Log for #openttd on 15th April 2010:
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00:01:36  <__ln__> i wonder if 3d-ness would make the game more realistic
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00:10:46  <Pulec> i've been reading wiki page a while ago, about towns
00:10:59  <Pulec> and there was part that needed rework?
00:11:22  <Pulec> so i understand that well placed and well suplied stations affects the town level most?
00:11:32  <Pulec> goods do not affect that?
00:13:08  <Cadde> You mean local authority?
00:13:43  <Belugas> yes, glx :)  And it's a good feeling ;)
00:13:51  <Belugas> now.. back to TV with my wife...
00:15:41  <__ln__> you both fit inside?
00:15:59  <Cadde> Pulec: You mean local authority?
00:16:17  <Pulec> i mean growth of the city
00:16:27  <Pulec> i did not write that, heh, sorry
00:17:46  <Cadde> Growth i think is based on passengers transported. Or frequency of the same.
00:17:48  <Cadde>
00:18:01  <Cadde> Look at that and see if it can clear things up ^
00:19:55  <Pulec> oh i didnt read that, thx
00:21:04  <Cadde> This might help if game mechanics doesn't
00:21:04  <Cadde>
00:21:20  <Cadde> It's the code for town growth changes
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00:28:58  <Pulec> if the one tile is 686km long, and town is 20 tiles away from another town, that makes the distance between towns over 13 thousand km, wierd, huh?
00:32:47  <Cadde> Pulec: Eh? Where is that notion of tiles representing 686km ?
00:33:06  <Pulec> sorry my mistake
00:33:36  <Pulec> The game has many rules to make vehicles move fairly realistically. A vehicle travelling at 100 mph (160kph) will cross 5.6 tiles per day.
00:33:43  <Pulec> understood it wrongly
00:33:52  <Cadde> I hope so :D
00:33:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Pulec: if a tile is 25m long, the distance will be 500m, which is kinda weird as well, huh?
00:34:13  <Pulec> yeah it is
00:34:46  <Cadde> I don't think of towns as cities. It's more like districts in a larger city when they are that close (20 tiles)
00:35:07  <Cadde> So a cluster of towns that can basically touch is one large city.
00:35:51  <Pulec> yep and its metropolis
00:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> long story short: you can't compare ingame scales like that
00:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the tile size may be practically any number between 5m and 5000m
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00:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the width of a road for example is 8-10m
00:38:14  <Cadde> The one thing i dislike is the lack of game time to speed scale.
00:38:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the length of a runway is easily several km
00:38:55  <Cadde> Trains really should zip across the map if you run at normal daylengths
00:39:31  <Cadde> But changing that would require changing practically everything
00:39:38  <Pulec> how long takes one month in game? 5 min?
00:39:55  <Cadde> 74 ticks a day. That i know for sure
00:40:04  <Pulec> ticks?
00:40:13  <Eddi|zuHause> a year is about 15 minutes
00:40:13  <Cadde> Yeah, the internal clock of the game
00:40:31  <Pulec> hh
00:40:58  <Eddi|zuHause> there are about 30 ticks per second, making a day around 2.5 seconds
00:41:05  <Cadde> So yeah, once 74 ticks have passed you have a new day. (Unless you use the daylength patch)
00:41:37  <Cadde> And if the game is running slow those 74 ticks can take longer.
00:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure, could be either 33 or 35 ticks per second
00:41:58  <Cadde> I.e if your CPU usage is 200% then a day would take 5 seconds as opposed to 2.5
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00:42:53  <Cadde> And trains would seem to move choppy as they are redrawn every tick. 15 frames per second at 200% CPU usage basically.
00:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause> ooooh... on my 386 ticks could last 2 seconds.
00:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> with 80 trains
00:45:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i never made it more than 10 years into a game
00:45:15  <Cadde> Also bare in mind, OTTD uses only ONE core no matter if you have 2 or 16 cores on your CPU. A higher clock frequency is better than more cores when it comes to OTTD
00:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so around 1930 to 1940
01:00:50  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: damn the forums did it again...
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01:08:23  <|NoobCp|> Is the edge distance limit for oil refineries obsolete by any chance, or does it not apply in the scenario editor?
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01:09:07  <PeterT> NoobCp: I think it still applies
01:09:14  <PeterT> there is a patch to get rid of the limit
01:09:22  <PeterT> I haven't (personally) tested it though
01:09:53  <NoobCp> Strange, I just bult it it on a location 128x63
01:09:59  <PeterT>
01:10:37  <Eddi|zuHause> some limits don't apply in the scenario editor
01:10:52  <NoobCp> Fun, just thought it was strange
01:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if the refinery limit is one of them
01:11:21  <Eddi|zuHause> also, newgrfs may change this limit
01:11:51  <NoobCp> None loaded
01:11:52  <Yexo> oil refinery limit is ignored in the scenario editor
01:12:50  <Yexo> but only for manually placed industries
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01:54:10  <Cadde> ! Ugh !
01:54:27  <Cadde> Is there a way to change the NewGRF ordering on a already started game.
01:58:32  <welshdragon> single or multiplayer?
01:58:36  <Cadde> Single
01:58:40  <welshdragon> yes
01:59:23  <Cadde> I have tried moving the newgrf to the desired location and saved the game and re-loaded it.
01:59:55  <welshdragon> all newgrf's should be in the same place
02:00:15  <welshdragon> in windows it's My Documents/openttd/data
02:00:44  <Cadde> Ok, how does that help me changing the ordering on a already started game?
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02:01:01  <welshdragon> spanner -> Newgrf Settings
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02:01:54  <Cadde> <Cadde> I have tried moving the newgrf to the desired location and saved the game and re-loaded it.
02:01:54  <welshdragon> to add a grf hit add
02:02:15  <welshdragon> right
02:02:25  <welshdragon> is there a ! next to it?
02:02:54  <Cadde> I want the load order of the grfs to change so Bigger Train depot takes priority over TTRS
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02:03:48  <welshdragon> select Bigger Train Depot
02:04:14  <welshdragon> and theb click move up/down in the GRF Settings window
02:05:34  <Cadde> It doesn't apply.
02:06:06  <Cadde> I mean, the order is changed when i move the grf up and down and save the game and restart ottd but the actual effect is none.
02:07:46  <Cadde> Is it because the sprite is saved in the savegame so that it cannot be replaced by altering the grf order or did i do something wrong.
02:07:57  <Cadde> Altering the order and starting a new game has effect.
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02:13:14  <welshdragon> that's just it
02:13:20  <welshdragon> you won't see the changes
02:13:31  <welshdragon> unless there was a conflict
02:14:41  <Cadde> So basically, no. Not without having a savegame editor that can slap the savegame into shape and even then it's questionable.
02:18:09  <glx> where did you change them ? running game or main menu ?
02:18:44  <Cadde> Running game.
02:19:33  <Cadde> All that's wrong is the sprite used for train depots.
02:20:20  <Cadde> It's not game breaking in any way but it saddens me to realize after spending 4 hours slowly making money that i cannot make my stations look as good as i wanted them to.
02:22:24  <Cadde> Actually, come to think of it. I believe it's the original OpenGFX version of the depot that is showing. Thus the ordering of the grf doesn't matter. But for some reason it wasn't applied when i started the game and i only noticed just now.
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03:02:12  <Cadde> Hmm. Why are my buses paying the passengers to travel 6 squares?
03:04:22  <Cadde> This is what's happening. I have 3 stations set up in a T layout, there are 2 trains going from each and every one of them and then i have a 4th station with 2 trains going to the 3rd station.
03:04:56  <Cadde> Naturally cargodist wants to send passengers from stations 1, 2 and 3 to station 4 and the bus station that is linked up with buses.
03:05:35  <Cadde> But when my buses going from station 4 to that bus station arrives and unloads i am PAYING money to unload the passengers. What is going on here?
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03:11:51  <Cadde> Oh, and my balance is going up even though it sais COST and the profit of the bus shows as negative.
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03:29:07  <Cadde> Figured it out, it's that leg profit dealio
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07:21:02  <dihedral> \o/
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07:30:59  <terinjokes> dihedral: /O\
07:31:33  <dihedral> hi... erm... do i know you? :-P
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07:41:30  <TrueBrain> you already forgot about last night?
07:46:35  <planetmaker> :-D
07:46:50  <planetmaker> easy come, easy go, you know? ;-)
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07:57:17  <dihedral> TrueBrain: i would NEVER forget YOU :-P
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08:02:19  <planetmaker> eeew...
08:02:31  <planetmaker> please spare us the details ;-)
08:03:31  <dihedral> ^^
08:03:34  <dihedral> he asked for it!
08:11:23  <welshdragon> no you
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08:23:04  <Mazur> Morning, all.
08:24:00  <KloBass> good mourning
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08:57:27  <lennard> ping TrueBrain (or Rubidium, I think?)
08:58:11  <lennard> the mirror will go offline for a few hours starting tomorrow evening, 17:00 dutch time
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09:12:08  <KloBass> one question how to open cheat menu in linux? ctrl+alt+c and ctrl+alt+c+win does not work :(
09:14:53  <welshdragon> it should
09:15:09  <welshdragon> meta+alt+c?
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09:15:57  <Darkvater> a bit late...
09:16:05  <Darkvater> but congratulations with 1.0.0!!!!
09:20:27  <dihedral> \o/ Darkvater
09:20:39  <dihedral> why do i always have to think of dilbert when i see Darkvater??
09:21:15  <Darkvater> hihi, my dear, dear avatar :D
09:23:15  <Darkvater> how is everyone doing?
09:23:41  <dihedral> <- is doing ok
09:23:53  <dihedral> <- is looking for some good hosting provider!
09:24:11  <Darkvater> ^ likes to use <-
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09:26:36  <dihedral> how are you btw?
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09:27:22  <dihedral> i don't want to fork out 50 EUR / Month for my own root server
09:27:42  <dihedral> and i hate the limites some hosters impose with virtuozo
09:27:46  <dihedral> grrr
09:28:42  <Rubidium> then what do you want?
09:28:50  <peter1138> they're called "root" servers now?
09:29:01  <dihedral> yeah :-(
09:29:07  <dihedral> root server or dedicated server ^^
09:29:19  <lennard> doh
09:29:23  <Rubidium> hi Darkvater, you're the second of the "old devs" to show up. Although, Bjarni joining and leaving immediately counts as "showing up"
09:29:29  <Darkvater> dihedral: doing ok. will have to look for a new job in the next few months
09:29:35  <lennard> if you want cheap, you go to a cheap virtual machine hoster in us or de
09:29:38  <Darkvater> Rubidium: *giggle* bjarni
09:29:42  <lennard> if you want dedicated, you cant get cheap :P
09:29:44  <dihedral> Darkvater: you are in the UK right?
09:29:52  <Darkvater> I am?
09:29:57  <dihedral> i thought you were :-P
09:29:57  <Darkvater> lemme check
09:30:10  <Darkvater> nop
09:30:12  <Noldo> cheapest in finland seem to be around 24 e/kk
09:30:14  <dihedral> pitty
09:30:19  <dihedral> else i would have known a company :-D
09:30:28  <Darkvater> although it sounds nice. I'm not too attached to NL
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09:30:44  <dihedral> perhaps you might like
09:30:46  <Rubidium> Darkvater: "United Kingdom of the Netherlands"
09:30:53  <dihedral> :-D
09:30:58  <paul> hi everyone
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09:31:10  <Guest2553> -.-
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09:31:17  <dihedral> two little dickybirds sitting on a wall......
09:31:31  <dihedral> one named peter ond named.... ?
09:31:32  <dihedral> :-D
09:31:53  <paul_> :)
09:32:01  <paul_> i wouldnt know :p
09:32:07  <Darkvater> dihedral: don't see any job pages
09:33:10  <Darkvater> meh, bbs
09:34:15  <Rubidium> Darkvater: yeah, sadly enough we find surprises from Bjarni every few weeks :(
09:35:20  <paul_> maybe you guys can point me into the right direction :)
09:35:38  <__ln__> the whole effort Bjarni has put into OTTD has been an evil, secret plot to plant surprises for Rubidium.
09:36:33  <paul_> i am trying to setup an openttd server ... with some NewGRF ... but everytime a client connects and trys to download the newGRF content it stalls
09:36:48  <paul_> erm ... the newGRF download stalls
09:36:53  <__ln__> hello sir Darkvater
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09:38:37  <dihedral> Darkvater:
09:39:30  <dihedral> it's a nifty product, and they have some money-pooping investers (at least that was the looks like 4 years ago) :P
09:41:52  <Darkvater> Rubidium, __ln__ : the whole of bjarni was a disaster. I always knew Apple-fans were evil. this is proof!
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09:42:11  <Darkvater> dihedral: I'm blind...
09:43:03  <dihedral> yarp
09:43:20  <Darkvater> dihedral: sounds.... interesting. but I'm not really into databases and just trying to quit programming
09:43:37  <Darkvater> it's nice, but 40h/w is taking away all the fun
09:44:42  <Rubidium> Darkvater: yeah, such gems as CVE-2009-4007
09:45:37  <peter1138> pfft
09:45:46  <Darkvater> Unspecified vulnerability in the NormaliseTrainConsist function in src/train_cmd.cpp in OpenTTD before 0.7.5-RC1 allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service (daemon crash) via certain game actions involving a wagon and a dual-headed engine.
09:46:01  <Darkvater> bjarni, the bane of all developers!
09:46:17  <peter1138> but nobody else spotted it either
09:46:52  <dihedral> Darkvater: was just an idea - i still have personal contacts to them ^^
09:47:21  <Darkvater> :)
09:47:49  <__ln__> peter1138: because Bjarni covered it up so well
09:48:23  <Darkvater> lol
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10:02:32  <__ln__> hmm, all air traffic in Britain, Norway and Denmark stopped
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10:05:35  <Darkvater> \o/ iceland
10:06:57  <Forked> I'm thinking Iceland should be held responsible and pay for what is lost
10:07:03  <Forked> seeing how they are already swimming in money :)
10:07:28  <__ln__> Forked: would you accept fish as payment?
10:07:37  <Forked> if the people there are to be blamed and pay for the mess a few people made.. why not being made to pay for what mother nature does as well
10:09:03  <Forked> __ln__: pretty sure we have enough fish here in .no :)
10:09:25  <__ln__> Forked: too bad since fish is all they have atm
10:09:47  <Eddi|zuHause> they have geothermal energy!
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10:10:52  <dihedral> just hope they dont throw all the fish into the vulcano and send you the ashes that way :-P
10:11:00  <dihedral> might be a smelly thing :-P
10:11:06  <dihedral> fishy ashes :-P
10:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ashes don't smell...
10:12:21  <paul_> please can someone enlighten me ... i am trying to setup an openttd server ... but the clients cant download the newGRF content ... any ideas?
10:12:31  <fjb> Moin
10:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the client's don't download the newgrf content from you, they download from the centralized download server
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10:14:01  <dihedral> paul_: newgrf content is not downloaded from your sever!
10:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and anything that's not uploaded there, can't be downloaded
10:14:21  <dihedral> newgrf's must be those from the content server, if you want them to be able to download them automatically
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10:15:19  <paul_> hmm i got them myself through the ingame content downloader ... so they should on the content server
10:15:38  <paul_> the content download server is the bananas list?
10:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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10:17:31  <dihedral> other option is that they are just trying to connect to your server, without trying to get the newgrfs first
10:18:22  <paul_> i got server up ... and i am trying to connect myself
10:18:34  <paul_> (from a second computer)
10:18:56  <paul_> i find the server an click on NewGRF Settings
10:19:43  <paul_> it lists me the used NewGRF ... the i go on Find missing content online
10:20:09  <paul_> select all ... download
10:20:40  <paul_> i get the download window ... 0B of 1.22 MiB downloaded ... and nothing more happens
10:20:44  <paul_> it stalls at 0
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10:24:17  <paul_> the ip is port 3979 .. which is the default .. if anyone wants to try
10:24:33  <dihedral> paul_: which version?
10:24:47  <paul_> openttd version?
10:24:56  <dihedral> yes!
10:25:00  <paul_> 1.0.0
10:25:18  <dihedral> how long did you wait for the download to start?
10:25:37  <paul_> hmm still waiting
10:26:06  <amalloy> can someone help me with a general infrastructure question? i've looked at several of the junctions on the wiki, and i have a reasonable grasp of how to build junctions; but it seems like overkill to build a huge junction for each station i want to put next to the mainline. what's a more lightweight way to let trains in and out of a station?
10:26:07  <peter1138> well content download comes from the central servers, not your own
10:26:25  <Rubidium> it works for me (tm)
10:26:46  <dihedral> ^^
10:26:56  <Rubidium> paul_: what does redirect you to?
10:27:38  <paul_> Rubidium: to
10:28:32  <Rubidium> paul_: sounds like a firewall is disallowing OpenTTD to connect to that server
10:29:51  <paul_> well i am behind a nat router ... never hat problems with that ... i can download newGRF content if i connect to other servers ... actually let me check that (worked yesterday)
10:29:55  <plantain> hmm, are the tar files in .openttd/content_download/ meant to be extracted by openttd?
10:30:21  <plantain> I've download a whole lot of AI's and maps, but they all fail to execute with "dbg: [misc] [squirrel] Failed to compile '/home/plantain/.openttd/content_download/ai/NoCAB-2.0.4.tar/nocab-2.0.4/main.nut'
10:30:46  <Hirundo> amalloy: Generally, simple splits and combinations thereof suffice 90% of the time
10:30:48  <plantain> or alternatively "dbg: [ai] [1] [S] Error /home/plantain/.openttd/content_download/ai/library/Pathfinder.Road-3.tar/pathfinder.road.3/main.nut:257/43: expected ')'
10:31:08  <Rubidium> plantain:
10:31:20  <Rubidium> i.e. you're zlib is "broken"
10:31:31  <Rubidium> s/you're/your/
10:31:44  <paul_> Rubidium: ahh ok doesnt work anymore either ... ok now i got something i can work with :)
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10:44:58  <peter1138> is there any upstream report on that issue?
10:45:32  <planetmaker> smatZ wanted to look into it and report it upstream if he comes to the conclusion that it is a real zlib issue
10:45:47  <planetmaker> he advised me against reporting it already
10:45:53  <peter1138> reporting eof when it's not eof seems fairly blatantly a problem
10:46:09  <planetmaker> dunno if he did already. Maybe he did :-)
10:46:31  <Rubidium> don't know; you need to be member of their mailing list before checking the logs and it's unclear whether there's a bug tracker and if so, where it is
10:46:59  <planetmaker> well, it's possible to 'just' e-mail them. They're usually responsive.
10:53:39  <paul_> Rubidium: thx for the help ... i downloaded the newGRF on that client manually and it works
10:53:49  <paul_> the client btw is a mac os x too ...
10:54:28  <paul_> but i have no idea why the ingame content downloader doesnt work anymore ...
10:55:55  <planetmaker> paul_, because of your zlib then most probably
10:56:19  <planetmaker> you updated zlib via macports, got version 1.2.4 - and that breaks current trunk
10:56:48  <planetmaker> either you use the patch as attached to FS#3753 or you downgrade your zlib
10:57:51  <paul_> hmm but i didnt change anything (no new compiles or updates) since it worked
10:59:08  <paul_> uhhh wait i compiled it without liblzo2
11:00:53  <planetmaker> that doesn't matter
11:02:32  <planetmaker> zlib != liblzo2
11:02:58  <amalloy> how can i tell how expensive something will be before i do it? i tried placing some electric rail and blew through my whole initial loan in like ten seconds
11:03:09  <planetmaker> amalloy, try shit+action
11:03:52  <amalloy> thanks
11:05:33  <paul_> planetmaker: hm the zlib i have installed is 1.2.3
11:06:29  <planetmaker> which of the 10 different 1.2.3?
11:12:06  <paul_> hmm how can i tell?
11:13:30  <Rubidium> that's the nice part... you usually can't
11:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause> by staring at it until it loses its contenance, then it splurts out all the answers
11:13:45  <planetmaker> Rubidium, macports allows to display the exact version
11:13:53  <planetmaker> And even switch in between with a one-line command
11:14:02  <planetmaker> but I don't recall the exact command
11:15:05  <planetmaker> provided that all those versions have been ported, of course.
11:15:42  <paul_> hmm the header is of no use? e.g. zlib.h
11:15:54  <planetmaker> something maybe like port search zlib
11:16:06  <planetmaker> or port list zlib
11:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> all commands are one line :p
11:16:24  <planetmaker> or port active zlib
11:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (provided they stay below 32k ;))
11:16:43  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that depends upon the shell, I'd say ;-)
11:17:43  <Eddi|zuHause> likely ;)
11:17:57  <paul_> hmm something like fink list zlib ?ß
11:18:06  <paul_> hmm something like "fink list zlib"?
11:18:07  <planetmaker> fink != macports :-)
11:18:12  <planetmaker> I dunno about fink
11:18:32  <paul_> yes .. but i dont have no command named "port"
11:18:34  <ashb> fink and macports both have fail
11:18:38  <ashb> use homebrew
11:18:50  <paul_> so i guess i dont have macport
11:19:25  <Darkvater> did celestar ever return?
11:19:46  <planetmaker> ever: yes. Recently: no
11:19:54  <Darkvater> hehe
11:20:08  <planetmaker> @seen Celestar
11:20:08  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Celestar> work cals
11:20:11  *** owenshep [] has joined #openttd
11:20:22  <planetmaker> more recent than I thought ;-)
11:20:24  *** owenshep is now known as OwenS
11:20:25  <Darkvater> @seen Darkvater
11:20:25  <DorpsGek> Darkvater: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 30 seconds ago: <Darkvater> hehe
11:20:35  <Darkvater> eh, not what I was expecting
11:20:43  <planetmaker> :-)
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11:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of bjarni:
11:31:30  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:32:21  <peter1138> @seen bjarni
11:32:21  <DorpsGek> peter1138: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 7 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Bjarni> <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
11:32:40  <peter1138> ah, typical bjarni, just posting links
11:35:04  <OwenS> The amount of times people have asked when Bjarni was last seen is... silly
11:35:23  <peter1138> @seen tron
11:35:23  <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen tron.
11:35:33  <peter1138> @seen hackykid
11:35:33  <DorpsGek> peter1138: hackykid was last seen in #openttd 6 weeks, 1 day, 2 hours, 15 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Hackykid> hi peter1138
11:35:39  <peter1138> heh
11:37:59  <Darkvater> he, tron
11:38:03  <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
11:46:45  <Rubidium> OwenS: that happens with all those mac fanboys that are sad there isn't an official Mac OS X port anymore
11:47:02  <dihedral> they can install linux on their mac
11:47:11  * dihedral hides
11:47:59  <Rubidium> but Linux isn't all point'n'drool
11:48:46  <dihedral> can be
11:49:16  <dihedral> depends what makes you drool
11:49:32  <ashb> dihedral: the main argument against X11 on a mac is same argument against cygwin: it doesn't fit in with the rest of the OS
11:50:05  <OwenS> ashb, who said X11? He said Linux
11:50:11  <dihedral> i was not talking about installing x11 in os x ^^
11:50:19  <ashb> oh dual boot. good point
11:50:25  <OwenS> Nah, single boot
11:50:26  <dihedral> i was not talking about dual boot
11:50:39  <Noldo> ditch the mac!
11:50:40  <ashb> well if you are going to install linux may as well install windows as well for playing other games too ^__^
11:50:45  <peter1138> dihedral was talking about replacing a shitty OS with a slightly better OS
11:50:48  <dihedral> hehe - OwenS seems to understand me very well
11:51:04  * Rubidium loves dualboot... memtest and linux
11:51:10  <dihedral> :-D
11:51:19  <peter1138> :)
11:51:21  <OwenS> Rubidium, whats the boot ratio between them?
11:51:31  <dihedral> peter1138: you consider windows as good as you like - it suits users ^^
11:51:42  <Rubidium> 0 to lots
11:51:45  <peter1138> i what?
11:51:47  <dihedral> :-P
11:52:03  <peter1138> no, i mean i don't understand what you're trying to say
11:52:34  <dihedral> i was calling you a 'user'
11:52:44  <Rubidium> ihop?
11:52:58  <Rubidium> that is owned by apple, right?
11:53:13  <dihedral> yeah
11:53:14  <peter1138> dihedral, "you consider windows as good as you like"? what do you mean there?
11:53:35  <dihedral> feel free to consider windows as good an os as you like??
11:54:05  <dihedral> enjoy the 'safty' of windows?
11:54:10  <peter1138> why me?
11:54:18  <Rubidium> I think the point peter1138 is trying to make is that he didn't mean Windows as "a slightly better OS"
11:54:24  <dihedral> 13:50 <@peter1138> dihedral was talking about replacing a shitty OS with a  slightly better OSB[B[B
11:55:44  <peter1138> i.e. OS X with Linux
11:55:56  <planetmaker> <ashb> dihedral: the main argument against X11 on a mac is same argument against cygwin: it doesn't fit in with the rest of the OS <-- the main argument against SDL on mac is that it's somewhat severely broken. Not that it doesn't blend
11:56:42  <ashb> if you say so - only used it very breifly
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11:57:07  <planetmaker> ashb, I wrote the bug report. I tested it
11:57:15  <planetmaker> not briefly actually
11:57:26  <planetmaker> just to prove the point, though ;-)
11:57:31  <ashb> SDL on mac is broken, or SDL+OTDD on mac is broken?
11:57:40  <planetmaker> the latter
11:57:53  <ashb> that doesn't say anything about SDL then
11:58:00  <ashb> or OSX
11:58:28  <planetmaker> well. I've been using X11 for other things on OSX. That works quite well.
11:58:51  <planetmaker> But I wouldn't call it flawless ;-)
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12:00:58  <peter1138> what was up with SDL+OTTD on OS X?
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12:02:40  <planetmaker> peter1138, look at flyspray...
12:02:46  <peter1138> cba
12:02:51  * planetmaker neither
12:03:00  <peter1138> :)
12:03:12  *** NoobCp [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:04:56  <planetmaker> but graphics were as funny as the test blitter.
12:05:24  <planetmaker> and a number of additional issues
12:07:55  *** Guest2568 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the debug blitter is cool ;)
12:24:37  *** aber [] has joined #openttd
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12:26:11  <Pulec>
12:26:25  <Pulec> or
12:26:25  <Pulec>
12:28:02  <planetmaker> and why should we click those links?
12:28:23  <planetmaker> any specially crafted trojans and keyloggers out there? Or just viagra?
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12:29:05  <Jolteon> Avast is currently screaming RED ALERT FFFFFUUUCCCKKKK.
12:29:13  <Jolteon> But it terminated the connection, so nothing bad happened :>
12:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you clicked a link in IRC... how can that be any less than a RED ALERT!!?
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12:32:18  <Jolteon> eddi: usually it's just trojan warnings and a block of things that page linked to.
12:32:21  <Jolteon> not a full page block.
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12:46:05  <Cadde> Ammler: I would be forever grateful if you could compile a preset for me. (
12:48:41  <Ammler> Cadde: he, I can add, but you can also combine the grfs, for example use the existing presets grf and change up to 8 costs with the mod grf
12:48:59  <Cadde> 8 isn't enough :D
12:49:05  <Cadde> Thats why i ask
12:49:40  <Cadde> Not even with luuk's hard preset if i get the ods file right
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12:50:39  <Ammler> and the default (mine)?
12:51:11  <Cadde> For starters i need to use at least 6 for running cost modification
12:51:24  <Cadde> Because i wanna play with daylength patch and it doesn't do running costs
12:51:51  <Ammler> well, it is easy to add it, you prepared it quite good...
12:52:01  <Cadde> I try my best ;)
12:52:12  <Ammler> I might do it tonight sometime...
12:52:24  <Cadde> Ok, whenever you have the spare time.
12:52:40  <Cadde> Thanks!
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12:58:46  <TrueBrain> tnx lennard, will keep it in mind
12:59:29  <lennard> ah, good, response, now I get to not bother about it anymore :P
12:59:55  <TrueBrain> response within 4 hours, not bad, if I say so myself :)
13:00:58  <glx> could be slower ;)
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13:04:03  <lennard> TrueBrain: correct, especially via such a medium as IRC :P
13:04:21  <lennard> all non-official and volatile and stuff :P
13:06:22  <Cadde> My IRC beeps at me everytime someone say something.
13:06:56  <Cadde> I just need another monitor as well. 2 isn't enough anymore.
13:07:34  <TrueBrain> lennard: for that we have highlights ;)
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13:25:47  <Belugas> hello
13:28:50  <glx> <TrueBrain> lennard: for that we have highlights ;) or PMs
13:29:02  <glx> hmm I forgot the <-- ;)
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13:40:50  <dihedral> hehe - TrueBrain has highlights :-P
13:41:31  <TrueBrain> @kick dihedral and access to the bot
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13:41:43  <TrueBrain> hihi :)
13:41:55  <dihedral> hehe
13:42:06  <dihedral> oh how i missed those times :-D
14:00:55  * SmatZ resists the urge ;)
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14:02:22  <dihedral> thank you !
14:03:58  <SmatZ> ::))
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14:22:43  <OwenS> projects/generate makes for huge diffs
14:23:08  <peter1138> yeah, but it's automated, so it's nothing you need to read :)
14:23:50  <OwenS> It doubled the size of the patch? Thats insane! :p
14:24:31  <OwenS> Also, looking at it, it seems to have mutilated some lines: +					AdditionalDependencies="..\src\langnglish.txt;..\objs\strgen\strgen.exe"
14:28:29  <Rubidium> looks like your awk doesn't understand whatever we try to do
14:29:02  <Rubidium> what OS are you one? What awk are you using?
14:29:25  <OwenS> OpenSolaris, GNU awk
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14:31:06  <Rubidium> hmm, looks more like bash is doing something strange
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14:31:33  <Rubidium> maybe you're using some old bash (or not bash for that matter)
14:31:43  <OwenS> GNU bash
14:32:29  <OwenS> find reported an argument deprecation warning...
14:33:02  <Rubidium> bash --version ?
14:33:20  <OwenS> GNU bash, version 4.0.28(1)-release (i386-pc-solaris2.11) // (C) 2009 FSF
14:33:32  <Rubidium> hmm, that sounds relatively recent
14:33:57  <peter1138> many changes needed for slowlaris?
14:34:08  <OwenS> Compiles fine with G++. And not slow ;-)
14:34:25  <OwenS> GNU Awk 3.1.5 (C) 1991-2005 is possibly the culprit
14:35:22  <Rubidium> OwenS: problem is that the part where it goes wrong doesn't use awk
14:35:29  <OwenS> Heh
14:36:02  <OwenS> Probably the FSF decided that bash should emulate unix bash, rather than behaving like it does elsewhere.
14:36:14  <peter1138> awk: not an option: --version
14:36:15  <peter1138> hurr
14:36:21  <Rubidium> peter1138: -W version
14:36:34  <peter1138> mawk 1.3.3 Nov 1996, Copyright (C) Michael D. Brennan
14:36:37  <OwenS> GAS is the same, which defies the point: If I wanted Solaris AS behaviour, I would use /usr/bin/as!
14:36:40  <peter1138> .............
14:36:44  <peter1138> 9....6....
14:36:45  <Rubidium> OwenS: it's just odd that \b ends up being \"beep"
14:36:54  <OwenS> Indeed
14:37:00  <OwenS> peter1138, what platform?
14:37:06  <peter1138> debian lenny :D
14:37:19  <OwenS> Solaris' /usr/bin/awk doesn't even take -W version
14:37:35  <Rubidium> because mawk != gawk
14:38:08  * OwenS wonders why /usr/xpg4/bin doesn't precede /usr/bin in PATH
14:38:58  <peter1138> 50KB for road types patch so far :s
14:39:00  <peter1138> (and it doesn't work)
14:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
14:40:01  <OwenS> ProgSigs is 165k without projects, 325k with
14:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still of the opinion that roads need more than just "roadtypes"
14:40:22  <Rubidium> that's because solaris is doing the wrong thing (tm)
14:40:24  <peter1138> projects shouldn't be that big. but your tools are fucking it up :)
14:40:49  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, have you documented your proposals?
14:41:15  <Eddi|zuHause> .. all over the place :p
14:41:26  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, have you coherently documented your proposals?
14:41:26  <Rubidium> peter1138: ofcourse in "/dev/null" or ""
14:41:31  <peter1138> *nod*
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14:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> ... anyway, it's basically SimCity 4-style "puzzle tiles" with newgrf-airport-style state machines for vehicle movement
14:43:54  <Ammler> Cadde: <-- I do bananas it later tonight.
14:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> "problem" is that it's nontrivial to extend the airport state machines for articulated vehicles
14:44:22  <Cadde> And the parameter?
14:44:38  <Cadde> Ammler: ^
14:44:39  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, isn't the term there "puzzle pieces"?
14:44:49  <Ammler> Cadde: yep, with parameter
14:44:59  <Ammler> 4 if you read desc
14:45:01  <OwenS> [
14:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: no, because the map consists of tiles, not of pieces
14:45:50  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, it does in SimCity 4 too. They're called Puzzle Pieces because of how the engine works with them ;-)
14:45:52  <Cadde> Ammler: Ah ok, im not used to people actally putting the parameters in their grf's... Usually it leads to me browing an entire thread jsut to find out if there is one at all.
14:46:17  <Cadde> Keep up the good work :) And thanks again!
14:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: even then, i'm german and it's "Puzzleteile" in german
14:47:01  <OwenS> It starts with a number of networks at square edges, then picks the correct piece to suit the puzzle ;-)
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14:47:35  <Ammler> Cadde: that is because you needed to define parameters before you load the grf some years ago ;-)
14:48:11  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i wonder if they'll freak out in the store if i bring back the stuff every half year...
14:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i brought back my mouse/keyboard yesterday, because of broken mouse wheel, and they switched it with a brand new one (including batteries)
14:52:35  <Cadde> OwenS: You don't have to worry about the projects IMO, but it might be helpful to others to describe in your OP that the files created by the patch needs to be included in the openttd project for vs
14:53:18  <OwenS> Cadde, it will be painless enough when my HDD arrives and my Linux box is operational again
14:53:19  <Cadde> Also, since i love your patch so much i can make SVN diffs out of it for you and even provide the binaries.
14:53:55  <OwenS> Are SVN diffs that essential? Though feel free to provide them
14:54:07  * Cadde is extremely happy now that i supposedly shouldn't have to be careful when removing tracks with progsig on them btw.
14:54:20  <OwenS> Hehe
14:54:26  <Cadde> Well, i banged my head a long time to get it to apply to trunk.
14:56:05  <Cadde> And it's also quite painful to merge with other patches that conflict when using patch.exe as you have to manually edit instead of using the awesome tortoise merge
14:57:15  <OwenS> One option I could propose is to clone the Git repository ;-)
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14:58:34  <Cadde> Mrrr. I got it to work so im not going to mess it up. I am just going to do svn update rxxxx and then create the diff and then use the diff to apply it to chill's pack.
14:58:53  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: svn diffs are not essential, screw the people with broken "patch"
14:59:07  <Cadde> And then edit strings.h to string.h ...
14:59:18  <Cadde> I am still concerned over what that is all about
14:59:34  <OwenS> Cadde, for some reason its not looking in tables/ for includes
14:59:36  <JakeGrimshaw> hello all
14:59:55  <Cadde> Ah so it's supposed to take the one in tables/, good to know
15:01:05  <JakeGrimshaw> i don't suppose anyone with more knowledge than i have would know if it is possible to create a patch/action that would demolish all trees ?
15:01:26  <Cadde> JakeGrimshaw: Just turn trees off?
15:01:44  <Cadde> Unless you meant, demolish all trees in an already running game
15:01:53  <dihedral> JakeGrimshaw: it's possible
15:02:03  <dihedral> but you need it on client and server
15:02:11  *** zachanima [~zach@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:02:19  <OwenS> dihedral, not necessarily. Just issue lots of demolish commands
15:02:38  <JakeGrimshaw> i mean demolish all of the trees so i can replant them
15:02:48  <Cadde> "Killing the planet, one tree at a time"
15:03:06  <JakeGrimshaw> problems occur when adding AlpineClimate to a game, whereby the trees don't have snow on above the snowline unless you replant them all
15:03:09  <dihedral> OwenS: with an ai ^^
15:03:13  <OwenS> (Though issuing ~1024^2 commands would be insidious)
15:04:52  <Cadde> JakeGrimshaw: Then someone should make a patch that looks for trees that are above the snowline and re-plants them in scenario editor
15:05:08  <JakeGrimshaw>
15:05:14  <OwenS> Hmm, does Linux come with an implementation of Unix compress yet?
15:05:14  <JakeGrimshaw> ah yes i suppose
15:06:52  <JakeGrimshaw> is that possible Cadde
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15:16:00  <dihedral> perhaps it would be possible to do that with the grf?
15:16:09  <dihedral> i.e. take care of the trees
15:20:10  <planetmaker> Alpine Climate is anyway severely flawed
15:21:54  <JakeGrimshaw> is it a MB production ?
15:21:57  <JakeGrimshaw> AlpineClimate
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15:22:37  <peter1138> alpine climate is pre-cargo labels
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15:25:24  <JakeGrimshaw> would it be possible to update it to work with OpenGFX, or would it be easier to have a complete re-write
15:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> JakeGrimshaw: you need to replace the roof graphics
15:26:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or you need to change the opengfx houses to have the same shape as the original houses
15:27:05  <JakeGrimshaw> i see
15:27:52  <JakeGrimshaw> big job or.. ?
15:30:38  <Ammler> change opengfx might be easier :-)
15:31:30  <Ammler> for example with a grf, which does replace the houses with ttd sprites
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15:40:52  <JakeGrimshaw> i suppose so yes
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16:46:04  *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
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16:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ... ok this "greatest" guy is an annoying brat...
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17:11:41  <Terkhen> hello
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17:15:43  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: link?
17:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: german forum
17:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> he showed up at this thread with 1000 trains after like 1 in game year, and "honestly never cheating"
17:17:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and now he starts "demanding" that the vehicle limit be increased
17:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and he has a total penis-compensation avatar :p
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17:34:25  <Rubidium> so, he's the greatest dick of that forum?
17:38:43  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: I bet, no save?
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17:40:06  * fjb doesn't read the German forum any more.
17:40:18  <TT1a1a1> guys, how do i enable the tramways option?
17:40:53  <Yexo> use a newgrf with trams
17:40:55  <glx> use a tram grf
17:41:08  <Terkhen> TT1a1a1: download the generic tram set from the online content and enable it at the newgrf options
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17:45:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19639 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt luxembourgish.txt slovenian.txt):
17:45:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 2 changes by Phreeze
17:45:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by ntadej
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17:46:30  <TT1a1a1> thanks, got it enabled
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17:47:22  <TT1a1a1> could have been easier right enough
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17:59:48  <Ammler> <-- nice junction :-)
18:00:18  <Ammler> (from
18:02:46  <peter1138> hmm, still no level crossings in nutracks?
18:03:10  <peter1138> that's not a nice junction at all
18:03:13  <NoobCp> But is it effective ? ;D
18:03:15  <peter1138> it's bloody ugly in fact
18:04:03  <TT1a1a1> is it possible to get motorways\highways\freeways in openttd?
18:04:13  <ccfreak2k> More junction in the trunction.
18:04:27  <ccfreak2k> Roads don't have a speed limit.
18:04:51  <fjb> Big junction on flat land and few trains, as always...
18:05:08  <TT1a1a1> mmm, good point
18:05:18  <TT1a1a1> i was thinking more lanes of traffic and one way
18:05:27  <Ammler> peter1138: something of worst I have seen :-)
18:05:38  <NoobCp> You can make one way roads TT1a1a1
18:06:08  <TT1a1a1> how?
18:07:30  <NoobCp>
18:07:38  <TT1a1a1> yeah thanks
18:07:41  <TT1a1a1> just read it
18:07:54  <TT1a1a1> thought that icon was for signs
18:08:04  <TT1a1a1> amazing ive not clicked it for years
18:08:07  <TT1a1a1> my bad
18:09:10  <TT1a1a1> are there any of these grfs that are worthwhile adding?
18:09:36  * fjb wonders why so many people don't find the obvious features...
18:11:09  <TT1a1a1> the different websites are confusing
18:11:22  <TT1a1a1> the term newgrfs sounds like jargon and avoided
18:11:54  <TT1a1a1> why not plugin
18:12:45  <TT1a1a1> "how can i add trams?"... "get the tram plugin" instead of "download the generic tram set from the online content and enable it at the newgrf options"
18:13:09  <Yexo> then the next question would be "how to get the tram plugin?"
18:13:28  <Yexo> besides, there are multiple tram newgrfs
18:13:39  <Yexo> so "the tram plugin" would be confusing as well, it should be "a tram plugin"
18:14:03  <TT1a1a1> yip, you would say "get it at the plugins site" instead of landing on a wiki page to then be redirected to a forum post
18:14:07  <Ammler> TT1a1a1: the more you add the better ;-)
18:14:10  <Yexo> so the actualy answer to "how can I add trams?" would be "download the generic tram set from the online content and enable it at the plugin options window"
18:14:42  <Yexo> which is neither clearer nor shorten than the answer you got now
18:15:53  <TT1a1a1> an in game grf browser would probably be best
18:16:02  <Yexo> there is one
18:16:09  <Yexo> click "download online content" in the main menu
18:16:11  <TT1a1a1> ah
18:16:47  <TT1a1a1> lol
18:17:14  <TT1a1a1> ok scrub all of that, the issue is that players that played the original didnt bother to look at the new features
18:18:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a big overgeneralization...
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18:37:41  <andythenorth> wouldn't it be nice if the default for transfer orders was 'transfer and no loading'
18:37:43  <andythenorth> ?
18:37:53  * andythenorth goes to feed the ponies
18:39:17  <Jolteon> andythenorth: yes.
18:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, it would be very nice
18:48:01  <andythenorth> so would world peace
18:48:06  <andythenorth> is anyone coding world peace?
18:49:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think mister premature-nobel-peace-price has some plans concerning that
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19:02:11  <str00tz> im new to openttd, and was wondering, it seems like many ppl can buy endless amounts of cargo holders and fill the up, why am i not able to do this ? do you get more cargo for longer distances or something ?
19:02:42  <planetmaker> nope
19:02:53  <planetmaker> but you usually get more money when you do long distance hauls
19:03:00  <planetmaker> and it helps to use "full load" orders
19:03:50  <str00tz> so it waits in the station until its full?
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19:04:39  <planetmaker> yes
19:04:49  <str00tz> ok, ill try that . thanks :)
19:04:53  <planetmaker> yw
19:08:51  <str00tz> and does it matter how long a station is ?
19:10:13  <planetmaker> yes and no. It matters for loading speed. If the station is too short, it takes ages to fill the train
19:10:23  <planetmaker> otherwise: no influence.
19:10:30  <str00tz> ah, well that makes sense actually
19:10:31  <planetmaker> you could even load coal in a passenger terminal
19:11:45  <str00tz> for such a small game, it sure it alot to learn..hehe, ive yet to read up on the signaling.
19:12:26  <planetmaker> :-) One of the more intricate parts :-)
19:12:53  <str00tz> yeah, thats why i havent read up on it yet, seems like alot to learn, so until then, i have alot of stations and single tracks :)
19:13:10  <planetmaker> pretty boring, eh?
19:13:44  <str00tz> with single tracks ?
19:13:53  <planetmaker> with single tracks and no signals :-)
19:14:02  <str00tz> not yet, since im new, still learning :P
19:14:17  <str00tz> ill give it about a week before it gets old :P
19:14:56  <planetmaker> haha :-)
19:15:18  <planetmaker> <-- let me present you the games of the final stages of insanity ;-)
19:15:56  <str00tz> oh god
19:16:05  <str00tz> gimme 10-15 years :P
19:16:14  <planetmaker> one is sufficient ;-)
19:17:01  <str00tz> consdering it took me about a week to figure out you can copy both train/car and orders in 1 click, i`d say 10 years atleast :)
19:17:04  <KenjiE20> funnily enough the older ones have been at this for about 15yrs
19:17:28  <planetmaker> true enough ;-)
19:17:47  <planetmaker> and the younger ones don't even count that number of years :-P
19:17:55  <str00tz> ehe
19:18:05  <KenjiE20> >_> yea
19:18:33  <KenjiE20> you people and their facetubes
19:18:40  <KenjiE20> young*
19:18:44  <planetmaker> <-- one of my personal favourite games
19:19:08  <KenjiE20> wasn't that the weird rebuilt snowline one?
19:19:14  <planetmaker> nope.
19:19:21  <KenjiE20> or was that 133
19:19:31  <Ammler> don't like to save directly :-P
19:19:32  <planetmaker> it's a Japanese regional ICE / s-bahn scenario
19:19:35  <Ammler> link*
19:19:45  <planetmaker>
19:19:49  <planetmaker> better ^  ?
19:20:10  <KenjiE20> oh yea, I remember that one now
19:20:29  <KenjiE20> sea of mail
19:20:40  <planetmaker> yeah :-) My nice 'little' ICE terminal ;-)
19:20:55  <planetmaker> I played it a lot and I enjoyed that map even more :-)
19:21:36  <planetmaker> str00tz, but mind that those maps were not build by _one_ person but by many.
19:21:56  <planetmaker> I bet usually even more than show up in the participants list
19:22:11  <KenjiE20> well, yes
19:22:14  <planetmaker> building it along... takes ages.
19:22:29  <KenjiE20> since those would/should be usuals, not one show-ish people
19:22:57  <planetmaker> yep, probably. I'm waiting for auto-generated participants lists actually :-)
19:23:05  <planetmaker> should be feasible.
19:23:05  <KenjiE20> heh
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19:48:59  <OwenS> planetmaker, shouldn't that be possible from the logs?
19:49:26  <OwenS> Sum each user's purchases, discarding sales. If higher than a certain amount, class them as a participant
19:51:50  <OwenS> planetmaker, why 151-160 in particular?
19:52:05  <planetmaker> no reason
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20:05:36  <zodttd> Rubidium: Why did you pull OpenTTD for iPad? What rights did I infringe, and why didn't you contact me when I wrote to you before I submitted it to Apple?
20:05:52  <zodttd> Rubidium: It was a top 20 app in all of iPad games.
20:08:10  *** APTX_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09:01  <Yexo> zodttd: there was no license file in the package, and you it wasn't possible to the complete source (including your modifications) nor was there a written offer from you to give the complete source
20:09:03  <zodttd> Rubidium: I met each of your requirements you outlined. I made sure to include a splash screen with the GPL in it's entirity completely shown. I'm wondering if you even tried it for the iPad before pulling it. I still have a flood of emails from the iPhone version being requested.
20:09:09  <zodttd> Wha?!
20:09:13  <zodttd> Both are there
20:09:23  <Yexo> the ipa file didn't contain a license file
20:09:49  <zodttd> The IPA file is a binary
20:10:00  <zodttd> So I included it in the splash screen
20:10:07  <Yexo> so? that binary should be accompanied by the license
20:10:10  <zodttd> As I was told to do!
20:10:18  <zodttd> By Rubidium himself
20:10:40  <zodttd> I can't do that, so I said I would put it in a splash within the game, as that is allowed as well
20:10:57  <Yexo> is there a way to view that without loading the application on the ipad?
20:11:12  <Yexo> and where can I download the complete source?
20:11:28  <zodttd> Look at the description on iTunes, There's a link to my github
20:11:31  <zodttd> linking now
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20:11:52  <zodttd>
20:13:23  <zodttd> The license is included in the source there as well. I left it untouched as I was taking careful precautions to, quite frankly, not have backlash from the OpenTTD team after my iPhone app was pulled without reason after I met the pre-reqs I discussed with Rubidium
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20:14:35  <zodttd> Was any research done before pulling this app? I was here the whole time. Why wasnt *I* contacted first?
20:14:47  <zodttd> There is a contact on the iTunes website.
20:15:01  <zodttd> I realize it's not required, but it's definitely polite.
20:15:32  <Yexo> I don't know, I just downloaded your app via itunes
20:15:41  <zodttd> It was all there :-/
20:15:46  <PeterT> zodttd: Thanks for all your hard work porting it to the iPod Touch/iPhone/iPad devices :-)
20:16:26  <zodttd> PeterT: Appreciate it. I was trying to do better for the iPad, as it really was a very enjoyable platform to use it. Not to mention it works well on the Mac.
20:16:45  <PeterT> Yeap, the iPad has quite a big screen
20:16:51  <PeterT> Useful for OTTD I guess
20:17:07  <PeterT> How does your app scroll the map?
20:17:14  <Yexo> zodttd: is there any way to view the splashscreen without loading the app on an ipad?
20:17:19  <zodttd> left "click" scroll
20:17:26  <Yexo> is it encoded in the ipa for example?
20:17:36  <zodttd> Yexo: It's inside the IPA
20:17:43  <zodttd> But as text
20:17:57  <OwenS> presumably strings would find it?
20:17:57  <zodttd> encoded in the MainWindow.nib file
20:18:01  <zodttd> It would
20:18:10  <Yexo> ah, ok
20:18:33  <OwenS> Is there no way to have a LICENSE file inside the IPA? (Sorry, I have no clue how iPhoneOS app distribution works)
20:18:47  <zodttd> There is, but you should never see it as that's part of Apple's DRM
20:19:02  <zodttd> So I included it in the splash to be more upfront about it
20:19:24  <zodttd> I left it out of the IPA since the filesystem of the Apple device isnt to be seen
20:19:25  <PeterT> every app becomes .ipa
20:19:31  <PeterT> that's all you distribute, the .ipa
20:19:36  <zodttd> iTunes does
20:19:48  <zodttd> But the end user shouldnt see the IPA or the files inside it
20:20:02  <PeterT> zodttd: how is it implemented? does it come up with the license.txt when you open the app?
20:20:09  <zodttd> Yes
20:20:12  <Eoin> zodttd: but you can see the
20:20:14  <Eoin> m
20:20:23  <Eoin> specially if you jailbreak :P
20:20:34  <zodttd> Eoin: True, but that's typically used for warez reasons
20:21:09  <Jolteon> hax
20:21:33  <zodttd> OpenTTD for iPad was doing amazingly well. It was top 20 of all games.
20:21:39  <zodttd> After only a few hours
20:22:35  <Sacro> is it included in any dmg files?
20:22:42  <Sacro> or self extracting zips?
20:22:53  <zodttd> An IPA is a zip file pretty much
20:23:01  <planetmaker> dmg have it
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20:23:18  <OwenS> zodttd, putting it in the IPA should satisfy the requirements then, I would assume
20:23:30  <OwenS> (Readable on and off device)
20:23:31  <Prof_Frink> Wait wait wait. The iPad has IPA? *Now* it sounds interesting.
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20:23:43  <zodttd> OwenS: It would, but I was doing you a favor by placing it in the splash so end users can actually see it
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20:24:02  <OwenS> zodttd, I was actually implying the splash screen should stay too
20:24:08  <zodttd> ok
20:25:06  <zodttd> Thing is, I can't resubmit the app now
20:25:15  <zodttd> Apple pulled it
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20:25:48  <zodttd> Rubidium will have to contact Apple however he did before, to allow for it. Otherwise there will not be an OpenTTD on both the iPhone and iPad now
20:26:43  <zodttd> Checking if I can even send an update for the app now.
20:26:54  <planetmaker> zodttd, maybe it's about time you start to work WITH  the devs
20:27:04  <zodttd> I tried
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20:27:05  <planetmaker> submit your patches to flyspray
20:27:23  <planetmaker> don't call something 1.0.0 which isn't.
20:27:24  <zodttd> There's no intention of an Apple device based OpenTTD by the team I was told
20:27:25  <planetmaker> etc.
20:27:33  <zodttd> This is 1.0.0
20:27:42  <planetmaker> you made mods. It isn't.
20:27:53  <zodttd> I was told to do that by Rubidium
20:28:00  <zodttd> It was a reason for pulling the iPhone version
20:28:20  <zodttd> Infact one of the reasons for pulling the iPhone version was due to me not making many changes at all
20:28:26  <Yexo> zodttd: you didn't include the license file for opengfx/opensfx
20:28:34  <planetmaker> :-(
20:28:41  <zodttd> I included the licenses you provided
20:28:45  <Yexo> just include the complete tar as downloaded from bananas
20:28:54  <zodttd> Oh!
20:29:22  <planetmaker> you ripped all artists of their well-deserved credits? :-(
20:29:27  <zodttd> Misread. OpenGFX and OpenSFX I did mess up. I didn't realize they were on a different license.
20:29:27  <Yexo> that includes both a license file and a readme with information on where to find the source etc.
20:29:31  <zodttd> Oh please!
20:29:35  <Yexo> planetmaker: yes
20:29:39  <planetmaker> oh yes!
20:29:48  <zodttd> A license isn't credit btw
20:29:52  <zodttd> Its a right
20:29:57  <planetmaker> zodttd, it's the only thing those people worked for on it - for TWO years!
20:30:11  <zodttd> planetmaker: They worked on LICENSE.TXT for two years?
20:30:16  <zodttd> No, they worked on their art
20:30:20  <planetmaker> well, credits
20:30:55  <Yexo> zodttd: yes, and the list of people that worked on that art is included in readme.txt, which is also part of the bananas tar
20:31:10  <zodttd> Isn't that downloaded with Online Content ?
20:31:14  <Yexo> plus you need to link to the source for opengfx, which again is done in that tar
20:31:15  <Yexo> yes
20:31:19  <zodttd> So whats the problem?
20:31:24  <zodttd> They can download it via the app
20:31:51  <zodttd> If it just matters whats in the filesystem, and not whats displayed to the user (as otherwise we shouldnt care whats on the filsystem), why does this matter?
20:31:59  <Yexo> they can't, as openttd won't offer opengfx for download if you already have it
20:32:05  <zodttd> Delete it
20:32:28  <Yexo> it matters because this isn't in the filesystem at all
20:32:49  <zodttd> If you download the tar, it includes the license right?
20:32:55  <Yexo> yes
20:32:59  <zodttd> Then its in teh filesystem
20:33:01  <zodttd> the*
20:33:01  <Yexo> and also a readme.txt
20:33:04  <zodttd> Right
20:33:11  <Yexo> zodttd: no, you didn't include that tar in your ipa pacakge
20:33:13  <zodttd> Then they can read it the same way you read my IPA
20:33:22  <Yexo> you only included the .grf and .obg files
20:34:25  <zodttd> If you're so concerned by the filesystem, remove them from the filesystem
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20:34:37  <zodttd> So frustrated.
20:35:02  <Yexo> zodttd: it's so simple, just include the opengfx tar file instead of the .grf/.obg files
20:35:14  <zodttd> And I would
20:35:19  <Yexo> and the same for opensfx (which is really under a different filesystem)
20:35:32  <planetmaker> and license
20:35:45  <Yexo> ehm, I ment license, not filesystem
20:35:52  <zodttd> right
20:36:03  <zodttd> This could esily be remedied
20:36:15  <zodttd> I actually have the tar's for everything else
20:36:15  <Yexo> that's what I'm telling you the whole time
20:36:20  <zodttd> Right
20:38:01  <zodttd> But, I need Rubidium to give his blessings to basically stop Apple from pulling it and allow for an update. I wasn't contacted at all to know I did anything wrong. Same for iPhone after I updated, and Apple told me nothing. If Apple pulls it, I'm not sure if they'll allow it back on the AppStore by policy.
20:38:42  <planetmaker> zodttd, you could have contacted him beforehand
20:38:46  <zodttd> I did!
20:38:55  <zodttd> I got no response
20:40:39  <planetmaker> well... allow some more time :-)
20:40:44  <zodttd> And I've been idling here for days now. I could of easily been contacted as well with some common courtesy.
20:40:57  <Yexo> zodttd: did you base your version on the 1.0.0 version?
20:41:00  <zodttd> That's not really how it works, since I believed I was meeting all of his previous requirements.
20:41:01  <zodttd> Yes
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20:41:32  <planetmaker> zodttd, it is how it could work :-)
20:42:14  <zodttd> If the OpenTTD team had an issue with my port, I don't see why they went to straight to Apple to yank the port instead of having the courtesy to write me first and let me work it out. Going straight to ISP's is how Microsoft works.
20:42:24  <planetmaker> after all he knows openttd and its intricacies...
20:42:35  <zodttd> More the reason to contact me first.
20:42:43  <planetmaker> zodttd, experience with the previous iphone 1.0 release maybe?
20:43:06  <zodttd> I still don't know why it was pulled after I spoke with him.
20:43:16  <zodttd> I released the update, and a pull notice was sent afterwards.
20:43:20  <zodttd> No explaination.
20:43:28  <zodttd> I had to contact him, he didn't contact me.
20:43:31  <zodttd> Same sort.
20:44:06  <zodttd> When I spoke with him, I thought it was handled too, and the update would resolve things. Then a second pull notice came with no explaination.
20:45:08  <planetmaker> So you release official-seeming updates on a patched version without having any dev check what you call an official version? And you wonder?
20:45:21  <zodttd> I did check
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20:45:26  <planetmaker> _you_
20:45:33  <planetmaker> But no one else.
20:45:37  <zodttd> I never called it an official version
20:45:39  <zodttd> Huh?
20:45:53  <planetmaker> And it looks like the real thing, though no offiicial dev had his hands in it.
20:45:58  <planetmaker> But they will get the bug reports
20:46:01  <zodttd> No
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20:46:07  <planetmaker> zodttd, what is OpenTTD 1.0.0 then?
20:46:08  <Yexo> zodttd: you have, by calling your version 1.0.0
20:46:19  <planetmaker> Does it look different than an officially released binary?
20:46:21  <Yexo> zodttd: part of the problem is probably apple not forwarding the complains to you
20:46:25  <zodttd> Look at the author and support link on iTunes
20:46:31  <zodttd> No
20:46:34  <zodttd> I handled that too
20:46:50  <dihedral> oh - this looks interesting
20:46:52  <dihedral> hello pm
20:46:56  <planetmaker> hello dihedral :-)
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20:47:32  <planetmaker> zodttd, I don't mean evil. But I try to look at it from the other side :-)
20:47:37  <zodttd> I am
20:48:04  <zodttd> But I explained all this before to Rubidium himself and things sounded much better after that.
20:49:13  <planetmaker> after the first beta3 which you released as 1.0.0?
20:49:59  <planetmaker> which required some tricks being pulled out of the sleeve in order to avoid the real 1.0.0 accept that as a valid client?
20:51:00  <planetmaker> sorry, if I missed part of that movie, but that's the first (and last thing) I heard of an iphone / ipad port
20:51:06  <planetmaker> except that here and now
20:51:42  <planetmaker> also if I'd like to do a port, I'd submit all my modification as patches to the bug tracker
20:52:00  <planetmaker> well. I do. As far as my abilities go in that respect
20:52:55  <peter1138> heh, the changes are minor, with a few ifdefs
20:53:05  <peter1138> and then you gave up and just commented random bits out in places
20:53:20  <planetmaker> peter1138, my last submitted patches were also minor. Still it adds up.
20:54:05  <Rubidium> hi, now "my" side of the story: 1) you were on (irc) ignore (probably because of excessive reconnects), as such I did not see anything from you (no reply == whatever you tried to send is received)
20:54:57  <zodttd> Hi Rubidium. Listening.
20:54:58  <peter1138> not that Rubidium is the only dev. i never got any pms.
20:55:00  <Rubidium> 2) I don't own a Mac, nor have Windows nor have iTunes. The only "access" I have to itunes is via some "snapshots from itunes" page. This page only shows a name, not an email address so I can't contact you directly
20:55:21  <zodttd> There's a contact link on the iTunes page.
20:55:55  <zodttd>
20:56:08  <Rubidium> not on the "snapshot/screenshots from itunes" page I used
20:56:38  <zodttd> The official one is above. For reference. I can understand where you're coming from there though.
20:57:14  <Rubidium> 3) I have to ask someone to download the binary package for me so I can disect it. As I don't have any Apple hardware nor itunes I cannot run it.
20:58:20  <Rubidium> 4) I expect that if I send comments to Apple that they forward them to you
20:58:27  <zodttd> 4) They didnt :(
20:58:42  <Noldo> Apple <3
20:58:57  <KenjiE20> isn't this all moot what with the licencing updates anyway?
20:59:00  <zodttd> I had no clue why the iPhone version was pulled either. Now that I know I was on ignore here, it explains why you never responded too.
20:59:18  <Rubidium> 5) in the first email I sent to Apple I mentioned missing files; actually a lot of files needed for normal compilation are missing (makefiles etc). That is not my main problem. The main problem is that a file needed for compilation is missing.
20:59:24  <OwenS> Hmm... OpenTTD doesn't compy with the requirements for iPhone/iPad apps
20:59:33  <Rubidium> 5a) that file is missing in the ipad git repository too
20:59:37  <OwenS> Apple recently updated their terms to prohibit the interpretation of code
20:59:38  <zodttd> Rubidium: Not the case now. I have a project for XCode used
20:59:45  <KenjiE20> OwenS: my point
20:59:57  <zodttd> OwenS: It's not interpeted in their mind
21:00:04  <OwenS> zodttd, Squirrel isn't interpreted?
21:00:10  <zodttd> OwenS: It's more in reference to emulation
21:00:12  <OwenS> What about the code in NewGRFs?
21:00:21  <zodttd> That's parsed.
21:00:23  <OwenS> zodttd, no, they explicitly prohibit interpretation
21:00:35  <OwenS> parsing != running...
21:00:38  <zodttd> Either way, they approve it.
21:00:41  <Yexo> OwenS: care to post a link that that?
21:00:52  <zodttd> It interprets it into what bytecode?
21:00:55  <zodttd> ARM?
21:01:05  <planetmaker> newgrfs are already bytecode.
21:01:08  <zodttd> I dont think so. That's what they are concerned about.
21:01:13  <PeterT> Yexo: I can get one.
21:01:17  <OwenS> Yexo, I don't have a link to their TOS, but a person has quoted it as
21:01:19  <OwenS> “3.3.1 
 Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).”
21:01:27  <Rubidium> 6) licenses are missing and so are some readmes. I just heard you include the GPL license in the binary. I could not find it in the OpenTTD binary, seems it is in some other binary file (which is why I couldn't find it)
21:01:37  <Rubidium> 6a) OpenSFX's license isn't GPL and missing too
21:01:47  <PeterT> yeah, what OwenS
21:01:50  <PeterT> ..said
21:02:05  <zodttd> Rubidium: I included it in the binary as I thought thats what we agreed on since the filesystem and IPA is never to be downloaded by an end user in Apple's distribution process
21:02:13  <peter1138> personally i think it is easily solvable. include the license files, even if a normal user won't see them. include opengfx/opensfx in their original forms. include license information and links to original sources in the information on itunes. etc .etc .etc .
21:02:28  <zodttd> peter1138: Easily and gladly done.
21:02:30  <Rubidium> 6b) OpenSFX doesn't allow commercial distribution; don't know whether itunes can be considered commercial (I haven't made a ruling of this, but I wonder about it)
21:03:04  <zodttd> Rubidium: It's a free app download. Is it still commercial in your opinion?
21:03:21  <OwenS> zodttd, Rubidium's opinion is irrelevant.
21:03:22  <peter1138> itunes is commercial :)
21:03:27  <planetmaker> though I'd say "no", a lawer could probably come up with a "yes" ;-)
21:03:29  <Rubidium> 6c) GPL states "give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program", which I would read as including it in the binary is not enough
21:03:30  <zodttd> I respect his opinion though
21:03:38  <peter1138> OwenS, squirrel AIs can't use any apple APIs
21:03:54  <peter1138> they can only use openttd's calls
21:04:13  <OwenS> peter1138, hmm...
21:04:21  <OwenS> It would depend upon how you interpreted it
21:04:22  <zodttd> Rubidium: I had thought this wasn't an issue. But I can easily solve it by including it on the filesystem in addition to the splash.
21:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: isn't 6c) the reason why he made a splash screen, so users get to actually see it?
21:04:49  <zodttd> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly
21:04:53  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, "any" is the operative word here
21:04:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (of course i'm only interpreting here)
21:05:16  <OwenS> If I get the binary I must be able to see the license, even if I can't run the binary
21:05:52  <zodttd> OwenS: Right. I failed to think that through.
21:06:15  <Yexo> OwenS: actually you can if you view the MainWindow.nib file in a text editor (the file isn't pure text, but it's readable)
21:06:33  <Rubidium> 7) there are many minor things like misrepresenting the thing, e.g. "claiming" everything is copyrighted by "OpenTTD Team", the copyright year is 2005-2010 and such (those aren't reasons to pull it though)
21:07:27  <Rubidium> 8) the source repository is kinda messed up so I had a hard time figuring out what the differences w.r.t. the official sources are (also not a reason to pull it, just FYI)
21:07:44  <zodttd> Yexo: And within XCode in pure text
21:08:03  <zodttd> Rubidium: I placed the copyright there
21:08:31  <zodttd> Rubidium: Any recommendation to clean up the source repo and make it more clearly defined for you, I would gladly follow
21:08:39  <OwenS> Yexo, I wouldn't otherwise know to look in MainWindow.nib
21:09:16  <peter1138> what happened to network/core/config.h?
21:09:51  <Rubidium> zodttd: you could start by not moving around files in the source repository, but just copy them in your "install" script
21:10:05  <Rubidium> also ignore the compiled language files
21:10:09  <peter1138> +extern unsigned long VideoAddress[20][1024*768]; // cheating
21:10:11  <peter1138> yikes :p
21:10:20  <zodttd> Rubidium: I included those just to be as complete as possible
21:10:26  <zodttd> peter1138: Eep yeah! ;P
21:10:32  <OwenS> zodttd, why not just clone the OpenTTD git repository?
21:10:38  <peter1138> doesn't look like that's even used...
21:10:43  <peter1138> unless there's more ... missing
21:10:53  <zodttd> peter1138: It was there temp.
21:11:09  <peter1138> seems to be not that temporary ;p
21:11:11  <Rubidium> move the third party stuff out of the OpenTTD directory, i.e. a freetype and sdl directory in the root directory
21:11:37  <zodttd> Rubidium: Ok :)
21:12:03  <Rubidium> going to a tens of thousands of lines of diff isn't something I appreciate
21:12:24  <zodttd> Rubidium: Right.
21:12:25  <peter1138> weird. the diff i got was nothing like that
21:12:40  <Rubidium> peter1138: you didn't notice the sdl and freetype?
21:13:04  <zodttd> Hmm wait, freetype?
21:13:18  <peter1138> there's an SDL8bit directory, next to 1.0.0
21:13:25  <zodttd>
21:13:31  <Rubidium> peter1138:
21:13:44  <peter1138> ahhh
21:13:46  <zodttd> Oh! I see what you mean. Right
21:14:36  <peter1138> my diff doesn't include that... only a single "only in" like for the whole directory tree, heh
21:14:37  <OwenS> Yikes at that directory layout. I have to wonder why you didn't just clone the official repository...
21:15:11  <Rubidium> OwenS: the git repository doesn't include releases
21:15:14  <zodttd> Right
21:15:28  <Rubidium> primarily because we do some tricks that git and friends don't like on releases
21:15:44  <planetmaker> I guess the .../openttd/include dir is a result of using xcode which might have created it and moved things there.
21:15:49  <peter1138> hmm
21:15:52  <OwenS> OK, then use git svn...
21:16:05  <peter1138> why bother removing the existing build system at all?
21:16:31  <Rubidium> oh, didn't even see yet :)
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21:16:59  <zodttd> Rubidium: While we're both here. Is there any way this can be resolved? Apple is about to pull the app from AppStore. I think at that point it would bar me from resubmitting it unless you can write Apple whichever way was done before. I am sticking around here, so I will make sure the update is exactly the way it should be.
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21:17:49  <planetmaker> he... interesting lib dir.
21:17:58  <OwenS> Wait, we commit compiled libraries into source control now O_o?
21:18:04  <zodttd> Yeah, need to clean that out.
21:18:23  <peter1138> OwenS, have you ever checked out rigsofrods...?
21:18:30  <zodttd> OwenS: You can. :P
21:18:34  <dihedral> :-D
21:18:39  <planetmaker> :-)
21:18:41  <Rubidium> zodttd: there's probably a way to resolve it, but it requires quite some work
21:18:46  <OwenS> Generally considered... extremely bad practice? :p
21:19:03  <zodttd> Rubidium: On your part or mine?
21:19:15  * planetmaker guesses
21:19:24  <dihedral> both i'd assume :-P
21:19:32  <peter1138> OwenS, it includes a couple of hundred MB of debug and release libs for windows platforms...
21:19:42  <planetmaker> :-) @ dihedral
21:19:50  <peter1138> (thomas needs to get a clue, there)
21:20:04  <OwenS> peter1138, yikes. The closest i've seen to that is Ogre3D's win32 dependencies repository. Which is explicitly a Win32 binary dependencies repository
21:20:10  <zodttd> Rubidium: I will gladly put the work into it. It honestly doesn't sound that hard to accomplish. I just need the blessings of your team in order to get anywhere.
21:20:14  <PeterT> Interesting conversation...
21:20:57  <zodttd> Rubidium: Otherwise it's a very upward battle I'm fighting here to see this open source project ported to Apple devices. I'm not sure if there's bad blood between us, but I surely respect your team.
21:21:11  <peter1138> well.... "openttd 2.0.0" :p
21:21:36  <zodttd> peter1138: Apple will be gone in 6 years ;)
21:23:23  <Rubidium> zodttd: most on your part, unless you want the i<whatever> changes to be part of the official source repository (although even then most work is yours)
21:23:25  <zodttd> peter1138: In all seriousness though, I am receiving really nice feedback on the iPad version, and it was climbing up the charts to top 20 game on the iPad within hours. There's a huge demand for this port.
21:23:50  <zodttd> Rubidium: Would you publish to the AppStore if it went official?
21:24:02  <peter1138> "Here’s what’s new in v2.0.0 of OpenTTD:"tc
21:24:03  <peter1138> etc
21:24:18  <zodttd> ah
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21:24:23  <OwenS> zodttd, Rubidium doesn't have the prerequsite XCode ;-)
21:24:26  <Rubidium> zodttd: don't know
21:24:30  <zodttd> :(
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21:25:19  <Rubidium> I've got no clue of the rules related to putting stuff on there
21:25:19  <Yexo> zodttd: does that matter much? if the changes needed are part of the openttd repository the only thing you need to do for the next version is check if it still compiles and if so, upload it
21:25:41  <zodttd> If it compiles it reuqires  from everyone who wants to run it on the device
21:25:47  <zodttd>  to Apple for a dev license
21:26:03  <zodttd> Then you will have tons of people submitting it to the AppStore as their own as well
21:26:08  <Rubidium> even then, none of the developers has a Mac and as such no xcode (don't know whether it's required)
21:26:09  <zodttd> So imagine me times 1000
21:26:11  <planetmaker> and possibly checking for "does it compile" in between and submitting the appropriate patches in order to lift any failures to do so.
21:26:16  <zodttd> I have a Mac
21:26:26  <zodttd> And I'm trying my best to see it done.
21:26:28  <Rubidium> and I doubt that apple will accept stuff that is compiled by a cross-compiler (if we're able to build one)
21:26:44  <zodttd> XCode is based ont he GNU Toolchain
21:26:47  <OwenS> Wow... macho-arm-llvm-gcc
21:26:56  <zodttd> DOnt use LLVM
21:27:00  <zodttd> Use GCC 4.2
21:27:01  <OwenS> XCode uses clang
21:27:15  <planetmaker> OwenS, wrong
21:27:15  <OwenS> Except for for C++
21:27:20  <OwenS> GCC is going away
21:27:29  <planetmaker> default is still gcc
21:27:56  <OwenS> planetmaker, well, GCC is marked as "going away when Clang's C++ support matures"
21:28:07  <OwenS> (And good riddance to that monstrosity)
21:28:08  <JakeGrimshaw> I know this is a bit OT, but does anyone have RT3 here?
21:28:09  <Rubidium> the cross compiler doesn't even work fine with gcc 4.2 IIRC
21:28:25  <OwenS> And Apple STILL use a 1995 binutils...
21:28:42  <Rubidium> OwenS: uhm... I doubt that
21:29:17  <zodttd> Rubidium: So what can be done for me to see OpenTTD on the iPad? I'm not seeing much cooperation here now. I need to let people know as I'm getting emails from fans of OpenTTD from tt-forums and of mine in general. They'll definitely be upset when they sync their iPad and it's removed.
21:30:11  <planetmaker> zodttd, try to do it piecewise. Aim for 1.1 :-)
21:30:19  <planetmaker> or 1.0.1
21:30:25  <planetmaker> if you like
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21:30:37  <planetmaker> submit the patches you need
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21:30:48  <planetmaker> allow your changes to move into the official repo
21:31:08  <planetmaker> (submit = submit to Flyspray)
21:31:14  <Yexo> zodttd: start with included all license files and readme files
21:31:16  <Rubidium> I'd say start by cleaning up the source repository so "we" can see what's changed and such
21:31:18  <zodttd> I dont think you understand. Rubidium wrote Apple with a pull notice. If he doesn't write Apple in the next hour or so with an explaination to not pull it and say it's resolved, there will be no OpenTTD on AppStore by me ever.
21:31:30  <zodttd> Once they pull it, I can't resubmit
21:31:50  <Rubidium> and create a binary package we can review
21:32:20  <planetmaker> zodttd, they'd allow that, if done at a later date, too, I'd guess
21:32:23  <zodttd> I can have you one in a few seconds. It's basically including a tar of OpenGFX / SFX and a LICENSE.TXT in the IPA
21:32:46  <zodttd> planetmaker: I am not able to get OpenTTD on the iPhone now from all I've seen.
21:33:17  <Ammler> zodttd: I would prefer the readme.txt
21:33:19  <planetmaker> as there's no word that things changed from Rb
21:33:21  <tokai> How is this Apple's application signing compatible with GPL, btw? Wasn't there some issue there?
21:33:21  <zodttd> They log all communication and pull notices on their backend and keep an eye on the status
21:33:28  <zodttd> Ammler: Good point
21:33:44  <Ammler> the readme should also point to the license file
21:34:14  <Ammler> (on the splash)
21:34:29  <Rubidium> oh, also... if I don't react on IRC within say a day, feel free to ask the others and send me an email instead of assuming everything is okay
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21:35:08  <zodttd> Rubidium: I'll remember that for the next Apple device. :-/
21:35:20  <Eoin> the iPadPhone
21:36:39  <dihedral> or the iphonepad?
21:36:45  <dihedral> phoneIpad?
21:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause> zodttd: this one?
21:37:01  <dihedral> lol
21:37:03  <Rubidium> iperiod?
21:37:14  <dihedral> i.
21:37:22  <planetmaker> iDot
21:37:25  <Rubidium> works great with the ipad
21:37:31  <dihedral> yeah
21:39:09  <Asheron> chuckles, Apple may come out with the first fully integrated communication device..... and a way for it to be hardwired to the human brain... Star Trek Communicators meet HUD Computers in cool looking Rayban Sunglasses
21:39:20  * Rubidium still likes the iRack
21:39:47  <Asheron> They just clip on your head like LtCom. Jordi Laforges optics visor
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21:42:08  <Ammler> zodttd: how does someone without i<whatever> download/get your package?
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21:42:50  <PeterT> Ammler: without a device? just download iTunes and make a free account
21:42:55  <PeterT> without iTunes? not possible
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21:45:50  <Ammler> well, at least it is possible to get it for free...
21:46:43  <Ammler> dunno, if that is fine for nocom clause
21:46:51  <KenjiE20> <-- Asheron :P
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21:48:11  <Ammler> what is the easiest/most safe way to determine if openttd has blitter support?
21:48:22  *** lolman [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:48:32  <Ammler> on dedicated
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21:48:43  <Rubidium> -h
21:48:51  <Ammler> and grep for it?
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21:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> * Rubidium still likes the iRack <-- wasn't that "mission accomplished" and the new focus the "iRan"?
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21:50:59  <Rubidium> Ammler: yes; just openttd -h | grep -B1 'List of blitters' | tail -n1 |grep -v null
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21:51:42  <Rubidium> if it's empty there're no other blitters
21:52:43  <Eddi|zuHause> not -A1?
21:52:55  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: possibly :)
21:53:14  <Ammler> -B1 didn't work :-)
21:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, -C1 ;)
21:53:47  <Ammler> but doesn't matter, I grep for 8bpp-optimized
21:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: what if that one is dropped for some platforms for some reason?
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21:54:35  <planetmaker> :-D
21:54:37  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: at compile time? Guess that's too much work
21:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's not impossible...
21:55:14  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: well, as I start it with -b8bpp-optimized
21:55:36  <Ammler> it is fine, it would also fail in that case
21:56:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, if you say so...
21:56:10  <zodttd> Rubidium: Do you have any intentions to write Apple to place a hold on the pulling of OpenTTD for iPad, so that I may update it today and include all licensing agreements in the filesystem and splash?
21:56:17  <Ammler> well, another ugly ap+ hack :-)
21:56:42  <planetmaker> hehe @ Ammler :-)
21:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: pherhaps add $BLITTER as a configurable variable...
21:57:38  <Ammler> yes, but that wouldn't solve if that config is set but openttd compiled without blitter
22:00:55  <Cadde> AGH! I became a Supernode and that is the first and LAST time.
22:02:10  <Cadde> Not that i wanted to in the first place. Nor did i know until i wondered why my HDD was on constantly and my traffic was 30 Kbyte/s either way.
22:04:13  <Cadde> I can see how some people who have limited traffic on their ISP could find this to be quite annoying.
22:06:56  <Cadde> So to anyone running skype. The above is for you as depending on your bandwidth or ISP plan it can ruin your day!
22:07:22  *** Wizzleby [] has joined #openttd
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22:18:19  <OwenS> Cadde, just avoid Skype?
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22:21:13  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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22:27:32  <Cadde> OwenS: No can do, skype is good as a voip solution and that's why all my friends are using it.
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22:27:45  <Cadde> Thus, i sorta have to use it as well
22:28:08  <Cadde> I'm gonna compile your patch now. Been sleeping.
22:28:15  <OwenS> If I want voice chat, I use the phone... Though I have lots of minutes I don't use anyway :p
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22:28:36  <Nite_Owl> Will the new title screen make it into the nightly any time soon? (Just a question - not a priority)
22:28:45  <OwenS> Nite_Owl, no. Never
22:29:00  <OwenS> It's a title screen for 1.0 only
22:30:15  <Nite_Owl> Interesting and probably just as well
22:30:40  <OwenS> That the existing save game is so old makes it a good test
22:31:10  <Nite_Owl> true enough
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22:34:52  <Cadde> OwenS: Eh, how did you get this to load in VS again?
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22:35:31  <JakeGrimshaw> are you there Born_Acorn ?
22:35:46  <OwenS> Cadde, try running projects/generate.vbs. I notice that the generate script has messed them up in the diff...
22:36:07  <Cadde> Oh right sorry forgot
22:36:34  <OwenS> Then open the solution file
22:37:28  <Cadde> So are the progsig sources added to the project at this stage or do i have to do it manually still?
22:37:49  <OwenS> They should be added
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22:38:03  <OwenS> The generate script looks at the sources.list, like the makefile for every other platform
22:38:12  <Yexo> Cadde: if you've added the files to source.list they'll be added to the project files by the generate script
22:38:26  <Cadde> Oh i see, thanks OwenS, Yexo.
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22:39:41  <JakeGrimshaw> As Born_Acorn is not here, does anyone else know anything about RT3 ?
22:41:50  <JakeGrimshaw> don't all rush at once ;)
22:41:56  <Cadde> OwenS: Now i remember what happened last time i used the strings.h in tables.
22:42:18  <Cadde> Error	1	error C4430: missing type specifier - int assumed. Note: C++ does not support default-int	d:\ottddev\ottdsrc_19638_progsig\objs\langs\table\strings.h	6	openttd  <---- Thats just one of 607
22:42:36  <Yexo> Cadde: include string_type.h first
22:43:42  <Cadde> Yexo: Ok. So thats a bug in OwenS code then.
22:44:14  <OwenS> The thing I have to wonder: Why does it compile fine everywhere else? What is the difference?
22:45:01  <Cadde> OwenS: It compiles fine when i replace strings.h with string.h and string.h is nowhere to be found in the ottd source.
22:45:19  <Cadde> So that means you are probably using a strings.h someplace on your environment.
22:45:27  <OwenS> Cadde, string.h is a C standard provided header
22:46:03  <Cadde> strings and string are two different file names though.
22:46:27  <OwenS> hmm... strings.h seems to be the backward compatibility header for K&R C, with crap like bzero() in it
22:46:42  <Cadde> Either it's VS 2008 that requires string_type.h first or it's your environment providing a strings.h somewhere.
22:47:32  <OwenS> (Actually, I must say I wish bzero, or perhaps it renamed as memclr, had been carried forwards... It memset (x, 0, y) can confuse people..
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22:49:26  <Cadde> So what do you want me to do Owen. Use strings.h from table and add #include "string_types.h" or using my string.h that is somewhere on my computer.
22:49:32  <Cadde> (lol ^)
22:49:38  <OwenS> What happens if you just excise the line?
22:49:51  <Cadde> Compiling...
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22:52:35  <Cadde> Just the 4 performance warnings. (
22:53:30  <Cadde> Those 4 warnings have been there since i first compiled your code though.
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22:53:36  <Cadde> So nothing new.
22:55:28  <OwenS> Oh, jeez MSVC... those warnings are patently silly...
22:55:44  <Cadde> Whatever you say :D
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23:00:52  <Cadde> OwenS:
23:00:53  <Cadde> -STR_FACE_EYECOLOUR_TOOLTIP                                      :{BLACK}Aanfaarw Ànneren
23:00:53  <Cadde> +STR_FACE_EYECOLOUR_TOOLTIP                                      :{BLACK}Aaenfaarw Ouerréng
23:01:02  <Cadde> Isn't that beyond the scope of your patch?
23:01:05  <Cadde> ^^
23:01:17  <Cadde> It's in your diff
23:01:19  <OwenS> Cadde, yes. These things happen when git's merge algrorithm throws a wobbler
23:01:28  <Cadde> oh right.
23:03:53  *** rhaeder [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:07:26  <Cadde> Hmm, grr. The binary with max compression exceeds the maximum allowed size for the forum.
23:07:34  <Cadde> OwenS: How large is your binary?
23:07:52  <Cadde> I think VS sucks in more ways than i thought.
23:08:17  <OwenS> Cadde, my binary is 160Mb
23:08:27  <Cadde> err?
23:08:34  <OwenS> Debugging information
23:08:37  <Cadde> oh
23:08:55  *** ajmiles3 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:09:16  <Cadde> Oh well, i will just host it on my brothers line :P
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23:18:10  <Kovensky> <OwenS> Cadde, yes. These things happen when git's merge algrorithm throws a wobbler <-- use git gui, you can add / remove individual hunks / lines from commits
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23:20:08  <Cadde> OwenS:
23:20:55  <OwenS> :)
23:21:11  <OwenS> The download URL is password protected btw
23:21:16  <Cadde> OH SHIT
23:21:31  <Cadde> fixing...
23:22:34  <Cadde> OwenS: Is it still pw protected?
23:23:17  <OwenS> Yes it seems
23:23:29  <Cadde> kk thanks. Trying
23:23:33  <Cadde> Not my server ;)
23:25:33  <chaos95> wait what? programmable signals? :O
23:25:40  <OwenS> yes
23:25:49  <chaos95> hawt.
23:30:37  <Eoin_> Cadde: programmable how
23:30:57  <OwenS> Eoin_, read the topic
23:31:04  <Cadde> Eoin_: yeah, talk to owen
23:31:05  <OwenS> (And why are you asking Cadde when I developed them?! :P)
23:31:09  <Eoin_> well
23:31:14  <Eoin_> i just saw him as last post
23:31:15  <Eoin_> :P
23:31:19  *** ptr_ [] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzz]
23:31:32  <Eoin_> but what im basically asking is
23:31:33  <OwenS> Return to first post :p
23:31:41  <Eoin_> ive forgot..
23:31:42  * Cadde runs off with progsigs! Mooahahahahahhaaaa!
23:31:44  *** Eoin_ is now known as Eoin
23:31:56  <Eoin> basically
23:32:00  <KenjiE20> Eoin lol
23:32:03  <Eoin> shh
23:32:04  <OwenS> Cadde, before you run off... your link doesn't work ;p
23:32:09  <Eoin> im trying to tank a daily on WoW
23:32:10  <Eoin> and irc
23:32:15  <Eoin> basically
23:32:29  <Eoin> can it be a simple way of
23:32:31  <Eoin> oh fuck it
23:32:38  <Eoin> ill wait till someone asks something along the lines of it :P
23:33:03  <OwenS> Eoin, or just, y'know, read the first post?
23:33:40  <Cadde> OwenS: I know, i am trying to get the apache to restart but i can't even elevate my priviledges.
23:33:41  <Eoin> oh
23:33:43  <Cadde> I suck
23:33:45  <Eoin> programmable in a different sense
23:33:46  <Eoin> i get it
23:33:47  <Cadde> Basically
23:34:04  <OwenS> What were you expecting?
23:34:08  <OwenS> Cadde, aah
23:34:50  <Eoin> i dont know
23:34:50  <Cadde> OwenS:
23:34:53  <Eoin> tbh :P
23:34:54  <Cadde> That works right
23:34:59  <JakeGrimshaw> man, I hate Railroad Tycoon 3
23:35:08  <KenjiE20> lol
23:35:20  <Cadde> It's a dirty fix until i can molest my brother while he's not sleeping
23:35:50  <KenjiE20> isn't that... nvm, I'll not say that
23:36:14  <JakeGrimshaw> lol
23:36:42  <Cadde> Don't make me restart my browser.
23:37:45  <amalloy1> i've been reading about cargo dist and would like to try it, but i can't seem to find a link to the latest windows binary. anyone happen to know where it is?
23:38:02  <Cadde> amalloy1: I will make a combined package soon
23:38:40  <Cadde> With cargodist, daylength, chill's latest and progsigs
23:38:43  <KenjiE20>
23:39:00  <KenjiE20> ( the last one I know of)
23:39:32  <Cadde> Can anyone tell me if the link i posted is pw protected?
23:40:11  <Terkhen> good night
23:40:23  <KenjiE20> DNS fail for me, but that might be my net
23:40:40  <amalloy1> no pw for me
23:40:48  <Cadde>
23:40:52  <Cadde> Thanks amalloy1
23:41:05  <amalloy1> the zip file has an exe and some folders in it
23:41:12  <amalloy1> so looks like you've succeeded
23:41:18  <OwenS> No COPYING file?
23:41:34  <Cadde> OMG, for real?
23:41:44  <amalloy1> uhhh
23:41:45  <Cadde> Am i going to get raped now?
23:41:47  <amalloy1> i didn't look that closely
23:41:59  <amalloy1> but correct, no copying
23:42:05  <amalloy1> just openttd.exe and some folders
23:42:44  <Cadde> Someone beat me with a stick and tell me what i need to do
23:43:06  <SpComb> make bundle_zip
23:43:06  <KenjiE20> 'make bundle' ?
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23:44:38  <planetmaker> Cadde: always use bundle_zip, if you want to distribute stuff
23:44:55  <planetmaker> (or bundle_dmg, ...whatever bundle you like)
23:45:11  <Cadde> hrrrrrr. what?
23:45:16  <planetmaker> or you'll get flamed for not obeying the copyright
23:45:19  * Cadde is confused and scared.
23:45:38  <OwenS> planetmaker, he didn't use mingw to build it...
23:46:04  <planetmaker> doesn't msvc offer similar things?
23:46:21  * OwenS shrugs
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23:47:44  <Cadde> Can't i just add the COPYING and .txt files to the zip?
23:47:51  <Cadde> To i really have to install MinGW
23:48:00  <amalloy1> afaik msvc has a make-like tool
23:48:10  <OwenS> amalloy1, nmake, but it requires nmakefiles ;-)
23:48:10  <planetmaker> of course you can add the docs manually to the zip
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23:48:15  <Cadde> Ofc, if i did install MinGW i wouldn't have to work with VS and that might make things easier later on
23:49:49  <Cadde> Replacing .zip file, don't download it right now.
23:50:11  <Cadde> Done
23:50:41  <Cadde> It now has COPYING and *.txt files. Now the copyright mafia can't touch me and sue me for 30 million SEK
23:50:46  <Cadde> ^^
23:50:52  <planetmaker> my bundle folder has COPYING changelog readme ...  yeah
23:51:16  <amalloy1> okay, so i got the binary all set. it complained at first that i was missing some newGRFs so i copied my ./data folder from 1.0 into the cargodist folder. now everything works, apparently including newGRFs and cargodist, but i have no music
23:51:20  <planetmaker> Cadde: even if it's not copyright, it's courtesy to acknowledge those who put months of work into it.
23:51:31  <Cadde> planetmaker: Ofc it is
23:51:47  <chaos95> why is it a bad idea to have automatic distribution and default stopping in orders?
23:52:02  <Cadde> It's also courtesy to not take files that have no copyright mention and wipe ones butt with it.
23:52:23  <amalloy1> because then your trains my unintentionally unload passengers at stations they don't want to go to, i believe
23:52:28  <Cadde> chaos95: did you mean CargoDist and Non-stop orders?
23:53:34  <Cadde> amalloy1: No music? The HORROR! (I guess it was compiled without DirectX support)
23:53:59  <amalloy1> unlikely. the sound works
23:54:07  <OwenS> amalloy1, sound doesn't use directx
23:54:22  <OwenS> amalloy1, look at the post. It says music is disabled
23:54:36  <Cadde> The music is using DX 7 in TTD
23:54:52  <amalloy1> what post?
23:55:01  <chaos95> Cadde: yeah; I got a warning saying that at least one cargo type was set to be automatically delivered, and 'new orders are non-stop' was disabled, and that this was a bad idea
23:55:13  <OwenS>
23:56:05  <Cadde> chaos95: Yeah, the trains would stop at each station along the line in a network and unload and load the passengers who's destination is further along the line.
23:56:35  <chaos95> ah
23:56:39  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what do i do with a file called ""?
23:56:45  <Cadde> Cargodist checks if the train has an order going to destination X and if it does it will load the train with passengers intended for destination X
23:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 3351
23:57:11  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by peter1138 :: r3351 trunk/train_gui.c (2005-12-28 09:40:26 UTC)
23:57:12  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Make sort criteria selection widgets in player train list consistent with those widgets in other vehicle type lists. (Stops "Total capacity per cargo type" overflowing)
23:57:23  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: put in your local shelf of the prehistoric collection of software
23:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think "prehistoric" is the right word ;)
23:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you define "history" started when i switched to linux :p
23:59:03  <amalloy1> oh, does the binary you pointed me at have progsigs as well?

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