Log for #openttd on 8th March 2010:
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00:24:23  <PeterT> On ubuntu linux, where does "make install" install OpenTTD to?
00:24:36  <Zuu> Oo, now OpenTTD asserted when I clicked on the GoTo button of an AdmiralAI train. Had the debugger attached so I have the call stack. I'll just keep visual studio open overnight.
00:25:22  <FauxFaux> PeterT: The path, one would hope. :P
00:25:36  <PeterT> Wha?
00:25:58  <FauxFaux> As in, you should be able to run it just by typing "openttd" or "rehash; openttd".
00:26:04  <FauxFaux> (noquotes0
00:27:27  <Zuu> It was asertion on line 515 in window_gui.h if anyone reads this. The whole window instance seems to be invalid.
00:29:04  <PeterT> FauxFaux: hold on
00:29:51  <PeterT> FauxFaux:
00:30:18  <Rubidium> hmm, you cheated between companies or so?
00:30:57  <Rubidium> anyhow, a stack trace and bug report on FS would be useful
00:31:09  <Zuu> Rubidium: I have certainly did that within that game.
00:31:15  <FauxFaux> PeterT: make install didn't do what I expect.  I have no idea why. ¬_¬  Ask a linux user.
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00:31:20  <thingwath> PeterT: Look into Makefile, it's quite simple.
00:37:20  <PeterT> thanks for the help
00:37:42  <PeterT> thingwath: I would do that, but I'm using SSH :-P
00:38:01  <FauxFaux> vim! \o/
00:38:08  <PeterT> yarr
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00:38:46  <PeterT> "vim makefile" makes a new file
00:38:52  <thingwath> _M_akefile
00:38:58  <thingwath> case sensitive :)
00:39:05  <PeterT> Thanks
00:39:48  <PeterT> INSTALL_DIR    = /
00:39:54  <fireun> I've added newgrf "FIRS industry replacement" which is great, many more sub industries... but playing heightmaps, it hardly populates the new industries.. how do I fix? Or more to the point, is there another way to make a more diverse industry game that is balanced?
00:40:21  <fireun> the default hardly has any industries
00:40:24  <thingwath> PeterT: BIN_DIR?
00:40:35  <PeterT> BIN_DIR        = /home/trunk/bin
00:40:47  <PeterT> But I would /like/ to install it, like a .deb
00:40:52  <fireun> also, at a certain point in the game, all the industries start to die off but no new ones start up... how do I fix that?
00:41:26  <thingwath> Isn't there an openttd package in debian/ubuntu repositories?
00:41:37  <PeterT> An updated one?
00:41:45  <Rubidium> thingwath: there is
00:41:53  <fireun> thingwath: depends on which version of debian
00:42:09  <PeterT> Rubidium/thingwath: 1.0.0-RC2, or still that old 0.7.3 version?
00:42:14  <PeterT> fireun: 9.10
00:42:23  <fireun> PeterT: thats ubuntu (:
00:42:25  <PeterT> fireun: I think there is a setting for new industries appearing
00:42:30  <PeterT> Right
00:42:41  <Rubidium> fireun: for any reasonable version of Debian, okay... it's not in the version that's going to be obsoleted like next week (i.e. oldstable)
00:42:52  <fireun> PeterT: debian sid has the 1.0-rc2 package, ubuntu should be close
00:43:21  <Rubidium> fireun: actually, Ubuntu lags a lot with OpenTTD packages
00:43:26  <fireun> I just downloaded the binary gzip
00:43:49  <fireun> Rubidium: thats a shame
00:44:16  <fireun> Rubidium: openttd is fairly polished at this point, except for my complaints as stated above (:
00:44:20  <Rubidium> fireun: FIRS adds more restrictions to where industries may be build. As such it is harder for OpenTTD to place them; after (IIRC) 1000 attempts it stops
00:44:34  <fireun> Rubidium: ahh, ok.
00:44:56  <thingwath> I guess that nothing in the build process had changed since the last stable version, so it should be very easy to make updated package.
00:45:02  <fireun> Rubidium: then maybe its "ex's citybuilder I have loaded then for that"
00:45:21  <Rubidium> so there's the problem... without industry NewGRF you get 'too much' industries, with NewGRF industries you get 'too few' industries
00:45:24  <thingwath> (But I don't know how deb packages are made, I use rpm...)
00:46:18  <fireun> Rubidium: I didnt quite understand that
00:46:35  <Rubidium> fireun: oh, that NewGRF might even disable automatic building of industries after game creation. However, FIRS then overrides the production (thus closure) control. So ex's "don't close" code gets overridden
00:46:46  <fireun> I'm open to using another "mod" to give me more industries that come and go, I'm a new player and need lots of diverse options.
00:47:11  <fireun> Rubidium: I'll try just playing with "EX's citybuilder" then
00:47:13  <Rubidium> fireun: first start by just not using ex's NewGRF
00:47:17  <fireun> hrmph
00:47:28  <fireun> but I like diamonds and water towers ):
00:47:33  <Rubidium> that might at least solve the problem you have with FIRS
00:47:54  <fireun> FIRS sounds harder
00:48:02  <fireun> which I dont need (:
00:48:17  <fireun> still working with economy, scale, and time costs
00:48:29  <Rubidium> fireun: using multiple NewGRFs that change the industries and are not coded to work together is going to create lots of problems
00:48:46  <fireun> I was moving diamonds with train near a city, then transfering to truck to get them into the center of the city.. thats the kind of gameplay I
00:48:51  <fireun> I'd like to work on.
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00:49:08  <fireun> Rubidium: understood, I was experimenting (new user again)
00:49:26  <fireun> now that I know more of what I'm looking for, trying to narrow it down
00:49:48  <fireun> which seems like something similar to "EXs"
00:50:08  <fireun> but thats why I'm here now, with open ears
00:51:05  <Rubidium> thingwath: Ubuntu doesn't update OpenTTD's package; they just import it from Debian
00:51:53  <thingwath> Is it still possible to use Debian repositories in Ubuntu (as it was few years ago)?
00:52:08  <Zuu> Rubidium: bug posted as FS#3671. Poke me if you need something more than the call stack. I would love to upload something more usable but haven't yet found out how to export something more than a plain copy of the call stack.
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00:52:31  <Rubidium> thingwath: yes, but only if packages are compatible
00:54:43  <Rubidium> thingwath: in short, OpenTTD from Debian's repository does not work in Ubuntu
00:55:04  <Rubidium> not to mention that Ubuntu's default sound configuration causes a lot of problems with SDL
00:56:14  <OwenS> Zuu: Does VS not support saving minidumps?
00:56:44  <Zuu> Probably in > Express and maybe even in express but I haven't found any such option in the menus.
00:57:10  <OwenS> Heh. Surprising there would be no way to save a core file
00:59:02  <Rubidium> Zuu, a free tip for you: don't post bug reports as feature requests. They will easily be missed
00:59:22  <Zuu> Did I do that?
00:59:44  <OwenS> Yes
00:59:55  <Zuu> Are you refering to the NoAI bug?
01:00:07  <OwenS> Zuu: FS3671, the one you just made
01:00:08  <Rubidium> FS#3671
01:00:23  <Zuu> Ok, that was not intended. Sory for that.
01:00:46  <Zuu> Even Sorry*
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01:04:24  <Rubidium> Zuu: are you really sure about ? If so that is a bug and could you please report that?
01:04:39  <PeterT> anyone familiar with Linux's terminal dpkg?
01:05:24  <OwenS> PeterT: The first error is a showstopper. If it were the only error, the second could be resolved by installing libicu42
01:05:50  <PeterT> Why is it a show stopper?
01:05:55  <PeterT> can't it be resolved?
01:06:13  <Zuu> Rubidium: I though it was a feature that AI developers would know where the AI is located that hangs while users do not need to edit their pngs because they have a super secret directory structure on their computer.
01:06:29  <OwenS> PeterT: By upgrading FontConfig to 2.8. I'm not intimately familiar with FontConfig, but I'm going to assume it's a pretty important bit of plumbing you shouldn't mess with
01:06:48  <PeterT> So I'm royally screwed?
01:06:50  <`Fuco`> try apt-get -f install
01:06:58  <FauxFaux> /o\
01:07:24  <OwenS> `Fuco`: You mean dpkg --force-dependencies (or whatever it is)? :P
01:07:53  <`Fuco`> i was installing ottd from deb package yesterday
01:08:02  <`Fuco`> and i had some dependency problems
01:08:05  <`Fuco`> so i did ^^ that
01:08:14  <`Fuco`> and it was all ok :P
01:08:16  <Zuu> Rubidium: I just tested, and the directory structure for plain dirs are also truncated in r19371.
01:08:28  <PeterT> `Fuco`:
01:08:35  <PeterT> it just uninstalled it
01:09:15  <Rubidium> Zuu: okay
01:09:33  <Zuu> I'll post a correction on the forums to not comfuse more people. :-)
01:09:42  <thingwath> Hm, maybe you could try to install that libicu42, and then just force openttd install, and try if it will work with that older fontconfig.
01:10:01  <PeterT> Zuu: I'll delete my post
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01:10:34  <Rubidium> when will $MORON learn that Debian != Ubuntu and if it doesn't work it is better to not 'heroically' mess with the system to try to make it work?
01:11:17  <OwenS> And that, really, checkinstall (iirc?) works pretty well for these things
01:11:23  <FauxFaux> Rubidium: Right after switching to packagekit lololol.
01:11:25  <thingwath> This won't cause any harm. If it won't work, you just remove openttd package, as if nothing had happened.
01:13:07  <Rubidium> for those who suggest forcing to use a lower version of a library than the package requires: Debian's library versioning stuff is pretty smart; it requires the first version of a library that has all the stuff the binary expects. So if the ABI changes but the binary doesn't use the changed part of the ABI it will give you a lower version as requirement.
01:14:12  <Rubidium> so if it asks for fontconfig 2.8 it means that it wants that ABI; anything older does not have that ABI and even though the dynamic linker might link the ABIs incompatible and can thus cause random unexplainable memory corruption crashes
01:14:16  <Zuu> PeterT: Thanks, now I've edited my post.
01:14:24  <PeterT> Ok :-)
01:14:44  <OwenS> In other words: If it crashes, you get to keep the pieces!
01:15:10  <PeterT> Zuu: Hehe, nice :-)
01:15:29  <Zuu> Yea, you got to shine a bit :-)
01:15:43  <PeterT> lol
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01:18:33  <thingwath> In that case, rebuild the package, well. Should be quite trivial, if the only real problem is ABI mismatch. (I'd suggest that first, if I knew how hard is it to rebuild DEB package.)
01:19:24  <PeterT> I just rebuilt the deb package and installed it, some errors though
01:19:43  <PeterT> thingwath:
01:22:33  <thingwath> Is there some build log?
01:22:53  <PeterT> thingwath: Never mind
01:22:56  <PeterT> thingwath: It works now
01:23:04  <PeterT> in-fact, #petert has Avignon running
01:25:58  <Zuu> Night
01:26:08  <PeterT> Good night, Zuu
01:28:50  <thingwath> Hm, so moral of this story is to don't try to mix debian and ubuntu repositories. Good to know.
01:31:00  <Rubidium> yes
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01:32:09  <Rubidium> at least don't try it if you have no clue about the deeper consequences of your actions
01:32:44  <thingwath> Generally I use the rule, that apt-get suggesting a removal of something means no go :)
01:33:11  <Rubidium> that's a good strategy
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07:08:27  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:27:30  <Starn> morning
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08:26:42  <Starn> Hello Zuu
08:26:51  <Zuu> Hello
08:27:22  <Starn> how is that thing your working on coming along?
08:27:28  <Terkhen> hi Zuu
08:30:02  <roboboy> hello
08:30:19  <Starn> hello roboboy
08:34:02  <planetmaker> moin
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09:35:13  <Starn> hi Wizzleby
09:36:26  <Wizzleby> hi Starn
09:36:54  <Starn> how are u this morin/ night
09:38:00  <Wizzleby> Not too shabby, you?
09:38:27  <Starn> waiting for my nails to dry typing with two fingers lol
09:40:16  <planetmaker> sounds kinky
09:41:13  <Starn> it could end in kinkyness.
09:41:32  <Starn> prepairing my self for spring break.
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09:42:41  <Starn> i am a nerdy goth/scene lol
09:44:55  <Starn> after luandry is done i think i will take a nap so i wont pass out around 2-3 in the afternoon
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09:51:13  <lestat> hola
09:51:20  <lestat> habla alguien español?
09:52:01  <Starn> si little. esta inglish
09:52:14  * Wizzleby points at the topic, "No, aqui habla solamente ingles"
09:53:00  <Wizzleby> and yeah, I know I conjugated that sentence poorly. My spanish is very rusty
09:53:03  <lestat> hi all
09:53:09  <Wizzleby> hi :)
09:54:41  <Starn> my spanish is even worse :P
09:54:45  <lestat> Hi I have a prolem a server and out on the web but not allowed to enter the server says that I do not respond?
09:55:06  <planetmaker> server down?
09:55:13  <planetmaker> offline?
09:55:14  <Starn> i have a feeling he is using a translator?
09:55:26  <planetmaker> yes, so what :-)
09:55:45  <Starn> they do poor grammer that is worse than mine and mine is pretty bad o.o
09:55:46  <planetmaker> not everyone is a native speaker. Actually I doubt that the majority here is.
09:56:03  <Noldo> lestat: which server is it?
09:56:11  <planetmaker> so please stop bickering at poor language except when it's intentionally leet speak
09:56:15  <Starn> i hate to admit it but my native language is english yet i suck at spelling and grammer :P
09:56:18  <lestat> mirar hacer la prueva el servidor se llama RENFE
09:57:19  <Noldo> this one?
09:57:45  <lestat> YES
09:59:28  <Noldo> the server is not answering, there is nothing you can do
10:00:27  <lestat> MAY BE IN SOME PORTS?
10:00:53  <Wizzleby> Starn: eh, it's hard to study something since kindergarten and not remember some of it ;) but stuff like conjugations and tenses slip away as you learn other languages but don't practice the ones you once knew"
10:01:06  <lestat> OPENTTD2  	3978  	3978  	TCP  	3978  	3978
10:01:06  <lestat> OPENTTD 	3978 	3978 	UDP 	3978 	3978
10:01:06  <lestat> OPENTTD 	3979 	3979 	UDP 	3979 	3979
10:01:30  <__ln__> el pastebin, por favor.
10:01:39  <Noldo> hmm
10:01:42  <Noldo> !ports
10:01:49  <Noldo> :|
10:01:53  <Terkhen> @ports
10:01:53  <DorpsGek> Terkhen: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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10:11:32  <Starn> if it uses UDP for server <-> client.. and masterserver is to list the games right? so it also uses UDP?
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10:19:14  <lestat2> ya parece que funciona por fin
10:20:58  <lestat2> finally works
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10:29:40  <dih> morning
10:31:14  <Starn> i think i fixed my internet issue just connect to every game directly .
10:31:23  <Starn> and morning dih
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11:18:19  <OwenS> Bloody Royal Mail >_<
11:18:51  <OwenS> How can it take them this long to move a package 120 bloody miles?
11:19:11  <Starn> hey i since i've managed to direct connect to games how would i do so and get into my company i started before?
11:19:21  <Starn> um..
11:19:35  <Starn> takes 3 days for us mail to travil 30 miles :P
11:19:44  <PeterT> connect ip:add:re:ss#<company nubmer>:port
11:19:49  <Starn> unless you pay for good shipping
11:19:58  <Starn> crap..
11:20:43  <Starn> is there a freakin FAQ for this id rather be pointed to that... or manual...
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11:21:36  <OwenS> Starn: Royal Mail 1st Class is supposed to be there next working day if shipped early. OC packaged the order by 9:30 Thursday. Even if they'd picked it up too late for Friday delivery, it should have been here saturday
11:21:42  <PeterT>
11:22:15  <Starn> ah so like our first class mail over night shipping..
11:22:55  <__ln__> I've sometimes received Royal Mail packages to Finland in three days.
11:23:04  <Zuu> Our mail us usually overnight (within the country)
11:23:08  <Zuu> is*
11:23:36  <Starn> yea petert i been searching on this for the direct connection stuff.... even used search function... i can only find how to join my own company if i use the built in server finder [crashes my internet]
11:23:57  <PeterT> <PeterT> connect ip:add:re:ss#<company nubmer>:port
11:24:14  <Zuu> Starn: Do you know the IP of the server you want to join?
11:24:19  <Starn> yea make that simple like what is add and re and ss#
11:24:21  <PeterT> sorry,<company number>:port
11:24:27  <Zuu> PeterT: Shouldn't the port come before the company number?
11:24:34  <PeterT> Zuu: No
11:24:42  <Zuu> Ie
11:24:48  <PeterT> No
11:25:06  <Starn> see his example is easier to understand.. lol
11:25:10  <Zuu> That's how OTTDAU does it :-)
11:25:41  <PeterT>
11:25:49  <PeterT> Well, it worked like I showed it
11:26:02  <PeterT> I don't remember where I got that from though
11:26:10  <Zuu> Usualy the standard way is to put the port directly after the IP.
11:26:23  <PeterT> Zuu: I'm just telling you what worked for me
11:26:25  <Zuu> the company number is a OpenTTD-thing which I would assume to go after the ip+prot.
11:26:34  <PeterT> [06:26:16] <PeterT> Zuu: I'm just telling you what worked for me
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11:27:59  <Zuu> From openttd --help: "-p password         = Password to join server"
11:28:18  <Zuu> Oh, wrong line
11:28:20  <Zuu> "-n [ip:port#company]= Start networkgame"
11:29:01  <PeterT> Zuu: try it with connect ip#company:port
11:29:04  <PeterT> just try it
11:29:25  <Zuu> Sure it might work. You might be right about that even if it is not the way it is documented.
11:29:43  <Starn> this worked. connect
11:30:02  <roboboy> hello
11:30:09  <PeterT> Yeap, just tried it, works
11:30:12  <Starn> hello roboboy
11:30:16  <PeterT> Hi roboboy
11:30:26  <PeterT> "connect"
11:31:41  <Zuu> Your way looks wierd though, since ip+port is used at a much lower level in the connection than the company number. The defacto standard outside OpenTTD is to write ip:port. But again, it works for you so be happy.
11:32:12  <Starn> lol
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11:37:20  <peter1138> both ways work
11:37:27  <peter1138> but the documenation states petert's way
11:38:10  <peter1138> +t
11:38:43  <OwenS> PeterT's way isn't a valid URI though (The :port#company way would be valid if you prefixed it with openttd: or such)
11:39:31  <peter1138> it isn't a URI
11:39:37  <peter1138> URIs have a protocol prefix
11:40:01  <OwenS> I mentioned prefixing it with "openttd:" to make a valid protocol :p
11:40:13  <peter1138> command line shows it as ip:port#company, heh
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11:44:02  <Starn> i think i have a slight avantage over other online players ....
11:44:41  <Starn> my singel player games i will sit there playing for 4-8 hours when i play....
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11:51:47  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19374 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp network/network.cpp): -Change: Update documentation for console command connect to use ip:port#company parameter format, in line with command line help.
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11:52:37  <peter1138> there you go, it's now officially the right way around ;p
11:53:30  <whitequark> !download
11:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> where is glx?
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11:55:46  <peter1138> inconceivably, not here
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12:26:11  <Eddi|zuHause>
12:29:06  <Noldo> should have seen that one coming
12:29:39  <OwenS> Everyone saw that one coming :p
12:29:52  <Forked> meh, I'm going to miss out on settlers 7 because of that crappy drm.
12:30:10  <KenjiE20> didn't they already crack that anyway?
12:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's the "funny" part
12:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the screwed ones are always the honest customers
12:31:12  <Noldo> inferior service for paying customers
12:31:19  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you mean ?
12:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that ;)
12:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> there are plenty of examples...
12:32:34  <KenjiE20> heh, they missed out the WB 'you should have OUR software installed' bit
12:32:42  <Rubidium> OpenTTD's DRM seems to work quite well
12:33:06  <peter1138> yup, nobody even noticed it was there
12:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> anybody remember how "easy" copy protection was back in the days of Siedler 1? "please enter the symbols on page 12 of the manual"
12:33:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i even still have that manual...
12:33:35  <KenjiE20> always liked the 'what cheese is this' copy protection system
12:33:36  <peter1138> back before anyone could photocopy
12:33:44  <Ammler> pdf broke that!
12:33:49  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I don't remember a Siedler 1, but I remember MGS1 doing the same
12:35:06  <Ammler> #openDUNE does the same, at least did as I tried last time
12:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you haven't yet had a "worldwide" problem with people not being able to play multiplayer or download from bananas for a week :)
12:36:23  <Forked> according to the internet (including ubisoft on the internet) the silent hunter 5 crack is not complete .. and things ingame does not work as they should. Can't complete missions etc..
12:36:41  * OwenS wonders how many people are gonna go "Omgzorz your using 1GB of RAM" when they fail to understand the meaning of the various columns in $favorite_task_manager and see one saying that much
12:36:44  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: true, multiplayer and bananas don't work when you don't have an internet connection
12:37:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: as far as i understood that, the game doesn't actually contain the missions, but they have to be downloaded from the central server upon completition
12:37:35  <Rubidium> OwenS: yes, memory mapping a 4GB data file is going to cause that with lots of people
12:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> in that sense, the game is cracked, but not complete...
12:38:07  <OwenS> Rubidium: Not even that. Memory mapping noncomitted pages so I don't have to move GC heaps around, which is rather hairy business
12:42:07  <peter1138> # two slightly... distorted guitars
12:42:20  <Rubidium> peter1138: yeah, that's good music!
12:42:25  <KenjiE20> :)
12:43:01  <KenjiE20> wasn't that cleese as well?
12:43:20  <peter1138> ?
12:43:41  <peter1138> vivian stanshall
12:43:42  <KenjiE20> I recall something about it being John Cleese that did the voice
12:43:48  <KenjiE20> ah
12:44:00  <KenjiE20> wonder where the cleese myth came from
12:44:26  <peter1138> it's not
12:44:33  <peter1138> he did the 2003 version
12:44:57  <KenjiE20> right
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13:07:27  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: have you ever gathered your ideas about the shunting/decoupling/banking etc. things into a desing document of any kind?
13:08:53  <peter1138> i wonder where my patch went...
13:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: i don't think so...
13:10:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: anything that's not in the forum is likely only in my head
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13:17:27  <__ln__> please submit your head to the forum as attachment
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13:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, my head is empty currently, and i still did not come up with a riddle..
13:23:43  <anna> do my boobs look small?
13:24:29  <__ln__> how nice, a true spambot
13:24:38  <Forked> heh
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13:28:42  <fjb> Now they do.
13:33:18  <TrueBrain> now the question: who clicked the link?
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13:35:53  * fjb didn't
13:36:01  <Pikka> I certainly didn't
13:36:23  <TrueBrain> so, Pikka and fjb, were they really small?
13:36:26  * Eddi|zuHause didn'T either
13:36:29  <TrueBrain> (as I don't believe you guys didn't click it :p)
13:36:59  * fjb really didn't.
13:37:10  <fjb> I don't care for virtual boobs.
13:37:47  <Ammler> they were very small...
13:37:52  <Pikka> TrueBrain: I wasn't here and so don't have a clue what anyone's talking about :)
13:38:07  <Singaporekid> All of you are incoming
13:38:07  <TrueBrain> too bad :p
13:38:08  <planetmaker> Pikka, a nice spam bot which complained about too small boobs :-P
13:38:15  <fjb> But banning the bot makes everything everythning small reganrding the bot.
13:38:48  <Eddi|zuHause> even your spelling :p
13:38:48  <Pikka> Snigapoerkdi:  All of you are a spy
13:39:05  <Singaporekid> naturally
13:41:34  <Pikka> just lay your weapons down and walk naturally
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13:43:20  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: :)
13:49:13  <Pikka> Singaporekid: I'm drunk, you don't have a medic
13:50:38  <Singaporekid> ya appear to have trodden on a bloody spy
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14:16:22  * roboboy should sleep
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14:19:56  <Rubidium> roboboy: no, you should solve SirkoZ's complaint about your OpenTTD on DOS quide
14:20:59  <peter1138> heh
14:21:13  <peter1138> and are you sure that you need 8.3 filenames in the base set with lfn loaded?
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14:36:33  <Pikka> goodnight wallyweb
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14:42:51  <Belugas> hello
14:44:10  <planetmaker> holla Belugas :-)
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14:58:29  <Belugas> mister planetmaker!  hello you sir
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15:17:29  <HackaLittleBit> hello
15:20:34  <HackaLittleBit> question: would m4 on tunnel bridge ramps not be a bery nice place to put length of wormhole? or is it reserved?
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15:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> that's kind of redundant information, or not?
15:35:16  <HackaLittleBit> It is free and now for example in collision detection you allways have to look for other side of tunnel bridge
15:35:35  <HackaLittleBit> it could speed up code
15:36:58  <HackaLittleBit> it would also be nice for signals on tunnels because it would give me  the possibility to place signals 1 2 4  8 tiles apart
15:39:04  <HackaLittleBit> looking for other side of wormhole now is done by iteraring over the tile until you find valid exit
15:39:12  <planetmaker> sounds... strange. I'd expect to have them placed like on normal track
15:39:27  <HackaLittleBit> planet
15:39:31  <HackaLittleBit> sorry
15:39:41  <HackaLittleBit> would give huge overhead
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15:40:14  <HackaLittleBit> and why
15:41:04  <HackaLittleBit> would you wan't to place them individually
15:41:38  <planetmaker> because it's the way I do in certain situations
15:42:00  <planetmaker> and because it seems the proper way. If it gets added, add it such that it is a fully usable feature
15:42:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly why the patch will never be considered for trunk...
15:42:28  <planetmaker> e.g. by adding a list of pseudo-tiles or so.
15:42:43  <planetmaker> and a pointer to that list
15:42:50  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, what kind of "that"?
15:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the way it is currently "hacked"
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15:43:32  <planetmaker> ok ;-)
15:44:16  <HackaLittleBit> Others have failed allready on that road planetmaker
15:44:42  <HackaLittleBit> that is too complicated
15:45:14  <Ammler> that needs a 3dmap :-)
15:45:33  <HackaLittleBit> yeah :)
15:46:03  <HackaLittleBit> mission impossible
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15:46:12  <planetmaker> HackaLittleBit, that some people have failed to do it properly doesn't mean there is no way
15:46:25  <planetmaker> Nor does it mean that a hackish way is the way to go
15:47:32  <HackaLittleBit> Then you did not look at the new patch, not ready yet and some hacks maybe, but not hackish
15:50:24  <HackaLittleBit> To do this patch properly some things have to be changed in trunk, like the moment train enters in wormhole and moment it leaves.
15:50:44  <HackaLittleBit> I am experimenting with this at this moment
15:52:01  <HackaLittleBit> Ok I admit that anything you change in the tile enter proc for wormholes will most probably give some overhead
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15:56:28  <HackaLittleBit> but not to much
15:57:05  <HackaLittleBit> And also slowly we can start thinking about custom bridgeheads
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16:00:19  <HackaLittleBit> The idear  is as follows when tunnel bridge is made length is filled in m4, after that you just change GetOtherTunnelBrigeEnd proc
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16:00:37  <DJNekkid> that would be AWSOME to create something that atleast looks like metros :)
16:01:17  <HackaLittleBit> I don't think you will in openttd
16:10:11  <HackaLittleBit> I also would like to use bit 6 and 7 of m1 to define signal distance 1 2 4 8 but im am not shure if that is possible
16:11:32  <HackaLittleBit> Bridge length will be limited according to signal distance (compromise)
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16:16:41  <planetmaker> HackaLittleBit, bridge length <= signal distance?! --> bridge length = 2 tiles for my games. Quite useless
16:17:16  <planetmaker> then there's btw. no need for signals on them...
16:17:32  <HackaLittleBit> so don't put them
16:17:54  <planetmaker> if you limit bridges to the signal lenght you can already put a signal before and behind it...
16:18:01  <planetmaker> what would be the point?
16:18:28  <HackaLittleBit> no hold on I'll explain
16:18:46  <HackaLittleBit> I have 16 bits available im m2
16:19:07  <planetmaker> I'm not talking implementation
16:19:11  <planetmaker> I'm talking concepts
16:19:34  <HackaLittleBit> hold on for a sec planetmaker
16:19:53  <HackaLittleBit> that means I can have 17 signal  blocks on a bridge
16:20:33  <planetmaker> err...? As said: make a pointer to a list of virtual tiles. Then you have all flexibility you ever need
16:20:55  <HackaLittleBit> 17 x 1 signal per tile is max length for that kind of bridge 17
16:21:16  <HackaLittleBit> 17 x 2 is 34 tiles long etc
16:21:26  <planetmaker> Ok, I understand that logic. I dislike the concept
16:21:57  <HackaLittleBit> Fair enough
16:22:02  <Rubidium> and then (in the GUI) you change signal distance from 2 to 1...
16:22:17  <planetmaker> :-D
16:22:53  <HackaLittleBit> If bridge length is below 17 yes
16:23:12  <planetmaker> HackaLittleBit, and on a MP server with me: distance2 and you distance10?
16:23:21  <OwenS> HALLELUJAH!
16:23:23  <OwenS> HD ARRIVED!
16:23:32  <planetmaker> and then a person with 1 joins?
16:23:56  <HackaLittleBit> The distance is stored in map array
16:24:13  <HackaLittleBit> so should not give a problem
16:24:27  <HackaLittleBit> for each bridge individually
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16:25:38  <planetmaker> How do I know about the distance for an individual bridge?
16:25:53  <HackaLittleBit> I need 2 bits for that
16:25:57  <planetmaker> How do I know about the distance for an individual bridge?
16:26:04  <planetmaker> visually. As player?
16:26:14  <planetmaker> And how do I change that?
16:26:17  <HackaLittleBit> You see it
16:26:41  <HackaLittleBit> Gui
16:29:20  <HackaLittleBit> max bridge length is 100 tiles
16:30:35  <HackaLittleBit> All bits requested in this discussion are available in map array
16:30:55  <HackaLittleBit> mut not much more :(
16:31:05  <HackaLittleBit> *but
16:31:41  <HackaLittleBit> I would like to know if bit 6,7 in m1 are realy used
16:31:58  <HackaLittleBit> for tunnels,bridges
16:32:00  <planetmaker> the docs in trunk/docs will tell you
16:32:15  <HackaLittleBit> hmmm
16:32:30  <HackaLittleBit> bit is accessed, but does not really have a meaning (
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16:43:48  <HackaLittleBit> well I have to go now to pick up my kids, Thanks planetmaker :) Later on I will return.
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16:45:04  <Ammler> planetmaker: you would add a "minimap" to every bridge/tunnel? sounds like an alternative :-)
16:45:32  <planetmaker> Ammler, no, I wouldn't. I just would try to store internally a rail tile for each bridge tile
16:45:53  <planetmaker> then I could do whatever I desire with those tiles
16:46:12  <Ammler> also place a station on the tunnel
16:46:16  <Ammler> in*
16:46:24  <planetmaker> But I'd need to drop the 'wormhole' assumption. And it wouldn't be an easy thing to implement. Nor a small patch I fear
16:46:56  <planetmaker> And I wouldn't do it for tunnels right now. More GUI issues than for bridges. Though even there...
16:47:10  <planetmaker> ... I'd need a way to find out whether I click on a bridge tile or the tile below it.
16:47:57  <Ammler> and it might get complicater if you have multiple bridges and tunnels in the same place
16:48:37  <planetmaker> well. That's an additional complication. But that'd be an additonal extension of the idea
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16:49:44  <Rubidium> problem with the current 'signals on bridge' is that it's going to be a hack and stacking hacks isn't such a good idea
16:52:32  <Rubidium> although the 'non hack' way would be way more complex, though also support stuff like stations, corners, junctions and the like
16:54:23  <fonsinchen> SL_MAX_VERSION is 255. Shouldn't that be raised sometime soon?
16:54:26  <Rubidium> what worries me 'most' with CBH are level (road+rail) crossings on the bridgehead and two bridges sharing the same bridgehead
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16:55:15  <DanMacK> So all of the Toyland locos for OpenGFX have been done?  Didn't see them posted
16:55:22  <fonsinchen> (at least I'm starting to have trouble fitting all my branches into the remaining 116 numbers)
16:56:13  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: maybe in 4-5 years :)
16:56:46  <Rubidium> we're just over half and was at version 1 about 6 years ago
16:57:22  <fonsinchen> actually nothing would break if I just raised that in my master branch ... or would it?
16:57:31  <Rubidium> no idea
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17:16:55  <Ammler> DanMacK: some toyland sprites are reused from other climas, but planetmaker closed that ticket, so they might be replaced already, not sure.
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17:44:01  <Ammler> Client #776  name: 'Pirate87'  status: 'loading map'  frame-lag: 44707 <-- might it be possible to autokill such clients?
17:54:13  <DanMacK> Ammler, Zephyris said they're not actually "toyland", just replaced from temp and such
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18:05:08  <Starn> whats this about openDUNE? this has gained my attintion O.O
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18:13:29  <peter1138> ?
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18:13:41  <peter1138> i guess that's a no from me :p
18:15:36  <DJNekkid> :D
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18:25:54  <andythenorth> hi hi
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18:36:25  <andythenorth> is it done yet?
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18:44:20  <peter1138> yup
18:45:09  <andythenorth> great
18:45:19  <andythenorth> oh no, I think I found a bug
18:46:06  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19375 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:06  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:06  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 5 changes by josesun
18:46:06  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hebrew - 5 changes by dnd_man
18:46:06  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 5 changes by prof
18:46:08  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by junho2813
18:46:08  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 1 changes by BlinK_
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18:56:32  <peter1138> no, that's a feature
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19:01:48  <andythenorth> hmmm....underground railways don't seem to be working in 32bpp.  When will that be fixed please?
19:01:52  <andythenorth> (on OS X)
19:02:53  <andythenorth> also, I dunno if you guys have noticed, but this game isn't very realistic.  I'll make a list of all the things that are wrong
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19:14:49  <frosch123> i think he broke down
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19:30:05  <Terkhen> hello
19:31:33  <Rubidium> ola Spain :)
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19:37:11  <OwenS> RAID array rebuild: 11% complete :-)
19:37:12  <__ln__> ello indeed
19:37:24  <OwenS> GRUB rebuild: Taking longer
19:37:34  <Terkhen> it's only monday and I'm already tired of my classes, what should I do?
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19:38:15  <Terkhen> false friend: I meant lessons :P
19:38:35  <Rubidium> Terkhen: seppuku?
19:39:07  <Terkhen> I'm reserving that for exam time
19:41:44  <jordi> Rubidium: it's all about Catalunya ;)
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19:54:37  <Zuu> Terkhen: What classes are you taking?
19:56:58  <__ln__> Zuu: lessons, he said
19:58:10  *** lestat [] has joined #openttd
19:58:13  <Terkhen> last year of computer science
19:58:19  <lestat> hola
19:58:20  <lestat> hi
19:59:18  <lestat> as I do for companies of players who are eliminated avandonado juice if you have income?
19:59:35  <lestat> si habla alguien español que me conteste por rpivado
20:00:12  <Belugas> meetings... i love you so much...
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20:00:28  <frosch123> better than user support
20:00:40  * Belugas nods
20:00:47  <Belugas> which i hate even more
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20:01:25  <__ln__> sí, hay algunos aquí que entienden español
20:03:18  <lestat> de lujo
20:03:31  <lestat> como hago para que las empresas de los jugadores que han avandonado el jugo se eliminen aunque tengan ingresos??
20:03:56  <lestat> perodn jugo = JUEGO
20:04:10  <lestat> perdon
20:04:21  <__ln__> *perdón
20:04:29  <lestat> jejejejejej
20:04:34  <lestat> bueno me ayudas?
20:05:33  <__ln__> no sé la respuesta, desgraciadamente
20:05:50  <lestat> jooo
20:06:20  <lestat> por que no te unes a mi serrvidor
20:06:25  <lestat> si te atreves claro
20:06:26  <lestat> jajajajaja
20:06:32  <__ln__> pero por ejemplo Eddi|zuHause normalmente sabe lo todo, y él entiende español
20:06:55  <__ln__> *lo -> el
20:07:22  <lestat> pero no esta
20:08:26  *** OwenS [] has joined #openttd
20:08:44  <lestat> por cierto cuando creeis que estara ya la version fianl la 1.0 ??
20:08:51  <lestat> hi
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20:11:59  <lestat> Spanish-speaking players invite you to join the channel # openttd_ES
20:14:02  <Elessar> #openttd-es would be a more habitual name.
20:14:04  <DJNekkid> peter1138: (or anyone) is Action0 property16 not supported in 1.0.0 RC2 ?
20:14:14  <DJNekkid> that is, railtypes
20:14:16  * __ln__ joins to spy and learn new vocabulary
20:14:26  <Elessar> #openttd-es sería un nombre mas habitual, lestat.
20:15:29  *** OwenS [] has joined #openttd
20:15:37  <peter1138> DJNekkid, evidentally not
20:15:40  <Starn> this is the first spanish convo i've fully understood in a long time lol
20:15:40  <frosch123> fans of lord-of-the-rings invite you to join the channel #openttd-lotr
20:16:51  <DJNekkid> peter1138: because, i saw you had that in your ng-rail thingy, and i thought it were a cool feature, but "people" seem to complain about something isnt working, and it were after i added property16 it seemed to occour
20:16:51  <Elessar> What does “convo” mean?
20:17:15  <Terkhen> convolution?
20:17:18  <Starn> converstaion.
20:17:28  <Starn> its text chat for phones...
20:18:00  <OwenS> And things RETURN TO NORMAL! YAY FOR RAID!
20:18:14  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: it isn't
20:18:48  <planetmaker> And... the required version should be 19306(?)
20:18:51  <planetmaker> thus newer
20:19:16  <planetmaker> You might want to adopt the minimum required version. Then the error message should be understandable.
20:19:42  <DJNekkid> or ican just remove the property, and re'add it at a later stage
20:19:45  <DJNekkid> :)
20:19:59  <planetmaker> I wouldn't go for that hassle.
20:20:11  <planetmaker> they should use a nightly
20:20:20  <planetmaker> it's a dev version anyway
20:20:31  <planetmaker> and RC is no stable one either
20:20:31  <DJNekkid> but we should also support 1.0.0 rc2 ...
20:20:38  <planetmaker> no. We should support 1.0.0
20:20:42  <planetmaker> RCs are not required
20:21:06  <planetmaker> and there'll come newer RC anyway most probably. so...
20:21:22  <DJNekkid> and property16 will be supported there? :P
20:21:30  <planetmaker> I'd assume so.
20:22:05  <planetmaker> If not, then there's still time to guard property 16 by an appropriate action7
20:22:34  <DJNekkid> yup...
20:22:44  <Rubidium> property 16 is smallmap colour?
20:22:47  <planetmaker> yes
20:23:11  <Rubidium> that's on the list for backport
20:23:20  <planetmaker> :-)
20:23:23  <lestat> as I do for companies of players who have left the game be removed even if they have income?
20:23:38  <frosch123> is the smallmap zoom already in 1.0 ?
20:23:50  <Rubidium> frosch123: in no out yes
20:24:04  <Starn> is there a possible way to code openttd to not create folder in mydocuments and things? to make it more portable eg on USB drive. and if so can some one help me understand that string of code so i can work on mataining a portable version of openttd?
20:24:05  <planetmaker> uh... is there in in trunk?
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20:24:08  <Jolteon> Hello.
20:24:15  <lestat> hi
20:24:16  <lestat> hola
20:24:18  <Jolteon> Can a .cfg file be reloaded in the middle of a game, or would it need to be restarted?
20:24:37  <Starn> i don't know i assume restarted.
20:24:46  <Jolteon> bleh
20:24:53  <planetmaker> Jolteon: there's a console command IIRC
20:24:54  <frosch123> unless there is a console command
20:25:15  <Jolteon> I've had a quick look through and can't see anything related to it
20:25:19  <Jolteon> I might be overlooking it though
20:26:17  <Rubidium> Jolteon: with dedicated network servers you can configure it to reload when starting a new game, other than that no
20:26:36  <planetmaker> ah, that's what I remembered then
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20:27:10  <Jolteon> Rubidium: Ah, fairy nuff.
20:27:25  <Rubidium> Starn: yes; read the readme for more information
20:27:42  <OwenS> Heh. Drive that failed is 3 months out of warranty. typical.
20:28:00  <Jolteon> OwenS: I've had a drive fail just 3 days after warranty went ;)
20:28:03  <Jolteon> That /was/ annoying.
20:28:06  <Starn> a certian command has caught my eye... [script <file>] says record a script to the file named <file> what does it mean exactly? like right now my mind is set on Macro scripts....
20:28:15  <Jolteon> Was a 3 year warranty too, not one of the silly 1 year ones.
20:28:27  <OwenS> Jolteon: I should feel glad that A) It's lasted me 3 years and B) It was half of a RAID1 set
20:28:39  <Rubidium> Starn: 'record' a script?
20:28:55  <Jolteon> OwenS: ah.
20:29:04  <Starn> yea.. on the wiki...
20:29:11  <Jolteon> 0.7.x saves are compatible with 1.0.0, right?
20:29:24  <Rubidium> Starn: then the wiki is wrong
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20:29:25  <OwenS> Jolteon: It's partner is reporting a number of old age flags, so I expect it's going soon as well :-(
20:29:28  <Rubidium> Jolteon: yes
20:29:29  <Starn> ctrl F and type script on console part of wiki and you can find it.
20:29:36  <Jolteon> aaand lastly.
20:29:45  <Jolteon> Is there anyway to make save on a dedicated server remember passwords, too?
20:29:57  <Jolteon> loading a save, doesn't reload the pass for that company.
20:30:05  <Rubidium> Jolteon: not at the moment
20:30:12  <Jolteon> Is it planned for a future update?
20:31:07  <planetmaker> Jolteon: that's a difficult thing actually :-)
20:31:15  <planetmaker> what about old savegames of yours?
20:31:19  <OwenS> (In particular, "  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0007   112   112   024    Pre-fail  Always       -       310 (Average 310)" looks a little ominous)
20:31:26  <planetmaker> It'd also render useless server side savegames
20:31:45  <Jolteon> hm, true.
20:32:04  <Jolteon> but a few users on my server keep going on about no passwords after we reload a save (which isn't /that/ often, being fair)
20:32:36  <Starn> and Rubidium the readme about portable apps does not cover my questions. every time i run game from external harddrive it creates an openttd folder in mydocuments on any computer. i do not need it to do so i would not mind so much if it did so on the harddrive or usb drive.
20:32:54  <Rubidium> Starn: and openttd.cfg is in the directory with the binary?
20:33:01  <Starn> yep
20:33:14  <Starn> and it still creates the openttd folder. in my documents.
20:33:35  <Starn> should it not be doing this?
20:33:42  <Rubidium> odd; it should not create it when it has openttd.cfg in another directory
20:34:16  <Starn> hmm i'll look into this than.. probably my end.. i do know both computers i've even played it on was win 7
20:34:29  <Rubidium> but then... ofcourse it's Windows
20:34:39  <Starn> so true.
20:34:51  <Rubidium> Starn: what if you use a batch file/shortcut "openttd -c openttd.cfg"?
20:35:12  <Starn> hmm maybe.
20:35:29  *** ajmiles [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:36:37  <Starn> at least your talking more into things i know vs to many scripts and programing languages lol
20:38:05  *** APTX_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:38:59  <Starn> well i got this batch to try out now.. now i just gotta visit my friend sometime. lol unless openTTD can run on windows 98. through an external HD for i am unable to use other computer that uses Vista or the one that uses XP atm.. though i shall download linux binarys for some of my friends use linux lol
20:39:35  <Rubidium> openttd can run on windows 98, you need to get the win9x binary though
20:40:00  <Starn> may not even create that folder using win9x binary than.
20:40:47  <Starn> debian openttd will work with ubuntu and the likes right? considering it is debian based?
20:41:45  <Rubidium> depending on the Ubuntu version you're using and the Debian package you download: yes or no
20:42:01  <Rubidium> currently mostly "no" though
20:42:46  <Starn> would generic work better? and i think they have ubuntu 8.01 though its been months since i used that computer. maybe i should worry about this when i can think for my self lol
20:44:03  <Rubidium> 8.10 might work with the Debian Lenny package (no guarantees though). The generic package will have a better chance of success (again no guarantees)
20:45:14  <Starn> lol yea.. i think i should probably worry about this when i have more time and my head is not foggy last time i tried messing with linux in my current condition i think i screwed it up and had to spend 3 days fixing it.
20:45:32  <Starn> since than i been scared to use linux in any toxicated form..
20:45:54  <lennard> heh
20:46:10  <lennard> I could test random linux-related stuffs if anyone needs it
20:46:21  <lennard> but I guess you probably have more then enough people already doing that
20:46:29  <Starn> linux + drunk = destroyed or nearly destroyed OS..
20:46:33  <lennard> hell no
20:46:37  <lennard> I do my best fixing when drunk
20:46:53  <Starn> i only do best when high.. which now days is rare..
20:47:42  <Starn> you might gotta take note last time i drank and used linux i had maybe gallon and half of liqour with small bottle of everclear...
20:48:14  <Rubidium> 6 liter of alcoholic beverage?
20:48:28  <Starn> my prefered drinks is vodka everclear rum and [gonna spell wrong] bacardi
20:48:32  <lennard> ok, that may be a bit much :P
20:48:35  *** lestat [] has quit [Quit:  MESIAS 7.4 by: Lois & JAP-]
20:48:45  <Starn> yes it was half gal of vodka and other half in rum
20:48:49  <Prof_Frink> I have seen someone, after having relatively little to drink, forget that sudo caches youe credentials for some time.
20:49:05  <Starn> lol
20:49:15  <Starn> don't allow them to drink like me.
20:49:22  <Starn> i have irish and german blood in me
20:49:26  <Starn> and scottish
20:49:36  <lennard> and russian?
20:49:45  <Starn> i think so..
20:49:59  <Prof_Frink> And look confused when a password prompt didn't appear after typing "sudo rm -rf /"
20:50:02  <Starn> i am mixed pup
20:50:12  <Starn> LOL
20:50:23  <lennard> but rm is supposed to stop you from rming / nowadays
20:50:32  <lennard> I admit, havent had the guts to test it yet :P
20:50:38  <aber1> We should check that...
20:50:49  <Starn> get a virtual machine and test it.
20:50:58  <lennard> yeah, been planning to do that for ages
20:50:59  <Starn> safest way i can think of.
20:51:04  <TrueBrain> planetmaker no longer loves us?:(
20:51:08  <lennard> but right now I cant find my private key
20:51:14  <lennard> so I cant make virtual machines right now :P
20:51:19  <Rubidium> lennard: just use one of those Solaris machines somewhere on the campus
20:51:39  <lennard> I think they disconnected most of em by now
20:51:49  <Prof_Frink> Or... nbaum's vm farm
20:52:39  <Starn> i suggest finding a VM that uses little resources when it is not needed and can run linux like a champ while in windows 7 with only 1gb ram and some how does not use so much memory when not in linux lol also somthing that can handle 512mb video ram if you know something leme know.
20:52:58  <lennard> wow
20:53:02  * planetmaker hugs TrueBrain
20:53:06  <lennard> that is *not* a coherent sentence :P
20:53:08  <planetmaker> why would I not?
20:53:16  <TrueBrain> you left the most important channel of all! :)
20:53:27  <planetmaker> oh... :-( unintentionally.
20:53:31  <Starn> lol see why me operating linux would be bad?
20:53:52  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: you just don't love us anymore :(
20:54:05  <Starn> windows is almost intoxicated proof >.> [laughs really hard over that statemment]
20:54:12  * planetmaker pets TrueBrain. Don't cry my dear boy...
20:54:15  <lennard> can run linux while in windows 7? wha? :P
20:54:39  * planetmaker is somewhat reminded of the 1-year old with whom I just shared dinner :-P
20:55:00  <TrueBrain> ghehe :)
20:55:25  <planetmaker> when did I leave actually? Just then now?
20:55:37  <Starn> i got an idea!! whats the smallest most powerful linux you guys know of that could run on VM under win7 with no lag or anything with only 1gb ram?
20:57:26  <lennard> what would you want to do with it? :)
20:57:27  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:57:32  <Starn> would need something that can support alot of kubuntu and ubuntu related tasks. maybe knoppix? i rather have debian based. but i thought of my poor little AI i been working on for about a year or two. and ways to test games out. while in VM.
20:57:42  <Starn> program and test games.
20:57:57  <lennard> besides, you should be running the windows inside a linux, not the other way round
20:58:17  <Prof_Frink> Nah. Run them both inside a BSD.
20:58:31  <Starn> well i don't feel like setting up a duel boot on a 320gb harddrive. that has nearly 200gb of music...
20:59:08  <Starn> plus i would probably have to wait till tomorrow before attempting duel boot setup or i might kill my computer.
21:00:27  <Starn> whom all has mac?
21:02:16  <Starn> i am looking into buying new computer. but i need windows for video games. and i am wondering how great the mac has support for windows i heard it was pretty good. from what i understand its a form of duel boot.
21:03:14  <aber1> How does Linux not serve windows?
21:03:23  <dih> ..?
21:03:32  <__ln__> os x and windows dueling during boot?
21:03:35  *** sparr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:03:42  *** aber1 is now known as aber
21:04:23  <dih> Starn, emulation and virtualization is good, but i'd not play games on it, at least nothing that requires 3d graphics acceleration
21:04:57  <Starn> heh only time i would play 3d game in linux is if i was using wine.
21:05:18  <dih> some people have managed to get css to run under wine
21:05:30  <dih> but i recall it to not be that great
21:06:32  <Starn> i heard mac packs powerful punch to it vs pc and been hearing that it recently supports windows. and overall is a better gaming machine vs pc. but my issue is cost. and wether or not windows really works or not.
21:06:36  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:06:53  <Starn> i played few windows based 3d games on wine.
21:06:59  <dih> games are available for mac os x
21:07:09  <dih> however they are usually out a few months later and cost a bunch more
21:07:10  <Starn> like americas army. and alot of fps now that i think about it.
21:07:18  <dih> nothing someone would buy with 'pocket money'
21:07:22  <OwenS> Starn: Macs tend to have bad graphics cards
21:07:23  <Starn> yea.
21:07:28  <Starn> eh
21:07:53  <Starn> do they have PCI Express slots? or is this strickly PC??
21:08:03  <Rubidium> I reckon you can get an equally fast non-Mac for (way) less than a Mac
21:08:13  <dih> aye
21:08:27  <dih> just depends on the definition of "way"
21:08:28  <dih> :-P
21:08:38  <Rubidium> Starn: Mac's are not supposed to have replaceable (by user) parts
21:08:42  <OwenS> Rubidium: The only thing I'll say is that, in laptop space, a mac is about the same price as an equally specced laptop of the same quality (i.e. lifespan)
21:08:57  <Starn> 16gb ram 512 vid ram 2TB 4 cores 3.2ghz intel for about 2k?
21:09:11  <OwenS> Who needs 16GB of RAM?
21:09:19  <Rubidium> OwenS: Windows 7 users
21:09:23  <Starn> <---- this guy
21:09:25  <Rubidium> it 'eats' a lot of memory
21:09:32  <Starn> indeed
21:09:38  <dih> Starn, you'd not even get to use half of that ram
21:09:40  <Starn> oddly runs smooth as butters on 1gb
21:09:48  <SirSquidness> steam for mac was announced a few hours ago. along with source engine for mac
21:09:56  <Rubidium> OwenS: I need more memory too; my machine is already using 64 MB of swap
21:09:58  <Starn> sweet!
21:10:09  <OwenS> Meh. KDE4 runs smoothly on 256MB. I found this surprising. Particularly as KDE3 didn't on the same :p
21:10:18  <Starn> lol
21:10:36  <Starn> well 16gb of ram is kinda needed for most the tasks i do..
21:10:40  <OwenS> Like?
21:11:00  <Rubidium> OwenS: IRC
21:11:03  <dih> Starn, may i ask a personal question?
21:11:04  <Starn> 3d graphics editing and massive amount of rendering and alot of multitasking
21:11:09  <dih> how old are you?
21:11:12  <Starn> 22
21:11:19  <OwenS> Currently I'm unswapped and with ~100MB of 2GB free. Plus 800MB of "cached swap".
21:11:23  <dih> and what do you do?
21:12:01  <aber> 1,90 GB free :D
21:12:10  <Starn> as a hobby i desing 3d models and program and run an internet radio and host 2 sites.
21:12:28  <dih> all on your laptop? :-P
21:12:31  <dih> hehe
21:12:39  <Starn> i don't own a laptop.
21:12:50  <OwenS> OK, all on your desktop? :p
21:13:00  <Starn> 86% memory used.
21:13:05  <thingwath> Somehow, my machine use 500MiB of swap. That's quite a lot.
21:13:15  <Starn> and yes most of it some are done on my other PC's like couple servers.
21:13:37  <Rubidium> thingwath: well, it depends on the situation
21:14:10  <OwenS> I've you've just finished compiling, say, Crystal Space's Python libraries, I'd say thats a very low number
21:14:19  *** asilv [] has quit []
21:14:20  <dih> Starn, i guess your java based torrent client eats more ram than everything else :-P
21:14:21  <OwenS> Python bindings**
21:14:21  <Rubidium> e.g. the 64 MB of swap that's used for me is of parts of applications that I haven't used for days, e.g. the startup code of my email client
21:14:34  <OwenS> Rubidium: That code shouldn't be swapped ;-)
21:14:36  <Starn> i don't use java based torrent.
21:14:41  <Starn> i hate java.
21:14:48  <thingwath> Well, it could fit in the free memory (700MiB of 2GiB used). So it's most likely some leftovers, maybe.
21:14:56  <Starn> corrently program using most ram is firefox.
21:14:59  <OwenS> Code should be backed by the file it comes from, not swap
21:15:07  <OwenS> Starn: Go Opera or Chrome then :p
21:15:25  <Rubidium> OwenS: true, but the memory allocated there
21:15:27  <Starn> next in line is itunes. after than is explorer at 60mb
21:15:56  <dih> then - in all honesty - i do not get why you only have 14% of free mem
21:16:04  <dih> unless you interpret the 'caches' incorrectly
21:16:04  <Starn> about 69 processes and about 50 of them needed to keep system stable.
21:16:22  <Starn> nope.
21:16:48  <OwenS> Hmm, Opera is using 472mb ram... not bad for 42 tabs
21:17:12  <Starn> my CPU is avg of 20%.
21:17:22  <Starn> 877mb of ram is being used.
21:17:54  <OwenS> Having all your RAM used is not an indication that you need more
21:18:12  <aber> 877 / 16384
21:18:19  <OwenS> It's an indication that your OS is working properly ;-)
21:18:21  <Starn> slow load times and 3d modeling programs crashing due to low ram does.
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21:18:46  <Starn> i have 1gb dedicated and 3d modeling is super slow.
21:18:50  <OwenS> Crashing due to low RAM? Erm... I've never seen an app crash due to low RAM
21:19:05  <Starn> really? happened alot on XP.
21:19:23  <OwenS> It shouldn't. The OS should just intensively swap...
21:19:23  <Starn> they would always say ran out of virtual ram and crash.
21:19:38  <OwenS> Oh, ran out of swap. Then yes, ram overcomitted
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21:20:09  <OwenS> But seriously, 1Gb to 16? You mad?!
21:20:13  <Starn> not sure how much ram my 3d software needs but it seems most people only get it to run remotely stable with 4gb or more.
21:20:20  <Starn> nah.
21:20:29  <OwenS> What 3D software?
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21:20:34  <Starn> not mad.. just fed up with medium to low end.
21:20:41  <Prof_Frink> OwenS: I've had irssi been killed by the beast of OOM.
21:20:51  <OwenS> Prof_Frink: SIGSEGV?
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21:21:35  <dih> i guess the first thing i'd do if i saw your computer would be turn a bunch of stuff off that nobody really needs
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21:21:43  <Starn> i use alot i like 3dmax and ugh what was that one starts with an m i think Unreal 3 uses it... recently i been using blender which is more low end. and free.. but the pay crap i have kills me and my photoshop when i click and drag has a 3-4 sec delay
21:22:00  <Starn> i've done that.
21:22:00  <Prof_Frink> Out of memory: kill process 18430 (irssi) score 55 or a child
21:22:01  <Prof_Frink> Killed process 18430 (irssi)
21:22:16  <dih> get a decent hd with NCQ, some fun ddr3 ram - dual channel, or trippel channel (depending on your cpu)...
21:22:16  <Starn> i managed to get it down to 60% memory
21:22:30  <Starn> DDR3 is not supported on my system
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21:23:08  <Starn> this pc is about 3-4 years old. hence why i am looking for a new one.
21:23:33  <Starn> the vid card is less than 1yr though so its still usable
21:23:38  <dih> yes, but a mac with it's 2.5" hd running at 5400 rpm will not really give you that much more
21:23:39  <OwenS> Prof_Frink: Wow... You disabled memory overcomittal?
21:24:51  <Prof_Frink> Pass. I disabled a lot of things.
21:24:56  <Starn> i do know this computer can not run the newest unreal editor well it can but every action has 2-5 second delay just like photoshop cs4 i think is the name..
21:25:30  <OwenS> Prof_Frink: Don't. Lots of processes will allocate quite a bit of memory they don't use assuming it's on
21:25:31  <Starn> gonna run couple scripts i have see how much memory they free up
21:25:57  <aber> The i mac uses standard 3,5'' 7200rpm hard-drives.
21:26:03  <dih> i'd start off buy shutting down services you do not need
21:26:17  <dih> i.e. torrent does not need to run 24/7
21:26:31  <Starn> thats what the scripts do.. and i don't run torrents 24/7
21:26:32  <dih> every browser supports bookmarks, so close a bunch of tabs
21:26:45  <Starn> only two tabs
21:26:54  <dih> esp. those 20 tabs on youtube
21:26:54  <Prof_Frink> OwenS: Generally if I didn't know what it was I left it as default
21:27:10  * andythenorth has an idea for a new type of transport (generic concept): 'packetways'
21:27:26  <OwenS> Prof_Frink: /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory
21:27:35  <dih> and if you buy a decent workstation for the same cache you need for an apple laptop, you are way better off with all the rendering you want to do
21:27:36  <Starn> here to make things easier for you to understand dih i shall end every thing that is not needed to run windows 7 and mIRC and tell ya how much memory is used.
21:27:42  <OwenS> Prof_Frink: It should be zero ;-)
21:27:50  <andythenorth> so pipelines are often discussed, and sometimes things like overhead cableways
21:27:52  <thingwath> Hm. I expect my system to put things I don't use into swap :)
21:28:02  <dih> ah - a windows 7 guy :-P
21:28:08  <dih> lol
21:28:13  <Starn> it was free
21:28:13  <dih> and you have 1GB of ram?
21:28:16  * OwenS hugs KDE
21:28:16  <Prof_Frink> OwenS: It is.
21:28:26  <Starn> yes better than vista which came with this pc
21:28:28  * dih hugs gnome :-P
21:28:30  <OwenS> Prof_Frink: Wow. Then the OOM killer means the *kernel* ran out of RAM
21:28:31  * andythenorth another brilliant suggestion lost in computer talk :P
21:28:35  <Starn> it uses less memory than vista..
21:28:48  <Starn> i prefer debian
21:28:48  <dih> lol @ OwenS
21:29:21  <dih> oh yes, debian is better than kda or gnome
21:29:23  <OwenS> dih: KDE3 I would have lamented it's hogginess.. KDE4 is actually pretty frugal
21:29:47  <dih> i looked at kde4 before it had a stable release
21:29:51  <dih> did they improve it that much?
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21:30:09  <OwenS> dih: I must say I like it, but I've liked it since the 3.97 betas
21:30:18  <thingwath> It likes to hides quite a lot of memory usage in X pixmaps.
21:30:45  <Starn> running mIRC and only things needed for windows 7 it uses 60%.
21:31:04  <Terkhen> andythenorth: packets as in network packets?
21:31:04  <OwenS> thingwath: I'm comparing system memory usage
21:31:27  <dih> Starn, your 60% is about 500 and something MB of memory
21:31:30  <OwenS> (Also, pretty graphics are an acceptable use of RAM IMO :P )
21:31:36  <dih> which is not that much
21:31:41  <Starn> i have couple tricks to bring it down to maybe 40% if i am lucky.
21:31:50  <Starn> 50% = 512mb
21:31:52  <thingwath> I know. Still. I'm running Amarok right now, and it has 50MiB in X pixmaps. That's a little silly.
21:32:09  <Starn> old or new amarok?
21:32:40  <thingwath> (such a nice version number)
21:33:08  <andythenorth> Terkhen: so a pipeline (for example) just has a direction of could be argued to move n 'packets' per minute
21:33:18  <OwenS> thingwath: How do you measure pixmap usage?
21:33:21  <thingwath> xrestop
21:33:41  <andythenorth> Terkhen: same for conveyor belts
21:33:45  <andythenorth> and ropeways
21:33:48  <andythenorth> and ski-lifts
21:33:53  <Terkhen> what about "junctions"?
21:34:01  <andythenorth> there's merging, but no splitting
21:34:31  <andythenorth> perhaps
21:34:38  <Starn> dunno how i got winamp to only use 10mb ram but i am happy!
21:34:57  <Starn> thats almost as good as XMplay
21:35:08  <andythenorth> or perhaps there are splitting junctions which divert x% to one route and y% to the other
21:35:13  <OwenS> thingwath: I currently have it using the same. I'd complain more about KWin's 144MB. Interestingly, it all seems to be swapped out!
21:35:23  <thingwath> :)
21:35:37  <OwenS> I wonder what the effect would be of setting the system's Qt to use "raster" rather than "x11" as the paint engine
21:35:45  <andythenorth> also log flumes would be packetways
21:35:57  <andythenorth>
21:36:12  <andythenorth> as would a bobsleigh run :)
21:36:33  <thingwath> Well, I have achieved the best user experience by not giving damn of these things (memory consumption, etc.) as long as everything runs reasonably well. It usually does :)
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21:36:42  <andythenorth> the point is, these things are still 'transport', but there's no vehicles.
21:37:01  <Starn> also i use alot of memory when using my audio software when i am recording songs unless i am making midi's that i use virtualy nothing
21:38:11  <__ln__> *midis
21:38:37  <OwenS> thingwath: TBH, a bigger affector of my system at the moment is my RAID array rebuild ;-)
21:39:35  <peter1138> you're using the wrong instruments, heh
21:39:36  <thingwath> Most likely. Excess I/O operations hurts :(
21:39:41  <dih> OwenS, battery backup unit? write cache?
21:39:49  <Terkhen> I think it could be "simulated" with road vehicles, with each vehicle representing an increment in capacity
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21:40:31  * peter1138 has one piano instrument that uses nearly 1GB, and that's a small one
21:40:44  <OwenS> dih: The RAID array?
21:40:52  <dih> no - the raid controller :-P
21:41:12  <OwenS> dih: Linux MD Softraid
21:41:19  <OwenS> HDD failure
21:41:26  <dih> oh - ouch
21:41:33  <OwenS> No data lost :-)
21:41:48  <SpComb^> linux md <3 <3
21:42:14  <OwenS> MD is more reliable than, and often faster than, hardware RAID-1
21:42:21  <andythenorth> Terkhen: possibly.  that has been talked about before I think.  might depend on roadtypes...
21:42:21  <SpComb^> yes
21:42:25  <SpComb^> and far superior management
21:42:30  <SpComb^> and portability across machines
21:42:32  <OwenS> (Also, I've seen more reports of data loss through RAID controller failures than I care for!)
21:44:00  <peter1138> yeah, biggest problem with hw raid is vendor lockin
21:44:22  <OwenS> TBH, my favorite is RAID-Z, but Linux doesn't support that
21:44:58  <peter1138> often the controller will see a drive failure, and will refuse to let you even do any recovery
21:45:02  <OwenS> Hehe
21:45:13  <OwenS> RAID-Z = ZFS' built in RAID system, and it's awesome
21:45:32  <peter1138> "yes, in the disk is fucked, yes i know it's not reliable, yes, i know my backup scheme should've been better, but god damn it, let me see that data
21:45:35  <peter1138> "
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21:45:49  <peter1138> s/in the/i know the/
21:46:03  <OwenS> My only complaint with MD RAID is that it doesn't create loud sirens when a HD dies
21:46:24  <peter1138> not much call for them in, say, a datacentre
21:46:37  <OwenS> No, but it could notify me some way better than mailing root
21:46:50  <OwenS> And the first I hear of it shouldn't be when an update fails to write to /boot
21:46:53  <peter1138> simple enough to monitor /proc/mdstat and send an email to somewhere else
21:47:16  <OwenS> Or run mpeg123 loudsiren.wav repeatedly :p
21:47:39  <SpComb^> OwenS: configure it to mail somewhere else, or read your root@ mails
21:47:43  <Starn> lol my alarm clock is my computer hooked up to 1000watt amp with 12" and 20" speakers nearly maxed out to play air raid siren at certian time.. first time that went off i was super happy i do not have bunk beds
21:48:24  <OwenS> SpComb^: I read root@ on my server... on localhost, I don't...
21:48:43  <SpComb^> OwenS: forward them or whatever
21:49:15  <SpComb^> and then fix those cron scripts that error out and have sent you a mail every five minutes for the past two years :)
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21:49:20  <peter1138> root isn't supposed to recieve mails, heh
21:49:25  <peter1138> but never mind
21:49:29  <__ln__> *receive
21:49:34  <__ln__> english only
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21:50:06  <Starn> i think he was using english?
21:50:06  <OwenS> SpComb^: Hehe. It was annoying when I woke up one morning with ~200 mails in my inbox from my server announcing a cron had completed successfully
21:50:12  <dih> \o/
21:50:16  <dih> oh my oh my
21:51:00  <Prof_Frink> __ln__: It should say "English and Bad English only"
21:51:06  <SpComb^> this ancient FreeBSD machine running 'ere has the annoying behaviour to send an "All 21 scripts ran succesfully" main every 'effin day
21:51:13  <OwenS> And then I couldn't get shell access for another 6 hours. so I had to put up with my phone vibrating every 5 minutes for the rest of the day
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21:51:21  <SpComb^> and it isn't configureable to not do that without patching /usr/bin/
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21:53:01  <Starn> indeed what Prof_Frink said.. i think i have the worst english in this channel. for someone whom natively speaks it. than again i am going on no sleep for maybe 40 hours and intoxicated. but normally i suck at spelling and grammar anyways. anyways i gtg. spend time with teh girl she getting mad lol
21:53:21  <__ln__> *then
21:53:58  <Starn> plus i spell things with southren accent :P
21:54:13  <SpComb^> *I
21:54:19  <Belugas> HI Haaaaa
21:54:24  *** Starn [] has quit []
21:54:58  <Belugas> mmh... no... that's more western...
21:55:56  <Prof_Frink> It's all Merkin.
21:56:20  <peter1138> pubic wigs?
21:56:27  <Prof_Frink> Quite.
22:02:49  <Belugas> gone hone
22:02:56  <Belugas> enjoy evening/nigh
22:19:53  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19376 /branches/1.0/src/ (28 files in 6 dirs): (log message trimmed)
22:19:53  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
22:19:53  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Feature: [NewGRF] Smallmap colours for railtypes (r19307)
22:19:53  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Change: Update documentation for console command connect to use ip:port#company parameter format, in line with command line help (r19374)
22:19:53  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Change: [NewGRF] Increase railtype cost range (r19306)
22:19:54  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] List valuator could cause invalid iterators [FS#3665] (r19367)
22:19:56  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Close error messages about missing ownership when the company closes or is taken over [FS#3663] (r19358, r19357)
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22:20:44  <PeterT> peter1138: :-(
22:21:22  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
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22:25:39  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
22:29:34  <peter1138> ...
22:29:54  <jonty-comp> rather
22:30:09  <jonty-comp> peter1138: how dare you make such a big change without asking the community first
22:30:18  <jonty-comp> this sort of thing should be put to vote!
22:31:33  <peter1138> yes
22:31:37  <peter1138> nasty documentation change!
22:33:50  <PeterT> I was right before, and now I have wrong!
22:37:50  <peter1138> pfft
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22:40:10  <Zuu> PeterT: hehe
22:43:27  <SpComb^> why couldn't company #0 be spectator
22:43:47  <PeterT> Because OpenTTD is awesome like that
22:44:16  <Zuu> SpComb^: Why not #255?
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23:58:16  <Terkhen> good night
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