Log for #openttd on 14th March 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:59  <TrueBrain> HAPPY PI DAY!!
00:02:33  <OwenS> lol
00:02:51  <KenjiE20> uk doesn't get one :(
00:03:23  <Spoons> 14/03/2010 (local) nor 2010-03-14 looks even remotely like pie!
00:03:33  *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
00:04:18  <KenjiE20> no but 3.14 does in US-land
00:04:59  <Chris_Booth> evening all
00:05:34  <TrueBrain> normally I have pie at pi-day ... but now it is sunday .. sucks
00:05:58  <Chris_Booth> whats pi day?
00:06:14  <OwenS> Chris_Booth: 14th March (3.14)
00:06:27  <Chris_Booth> no its the 14/3
00:06:31  <KenjiE20> pay attention Booth
00:06:32  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:06:34  <KenjiE20> we just went over this
00:06:42  <KenjiE20> :)
00:06:46  <Chris_Booth> i only just read it i am sorry KenjiE20
00:06:54  <KenjiE20> :P
00:06:55  <Chris_Booth> how is coop without me?
00:07:01  <KenjiE20> fine
00:07:11  <KenjiE20> you're unbanned btw
00:07:12  <Chris_Booth> bet its much quiter
00:07:17  <KenjiE20> dunno if anyone told you
00:07:17  <Chris_Booth> i know i am
00:07:31  <Chris_Booth> but i am to emabrased to rejoin
00:07:36  <KenjiE20> lol
00:07:42  <KenjiE20> learn to lock you're PC
00:07:46  <KenjiE20> s/you're/your/
00:07:52  <Chris_Booth> after what my housemate wrote to you can then try to give away
00:08:02  <Chris_Booth> learnt to lock my door
00:08:05  <TrueBrain> sure, say it was your housemate
00:08:07  <TrueBrain> sure
00:08:13  <KenjiE20> hah
00:08:33  <KenjiE20> ahh the interwebs, home of cynicism
00:09:05  <Chris_Booth> TrueBrain: put it this way it want me that typed it
00:09:14  <Chris_Booth> i wouldnt call this person my mate persay
00:09:18  <Chris_Booth> but i live with him
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00:09:50  <TrueBrain> you sense no make do not
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00:10:21  <TrueBrain> owh well ... you say hello, I say goodnight. Goodnight goodnight. You say hello, I say goodnight
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00:10:25  <Chris_Booth> i make sense if you know what i am talking about
00:10:35  <TrueBrain> even then, Chris_Booth, even then :)
00:10:40  <KenjiE20> no you don't
00:10:46  <TrueBrain> Night all :)
00:10:47  <KenjiE20> :D
00:10:50  <KenjiE20> o/
00:11:02  <OwenS> night
00:11:12  <OwenS> ...too late it seems
00:11:25  <Chris_Booth> its only 00:11
00:11:25  <TrueBrain> never
00:11:30  <OwenS> Or not. Looking in wrong place. Hiding part/join messages has it's disadvantages
00:11:39  <TrueBrain> ;)
00:13:02  * OwenS wonders how to ascertain the type of parser he's implemented :p
00:13:21  <KenjiE20> *somehow*
00:13:49  <FauxFaux> OwenS: You implemented it, so it's not LR, so just say it's LL with an arbitary number afterwards.
00:14:05  <OwenS> FauxFaux: In that case, it will be LL(1), since I only look ahead one symbol :p
00:14:38  <OwenS> I think? I certainly don't look further ahead than the symbol I just asked the lexer for :p
00:14:57  <FauxFaux> Unless you're imortal or something, then it's concievable you actually managed to get an LR parser to work.
00:16:01  <OwenS> It doesn't help that the Wikipedia articles are impenetrable :p
00:16:21  <Chris_Booth> i am not a fan of wiki
00:17:24  <OwenS> Chris_Booth: Calling Wikipedia "wiki" is like calling the A1 "road": Calling something specific by an ambiguous name refering to what it is
00:17:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> HAPPY PI DAY!! <-- i'm just wondering what they'll do in 5 years, because then it's 3/14/15
00:17:36  <FauxFaux> The tiger book has a 20 page worked example for LR(0) nad it's still unpossible.
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00:18:40  <OwenS> Heh. My parser comes in at 535 lines and it's not for a particularly simplistic grammar (Note to self: Write a formal description of grammar. That is, one more formal than a handcoded C++ recursive descent parser)
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00:26:01  <Jolteon> When creating a town, is there any set pattern for creating towns?
00:26:20  <Jolteon> Cause tiny 300 people village has 3 huge shopping malls
00:26:34  <Jolteon> and this little village with 210 has a ruddy football stadiym
00:26:36  <Jolteon> as iff xD
00:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: why do you even write a parser yourself, instead of using a parser generator like every sane person?
00:28:14  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Which do you suggest? Cause Yacc/bison suck horribly
00:28:30  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: what kind of "suck"?
00:28:48  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: For a start, use of global variables. For another, they assume C style code
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01:46:04  <Lapsus> Hello! :3
01:48:39  <PeterT> Hello Lapsus
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09:44:51  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
09:44:51  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 23 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Pikka> hrrrrrrrrrrr
09:45:04  <andythenorth> grr
09:45:13  <andythenorth> I need more refits for AV8 :|
09:49:39  * andythenorth hey, pikka just replied to my forum thread.  must be telepathic
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09:57:23  <Terkhen> good morning
10:00:36  <planetmaker> morning Terkhen
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10:04:46  <andythenorth> morning
10:09:39  <frosch123> hmm, indeed "morning", what am i doing here that early?
10:09:49  <jordi> Rubidium: I don't think that (grfcodec not being in archive) would be a reason to reject opengfx. I bet their scripts actually check for deps in the new queue
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10:09:58  <jordi> Rubidium: I think it's common practice
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10:12:35  <andythenorth> planeset good, AV8 better :)
10:27:07  * andythenorth is very excited by the idea of new airports
10:28:04  * andythenorth wonders if industry funding cost be calculated depending on player's available money?
10:32:41  <Rubidium> andythenorth: it isn't
10:33:02  <andythenorth> sorry, 'could it be?' /s
10:34:49  * Alberth orders a factory with golden stairs, and a large main port with diamonds from andythenorth
10:35:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: does the palette have a 'sparkle' cycle?
10:35:46  <Alberth> it'd look electrifying, wouldn't it?
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10:39:45  <planetmaker> lool @ Alberth's order
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10:43:20  <Alberth> and I don't even own the factory :(
10:56:55  * planetmaker gulps. Nooo! really?!
10:57:01  <planetmaker> (pun intended)
10:59:08  * Alberth places the factory right across his head quarters for a good view
11:00:59  * Alberth considers changing jobs
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11:05:28  <roboboy> hello
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11:10:31  <Alberth> hello
11:10:43  <Pikka> bonjour
11:11:39  <__ln__> yakshemash
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11:12:33  <lestat> hi all
11:12:43  <Alberth> hi
11:13:45  <andythenorth> Pikka: hi hi
11:15:14  <lestat> I created a game who joins?
11:16:09  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <-- this happens after the first month, I'm testing FIRS r611
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11:16:58  <lestat>
11:17:00  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I get that too
11:17:05  <andythenorth> something must be missing from the water plant
11:17:13  <andythenorth> does it happen for any other industries?
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11:17:24  <Gorillagram> well that's torn it...
11:17:35  <Terkhen> not that I noticed, let me check
11:17:42  <andythenorth> Terkhen: actually do you mean the stupid production, or the missing string?
11:17:51  <Terkhen> the production
11:18:07  <andythenorth> ok, that's a known issue :|
11:18:18  <andythenorth> it's a bug of the 'unfinished' kind
11:18:40  * andythenorth needs to think about how water is handled in FIRS
11:19:03  <Terkhen> oh, okay :)
11:19:50  <Zuu> lestat: What differs your game from all other servers?
11:20:31  <andythenorth> Water Plants....should they produce 'food' (water packed in bottles?)  I think not.
11:20:43  <Terkhen> I find that strange too
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11:20:47  <andythenorth> when planning FIRS we thought they might produce food for some reason.
11:20:57  <andythenorth> could be so they could appear in other climate
11:21:00  <andythenorth> s
11:21:01  <lestat> NewGRFs
11:22:18  * andythenorth wonders if water plants are like fishing harbours....and should therefore accept both engineering supplies and manufacturing supplies
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11:25:06  <andythenorth> RL  vs gameplay:  water can be shipped in bottles ('manufacturing supplies').  But who really cares?
11:26:49  <andythenorth> ^ nobody apparently :P
11:27:01  <Rubidium> andythenorth: then call them recyclable bottles and ship them from towns back to the industry
11:27:18  <Rubidium> plus an industry that makes those bottles
11:27:28  <andythenorth> waste -> recycling plant -> manufacturing supplies?
11:27:36  <andythenorth> that was the plan, until I culled waste as a boring cargo
11:27:55  <Rubidium> it probably is
11:27:57  <andythenorth> bottles come from the glass plant and plastic plant initially
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11:28:45  * andythenorth afk
11:30:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: waste is different in the sense that it is opposite in direction compared with mine -> factory -> ... -> factory -> city
11:34:54  <Alberth> adding some old old steel with the ore to produce steel has benefits: "..has drastically reduced energy and material requirements compared with refinement from iron ore" (wikipedia)
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11:55:13  <Singaporekid> Scout should have bonk and sticky launcher to take out sentries in the event of failteams
11:56:04  <Pikka> good point
12:03:56  <Singaporekid> Hmm, can't fire while invulnerable though
12:04:10  <Singaporekid> Maybe demomon should have bonk instead so he can scores taunt while invulnerable
12:04:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19413 /trunk/src/rail.h: -Codechange: Merging RailtypeFlag enum (a bit number) with RailTypeFlags enum (had values only).
12:05:09  <Alberth> Singaporekid: we are supposed to understand what you say?
12:05:18  <Singaporekid> Only on weekdays
12:05:22  <Alberth> phew
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12:39:51  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19414 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Doc: Several doxygen additions and corrections.
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12:57:34  <Pikka> o
12:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> why does that nick always remind me of Skittles?
12:59:20  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19415 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: Forward CommandCost with an error back to the caller.
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13:04:47  <Scuddles> Why doesn't it?
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13:49:52  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19416 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Code style, move variable declarations to their first use.
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13:58:04  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've fixed the FIRS water plant.  Should show up in nightly later today.  Won't be save game compatible though!
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14:02:20  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19417 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: More code style, move variable declarations to their first use.
14:02:54  <Zuu> Lol, my new water boiler "This product must not be used by anyone (ncluding children) suffering from physical or mental impairment". Luckily hearing impairment is not covered by that so I'm allowed to use the product. :-)
14:04:03  <OwenS> Zuu: Hearing is not  a physical impairment? :p
14:04:42  <Zuu> As far as I'm aware it does usually not fall under that category.
14:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose the majority of people here have mental impairment :p
14:05:38  <Zuu> Otherwise I'd love to park at the special parking lots etc. :-p
14:06:34  <andythenorth> frosch123 / anyone industry cb 3D, does that reliably run every time cargo arrives at an industry?  I have a case where I don't want to use production cb, but I do want to do something when cargo arrives....
14:08:50  <frosch123> it is run everytime cargo is delivered, but be careful, it is called more than once. e.g. once per vehicle and gradual loading step or even more often
14:09:19  <frosch123> the production callback otoh is called only once, which is likely different from ttdp
14:09:49  <frosch123> s/per vehicle/per wagon resp. articulated part/
14:09:57  <andythenorth> I have working code based on the production cb, but in the industry window, I have no use for the 'cargo waiting to be processed' string (in this specific case)
14:10:09  <andythenorth> It's not a big deal, just a nice tweak for players
14:10:13  <andythenorth> I might not bother
14:10:14  <frosch123> however the number and time of calls is not set in stone and might change
14:11:16  <andythenorth> that case my production cb code might produce wrong results in some situations.  I hope I've covered that though.
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14:31:20  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19418 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Code style fix for ValParamTrackOrientation().
14:37:04  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19419 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_object.cpp bridge_gui.cpp command.cpp): -Codechange: Use failed CommandCost object to retrieve message instead of _error_message.
14:41:48  <Terkhen> andythenorth: thanks :)
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15:14:48  <Chrill> Any norwegians here?
15:18:13  <fonsinchen> May I request an empty operator=, copy-constructor and default constructor for PoolItem?
15:19:08  <fonsinchen> like this:
15:21:02  <fonsinchen> Shall I make that a bug report? You cannot copy-construct or assign any pooled objects. I think that's bad ...
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15:30:52  <planetmaker> Alberth, I don't assume that any windows binary uses SDL.
15:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> why? if it's possible to configure, so why are you certain that not even 0.0001% of the windows users do that?
15:33:36  <planetmaker> one could certainly. Looks like it is as recommended as on OSX then ;-)
15:33:39  <planetmaker>
15:35:15  <andythenorth> waste is boring cargo....just loads of trucks moving around town.   But hey an AI could do that right?
15:36:42  <Eddi|zuHause> that "32 colour" screenshot looks almost like the mars climate :p
15:36:58  <Alberth> planetmaker: it just shows how much I know about Windows :p
15:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny, the image is 1600x1200 but the resolution says 1920x1200
15:38:56  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it cannot be difficult to make a 'Mars' advanced setting then :)
15:42:19  <andythenorth> there ought to be a secondhand market in vehicles.
15:42:53  <andythenorth> after the model is no longer available new, it should remain available at a seriously depreciated price (reliability is probably already covered for that).
15:42:56  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19420 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp road_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Don't use _error_message to keep track of success/failure, use a had_success boolean.
15:43:33  <Alberth> with high running costs :)
15:43:53  <andythenorth> Alberth: pikka already has that bit covered with NARS 2
15:44:11  <andythenorth> it can all be done in newgrf I guess
15:45:01  <andythenorth> if the game showed 'purchased' date instead of 'build' date that would be handy
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15:46:03  <Alberth> doesn't that look funny for a train engine?
15:46:30  <andythenorth> dunno.  US railroads are often trading engines.  Short lines use a lot of old engines, some are 50 years old
15:47:18  <Alberth> you only know that because they state the build date
15:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> these US guys apparently didn't understand the concept of electrification...
15:48:25  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: isn't it mostly freight?  I never see an American movie with a train, only with planes or buses
15:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> in Dogma they use the train :)
15:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the americans totally screwed up their passenger train service...
15:50:48  <andythenorth> :| pikka forbids me cattle cars after a certain date
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15:50:56  * andythenorth considers coding an add on for NARS 2
15:51:16  * andythenorth considers flying cattle
15:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, livestock transport also bothers me in DBSet
15:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> because the fastest livestock transport is 100km/h, while all other cargo gets a 120km/h wagon
15:54:16  * andythenorth considers building a highway
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16:07:55  <Zuu> Is there someone who is good at windows command prompt escaping? As far as I understood if I enclose a parameter in " and replace all " with "" in the parameter string itself it should be safe? As in whatever the parameter string is, it can't be used to execute abritary commands?
16:09:43  <Zuu> I have noticed that including ; or && in the password parameter could break OpenTTD reading of the password parameter, but will not let you execute any commands as long as you ar forbidden to insert single ".
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16:26:31  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Livestock isn't transported by DB any more. So there are no real modern livestock wagons.
16:26:56  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i know the argument, but it harms gameplay
16:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it's "too realistic" :)
16:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> what do i do with a "D.img" [4GB] and a "D2.img" [16GB]?
16:29:44  <fonsinchen> Yay! Now my autogrowing goods entry vector is finally faster than the array
16:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like D is a prefix of D2
16:29:56  <fonsinchen> ... by 6 seconds in 12 minutes ... :|
16:30:07  <planetmaker> lol @ fonsinchen :-)
16:30:22  <planetmaker> Think of it in terms of green IT: you save power :-)
16:30:24  <fonsinchen> However, it also saves space
16:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, not really
16:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> first difference is Byte 193720361
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16:31:03  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Modern trucks (eGRVS) are a ggod replacement for trains (even is livestock on eGRVS vehicles looks funny).
16:32:12  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: but "TTD is een Isenbahnspeel."
16:33:12  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Stop sounding like MB and get serious again. :-)
16:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, his arguments can quickly be used against him...
16:33:56  <planetmaker> :-D
16:33:57  <fjb> Just don't discuss with him.
16:35:13  <OwenS> fonsinchen: Did you end up using the likely/unlikely macros?
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16:38:35  <fonsinchen> no, I avoided the length checks where possible and removed one layer of indirection
16:38:55  <fonsinchen> most things only query all existing goods entries
16:39:30  <fonsinchen> thus you can do a for(Bla::Iterator i(begin()); i < end(); ++i)
16:40:02  <fonsinchen> then you are sure you stay within the given length and thus you don't need to override operator* or operator-> of the iterator
16:40:10  <Eddi|zuHause> question: can the upgradecost from railtype 1 to railtype 2 be adjusted by the newgrf?
16:40:58  <planetmaker> not that I know, Eddi|zuHause
16:41:13  <planetmaker> how are they determined, though? Difference in purchase price?
16:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause> because in some cases upgrading might only include the difference of the cost, while in other cases, upgrading includes removing and rebuilding stuff, which makes it almost as ore even more expensive than building new rail
16:43:25  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19421 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove explicit use of _error_message from CmdConvertRail().
16:43:44  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the price you "pay" is the hassle with replacing the vehicels ;-)
16:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i think Alberth is racist against global variables
16:44:08  <Alberth> only one at a time :)
16:44:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'm specifically aiming at "compatible" railtypes
16:54:32  *** Nite [] has joined #openttd
16:54:44  <Nite> Hi
16:55:00  <planetmaker> ho
16:55:14  <Nite> right place and tiem to talk about bugs?
16:55:50  <planetmaker> you could try
16:56:05  <planetmaker> bugs in acrobat distiller go elsewhere, though
16:56:22  <Nite> ottd bugs off cource
16:56:26  <planetmaker> :-)
16:56:26  <Nite> s
16:57:25  <Nite> i have noticed that  a "non onway" track which has a path signal at one end and a block at the other will crash trains
16:58:03  <planetmaker> I guess you should show that in either a screenshot and / or a savegame
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16:59:18  <planetmaker> as  I have never seen that kind of bug. Also: what version of OpenTTD do you use? (There's no 'latest')
16:59:19  <Nite> could demonstrate it on a 1.0rc2 server ...
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17:00:01  <Nite> if u like
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17:00:30  <Nite> if anyone likes
17:03:21  <Alberth> an explanation + a save game    is more useful for bug hunting
17:03:31  <Nite> server is called "strange crash"
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17:04:02  <Nite> demonstration is useful here - 2 phases
17:04:17  <Alberth> I don't know what patches the server is running, I'd prefer a demo in a local unmodified copy
17:04:31  <Nite> no patches
17:04:37  <Nite> 1.0.0 rc2
17:05:17  <Alberth> you cannot submit a server to a bug report in FlySpray
17:05:55  <Alberth> neither can a dev run local tests to find the cause
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17:06:23  <Nite> i try to set it up so the trains will cras
17:07:28  <Alberth> ok, submit the save game + explanation how to reproduce to FlySpray please (
17:07:53  <Nite> i try to
17:08:13  <Nite> crash should happen when unpause the game
17:09:44  <Alberth> just to be at the safe side, do not use any NewGRFs
17:09:55  <Nite> newgrfs are used
17:10:15  <Alberth> then it could also be a bug in the NewGRF :(
17:10:17  <planetmaker> Nite, you can save the game the server is running
17:10:31  <planetmaker> and test whether it works in single player for you.
17:10:40  <planetmaker> If so: then do as Alberth suggested :-)
17:10:46  <Nite> but its 2 trains seperated by 2 signals, so they shouldnt crash
17:11:12  <Alberth> indeed, if they do, it is a bug
17:11:20  <planetmaker> can you maybe make a quick screenshot of the situation and post it somewhere?
17:11:33  <Alberth> we just try to eliminate as much possibilities that we can
17:11:40  <planetmaker> Alberth, not if trains are turned and go backwards through a path signal
17:11:49  <Nite> the server is online - you can take a saave from there
17:11:56  <planetmaker> Nite, I can't.
17:12:06  <planetmaker> You are online. So...
17:12:15  <Nite> you are 2 so
17:12:18  <planetmaker> what's the issue to test locally?
17:12:23  <Alberth> Nite: you can also post at the forum (general openttd probably)
17:12:40  <Nite> ill test it in singleplayer and without newgrfs first
17:12:43  <planetmaker> Nite, I'm connected to IRC. But not to any server nor can I connect to any right now
17:13:04  <planetmaker> It's also fine to report the error with newgrfs. They shouldn't do cause such bugs either.
17:13:07  <Alberth> I don't even have 1.0-RC2 here :)
17:13:12  <planetmaker> Alberth, me neither :-)
17:13:21  <Nite> dl it ;)
17:13:22  <planetmaker> nor elsewhere
17:13:29  <planetmaker> Nite, not for my platform.
17:13:38  <Nite> ic
17:13:54  <Nite> server is online anyway ...
17:14:08  <Nite> testing ...
17:14:30  <Alberth> post of an image would help a lot already
17:16:03  <Nite> on flyspray?
17:16:06  <planetmaker> e.g. use to quickly upload a screenshot.
17:16:06  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:16:13  <planetmaker> maybe it's no bug after all.
17:17:02  <Nite> when 2 trains are seperated by 2 signals and both enter the same block it shouldnt happen so its pretty buggish