Config
Log for #openttd on 26th January 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
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00:17:51  <devilsadvocate> do the marshalling yard in the industrial station renewal do anything?
00:18:49  <PeterT> other than be station art?
00:18:57  <devilsadvocate> yeah
00:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause> then no.
00:23:19  <devilsadvocate> oki
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00:44:44  <dragonhorseboy> hey
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01:34:52  <dragonhorseboy> hey fjb
01:34:56  <PeterT> hey dragonhorseboy
01:34:58  <PeterT> hey fjb
01:35:03  <PeterT> hey __ln__
01:35:06  <PeterT> hey Ammler
01:35:18  <PeterT> let's say hey to every person in the channel :-P
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01:38:10  <andythenorth> hey
01:38:26  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth how's FIRS going?
01:39:05  <andythenorth> right now, it's not.  I'm working.  But I'm close to releasing some seriously improved production code for processing industries.
01:39:48  <dragonhorseboy> heh
01:40:58  <dragonhorseboy> btw is the nightly basically the 'everything in firs' one or? been pondering that for two nights now
01:49:56  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: yes the current nightly is 'everything in FIRS'.
01:50:42  <andythenorth> when planetmaker and I get some more economy parameter code done (maybe 50% done right now) that will change
01:51:12  <dragonhorseboy> well as long as there's the option to still use 'everything' :P
01:51:15  * dragonhorseboy hehs
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04:22:25  <devilsadvocate> is there any way to stop primary industries from closing for want of 'good service' with ECS vectors?
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08:48:26  <bartavelle> hello
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12:59:53  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18918 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/tosInner.html: [Website] -Update: the TOS of the content system to mention music sets
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13:19:51  <Goulp> @seen yorick
13:19:51  <DorpsGek> Goulp: I have not seen yorick.
13:19:56  <Goulp> tant pis
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14:05:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r18919 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix (r15371): strcasestr() return should not be const
14:05:46  <__ln__> why not?
14:06:07  <Belugas> hello
14:06:10  <__ln__> ah, return, yes.
14:13:33  <peter1138> @seen tdev
14:13:33  <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen tdev.
14:16:04  <Belugas> short memory bot..
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14:16:30  <glx> more restarted bot ;)
14:17:33  <peter1138> again? hrr
14:17:52  <peter1138> ah well, i gave up RoR devving
14:17:53  <TrueBrain> it stores those things on disk ...
14:18:03  <glx> no but I don't tdev came since
14:18:08  <peter1138> probably not
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15:14:49  <peter1138> glx, i feel like a ottd user trying to submit patches to ottd ;)
15:15:03  <glx> what?
15:15:37  <glx> the fix is mine :)
15:15:42  <peter1138> my little fix patches get ignored because they need review... meanwhile huge untested sweeping changes get commit
15:15:55  <peter1138> +ed
15:16:04  <peter1138> nah, for RoR i mean :)
15:16:11  <glx> ha
15:16:39  <glx> RoR is weird sometimes :)
15:16:52  <glx> I get hang on start or no sound (but not always)
15:17:11  <peter1138> i never got it worked after the the migration to ogre 1.6 (huge untested sweeping change...)
15:17:18  <peter1138> *working
15:17:41  <Rubidium> peter1138: we're not that bad w.r.t. fix patches I hope, okay with non-fix patches and arbitrary features
15:18:03  <peter1138> yeha true
15:19:38  <Rubidium> http://paste.openttd.org/221030 <- now, who finds those numbers unexpected?
15:20:36  <Ammler> time frame?
15:20:36  <peter1138> a lot of people like heightmaps
15:20:51  <Rubidium> Ammler: ~375 days
15:21:15  <Ammler> but download all isn't possible with gui anymore?
15:21:28  <Rubidium> Ammler: never was
15:21:45  <Rubidium> except when trying to join a server
15:24:13  <Yexo> heightmaps and scenarios do better then I expected
15:24:48  <Ammler> well, I have a feeling a lot just download everything...
15:25:11  <TrueBrain> then all should have equal amount of downloads
15:25:12  <TrueBrain> which is not true
15:26:06  <Ammler> that would need a count/day stats
15:26:07  <Rubidium> except there is 1 base graphics set, 47 heightmaps and 91 newgrfs
15:27:04  <Yexo> a lot of people who downloaded opengfx 2.0 first probably downloaded opengfx 2.1 later
15:27:17  <Yexo> so it's not strictly true that everyone only downloads 1 base graphics set
15:28:28  <Rubidium> and as the installer isn't accounted for, it's not even needed that they download it once
15:28:42  <Ammler> that is why basesounds is that low
15:30:18  <Rubidium> and because you can't download it in 0.7
15:30:18  <Ammler> anyway quite nice numbers, MP clients should rise :-)
15:30:23  <SpComb^> Ammler: I've improved the pngtile stuff recently, btw
15:30:57  <Singaporekid> spcomb is pngtile
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15:31:01  <SpComb^> yes
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15:31:21  <Ammler> SpComb^: do you have a kind of patch/script to make screen from save on dedicated server?
15:31:37  <SpComb^> Ammler: nope
15:32:36  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
15:32:41  <nicecupoftea> Hello Belugas
15:34:12  <SpComb^> Ammler: I'll give it a shot, though, I think it's possible
15:34:55  <Singaporekid> I can't load pvl_20080614_2040_giant.png for some reason
15:35:41  <Belugas> hello nicecupoftea
15:35:54  <SpComb^> Singaporekid: there's some bug with the error handling, but I haven't updated the caches for those yet
15:36:17  <peter1138> hmm. nice cup of tea. that's an idea.
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15:36:31  <Singaporekid> It's rather nice
15:36:34  <nicecupoftea> I've just had a nice cup of tea
15:36:50  <Ammler> !s/tea/coffee/ and I am with you :-)
15:36:52  <Singaporekid> no nicecupoftea, you are the nice cup of teas
15:37:14  <nicecupoftea> nicecupof{tea,coffee,coldDrink}
15:37:29  <nicecupoftea> is that a valid set?
15:41:01  <Ammler> !s/cold/hot/ ;-)
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15:43:56  <nicecupoftea> I do apologise!
15:45:32  <Belugas> i'd rather go for coffee, as always, but tea can be good too :)
15:45:59  <Belugas> mostly in sumer.  iced... with lemon
15:46:02  <Belugas> and mint
15:46:03  <Belugas> miam!
15:46:13  <Belugas> ... and we are in winter :(
15:46:15  <Belugas> booooo
15:46:15  <nicecupoftea> Shame about the Mac port issues/
15:46:19  <nicecupoftea> :(
15:46:28  <nicecupoftea> I was looking forward to game of 1.0b3
15:46:33  <nicecupoftea> But now I must compile it myself
15:46:44  <nicecupoftea> What a chore!
15:46:44  <jonty-comp> that's hardly the end of the world!
15:47:16  <nicecupoftea> I can't think of anything more pressing, to be quite honest
15:48:55  <Ammler> SpComb^: http://pastebin.ca/1766635
15:49:35  <SpComb^> Ammler: `make dirs`
15:49:41  <SpComb^> Ammler: I know, it's a stupid build script...
15:50:14  <Ammler> SpComb^: http://pastebin.ca/1766636
15:50:28  <SpComb^> Ammler: sudo aptitude install libpng-dev
15:51:18  <Ammler> oh, indeed, that should be in the Readme :-$
15:51:38  <SpComb^> the libpng bit actually is
15:51:46  <SpComb^> the make dirs is missing
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16:15:20  <SpComb^> Ammler: http://qmsk.net/~terom/openttd/scripts/make-giant-screenshot
16:15:55  <SpComb^> Ammler: you have to compile openttd with a blitter, so for me that meant installing libsdl-dev
16:16:44  <SpComb^> although that temporarily runs it as a dedicated server, one could probably patch in a --giant-screenshot option
16:17:24  <SpComb^> Ammler: also, when you build the cache, I highly suggest you use --background 0xD7
16:19:44  <Ammler> well, that means it isn't possible to make a screen on a dedicated server without the whole X
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16:20:10  <SpComb^> Ammler: no, there's no video
16:20:21  <SpComb^> installing libsdl does pull in a bunch of deps, but...
16:20:22  <Terkhen> hello
16:22:08  <Ammler> well, we aren't root on the server our ps is running
16:22:27  *** |Terkhen| [~Terkhen@166.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
16:23:01  <SpComb^> then generate the giant screenshots somewhere else? :)
16:23:03  *** Hackykid [~quassel@dyn241-hg.nbw.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:23:08  <Ammler> yeah :-)
16:23:29  <SpComb^> I presume it would be possible to compile the blitters without SDL
16:23:30  <Ammler> might be better anyway :-P
16:24:15  <Rubidium> SpComb^: yeah, I presume that too :)
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16:25:26  <SpComb^> Rubidium: I couldn't find any ./configure option for it, though
16:26:18  <Rubidium> SpComb^: that's because there's nothing disabling it at compile time
16:26:38  <SpComb^> hmm, a dedicated build includes the blitters?
16:26:38  <peter1138> there is if you're building dedicated only
16:27:04  <peter1138> in source.list, just remove the if/else/endif block in the blitter section
16:27:12  <Rubidium> hmm, really?
16:27:19  <SpComb^> ah, quite
16:27:23  <Rubidium> used to be not that case
16:27:34  <peter1138> yeah i changed it
16:27:35  * SpComb^ wonders what magic is used to register the blitters
16:27:44  <peter1138> SpComb^, c++
16:27:46  <TrueBrain> Factories! :)
16:28:07  <peter1138> @openttd commit 14913
16:28:07  <DorpsGek> peter1138: Commit by peter1138 :: r14913 trunk/source.list (2009-01-08 14:33:32 UTC)
16:28:08  <DorpsGek> peter1138: -Codechange: (Well, Buildchange:) Don't include unnecessary blitters or drivers when built as dedicated-only.
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16:28:48  <SpComb^> Ammler: you can hack source.list then
16:28:56  <Ammler> :-)
16:29:14  <Ammler> yes, now I need to translate your lighty config to apache config
16:29:20  <peter1138> hmm, how do i show AV settings and patch level on a debian system?
16:29:26  <SpComb^> Ammler: you can run bin/dev-server for testing
16:29:48  <blathijs> peter1138: AV settings?
16:29:52  <peter1138> quite
16:29:56  <SpComb^> Ammler: although it has some memcached stuff hardcoded in it, so either install memcached or remove those lines
16:30:34  <peter1138> patch level: show the latest installed patch/hotfix
16:30:45  <peter1138> yeah right, because all OSes are like windows
16:30:59  <jonty-comp> if only
16:31:04  <SpComb^> peter1138: is this your security certification thing again?
16:31:07  <peter1138> yeah
16:31:19  <SpComb^> call them and tell them they're silly
16:31:29  <blathijs> peter1138: Ah, anti-virus? :-)
16:31:36  <SpComb^> peter1138: what certification?
16:31:38  <peter1138> yeah, sorry
16:31:39  <blathijs> peter1138: You could give the latest DSA number?
16:31:40  <peter1138> cat /etc/debian_version
16:31:40  <peter1138> 5.0.3
16:31:45  <peter1138> does that count? :s
16:32:00  <peter1138> blathijs, where would that be?
16:32:00  <blathijs> patched for all DSA's up to DSA-<somenumber>
16:32:11  <blathijs> peter1138: security.debian.org? :-)
16:32:29  <Ammler> SpComb^: what is module werkzeug? (http://pastebin.ca/1766697)
16:32:39  <SpComb^> Ammler: python-werkzeug on debian
16:32:50  <peter1138> right, but i need to show that it *is* patched
16:33:59  <blathijs> peter1138: Well, if you recentely upgraded, than you should be patched against all published DSA's AFAIK :-p
16:34:07  <SpComb^> Ammler: if it complains about memcache stuff, then you can skip that by just removing the memcache/cache stuff from dev-server
16:34:16  <blathijs> peter1138: But well, that's not really helpful, I guess
16:34:18  <SpComb^> cache = None
16:34:26  <Ammler> well, it seems there is no werkzeug for suse
16:35:19  <peter1138> nope. *i* know it's up to date (and i also know that doesn't mean it's secure, of course) but they want ... proof :s
16:35:48  <SpComb^> Ammler: you can "install" it with a symlink
16:36:12  <blathijs> peter1138: For what, exactly?
16:36:23  <SpComb^> i.e. http://pypi.python.org/packages/source/W/Werkzeug/Werkzeug-0.5.1.zip + unzip + setup.py build + ln -s .../Werkzeug-0.5.1/build/lib/werkzeug/ .../pngtile/lib
16:36:39  <peter1138> pci-dss
16:37:05  <peter1138> or rather, for the auditors of
16:37:24  <bartavelle> peter1138: apt-get update, check that all your source work and you have security, then apt-get upgrade, and it tells you how many packages need to be updated
16:37:32  <bartavelle> if it says 0, you have proof it is up to date
16:37:46  <Rubidium> peter1138: or wait a few days and say it's 5.0.4 :)
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16:39:01  <peter1138> bartavelle, that's probably the closest :(
16:39:25  <bartavelle> PCI-DSS is BS anyway, just lie to them
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16:40:01  <peter1138> i know it's BS :)
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16:43:41  <Belugas> we all know it's freaking BS
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16:56:09  <peter1138> heh
16:56:16  <peter1138> "last record screenshot"
16:56:27  <peter1138> "provide screenshot of last instance of full PAN"
16:56:28  <nicecupoftea> Time for a cup of coffee
16:56:31  <peter1138> yeah, really
16:56:58  <peter1138> who would store full PANs from transaction data in a database?
16:57:14  <peter1138> actually probablys somebody does :s
16:57:20  <blathijs> PAN?
16:58:47  <Belugas> personal account Number
16:58:57  <Belugas> short for credit card number
16:59:00  <Belugas> kinda
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17:03:10  <peter1138> all sorts of bullshit
17:03:29  <peter1138> ideally, for pci-dss, we'd not do anything with credit cards, hehe
17:03:44  <peter1138> especially not store any details
17:05:38  <Ammler> SpComb^: dev_server doesn't find the libs in pngtile/lib
17:06:03  <SpComb^> Ammler: right, you need to run it with the environment magic
17:06:12  <SpComb^> LD_LIBRARY_PATH="lib" PYTHONPATH="lib:." ./bin/dev-server
17:06:49  <SpComb^> and you also need to compile the pypngtile.so extension.. :/
17:06:58  <SpComb^> for which you need cython and the python dev headers
17:07:00  <Belugas> but wehn we do have to deal with stored card numbers (sometimes required by banks), we should have better protection then banks themselves :S
17:07:07  <Belugas> go fucking figure...
17:07:20  <SpComb^> Ammler: I could write a web frontend in C instead :)
17:09:12  <Ammler> hmm, yes, still doesn't work, so I guess, easyier to make it running with apache?
17:09:21  <SpComb^> fonsinchen: tsk, your cargodist/master compiles with warnings
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17:09:34  <SpComb^> Ammler: did you compile the pypngtile.so extension?
17:09:46  <Ammler> no, it complains about that
17:09:47  <SpComb^> Ammler: it won't work without... the Python frontend needs to use the C backend library
17:10:06  <Ammler> ah, I would need that for fcgi too?
17:10:11  *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@21.140.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd
17:10:11  <SpComb^> of course
17:10:41  <SpComb^> I can send you the cython'd .c file if you don't have Cython, but you'll still need the python dev headers to run `setup.py build_ext -i`
17:10:54  <SpComb^> (well, `python setup.py build_ext -i`)
17:11:16  <SpComb^> fonsinchen: src/table/station_land.h, specifically
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17:13:24  <Ammler> cython is available from suse repos
17:14:06  <SpComb^> cython's still adding major features recently, so it's a little unknown if a given version will work with a given .pyx :/
17:14:11  <SpComb^> but it's worth a try
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17:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> [16:46] <Belugas> ... and we are in winter :( <-- a friend of mine came back from canada and he complained that here the temperature is 20?C lower than there...
17:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> he was in vancouver, though...
17:15:35  <Ammler> SpComb^: seems not. http://pastebin.ca/1766747
17:15:57  <Ammler> version 0.10.3
17:16:16  <SpComb^> Ammler: huh, stupid - but you might be able to work around that by just adding a 'ctypedef int size_t' to the start of the python/pypngtile.pyx
17:16:38  <SpComb^> I'm running 0.11.2
17:17:54  *** woldemar [~world@188.122.251.73] has joined #openttd
17:18:34  <SpComb^> Ammler: or download http://qmsk.net/~terom/stuff/pypngtile.c and stick it into python/, then it should skip the cython step
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17:19:02  <SpComb^> any dist releases that I make will include that anyways...
17:19:08  *** Hackykid [~quassel@wlan-199009.nbw.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:19:52  <nicecupoftea> XML based NewGRF NFO? :/
17:20:04  <jonty-comp> ooh
17:20:14  <jonty-comp> I always wanted to use XML in GRFs
17:20:16  <nicecupoftea> gah
17:20:18  <nicecupoftea> wrong window
17:20:19  <nicecupoftea> ignore that
17:20:24  <jonty-comp> :(
17:20:39  <nicecupoftea> it won't be ready for months, anyway
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17:22:30  <SpComb^> har har
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17:23:48  <Ammler> do I need that pyhton path to the env too?
17:26:21  <Ammler> SpComb^: http://pastebin.ca/1766764
17:26:31  <Rubidium> Belugas: that's because (big) banks can never fail
17:26:33  <Ammler> (at least, if I am able to run it, everyone can ;-)
17:27:53  <SpComb^> Ammler: you need the pypngtile.so in PYTHONPATH
17:28:08  * Belugas laughs hard at Rubidium's assessmemt :D
17:28:59  <Rubidium> Belugas: and the worst thing is, if they make a big loss they can lend money for free and give themselves huge bonuses
17:29:15  <Rubidium> so for the bank any situation is win-win
17:29:40  <Belugas> yeah...
17:29:45  <Ammler> SpComb^: how do I build that lib?
17:29:49  * Belugas wants to fund a bank
17:30:03  <rait> is there some way to turn on extended debugging messages to file?
17:30:25  <Rubidium> rait: >
17:30:40  <Belugas> [12:20] <jonty-comp> I always wanted to use XML in GRFs  <--- that's insanity, profanity, wasting-timy, uselessy
17:30:41  <Rubidium> specifically: openttd -d9 > file
17:30:49  <rait> yes, but can't you force more info out of it?
17:31:03  <rait> okay
17:31:18  <rait> -d9 does the magic?
17:31:31  <Rubidium> but if it's hanging in the shutdown of the sound driver then there's not much information (if any at all) about that event
17:31:52  <jonty-comp> Belugas: oh well, I will always be terrible at NFO anyway
17:32:06  <SpComb^> Ammler: `python setup.py build_ext -i` will compile the stuff in python/
17:32:21  <SpComb^> Ammler: and if you dump the pypngtile.c in there, it shouldn't invoke cython
17:32:49  <SpComb^> I should integrate that into the Makefile, but that hasn't happaned yet
17:33:33  <Ammler> well, I still have gcc errors
17:33:51  <TrueBrain> kill them
17:33:52  <SpComb^> errors from the pypngtile.c?
17:34:01  <SpComb^> make sure you have the Python.h
17:35:25  <Ammler> right, checking python-devel, I assume
17:35:38  <jonty-comp> this sounds confusing, you should've just written it in php!
17:35:40  * jonty-comp runs away
17:37:45  <Belugas> cool... generating a grf using a web page...
17:38:02  <Belugas> php->xml->nfo->grf
17:38:04  <Belugas> wow!!!
17:38:11  <Ammler> ok, seems working now the "cache issue" :-)
17:38:14  * Belugas runs even further away
17:39:08  <SpComb^> Ammler: make sure you use --background 0xD7
17:39:19  <glx> <@Rubidium> specifically: openttd -d9 > file <-- on windows a conversion to console mode may be needed
17:39:49  <SpComb^> jonty-comp: it wouldn't be possible to write this in pure PHP
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17:39:52  <rait> Rubidium, no output makes it to file, all end's up in terminal
17:40:14  <planetmaker> read glx' comment, rait ^
17:40:20  <glx> yes -d opens a terminal window because it's a GUI app
17:41:01  <glx> http://devs.openttd.org/~glx/convert.zip should work for win64 too
17:41:06  *** bartavelle is now known as bartaway
17:41:13  <nicecupoftea> I'm partial to XML
17:41:43  <Ammler> for the server?
17:41:45  <nicecupoftea> There's a wealth of parsers already available, and it's human readable.
17:41:49  <Ammler> SpComb^:
17:42:13  <Ammler> it woks now on my local desktop
17:43:06  <TrueBrain> Belugas: stop directing people to me with questions you know end up in endless debates :p :p :p
17:43:41  <SpComb^> Ammler: ok, great... the build process just needs a little improvement :)
17:44:04  <rait> since there is no point in doing this, i'm abandoning my idea to save a pointless log
17:45:26  <Ammler> SpComb^: the --background should be used fro building the png cache, I assume?
17:45:53  <planetmaker> Ammler, server-side screenshots or what are you two guys working on?
17:47:45  <Ammler> he, a 50MB giant screen is using 500 MB cache :-)
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17:48:26  <peter1138> you may have heard of compression
17:48:28  <Ammler> so our archive with 150 games, hmm
17:48:31  <Eddi|zuHause> <nicecupoftea> [...] XML [is] human readable. <-- that's a big lie...
17:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and especially, it's not any more human readable than well-commented NFO is...
17:49:59  <Belugas> haow...
17:50:03  <Belugas> sorry TrueBrain
17:50:05  <peter1138> well-commented NFO... hehehe
17:50:12  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
17:50:13  <planetmaker> ^ If I had to re-invent the grf wheel XML wouldn't be my choice ;-)
17:50:33  * TrueBrain hugs Belugas :)
17:50:41  <Xaroth> :o
17:51:06  <Belugas> purrrrrrrrrrr purrrrrrrrrrrr
17:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause> XML is so general-purpose, it's no use for any _specific_ purpose...
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17:51:40  <peter1138> nfo probably wouldn't be my choice either ;)
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17:52:18  <planetmaker> hehe :-) Neither mine. Alas
17:52:42  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: stop doing that :p
17:52:49  <Xaroth> stop doing what?
17:52:50  <planetmaker> :-O
17:52:53  <Xaroth> :o
17:52:56  * Xaroth hides
17:53:25  <TrueBrain> @kick Xaroth hide harder
17:53:25  *** Xaroth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [hide harder]
17:53:30  *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@86.92.135.101] has joined #openttd
17:53:33  <Xaroth> grr
17:54:16  <planetmaker> Xar:oth maybe ? ;-)
17:54:31  <nicecupoftea> Eddi: spot the readability difference :) http://i.imgur.com/vgHup.png
17:54:42  <nicecupoftea> neither are commented
17:55:26  <Xaroth> planetmaker: eh?
17:55:32  <TrueBrain> I like it planetmaker :)
17:55:38  <planetmaker> a way to hide your :o :-P
17:55:49  <Xaroth> hah
17:55:55  <Xaroth> bah
17:55:58  <Xaroth> erroneous nick
17:56:01  <Xaroth> can't use : in nicks :/
17:57:12  <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, and now compare the information density, given you know that the real sprites are just followed by x and y coordinates / offsets
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18:00:44  <nicecupoftea> I'd trade that 15% file increase for the massive savings in "I don't get NFO lol" threads any day
18:01:00  <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, the NFO equivalent of the right side would be: -1 * XX  01 <n> 01 "Sherlock Holmes: Complete Novels A" 02 "Sir Arthur Canon Doyle" 00
18:01:33  <nicecupoftea> I was trying to make the point within this hour :)
18:01:37  <frosch123> did i miss some funny forum topic?
18:01:39  <planetmaker> with XX and <n> being numbers. <n> = 2 actually and XX the byte length of the whole thing
18:01:55  <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, yes, but for me the rhs is not readable.
18:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> nicecupoftea: so, what's your attempt of making an Action 6 "readable" while still keeping to understand what's actually going on?
18:02:28  <nicecupoftea> What's the ISBN of The Great Gatsby?
18:02:51  <Rubidium> nicecupoftea: something ending with a X?
18:03:00  <planetmaker> hehe @ Eddi
18:03:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: don't copy the silly action 6 case, hardly 0.1% of grfs use action 6
18:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's the typical DaleStan-question ;)
18:03:28  <Prof_Frink> Now that's a brilliant idea.
18:03:33  *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9C36.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
18:03:35  <TinoDidriksen> Storage format doesn't matter whatsoever as long as you have tools to work with it.
18:03:48  <Rubidium> nicecupoftea: so far I've found at least 4 ISBNs, so I reckon you would be able to fin it yourself relatively easily too
18:04:09  <nicecupoftea> Oh don't be so obtuse!
18:04:18  <nicecupoftea> I'm doing the trolling here
18:04:21  <planetmaker> amazon helps
18:04:40  <Rubidium> oh, in that case...
18:04:44  <Rubidium> there
18:05:01  <planetmaker> lol
18:05:09  * Eddi|zuHause spots a place on The List :p
18:05:13  <planetmaker> eod it seems ;-)
18:06:29  <glx> anyway action 2 will be fun ;)
18:07:27  <planetmaker> action2 is already fun. Why should it be less fun anywhere else :-P
18:10:16  <SpComb^> Ammler: yes - if you use `ls -slh`, you'll see that the 500MB .cache actually occupies less disk space :)
18:10:23  <SpComb^> Ammler: but yes, the .cache files will be big..
18:14:44  *** woldemar [~world@213.178.34.57] has joined #openttd
18:15:30  * fjb wouldn't want to type XML by hand.
18:15:41  <SpComb^> fjb: use Eclipse instead
18:17:34  <fjb> What a win over simply typing nfo in any texteditor. And who makes the Eclipse module for the special nfo version of xml? Not to mention the DTD.
18:17:40  <Ammler> SpComb^: you need cython also if you have the .c file
18:18:25  <Ammler> http://pastebin.ca/1766847
18:18:47  <frosch123> did i mention, that ttdviewer is parameterised using and .xsd validated .xml :p
18:19:05  <SpComb^> Ammler: hmm yes, it imports it..
18:19:45  <SpComb^> you can remove all the two lines that have 'build_ext' and change the .pyx to a .c
18:20:53  <SpComb^> I tried to skip the setup.py and do it right from the Makefile, but that ended up being a bit difficult
18:21:24  *** Lord [~Lord@guest-docking-nat-1-020.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
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18:21:58  <fjb> XML is usable as a configuration file format and good for Document interchange. It is even useful as an instant messenger protocol, but I doubt its usability as a programming language syntax.
18:22:12  <SpComb^> fjb: disagree on the configuration file format
18:22:34  <glx> ini is good enough for configuration
18:22:48  <SpComb^> ini isn't always enough either
18:22:55  <SpComb^> now lua, that's a good configuration file format :)
18:22:55  * nicecupoftea backs Lua
18:23:01  <nicecupoftea> snap!
18:23:08  <fjb> SpComb^: Depends on what you need. ini is often good enough but not always.
18:23:21  <SpComb^> indeed
18:24:07  <nicecupoftea> Lua's a lovely lightweight scripting language in its own right
18:24:24  <fjb> XML ist good for machine to machine communication, not for human to machine.
18:24:52  <nicecupoftea> XML occupies the middle ground
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18:27:02  * frosch123 ponders mentioning the semantical similiarities between xml and action2 chains
18:27:56  *** |Terkhen| [~Terkhen@166.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:28:28  * fjb would prefer a macro assembler.
18:29:03  <frosch123> just that action2 are not imperative, nor touring complete :p
18:29:17  <nicecupoftea> /me appends XML NewGRFs to the 'Multithreaded 3D engine' roadmap entry
18:29:21  <fjb> Bad action2.
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18:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18920 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt dutch.txt unfinished/vietnamese.txt):
18:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 4 changes by Maccie123
18:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
18:45:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 638 changes by myquartz
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18:46:37  <frosch123> quick, we need a new language, the number of untranslated strings is about to drop below 20000 :o
18:48:21  <Rubidium> Maltese anyone?
18:50:28  <nicecupoftea> Esperanto?
18:51:03  <frosch123> esperanto, ido and friends are already contained in the 20406
18:51:04  <Prof_Frink> Orangutan.
18:51:30  <__ln__> Niederdeutsch.
18:52:30  <peter1138> or a new patch
18:53:50  <__ln__> Quenya
18:54:06  <Prof_Frink> Klingon.
18:55:00  <Ammler> frosch123: support iso3 languages and I could translate to mine...
18:55:02  <frosch123> Assamese has a nice is639 code
18:55:04  <frosch123> +o
18:55:56  <nicecupoftea> +v?
18:58:12  <fjb> Ammler: R?toromanisch?
18:58:34  <frosch123> Ammler: was there any decision about de_CH ? i mean we also have en_GB, en_US, pt_BR, pt_PT, ...
18:59:06  <Ammler> frosch123: de_CH would be possible
18:59:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I believe (in general) it is best to wait for WT3.1 (if ever) before doing more of those languages. Then you can make a sublanguage of a main language ;)
18:59:28  <TrueBrain> (no idea if that is for the best, but okay :p)
18:59:35  <frosch123> though i have no idea about ##winlangid :)
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19:00:04  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the initial idea was to keep the number of untranslated strings above 20000 :p
19:00:13  <TrueBrain> then that won't help :p
19:00:32  <TrueBrain> I can fake the number for you?
19:00:55  <TrueBrain> I wonder if I can find enough hours free to review the whole of Dutch before 1.0.0 final ...
19:01:46  <Ammler> de_CH isn't really interesting, but gsw would be :-)
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19:08:25  <Zuu> "1970s" is that 1970-1979 in English? (IIRC it is when you speak about 100 years of time the English got the years 'wrong')
19:09:35  <SpComb^> Ammler: I had a go at fixing up the setup.py and `make dist` - the dist version should be easier to build, they include the pypngtile.c, and `make lib/pypngtile.so` should work with a little luck now
19:12:37  <Ammler> SpComb^: my notes I made about: http://pastebin.ca/1766909
19:13:48  <SpComb^> http://frrb.qmsk.net/~terom/pngtile/ <-- so these
19:14:02  <SpComb^> I added lib/pypngtile.so to all, so it should build by default without running setup.py
19:15:18  <SpComb^> so the dist versions don't need: a) make dirs b) setup.py - but the Makefile stuff for building the python extension is a bit of a hack
19:15:27  *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
19:15:38  <SpComb^> but ah, build scripts aren't so important as long as they work :P
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19:20:14  <nicecupoftea> Zuu: 1970s or '70s = 1970 to 1979, correct. We do not get any years wrong whatsoever.
19:22:35  <frosch123> ... at least 9 years of the eighth decase of the twentieth century
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19:27:14  <Zuu> Thanks
19:27:24  <nicecupoftea> Zuu are you still developing PAXlink?
19:27:45  <Zuu> Not a lot, but there is some improvements in SVN.
19:28:02  <nicecupoftea> That's a shame.
19:28:02  <Zuu> It is just that there is enormous amount of things that could be done.
19:28:19  <nicecupoftea> I think it would make a good addition to Pathzilla
19:28:38  <nicecupoftea> Using buses locally then connecting to the higher level network using airports
19:29:32  <Zuu> I've implemented a herustics that re-arange town-to-town connections to maximize profit. However the re-arangeer isn't really as good as it could be at the moment.
19:29:38  <planetmaker> go make that connection, then, nicecupoftea ;-)
19:29:44  <planetmaker> they're GPL licensed afaik.
19:30:01  <Zuu> IIRC all AIs on BaNaNaS use GPL v2.
19:30:03  <nicecupoftea> I'm sure they are! I've got a couple of things on the wishlist, but work comes first :/
19:30:36  <planetmaker> I still miss an AI developed by more than one person. That'd have better potential concerning maintenance.
19:30:50  <planetmaker> and more attention to the nasty details and advanced concepts.
19:30:51  <Zuu> One thing in the SVN-version that works fairly good is that it doesn't put that many bus stops anymore so it maintains a good rating in the town.
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19:31:18  <nicecupoftea> I think the AI developments are the most interesting part of OpenTTD
19:31:24  <Zuu> planetmaker: Indeed, that I think would work better for the future.
19:31:40  <nicecupoftea> I'd love to see a competition like the Infinite Mario AI contest
19:31:47  <nicecupoftea> but for OpenTTD, of course
19:31:52  <planetmaker> they have been done.
19:32:12  <nicecupoftea> Yes?
19:32:13  <planetmaker> You could also do them yourself locally. Not much effort, just make an AI only game or give yourself an observer company
19:32:37  <planetmaker> there certainly are threads in the NoAI subforum
19:32:53  <planetmaker> they were mostly done when NoAI was still in development, though
19:33:07  <Zuu> Yep, and Rubi made some evil competition maps :-)
19:33:22  <planetmaker> so... there's no quite recent one - but I haven't heart of any ground-breaking changes from most AIs either :-)
19:33:36  <Zuu> One where big parts of the map were at sealevel with water that aten up all the sea-level land. :-)
19:33:41  <planetmaker> But I guess... as usual: many small improvements.
19:34:43  <planetmaker> also, the relative improvements have to become smaller... quite naturally ;-)
19:34:46  <nicecupoftea> Perhaps a genetic AI-creating algorithm is required!
19:35:05  <nicecupoftea> Set it running and come back the following month
19:35:14  <planetmaker> go for it.
19:35:35  <nicecupoftea> I'd rather not.
19:35:49  <nicecupoftea> It would be much easier if someone else did it for me. Preferably for free.
19:36:34  <planetmaker> oh right. Rubi might have a point
19:36:48  <nicecupoftea> Zuu: Does PAXLink orientate the airport bus stations towards the town?
19:37:03  <nicecupoftea> Or are they always on the southern edge?
19:37:10  <Zuu> nicecupoftea: nope, they are always placed at the same edge.
19:37:40  <Zuu> Makes things simplier in the already long code.
19:38:31  <nicecupoftea> Righto.
19:39:11  <Zuu> Counts them to 5130 lines atm. So it is not very big compared to other things but still not just a small script.
19:40:29  <nicecupoftea> Perhaps a community AI is required.
19:40:57  <planetmaker> like the community patch pack(s)
19:41:04  <Zuu> noooo
19:41:13  <Zuu> (not like community patch packs)
19:41:18  <planetmaker> </irony>
19:41:31  <planetmaker> :-)
19:41:39  <Zuu> But perhaps like a few people with enough time get togeather and write it. :-)
19:42:14  <Zuu> I would probably qualify for the task but I've planed to work 45 hours a week on my thesis :-)
19:42:32  <planetmaker> hehe
19:43:12  <Zuu> And I got some nice ideas for Junctioneer too and yesterday a frind showed me the euler project with lots of interesting problems to solve. :-)
19:43:57  <Alberth> you can not (re)define the subject of your thesis? :p
19:44:39  <Zuu> Well it is about traffic engineering so it is not very far, but still not quite the same stuff.
19:50:04  <Zuu> My thesis is related to the analytical models for calculating the capacity of roundabouts using gap-theroy. At best you could apply some gap theory in OpenTTD for railway intersections.
19:51:45  <nicecupoftea> "Solving NP-complete network problems using Open Transport Tycoon" would be better
19:52:01  <nicecupoftea> attempting to solve*
19:53:22  <Zuu> OpenTTD* (TTD doesn't stand for 'Transport Tycoon Deluxe' in the OpenTTD name)
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19:59:12  <nicecupoftea> forgive me
19:59:23  <Zuu> no problem
19:59:28  <TrueBrain> I forgive you
19:59:36  <SpComb^> the trademark lawyers won't
19:59:38  <nicecupoftea> Is it a Master's thesis?
19:59:44  <Zuu> nicecupoftea: Yep
20:00:00  <nicecupoftea> How's it coming along?
20:00:08  <Zuu> Just started one week ago :-)
20:00:16  <nicecupoftea> Due in June?
20:00:22  <Zuu> So I'm at the boring litterature review :-)
20:00:32  <Zuu> Due in June yep.
20:01:12  <nicecupoftea> What is your alma mater?
20:02:00  <Zuu> alma? My program name is "Communications and transport systems" and my focus area is called "Traffic Informatics".
20:02:30  <nicecupoftea> Your college, I mean.
20:02:48  <Zuu> Ah, I'm at Link?ping University in Sweden.
20:03:19  <Tera> ping? ping
20:03:27  <Tera> pong* :<
20:03:27  <Zuu> pong klong
20:04:27  <nicecupoftea> it has a good reputation for control engineering, you must be a good student!
20:05:35  <Zuu> At least the automatic control courses at our program are known to be hard to pass.
20:05:41  <Zuu> course*
20:05:54  <Zuu> is*
20:06:42  <Zuu> But if the university make me a good student I don't know :-)
20:07:24  <SpComb^> silly swedish names
20:07:36  <nicecupoftea> Are you going to apply for a Doctoral position?
20:08:44  <Zuu> Nope, I'm hoping to start working at a company where they do traffic analyses etc.
20:08:45  <SpComb^> huh, dreamspark's product key doesn't give me multiple activations
20:09:06  <planetmaker> hm...
20:09:20  * planetmaker must look up Link?ping. I *think* I've been there already.
20:09:25  <Zuu> Might return to university later but for now I want to get out and work a bit.
20:09:27  <planetmaker> Do they have an agricultural branch?
20:09:32  *** andythenorth [~andytheno@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
20:09:43  <planetmaker> ^Zuu
20:10:01  <Zuu> Hmm, not that I am aware of.
20:10:20  <planetmaker> then I mix up towns maybe :-)
20:11:06  <Zuu> They are mostly in technology stuff. The technical part has 15 000 students and the entire university is 25 000 students.
20:11:48  *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C2FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
20:11:59  <Zuu> The others are medical stuff, economy, arts and probably some thing else important that I have forgotten.
20:12:14  <Zuu> something*
20:15:04  <Ammler> SpComb^: did you test the script you made?
20:15:12  <Ammler> (to creating a giant screen)
20:15:24  <SpComb^> Ammler: I think so... might have changed it afterwards
20:15:55  <Ammler> it closed openttd without making the screen
20:15:57  <Zuu> planetmaker: Lund might have an agricultural branch.
20:16:22  <Ammler> he, the server is still working on my first screen :-)
20:16:32  <SpComb^> Ammler: the screenshot goes somewhere random
20:16:41  <SpComb^> I found it in my ~/.openttd/
20:16:42  <planetmaker> nah, it wasn't Lund :-)
20:18:15  <Alberth> SpComb^: random as in the same directory of openttd.cfg?
20:19:01  <TrueBrain> but which openttd.cfg is it using? :p
20:19:06  <SpComb^> Alberth: dunno, I ran ./foo/bin/openttd... there's a ./foo/bin/openttd.cfg, but it went into ~/.openttd/
20:22:10  <Zuu> SpComb^: In that case shouldn't you cd into the bin-dir and then execute ./openttd?
20:22:22  <Alberth> it doesn't seem to use foo/bin/openttd.cfg then
20:23:22  <Alberth> eg load is also relative to openttd.cfg, and at my system it makes a difference to do ./foo/bin/openttd  vs  cd foo/bin ; ./openttd
20:23:25  <planetmaker> well.. skara sounds different than Link?ping :-p
20:23:26  <Zuu> All programs will by default have the same current directory as you are standing in when you execute them.
20:23:39  *** dragonhorseboy [~zerovnc@modemcable179.142-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
20:23:41  <dragonhorseboy> hey
20:24:01  * SpComb^ is on the phone with Microsoft automated product activiation service
20:24:08  <Zuu> planetmaker: Was it in Skara that the aricultural branch is located?
20:24:09  <Alberth> hangup now!
20:24:18  <SpComb^> nein!
20:24:19  <SpComb^> too late
20:24:26  *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9C36.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
20:24:29  <SpComb^> sending me the SMS now
20:24:43  <SpComb^> fun disclaimer about how they don't store your number or personal details
20:24:44  <planetmaker> Zuu, I *think* so.
20:25:01  <planetmaker> but I wouldn't give my life for it ;-)
20:25:53  <Zuu> IIRC they have one of the major churches there but it isn't as far as I'm aware a university town but for sure it could have a branch there.
20:25:57  <SpComb^> so yay, now my Windows Server 2008 R2 is activated
20:26:13  <SpComb^> because I called a random number and typed in some random numbers and then got an SMS with some random numbers back and typed those in
20:26:19  <SpComb^> but I guess that deterrs piracy
20:26:34  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb just a OT question but I take it you took the server offline or did the poor computer hiccup?
20:26:47  <SpComb^> dragonhorseboy: took it offline for the giant-screenshot script that I wrote for Ammler :)
20:27:13  <planetmaker> Zuu, I don't quite recall; it was my sister who studied there for a few months. And I was only once there... 6 years ago.
20:27:15  <dragonhorseboy> oh ok..I was going to take a look and see if the game ever progressed anywhere at all or not since yesterday :P
20:27:20  <SpComb^> nope
20:27:33  <dragonhorseboy> ah ok
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20:28:08  <dragonhorseboy> well anyway .. on-topic (why did that seem funny that 'on' and 'off' are the same first letter?) question but anyone here know about nfo coding a locomotive?
20:28:14  <dragonhorseboy> there's one thing I've been trying to figure out for a while
20:28:37  <nicecupoftea> Man, NFO is so old, get with the times and use XML NewGRF
20:28:57  <dragonhorseboy> nicecupoftea... does xml work with the patch? ;)
20:29:08  <nicecupoftea> alas, it does not work at all :(
20:29:12  <dragonhorseboy> so..there
20:29:14  <dragonhorseboy> :P
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20:29:21  <dragonhorseboy> sorry heh
20:29:42  <Zuu> nicecupoftea: Don't start an NFO / XML war unless it is a war that you want :-p
20:29:53  <nicecupoftea> We have already had one!
20:30:01  <nicecupoftea> I cannot take another
20:30:02  <SpComb^> gah, VS2008 install fails on WS2008R2
20:30:17  <planetmaker> bitching around is quite annoying, though, nicecupoftea
20:30:33  <dragonhorseboy> zuu I'll just pick nfo from the start for compactibility sake and ignore anything that has to do with other one ;)
20:30:38  <dragonhorseboy> but heh :P
20:30:53  <andythenorth> can xml succinctly encode logic?
20:31:00  <andythenorth> nfo is great
20:31:07  <nicecupoftea> oh god, here we go
20:31:21  <andythenorth> xml is a pain in the ass
20:31:24  <nicecupoftea> I'm supporting Lua, anyway
20:31:39  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I've heard that quite often from many people .. and I got to agree with you
20:31:45  <dragonhorseboy> anyway about my actual question...
20:31:53  <planetmaker> nicecupoftea, before you discuss an issue you might want to learn about it before...
20:32:07  <nicecupoftea> lighten up, planetmaker
20:32:09  * andythenorth shuts up
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20:33:43  <TrueBrain> we should put punishements on discusing such things
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20:34:25  <nicecupoftea> Python-esque punishments?
20:34:55  <dragonhorseboy> I've tried look at the action0 wiki on ttdpatch .. I set property 19 to 00 and property 22 to 40 = that'll get me a powered wagon with no exhaust but no way to cancel the steam sound?
20:35:53  <SpComb^> argh, don't tell me that Visual Studio 2008 can't be installed on Windows Server 2008 R2
20:36:18  <TrueBrain> okay
20:36:21  <dragonhorseboy> :/ spcomb
20:38:10  <SpComb^> You must use the Role Management Tool to install or configure Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5
20:38:36  <dragonhorseboy> heh
20:39:18  *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@21.140.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
20:39:27  <Ammler> http://maps.openttdcoop.org:8000 <-- is that slow because of the dev-server?
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20:40:21  <SpComb^> a little
20:40:35  <dragonhorseboy> ammler takes a while to make initial connection but then downloads quickly otherwise
20:40:54  <SpComb^> the main bottleneck is actually memory
20:41:11  <SpComb^> providing that it compiled with -O2
20:41:46  <SpComb^> Ammler: the dev-server isn't particularly slow, but it's only a single process/thread
20:42:22  <SpComb^> I can do ~1000 of those 256x256 tiles per second on my 3.16Ghz desktop C2D
20:42:35  <SpComb^> projects.qmsk.net is an eight-core 2.0Ghz xeon with 1GB ram
20:42:41  <TrueBrain> impressive :)
20:42:57  <SpComb^> having enough memory to fit the entire .cache helps a lot
20:44:53  <SpComb^> well, sleight exxageration, 1.820s for 1000 random tiles with a warm cache
20:45:37  *** Phalax [~kvirc@84.19.128.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:46:41  <SpComb^> (written to /dev/null, measured using `time ./bin/pngtile data/20100123/1936.png -o /dev/null -W 256 -H 256 --benchmark 1000 --randomize -q`)
20:47:43  <planetmaker> anyway, it's a great tool, SpComb^ :-)
20:48:01  <TrueBrain> it sure looks cool ;)
20:48:08  <SpComb^> just don't be scared with the high VIRT/RES/SHR numbers
20:48:17  <SpComb^> it's just a big mmap(), so the memory use is managed by the kernel
20:48:38  <planetmaker> he... max zoomed-out it IS slow
20:48:42  <SpComb^> very
20:48:44  <TrueBrain> RSS is the only useful number anyway ...
20:48:48  <TrueBrain> VSZ is fake .... :p
20:48:55  <SpComb^> but that's why there's support for memcached
20:48:57  <planetmaker> you don't get faster network connection than I have here right now. And it's loading and loading
20:49:22  <peter1138> You don't?
20:49:33  <SpComb^> caching the tiles at zl=-4 only takes up a couple MB :)
20:49:41  <planetmaker> next step would be a 10GBit network card, peter1138 ;-)
20:49:45  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: how do you do it? (missed all conversation above related to it :p)
20:49:47  *** Muddy [~muddy@47.24.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #openttd
20:49:49  <planetmaker> few workplace pcs have that :-P
20:49:57  <planetmaker> including that connection to the backbone
20:50:04  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: magical C code!
20:50:06  <Alberth> Zuu: you still do maintenance of cluelessplus? v15 just placed its depot wrong  http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/depot_wrongly_placed.png
20:50:23  <Muddy> I had some fun with my 2x24" full hd setup at work today: http://openttd.no/screenshots/openttd_3840x1080.png
20:50:25  <peter1138> planetmaker, 100GBit, come on!
20:50:38  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: I meant: make screenshot once, and process it, or make lots of screenshots?
20:50:57  <planetmaker> peter1138, for your desktop? come on ;-)
20:50:58  *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9C36.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:51:00  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: decode the screenshot into mmap() (500MB for a 512x512 map), and then ecode small PNG's from there
20:51:11  <peter1138> You did say "you don't get faster" ...
20:51:20  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: so yes, it takes a giant screenshot as input
20:51:24  <TrueBrain> decode into mmap, lol :)
20:51:25  <planetmaker> exageration for the sake of clearity ;-)
20:51:44  <Zuu> Alberth: Yep, I still try to fix bugs that people report. Maybe not the same day or week but whenever I do an update I usually try to fix all reported bugs for it.
20:51:50  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: nice idea :)
20:51:51  <SpComb^> well yes, it passes a pointer into mmap()'d memory to png_read_row
20:52:10  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: then either you have no clue what mmap is or what it does :p But okay, I understand what you are trying to say :)
20:52:39  <Alberth> Zuu: ok, I am not in a hurry
20:53:20  <Zuu> Alberth: If you don't mind can you post it to the CluelessPlus thread? That way I'll have the least chance of forgetting it.
20:53:29  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: well, it reads/writes the pixel data directly from/to an mmap()'d memory region
20:53:47  <Alberth> sure, I was just wondering whether that was needed :)
20:53:49  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: lets not go into that :) But still, nice job :)
20:54:00  *** Muddy is now known as Muddy-
20:54:02  <SpComb^> so the processes have like 1332M VIRT, 205M RES and 199M SHR
20:54:16  *** Muddy [muddy@ipv6-gw.s2.netthost.no] has joined #openttd
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20:55:45  <TrueBrain> depends where you mmap it to :)
20:55:57  <SpComb^> Ammler: so make sure it's compiled with -O2, deploy a memcached, and run as many FastCGI/WSGI/whatever processes as you have CPU cores
20:56:19  <SpComb^> http://hg.qmsk.net/pngtile/file/81d1cad8b588/src/lib/cache.c#l244
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20:57:04  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: why don't you run a static application over it, which cuts the map in very small pngs, and store that on the disk? Disk access is relative fast for any (sane) httpd
20:57:20  <TrueBrain> (using io-passhtrough, for example, moves files from one end of the kernel to the other, allowing direct access)
20:57:51  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: you could do that as well, but you'd have a *lot* of those tiles
20:57:55  *** Muddy- [~muddy@47.24.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #openttd [Leaving]
20:58:32  <SpComb^> encoding the 256x256 and 512x512 PNGs (zl=0, zl=-1) from cache is fast enough to compare favourably with static files imo
20:58:58  <SpComb^> and then the tiles for the higher zoom levels can be cached (memcached, http cache, whatever)
20:59:26  <Ammler> lol
20:59:26  <TrueBrain> well, if I take my latest work on mapgen, I stored static files for a few zoom-levels. Depending on the required zoom, it collected those files. Increased everything a lot
20:59:35  <Ammler> the server is using 1GB now :-)
20:59:41  <TrueBrain> (mostly because you no longer had to recalculate zooms :p)
20:59:44  <Belugas> DUH!!!!
20:59:51  <Belugas> oooopsss.... sorry..
20:59:55  <Belugas> wrong channel
21:00:01  <SpComb^> Ammler: the memory use is managed by the kernel's page cache
21:00:33  <SpComb^> so it should be smart enough to drop the .cache stuff from memory when it's needed for something else
21:00:43  <SpComb^> but yes... page cache thrashing sucks
21:00:52  *** Muddy [muddy@ipv6-gw.s2.netthost.no] has quit [Quit: changing servers]
21:01:01  *** Muddy [muddy@playing.OpenTTD.no] has joined #openttd
21:02:08  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: tried picking up the file and mmaping it to the shm part of your memory? Could give you a nice speed-boost
21:02:23  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: what's shm got to do with anything?
21:02:37  <TrueBrain> just for fun, try it
21:02:56  <Alberth> Belugas: the discussed topics do not give many hints about the nature of the channel :)
21:02:58  <TrueBrain> (instead of your memcache, for example)
21:03:26  <SpComb^> it's mmap'd with MAP_SHARED, so it's shared across all the processes already
21:03:34  <SpComb^> (and PROT_READ only for the viewer)
21:03:53  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: the memcached is used for the 256x256 output PNGs only
21:04:11  <SpComb^> mmap() is used for the raw pixel data
21:05:51  <TrueBrain> k, just trying to help :) Spend a lot of time speeding up Mapgen, so I have my fair share of knowledge about map manipulation and its speed ;)
21:06:17  <SpComb^> not sure what you mean with "mmap it to the shm part of your memory"
21:06:57  <SpComb^> but the input .png file isn't used at all for generating the smaller output PNGs
21:08:45  <TrueBrain> yeah, I like the idea; now live map view :p Mwhahaha
21:09:04  <SpComb^> I did that earlier
21:09:15  <SpComb^> but it really sucks because you can't cache anything
21:09:44  *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd
21:11:46  <TrueBrain> bah, you made me open mapgen
21:11:48  <TrueBrain> grr
21:12:20  <SpComb^> what mapgen is this?
21:12:33  <TrueBrain> v2
21:12:45  <SpComb^> not very googleable
21:13:10  <TrueBrain> one of my non-published projects :)
21:13:12  *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!]
21:13:18  <TrueBrain> http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/
21:13:22  <TrueBrain> be careful with which you open
21:13:29  <TrueBrain> 22MiB is too big for most browsers :p
21:13:45  * SpComb^ 64-bit!
21:13:49  <Belugas> hi Alberth.  It was something about an unexpected delay in the left channel of my part, while playing with peter1138.  I realized it was a wrong positionning of the wave file
21:14:13  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.213.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:14:24  <TrueBrain> MASS EFFECT JUST CRASHED! NOOOOOOOOooooooo :(
21:14:27  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.218.120] has joined #openttd
21:14:28  <Xaroth> lol
21:14:32  <TrueBrain> stfu Xaroth
21:14:36  <TrueBrain> go play with your girlfriend
21:14:53  <Xaroth> she's asleep now :)
21:15:09  <TrueBrain> already?!
21:15:31  <Xaroth> yep
21:15:45  <Xaroth> I have better stamina then her ;)
21:15:46  <SpComb^> hmm, no, it didn't really like image007
21:15:53  <Belugas> girls amd wifes tend to fall asleep quite fast indeed.
21:16:10  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: so heightmaps?
21:16:12  <TrueBrain> nope, FF gets dumped here too when I try
21:16:14  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: yes
21:16:43  <SpComb^> I only handle the big PNG image once, when I decode it to .cache - after that, everything comes from the .cache
21:17:13  <TrueBrain> I so hope hope hope hope it did the autosave correctly, and it is loading it now ...
21:18:07  <TrueBrain> 'Resume' gave me an older game (ME2 is fucked up like that) .. lets hope 'Autosave' isn't damaged ....
21:18:29  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: mapgen handles 11GB of initial source data :p
21:18:32  <TrueBrain> YIPPIE!!! :)
21:19:02  <SpComb^> thrash thrash thrash
21:20:02  <TrueBrain> thrash what?
21:20:17  <SpComb^> if it load it from disk
21:22:43  <Alberth> Zuu: pathzilla seems to give its ore a nice tour around the factory first :p  http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=123300
21:23:07  <Alberth> (it crashedm just added a bug report)
21:23:10  *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd
21:23:15  <Alberth> s/m/,/
21:23:31  <Zuu> :-)
21:24:17  <Zuu> I know PathZilla like to build loopbacks for its drive-trough stops.
21:25:22  <Zuu> Ah, reading your post, it actually only uses that one station.
21:27:18  <Alberth> it only has that one station.
21:28:40  <Alberth> lorries do not get unloaded at all, so they all just circle around all the time
21:29:46  <dragonhorseboy> heh
21:30:07  <Zuu> At least from my memory I recall that Zutty make a farily static calculation method for calculating the amount of trucks needed and does not adopt the fleet based on the amout of cargo waiting or so.
21:30:24  <Zuu> use a fairly..*
21:32:11  * SpComb^ wonders how to show file extensions in WS2008R2
21:32:18  <SpComb^> they removed the menus :P
21:33:06  <dragonhorseboy> industry output + rv or rail wagon capacity + distance involved to the receiving industry = calculate required purchases
21:33:15  *** pod [~pod@client-81-98-18-170.cht-bng-013.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #openttd
21:33:18  <dragonhorseboy> thats the way I would had the ai figure it out but eh
21:33:26  <pod> Hi
21:33:33  <pod> how do I reduce the size of the MP chat box?
21:33:43  <dragonhorseboy> pod...by unpausing the game?
21:33:46  <pod> oh :D
21:33:47  <pod> haha
21:33:49  <pod> genius
21:33:58  <dragonhorseboy> pod..why did you think nothing was moving
21:34:01  <dragonhorseboy> :p
21:34:03  <pod> I knowit's caused
21:34:05  <pod> paused*
21:34:08  <pod> but the box is massive
21:34:09  *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd
21:34:15  <pod> I'm talking to my friend, etc
21:34:24  <dragonhorseboy> thats what irc or msn are for next time :P
21:34:24  <pod> the box takes up the left of the screen ;'(
21:34:29  <pod> we're on those :D
21:35:52  <Alberth> I always put my irc client underneath the openttd window with just a few lines visible
21:36:05  <SpComb^> hmm, great, cmd.exe crashes when I run `make bundle_zip`
21:38:15  <Alberth> night
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21:39:23  <dragonhorseboy> hm guess I'll have to find a coder to hire then if this stupid loco can't work properly >_<
21:40:02  <dragonhorseboy> brb
21:49:57  <dragonhorseboy> back
21:53:35  <Ammler> SpComb^: does it local cache the images?
21:53:53  <SpComb^> Ammler: local cache?
21:53:57  <Ammler> the browser
21:54:09  <SpComb^> ah. I'm not actually sure, it's one of the things I need to check on
21:54:17  <SpComb^> so I'm afraid that it probably doesn't
21:55:47  <SpComb^> the other issue is that the link-to-this-view images tend to be larger than 1MB, and thus don't fit into memcache
21:56:24  <nicecupoftea> The coop map live image is fantastic, who wrote it?
21:56:33  * SpComb^
21:57:18  <Eoin> coop map live image
21:57:19  <Eoin> where :O
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21:57:29  <dragonhorseboy> eoin .. in your brain :P
21:57:30  <dragonhorseboy> lol
21:57:35  <Ammler> nicecupoftea: you mean the screen or the app showing the screen?
21:57:36  <dragonhorseboy> heh
21:57:51  <nicecupoftea> http://maps.openttdcoop.org:8000/
21:57:51  <nicecupoftea> that
21:57:59  *** JamesD [~JamesD@c-24-91-145-175.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
21:58:03  <JamesD> Hello
21:58:06  <nicecupoftea> well, whatever generates it
21:58:08  <Ammler> the screens are from #openttdcoop
21:58:10  <nicecupoftea> hello James
21:58:12  <Ammler> the app from SpComb^
21:58:18  <JamesD> I've got some Questions about OTT
21:58:22  <planetmaker> and it's not live ;-)
21:58:31  <nicecupoftea> How often does it update?
21:58:40  <JamesD> Have there been any changes to the economics of the game to make it more challenging?
21:58:45  <Ammler> that is currently only a test
21:58:57  <Ammler> and the dev-server is very unstable
21:59:06  <SpComb^> unstable?
21:59:18  <Ammler> SpComb^: the console looks funny ;-)
21:59:29  <SpComb^> errors?
21:59:32  <nicecupoftea> Is it a client generating the image or a custom server build>
21:59:34  <nicecupoftea> ?*
21:59:44  <SpComb^> nicecupoftea: the image is just a standard giant screenshot
21:59:57  <nicecupoftea> broken up in to 256^2?
22:00:07  <SpComb^> pretty much
22:00:17  <Belugas> nigth all
22:00:21  <nicecupoftea> what's unstable about it?
22:00:21  <nicecupoftea> nn!
22:00:28  <Rubidium> night mr white whale
22:00:43  <SpComb^> Ammler: if it displays connection errors, then those are most likely just the client/browser closing a connection
22:00:50  <planetmaker> nighty nigh, Belugas
22:00:52  <Ammler> nicecupoftea: just the testing environment
22:02:38  <Ammler> SpComb^: I run it in a screen window, might not be the most clever thing ;-)
22:02:59  <JamesD> Sorry to break in - but have there been many changes to the economic model of the game to make it more challenging?
22:03:46  <SpComb^> Ammler: as long as you don't manage to crash it :P
22:03:53  <SpComb^> Ammler: what's the hardware configuration you're running it on?
22:04:24  <Rubidium> JamesD: not really, but with NewGRFs you can change quite a bit of the economy
22:04:56  *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9C36.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
22:04:57  <Ammler> a vserver with host quad core:  Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.20GHz
22:05:14  <Ammler> 2 gig ram
22:05:25  <JamesD> GRFs?
22:06:04  <Ammler> but as you know, it runs now with only one thread
22:06:18  *** CIA-2 [~CIA@208.69.182.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:06:29  <Ammler> so if multiple users visit it, it is a bit too busy....
22:06:47  <JamesD> Just a little bit of background - I used to playt this game as a kid and I've known about your project for a while and been looking to play it at some lan parties
22:06:52  <SpComb^> hmm
22:07:13  <JamesD> Although the game seems pretty easy at this point and I was hoping there had been some changes on that
22:07:35  <planetmaker> Then make sure to use the basemod newgrf to change all prices to incredibly high ;-)
22:07:50  <nicecupoftea> JamesD: there's a wealth of addons, called GRFs that modify the game
22:07:59  <nicecupoftea> Some of them are just graphics, some of them completely change the gameplay
22:07:59  <JamesD> ok
22:08:06  <planetmaker> Also make it a competing game. then the absolute ease of getting money is not important
22:08:15  <nicecupoftea> There's a hard server pack which increases prices, limits industries and changes vehicals
22:08:24  <nicecupoftea> In fact, I think there's a couple of different server packs.
22:08:39  <Ammler> or use version 0.4.8 ;-)
22:08:39  <planetmaker> and in fact all of them require building binaries.
22:08:51  <SpComb^> Ammler: yeah, running multiple processes should help a fair bit then, and 2GB RAM isn't bad
22:08:52  <JamesD> I'm the art and marketing director for Dangerlands.com MMORPG for iPhone but I'm not the coder
22:09:30  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:09:47  <planetmaker> JamesD: something possibly interesting for a handful of people is the head2head branch, though
22:10:05  <JamesD> So I can modify gameplay by changing values in GRFs
22:10:13  <JamesD> ok - head2head branch
22:10:27  <nicecupoftea> JamesD: It depends, some things are simply NewGRF downloads in game, other require compiling from source
22:10:27  <SpComb^> if you did it with --background, then a 512x512 map takes up perhaps 128MB of mem
22:10:36  <planetmaker> http://hg.openttd.org/developers/yexo/head-to-head.hg/ and ... where are the binaries?
22:10:38  <Ammler> ah :-)
22:10:46  <Ammler> I should run the server with that?
22:10:51  <Ammler> :-D
22:10:57  <SpComb^> oh, no, you don't need to run the dev-server with that
22:10:59  <Yexo> http://www.openttd.org/en/download-head-to-head
22:11:02  <SpComb^> it's just the cache update
22:11:02  <Yexo> but those are old
22:11:06  <planetmaker> ty, Yexo
22:11:10  <Ammler> yes, I used that for all
22:11:23  <planetmaker> But I trust in you that you order new ones, if games are planned :-)
22:11:28  <SpComb^> Ammler: check with `ls -slh .../foo.*`
22:11:46  <SpComb^> Ammler: you should see that the first column (the actual disk size) is about half of the real size
22:12:20  <Ammler> http://pastebin.ca/1767166
22:12:46  <SpComb^> http://maps.openttdcoop.org:8000/ps173.png#32338:1:0 <-- seeing those edges is a sign that you did it right
22:13:27  <SpComb^> Ammler: yeah, that looks roughly right, surprising amount of variation, though
22:13:53  <JamesD> What is head2head? A custom balanced version?
22:14:05  <SpComb^> Ammler: what sizes are those maps?
22:14:17  <SpComb^> is MZ4 something non-square?
22:14:31  <Ammler> http://pastebin.ca/1767172 <-- one of those errors in the log
22:14:44  <SpComb^> yeah, that's just someone hitting esc in their browser
22:15:06  *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@234.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
22:15:40  <Ammler> mz11 is 512?, mz4 and ps173 is 1024? and the other one is hmm
22:15:40  <nicecupoftea> JamesD: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=42572&start=0
22:16:26  <SpComb^> Ammler: but as you can see... the .cache files are roughly half the nominal size on disk, and as far as I can tell the actual runtime memory use for the page table should follow the real disk size
22:16:37  <JamesD> Thanks!
22:16:41  *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:16:41  <SpComb^> (er, page cache)
22:16:44  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.129] has joined #openttd
22:16:53  *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd
22:17:20  <Yexo> JamesD: if you have some patience I'll update it
22:17:21  <Ammler> I will install fastcgi and check then...
22:18:17  <Ammler> since wiki and blog is gone from our server, we should have a bit free resources again ;-)
22:19:01  <SpComb^> heh, giant screenshots will do a good job of eating them up
22:19:04  *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-210-100.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
22:19:16  <Ammler> (psg173 is the current running game on our ps)
22:19:17  <rait> sorry for the errors, probablly chrome did it's thing
22:19:48  <Ammler> already some clients, which can't join anymore :'-(
22:20:21  <Ammler> and we planned to make new vehicle record ;-)
22:20:40  <SpComb^> curious choice of mountanious terrain
22:20:48  <SpComb^> nasty slopes
22:20:55  <Ammler> yeah, old generator
22:21:18  <dragonhorseboy> ammler was afk for a minute and I'm kinda lost..which game is this?
22:21:33  <luckz> is there some page/wiki entry/the like dealing with recommended settings for the sake of gameplay/balance, not limited to stock options, thus also including cargo dist and maybe infra sharing?
22:21:44  <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: this runs on the #openttdcoop publicserver right now
22:21:48  <SpComb^> oh, that's OpenGFX, no wonder it looks so fuzzy
22:21:52  <Yexo> luckz: no
22:22:00  <Yexo> because everyone has their own preference
22:22:15  <Ammler> SpComb^: I have no legal copy of TTD;-)
22:22:22  * SpComb^ does
22:22:35  <Ammler> only TT(O)
22:22:36  <dragonhorseboy> ammler oh ok
22:22:41  <SpComb^> bought a copy of the Tycoon Collection once, before I even stumbled on tt-forums
22:22:49  <dragonhorseboy> never been bothered looking because they always seem to be using odd build versions every single time
22:23:06  <dragonhorseboy> yexo heh true on that
22:23:15  <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: that is our "newbie protection" ;-)
22:23:27  *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C2FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
22:23:47  <SpComb^> nightlies aren't odd
22:23:58  <dragonhorseboy> ammler...so you telling me there's a useless password for no reason then?
22:24:10  <Ammler> ah, that one :-)
22:24:23  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb..when you can't find it on the thread or download page there IS something odd :p
22:24:55  <Ammler> binaries.openttd.org/nightlies
22:25:32  <dragonhorseboy> I'm not downloading a billion .. which one? :P
22:25:38  <dragonhorseboy> heh
22:25:48  *** Bimmel^afk [~supernops@p57972D59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
22:25:54  <Ammler> as you need to the password, you can't join without irc anyway :-P
22:26:04  <dragonhorseboy> yexo for me I actually play with the prices set a bit high up
22:27:27  <Ammler> ah, for mz11, I forgot to enable trees and bridges
22:30:52  <Yexo> Rubidium: could you start the cf for http://hg.openttd.org/developers/yexo/head-to-head.hg/ ? As far as I'm aware it has no CFID yet
22:34:01  <TrueBrain> is has one
22:34:23  <Yexo> then I don't know what it is
22:34:37  <TrueBrain> that is true :)
22:35:16  <TrueBrain> 0000016
22:35:18  <TrueBrain> for your information :)
22:35:36  <TrueBrain> started btw
22:35:42  <Yexo> ok, thanks :)
22:35:42  <TrueBrain> (although my name is not Rubidium, still :))
22:36:01  <Yexo> last time I asked you something about the cf you told me to ask Rubidium :)
22:36:15  <Yexo> but actually I don't really care who starts it, as long as it's started :)
22:36:28  <TrueBrain> Yexo: I know :) I am just 'pesten' you
22:36:36  <Yexo> hehe :p
22:37:22  <TrueBrain> (no OSX of course)
22:37:55  <Yexo> of course not
22:38:46  <SpComb^> is the compile farm actually a farm?
22:38:51  <Ammler> OSX users aren't real competitors anyway ;-)
22:38:56  <TrueBrain> whiiee, I like the mirror system :)
22:39:03  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: what is the definition for a farm?
22:39:06  <Yexo> SpComb^: yes, of virtual machines
22:39:07  <SpComb^> more than one host
22:39:21  <TrueBrain> virtual hosts: yes
22:39:26  <SpComb^> physical hosts?
22:39:34  <TrueBrain> no
22:39:37  <TrueBrain> no need either :)
22:39:42  <SpComb^> huh
22:39:46  <TrueBrain> nowedays physical hosts are overrated
22:40:15  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:40:26  <TrueBrain> either way, it is a farm of compilers
22:40:32  <rait> how much time is the builder really doing anything? or does it have any other tasks?
22:40:34  <TrueBrain> so even if it was in one OS, it would have been a farm ;)
22:40:55  <TrueBrain> rait: 30 minutes compiling, 9 minutes mirroring
22:41:02  <rait> per day?
22:41:04  <TrueBrain> that for sure every day ...
22:41:12  <Ammler> shouldn't that be faster, since you dropped osx?
22:41:15  <TrueBrain> + things like head-to-head, which also takes 30 minutes compiling and 9 minutes mirroring
22:41:18  <TrueBrain> it is ;)
22:41:21  <Yexo> per build, so every day a nightly, then all releases and sometimes a custom build (like now)
22:41:43  <rait> so like under 2h per day is it utilized?
22:41:45  <TrueBrain> rait: then we also compile TTDp
22:41:51  <TrueBrain> and other utils
22:41:54  <rait> TTDp?
22:42:08  <Yexo> yes, ttdpatch
22:42:10  <TrueBrain> 2 hours a day is a max, yes, where we use 3 cores at 100%
22:42:24  <TrueBrain> the rest of course goes to shit like php-cgi, and all other processes
22:42:42  <rait> so building isn't all it does?
22:42:44  <TrueBrain> average load is around 0.3, and there is about 10% CPU usage constant
22:42:50  <TrueBrain> no; it does all openttd.org services
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22:43:43  <rait> so if this one machine goes down .... all goes?
22:43:43  <glx> with mirroring the load is reduced ;)
22:43:53  <TrueBrain> glx: yes :)
22:43:55  <TrueBrain> rait: yes
22:44:04  <glx> but there are backups
22:44:10  *** lewymati [~lewymati@host-81-190-18-20.torun.mm.pl] has joined #openttd
22:44:15  <rait> that would suck. what exactly is mirrored?
22:44:26  <TrueBrain> all data is safe, that is never an issue :)
22:44:38  <glx> binaries are mirrored
22:44:45  <glx> and bananas may be
22:44:49  <TrueBrain> it is
22:45:05  <glx> not ingame ;)
22:45:15  <TrueBrain> we talked about data :)
22:45:39  <TrueBrain> as even access to binaries.openttd.org requires the host ;)
22:45:50  <rait> any plans in case it does go down?
22:46:05  <TrueBrain> SVN is stored at 3 locations in the world, which can made active at any time
22:46:17  <TrueBrain> in it there is the website, masterserver, contentserver, ...
22:46:32  <TrueBrain> DNS control is also on several places in the world, controlled offsite
22:46:33  <Rubidium> yeah, no backup of the masterserver :)
22:46:43  *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9C36.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:46:45  <TrueBrain> yeah, that database is very value :p
22:47:09  <TrueBrain> rait: so in case the server goes down for a long period (unlikely btw), we can recover all client-side services in a short period of time
22:47:15  <TrueBrain> developers access is not easy to recover
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22:48:05  * SpComb^ fires up his DL380 G3
22:48:26  <TrueBrain> rait: the server has a RAID-mirror, so our data is 'relative' safe
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22:49:50  <rait> RAID is a nice thing as long as actual data won't get corrupted. do you also have backups?
22:50:09  <Rubidium> of the important things, yes
22:50:10  <TrueBrain> SVN: yes
22:50:15  <TrueBrain> and that is the only important thing to us
22:50:22  <SpComb^> wiki?
22:50:36  <Rubidium> and hg and git are not important to us :)
22:50:37  <TrueBrain> and btw, corruption is mostly detected afterwards, when the backups are long infected too ;)
22:50:39  <Yexo> nice thing of the git/hg copies is that everyone who checks out via git/hg has a backup
22:51:34  *** Chillosophy [~fu@195-241-120-76.ip.telfort.nl] has quit []
22:51:48  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: no; too big ;)
22:51:54  <SpComb^> pft
22:52:28  <Yexo> how big would a backup of all text (not images) in the wiki actually be?
22:52:40  <SpComb^> 10MB?
22:52:49  <TrueBrain> without uploads, rather small
22:53:31  <Rubidium> actually, the wiki database is 160 MB
22:53:33  <TrueBrain> 162 MiB
22:54:08  <TrueBrain> 138MB of text ....
22:54:54  *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@234.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...]
22:54:55  <TrueBrain> you guys change too much too often
22:55:10  <SpComb^> a fair amount
22:55:11  <rait> but when you apply the magic of compression, it would be totally backupable
22:55:24  <TrueBrain> that is without uploads ;)
22:55:46  <fonsinchen> SpComb^: The warnings aren't my fault
22:56:12  <fonsinchen> And I suppose some dev has also seen them and thus didn't post a bug report.
22:56:46  <TrueBrain> 550 MiB, mostly images (no compression)
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22:57:38  <TrueBrain> Flyspray makes up 1.5 GiB of data .... :o
22:58:02  <SpComb^> too many crash.dmp's
22:58:48  <TrueBrain> 2 GiB of developers data
22:58:57  <SpComb^> paltry
22:59:15  * SpComb^ wget's a couple 165M screenshots for amusement
22:59:16  <Yexo> TrueBrain: does that 2gb include the hg repos?
22:59:22  <SpComb^> over my IPv6 tunnel, no less
22:59:23  <TrueBrain> your /home dir
22:59:54  <Yexo> ah, ok
23:00:22  <TrueBrain> me, Belugas, Rubidium and then Bjarni
23:01:00  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:01:02  <TrueBrain> ghehe
23:01:15  <TrueBrain> I will review the backup of wiki and flyspray this week, se what can be done
23:01:48  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:02:01  <Rubidium> yeah, I guess my homedir is big (due to the intro savegame thing)
23:02:11  *** JamesD [~JamesD@c-24-91-145-175.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
23:02:20  * SpComb^ runs pngtile+memcached on a dedicated server for amusement
23:02:21  <TrueBrain> mine is ... well .. because it is
23:02:28  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
23:02:29  <TrueBrain> Belugas because he is Belugas (hihi, it is okay, really, it is :))
23:02:34  <TrueBrain> Bjarni because of OSX shit
23:02:53  <SpComb^> would it be a good idea to carry a 2U rack server with you on the bus+train?
23:03:02  <TrueBrain> yes
23:03:05  <SpComb^> funny it would certainly be
23:03:15  <rait> it's a must-do-in-life
23:04:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r18921 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp station_map.h waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: make the preconditions for Get/Set CustomStationSpecIndex a bit more strict
23:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: i carried a refridgerator on the train...
23:06:08  <TrueBrain> also one of those things you have to do: a desktop PC and a screen in the train. Just put them like you can work on it .. the faces of people ... unpayable
23:06:32  <rait> actually catty an ups and it will be magic :D
23:06:37  <rait> carry*
23:10:34  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:10:57  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
23:13:27  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:13:36  <SpComb^> pfft, trains have power
23:13:47  *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
23:13:49  <TrueBrain> AND LOTS OF THEM!
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23:17:55  <TrueBrain> Yexo: h2h online
23:18:02  <Yexo> thanks :)
23:18:19  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.159] has joined #openttd
23:18:55  <Yexo> TrueBrain: I see it on binaries.openttd.org, but http://www.openttd.org/en/download-head-to-head isn't updated
23:19:05  <Yexo> or do I need to wait for it to be pushed to all mirrors for that?
23:19:12  <TrueBrain> it is on all mirrors
23:19:37  <TrueBrain> but the download page is cached for 5 minutes I believe
23:19:43  <Yexo> ok
23:19:55  *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-210-100.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
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23:20:44  <TrueBrain> yeah, it caches the finger result for 5 minutes :)
23:21:52  *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!]
23:23:20  <TrueBrain> there it is :)
23:24:17  <TrueBrain> good night all
23:24:23  <Yexo> gn TrueBrain
23:25:09  *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:25:31  * SpComb^ needs to aquire a dozen DL380 G3's and a rack for them
23:25:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r18922 /trunk/src/station_map.h: -Doc: add doxygen documentation to all functions in station_map.h
23:28:20  <rait> what is head-to-head?
23:28:45  <Yexo> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=108316 only screenshot I can find so fast
23:28:52  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
23:29:09  <Yexo> basically the game starts with the same map copied a few times, and every company can only build in their own copy of the map
23:29:19  <Yexo> but you all play on the same server
23:29:34  <rait> okay
23:34:15  <SpComb^> funky, my randrange() fails on 32-bit
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23:41:20  <SpComb^> uh oh
23:47:17  *** SpBot [spbot@skrblz.fixme.fi] has joined #openttd
23:48:00  <SpComb^> yay, 2GB of RAM now
23:50:24  *** xi23 [~xi@78.110.223.65] has joined #openttd
23:50:29  <Muddy> yay
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23:59:03  <Ammler> SpComb^: still awake?
23:59:17  <SpComb^> shortly
23:59:27  <Ammler> I have a bit issue to handle those env vars for fcgi
23:59:44  <SpComb^> which ones?
23:59:50  <Ammler> couldn't I add those somehow to the fcgi directly?

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