered my rating enough that i couldn't rebuild
02:38:18  <ajmiles> yeah, the ability to do that sort of "upgrade" would be good without a rating hit
02:38:40  <ajmiles> you have to build intercontinental airports really early because you know upgrading later on is going to be hard
02:39:04  <ashb> i usually buy/cordon off the land for the larger one
02:39:24  <sparr> ashb:  did that
02:39:41  <ashb> part of the problem is tree growth is stupid
02:39:51  <ashb> after 50years trees are *everywhere*
02:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a setting for that now
02:40:06  <ashb> ah that made it to trunk? cool
02:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure about what you mean by "that", but "something" made it to trunk
02:40:50  <ashb> there was a patch flaoting around htat either tweaked it or made it a setting
02:41:05  <ashb> (this was about 9-15months ago when i last looked at tht)
02:41:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably not it ;)
02:42:06  <ashb> dont care so long as i can slow down tree growth
02:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically "don't let trees spread to tiles that don't have a tree yet"
02:43:26  <sparr> why do we care about tree growth?
02:43:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and that makes it slightly biased towards "trees will eventually die out"
02:44:07  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: because trees are the biggest town rating killers
02:44:21  <sparr> orly
02:44:22  <Kovensky> s/killers/resurrecters/
02:44:55  <ashb> Kovensky: can't resurrect the rating if the town is already fully surrounded by full tree tiles
02:45:03  <ashb> which often happens in my games
02:45:13  <Kovensky> wasn't there that cheat where you delete some 200 or so tiles
02:45:17  <Kovensky> and then replant them all
02:45:25  <Eddi|zuHause> ashb: yes. just destroy the other trees before. rating can't drop below 0
02:45:32  <ashb> true
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02:47:07  <sparr> i play with trees transparent...  in a coop game in year 2300 the map is completely covered
02:47:12  <sparr> impossible to play with them on
02:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i love trees
02:47:33  <Kovensky> I make trees invisible
02:47:34  <ajmiles> yeah, i have invisible trees, don't even think about destroying them
02:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and you should make them invisible instead of transparent
02:47:44  <sparr> i meant invisible, sorry
02:47:55  <sparr> to me, translucent/transparent, not transparent/invisible
02:48:34  <ashb> yeah i'd quite like to be able to play with trees on but not have them cover the entire map
02:48:46  <ashb> cos it adds a lot of visual candy if they are in some places
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03:04:35  <sparr> i'm used to nethack, where every wiki page has links to the source as citations :)
03:04:52  <sparr> around here it's all speculation and experimentation
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04:04:33  <Annil> CAN someone please tell me why this happens, i downloaded open TTD downloaded AIS, but my AIs keep building airports, bus stops etc(but no vehicles), and hence go bankrupt
04:04:47  <Annil> what am i doing wrong, i have downloaded all the online content available ?
04:05:59  <PeterT> What AIs?
04:06:12  <PeterT> *Which
04:06:16  <Annil> all the Ais available for download
04:06:18  <Annil> one sec
04:06:44  <Annil> admiral ai
04:06:46  <Annil> choo choo
04:06:47  <Annil> etc
04:06:58  <Annil> chopper
04:07:01  <Annil> cluelessplus
04:07:10  <Annil> otvial
04:07:11  <Annil> convoy
04:07:23  <Annil> towncars
04:07:26  <Annil> streettraffic
04:07:37  <Annil> convoy
04:08:02  <Annil> I just can't get the computer players do build any vehicles, they build plenty of airports and busstops but  no vehicles
04:08:11  <ajmiles> it's all part of their master plan
04:08:24  <Annil> thats not helping, they go bankrupt
04:08:28  <Annil> and i have to buy them over
04:10:59  <PeterT> Can you open the AI debug window?
04:11:05  <PeterT> read the errors, perhaps?
04:12:26  <PeterT> if there are any, of course
04:12:28  <Annil> ok will try that
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04:18:06  <PeterT> I was sort of hoping he would report something back
04:18:37  <ajmiles> that would have been too helpful
04:19:09  <PeterT> My bad
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04:33:38  <De_Ghosty> ai are such hottible players
04:33:48  <De_Ghosty> horrible*
04:34:51  <ajmiles> are there any AI that can beat human players?
04:36:52  <PeterT> No
04:37:33  <ajmiles> why has one not been written? simply too difficult?
04:39:16  <PeterT> What would qualify as "beat the human", exactly?
04:39:41  <ajmiles> in a given time accrue more money than a human can
04:40:11  <ajmiles> humans being limited by their slow building :)
04:40:53  <PeterT> Ah
04:41:18  <PeterT> Trains AI, or whatever was quite good
04:41:40  <PeterT> had presignals and everything
04:41:46  <ajmiles> when AI build things incrementally is that by design, or does the AI framework only allow the AI to make a certain number of actions per tick?
04:41:51  <PeterT> and it built an entire long coal line in one game month
04:42:10  <ajmiles> because presumably an AI could build an entire network in a single tick (money notwithstanding)
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05:05:15  <PeterT> I'm off
05:05:17  <PeterT> night
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05:34:15  <teshiron> I like the new ability to sort stations by lowest cargo rating (in 1.0.0), but the ascending/descending behavior seems backwards to me.
05:34:33  <ajmiles> backwards how?
05:37:31  <De_Ghosty>
05:38:17  <De_Ghosty> the ai just out build you
05:38:32  <De_Ghosty> and mess up ur play with tracks everywhere
05:39:20  <ajmiles> i guess that's a problem
05:40:04  <ajmiles> less so on a larger map though
05:40:19  <ajmiles> on 2048x2048 you could somehow agree to use 1024x2048 each :)
05:41:38  <De_Ghosty> nah
05:41:50  <De_Ghosty> i haven't seen the train ai in action
05:44:28  <teshiron> backwards in the sense that when you sort descendingly on "lowest cargo rating", the top of the list is the lowest and the ratings *increase* as you go down the list
05:44:53  <teshiron> when I choose "descending" for a sort, I naturally expect the numerical values involved to, well, descend. :)
05:45:33  <ajmiles> it is right how it is
05:45:40  <teshiron> how so?
05:45:48  <ajmiles> when you sort descendingly, you want the most lowest cargo rating at the top :)
05:46:47  <ajmiles> if you were sorting by maximum speed descendingly then yes, the numbers would get smaller as you go down. but lower numbers in this case are "better", so should be at the top
05:46:56  <teshiron> see, I expected it to behave the same, numerically, as the old "cargo rating" sort, but instead sort on the lowest rating at the station instead of the highest
05:47:12  <teshiron> I did not expect the sort itself to be reversed
05:47:27  <teshiron> and I wouldn't be surprised if it confuses others if it actually gets released that way
05:47:32  <ajmiles> well, the old one is the same was "highest cargo rating" is now
05:47:47  <teshiron> right.
05:47:47  <ajmiles> so it makes sense that lowest cargo rating should be sorted oppositely
05:47:58  <teshiron> no, not at all
05:48:14  <sparr> it never makes sense for 1 2 3 4 5 to be "descending"
05:48:19  <teshiron> *exactly*
05:48:30  <ajmiles> it does is the sort category is "lowest numbers first"
05:48:33  <ajmiles> *if the
05:48:42  <teshiron> but that's just it
05:49:09  <teshiron> I don't necessarily want the lowest numbers first... I just want it to pick from the lowest rating of the multiple cargoes at my station
05:49:26  <teshiron> and whether I choose to sort ascending or descending, the numbers involved should make sense
05:49:37  <teshiron> rather, the order of the numbers
05:49:38  * teshiron shrugs
05:49:56  <ajmiles> when a station has multiple cargoes what is the 'value' for a given station?
05:50:04  <ajmiles> 'any' ?
05:50:19  <ajmiles> ie, when sorting by highest cargo rating it picks the highest and when sorting by lowest it picks the lowest?
05:50:25  <teshiron> that's correct
05:50:29  <teshiron> formerly, it was always the highest
05:50:45  <ajmiles> but then how would you ever find a low cargo rating on a station?
05:50:52  <teshiron> you wouldn't
05:50:57  <teshiron> that's why they implemented the new sort :D
05:51:37  <ajmiles> i think at the end of the day it's probably just preference, and to get it the way you want it's only one extra mouse click to invert the list. is that the only problem with it?
05:51:53  <teshiron> I'm not talking about the effort involved to flip the list
05:52:03  <teshiron> I'm talking about the confusion incurred
05:52:35  <teshiron> it took me a good three or four flips of the list around before I figured exactly what it was doing, and I expect others would be similarly confused, especially if they're used to using the old sort
05:52:49  <teshiron> and I don't consider myself particularly slow on the uptake. :)
05:53:10  <teshiron> but you're right, I can make the list do what I want, and the direction of the arrow is not of earth-shaking importance.
05:53:14  <ajmiles> i'm only used to the new one (not because i haven't played openttd before, but because i never used the old one), and it does exactly what I'd expect it to.
05:53:53  <ajmiles> lets me find the lowest and highest cargo ratings of given stations, i guess I'm saying I don't quite understand the problem :)
05:54:09  <ajmiles> but then it won't be up to me to fix it, so it doesn't matter too much
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05:56:38  <teshiron> yeah, I didn't think I was explaining myself clearly :)
05:56:55  <teshiron> I meant, from the perspective of user interface design, one wants one's interface to be self-consistent
05:57:08  <teshiron> ascending sorts mean that numbers should go up, and descending sorts mean numbers should go down
05:57:15  <teshiron> regardless of what value one is sorting by.
05:57:21  <ajmiles> mmm I think that's where I disagree
05:57:44  <ajmiles> what if the sort category was (theoretically) "Breakdowns per year"? descending should have the best at the top
05:57:48  <ajmiles> ie "0"
05:58:16  <ajmiles> i know we're talking about vehicles rather than stations, but I'm talking UI generally
05:58:56  <ajmiles> whereas "Reliability" descending would have "100%" at the top and "0%" at the bottom
05:59:16  <teshiron> but breakdowns per year doesn't imply, by title, whether that's "I want good vehicles" or "I want bad vehicles"
05:59:39  <teshiron> if the interface always sorts strictly numerically, then a user has much more of a chance to intuit the correct sort on the first try
06:00:36  <ajmiles> if the user had that station dialog set to "Descending / Highest Cargo Rating" you'd expect the highest at the top of the list right?
06:01:10  <teshiron> only because I expect descending sorts to always have the highest number at the top of the list, out of whatever is being measured
06:01:17  <teshiron> not because of the name of the sort
06:01:21  <ajmiles> what I think would be strange is for the user to then change the category to "Lowest Cargo Rating" and in effect the list would barely change order
06:01:36  <ajmiles> (assuming one cargo type per station)
06:01:49  <teshiron> now, you do raise an interesting point there.
06:02:11  <teshiron> however, there's no point for having the two different sorts if there's only one cargo per station -- that's what the ascend/descend is for :)
06:02:45  <teshiron> I think this one really is just a difference of opinion after all...
06:03:10  <ajmiles> also, without loading up the game to check, it doesn't actually show numbers on the list does it?
06:03:27  <teshiron> not directly in the list, not actual numbers
06:03:27  <ajmiles> it's just a list of station names iirc
06:03:41  <teshiron> the bars under the icons for the waiting cargos are colored green/red to approximate the rating
06:03:46  <teshiron> but not actual numbers
06:03:54  <teshiron> (and the bar is like 1px big)
06:04:14  <ajmiles> yeah, it's a bit hard to see, and in fact i've never taken the time to work out what it meant :)
06:04:50  <teshiron> yes, it's the rating for that particular cargo :)
06:05:39  <ajmiles> what might be useful is if when sorting by highest/lowest cargo rating it actually had the %age and name of cargo written explicitly
06:05:48  <ajmiles> just the one cargo type by which it go its position in that list
06:05:52  <ajmiles> *got
06:07:24  <teshiron> for most regular games, that would be great... it would worry me a bit at some kind of megastation with 6 or 7 different cargoes waiting, that it would be harder to see everything at a glance
06:07:47  <teshiron> but in the vast majority of my games, I don't get anywhere near that many at any one station
06:08:16  <ajmiles> well that was my point, it would only be for the highest/lowest cargo rating sort categories, it would pick just the one cargo type for that station (either highest or lowest) and put it next to the station name
06:08:28  <ajmiles> if you were sorting by... total cargo value it wouldn't display any explicitly
06:08:31  <ajmiles> or name
06:09:12  <ajmiles> the total cargo value one is a bit of a mystery to me too, by what measure does it have value before it's transported anywhere?
06:10:10  <ajmiles> it could use the cargo payment graph and just do a lookup for 10 days 10 squares transported, but different cargoes have different falloffs depending on distance/time
06:10:40  <teshiron> yeah, I think it probably uses the early delivery rate (the start of the graph)
06:11:35  <ajmiles> it could try and be smarter and try and work out how much a given unit of cargo from the industry that supplied it makes the player on average (until that point)
06:12:16  <ajmiles> 1000 tons of coal at one station transported 10 squares in effect has lower value than 100 tons at a station where i'll transport it 2000 squares. but perhaps that's a different category altogether
06:12:35  <teshiron> mm, that would require it to store that data somewhere
06:13:00  * ajmiles has some spare RAM :)
06:13:17  <teshiron> and I don't know as it does that... though perhaps it could do a quick calculation based on average profit of the vehicles at that station carrying that cargo type
06:13:55  <teshiron> since any particular originating station might have the same cargo dropped off at an infinite number of destinations, I think calculating actual values would fail badly.
06:14:13  <teshiron> (infinite limited by the maximum number of stations, etc, but you get my point)
06:14:16  <ajmiles> yup
06:16:43  <ajmiles> i'm surprised there aren't more graphs/tables of information in openttd, a given game must be a gold mine (forgive the pun) of information
06:17:35  <ajmiles> but I guess if a lot of it is never stored it might be a bit tricky
06:18:27  <ajmiles> i've often wanted to see a breakdown of profit by cargo type
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08:10:59  <Terkhen> good morning
08:11:42  <Forked> morning :)
08:13:27  <sparr> somewhere
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10:24:20  <edeca> Morning indeed
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10:32:30  <edeca> Heh, is this a newgrf bug if this is displayed in an aircraft's information: "150 crates of goodsAllow building very long bridges: undefined string"
10:33:08  <Rubidium> possibly
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10:37:43  <planetmaker> very easy to achieve that error :-) A typo in the newgrf code is sufficient
10:41:22  <edeca> I've never seen it before, it made me chuckle
10:42:08  <planetmaker> which newgrf is it WAS alpha?
10:42:56  <edeca> It's the aircraft replacement set, but I forget which one
10:43:10  <edeca> av8
10:43:18  <planetmaker> you could then do them a favour and file a bug report at
10:43:25  <planetmaker> oh, hm. Dunno about that :-)
10:43:34  <planetmaker> it's pikka's newgrf, is it?
10:44:14  <edeca> Yep yep
10:44:24  <edeca> I've never seen the world airline set, thanks!
10:44:41  <edeca> Is it possible to show the shortcut keys for commands on the right click menu?
10:44:51  <edeca> I mean, when you right click on a button
10:50:53  <planetmaker> it is possible. Just make a better translation to include it.
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10:54:42  <edeca> Ah, it's in the translation.  Would it be an improvement that would be wanted though?
11:02:15  <planetmaker> well. If it's English it's obviously not a translation. But... well. Depends upon newgrf author whether it's wante
11:02:17  <planetmaker> d
11:03:59  <edeca> I meant for the game, not a newgrf
11:04:44  <planetmaker> well. If the string is newgrf specific, it should supply the translation itself.
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11:12:48  <andythenorth> woah there spartacus
11:13:26  * andythenorth needs to bravely enter the world of industry tiles
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11:18:42  <mib_1ymjuo> hiho, i have a question: how to i finish my openttd game (single mode)
11:18:43  <mib_1ymjuo> ?
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11:20:21  <KingJ> When you reach 2050, but you can contine after that
11:21:02  <mib_1ymjuo> thank you, i finished 2050 but nothing happend
11:22:42  <mib_1ymjuo> thank you1
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11:27:35  <Terkhen> good luck andythenorth
11:28:09  <andythenorth> trying to figure out how to code a fishing harbour (industry) that transcends the coastline
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11:51:21  <andythenorth> hunting
11:51:49  <andythenorth> oil refineries must be built within n tiles of the coast.  I was hoping that behaviour was exposed in nfo
11:51:54  <andythenorth> but I can't find a property for it
11:52:09  <andythenorth> I can use the industry construction callback, but I was hoping for a short cut :)
11:53:09  <andythenorth>
11:54:28  <Ammler> andythenorth: doesn't that apply to the default refinery only?
11:54:36  <andythenorth> possibly
11:54:50  <andythenorth> maybe I'll just write the construction callback code
11:54:52  <Ammler> iirc, ECS does place those on the whole map
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11:57:47  <planetmaker> I guess it's possible to write a newgrf also in the form of
11:57:49  <planetmaker> -1 * 0  00 0B \b01 01 ID 0F \b1 // changing one property of one cargo: weight of one unit
11:57:50  <planetmaker> -1 * 0  00 0B \b01 01 ID 10 \b0 // changing one property of one cargo: penalty times
11:57:52  <planetmaker> for with ID being the same in two lines. And both lines modify the cargo so that it has both changes in the end, right?
11:58:30  <planetmaker> ^ andythenorth ?
11:59:33  <andythenorth> yes
11:59:41  <andythenorth> commonly we wrap that in an action 7
11:59:55  <andythenorth> (to modify properties conditionally)
12:01:18  <planetmaker> well, yes, maybe :-) I still don't want to discared action6 :-)
12:02:09  <andythenorth> :)
12:02:22  <andythenorth> Action 6 looks like it will involve a lot hex maths
12:02:32  <andythenorth> but maybe I'm misreading the wiki
12:02:56  <planetmaker> yes... maybe. But I *think* that we could just write previously our own non-public grfparameter and use that.
12:03:22  <planetmaker> and then we can re-use that parameter. But not sure that makes sense
12:03:38  <andythenorth> it makes sense
12:03:47  <andythenorth> I don't know if it's possible (or easiest)
12:03:55  <planetmaker> that I don't know either.
12:03:59  <andythenorth> Action 7 route is brutal and simple :D
12:04:07  <planetmaker> indeed
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12:04:34  <planetmaker> action7 works in any case, I think
12:04:36  <andythenorth> I'll paste something
12:06:29  <andythenorth>
12:07:22  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^^   I think the templating would be quite minimal on that route.
12:07:38  <andythenorth> templating almost not needed, except it would help prevent typos etc
12:09:44  <planetmaker> well... currently the template are per cargo. and not per cargo property. That's quite a big change.
12:10:00  <planetmaker> I propose to rather put the action7 sequence in a template itself and call that from the cargo template.
12:10:32  <andythenorth> yes that would make sense
12:10:35  <planetmaker> even on the cost that the action7 sequence is included (industry number) times into the NFO. But we have to take care of it only once
12:10:38  <andythenorth> I think it makes more action 7s?
12:10:50  <andythenorth> but that isn't a problem with templating
12:10:55  <planetmaker> exactly
12:11:06  <planetmaker> but it's not nice. But it works for now and doesn't hurt
12:11:13  <planetmaker> just makes the grf a bit bigger.
12:11:17  <andythenorth> how to structure storing the variables?
12:11:44  <planetmaker> you don't have to store any var, if you go for the action7 approach...
12:12:07  <planetmaker> just always check the grf param and include the proper action0 with the property/ies you query
12:12:08  <planetmaker> or?
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12:12:48  <planetmaker> let me paste something :-)
12:12:51  <andythenorth> cool
12:13:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r18651 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.hpp: -Fix [FS#3438](r18518): [NoAI] When AI tried to create NO_UNLOAD order, GOTO_NEAREST_DEPOT order was created instead
12:13:33  <Ammler> well, you should also take care of performance, i.e. ECS uses a lot more CPU
12:13:59  <planetmaker> that's a one-time only thing.
12:14:09  <andythenorth> Ammler: what he said
12:14:19  <Ammler> ok :-)
12:14:27  <andythenorth> Although I am working on something else that will have performance concerns
12:14:33  <andythenorth> I will need help with that!  (later)
12:16:00  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
12:16:00  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 14 hours, 47 minutes, and 1 second ago: <frosch123> wito, george: <- looks intentional
12:16:09  <andythenorth> :|
12:16:25  <andythenorth> I need to know how expensive cb 28 is
12:16:44  <andythenorth>
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12:17:21  <carstep> Hi
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12:17:42  <carstep> does anybody got the message that AI is unable to load?
12:17:52  <carstep> 1.0.0 beta
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12:19:29  <carstep> is everybody away?
12:19:45  <SmatZ> no
12:19:49  <carstep> ok
12:20:10  <carstep> I'm very new to this, I used the 0.5 one whithout any problems
12:20:27  <andythenorth> I get AI debug message in 0.7.4 at the start of the game
12:20:33  <carstep> checked out that the openttd group has been doing a great job
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12:21:24  <SmatZ> carstep: does the "AI Debug" window open?
12:21:27  <SmatZ> ...
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12:24:40  <dragonhorseboy> hey
12:27:10  <planetmaker> andythenorth: <-- my idea how to solve it. Using action7s
12:28:29  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess it's alright. Industries are not built every tick
12:28:35  <planetmaker> (concerning CB 28)
12:29:03  <planetmaker> I just have a request: don't make it restrictive. That sucks majorly
12:29:19  <planetmaker> Especially (within given distance of town of size...). I hate that :-)
12:29:34  <planetmaker> It's a pain if you have bigger towns, thus basically fails there.
12:30:15  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'll look at that paste, thanks
12:30:22  <andythenorth> in respect of restrictions
12:30:29  <andythenorth> most will be very unrestricted
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12:30:42  <andythenorth> I don't like 'cannot be built near similar industry' etc
12:30:52  <planetmaker> yes, also that is a pain.
12:31:09  <andythenorth> actually, this morning I added to my todo list changing the Bakery and Brewery to be less restrictive
12:31:10  <dragonhorseboy> andy well I kinda think its a double edge sword
12:31:22  <planetmaker> I think the only thing needed is like "harbour at shore" or "bank within town".
12:31:22  <dragonhorseboy> you wouldn't want to build a coal mine only 4 tiles far from a powerplant?
12:31:27  <planetmaker> and similar easy cases
12:31:38  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I don't mind that
12:31:45  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: of course. why not?
12:31:46  <andythenorth> just run a bulldozer :D
12:32:02  <planetmaker> it's even realistic
12:32:07  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker if the powerplant is right next to the coal mine why does it even need your business? :)
12:32:35  <andythenorth> well yes, there is that
12:32:38  <planetmaker> you provide the cars / transport. Even 100m may be important.
12:32:44  <andythenorth> and then there is the overlapping station problem
12:32:50  <andythenorth> which means you can full load both ways
12:32:52  <andythenorth> kind of a cheat
12:32:56  <planetmaker> and if you don't like it, dragonhorseboy, don't ship that 2 tiles distance
12:33:01  * dragonhorseboy would rather do at least 12+ tiles even for horses
12:33:15  <planetmaker> and it wouldn't pay anyway
12:33:15  <dragonhorseboy> that one :)
12:33:34  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I see your point
12:33:43  <andythenorth> but coding to prevent it is a headache
12:33:50  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth there is one thing I rather hate tho
12:34:07  <andythenorth> yes?
12:34:29  <dragonhorseboy> steel mill in pikka's and certain chemical industries in ecs-chemical-vector ... these thing are so effing difficult to keep balanced without messing up your network's traffic
12:34:50  <andythenorth> FIRS won't have balancing
12:34:55  <roboboy> yeah
12:34:57  <dragonhorseboy> I prefer not to have to worry how much of A I need compared to B just to be able to get C output
12:35:03  <andythenorth> I've thought about it for Steel Mill and Cement Plant
12:35:09  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth...hmm nice
12:35:16  <andythenorth> Balancing would be more realistic, but it's a headache
12:35:26  <andythenorth> OzTrans has it right with industries in CanSet 3
12:35:30  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I always find coal to be a lot more plenty than ore for starters
12:36:01  <andythenorth> CanSet 3 metal plant has an (unrealistic) 'reserve' of coal, which makes for better gameplay
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12:36:12  <andythenorth> I'll figure something similar out for FIRS
12:36:29  <dragonhorseboy> and the chemical vectors .. well .. lets say you need to do raw1>raw2 then raw2>raw3 then raw4+raw3=output ... I never could ever get it to work nicely at all
12:36:53  <dragonhorseboy> at least ecs thankfully is made that you can only use the vectors you want to so I've always left the chemical one out
12:37:12  <dragonhorseboy> never used machinery too .. seem a bit odd to me
12:38:14  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth .. one of the silly thing with pikka's coal reserve .. is the coal mine almost always goes down to <80 tonnes output (even if it used to be 640 tonnes etc) and stay there all the times even if less than 20% of the reserve had been used up
12:38:52  <dragonhorseboy> it was a bit of a headache in jonty's IS2 game .. I had to pull up most of my rails four times before I finally decided to stop bother doing coal business anymore because it was seeming too 'unstable'
12:38:56  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: have you tried FIRS?
12:39:08  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth .. no .. was about to go check it out in a sec heh
12:39:34  <andythenorth> it's work in progress, but a lot of it is playable
12:39:53  <andythenorth> some industries aren't coded, and there are some weird production values
12:39:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you really going to make primary industries limited? :-(
12:39:59  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no
12:40:00  <andythenorth> never
12:40:07  <planetmaker> I hate to constantly re-build my network... good :-) *relieved*
12:40:27  <andythenorth> but remember we are planning to close industry types on mass with different 'eras'
12:41:28  <planetmaker> well... my idea back then was basically rather an upgrade.
12:42:24  <dragonhorseboy> I think I'll stick to default industries (its set to 'very low' anyway) for now .. but I'll see about FIRS another time ok? ;)
12:42:26  <planetmaker> hm... what about building it (preferentially) adjacent to the old type... and close the old one, if new type is adjacent (for certain definitions of 'adjacent')
12:42:54  <andythenorth> the ones that would close include: blacksmith, windmill (grain mill), and guano mine
12:42:57  <andythenorth> most won't close
12:43:06  <dragonhorseboy> nice to have a milk cargo source .. hopefully nars/canset would soon provide the 50's milk wagons to transport these perhaps (well they looked like half height boxcars)
12:44:49  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: seen the FIRS site?
12:45:01  <dragonhorseboy> yeah already there
12:46:23  <andythenorth> list of what's coded:
12:46:50  <andythenorth> or a better one here:
12:47:00  <andythenorth> most of what isn't coded isn't essential
12:47:18  <andythenorth> try it in a week maybe...I'll have finished some more things by then :D
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13:04:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18652 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp misc_gui.cpp): -Fix: glitches due to having the wrong bounding boxes for the face widgets
13:05:00  <peter1138> andythenorth, "en masse" ;)
13:05:34  <andythenorth> brain = fail  :O
13:05:50  <andythenorth> also: pedant award :D
13:05:57  <peter1138> :D
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13:16:25  <andythenorth> I need to build an industry that transcends the coast
13:16:28  <andythenorth> using cb 28
13:16:34  <andythenorth> which is going to be more optimal
13:16:44  <andythenorth> building on water and checking for coast tiles
13:16:52  <andythenorth> or building on land and checking for water tiles
13:16:54  <andythenorth> :D
13:16:55  <andythenorth> ?
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14:32:25  <Sacro>
14:32:36  <Sacro> can I provide a gramatically correct bit?
14:32:45  <Sacro> there's a fair few grammer/spelling issues
14:34:02  <Rubidium> yes, preferably as a diff to svn:// :)
14:34:45  <Elessar> Hello.
14:35:50  <Elessar> I saw that OpenSFX is distributed under CC Sampling Plus.
14:36:15  <Sacro> Rubidium: perhaps i shall
14:36:28  <Elessar> That licence will be source of problems for it distribution by free distro, as it forbids somes derivative works.
14:36:34  <Elessar> Is that wanted?
14:36:58  <planetmaker> You're free to provide sounds released under the GPL license, Elessar
14:37:12  <planetmaker> And make a sound set which is then under GPL
14:37:28  <Elessar> I know I am, I am just not an artist, I was just asking about OpenSFX.
14:37:31  <Rubidium> Elessar: no, but *all* but one samples are coming from a repository that provides them under CC Sampling Plus, the other is under public domain
14:38:03  <Elessar> Okay, that is the explaination, then. I understand.
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14:38:42  <Rubidium> anyhow, if distributions are really picky they can always distribute "NoSound" and let people download OpenSFX from within the game if they want to have actual sounds
14:39:22  <Elessar> Yes, that is what shall be done, I guess.
14:39:48  <Elessar> Maybe it would be worth mentionning the fact that the licence is inherited from somewhere else?
14:40:32  <Sacro> mmm
14:40:37  <Sacro> might have to write some packages for ArchLinux
14:40:47  <Sacro> perhaps openttd-opengfx and openttd-opensfx
14:41:24  * peter1138 ponders restarting his server
14:41:25  <peter1138> 2057 :s
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15:05:16  <PeterT> anyone know what hs.dat is for?
15:05:27  <Ammler> don't most distros have a special "non-free" repo?
15:06:19  <peter1138> highscores
15:07:42  <Ammler> hmm, CC Sampling Plus doesn't allow derivate work?
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15:13:26  <PeterT> Thanks peter1138
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15:16:17  <SpComb^> yay, got a friend first-time-addicted to OpenTTD once I mentioned the free graphics
15:16:34  <Luukland> :S
15:17:11  <PeterT> Lol
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15:23:53  <Zuu> It was suggested (i think it was Ammler) in another irc channel that OpenSFX really should be renamed to FreeSFX because of the current license.
15:24:49  <Luukland> lol @ PeterT at your comment on the banned on the ttforum :P
15:25:06  <PeterT> Hmm?
15:25:07  <PeterT> post?
15:25:20  <Luukland> Yeah, regarding the question; What version are u running :P
15:25:52  <PeterT> Wait, are you laughing at me, or with me?
15:26:00  <Luukland> with you :)
15:26:03  <PeterT> ahh
15:26:11  <PeterT> sarcasm machine is borked
15:26:40  <PeterT> why was he banned, anyway?
15:31:38  <peter1138> why not?
15:32:03  <PeterT> For fun?
15:32:42  <Luukland> I dont know, we have been running the server for 2 weeks now
15:32:45  <Muxy> for life
15:32:52  <Luukland> and already 60 banned ppl or so
15:33:15  <Luukland> some servers use 3 strike = out, we use 1 strike = out
15:35:10  <Luukland> Most of them probably get banned for "massive terraforming"
15:35:22  <SpComb^> define
15:35:36  <PeterT> oh, my trains need to go through montains
15:36:13  <PeterT> that kind
15:36:41  <Luukland> well, a bit more severe
15:36:43  <SpComb^> just drag and drop your track in a straight line over whatever happens to be in the way, I'm sure the trains won't mind going up and down fifty times
15:37:01  <Luukland> like "I want to flatten the map, and write my name in it and then leave"
15:37:09  <Luukland> That kind of terraforming
15:37:56  <Luukland> Or just the usual: "I like water everywhere"
15:42:33  <Luukland> but luckely this kind of abuse is getting less every day since the introduction of the campaign, which means I have some spare time again :)
15:43:01  <PeterT> You said you had "documentation on how to get off the ban"
15:43:04  <PeterT> where can I find this?
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15:43:56  <PeterT> Luukland: There is a typo on this page:
15:43:58  * SpComb^ is happy playing alone, or private co-op
15:44:04  <PeterT> "Still if you might freel unjustifiedly"
15:44:24  <PeterT> "Still if you might freel unjustifiedly"
15:46:03  <Luukland> Ah
15:46:10  <Luukland> thx
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15:47:53  <PeterT> and what kind of rule is "no one-way trains"?
15:48:03  <PeterT> wth does that even mean xD
15:48:37  <Luukland> Ah, for that I must refer you to the page of the competition, gimme 10 secs
15:49:24  <PeterT> Aparrently restrictions to building != competition
15:49:58  <PeterT> It's been 10 seconds...
15:50:15  <peter1138> # Maximum of 1 company per primary industry (coal, ore, oil, etc.)
15:50:19  <peter1138> ^ pathetic rule
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15:50:56  <PeterT> That one removes most competition
15:51:12  <Luukland> PeterT, can't find it but it is quite simple: You buy train, let it make cash, sell it at the end, and build a new train at the start, thus saving journey time
15:52:02  <PeterT> why not? let them do what they want
15:52:16  <PeterT> i'm sure most of us have enough of a life not to do that
15:52:34  <Luukland> Indeed most of you, some ppl go mad when it is about exp
15:54:44  <Luukland> peter1138, might I ask your opinion about the current cargo algorithm regarding 2 competing stations?
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16:01:26  <peter1138> ...
16:02:08  <Luukland> is that your final answer ^^
16:03:11  <andythenorth> peter1138: how about this one: I want to deliver FIRS engineering supplies to a station that has two overlapping industries and have it split the load between them
16:03:21  <andythenorth> (substitute cargo x for engineering supplies)
16:03:39  <Rubidium> Zuu: but OpenSFX is less free than OpenGFX in the sense of "free as in speech"
16:03:47  <andythenorth> right now I have to faff about with a lot trucks and feeder services
16:04:04  * andythenorth remembers...trucks are good
16:04:20  <andythenorth> but 'last mile' feeders that lose money are not
16:04:46  <Zuu> Rubidium: That is true, perhaps FreeAsInBeerSFX then :-p
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16:06:33  <Coco-Banana-Man> [17:03:29] <andythenorth> peter1138: how about this one: I want to deliver FIRS engineering supplies to a station that has two overlapping industries and have it split the load between them  <--- btw: Does CargoDist do something like that? Or does it only choose a specific station?
16:07:03  <andythenorth> cargodist is stations only isn't it?  I haven't tried it but I follow the thread...
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16:10:55  <Zuu> andythenorth: What would it be more than stations?
16:11:10  <andythenorth> specific tiles
16:11:16  <andythenorth> which as far as I know would be insane
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16:12:27  <Zuu> Can't give a 100 sure answer on that, since I have neither followed that project close enought.
16:21:27  <peter1138> simutrans manages that
16:21:53  <peter1138> tile to tile would be pretty neat
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16:26:56  <PeterT> Luukland advertises his servers as if nobody has heard of
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16:31:54  <Ammler> Zuu: / Rubidium, isn't open more free? ;-)
16:32:20  <PeterT> Why can't we just agree on a simple license?
16:32:23  <PeterT> GPL v3?
16:32:39  <PeterT> (I only mention that one because it's the only one I know of :-))
16:32:58  <Ammler> and already not compatible with openttd :-P
16:33:45  <PeterT> Ammler: What do you prefer as a license?
16:33:53  <peter1138> license for what?
16:33:54  <Ammler> no colors
16:34:17  <Kovensky> ISC
16:34:18  <PeterT> peter1138: the music replacment project
16:34:26  <Ammler> I wrote it there...
16:34:41  <PeterT> I don't have time to read all that license stuff
16:34:49  <PeterT> It doesn't even interest me
16:34:52  <Ammler> then don't ask...
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16:35:05  <peter1138> quite
16:35:24  <Kovensky> WTFPL
16:35:49  <Kovensky> text of the ISC: "Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies."
16:36:24  <PeterT> with or without?
16:37:16  <Kovensky> basically, just do wtf you want with it as long as you tell everyone they also can do wtf they want with it AND keep the copyright notice
16:37:46  <peter1138> wtf wtf wtf
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16:42:43  <muszek> hi... quick question: how fast does the time pass (in a regular mode) in openttd?  I.E. how many minutes of real time is one year in game?
16:44:25  <Ammler> ~14
16:44:49  <peter1138> 13.5
16:46:38  <muszek> thanks
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17:06:00  <teshi|work> (unless you've got so much going on in the game that your processor bogs down, but that's neither here nor there because you can't get any extra work done during those delays)
17:09:00  <sparr> 13.5 is such a strange number
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17:11:35  <Ammler> one tic - 30ms, 74tics = 1day
17:11:48  <Ammler> he, not sure...
17:11:53  <PeterT> @calc 74*30
17:11:53  <DorpsGek> PeterT: 2220
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17:12:05  <PeterT> @calc 2220/60
17:12:05  <DorpsGek> PeterT: 37
17:12:16  <SpComb^> 2220ms/day
17:12:42  <PeterT> @calc 2220/24
17:12:42  <DorpsGek> PeterT: 92.5
17:13:29  <Ammler> @calc 0.03*74*365/60
17:13:29  <DorpsGek> Ammler: 13.505
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18:26:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18653 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3442]: when trying to attach a wagon to an existing free wagon chain, don't attach it to itself
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18:39:05  <andythenorth> midi files are pretty much their own source, no?
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18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r18654 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 27 changes by motorolavn, nglekhoi
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18:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not neecessarily. if you use a sheet music program like capella, then that is the source
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18:51:01  <andythenorth> interesting point
18:51:18  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but is it the prefered format for modifications?
18:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> per interpretation of the GPL, the source is whatever you make manual changes to
18:52:15  <Rubidium> don't forget the "machine readable" part
18:55:54  <Eddi|zuHause> capella has its own storage format, that includes more than simple midi
18:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it can import and export midi, though.
18:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes it comparable to hand-crafted commented NFO or autogenerated grfcodec-NFO
18:58:25  <blathijs> PeterT: You mentioned something about a music replacement project, what was that about?
18:58:31  <andythenorth> well I am mostly staying out of the music licensing question....but I don't see why it can't be GPL
18:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause> gpl for midi music is less problematic than for graphics
19:00:58  <blathijs> Unless you really want to keep your stuff from becoming closed, something MIT-ish or BSD-ish could be easier.
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19:01:50  <Rubidium> blathijs: problem with 'sound' people is that they generally don't want their stuff to end up in commercial stuff
19:02:32  <Rubidium> so I fear the freeer the license the smaller the chance they want to 'donate'
19:02:35  <sparr> is there any way to prevent another player from claiming land immediately after you terraform it?
19:02:48  <Rubidium> sparr: single player without AI
19:03:00  <MyCatSchemes> Doesn't planting signposts on it work?
19:03:06  <MyCatSchemes> The, uh, purchase land feature.
19:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: buy the land before terraforming
19:04:03  <sparr> s/land/water/
19:04:26  <MyCatSchemes> Oh. Yes, you have a problem.
19:04:34  <sparr> is there any way to prevent another player from claiming land immediately after you create it from water via terraforming?
19:04:41  <MyCatSchemes> Use the keyboard shortcut, purchase immediately. :)
19:04:49  <andythenorth> when it comes to licensing work done for fun, some people measure loss in a strange way
19:05:13  <sparr> MyCatSchemes: am I mistaken or can you only purchase one tile at a time?
19:05:33  <sparr> andythenorth: almost all my photos online are licensed CC-BY-SA and CC-BY-NC
19:06:34  <sparr> MyCatSchemes: seems like they could just claim one tile and you'd be screwed
19:06:39  <sparr> long before you could claim many tiles
19:06:53  <sparr> unless you are proposing TF-claim-TF-claim-TF-claim, which is ridiculous
19:06:59  <MyCatSchemes> Can't you click-and-drag the purchase tool?
19:07:16  <Rubidium> sparr: if that's the way they want to compete, you just shouldn't play on that server (if the admin doesn't want to do something about it)
19:07:42  <MyCatSchemes> I didn't say it was a good solution. But flicking between 'q' and whichever key it is for purchase land will come close to working.
19:11:37  <worldemar> hi there...
19:11:53  <worldemar> i am testing openttd-1.0.0 beta1
19:12:23  <worldemar> is there a fast way to increase font size?
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19:13:02  <worldemar> as i can see, fonts for russian and japanese are significantly larger than english, but i want to use english interface...
19:13:55  <Rubidium> change the font and font size in openttd.cfg
19:14:44  <worldemar> Rubidium: thanks alot
19:14:59  <worldemar> (how i didn't looked there?!)
19:21:15  <ajmiles> what text do those options affect? the entire game?
19:21:52  <ajmiles> i can't see any difference when I make the numbers in the cfg larger
19:22:18  <Alberth> all texts
19:22:31  <Rubidium> ajmiles: all text, but *only* when a different font than the default font is used
19:22:36  <ajmiles> ah
19:23:14  <ajmiles> yup, specifying a font makes it work, thanks
19:24:14  <worldemar> niiice
19:24:32  <worldemar> now we are ready for new year party haha
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19:26:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18655 /trunk/media/ (openttd.256.png openttd.svg):
19:26:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: the icon that is supposed to be 256x256 pixels wasn't 256x256 pixels
19:26:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Add: the 'source' for the icons
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20:53:15  <Vitas> hi people I need some advice please
20:53:24  <Vitas> how do I get the ip address of a server I am on?
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20:54:32  <Luukland> in the join screen it is always visible
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21:02:32  <andythenorth> I am being beaten up by nfo again....trying to code an action 7 checking the value of a parameter
21:02:37  <Vitas> it is pointless if it is in the join screen when I am joined already ;-)
21:02:44  <Vitas> command status does not work in console
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21:10:51  <andythenorth> peter1138: (sorry to bother) can you help with a bad action 7?
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21:16:38  <jvlomax> calling out for music composers! if anyone wants to help compose music for OTTD, check out
21:16:53  <jvlomax> we need YOU!
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21:23:39  <Noldo> hmm, composing
21:26:11  <sparr> is there a way to "outbid" another player on buying land?
21:26:24  <sparr> or any other mechanic for getting around aggressive land purchase?
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21:30:12  <sparr> I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that public multiplayer is a waste of time.  There are so many ways that one player can screw with another
21:30:46  <ashb> yeah
21:33:10  <Noldo> it only works if there is active administrating
21:35:24  <sparr> Noldo: which 20 years of online multiplayer games should show is a bad idea.
21:36:01  <sparr> costs me 0M to get around one griefer's 0k land purchase
21:38:59  * sparr sits idly until the next coop game starts
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21:44:26  <Dreamxtreme> hmm
21:44:42  <Dreamxtreme> anyone fancy a coop of England and wales SCN ??
21:45:49  <sparr> Dreamxtreme: I haven't done coop other than #openttdcoop, really big networks...  what is the typical goal in a small coop?
21:46:16  <Dreamxtreme> idk lol
21:46:22  <Dreamxtreme> i just fancy a MP game
21:46:27  * Dreamxtreme is proper bored
21:46:29  * peter1138 grumbles at mass-terraformers
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21:47:01  * andythenorth grumbles at nfo...time to stop I guess
21:47:33  <sparr> peter1138: what game are you seeing mass tf in?
21:57:52  <peter1138> nah, it's not really
21:58:01  <peter1138> i just like hills to stay as they were ;p
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22:05:34  <sparr> i just flattened about 10% of the map on the maxttd(?) server
22:05:44  <sparr> well, a bit ago now
22:05:56  <sparr> had to, to get around someone who was blocking my building with land purchases
22:06:25  *** nicfer1 [~nicolas@] has joined #openttd
22:06:39  <nicfer1> hi
22:08:19  <nicfer1> one question, how can I configure a second instalation of openttd in my home folder to read the data files from another location than the data\ folder?
22:08:33  <Neon> Can anyone help me opening a dedicated server on debian lenny 32 bit?
22:09:20  <Neon> Beginning with what do I have to download? :/
22:09:25  <Neon> Just OpenTTD?
22:09:45  <Neon> Or is there a special dedicated server application?
22:12:43  <Rubidium> you can download the 32 bits lenny package from the website; that supports a dedicated server, but it requires some libraries that would mean you have to include X. So the 'best' way is to compile a dedicated server yourself; ./configure --enable-dedicated
22:13:53  <Neon> Will I have to do something with X? It's a root server.
22:14:14  <Rubidium> nicfer1: in what way "from another location"? What kind of directory are you thinking of?
22:14:25  <Rubidium> Neon: if you compile yourself you don't need X
22:15:30  <nicfer1> ln -s did the trick
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22:17:12  <lazy_bum> Hello.
22:17:43  <Rubidium> not too lazy though :)
22:18:40  <lazy_bum> I've made updated ebuilds for Gentoo Linux and now trying to fix my TODO list with open{g,s}fx from teh source.
22:19:00  <lazy_bum> But it ends with an ugly error about grfcodec not found.
22:19:10  <Rubidium> so package grfcodec too
22:19:12  <Rubidium> and nforenum
22:19:13  <planetmaker> lazy_bum: that's a build requirement
22:19:15  <Rubidium> and catcodec
22:19:20  <planetmaker> ^
22:19:22  <Rubidium> (latter only for OpenSFX)
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22:19:58  <lazy_bum> Is there a package with grfcodec (the source would be the best "Gentoo way" ;).
22:20:13  <Rubidium>
22:20:21  <planetmaker> svn://
22:20:27  <planetmaker> svn://
22:20:31  <planetmaker> but... not a package
22:20:42  <lazy_bum> Oh. Damn, I was looking at
22:21:10  <Rubidium> that's the same, although quite horribly stale
22:21:15  <planetmaker> Rubi's link is the one with the official nightlies
22:22:04  <Rubidium> planetmaker: if you abbreviate my name, do it correctly... as learnt at school :)
22:22:13  <planetmaker> :-P
22:22:28  <planetmaker> I just wonder whether you also have a highlight on Rb ;-)
22:22:40  <lazy_bum> Thanks. (:
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22:22:57  <Rubidium> planetmaker: no, but neither on any other abbreviation/typoed variant
22:23:25  <ashb> doesn't every irc client have tab completion on names?
22:23:50  <planetmaker> well, so?
22:23:50  <lazy_bum> Oh, btw TrueBrains comment on "our" bugzilla. "2) OpenSFX requires >= 1.0.0" - this will work with 1.0.0_beta1, right? (:
22:23:57  <Rubidium> ashb: probably not, but most have... but do people know that?
22:24:07  <planetmaker> lazy_bum: yes
22:24:21  <ashb> planetmaker: so ru<tab> is shorter than Rubi :)
22:24:40  <PeterT> <blathijs> PeterT: You mentioned something about a music replacement project, what was that about? <--
22:24:49  <planetmaker> well, it was not my intention to save a keystroke. Rather to avoid unnecessary highlight
22:25:26  <planetmaker> I know well of tab completion. Despite that it's sometimes even faster to write the name just using the normal keys. Fingers are faster there
22:26:14  <Rubidium> definitely true for writing planetmaker ;) cause pm gets confusing...
22:26:24  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
22:27:04  <planetmaker> pm is actually my primary nick. But it got too confusing ;-)
22:29:51  <Rubidium> yeah, sending a pm to pm in the pm
22:30:25  <planetmaker> "in the pm" doesn't parse for me
22:31:14  <planetmaker> or does that work in English as description for the time?
22:31:26  <Rubidium> that I hope it does :)
22:31:52  <planetmaker> :-) I just never saw it used in this particular way
22:32:54  <Rubidium> <- hmm... what happens when releasing a 1.0.0-beta1 :)
22:35:48  <planetmaker> impressive :-) quite a bump, eh?
22:36:34  <planetmaker> what's the "usual" bump after release of a new testing candidate of a new version?
22:37:06  <Rubidium> just look at February/March
22:37:15  <Rubidium> then the peak at April is 0.7.0
22:37:48  <planetmaker> oh... it's one year more :-D
22:38:13  <Rubidium> and the subsequent peaks are 0.7.1 and further
22:39:01  <planetmaker> funnily they get much less traffic... though the latest release of a branch should always be most stable
22:39:42  <Rubidium> so during betas most of the points are above the 'average'
22:40:08  <Rubidium> but now they are incredibly far above the average
22:40:21  <planetmaker> taking that out, it's still a net gain of 33% or so
22:40:30  <planetmaker> 2000 vs. 1500
22:40:52  <Rubidium> yup
22:41:12  <Rubidium> probably a bit more than 2000, but yes something in that order
22:42:00  <Rubidium> anyhow, the 0.7.!0 releases are probably not that feature rich and they don't experience bugs so they don't migrate
22:42:30  <planetmaker> yes, true. You only update, if you have trouble then.
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22:42:50  <planetmaker> hm... our devzone traffic increased by 180GB in the last week...
22:43:18  <planetmaker>
22:43:50  <planetmaker> alone on the 24th there were 138GB :-)
22:45:10  <planetmaker> so... 9000 downloads of OpenGFX and OpenSFX that day
22:45:50  <planetmaker> if both got equally pulled. Which is to be assumed IMO
22:46:18  <Rubidium> and that excludes whatever is installed via the Windows installer :)
22:47:11  <planetmaker> that goes via your servers?
22:47:16  <Rubidium> yup
22:47:30  <planetmaker> quite a bit addional traffic :-)
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22:47:42  <Rubidium> definitely :)
22:48:03  <glx> 7zip-ed but still :)
22:48:24  <planetmaker> well, we have much bandwidth still. You could re-direct them to the devzone, too
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22:48:40  <Neon> min_active_clients specifies how many playing clients are needed for unpausing the game, doesn't it?
22:48:47  <glx> yes
22:48:48  <PeterT> yes, Neon
22:48:52  <Neon> Thanks.
22:48:56  <glx> but only for dedicated servers
22:50:08  <Neon> Of course
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22:52:03  <planetmaker> hm... half the traffic is from a ukranian server...
22:52:36  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I find the spikes you're having odd, especially the 140 GB on a day spike
22:52:54  <planetmaker> yes
22:53:07  <Rubidium> the 8 GB average I can believe, the 140 GB download I simply can't
22:53:09  <planetmaker> that's probably this one...
22:55:22  <Rubidium> 18% opengfx vs 6% opensfx (hits per referers), so opengfx is downloaded 3 times more although due to the filesizes the bandwidth usage is probably the same
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23:32:11  <Terkhen> good night
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23:36:47  <Eddi|zuHause> <sparr> I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that public multiplayer is a waste of time.  There are so many ways that one player can screw with another <-- like i said before, it is absolutely impossible to solve that by software. the only solution is an active moderator who can kick such people
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23:44:14  <PeterT> Seems like you OpenTTD Developers have been playing a very nastly trick on us -
23:45:09  <glx> I'd say wrong palette
23:45:13  <planetmaker> seems like someone is using the wrong palette
23:45:41  <Ammler> opengfx should solve it...
23:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a jpeg!
23:46:20  <Ammler> how is it possible to have wrong palette?
23:46:20  <_ln> and jpegs don't have a palette -> problem solved!
23:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: was asking myself that exact same question
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23:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> something insane like editing the .obg
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