Config
Log for #openttd on 5th January 2010:
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00:20:07  <PeterT> How do you get a picture of an industry to look like this: http://wiki.openttd.org/images/6/62/Lumbermill.png ?
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00:31:48  <fjb> Load it into gimp?
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00:43:16  <PeterT> looks nicer with an image; http://wiki.openttd.org/Sugar_Mine
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00:58:42  <Terkhen> good night
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01:00:39  <PeterT> Night
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01:22:24  <dragonhorseboy> just had to ask a quick question if noone minds .. how much input and/or output can one single town building have?
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02:09:49  <sparr> how does a train with no orders decide which way to go at a split?
02:10:32  <PeterT> penalties?
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02:49:02  <glx> sparr: random
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02:58:22  <NoFace> hello
02:58:42  <NoFace> anyone around?  I'm looking for some strategy links
02:58:59  <NoFace> specifically to do with train length and servicing industries the "right" amount
02:59:17  <NoFace> like whether it's better to sit a massive train in there picking up everything, or have a bunch of tiny trains constantly moving through
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03:08:31  <PeterT> NoFace:
03:09:03  <PeterT> NoFace: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics
03:10:06  <PeterT> NoFace: Specifically this section: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Industry_production
03:11:55  <NoFace> thanks Peter, I only just found that page and am slowly reading through it :P
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03:12:21  <NoFace> the station rating sections seems to imply that advertising campaigns and statues can result in greater industry output
03:12:28  <NoFace> is that correct? or is it only for passengers?
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03:20:41  <PeterT> NoFace: Advertising Campaigns boost the station rating
03:21:03  <PeterT> which in-turn gives you a better chance of getting more of the product from an industry
03:21:08  <PeterT> the statues, not sure
03:21:13  <PeterT> I don't think so, NoFace
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05:35:34  <sparrL> very annoying habit on the ottd wiki...
05:35:39  <sparrL> the first paragraph says X
05:35:52  <sparrL> then two pages down you get "as of rNNNNN...  not X"
05:36:15  <sparrL> where NNNNN might be years old
05:37:22  <roboboy> then add the tag to say that the page needs updating
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05:49:35  <sparrL> it doesn't need updating
05:49:40  <sparrL> it was updated last time the behavior changed
05:49:45  <sparrL> the process of updating needs to be changed
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06:28:37  <Rubidium> sparrL: the problem is that at the moment something gets changed it takes up to a year before the change ends up in the stable versions. As such you can't change the whole page straight away.
06:31:01  <Rubidium> feel free to reorder the pages so it mentions the old behaviour at the bottom though
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06:38:37  <Eoin> wow
06:38:41  <Eoin> ive stayed up all night
06:38:51  <Eoin> playing ottd :|
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06:47:11  <peter1138> morning
06:48:51  <Eoin> ooh your up early
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06:51:10  <Eoin> anyone wanna play some cargodist?
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07:09:49  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:34:32  <bartavelle> hello
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09:44:08  <George> peter1138: New GRF inFS#3477 provided
09:44:21  <George> If you need something else - let me know
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12:10:43  <tennel> hello, have you ever thought about translating the webpage into other languages?
12:11:36  <Ammler> tennel: you might notice the "en" in the url
12:12:01  <tennel> yes
12:12:10  <Ammler> but the webmaster is a bit busy ;-)
12:12:29  <tennel> ok... :)
12:13:23  <tennel> i could help u with the german version
12:13:55  <Ammler> I guess, it isn't the lack of translators, more the lack of interface for them...
12:16:43  <tennel> ok, you mean that the translators can not work on the web page?
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12:25:35  <roboboy> hello
12:27:40  <Timmaexx> hi
12:27:42  <Xaroth> tennel: he means that there is no webpage for the translators to translate stuff for the website.
12:27:46  <Xaroth> not yet, at least.
12:28:29  <tennel> ok, thx, i hope in the near future :)
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12:42:10  <Mark__T> hi, is there no ai in 1.0.0 beta1 source release?
12:44:21  *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-201-208-66.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:46:14  <Yexo> no, you'll have to download an AI via the online content downloading system
12:47:33  <roboboy> is it The Online Content Downloading System or BaNaNaS
12:47:50  <Yexo> BaNaNaS _is_ the online content downloading system
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12:48:55  <roboboy> but whats its proper name or does the game not call it BaNaNaS
12:49:18  <Yexo> the button ingame says "Check online content"
12:49:32  <Yexo> the website says "BaNaNaS"
12:49:40  <dragonhorseboy> hey yexo
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12:49:45  <Yexo> first line on the website; "BaNaNaS is a content service..."
12:49:50  <Yexo> so both names are fine
12:49:53  <Yexo> hello dragonhorseboy
12:52:20  <dragonhorseboy> what doing yexo?
12:52:34  <Yexo> trying to fix openttd bugs
12:52:40  <Yexo> and reading the forum
12:53:50  <dragonhorseboy> heh ok
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12:55:56  <Mark__T> Is there a  way to pre install ai?
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12:56:10  <Mark__T> I'm trying to create a reasonable package for foresight
12:56:29  <Yexo> you can download some AIs and put the tar files in the bin/ai/ directory
12:58:07  * dragonhorseboy still likes the Denver & Rio Grande AI .. aside to the stupid problem of it stealing my exact routes instead of building its own at times :p
12:58:43  <Mark__T> what would be a good ai for starters?
13:02:22  <Yexo> just try a few and find one that you like
13:04:51  <dragonhorseboy> mark_t .. if you don't mind planes .. look up the WrightAI .. but I have to warn you it'll want to build at all larger towns from the start off :P (I know its a 'proof of concept' ai but still)
13:05:51  <Noldo> Mark__T: just test some and see which one you like
13:07:48  <Yexo> WrightAI was really never ment to be played against
13:07:58  <Yexo> it's just a simple example AI
13:09:25  <Mark__T> ok
13:09:47  <Mark__T> thx
13:10:07  <Mark__T> so far I like the beta1
13:10:26  <dragonhorseboy> yexo well its not simple .. it earns too MUCH money even with early planes :P
13:10:44  <dragonhorseboy> so its a good one for competition with especially if you're using it in IS2.1.1 hehe
13:10:55  <Yexo> I didn't say it's easy to play against, it's an easy AI in terms of development, the code is simple
13:11:01  <dragonhorseboy> hm true
13:11:17  <Coco-Banana-Man> [13:58:25] * dragonhorseboy still likes the Denver & Rio Grande AI .. aside to the stupid problem of it stealing my exact routes instead of building its own at times :p <--- what about just forbidding sharing for it?
13:11:19  <planetmaker> There are worse performing AIs
13:11:29  <dragonhorseboy> yexo btw its funny to watch two WrightAI companies deck it off against each others...
13:11:29  <planetmaker> But planes is the most simple concept in OpenTTD which there is
13:11:40  <planetmaker> Also humans can make insane amounts of money using planes
13:11:41  <dragonhorseboy> more than often in a few years one company has 20+ planes more than others
13:11:48  <dragonhorseboy> coco...sharing isn't the problem...
13:12:10  <dragonhorseboy> eg I build a route from coal mine #4 to powerplant #2 on map .. and soon the ai builds a duplicated route of the same nature
13:12:21  <dragonhorseboy> doesn't happen all the times tho but still
13:12:23  <Coco-Banana-Man> oh, ok
13:12:56  <dragonhorseboy> coco at least that particular AI is a lot tracklaying smarter than the original AI
13:13:09  <dragonhorseboy> doesn't loop onto itself etc .. I do kinda wish the station layout could use some reworking tho
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13:15:04  <dragonhorseboy> planetmakers in SP I rarely use planes much and more than often its either small passenger or massive freight one. I guess I'm just being a bit too 'relastic' seeing how real planes eat so much more fuel compared to a modern highspeed train line. to our own ;)
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14:12:15  <Belugas> hello
14:15:32  <|Terkhen|> hello Belugas
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14:26:12  <Belugas> hello Terkhen :)
14:26:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r18730 /trunk/src/viewport_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3414]: new viewports didn't center on the correct position
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14:31:42  <dragonhorseboy> hey belugas
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14:34:00  <planetmaker> hello Belugas and happy new year to you :-)
14:34:13  <dragonhorseboy> :)
14:37:10  <Belugas> happy new year to you all :)
14:37:14  <Belugas> shorter ;)
14:37:52  <planetmaker> ;-)
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14:51:28  <Xaroth> happeh new year Belugas
14:54:38  <dragonhorseboy> and same to you too xaroth ;)
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15:03:26  <dragonhorseboy> seem to be a quiet day here as usual me think
15:04:59  <SpComb> .
15:05:27  <dragonhorseboy> heh hey spcomb
15:05:41  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb you the one who was running that unnamed server right?
15:07:08  <SpComb> mysterious unnamed server
15:07:15  <dragonhorseboy> lol
15:07:51  <dragonhorseboy> well when are you going to finish it so it could then be upgraded to a more standard build? ;)
15:07:59  * dragonhorseboy had been looking at it in server list for some time
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15:11:28  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I'm playing together with another guy
15:11:44  <SpComb> hopefully soonish-ly, it's starting to get tiring
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15:14:04  <dragonhorseboy> ok
15:15:36  <SpComb> heard a surprisingly many people play/talk about OpenTTD over the last two weeks
15:16:13  <dragonhorseboy> :p well for me the only thing I'll play is IS2.1.1 (or whatever is newer version next) alone naturally
15:16:20  <dragonhorseboy> elsewise its only the patch for me if on my own
15:16:22  <planetmaker> might be related to the channel you're talking in, SpComb
15:16:23  <SpComb> IS alone?
15:16:28  <SpComb> planetmaker: no, I mean, elsewhere
15:16:34  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb yeah
15:16:35  <SpComb> friends who I didn't know played OpenTTD, or just started
15:16:48  <dragonhorseboy> if there's no sharing then whats the point of not just playing in the patch instead basically (to me)
15:16:49  <planetmaker> 1.0... catches attention
15:17:04  <SpComb> partially that, although not even all of them had 1.0
15:17:22  <dragonhorseboy> well I'm going off for a while now anyway
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16:04:51  <DJNekkid> is the cargolables in this table: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0GeneralVariables#Cargo_translation_table_09_
16:04:57  <DJNekkid> possible to use outside of that table?
16:05:26  <DJNekkid> i.e. i could use them in an action 3/VarAction2 variable 47(iirc)
16:08:07  <peter1138> no
16:08:16  <peter1138> you use the index of the label
16:08:43  <DJNekkid> okidoki :D
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16:09:10  <peter1138> so 0x27 would reference LIME
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16:11:16  <DJNekkid> yea... :)
16:11:49  <DJNekkid> i pretty much know how that works ... were just wondering if i could actually _use_ thoose labels, or i had to invent my own :P
16:13:03  <peter1138> errr
16:13:11  <peter1138> that's not what you asked
16:13:21  <peter1138> you can use any label...
16:13:49  <DJNekkid> but not outside the table?
16:13:59  <peter1138> ...
16:14:05  <DJNekkid> i cant use LIME and COAL in an Action3 ?
16:14:14  <DJNekkid> (or that var2 that does the same thing)
16:15:27  <peter1138> you don't use "LIME" or "COAL" directly in the action3 (or var2), you using the index of it from the translation table
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16:15:53  <Lapsus> Hello! :3
16:16:20  <DJNekkid> thats why i have to invent my own :P
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16:16:29  <peter1138> ...
16:16:29  <DJNekkid> (via preprocessor)
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16:19:38  <sparr> when I have a temporary traffic jam on my rail network, how can I avoid backwards-facing trains being stuck for minutes?
16:21:21  <frosch123> increase the timelimit for trainversering to infinite
16:24:17  <sparr> no, I want them to reverse
16:24:23  <sparr> but I don't want them to STAY reversed
16:24:40  <sparr> usually when a train reverses it goes a tile or two (til it hits a backwards signal) then reverses again
16:24:45  <sparr> what causes them to reverse once and stop?
16:26:44  <frosch123> iirc that is the behaviour at path signals when no backward-path is found. i cannot remember whether that was changed in trunk
16:27:20  <sparr> :(
16:28:46  <sparr> good to know at least, thanks
16:28:57  <sparr> I can afford an extra few tiles to take path signals off my split bridges
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17:00:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18731 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp station_gui.cpp station_gui.h): -Codechange: move the DrawStationCoverage stuff from misc_gui.cpp to station_gui.cpp
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17:09:48  <dragonhorseboy> hey
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17:12:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18732 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp misc_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: move the company related commands of misc_cmd.cpp to company_cmd.cpp
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17:18:55  <dragonhorseboy> hey fjb
17:19:15  <fjb> Hi dragonhorseboy
17:19:32  <dragonhorseboy> how doing?
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17:29:10  <sparr> what is the point of path signals causing reversed trains to stop permanently?
17:29:35  <dragonhorseboy> yeah good question
17:30:48  <Rubidium> failing to find a route to a safe waiting point, which makes the train marked stuck
17:32:36  <fjb> That's why I'm disabling train reversion.
17:32:40  <dragonhorseboy> well rubidium why should it not just simply turn around again if it can even see that the signal is backward?
17:33:33  <Rubidium> because then if you mess with signals at a station trains might magically turn around (and leave)
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17:35:25  <Rubidium> anyhow, for PBS issues talk to michi_cc, not me
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17:35:51  <sparr> so the back of a path signal is not a safe waiting point, but the back of other signals is?
17:35:52  <dragonhorseboy> and to think I wonder why ottd can't just simply directly use the signalling system from the patch as it always seem to just work
17:37:02  <peter1138> because it doesn't just work, and it's also written in x86 assembly
17:37:36  <dragonhorseboy> peter..I've built so many different junctions in the patch and trains don't wait backward at a one-way signal EVER
17:37:47  <dragonhorseboy> compared to ottd where trains always seem to break stuck at werid places
17:38:15  <peter1138> i've seen plenty of ttdp pbs bug reports over time
17:38:29  <peter1138> you can disable the turning around thing of course, it's just not a default
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17:39:34  <dragonhorseboy> hmm and a large 4-way bridges-using junction with extra tracks and no signals anywhere except at the legs themself .. always fun to have multiply trains going through it at once. others looking at the screenshot seem to have no idea how to do it ^_^
17:40:14  <dragonhorseboy> (hint for them: reserved tracks instead)
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17:40:32  <sparr> reserved tracks have a few "bugs" too
17:40:39  <sparr> i'm going to try to document some of them
17:40:51  <sparr> sometimes the tile before or after the visibly reserved tiles is still "reserved"
17:41:01  <dragonhorseboy> sparr well I've never ever gotten one .. and even that thing about "train in depot" has never ever happened once .. dunno what people do to get these
17:41:25  <dragonhorseboy> brb
17:41:49  <sparr> i think these bugs show up more when you are optimizing
17:42:00  <sparr> if you have plenty of space and money and time then you can build in a lot of buffer space
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17:43:47  <peter1138> a lot people build path signals just like block signals
17:43:52  <peter1138> and then still get jams
17:44:15  <sparr> in one game right now I am using backward path signals as pathfinding penalties
17:44:22  <sparr> those cause a lot of jams :(
17:46:07  <Belugas> jams?
17:46:10  <Belugas> jam!
17:46:13  <planetmaker> I just think that the default setting should be that trains don't turn in front of red path signals
17:46:22  <planetmaker> strawberry!
17:47:53  <frosch123> planetmaker: you can cooperate with eddi on that topic
17:48:26  <frosch123> though maybe you want to distinguish one-way- and normal-path-signals
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17:50:57  <planetmaker> frosch123, well, not really.
17:51:17  <planetmaker> any train which turns within path signals is 99.95% bound to cause trouble
17:52:18  <planetmaker> our default settings are to switch off any turning on our servers
17:52:56  <planetmaker> important enough to make even a shortcut command to "fix" all signal settings with one command ;-)
17:53:39  <dragonhorseboy> back
17:53:40  <planetmaker> But I see a point in not disabling turning in normal block signals under certain circumstances
17:53:42  <sparr> what is the purpose of the default behavior?
17:53:55  <sparr> most trains reverse when they get stuck, why do path signals change that
17:54:30  <Ammler> [18:53] <planetmaker> But I see a point in not disabling turning in normal block signals under certain circumstances <-- which?
17:54:51  <planetmaker> Ammler, those noob constructions which we don't build ;-)
17:56:58  <Ammler> well, would be nice to see such a construction, where returning helps...
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17:57:50  <Ammler> but I agree with Eddi, it should be a GUI setting
17:58:29  <Ammler> with a red warning, if you disable pbs, you should also disable block and opposite
17:58:39  <Rubidium> Eddi's thing is that the defaults are wrong, but he never has told us what he thinks are the best defaults
17:58:47  <Rubidium> he's kinda pulling a mb on us
17:59:10  <Ammler> well, I guess, the defaults are TTO settings?
17:59:38  <Ammler> isn't that the sense of the defaults?
18:00:12  <Ammler> but they aren't very newbie friendly. (not just signals)
18:01:31  <Ammler> but slowly, OpenTTD gets also players, which never played TTD before ;-)
18:01:54  <Rubidium> the defaults aren't TTO settings at all for a long time
18:02:33  <Ammler> ok, so just randomly?
18:02:52  *** lewymati [~lewymati@aejo131.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:03:20  <Ammler> well, you won't find the settings which everyone likes :-P
18:03:31  <sparr> again I ask...
18:03:31  <planetmaker> well... I outlined why I would consider "no turning" the better alternative. Most cases it doesn't help to find a path anyway. Also with block signals when using one-way signals.
18:03:33  <sparr> what is the purpose of the default behavior?
18:03:40  <sparr> WHO likes trains getting permanently stuck?
18:03:48  *** lewymati [~lewymati@aejd175.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
18:04:02  <sparr> Ammler: you imply that someone likes this setting
18:04:09  <Rubidium> well, not quite randomly either; I've done a 'review' a year or so ago what would be a sane default of some settings; the rest what it was at the beginning
18:04:21  <Ammler> sparr at least the quy, who coded it, yes.
18:04:25  <Ammler> guy*
18:04:30  <sparr> I think the guy who coded it did not test it well
18:05:05  <dragonhorseboy> sparr I got to agree
18:05:08  <Ammler> but as those are settings, it doesn't matter that much, bader are hardcoded things.
18:05:09  <Rubidium> anyhow... we're *still* waiting for someone to actually do such a proper review (preferably with diff to table/settings.h); lots of people more or less said they would do that
18:05:15  <dragonhorseboy> seeing how the same layouts from Patch just never works out in ottd at random
18:05:24  <peter1138> defaults have never been TTO... TTD maybe...
18:05:29  <dragonhorseboy> but I wouldn't comment any further
18:05:42  <Rubidium> yet *NOONE* ever done it
18:05:46  <glx> dragonhorseboy: OTTD PBS is not TTDPatch PBS
18:06:01  <planetmaker> what would such a review comprise, Rubidium ?
18:06:16  <sparr> Ammler: turning off reversing just to fix one bug with reversing is not a good fix
18:06:18  <Rubidium> sparr/dragonhorseboy: how do you expect someone to test whatever any player can throw at it?
18:06:18  <dragonhorseboy> glx so why not? I mean whats difficult about asking for a train to be able to enter platform B while another trains leave A at same time?
18:06:25  <Ammler> peter1138: sorry, meant TTD
18:06:40  <peter1138> dragonhorseboy, path signaling *does* that
18:06:44  <sparr> Rubidium: by putting it in a nightly and asking for feedback
18:06:58  <Ammler> sparr: he, why is that a bug?
18:07:11  <dragonhorseboy> peter...nope..it only allows one train in the junction at once rather than two (you know..the old cheap X junction in front of station)
18:07:12  <Ammler> that is just another behavior some like.
18:07:14  <planetmaker> sparrL, anyone can test. No need for a change of the defaults for that purpose
18:07:21  <sparr> Ammler: the "bug" is that a train gets permanently stuck due to a few seconds of jam
18:07:28  <peter1138> dragonhorseboy, then you're not USING path signals
18:07:33  <Rubidium> sparr: it has been a stand alone patch for ONE year, then it has been in trunk for EIGHT months, then it has been in a release for EIGHT months and only now you get really annoyed by it
18:07:44  <Rubidium> sparr, YOU should have reacted like... a year ago
18:07:49  <sparr> Ammler: at the very least, even if the current behavior is desired, the status of the train should change to "Stopped" rather than "Waiting for free path"
18:07:52  <dragonhorseboy> peter...I am..it only lets one train while the others sits waiting for it to clear the junction
18:08:05  <Ammler> sparr, so you want openttd should warn you, if you build crap?
18:08:24  <Rubidium> Ammler: that can be arranged, clippy style?
18:08:24  <sparr> Ammler: I want crap shouldn't break
18:08:27  <dragonhorseboy> I don't know if there's any point in keep talking about this anyway
18:08:47  <sparr> Ammler: so far no one has demonstrated any scenario in which the permanently-stuck "feature" is desirable
18:08:51  <Rubidium> "It's look like you're making something is broken, do you want to start again?"
18:08:55  <peter1138> made that up, right?
18:09:37  <Combuster> its been reported before...
18:09:55  <Ammler> sparr: the issue is, some don't like openttd does all the gameplay and like to do a part self.
18:10:09  <peter1138> dragonhorseboy, http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/mmmpbs.png
18:10:52  <peter1138> and you say that doesn't work
18:10:54  <Rubidium> Combuster: where? here on IRC. That is not a place that's meant to be used to remember such issues
18:11:02  <Combuster> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2274
18:11:08  <planetmaker> asked again: what should an analysis of the pros and cons of those settings look like?
18:11:08  <Combuster> September '08
18:11:38  <Combuster> I think at least its the same sort of problem as sparr mentioned
18:11:57  <peter1138> "If a train can't find a path, it will not wait indefinitely but for 'pf.wait_for_pbs_path' days.If a train can't find a path, it will not wait indefinitely but for 'pf.wait_for_pbs_path' days."
18:12:01  <peter1138> ^ the bug is... it doesn't
18:12:16  <sparr> Rubidium: http://sparr.homeip.net/pathing_0001.png <-- what is the right way to implement this?
18:12:16  <peter1138> it only seens to turn around when at a signal
18:12:27  <Ammler> IMO, the only issue with the signal settings is the lack of missing GUI
18:13:35  <Combuster> sparr: start with a one-way PBS signal
18:13:37  <Rubidium> sparr: that looks fine. If trains turn around there it means there's a massive gridlock on your network
18:13:44  <sparr> Combuster: did, same issue
18:13:53  <Combuster> its technically better
18:13:59  <sparr> Rubidium: and?
18:14:02  <planetmaker> Rubidium, but the point is: if so, turning doesn't help but makes things worse
18:14:05  <sparr> not "massive gridlock"
18:14:23  <Combuster> Rubidium: the problem is, if a temporary jam (or surge) occurs, it causes a permanent deadlock
18:14:25  <sparr> although gridlock causes it too
18:14:37  <sparr> if any train ever stops while leaving that split, there's a good chance it will get permanently stuck
18:14:48  <sparr> which then causes gridlock and triggers every such problem farther back in the network
18:15:00  <sparr> what Combuster said
18:15:14  <Rubidium> sparr: might you have reversing at PBS signals disabled?
18:15:17  <sparr> every time my network jams, I have to manually find 20+ stuck trains and tell them to turn around
18:15:37  <planetmaker> sparr, as said: reversing in front of any signal solves those issues
18:15:44  <sparr> Rubidium: I think that I do not
18:15:48  <Rubidium> then the train turned around at the red block signal, tries to find a path and waits indefinitely because it may not turn around again
18:16:26  <sparr> planetmaker: that might do it.  what is the down side?
18:16:40  <planetmaker> sparr, non for the networks I build
18:16:50  <sparr> what is the down side for any network?
18:17:36  <sparr> There are long arguments to be had over features and settings that make some networks better and some networks worse.  I don't care about that.  I am trying to establish that this particular behavior makes no network better, and thus is a "bug" instead of a "feature".
18:17:50  <Combuster> imo trains should never reverse except inside stations and EOL
18:18:14  <Rubidium> Combuster: then change those settings
18:18:22  <planetmaker> we do...
18:18:53  <Rubidium> but just browse to the saves at the bug reports and you'll find countless examples of people depending on the turning around behaviour
18:19:07  <Ammler> sparr: I would guess, you have disabled waiting time for pbs but enabled it for block
18:19:21  <planetmaker> uhm... depending on turning around during grid lock?
18:19:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes
18:19:49  <planetmaker> having it enabled (as it's default) != depending on it
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18:20:23  <Rubidium> imagine a map filled with 4 tracks next to eachother full of two-way signals, the occasional junctions and 90 degree turns turned on
18:20:58  <sparr> Rubidium: at one point I thought of trying that :)  cover the map in a grid, see if trains could find their way
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18:21:12  <Combuster> Rubidium: that's not what we were saying
18:21:13  <Rubidium> so changing the default will cause problems for the noobiest of the noob; the one that doesn't know about one way signals
18:21:20  <planetmaker> there are very few of the saves which use that kind of setup. And even then...
18:21:32  <sparr> Ammler: how can I check that?
18:21:46  <Rubidium> I'm not saying that that setting might be better disabled by default though
18:22:09  <Ammler> Rubidium: but it needs to be the same for both types
18:22:12  <Combuster> what my report wanted, was to check if a signal can be reached from the proper side before reversing
18:22:17  <Rubidium> it's just that I'm going to wait for each and every setting you lot think needs to be changed; I want them all in one go
18:22:25  <Combuster> i.e. to stop reversing when it makes no sense
18:22:38  <Ammler> but that is just a issue for players not devs ;-)
18:22:42  * sparr cries over the religious war he has started
18:23:13  <Ammler> sparr http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Setdef
18:23:27  <peter1138> hmm
18:23:56  <peter1138> okay
18:24:02  <peter1138> why do trains get stuck?
18:24:03  <planetmaker> where are they defined, Rubidium ?
18:24:06  <peter1138> i can't reproduce it
18:24:11  <Rubidium> table/settings.h
18:24:14  <planetmaker> thx
18:24:24  <sparr> peter1138: it could be a non-default setting on the server i am playing on.  but i dont know how to check that.
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18:24:34  <Ammler> peter1138: disable waiting time for pbs and then let a train reverse into a pbs
18:24:58  <Ammler> where never a path will be available
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18:25:22  <peter1138> oh, so you've turned turning around off, and then expect it to turn around?
18:25:38  <sparr> peter1138: it could be a non-default setting on the server i am playing on.  but i dont know how to check that.
18:25:40  <Ammler> they might turn around from block singnals into pbs
18:25:56  <Ammler> sparr, check the link i pasted
18:26:04  <sparr> Ammler: I did
18:26:22  <Ammler> without the value, it will show you the server setting
18:27:01  <sparr> "it"?
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18:27:20  <Ammler> type setting <whatever>
18:27:28  <Ammler> to the game console
18:27:42  <sparr> which setting is the relevant one here?
18:27:52  <Ammler> those from my wiki pate
18:27:55  <Ammler> paste*
18:29:17  <Ammler> wait_for_pbs_path,wait_twoway_signal,wait_oneway_signal
18:30:09  <sparr> wait_for_pbs_path 255, wait_twoway_signal 15, wait_oneway_signal 15
18:30:29  <frosch123> lol, ok, those settings are broken :p
18:30:34  <Rubidium> so turning around for pbs signals is turned of, turning around at the others is turned on
18:30:45  <peter1138> well, i'm trying this
18:30:50  <peter1138> and nothing locks up
18:31:13  <Rubidium> and based on the values at least two of the three values are non-default
18:31:16  <frosch123> otoh, aren't those settings just those suggested half an hour ago?
18:31:17  <sparr> 255 is turned off?
18:31:37  <peter1138> in fact the train never turns around
18:32:56  <Ammler> peter1138: they turn around from the block signals
18:33:03  <peter1138> they aren't
18:33:28  <Ammler> they wait for 15 days then turn around, that is how that setting works...
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18:34:07  <peter1138> odd, it is now
18:34:32  <Ammler> sparr: the server admin could solve it in 2 ways, either he set pbs to 15 like the other 2 or disable the other two, too..
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18:36:05  <sparr> ok, thanks for helping me figure this out.  i still think the lack of a status change is unhelpful
18:36:31  <peter1138> hmm, now it's not
18:36:32  <Ammler> it doesn't need exactly to be exactly same value, but it needs to be enabled or disabled for all the same.
18:37:06  <sparr> I guess one alternative would be to space my path signals such that a reversed train can't ever hit them
18:37:30  <Ammler> sparr: if you can't change the values, the only solution is not using the other type.
18:37:52  <sparr> i THINK that the network i am building isn't possible without path signals :(
18:38:08  <Ammler> why not using those everywhere?
18:38:57  <Ammler> it isn't possible, we have fiddled around quite much until michi_cc gave us the option to disable block signals, too.
18:39:04  <sparr> i have been led to believe that path signals consume more cpu time
18:39:32  <peter1138> cool, train crash :D
18:40:04  <sparr> http://sparr.homeip.net/pathing_0002.png
18:40:09  <sparr> can't do that without path signals, right?
18:40:31  <Ammler> why not?
18:40:45  <Ammler> but I would oneway path signals
18:40:50  <Ammler> use*
18:41:01  <sparr> i mean the entry path signal
18:41:06  <sparr> the one-way
18:41:15  <sparr> the others are just pathfinding penalties, i could replace them with bridges
18:41:40  <Ammler> they are only penalties from back
18:41:47  <sparr> they only get passed from the back
18:41:48  * fjb uses path signals only.
18:41:56  <Ammler> ah, I see
18:42:23  <Ammler> yes, use path signals only and replace the block singals with oneway path signals
18:42:34  <sparr> have I been misled, re cpu use?
18:43:02  <Ammler> not noticeable
18:43:09  <sparr> at all?
18:43:13  <sparr> even with 1500+ trains?
18:43:15  <Ammler> maybe a bit :-)
18:43:31  <peter1138> right
18:43:31  <Ammler> but you should use oneway when possible
18:43:37  <peter1138> for me, the train will not turn around
18:44:10  <peter1138> there's something wrong
18:45:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r18733 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
18:45:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
18:45:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
18:45:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
18:45:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: greek - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:49:39  <peter1138> right
18:50:46  <Ammler> he, it doesn't turn around here, either
18:51:01  <Ammler> might be fixed in the meantime?
18:51:02  <peter1138> has something changed?
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18:51:21  <Rubidium> michi did do some path signal work lately
18:52:53  <peter1138> unless it happens in some corner case
18:54:30  <Ammler> also no turns in 0.7.5
18:54:56  <Ammler> sparr, do you have savegame with the issue?
18:55:26  <sparr> no
18:55:33  <sparr> i'll reproduce it when i can and make one
19:01:37  *** fjb [~frank@p5485C8EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:03:53  <Sacro> Hmm, why does openttd-1.0-beta1 make pulseaudio go all fuzzly when 0.7.4 doens't
19:03:56  <Sacro> this seems like a bug
19:05:22  <frosch123> what, sacro is on ubuntu?
19:05:38  *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@108.111.203.213.9lyon1-0-ro-bas-1.9tel.net] has joined #openttd
19:05:45  <Sacro> I'm on Arch
19:06:57  <Sacro> hmm
19:07:11  <Sacro> it's worse when I start it from my gnome menu
19:07:40  <Sacro> and from the run menu
19:07:46  <Sacro> when i launch from gnome-terminal it's fine
19:08:34  <Sacro> ahh
19:08:44  <Sacro> I don't think it's obeying SDL_AUDIODRIVER
19:09:01  <Sacro> which should be esd
19:09:15  *** fjb [~frank@p5485C8EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
19:09:55  <Sacro> Yes, it's using 'pulse' instead of 'esd'
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19:11:19  <sparrL> I am trying to reproduce the issue in a test case
19:11:28  <sparrL> and my trains are sometimes not reversing at oneway and twoway signals
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19:22:41  <sparr> http://sparr.homeip.net/Reversing_Problem_0002.sav
19:22:47  <sparr> Ammler: ^^
19:22:50  <sparr> peter1138: ^^
19:23:56  <sparr> the existence of a signal in the middle of the to-be-jammed train is influencing the reversing behavior
19:24:07  <sparr> if there is no signal there, then the train doesn't reverse back to the path signal
19:26:51  <peter1138> uh huh
19:27:02  <peter1138> so you're placing signals too closely? :P
19:27:08  <sparr> i don't think so
19:27:28  <sparr> train length 10+ tiles, I am not going to put my signals 10+ tiles apart, that's asking for even worse jams
19:28:27  <peter1138> that's not true at all
19:31:11  <sparr> everywhere trains want to be less than 10 tiles apart it will incur a delay
19:31:14  <sparr> those delays will propagate
19:31:32  <sparr> Rubidium: does that test case qualify as "building crap"?
19:32:27  <peter1138> Sacro, samplerate was changed from 11025 to 44100. this seems to cause pulseaudio to throw a spazz
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19:33:58  <peter1138> Sacro, "pulse" is correct for SDL_AUDIODRIVER. "esd" is the old compatibility mode. you probably just need to install the right package.
19:42:10  <Sacro> i'm using esdcompat
19:44:54  <peter1138> pfft, just remove all that gumpf and get an sb live...
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19:51:07  <sparrL> other than the source, is there documentation on the pathfinding weights of various features?
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19:58:40  <Zuu> sparrL probably not if it is not in the wiki or a possible docs directory in trunk.
20:00:17  <asilv> if you mean pathfunding penalties they are in openttd.cfg
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20:01:29  <sparrL> hmmm
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20:14:52  <sparr> Is there a scenario available anywhere for concept testing?  no spurious terrain, but usefully placed hills and mountains.  one or two of every industry.  a couple of towns, a couple of cities.  etc
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20:41:02  <Yexo> as far as I'm aware not, I usually just use a random map for that purpose
20:41:14  <Yexo> or a not-so-random map depending on what I'm testing
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20:55:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18734 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Prepare: for 1.0.0-beta2
20:55:17  <Noldo> already?
20:55:46  <Chrill> oooh
20:55:47  <Chrill> beta2
20:56:45  <Rubidium> yeah, got sick of people reporting the same bug over and over again
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20:57:35  <Chrill> Eoin?
20:57:58  <Noldo> :)
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21:00:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18735 /tags/1.0.0-beta2/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Release: 1.0.0-beta2
21:01:08  <PeterT> Sweet!
21:01:44  <PeterT> !logs
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21:33:42  <andythenorth> meh
21:37:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r18736 /trunk/src/ (house.h newgrf_house.cpp): -Feature [NewGRF]: implement varaction2houses vars 66 ad 67
21:43:24  *** Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.5, 1.0.0-beta2 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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21:45:23  <SpComb> what's this !logs business you speak of
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21:48:09  <andythenorth> gosh damn those water-based-industry heliports
21:48:48  <andythenorth> my graphical solution to landing helicopters on dredgers...is boring
21:49:36  <andythenorth> Yexo: what would help move newgrf airports along?
21:50:03  <Yexo> me starting to work on it again
21:50:10  <andythenorth> :P
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21:50:44  <Yexo> the current problem is how to implement public airports aka industries that have an airfield
21:50:47  <Yexo> see http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Newgrf_Airports_Documentation#Public_Airports_.28counter-proposal.3B_not_implemented_either.29
21:50:56  <Yexo> but I'm still not sure how I should implement that
21:52:44  <andythenorth> hmm
21:52:52  <andythenorth> industry airports seems easier
21:53:04  <andythenorth> but it's a hack on industries, might cause problems in future
21:53:14  <Yexo> such as?
21:53:53  <andythenorth> some interesting industry feature that has to be legacy compatible with the public airport implementation?
21:53:56  <PeterT> spComb: Wrong channel
21:55:06  <andythenorth> Yexo: airports would appear in the industry menu?
21:55:17  <Yexo> no
21:55:18  <andythenorth> industries conceptually produce / accept cargo.  airports don't?
21:55:24  <Yexo> the normal airports stay as they are
21:55:37  <Yexo> it's not really ment as "public airport", but can be used as such
21:55:50  <Yexo> it's also ment for custom industries that have a heliport for example
21:56:03  <andythenorth> personally I would prefer this implementation, for the reason you just gave
21:56:10  <andythenorth> it seems faster and simpler
21:56:23  <andythenorth> I just wonder about unintended consequences
21:56:30  <Yexo> you prefer it above wath?
21:56:33  <Yexo> the one by pikka?
21:57:06  <andythenorth> pikka's being the 'not industry' version?
21:57:40  <Yexo> " Public Airports (not implemented yet)"<- that one is by pikka
21:57:47  <Yexo> " Public Airports (counter-proposal; not implemented either)" <- that one is by frosch123
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21:59:17  <andythenorth> I prefer frosch's version
22:00:11  <frosch123> actually it is not really a choice. imo there is no way around airports/seaports assigned to industries
22:00:24  <frosch123> pikka's stuff is completely separate/optional though
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22:01:08  <andythenorth> I have selfish reasons for favouring the 'airport as industry' route :o
22:02:44  <Yexo> that reminds me, I should try and figure out a way to enable the same callbacks for other vehicles
22:02:49  <Yexo> at least ships should be pretty easy
22:03:46  <andythenorth> which leads one day to newgrf docks?
22:03:58  <Yexo> yes
22:04:48  <Yexo> and, same as with airports, industries with a custom dock
22:05:28  <andythenorth> yay
22:05:39  <andythenorth> well I guess I'd have to help with that somehow then
22:05:39  <Belugas> night all
22:05:42  <andythenorth> night Belugas
22:05:44  <Yexo> night Belugas
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22:18:19  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18737 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix (r12028): Var67 data wasn't swapped properly for orientation.
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22:33:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r18738 /trunk/src/ (clear_map.h tree_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r18719): when a tree died while there was snow the amount of snow on the tile changed
22:34:06  <planetmaker> good night Belugas
22:34:26  <planetmaker> he, what an odd thing. The snow mourning the tree
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22:36:40  <Yexo> yeah, I forgot MakeSnow() reset the amount of snow to 0
22:37:05  <planetmaker> he :-)
22:39:23  <andythenorth> stupid dredging industry :P
22:39:32  <andythenorth> I give up.  For today, anyways
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22:40:29  <planetmaker> oh, that was the spurious green snow tile in the thread
22:40:40  <Yexo> oh, andythenorth: it'd be a big help if you could create a very simple newgrf with a single industry that looks like an airport
22:40:59  <planetmaker> I just compiled to look at the savegame :-P
22:41:15  <andythenorth> Yexo: an industry that contains an airport, or an industry that *is* an airport?
22:41:24  <andythenorth> just before I go drawing loads of stuff...
22:41:29  <Yexo> doesn't matter
22:41:36  <andythenorth> okey kokey
22:41:40  <Yexo> even very crude grahpics are ok
22:41:45  <planetmaker> the latter exists as of now, I think ;-)
22:41:50  <planetmaker> err... the first
22:41:54  <andythenorth> I need to draw a survey camp that contains an airport
22:41:54  <Zuu> Grandmas bakery with express delivery airport :-)
22:41:57  <Yexo> it'd just save me some hours trying to correctly align sprites
22:42:21  <Yexo> hmm, a heliport would be easy indeed :)
22:42:38  <planetmaker> the dredgin site has one
22:42:42  <planetmaker> *dredging
22:42:50  <andythenorth> I've got a fricking industry heliport I'm trying to eliminate.  Perhaps I could pm it to you
22:42:53  <andythenorth> oh perhaps not
22:43:15  <Yexo> with some nfo please, so I can add some airport code to test what I code
22:43:36  <planetmaker> should also be feasable to cut it from the final NFO
22:43:41  <andythenorth> ok, it won't be today, but at least it gives me something more interesting to do than draw cranes with helipads attached :)
22:43:54  <planetmaker> go go surcey camp :-)
22:44:09  <planetmaker> make it for cessnas a viable destination ;-)
22:44:15  <andythenorth> does it need taxiways and that kind of crap?  Pikka seems to have thought of *everything* in the spec
22:44:17  <planetmaker> and a nightmare for boings.
22:44:22  <andythenorth> I'm thinking just a runway
22:44:26  <Yexo> it doesn't need anything, just some graphics
22:44:39  <Yexo> a single runway is fine, that makes coding the statemachine easy :)
22:44:46  <andythenorth> hmm...which road set is GPL? :)
22:44:53  <planetmaker> OpenGFX :-)
22:46:01  <planetmaker> TTRS... maybe usable. But it can be disputed as "use for (O)TTD(P) is not GPL-compatible
22:46:18  <andythenorth> screw it, I'll just use ground tiles
22:46:23  <planetmaker> OpenGFX actually even has two. Normal and toyland roads
22:46:45  <planetmaker> toyland roads are actually not bad. Nice concrete w/o middle colouring
22:47:05  <planetmaker> might be just what you want for a small landing site
22:47:31  <Yexo> bah, next time I sync I should also start the game, not just see if it compiles
22:47:38  <Yexo> something in the gui code changed apparently
22:48:11  <Xaroth> you breaking things again, Yexo? :P
22:48:41  <Yexo> it's just opening the build airports window that causes an assert now, nothing obvious really
22:49:18  <planetmaker> a mistake often made. Compiles --> Done. I know that, been there, seen that :S
22:49:26  <Xaroth> if it compiles, ship it :)
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22:55:12  <andythenorth> no airport industry tonight :( I have to sleep
22:55:18  <andythenorth> looks fun though
22:55:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker: meanwhile I've 'run out' of FIRS text IDs for industry names.  Probably some could be shifted around
22:55:52  <planetmaker> :-O
22:56:02  <andythenorth> I think it will be fine
22:56:13  <andythenorth> anyway, good night
22:56:15  <planetmaker> is there such small limit?
22:56:20  <planetmaker> well, good night.
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22:56:25  <planetmaker> Sleep is a good plan
22:56:36  <planetmaker> so... also from here :-) Good night
22:59:56  <Rubidium> this *stupid* pulseaudio bug is really annoying me
23:00:06  <Yexo> don't be so fast Rubidium :p
23:00:16  <Yexo> you closed it before I could even add a comment about known-bugs.txt :p
23:03:47  <Rubidium> I'm pondering adding it as 'default' close reason
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23:11:14  <Terkhen> good night
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23:14:42  <Yexo> argh, that's why it didn't call UpdateWidgetSize: the signature of that function changed
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23:20:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... 3D cinema hurts my eyes...
23:24:01  * Chrill pats Eddi|zuHause's eyes
23:24:03  <Chrill> Avatar 3D? :p
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23:29:04  <frosch123> night
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23:32:38  * Zuu finds two exams with different course codes that he both though was the same course... it is hard to sort all those old exams to the right binder. :-p
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