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00:03:47 <frosch123> night 00:03:51 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc94f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:10 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 00:08:51 *** uzver [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 00:13:23 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:13:53 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:43:11 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dba8c08.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:43:28 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:44:06 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CA0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:18 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.147.62] has quit [Quit: ãããã¿ãªãã] 01:01:09 *** Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-98-254-113-47.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 01:01:24 <Nite_Owl> Hello all 01:03:38 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.A212.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 01:10:55 <DDR> Hi. 01:11:01 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:10 <Nite_Owl> Hello DDR 01:16:06 *** Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-98-254-113-47.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon] 01:18:33 *** OwenS [~oshepherd@cpc1-stkn14-2-0-cust562.11-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:12 *** goblin_ [~goblin@krlh-5f726f6e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:02 *** luddek [~ludde@h-92-160.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: luddek] 01:47:56 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 01:52:17 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.A212.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 01:52:22 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 02:12:32 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: ecke] 02:23:24 <Vornicus> Arg, one button I want so much: "load until another train that will load arrives" 02:23:28 <Vornicus> or something 02:39:38 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 02:53:04 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.210] has joined #openttd 02:56:55 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:09:43 * DDR nods. 03:20:58 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:1494:befd:37d6:3757] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:39:43 *** r0b0tb0y [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 03:47:13 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:11:38 *** r0b0tb0y [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:17:12 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:56:04 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77423.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:56:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7677E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:57:59 *** r0b0tb0y [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:09:00 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@88.130.189.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:53 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:40:05 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.210] has joined #openttd 05:49:58 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 05:58:24 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 06:04:12 *** r0b0tb0y [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:21:02 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-23-141.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:44 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-23-141.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 06:58:24 *** r0b0tb0y [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 06:58:53 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 07:05:57 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:13:58 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 07:15:13 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 07:17:41 <Terkhen> good morning 07:19:28 *** r0b0tb0y [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:19:28 <andythenorth> morning 07:23:46 <Zuu> good morning 07:30:12 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.21.20.116] has joined #openttd 07:36:59 *** nighthawk_c_m [~nighthawk@pD9506FE7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:40:23 <planetmaker> morning 07:41:00 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/customisablefarmtiles.diff <-- andythenorth that link was left to you by frosch last night 07:41:12 <planetmaker> he expects a working newgrf once he wakes up :-P 07:41:30 * andythenorth needs to learn how the bncr works :( 07:41:45 <planetmaker> just configure it to remember the last XY lines 07:41:56 <planetmaker> and make XY a sufficient large number 07:42:00 <planetmaker> like 100 ... 200 07:42:16 <planetmaker> or even larger and activate "clear upon connect" 07:42:26 <andythenorth> how? where? etc 07:42:34 <planetmaker> That I don't know ;-) 07:42:40 <planetmaker> In the bouncer settings on the server 07:43:07 * andythenorth has only one hand free. perhaps the baby should learn to type. that would help 07:43:27 <planetmaker> yeah, teach him? her?= 07:43:35 <andythenorth> him 07:43:57 <nighthawk_c_m> Teach the baby to code while you do something else :-P 07:43:59 * andythenorth will be strictly using lower case until some future time 07:44:09 <planetmaker> ;-) 07:44:22 <planetmaker> small letters for small people :-P 07:45:51 <andythenorth> newgrf gui is a puzzle 07:46:01 <nighthawk_c_m> I should study myself why I always want a huge map, ending up with realizing that all towns are so far from each other that always a ICE/TGV line has its right to exist 07:46:18 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.21.20.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:46:19 <andythenorth> we're obsessing quite a lot over something that most people only use once every few days :o 07:46:23 <andythenorth> :) 07:46:37 <nighthawk_c_m> ^^ 07:47:24 <planetmaker> http://bnc.openttdcoop.org:6667/ <-- andythenorth you can login with your user name and pw there and should be able to configure it 07:47:28 <planetmaker> IIRC 07:47:31 <nighthawk_c_m> I should dissasemble some GRF's some time to get a basic understanding of the pcx setups - I don't really get the idea how the nfo finds the right sprites in the pcx 07:47:46 <andythenorth> xy coords 07:48:09 <andythenorth> it's very basic :) 07:48:21 <planetmaker> apropos newgrf GUI, andythenorth: why do you think that the one-list view is better? I don't follow your argument quite... 07:48:38 <andythenorth> i might be wrong in this case 07:49:11 <andythenorth> it's cleaner and follows a recognisable pattern, but might be the wrong tool for this problem 07:49:32 <andythenorth> planetmaker: got firefox? 07:49:37 <planetmaker> what 'recognizable' pattern? 07:49:51 <andythenorth> the content download window 07:49:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, I do. Why? 07:50:10 <planetmaker> that's something completely different. That's an unsorted list 07:50:10 <andythenorth> go to preferences->content->languages->choose 07:50:25 <planetmaker> why should I chose a language? 07:50:33 <andythenorth> just look at the gui :) 07:50:52 <andythenorth> it's closer to solving the problem you described in your forum post 07:51:21 <andythenorth> it's missing the info panel, but imagine this was the lhs of a two-panel layout 07:52:04 <andythenorth> the drop down would suck in ottd though 07:52:23 <andythenorth> makes me think those of you who like the 2-list version might have valid points 07:52:48 <andythenorth> not my taste though :P 07:53:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't think it's a good GUI for the task at hand in OpenTTD 07:53:57 * andythenorth wonders what's wrong with the current newgrf 'add' using a separate window? 07:54:04 <planetmaker> Languages make only sense to choose one. There's no point to sort them 07:54:15 <planetmaker> and no point to compare them 07:54:42 <andythenorth> yes there is - but nvm 07:54:42 <Terkhen> andythenorth: it is slow 07:54:48 <planetmaker> the current newgrf window offers not a good overview of what is selected and^ 07:54:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why not? 07:55:23 <andythenorth> it gives a scrollable list of what is selected.... 07:55:34 <planetmaker> but not of what is available at the same time 07:55:41 <planetmaker> the GUI is about making a choice of what to use 07:55:54 <planetmaker> in order to make that efficient you need both: what you have and what you can have 07:56:16 <planetmaker> concurrently is important 07:56:25 <andythenorth> no it's not 07:56:31 <planetmaker> of course. 07:56:44 <planetmaker> say I want to select some station grfs. 07:56:50 <planetmaker> hm... what do I miss. 07:56:55 <planetmaker> click back and forth is very bad 07:57:07 <planetmaker> or when going through the list, composing in general a nice selection 07:57:18 <planetmaker> I need to know what I have when going through the list of (further) newgrf 07:57:34 <planetmaker> This selection. That's the most important point of the NewGRF _selection_ window 07:57:34 <andythenorth> ok fair point 07:57:45 <planetmaker> And that very task is handled quite inefficiently in the current form 07:57:49 <planetmaker> or with any one-list view 07:58:01 <andythenorth> I think it's quite efficient on clicks. But maybe not on ease 07:58:19 <planetmaker> the clicks are as few on a two-list view 07:58:24 <andythenorth> we want ease, but speed != ease 07:58:25 <planetmaker> just double-click to add or remove 07:58:29 <andythenorth> yup 07:58:44 <planetmaker> which is easy :-) 07:58:49 <andythenorth> this isn't something you do 200 times an hour, so number of clicks less important than making it obvious what to do 07:58:54 * andythenorth hmmms 07:59:04 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C8CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:59:40 <planetmaker> Let's say: I prepared quite a number of games. And when it comes to ease of use, a two-list view is - at least for me personally - WAY preferrable when making this choice than a one-list view 08:00:14 <andythenorth> but two small lists, one below the other doesn't solve your problem. 08:00:24 <Ammler> wow, active sunday morning :-) 08:00:27 <andythenorth> it's just a fail. it's logical but wrong 08:00:38 <planetmaker> uhm... why? 08:00:50 <planetmaker> honestly, the one-list view is a bigger fail 08:00:52 <andythenorth> because you want to easily compare two lists yes? 08:01:00 <andythenorth> so hiding most of each list is dumb 08:01:02 <andythenorth> so we need something better than that. and....bigger 08:01:09 <planetmaker> I want a view of what I have and an easy choice of things to add 08:01:19 <andythenorth> and you might have quite a lot? 08:01:20 <planetmaker> re-sizing is quite easily done 08:01:37 <planetmaker> thing is that small screens have to be kept considered 08:01:45 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0fd0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:01:52 <planetmaker> hello Ammler 08:01:53 <andythenorth> that's fine, that can be handled 08:02:00 <planetmaker> exactly 08:02:08 <planetmaker> it is handled as is 08:02:12 <andythenorth> so I typically have 15 grfs in my default setup. How many do you crazy coop people have? 08:02:20 <planetmaker> about that number, too 08:03:06 <planetmaker> one per vehicle type, a few stations, maybe a town, maybe some landscape 08:03:17 <planetmaker> maybe two RV or so. 08:03:27 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.21.20.116] has joined #openttd 08:03:38 <andythenorth> so there's an active list and inactive list 08:03:45 <planetmaker> ? 08:03:56 * andythenorth thinking out loud 08:04:10 <andythenorth> in the current design there is an 'active' list. but no 'inactive' list 08:04:20 <andythenorth> just an 'available' list 08:04:29 * planetmaker doesn't see an inactive list. Just two lists being used. 08:04:46 <andythenorth> nvm 08:04:59 <planetmaker> One for the newgrs selected. One for the (remaining) newgrfs being available 08:05:18 <planetmaker> which is what I'd do intuitively, if I'd have to select from something which I can lay out on the table in front of me 08:05:20 <andythenorth> so call that active / inactive. or selected / avaialble 08:05:25 <andythenorth> available /s 08:05:27 <andythenorth> ok 08:05:53 <andythenorth> so do you feel the need to see 'selected', 'available' *and* 'info about this newgrf' all at one point? 08:06:15 <andythenorth> I can see a reason for that.... 08:06:21 <planetmaker> Most often I only need the two lists without the detailed newgrf information 08:06:55 <planetmaker> that's why I proposed to make the detailed information possibly available in either an extra (child) window or an optional "window extension" 08:07:24 <andythenorth> I think that needs resolving before the rest of the list argument is resolved 08:07:37 <planetmaker> Though I see also some benefit in having it available. But if the child window doesn't close, that would be granted 08:08:24 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has joined #openttd 08:08:39 <andythenorth> I can forsee a 'utility' panel on the rhs which would cover extended info, and possibly in future setting newgrf parameters via gui 08:08:46 <planetmaker> There's basically three principal options I see: 08:08:52 <planetmaker> lists beneath eachother 08:09:00 <planetmaker> lists horizontally next to each other 08:09:06 <planetmaker> lists in two separate windows 08:09:24 <planetmaker> which are concurrently open (e.g. the available list doesn't close as now) 08:09:57 <planetmaker> the detailed info could be in all cases part of that window or in an extra window, doesn't really matter 08:10:10 <planetmaker> I guess it's nicer to have that info available, though 08:10:17 <andythenorth> and there is some thought of possibly using this for other content 08:10:26 <planetmaker> Especially if come to think that there might become further info available in the future 08:13:56 <andythenorth> how many characters of a newgrf title do you need to see for it to be usable? 08:14:50 <andythenorth> oh 08:14:57 <andythenorth> I also have to think about opengfx :o 08:15:17 <andythenorth> hmm 08:15:28 <planetmaker> what about opengfx? 08:15:29 <andythenorth> the opengfx pixel font is usefully similar to the default one :) 08:15:32 <andythenorth> it's fine 08:15:46 <planetmaker> default = opengfx :-P 08:16:05 <planetmaker> proprietary = old ;-) 08:16:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: have a look at your newgrf list....how narrow could the list area be? 08:16:50 <andythenorth> before usability suffers... 08:17:03 <planetmaker> not much narrower than default 08:17:41 <planetmaker> well. Actually ... 08:17:50 <planetmaker> 3/5 of default 08:18:04 <andythenorth> pixel dimensions? 08:18:08 <planetmaker> maybe 4/5 08:19:46 <andythenorth> I think a two-list solution is better for your problem 08:20:15 <andythenorth> the two lists being side-by-side, for two reasons 08:20:17 <planetmaker> @calc 64*4 08:20:17 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 256 08:20:19 <planetmaker> ^ 08:20:36 <andythenorth> (a) side-by-side is how we compare things 08:20:51 <planetmaker> I do agree. That's why I made my version back than that way :-) 08:20:55 <andythenorth> (b) if the list is to be useful, we need to give it maximum possibly vertical height 08:21:19 <Zuu> I think a possible NewGRF settings GUI would be a separate window as with the AIs. Better use the rhs pannel for information. Like authors, sticking notes etc. 08:21:29 <planetmaker> but as opposed to what I wrote back then, the detailed view could be even next to it, too 08:22:13 <andythenorth> Zuu unless the game code makes it impossible, there's no reason the rhs panel can't change it's purpose depending what buttons are clicked.... 08:23:14 <Zuu> Hmm, another option would be to put the lists side by side. and then have a smaller information panel below for basic information and then any extra information/settings would be new windows. 08:23:22 <planetmaker> I guess I could try a mockup of what might be useful 08:23:29 <planetmaker> But it won't be a small window anymore... 08:24:15 <planetmaker> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2195/getfile/3877/newgrf_gui_v2_normal.png <-- like that, Zuu ? :-) 08:24:52 <Zuu> Yep 08:26:04 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm working on a mockup like that 08:26:09 <andythenorth> only much better :P 08:26:12 <andythenorth> or not :) 08:26:34 <Zuu> of course it will be better when it is made by andy? 08:27:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that image is not a mockup but was a working patch ;-) 08:27:22 <planetmaker> by me actually :-P 08:28:36 * andythenorth might be smoking crack 08:29:02 <andythenorth> I'm making something to solve your problem not mine. I still like one list :P 08:29:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you don't get 256 pixels 08:30:03 <planetmaker> why not? 08:30:24 <planetmaker> Smaller and the list will be hardly usable as many newgrf titles are truncated. 08:30:35 <planetmaker> which makes selecting the proper version impossible 08:31:07 <andythenorth> so newgrf authors should use shorter titles. me included 08:31:15 <planetmaker> unless you want us to play with FIRS 0.1.0 and FISH 0.1.0 and so on 08:31:19 <andythenorth> something has to give :) 08:31:33 <planetmaker> well, those two would still fit 08:31:43 <planetmaker> but all those ECS would become indistinguishable 08:32:03 <planetmaker> AND: we cannot change back existing titles. And there's a lot which would get truncated with a width shorter than that 08:32:12 <planetmaker> of course it depends upon font, but still 08:33:19 <andythenorth> oh there's the fricking 'newgrf status' icon as well :P 08:33:20 <andythenorth> grrr 08:34:09 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:34:19 <Alberth> moin 08:35:28 <andythenorth> funny how in some places openttd gui is abstemious with white spaces and in other places it makes free with it 08:36:56 <Alberth> it is extremely inconsistent :) 08:38:09 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c9e7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:38:47 <Alberth> Someone should write a gui style guide :) 08:40:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker et al, how long are your preset names? 08:41:12 <Alberth> 0 characters 08:41:44 <andythenorth> brilliant, that fits into the gui very easily 08:41:46 <andythenorth> any other bids? 08:42:00 <Alberth> it also saves 3 buttons :) 08:42:25 <Alberth> oh, and the preset load/save stuff 08:44:00 <Alberth> devs will be very happy :p 08:45:39 <andythenorth> and I have to allow for translations on buttons like 'add'? So I can't crop to min. size? 08:46:21 <Alberth> the widget system handles that automagically 08:46:49 <andythenorth> but if the gui is designed too precisely resp. sizes, there's a problem....? 08:47:04 <Alberth> ie you say 'minimal size' please, and depending on the actual texts, the widget system will compute the real sizes 08:47:10 * andythenorth is used to thinking web layouts where *everything* breaks all the time :| 08:47:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth, presets like "tropical_strech" or "Japanese set" should fit 08:47:50 <andythenorth> ok 08:48:01 <planetmaker> oh, hello Alberth :-) 08:48:19 <Alberth> someone left a hole in HTML to allow specifying sizes :( 08:48:27 <Alberth> moin planetmaker 08:48:50 <andythenorth> ummm 08:49:02 <andythenorth> really, could presets be handled in a separate window? 08:49:07 <andythenorth> please please? 08:49:13 <planetmaker> doesn't really make sense, does it? 08:49:23 <Alberth> after last evening discussion, I am starting to favor the 2 list solution 08:49:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am working on a layout for that in photoshop 08:49:39 <planetmaker> If I'm about to select newgrfs, it makes perfect sense to select a collection right there 08:49:41 <Alberth> it makes no sense for me to have presets elsewhere 08:50:08 <andythenorth> ok 08:50:35 <andythenorth> I think the mechanism for deleting presets is....weird but anyway.... 08:51:57 <Alberth> at least you can delete them, unlike downloaded content :) 08:52:41 <planetmaker> hehe 08:53:24 <planetmaker> Something which *would* be nice, but would also need a lot of work on the newgrf implementation side (v8 newgrf version): 08:54:04 <asilv> presets and download content don't work very well together, as presets don't automagically update to new versions downloaded from bananas. but i guess there is no reasonable way to solve that 08:54:09 <planetmaker> a newgrf selection in the style of the adv. settings with sub-sections for the different types. But I guess that's not something possible now 08:54:58 <planetmaker> Like newgrf->ships->fish->parameters sub menus could be possible 08:55:08 <planetmaker> Like newgrf->ships->fish->v1.0->parameters sub menus could be possible 08:55:20 <Ammler> the big issue is, that bananas has version info in the file path 08:55:24 <planetmaker> that way :-) so that newgrfs are versioned and parameter not as cryptic anymore 08:56:08 <planetmaker> anyway, that's beyond the newgrf GUI discussion now :-) 08:56:30 <Alberth> hmm, I suggested use of tree-like somewhere, but connot remember in what area any more. 08:56:53 <planetmaker> Alberth, it doesn't make sense as long as it cannot be supported on the newgrf side... 08:57:23 <planetmaker> or as long as the user cannot attach (local) attributes / do the sorting 08:57:40 <Zuu> or OpenTTD record the tags from BaNaNaS. 08:57:42 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC570C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:58:40 <Alberth> asilv: you don't always want to upgrade 08:59:27 <asilv> true 08:59:35 <Alberth> Zuu: a record seperate from the grf itself is way too complex and fragile, the grf itself should have that info 08:59:45 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:00:51 <Zuu> Alberth: I agree on that though, that having the info in the grf would be more robust. 09:01:39 <asilv> someone called Skiper seems to have added mb's newstations and newships grfs to bananas 09:03:23 <planetmaker> again? 09:03:26 <andythenorth> that's not going to end well :P 09:03:47 <planetmaker> well, maybe not him, but I recall some tt-ms bloke did that some time ago, too ;-) 09:03:49 <Zuu> hehe, add a md5sum blacklist for his grfs :-) 09:04:09 <andythenorth> is there an official 'max width' for a new newgrf gui? 09:04:17 <asilv> well mb's license actually would allow it, but bananas rules don't 09:06:30 <Ammler> I am sure, it is against MB's rules 09:06:44 <Ammler> as you can't upload the whole package 09:07:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: as small as possible (in both directions). Afaik there is no number, but that is also kind of pointless with changing texts and font sizes 09:07:42 <andythenorth> so....we have no agreed constraint, and we want to fit *everything* into one window 09:07:45 <andythenorth> meh :) 09:08:00 <Alberth> but bigger than 640x480 seems like a problem 09:08:11 <andythenorth> what about phones? 09:08:25 <Alberth> I doubt they have screens that big 09:08:48 <Zuu> I've never understood why you want to play OpenTTD on a phone, when playing it on a laptop with touchpad is troublesome enough. 09:09:26 <Alberth> having a pen to click at the screen is not better than a touch-pad? 09:09:42 <andythenorth> the thing is, isn't the reason we have the current gui is because it fits into the tiny screens that some players want? 09:09:48 <Zuu> A pen would be a lot better. 09:09:53 <andythenorth> or is it just that no-one got around to changing it yet? 09:10:24 <Zuu> That said, having a GUI that fits in 640x480 is probably not a bad thing, just don't cramp everything into 320x200 :-p 09:10:48 <andythenorth> 640x480 is perfect for the layout I'm trying 09:10:50 *** nighthawkcm [~nighthawk@pD950557B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:10:59 <planetmaker> Zuu, I find playing with a touchpad actually quite natural... 09:11:07 * andythenorth plays with touchpad 09:11:09 * planetmaker actually always plays using the touchpad only 09:11:19 <Zuu> 640x480 in English would probably be even bigger in german translation though :-p 09:11:19 <planetmaker> :-) 09:11:23 <Zuu> or Finish. 09:11:26 <Ammler> planetmaker: s/playing/watching/ 09:11:32 <planetmaker> pfft! 09:11:35 <Alberth> current implementation wastes screen space because of the double grf-info display 09:11:40 <andythenorth> yup 09:11:44 <andythenorth> that's what I'm thinking 09:12:03 <Zuu> Maybe I'm to used to wacoms absolute adressing to be comfortable with a touchpad. 09:12:03 <andythenorth> in a mockup....would you rather see my preferred layout at 640x480, or 'proof' that it can be crammed a bit smaller? 09:12:44 <Ammler> Alberth: did you ever check the "old new" newgrf gui? 09:13:10 <Alberth> any layout will be fine, I cannot judge sizes until after implementation 09:13:35 <Ammler> it might be coded bad, what I don't have an idea about, but it is still best. 09:13:54 <Alberth> Ammler: yes I did, but trying to upgrade got incredible messy, so I started anew. 09:14:04 <Alberth> Ammler: you mean with the drag/drop? 09:14:40 <Ammler> drag&drop, switch name->file, nice big lists 09:14:42 <Alberth> or with the layout? 09:15:59 <Terkhen> Alberth: trees were for the splitted refit window 09:16:50 <Alberth> I am just starting to consider new features, just getting at the current point already took me 3 attempts and several weeks 09:16:59 <Alberth> Terkhen: ah, yes. Thanks 09:18:03 *** nighthawk_c_m [~nighthawk@pD9506FE7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:18:53 <Ammler> also static grfs should be handle-able by gui 09:19:28 <Alberth> Ammler: I don't expect to be finished after putting my new gui into trunk. 09:20:37 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:20:40 <Alberth> so further suggestions are welcome in the thread I guess. 09:20:41 <Ammler> hehe 09:20:53 <Rubidium> andythenorth: there is a minimum maximum size: 640x480, i.e. the smallest scaled version of the window should fit when playing the game at 640x480. 09:21:18 <Alberth> in english UK :) 09:21:18 <andythenorth> great, that's a nice constraint 09:21:23 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:21:32 <andythenorth> now if stuff doesn't fit, I can kick it off the screen :P 09:21:39 <andythenorth> constraints == good 09:22:02 <Alberth> only constraints that you can realize are good 09:22:04 <Rubidium> see e.g. the network server list, which is less than 640x480 with its minimum size, but the default size is way bigger to make it more usable 09:23:06 <Ammler> is openttd able to detect, if a grf is able to load static before loading a game? 09:24:03 <Alberth> frosch123 said yes yesterday, but the check is expensive 09:24:42 <Alberth> so doing it with every grf is not possible 09:25:26 <Zuu> But it could be done when you try to make a NewGRF static? 09:26:11 <Ammler> Zuu: that is, I usually list every newgrf to the static section after restart, the list is cleaned with static grfs :-) 09:26:30 <Ammler> hmm, was a long time ago, actually 09:26:33 <Rubidium> maybe it is becoming time to start with DV's idea w.r.t. loading NewGRFs 09:26:58 <Rubidium> cache stuff, so we don't need to read them upon startup except when they're new 09:27:28 <Rubidium> e.g. name, description, palette etc. 09:27:45 <Rubidium> but you can then also cache the static data 09:29:00 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: time for the weekly reboot] 09:29:34 <Ammler> also change the cfg/preset list to grfid or something version independent 09:30:27 <Rubidium> for that we better add (proper) versioning to NewGRFs too 09:30:43 <planetmaker> http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/ottdextens.png <-- don't bother with the messy background colours 09:30:51 <planetmaker> does that look like something which might make sense? 09:31:06 <Ammler> I thought about changing all newgrf file names to grfid.grf in the pre-bananas time 09:31:58 <planetmaker> that would unify selection and (possible) download of newgrfs. 09:32:14 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9853.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:32:22 <planetmaker> Left: what is selected for the current game, right: what is available (green dot) and could be available (empty checkbox) 09:32:44 <planetmaker> but the latter only, if "check online content" has been clicked. No automatic calling home 09:33:21 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 09:33:46 <Ammler> well, a kind of statistic for which grfs are "really" used would be cool :-) 09:34:23 <planetmaker> could be added in the left list by an appropriate colour bubble preceeding static newgrfs 09:34:37 <planetmaker> and an additional toggle in the view down which allows "set as static" 09:34:53 <planetmaker> s/view down/details view/ 09:35:29 <Ammler> set as static could be handled like palette 09:35:33 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:35:49 <planetmaker> exactly 09:36:07 <Alberth> the problem of your idea is that you split downloading to two windows 09:36:19 <Alberth> I am not sure that is a good idea 09:36:59 <andythenorth> gahh 09:37:03 <andythenorth> md5 sums :| 09:37:09 <Ammler> he, what about one list for local and bananas grfs 09:37:14 <andythenorth> can md5 sums wrap? 09:37:15 <Alberth> also the current gui is already quite complicated without the download integrated 09:37:23 <andythenorth> ummm 09:37:28 <Alberth> andythenorth: they do afaik 09:37:34 <andythenorth> why show them at all :| 09:37:34 <Ammler> and a simple toggle, if you like to view both and if you choose a grf which isn't local it downloads 09:38:40 <Ammler> also very confusing is that bananas uses other names than newgrf gui 09:39:20 <Alberth> (11:39:25 AM) Ammler: he, what about one list for local and bananas grfs <-- isn't the download gui doing that already? 09:39:46 <Ammler> Alberth: I meant in the list where you chose the grf to use 09:39:57 <Ammler> (no sep. bananas gui) 09:40:16 <planetmaker> Alberth, the download functionality could easily be left out of that window, if that's not desired. 09:40:22 <planetmaker> it wouldn't change the layout really 09:40:50 <Alberth> Ammler: bananas has more stuff than newgrfs 09:41:34 <planetmaker> Alberth, but then, if a unified extension selection (AI + NewGRF) is desired, it could make sense to just allow downloading from that window, too 09:42:00 <planetmaker> or just add the button "download online content" which will open that (existing) download dialogue 09:44:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/download_content.png <-- like this? 09:44:24 <Ammler> ah, I see, planetmaker's sreen is already what I meant 09:46:13 <Ammler> bananas should use the "manual" name only, when needed 09:46:13 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes. You may note that I added that button to my mockup, too ;-) 09:46:59 <planetmaker> at the bottom of the "all extensions" list 09:47:07 <Alberth> I see it 09:47:26 <Alberth> but you also have 3 vertical scrollbars, which is not possible atm :) 09:48:24 <planetmaker> he... 09:50:14 *** uzver [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 09:50:21 <planetmaker> I thought of adding the detailed information to the right of the two lists 09:50:32 <planetmaker> but that goes definitely beyond a width of 640 pixels 09:52:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: what's the limitation with 3 vertical scrollbars? 09:54:27 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 09:54:34 <Ammler> detail data needs a min width, not just fro md5sum 09:54:46 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff586.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:55:05 <Ammler> that is very ugly in one of Alberth's guis 09:55:58 <Alberth> Window class has a vscroll, vscoll2, and hscroll Scrollbar data structure (2 vertical, 1 horizontal). Also there are WWT_SCROLLBAR, WWT_SCROLL2BAR, and WWT_HSCROLLBAR widgets, ie specific for each of the Scrollbar data structures. 09:56:00 <planetmaker> well, the details view somehow needs a scroll bar or more space than in my mock-up 09:56:37 <Alberth> we need a generalized scrollbar concept if you want to go beyond that limit 09:56:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it's simply not possible without ^ 09:56:48 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 09:57:43 <andythenorth> frick 09:58:12 <andythenorth> well we can shortly admire my photoshop and say it's impossible :P 09:58:38 <Ammler> something else, is it possible to tell renum to ignore @@WARNING settings in nfo? 10:00:35 <planetmaker> Ammler, I don't think... that's what they're for after all 10:01:07 <Alberth> write a sed script to delete them first? 10:08:53 <Ammler> planetmaker: would be nice for checking if some settings become obsolete 10:10:07 *** luddek [~ludde@h-92-160.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 10:10:35 <planetmaker> sure. But then they're easily deleted and tested against. Unless it is sprinkled all throughout the code. 10:10:51 <planetmaker> but in that case grep and / or sed indeed helps ;-) 10:11:58 <Alberth> as well as a consistent code style :p 10:12:02 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/newgrf_3_panel_640x355.png 10:12:18 <heffer> hmmm. i just was about to push the latest opengfx 0.2.4 into Fedora repositories as this weird bug occurs to me 10:12:44 <heffer> as soon as i move the openttd window the game hangs. but ONLY if i'm on the start screen 10:13:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^ does that address your 'comparison' need? 10:13:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, it does 10:13:39 <heffer> oh okay. it hangs randomly ingame as well 10:13:41 <planetmaker> I'd like to propose one little change though 10:14:22 <planetmaker> The Preset should be next to the "Selected" and the preset buttons "save" and "delete" immediately beneath that 10:14:36 <planetmaker> as it basically gives the selected list its name 10:14:50 <planetmaker> (if it has one, otherwise it's "custom" as in your screen 10:15:07 <planetmaker> heffer, with other opengfx versions, too? 10:15:28 <planetmaker> I don't see how OpenGFX causes a hang... at least it didn't for me, nor did I hear such before 10:15:29 <heffer> no it seems unrelated to which graphics set is used 10:15:35 <planetmaker> uff ;-) 10:15:42 <heffer> i just noticed it while testing the new opengfx 10:16:03 <heffer> i unfortunately didn't have the time lately to get into excessive openttd gaming as i used to :D 10:16:11 <planetmaker> heffer, do you have a /data directory somewhere? 10:16:23 <heffer> yes. i was about to move that now 10:16:28 <planetmaker> with MANY files? 10:17:34 <heffer> in fact i didn't have one in my current profile 10:17:46 <heffer> i moved the openttd folder in my home dir anyway 10:17:50 <heffer> still hangs. 10:17:56 <heffer> i'm recompiling openttd now 10:18:01 <Zuu> andythenorth: IIRC an OpenTTD limitation is that there can only be two vectical scrollbars per window. 10:18:27 <Zuu> Thoguh, maybe Alberth managed to get away with it. 10:19:19 <Zuu> Still, rising that limit to 3 is probably not that hard, just that a system that allow any numbers would be a more clean fix. 10:19:51 <andythenorth> yep, the 3 scrollbars is a late-breaking piece of news for me :P 10:20:01 <andythenorth> might prevent this layout 10:20:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you are right about the location of the preset name, but it presents various problems 10:21:09 <Zuu> I like the layout though and as said it might not be impossible to raise the limit. 10:21:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: your "add" button is in the wrong panel 10:21:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm thinking that. 10:21:26 <andythenorth> the whole add / remove thing sucks 10:21:56 <andythenorth> we have drag and drop for vehicle groups 10:22:08 <Zuu> <-- removed the limit of max one edit box visible at the time in order to make his filter sign list patch, and this shouldn't be harder. :-p 10:22:15 <heffer> yaaay. seems to be a graphics driver issue in conjunction with compositing. we had lots of those in the late Fedora 13 development cycle 10:22:23 <heffer> so basically it's nothing i need to care about 10:22:33 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.147.62] has joined #openttd 10:23:39 <Zuu> Eg. if the 3-pannel version come up as a really good solution, then it might be worth the time it takes to add the ability to have more than 2 scroll bars. Especially if you think it would be usefull in future. So I'd say don't wory to much about it right now. 10:24:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the detail information in your layout doesn't really need a scrolbar 10:24:37 <Zuu> Depends on if andy is going to put his readme there or not. :-) 10:24:50 <planetmaker> and I think one needs both: add/remove buttons and drag+drop 10:25:28 <planetmaker> hm... readme. 10:25:50 <planetmaker> it'd be nice, if the details view could have a button "show readme". 10:26:00 <planetmaker> That's an issue especially with all those bananas things people download 10:26:15 <planetmaker> they're most often not even aware that there's a readme being shipped with the stuff they downloaded 10:26:20 <planetmaker> actually the same goes with the license. 10:26:20 <Zuu> andy proposed something along that yesterday or the day before that or so. 10:26:25 *** uzver [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 10:26:26 <planetmaker> :-) 10:26:51 <Alberth> (12:20:43 PM) Zuu: Thoguh, maybe Alberth managed to get away with it. <-- what did I do ? 10:26:51 <andythenorth> the panel on the right could be limited/truncated, with a 'more' button 10:27:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, for now it doesn't need any. 10:27:17 *** uzver [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 10:27:22 <planetmaker> it's usually large enough. Unless it's too small :-P 10:27:35 <Zuu> Isn't it today that there is vscrollbar and vscrollbar2 variables for the two scrollbars? 10:27:43 *** uzver [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 10:28:18 <Zuu> I was thinking about if you had been adressing that in your gui system rework. 10:28:39 *** uzver [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 10:28:46 <Alberth> Zuu: oh, you missed that part :) http://paste.openttd.org/225753 10:29:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why are the add / remove buttons needed? 10:29:29 <Zuu> Oh ok 10:29:30 <planetmaker> legacy ;-) 10:29:34 <andythenorth> the music window doesn't have add/remove 10:29:41 <andythenorth> the vehicle groups neither 10:29:53 <Zuu> Isn't it the same problem as the only one edit box per window limitation, that we need a way to associate data storage with widgets. 10:30:01 <planetmaker> I agree that they're not strictly needed 10:30:01 <andythenorth> the add/remove looks just like a legacy decision made by whoever invented newgrf 0.x 10:30:06 <Alberth> Zuu: I didn't touch the scrollbars, only the widgets :) 10:30:14 <andythenorth> add/remove is GUI design 1984 style :P 10:30:31 <andythenorth> we're going through all our web apps killing those things thanks to jquery drag and drop 10:30:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth, then you need a trashbin in order to delete files ;-) 10:31:35 <andythenorth> imagine if the depot window was just two lists with 'add' and 'remove' buttons to configure a train consist 10:31:41 <Alberth> rm * is so much quicker 10:32:09 <planetmaker> sudo rm -rf / is even better :-P 10:32:40 <andythenorth> if we kill add/remove *and* up / down in favour of dnd we get an epic win 10:32:53 <Alberth> planetmaker: permission denied :p 10:32:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the up / down is useful 10:33:08 <planetmaker> way more than the add / remove 10:33:21 <andythenorth> ok, so in the depot window....you want < > arrows to set the position of a wagon in a consist? 10:33:24 <Zuu> Indeed, and without proper visual feedback, the drag and drop becomes tricky. 10:33:29 <Ammler> heffer: do you use KDE? 10:33:38 <andythenorth> these buttons are bollocks :) 10:33:43 <planetmaker> simply for the reasons that the drag to a certain position between two arbitrary but distinct newgrf is not quite easy due to the height scale of the lines 10:34:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth, depot is different. Wagons are bigger 10:34:23 <peter1138> ultra realistic 10:34:23 <peter1138> lol 10:36:18 *** cypheryob [cypheryob@82.111.116.232] has joined #openttd 10:36:25 <planetmaker> further, andythenorth: a text button is quite clear what it does. 10:36:38 <planetmaker> A hidden function like drag or double click is not as intuitive. 10:36:39 <andythenorth> no it's not 10:36:45 <andythenorth> what does 'add' do? 10:36:58 <planetmaker> add that thing what is selected, eh? 10:37:05 <andythenorth> which thing, to where? 10:37:08 <planetmaker> counter-question: what does <nothing> do? 10:37:20 <heffer> no. gnome 10:37:47 * andythenorth revisits the depot argument 10:37:54 <andythenorth> yep, depot argument still holds 10:37:58 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0fd0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:38:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: what does 'buy' do in the buy vehicle gui? 10:38:12 <planetmaker> not quite, andythenorth :-) 10:38:59 <andythenorth> Does 'add' get me new content from Bananas? 10:39:06 <planetmaker> you know this game. You know the short way. But a new user is whom has to be targeted with GUI design, who needs to figure out things 10:39:09 <andythenorth> Does 'remove' delete the grf from my filesystem? 10:39:14 <planetmaker> Things need to be made easy for those 10:39:21 <andythenorth> yep, and less stuff == more easy 10:39:33 <andythenorth> remove everything possible, leave only what is needed 10:39:36 <planetmaker> not if you remove the essentials 10:39:59 *** cypheryob [cypheryob@82.111.116.232] has left #openttd [] 10:40:02 <planetmaker> or if you remove things which make proper placement (like putting a grf exactly between two others) arbitrarily difficult. 10:40:11 <Zuu> Visual clues are imho important to show newbies what the gui is intended to do. 10:40:12 <andythenorth> hmm 10:40:28 <planetmaker> e.g. I never adjust grf oder by drag+drop. Simply because the height is too tiny to adjust my mouse properly 10:40:33 <planetmaker> too much hassle 10:40:43 <Zuu> same here 10:40:54 <Zuu> I find moving orders up/down a bit tricky 10:41:00 <planetmaker> I unfortunately don't find the GUI design page I'm looking for which describes these principles so nicely. 10:41:10 <planetmaker> Zuu, yes, good example. A pain 10:41:18 <andythenorth> you don't move newgrf order by drag and drop because you can't :p 10:41:30 <andythenorth> and orders are a pain because drag and drop implementation is broken 10:41:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I could with the old new newgrf gui 10:41:37 <peter1138> you never adjust grf order by drag+drop simply because it's not implemented 10:41:41 <planetmaker> and I hated it there 10:41:46 <planetmaker> peter1138, ^ 10:42:09 <planetmaker> the lines are just too tiny to use drag+drop adjustment of order 10:42:23 <Zuu> [12:33:09] <Zuu> Indeed, and without proper visual feedback, the drag and drop becomes tricky 10:42:30 <andythenorth> alrighty 10:42:51 <planetmaker> hm, yes, Zuu. With feedback it might become quite better 10:43:17 <planetmaker> that's the main cause, you're right, which makes it troublesome 10:43:35 <andythenorth> draggables have to look like draggables 10:43:40 <Alberth> (12:44:25 PM) planetmaker: the lines are just too tiny to use drag+drop adjustment of order <-- so you had to drop between two other grfs? 10:43:59 <andythenorth> orders dragging is completely fucked so please don't use that as an example 10:44:07 <planetmaker> Alberth, when adjusting newgrf order that's something one would like to do, yes 10:44:27 *** yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:44:41 <andythenorth> normally you just split lines in half and drop above or below the split 10:44:44 <Alberth> I'd expect that dargging a grf on top of another one would mean I want the new one at that place, shifting the others down 10:44:53 <andythenorth> you shouldn't need to hit a tiny drag target of the divider, that's dumb 10:45:03 <Alberth> exactly 10:45:32 <planetmaker> Alberth, maybe yes. But it still would help BIG TIME, if the place it will get inserted is highlighted in some way 10:45:35 <Zuu> I would expect that there is a thick line drawn over the divider where it would be inserted. 10:45:40 <planetmaker> like a bold separation line or so 10:45:44 * andythenorth tries some itunes drag and drop (approx same size lines)....hmmm not as good as it should be 10:45:57 * andythenorth remains unconvinced by dnd 10:46:05 <andythenorth> despite arguing strongly about it :P 10:46:11 <planetmaker> like adding bookmarks to firefox 10:46:23 <andythenorth> also, dnd could be TMWFTLB, given the existing code....exists 10:47:22 <andythenorth> So the wording.... 10:47:45 <andythenorth> If we have 'Inactive', 'Active' for the two lists....then we can have 'Activate' and 'Deactivate' for the buttons 10:47:51 <andythenorth> and suddenly it starts to make more sense 10:48:02 * andythenorth stops arguing and starts drawing 10:48:31 <planetmaker> add / remove or activate / de-activate is a detail. The latter might be better wording, agreed 10:48:38 *** luddek [~ludde@h-92-160.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: luddek] 10:49:23 <andythenorth> it matters to me :) 10:49:37 <andythenorth> stuff has to relate correctly, or it's just broken 10:51:06 * Zuu wants a legend in word that allows quick jumping to headlines in his 29-page documnet. - I guess one has to think vim and use search more to navigate. 10:51:07 * andythenorth argues about guis like programmers argue architecture decisions 10:51:38 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/farmtiles.txt <- andythenorth: when do i get a test grf? :p 10:51:44 <planetmaker> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000057.html 10:51:47 * Zuu start thinking about a vba addon. 10:52:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: when the arguing is done (sorry!) :) 10:52:10 <frosch123> :p 10:52:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes yes. which is why I'm trying to solve the problem you describe, not the one that fits my personal taste :P 10:53:34 <Ammler> frosch123: could also be used for a lumbermill industry? 10:53:50 <andythenorth> Ammler: possibly. 10:53:50 <planetmaker> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000063.html <-- that's the exact article I looked for 10:54:05 <planetmaker> dealing with the "pointing accuracy" which you want to require (or not) 10:54:36 <planetmaker> this guy has quite a number of good articles :-) 10:54:46 <frosch123> Ammler: you cannot plant trees, and let the lumbermill cut them. but you can plant tree-looking industry tiles, let them grow, and let them notify the industry when the cut themself. that is they result in no production if the player cuts them for some railroad 10:54:58 <Alberth> planetmaker: he also has a book with them, I found out 10:55:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have three of his books. we buy them for all of our developers :P 10:56:05 <planetmaker> then you agree to the article I linked ;-) 10:56:10 <andythenorth> Joel is practical, but this a better book on GUI design 10:56:10 <andythenorth> http://www.amazon.com/Designing-Obvious-Common-Approach-Application/dp/032145345X 10:56:17 <nighthawkcm> what do your developers develop? 10:56:21 <andythenorth> stuff 10:56:22 <Ammler> frosch123: possible to check, if the tile you plant the industry tile has a tree? 10:56:24 <planetmaker> and that drag+drop without feedback for sorting default text lines in OpenTTD is... a pain 10:56:44 <andythenorth> yes, but only because the drag-and-drop implementation is broken 10:56:52 <andythenorth> and it's probably TMWFTLB to get right 10:56:54 <frosch123> Ammler: yes 10:56:57 <andythenorth> so we'll try the buttons 10:57:12 <Ammler> frosch123: then it is possible to simulate current LumberMill already, isn't? 10:57:14 <frosch123> landscape class of the landinfo of nearby tiles variable 10:57:52 <frosch123> oh, that way. yes, maybe. but i do not know how often farms try to plant fields 10:59:22 * Zuu want to kill VBA for not prefixing their types and not allowing eg. using lower case for vars and upper case for types. 10:59:23 <planetmaker> hm, Rubidium ? Someone probably uploaded stuff to bananas whom he's not the author of 10:59:37 *** ptr_ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 11:00:09 <frosch123> hmm, maybe we should man grfs with grfid "mb"xx 11:00:21 <planetmaker> :-P 11:00:26 * Alberth gives Zuu a big sharp axe 11:00:27 <frosch123> *ban 11:00:36 <Zuu> Thanks 11:00:39 <planetmaker> frosch123, just add a list of md5sums which need exclusion 11:00:51 <Alberth> and auto-ban any user that tries adding them :p 11:00:51 <Zuu> Maybe it was not really all that good for my health to do some VBA coding.. 11:00:53 *** ptr__ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 11:01:09 *** ptr_ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:46 * Alberth is not so sure that having an ill Zuu with a sharp axe is such a good idea :p 11:01:55 <planetmaker> hahaha :-) 11:02:26 <Zuu> hehe 11:02:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: shall I assume 3 vertical scrollbars is a no-no? 11:02:56 <Alberth> unless you generalize the scrollbar code first, indeed it is 11:03:11 <peter1138> openttd can't have 3 vertical scrollbars... yet 11:03:12 <andythenorth> fine fine 11:03:21 <peter1138> i should finish off that patch... 11:03:39 <planetmaker> go go :-) 11:10:38 *** luddek [~ludde@h-92-160.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 11:12:41 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:18:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker frosch123 Alberth http://tt-foundry.com/misc/newgrf_3_panel_640x355_B.png 11:18:15 <andythenorth> there are some changes I'd like to make to that...but... 11:18:24 <andythenorth> what do you think? 11:19:46 <Ammler> why the details on the side and not below? 11:20:45 <Zuu> Actually I like it better at the side than below. You don't want to read that wide lines of text. 11:21:14 <planetmaker> looks fine to me, andythenorth 11:21:27 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 11:21:35 <Ammler> but the grf authors didn't make the descriptions in that respect 11:22:03 <planetmaker> Ammler, they didn't make it for any width or size. So any is fine 11:22:20 <andythenorth> It's a question of priorities. planetmaker wants to compare two lists 11:22:32 <andythenorth> the correct way to compare two lists is side by side, with max possible height for lists 11:22:33 <Ammler> hmm, they made it looking fine for current width 11:22:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that's not an argument against putting the details view below it ;-) 11:22:43 <andythenorth> yes it is 11:22:49 <andythenorth> it wastes vertical height 11:23:22 <planetmaker> you still have 130 pixels ;-) But I like it better this way 11:23:24 <Ammler> Zuu: there aren't wide, because authors added newlines 11:23:36 <planetmaker> so I won't argue against three panels next to eachother 11:23:38 <andythenorth> Also, I have other plans for that side panel.... 11:23:44 <planetmaker> which are? 11:23:56 * Ammler prefers pm's proposal 11:24:25 <Zuu> pm's proposal to not argue against the 3-panel edition? 11:24:46 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.180.232] has joined #openttd 11:24:47 <planetmaker> :-D 11:27:19 <andythenorth> the side panel could also be used for setting newgrf parameters by gui 11:27:20 <andythenorth> etc. 11:27:45 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what was the link to your proposal 11:27:54 <Ammler> Zuu: http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/ottdextens.png <-- I count 2 11:28:06 <Ammler> andythenorth: ^ 11:29:04 <planetmaker> my proposal is not as refined ;-) 11:29:13 *** goblin_ [~goblin@krlh-5f72253a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:29:19 <Zuu> Ammler: so do I on that image, I was just joking with you. pm just said before that he would not argue against the 3-panel edition. 11:29:28 *** goblin_ [~goblin@krlh-5f72253a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:37 <Ammler> Zuu: that is why I did ;-) 11:29:42 <planetmaker> Zuu I can live with either. 11:29:52 <planetmaker> both need a 3rd scrollbar. 11:29:54 <Ammler> well, almost everything is better than current 11:30:20 <planetmaker> pro for mine: wider lists and wider details view. con: higher window 11:30:50 <planetmaker> pro for andy's: smaller window, more space for detail view (I think) 11:30:53 <andythenorth> hmm 11:31:04 <planetmaker> both proposals will fail on some detail views without scrollbar for it 11:31:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yours has more pixel real estate for info 11:31:51 <planetmaker> yes, but the usable amount is not necessarily bigger 11:31:55 <andythenorth> exactly 11:31:59 <andythenorth> it only has about 8 lines 11:32:02 <planetmaker> as the usable amount is some convolution of space and lines 11:32:14 <andythenorth> mine has about 25 lines 11:32:24 <andythenorth> so the horizontal layout forces a lot of waste 11:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrfs could use a more detailed description in their... description 11:32:33 <Zuu> I have to agree that both have their pros and cons, but are still good improvements. 11:32:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not all of those 25 are usable, though, either. Like the md5sum will always eat two or three. 11:33:04 <andythenorth> for the interaction, I have some issues with mine, but I think it's the best way to solve the described problem 11:33:11 <planetmaker> As will others with longer descriptions break lines, too 11:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf description should basically be the same as the description on bananas 11:33:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I kind of think that too. 11:33:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I prefer my solution as it allows easier to integrate both newgrf and AI selection in one window 11:34:11 <andythenorth> my design is currently only 355px high, it would permit significantly long lists 11:34:14 <planetmaker> which would due to the limited width of your lists not be reasonably feasable 11:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> description what the grf does, what parameters are available, link to forum topic, etc. 11:34:33 <planetmaker> yes, Eddi|zuHause we had that :-P 11:35:03 <andythenorth> why would you select AI in the same window? 11:35:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, as both are "extensions" 11:35:43 <planetmaker> when designing a game it makes kinda sense to unify that 11:35:47 <planetmaker> if not - no problem 11:35:59 <planetmaker> more real estate for the names themselves 11:36:11 <planetmaker> or for a possible category tag or so 11:36:24 <planetmaker> all of which is discussed ;-) 11:36:53 *** OwenS [~oshepherd@cpc1-stkn14-2-0-cust562.11-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:39:33 * andythenorth ponders 11:39:54 * frosch123 is quite amused about the tags of the recently uploaded mb grfs :p 11:40:13 <Zuu> what are the tags? 11:40:20 <planetmaker> ^ ? 11:40:48 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 11:40:52 <andythenorth> do we want AI / newgrf all handled in one window? Or panes (like firefox add-ons)? 11:40:58 <frosch123> newstations: new, stations, ttdpatch; newships: new, ships, ttdpatch, blunck :p 11:41:00 <Ammler> Zuu: you see them in the openttd gui 11:41:21 <Ammler> lol 11:41:26 <planetmaker> haha :-) 11:41:26 <Zuu> andythenorth: You probably want to separet them on different tabs or something as they would need slightly different gui. 11:41:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: the idea is to do them in the same kind of window 11:41:33 <andythenorth> sure? 11:41:51 <Zuu> And you do not really want to put a newgrf on an AI slot or the other way around. :-p 11:42:08 <planetmaker> Alberth, then a tab'ed view might make sense 11:42:22 <Ammler> frosch123: is at least the readme in the tar? 11:42:23 <Alberth> it makes no sense at all to me 11:42:33 <planetmaker> :-P 11:42:40 * andythenorth more drawing 11:42:40 <frosch123> did not look, but the description seems to be copied directly 11:42:41 <Alberth> AI and NewGRF are totally different things 11:42:51 <planetmaker> they're both extensions. 11:42:57 <andythenorth> Add-ons? 11:43:01 <planetmaker> both need parameter being set (kinda) 11:43:04 <planetmaker> yes, add-ons 11:43:39 <planetmaker> they're only different from what they impact. But not in the way that they're add-ons (yes, the better word) 11:44:03 <andythenorth> Any other feedback on my last screenie? I think they yellow buttons are too vivid 11:44:15 <andythenorth> Preset drop down menu big enough? 11:44:27 <planetmaker> should be 11:44:30 <Alberth> always, it resizes automagically 11:44:37 <planetmaker> but I still like my wider view ;-) 11:44:45 <andythenorth> I don't dislike it 11:44:48 <planetmaker> not so many cut-off texts 11:44:59 <andythenorth> but imagine you're new to the game.... 11:45:00 <frosch123> oh, TrueBrain is also here 11:45:01 <planetmaker> or, Alberth would it re-size in both views automatically? 11:45:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I might clean up your mockup later 11:45:24 <Alberth> both views? 11:45:24 <planetmaker> IIRC the lhs view of andythenorth's proposal (the current window) doesn't quite scale always 11:45:33 * frosch123 likes highlighting without giving reasons 11:45:42 <planetmaker> Alberth, active and inactive lists 11:45:47 <Zuu> IIRC you set proportions so eg each take 1/3 but it could be something else to. 11:45:56 <Zuu> Eg 2/5, 2/5, 1/5. 11:46:07 <TrueBrain> grr @ frosch123 11:46:27 <frosch123> TrueBrain: do you mind telling me, how to remove content from bananas violating the tos? 11:46:42 <frosch123> rb does not seem to be around 11:46:43 <Alberth> good morning TB, glad you are awake too :) 11:46:51 <TrueBrain> lol 11:46:59 <TrueBrain> send me the entry which is in violation, and the reason :) 11:47:28 <planetmaker> latest two 11:47:31 <andythenorth> hmm 11:47:31 * Alberth gives TB some coffee 11:47:36 <frosch123> the two new newstations and newships, both not uploaded by owner 11:47:40 * andythenorth thinks not all space should always be filled by buttons 11:47:59 <planetmaker> hehe. Automatic button re-size so that there's no space left. 11:48:01 <frosch123> is there an easy way to blacklist uploading of grfs with certain grfid's or md5sums? 11:48:06 <planetmaker> Gives a nice crowded feeling ;-) 11:48:21 <Alberth> andythenorth: the empty space also has widgets, and can also resize 11:49:05 <Alberth> eg the centering of the 'quit' button in the intro screen is done in that way 11:50:22 <TrueBrain> frosch123 / Alberth: you are 100% sure Skiper is not the author? (and I ask you two as planetmaker is not a developer :p) 11:50:43 <frosch123> i am reasonably sure :) 11:50:47 <planetmaker> :-P 11:50:48 * Alberth is clueless 11:51:09 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, hard to be sure, but would you think that mb uploads under a different name than his? 11:51:12 <frosch123> you may blame me, if the upload was my author :) 11:51:21 <TrueBrain> so nobody complained :p 11:52:06 <planetmaker> hehe. Or change the TOS. ;-) 11:52:10 <Alberth> we could pull the entry, and send mb a pm, telling that we did that 11:52:35 *** last_evolution [~last_evol@r5ba58.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 11:52:40 <Alberth> and also telling him that we black-listed his grf (if we are doing that) 11:52:56 <Ammler> why not asking him to upload his stuff? 11:53:10 <Ammler> or if it might be ok, what skiper did 11:53:32 <Alberth> by bananas rules it is not afaik 11:53:42 <Ammler> well, skiper needs to be droped anyway 11:53:45 <frosch123> yeah, ask him we are tired of deleting his stuff, whether he wants to upload them officially? 11:53:52 <Ammler> else others might think, it is 11:54:07 <TrueBrain> we require the original author to upload 11:55:03 <Alberth> well, it does show people like his grfs :) 11:55:51 <Alberth> that may make him change his mind if you ask in the right way 11:56:14 <TrueBrain> so go ask mb 11:57:11 <Alberth> don't look at me, I don't even know what grfs mb has made :p 11:57:20 <TrueBrain> grfs removed, mailed Skiper explaining why 11:57:48 <Alberth> thank you very much 11:58:25 <TrueBrain> but yes, BaNaNaS needs a blacklist system :p 11:58:45 <Ammler> or a moderator system 11:59:02 <TrueBrain> no, voted very much against that 11:59:06 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS has to be maintaince free 11:59:16 <TrueBrain> (ignoring the few TOS violations a year) 11:59:30 <Ammler> well, maintaining blacklist needs moderator too 11:59:36 <TrueBrain> not really 11:59:40 <TrueBrain> just the ones from mb in fact 11:59:49 <TrueBrain> till he changes is mind :) 12:00:09 <Alberth> hardcode them in bananas :p 12:00:10 <frosch123> then just test the grfid for starting with "mb" :p 12:00:18 <TrueBrain> ghehe :) 12:01:03 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is really much bigger than I ever expected it to be 12:01:08 <Ammler> or "fix" the TOS 12:01:15 <TrueBrain> hell no 12:01:16 <Zuu> Hmm or add a field in the grf spec for if it is allowed to be on bananas, given that it is considerable easy to read it from the phyton script. 12:01:18 <TrueBrain> that is the worst idea yet 12:01:31 <TrueBrain> Zuu: ghehe 12:01:32 <frosch123> the very worst :) 12:01:32 <TrueBrain> nice idea :) 12:01:35 <Zuu> s/given/if/ 12:01:51 <TrueBrain> Yexo: concratz on your 100,000 download :p 12:02:34 <Alberth> Zuu: so how long would it be before we get the same grfs with just that single bit different? 12:02:48 <TrueBrain> Alberth: are people that bad?! :( 12:02:53 <TrueBrain> (Sarcasm :p) 12:03:16 <Ammler> well, you need to remove all current grfs as not set means not allowed :-) 12:03:19 <Alberth> I have given up hope on mankind in that respect 12:03:32 <frosch123> Ammler: affecting all md5sums :p 12:03:46 <TrueBrain> easier to make the bit say: not allowed :p 12:04:41 <Zuu> Having allowed as default makes much more sense. 12:04:42 <TrueBrain> Ammler: about your "fix" the TOS idea: mb is completely fully 100% in his right to not upload his GRFs. If he feels he should not do that, it is his right, his freedom. We should learn to respect that, how ever annoying it might be. 12:05:09 <Alberth> we can also add some encrypted data in the grf, and the author must prove he has the original data 12:05:27 <TrueBrain> lets PGP sign grfs :p 12:05:49 <Ammler> TrueBrain: I am quite sure, MB isn't against uploading to bananas, do you know more than me? 12:05:53 <frosch123> just disallow uploading crap older thand 3 years :p 12:05:54 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/newgrf_3_panel_640x390_C.png 12:06:09 <TrueBrain> frosch123: but how to detect that ..... :p 12:06:24 <TrueBrain> Ammler: he might not be against, but he didn't do it either. His freedom, his right 12:06:39 <Ammler> yep, exactly 12:07:18 <Ammler> but it isn't fair to blame MB for what skiper did 12:07:25 <Zuu> andythenorth: At least for AIs I would want a seperate window for the settings or you would need to line break the setting names. 12:07:38 <andythenorth> let me look 12:07:45 <TrueBrain> Ammler: I don't know about you, but I blame Skiper 12:07:47 <andythenorth> I think there is more going on than just this newgrf window 12:08:01 <andythenorth> why do we need 'options, advanced settings, 'difficulty settings' 12:08:16 <Alberth> nobody merged them until today 12:08:17 <andythenorth> all of this seems a bit upside down to me 12:08:41 <andythenorth> I don't mean they are merged :) 12:08:42 <Ammler> merge and make presets :-) 12:08:43 <Alberth> Ammler: I don't see how we blame mb 12:08:44 <andythenorth> I mean why so many? 12:08:50 <Zuu> I think we want to have some difficulty system but maybe have it separeted to where options etc. are located. 12:09:04 <Alberth> (02:10:32 PM) Alberth: nobody merged them until today <-- andythenorth 12:09:45 <TrueBrain> k, gone; have a good day all! 12:09:53 <Alberth> bye TB 12:09:56 <andythenorth> Zuu: I don't see any problem for a separate settings window 12:10:34 <Zuu> Also there was a forum theread with joining setting window suggestions some time ago that eventually died when the poster realized nobody would pickup his ideas and code them for him. 12:10:56 <Alberth> even someone refused? 12:11:07 <andythenorth> So...you only have a grf active once, but multiple instances of an AI can be active....so the AI and newgrf lists are conceptually different....which is fine 12:11:16 <Zuu> andythenorth: Sure, no problem to have a button to open the setting window. 12:11:20 <Zuu> (for ais) 12:11:46 * andythenorth wonders what is the flow for the player thinking "I just want to start a new game" 12:12:00 <andythenorth> most of the suggestions by the forum guy were bloody awful 12:12:32 <andythenorth> ummm 12:13:55 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:10 <andythenorth> are we trying to get a quick improvement of newgrf window.... 12:15:28 <andythenorth> ...or shall we sort out the gui for new players who don't understand all the legacy stuff 12:15:51 <Zuu> a good and valid question 12:15:55 <andythenorth> optimising the newgrf window might be polishing a poo :) 12:16:19 <planetmaker> <frosch123> just disallow uploading crap older thand 3 years :p <--- touch `ls ~/.openttd/data/*.grf` ;-) 12:16:24 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-120-84.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:17:34 <andythenorth> Alberth: are you much interested in improving the whole 'start a game' GUI? 12:17:50 <planetmaker> Zuu, I once started to tackle the merge of options and settings... 12:17:56 <planetmaker> but it proved to be a snake pit 12:18:00 <andythenorth> I ask because we already have a lot of projects going on, there's no point incurring a lot of work-in-progress 12:18:18 <Alberth> not at this time 12:18:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: ottd always improved in small steps 12:18:24 <andythenorth> but I now think that just tweaking newgrf gui is lipstick on a pig 12:18:41 <andythenorth> what is a fricking newgrf anyway? 12:18:51 <andythenorth> I was scared to install one for about 2 years, it looked complicated 12:19:00 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> So...you only have a grf active once, but multiple instances of an AI can be active....so the AI and newgrf lists are conceptually different....which is fine <-- I think that is thinking in programmer's terms. Not user concepts 12:20:16 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> ...or shall we sort out the gui for new players who don't understand all the legacy stuff <-- definitely a good suggestion 12:20:26 <andythenorth> suggestions are easy :P 12:20:33 <planetmaker> yeah :-P 12:21:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the AI point....I think adding AIs is completely different to moving stuff from one list to another. I don't know that they should use the same GUI pattern, that was my thinking 12:21:18 <Ammler> wrote a pm do mb 12:21:26 <andythenorth> was that a haiku 12:21:27 <andythenorth> ? 12:21:35 <planetmaker> I think we talking here all know that suggestions come easy, realization... is something else 12:22:15 <andythenorth> I keep looking at all the buttons and asking 'why?'. Why should I click newgrf settings? What does it mean? What is AI settings? 12:22:30 <andythenorth> Why should I check online content? What do I get? 12:22:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth, if it's about re-thinking "how to start a game", an AI is just as a NewGRF an extension to the default game. Both of which need configuring 12:23:11 <andythenorth> so to start a game....either (A) choose a scenario or (B) start a custom game 12:23:19 <planetmaker> Using any settings on either, newgrf or AI is and advanced thing. Way more advanced than just adding or removing them 12:23:32 <planetmaker> I'm talking about 'custom game' 12:23:42 <planetmaker> Things I have to do (currently) are: 12:23:55 <planetmaker> - check difficulty settings for number of competitors, loan, interests etc 12:24:02 <andythenorth> To start a custom game, the things that matter: map/landscape; add-ons, competitors, difficulty settings 12:24:03 <planetmaker> - checking newgrf settings for proper selection 12:24:14 <planetmaker> - checking AIs adding those which I need 12:24:27 <planetmaker> - checking adv. settings for the crucial ones which cannot be changed in the game 12:24:30 <Alberth> but just sticking to newgrfs, eg my brother had a bad experience with ECS because he didn't load a good set of trains/RVs that is more of a problem for new players than some buttons imho 12:24:34 <planetmaker> which is a LONG lists 12:24:47 <planetmaker> Alberth, agreed 12:24:51 <Zuu> I think it would make sense to collect various settings to a bigger new-game window. A problem though is that in-game you would probably want to access the old separate windows. A possible way to overcome this would be to add the concept of Frames to the GUI code. Eg. some of todays windows would become frames that are included in separate windows and combined in a big new-game window. 12:24:58 <planetmaker> Dependencies would be nice ;-) 12:25:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: agreed 12:25:10 <andythenorth> Zuu: that is a good point. 12:25:21 <andythenorth> but *do* you want to access the old separate windows? 12:25:26 <andythenorth> if there was a better alternative? 12:25:38 <planetmaker> better depends upon what you want to do 12:25:48 <Zuu> Another option would be to show that big new-game window and grey out things you can't do when the game has been started already. 12:25:57 <andythenorth> seems an obvious route 12:26:38 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-66-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:27:05 <planetmaker> indeed 12:27:06 <andythenorth> so planetmaker you started looking at sensible reorganisation of 'Game Options' 'Advanced Settings' 'Difficulty' ? 12:27:16 <planetmaker> yes. But quite some time ago 12:27:35 <planetmaker> IMHO it'd make perfect sense to move the newgrf and AI selection to the new game window 12:27:50 <planetmaker> and some of the options (driving side, town names), too 12:28:07 <planetmaker> or maybe even to the adv. options 12:28:09 <andythenorth> ummm.....how many economy options does the game have? This worries me as I am coding industries 12:28:22 <planetmaker> some ;-) 12:28:35 <Zuu> can NewGrfs read advanced options? 12:28:36 <andythenorth> So there is 'steady', 'fluctuating', 'smooth (on/off)'. How do they all interact? 12:28:50 <Ammler> another pm to peter :-) 12:28:57 <planetmaker> The real difficulty is: what are the essential options (frequently changed) and what are the real "advanced options" which usually are only selected once and not changed often 12:29:03 <planetmaker> Zuu, yes 12:29:07 <planetmaker> at least some 12:29:12 <Zuu> good 12:29:12 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-136-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:29:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 12:29:30 <andythenorth> environment vs. instance 12:29:35 <andythenorth> if that makes any sense 12:30:08 <planetmaker> no. But only because of a parse error / context error here (I don't get you) 12:30:15 <andythenorth> hmmm 12:30:21 <andythenorth> global / local? 12:30:33 <planetmaker> you are talking about what? 12:31:17 <andythenorth> settings...hmmm, hard to find the right explanation 12:31:29 <Ammler> you also need to differ between difficulty levels for setting and gameplay 12:31:35 <andythenorth> .some things change for 'this is my openttd' and some for 'this is my game starting in 1923 with NARS 2' or whatever 12:31:42 <planetmaker> there's one part of the settings which is quite obviously different: the local GUI settings 12:31:49 <andythenorth> it's probably obvious but I'm missing the right terminology :) 12:32:10 <planetmaker> then there's the settings which can be changed only upon game start 12:32:20 <planetmaker> and then there's some which can be changed always 12:32:26 <andythenorth> so the right analogy is 'application vs. document' 12:32:41 <planetmaker> But the latter two... well... not all are really equally important ;-) 12:33:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I don't think. 12:33:31 <planetmaker> Settings once chosen are saved - as default for the next time you configure things 12:33:44 <planetmaker> so all are global so to say 12:34:24 <andythenorth> hmmm 12:34:25 <planetmaker> but if you are already running a game, everything except the gui settings are local to that particular game (document), if one takes that analogy 12:34:33 <andythenorth> I think we understand each other, but lets take some examples 12:34:38 <planetmaker> and then changes are NOT saved to the global config 12:34:48 <andythenorth> Screenshot format? 12:34:54 <planetmaker> GUI setting 12:35:00 <planetmaker> language: GUI setting 12:35:06 <planetmaker> engine pool: game setting 12:35:17 <planetmaker> signal distance: GUI setting 12:35:19 <andythenorth> Savegame format? 12:35:24 <andythenorth> (filename) 12:35:25 <planetmaker> max_trains: game setting 12:35:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, but those are not bothersome 12:36:03 <andythenorth> so basically, everything that is already in Advanced Settings->Interface looks correct 12:36:13 <planetmaker> strictly local settings which may differ from client to client in a MP game are not so many. They're already quite well separated in its own section in the settings 12:36:18 <planetmaker> yes 12:36:24 <andythenorth> And some things in Game Options belong somewhere like that 12:36:31 <planetmaker> yes 12:36:35 <andythenorth> e.g. graphics and sound sets? 12:36:43 <planetmaker> I don't think 12:36:44 <andythenorth> screen resolution? 12:36:55 <planetmaker> That's something which cannot be changed in a running game (base sets) 12:37:07 <planetmaker> screen resolution might work. 12:37:37 <andythenorth> everything in Advanced Settings can be changed during the game? 12:37:42 <planetmaker> no 12:37:54 <Zuu> no, eg #op codes can not be changed in a runnig game. 12:38:09 <planetmaker> neither a number of other settings which would screw newgrfs 12:38:31 <planetmaker> most prominent one is engine pool 12:39:00 <andythenorth> ok 12:39:12 <andythenorth> so same for base graphics / sound? Just don't allow change in running game 12:39:25 <Zuu> So either it is made clear what is possible to change in games using grouping of settings or introducing an icon or not at all. 12:39:37 <andythenorth> Zuu: that's an optimisation :) 12:39:45 <planetmaker> Zuu, things are grayed out, if not possible. It works that way 12:39:51 <andythenorth> if the proper things are in the proper place, we can optimise later :) 12:40:13 <andythenorth> but things are in improper places at the moment. I've been playing the game for years, and I'm often baffled :o 12:40:22 <planetmaker> :-) 12:40:40 <Zuu> sure, can be tweaked at the end. I was though more refering to informing players before they start the game what settings they can't change after the game has started. 12:40:46 <planetmaker> hm, can the adv. settings "eat" drop down menus? 12:40:55 <andythenorth> Zuu: agreed ;) 12:41:21 <andythenorth> Lets kick holes in Difficulty Settings.... 12:41:26 <andythenorth> Max no. competitors? 12:41:38 <planetmaker> Zuu, indeed it might be the best idea to just give them a visual indicator within the normal category scheme 12:41:56 <planetmaker> then at least the categories are not broken by the fact that something can / cannot be changed later in the running game 12:42:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the whole difficulty settings IMHO can go 12:42:14 <andythenorth> it's junk and wastes pixels 12:42:19 <andythenorth> nearly all of it is replicated somewhere else 12:42:30 <planetmaker> it could be integrated in the new game / adv. options dialogue without loss 12:42:48 <planetmaker> but nothing is replicated. It just needs moving 12:42:58 <Zuu> Agreed, though I would like to keep the posibility to globaly say I want an easy, medium or hard game without caring about details. (mostly for newbies) 12:42:59 <planetmaker> none of those things can be set elsewhere 12:43:12 <planetmaker> Zuu, yes. Just one button in the "new game" view 12:43:19 * andythenorth finds that some of the difficulty settings make no difference really 12:43:31 <planetmaker> drop down with "custom / easy / intermediate / difficult" 12:43:39 * planetmaker agrees with andythenorth 12:43:44 <andythenorth> with the default game in temperate, you either run coal first and win, or you don't. 'Difficulty' is irrelevant 12:44:08 <planetmaker> But that's another topic. Let's not mix that :-) 12:44:13 <Zuu> Difficulty affects the default settings for AIs and could possible do that for NewGRFs to if someone adds that. 12:44:27 <planetmaker> Adding / removing single settings to a particular difficulty level is something which can be discussed separately. 12:44:29 <andythenorth> Interest rate is also almost pointless 12:44:41 <Zuu> pm: agreed it can be a separate discussion. 12:44:54 <planetmaker> slope steepness could certainly be a difficulty setting ;-) 12:45:00 <andythenorth> yup....I just wanted to raise the idea of letting some of the original settings go to the bin 12:45:12 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DB3EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:45:14 <planetmaker> ok, back to sorting options and settings: difficulty could be boiled down to one switch 12:45:21 <andythenorth> are we going to document this anywhere? 12:45:27 <planetmaker> and maybe indicate (also) those settings which affect difficulty 12:45:40 <planetmaker> I'll make a copy of this, I guess :-) 12:46:10 <andythenorth> we might need pictures :o 12:46:11 <planetmaker> an indicator like for the "cannot be changed ingame" thing, too 12:46:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, later :-) First the concept 12:46:35 <Zuu> we leave it for you andy to design a clear icon that everyone understands ;-) 12:46:45 <andythenorth> meh.....I was thinking 'concept art' :P 12:47:06 <andythenorth> so 'play heightmap' always confuses me 12:47:29 <andythenorth> I want to 'play game' and 'choose landscape options' 12:47:40 <andythenorth> heightmap in my head goes alongside the random generators 12:47:59 <planetmaker> makes sense 12:48:07 <Zuu> agreed 12:48:27 <planetmaker> What I like, though, is the quick-start option to select a climate and ctrl+click "new game" :-) 12:48:46 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:108b:3cdc:6574:729e] has joined #openttd 12:48:49 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:48:54 <andythenorth> that was well-hidden :o 12:49:03 <planetmaker> very much so, yes :-P 12:49:10 *** Grelouk_ [~Grelouk@93.21.18.195] has joined #openttd 12:49:16 <planetmaker> but then ctrl is the MAGIC key ;-) 12:49:26 <Zuu> Could be a quick start button on the main window when we get more space there with a separate window with just difficulty + climate selection. 12:49:55 <andythenorth> Zuu I think it can be handled differently 12:49:56 <planetmaker> Zuu, then it's not quick anymore, if I need to go through another window 12:50:17 <planetmaker> then I can just press newgame and accept the defaults and say "go" 12:50:54 * andythenorth is envisaging a tab-based window with a 'Go' button always present 12:51:05 <andythenorth> (not a wizard where you have to go through every screen in order) 12:51:05 * planetmaker hmmmms 12:51:20 <Zuu> And having the main settings at the first tab... 12:51:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, sounds quite good for the settings of a new game 12:51:24 <planetmaker> yes 12:51:28 <andythenorth> hmmm 12:51:44 <andythenorth> adding / changing climates is really a no no for openttd? 12:51:47 *** quix [~asdf@cable-static-192-77.eblcom.ch] has joined #openttd 12:51:49 <planetmaker> and the whole current adv. settings could go to a separate "adv. settings" one 12:52:01 <andythenorth> yup 12:52:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not entirely I'd think. But why? 12:52:28 <andythenorth> just thinking in pictures.....considering layouts / organisation 12:52:34 <planetmaker> You can always replace an existing one... 12:52:36 <andythenorth> killing toyland is a no no? 12:52:40 <planetmaker> definitely 12:52:50 <planetmaker> Otherwise I'd have to kill you :-P 12:53:37 <andythenorth> whoever did and redid the advanced settings was smart 12:53:40 <andythenorth> it's good work 12:54:02 <quix> hi everyone! i'd like to include mysql support for saving highscores in my mod. where's the best way to add the needed link options? like "-L/usr/lib64/mysql -lmysqlclient -lz -lcrypt -lnsl -lm -L/usr/lib64 -lssl -lcrypto" 12:54:40 <andythenorth> I think a few Advanced Settings are really difficulty settings....slope steepness etc (as planetmaker said) 12:55:07 <andythenorth> Is max vehicles an advanced setting or difficulty setting do you think? 12:55:14 <Zuu> quix: If it is just for your personal use you could do that in the makefile and/or visual studio project files. 12:55:16 <planetmaker> adv. 12:55:23 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.21.20.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:55:59 <planetmaker> the amount of vehicles doesn't quite affect difficulty. Except if you allow / disallow aircrafts 12:56:19 * andythenorth doesn't make scenarios much....are there any advanced settings that should be restricted in a scenario? 12:56:25 <andythenorth> or in a future goals framework? 12:56:27 <quix> Zuu: ok, i was looking at makefil.in... so there's no clean already prepared way for this? 12:56:49 <glx> pass that to configure 12:56:50 <Zuu> I think so, but it was a half year since I looked in a makefile last. 12:57:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, well... the amount of vehicles available makes certainly sense for a scenario 12:57:11 <Zuu> and it really depends on how you make the Makefile. All Makefiles are not the same. 12:57:18 <planetmaker> But it remains something which can be changed on a running game 12:58:09 * andythenorth wants to be sure to leave the way open for a future goals framework 12:58:14 <planetmaker> In a scenario setting (when loading one) it makes sense to honour all settings saved within that game. 12:58:25 <planetmaker> After all a scenario is just a savegame with another file extension 12:58:38 <quix> glx: i can just pass it to configure? okay, will check... 12:58:53 <planetmaker> So no need to make anything special there. Everything should be in the scenario file, if you choose to load it. 12:58:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker fine for current scenarios, but in a goals framework authors might want to restrict some options? 12:59:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, but every option (except GUI) is saved in a savegame / scenario 12:59:52 <Zuu> all options but the GUI options would imho be disabled in a goal scenario? 12:59:53 <planetmaker> so nothing to bother about. It will then in the future be also with the enhanced scenario scripts 13:00:09 <planetmaker> Zuu, well. Should it? I don't think 13:00:27 <andythenorth> interestingly, if goals become available, the default difficulty easy/medium/hard settings are just instances of a goal 13:00:28 <planetmaker> Any option change is recorded in the savegame. Why would you forbid the player to change options though? 13:01:24 <andythenorth> depends on how we think goals work....and how much personal taste a goal author gets to impose on players 13:01:29 <planetmaker> I think to that end no provision has to be taken. People who want to play a scenario play it with the given settings - or don't 13:01:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, an author can impose everything. But a player can change (nearly) everything 13:02:05 <andythenorth> ok 13:02:07 <planetmaker> except those things which simply cannot once the map is created 13:02:09 <Zuu> Makes sense, or make a cheat to enable changing options. 13:02:16 <planetmaker> I think no difference required 13:02:17 <andythenorth> I think it would be handled same as cheat 13:02:33 <andythenorth> maybe 13:02:36 <planetmaker> well... cheat... yes. what is a cheat? ;-) 13:02:42 <planetmaker> the magic bulldozer? 13:02:56 <planetmaker> aircraft? 13:03:06 <planetmaker> time reset? 13:03:15 *** Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:19 <andythenorth> It's a cheat if an author limits players to 50 vehicles, and they enable 500 :) 13:03:31 <Zuu> Cheats are things that are usefull for developers to test their code/ais/newgrfs etc. 13:03:38 <planetmaker> hm... game start dialogue could use a "starting loan / max loan / starting money" setting ;-) 13:04:25 <Zuu> Hmm, maybe that could be a first step, getting things from the dificulty window to the new game window? 13:04:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the principle difficulty with that is: there is no single difference between scenario and savegame. 13:04:34 <planetmaker> So it's hard to make it a difference 13:04:43 <andythenorth> I'm not too bothered right now 13:04:44 <planetmaker> Zuu, yes, sure 13:05:12 <Zuu> Though it will possible require moving hightmap and some care for scenario editor. But that would be needed anyways for the overall goals. 13:05:56 <planetmaker> :-) 13:06:30 <andythenorth> some of the stuff in advanced settings would be baffling to most players (hmmm....what is the correct % for feeder leg profit anyway? I have no idea) 13:06:47 <andythenorth> some of it is stuff that is not strictly a difficulty setting, but comes up often 13:06:48 <planetmaker> yeah. The default 13:07:29 <andythenorth> I'm about to use the words map/world/landscape interchangeably :) 13:07:52 <andythenorth> Some things might be better belonging to the 'world' settings for a game, even though it could be argued they are advanced settings. 13:08:01 <andythenorth> a slavish consistency can be bad :) 13:08:22 <planetmaker> exactly. That's the snake pit I talked about in the very beginning ;-) 13:09:10 <andythenorth> A lot of the stuff currently in 'advanced settings->economy' would be quite appropriate for 'world' settings 13:09:34 <andythenorth> Hmmm 13:09:39 * andythenorth wants to be systematic 13:10:13 <andythenorth> brb 13:12:19 <Zuu> hmm, looking at the World Generation window. Perhaps you could divide it into landscape options eg. things that affects the landscape generated or you would use a height map instead, and the settings for things that the world generator would plop onto the land. 13:12:37 <Zuu> Using tha division it would be easier to include the opotion to use a height map there. 13:13:03 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable. 13:13:21 <planetmaker> In any case it's getting too many options for a single window. 13:13:31 <planetmaker> So some kind of tab'ed view might indeed come in handy there 13:14:09 <andythenorth> yup, I'm making that assumption 13:14:17 * planetmaker should get accustomed with the current GUI code. 13:14:45 <planetmaker> which will be far easier than a year ago or so 13:14:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so reviewing advanced settings, (using current trunk).... 13:15:19 <andythenorth> *everything* under 'Interface' is fine where it is? 13:15:58 <andythenorth> (i.e. it's not a 'difficulty' type setting) 13:16:38 <planetmaker> yes, IIRC 13:16:59 <planetmaker> the categories of the adv. settings in general make sense 13:17:04 <planetmaker> there's not much to bother with them 13:17:20 <andythenorth> I just want to be systematic about :) 13:17:46 <planetmaker> main thing is cheats / options / new game / difficulty things 13:18:05 <andythenorth> Well first we take the known knowns....then we deal with the known unkowns ;) 13:18:12 <andythenorth> 'Construction'.... 13:18:34 <andythenorth> Some of the 'allow building....' are they really difficulty settings? 13:18:58 <Zuu> why isn't build on slope a difficulty setting? 13:19:19 <andythenorth> I wonder that 13:19:21 <Zuu> Or building road stops on other companies road. 13:19:28 <andythenorth> Same for 'airports never expire' 13:19:29 <planetmaker> Zuu, only the traditional difficulty settings are difficulty settings. 13:19:36 <planetmaker> No non-TTD ones were added. IIRC 13:20:08 <Zuu> yep, for historical reasons none of the new ones has been added to difficulty. 13:20:22 <andythenorth> Yep, but that's what we're talking about changing, right... 13:20:57 <planetmaker> exactly 13:21:23 <andythenorth> Ok. I've made a note about those points 13:21:28 <andythenorth> So 'Vehicles' 13:21:38 <andythenorth> 'Routing' is all fine 13:21:42 <frosch123> how about trashing difficulty settings completely? instead add profiles for advanced settings? 13:22:03 <andythenorth> frosch123: could be the right conclusion.... 13:22:13 <quix> alright, thanks for help! this made it work: 13:22:13 <quix> export CFLAGS='-I/usr/include/mysql' 13:22:13 <quix> export LDFLAGS='-L/usr/lib/mysql -lmysqlclient' 13:22:13 <quix> ./configure 13:22:18 <andythenorth> Is 90' turns a difficulty setting, or a matter of taste? 13:23:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: when 90° turns are allowed, the game is harder as trains may go where they shall not go 13:23:23 <glx> quix: using --CFLAGS and --LDFLAGS without export should work too 13:23:47 <Sacro> frosch123: errm, tautology states a train can always go where it can go 13:23:55 <frosch123> so, no, most settings are no difficulty settings, but rather taste settings 13:24:10 <andythenorth> most are, but some might not be.... 13:24:54 <andythenorth> I am thinking 'difficulty / world' settings I guess. And I am also looking for things that come up a lot as questions 13:24:55 <andythenorth> Autorenew? Comes up a lot in player questions.... 13:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree with adding profiles to advanced settings 13:25:16 <andythenorth> Autorenew on/off seems like a world setting. The exact money / time seems like an advanced setting 13:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but also some settings should get a "difficulty modifier" 13:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause> like 50% for easy, 100% medium, 200% hard 13:25:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: but shall profiles affect all settings, or just a section of settings? 13:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that depends... 13:26:25 <frosch123> e.g. settings cartegories like: interface, world generation, company/client settings, game settings 13:27:00 * andythenorth thinks that settings profiles would overlap somehow with the idea of a goals framework 13:27:11 <andythenorth> (scripted scenarios) 13:27:13 <planetmaker> <frosch123> how about trashing difficulty settings completely? instead add profiles for advanced settings? <-- yes. That's what I think, too 13:27:25 <planetmaker> just adding a difficulty button in the new game menu 13:27:34 <planetmaker> and change the associated settings 13:27:41 <planetmaker> (or skip difficulties at all) 13:28:18 <andythenorth> Maintenance....any of that really a 'difficulty' setting 13:28:29 <planetmaker> breakdowns is 13:29:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, overlapping with goals for settings is no issue 13:29:22 <frosch123> is disabling path signals a difficulty setting? 13:29:25 <planetmaker> besides goals don't exist ;-) 13:29:33 <planetmaker> uh, they can be disabled? 13:29:53 <frosch123> good point, maybe thay cannot :p 13:30:23 <frosch123> anyway, i cannot remember having ever played one of the difficulty profiles 13:33:07 * planetmaker neither 13:33:25 <SmatZ> I remember I played with "Hard" and bankrupted soon 13:33:36 <SmatZ> then I found the power of long-distance air trainsport :-p 13:33:42 <frosch123> :p 13:33:54 <planetmaker> Maybe indeed the easy/intermediate/hard settings could be converted to a settings profile. And then allow user-generated profiles in a 2nd step, too 13:34:17 <andythenorth> that's kind of what I had in mind 13:34:34 <planetmaker> sounds most reasonable. 13:34:39 <planetmaker> And most extensible 13:34:42 <SpComb> download configurations from Bananas! 13:34:43 <andythenorth> then a 'goal' is that + some scripted rules + an optional map / newgrf / AI list 13:34:56 <frosch123> yeah, but the profiles should not set all options to a certain value, but also allow "keep whatever previous value" 13:35:10 * andythenorth thinks it's important that goals are not tied to a specific scenario 13:35:14 <andythenorth> (if they ever exist) 13:35:19 <planetmaker> frosch123, a profile should just set those values which it defines 13:35:29 <frosch123> e.g. while disabling building on slope certainly makes the game harder, it is just annoying 13:36:01 <frosch123> but maybe, some want "hard settings" to be annoying :) 13:36:14 <andythenorth> but the sensible default is 'on' 13:36:21 <andythenorth> so perhaps it can stay in advanced settings 13:36:34 <planetmaker> frosch123, not every thing which affects difficulty would need to be changed ;-) 13:37:05 <andythenorth> Slope steepness for trains 'world' or 'advanced'? 13:37:13 <andythenorth> also weight multiplier 13:37:15 <planetmaker> hm, for a start the current difficulty stuff could just be integrated in the newgame window / adv. settings 13:37:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, definitely advanced 13:37:25 *** quix [~asdf@cable-static-192-77.eblcom.ch] has left #openttd [] 13:37:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: that is why i prefer profiles, which can define values but do not have to. so if someone wants to post a "annoying hard" profile on the forums, he may enforce disabling building on slopes, ... 13:38:18 <frosch123> just.. i cannot imagine a gui where you can define profiles, and which settings they contain 13:39:23 <andythenorth> let's not worry about that 13:39:32 <andythenorth> I can't imagine a gui where you define advanced varaction 2 either 13:39:49 <andythenorth> but I can imagine a flat text file for profiles 13:40:08 <frosch123> yup, that is easy :) 13:40:24 <andythenorth> Railroad car speed limits....World / advanced? 13:40:39 <planetmaker> frosch123, and it's easy to dump all current settings to a file. Then one can delete stuff from a text file 13:40:53 <planetmaker> or - like the download window - make checkboxes which settings need exporting 13:41:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, anything non-terrain is not world ;-) 13:41:25 <planetmaker> train settings definitely are not world settings 13:41:32 <planetmaker> (in my understanding) 13:41:35 <andythenorth> trains don't exist in the world? 13:41:46 <andythenorth> trains are platonic entities? 13:41:51 <planetmaker> then define what a "world" setting constitutes for you 13:42:05 <planetmaker> it's not what you defined above as "map" setting IMHO 13:42:18 <andythenorth> agreed....I'm sort of working it out as I go 13:42:20 <planetmaker> which is terrain, size, climate, ... 13:42:31 <planetmaker> and not an assortment of maybe-used settings 13:42:46 <andythenorth> but also how some things behave that a player might care about and not want to go looking in advanced settings for 13:42:52 <planetmaker> picking out single ones from the current adv. settings makes little sense 13:43:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes. But then that's everytime something else. 13:43:25 <planetmaker> is driving side world / adv setting / or ... ? 13:43:31 <andythenorth> probably a world setting 13:43:33 <andythenorth> it will make sense when I get to the end of the list :) 13:43:44 <planetmaker> I never touch it. I nearly forget about it. But I'm bothered if it's from my default 13:44:02 <andythenorth> and also this argument is part of working out the answer :) 13:44:06 <planetmaker> yeah. But you set it once and never need it again 13:44:14 <planetmaker> so that's the argument to hide it actually 13:44:17 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:44:38 <andythenorth> I change it when I play a UK game, but that doesn't mean everyone will / should 13:44:42 <planetmaker> and a similar argument goes for many settings. Unfortunately 13:45:04 <andythenorth> which is why nearly everything in 'advanced settings' is correct 13:45:17 <andythenorth> I'm just looking for the ones that I might have to try and fit into a gui design for setting up a game 13:45:39 <Zuu> based on my idea to split new game gen in two parts (as a try to make a first small step): http://junctioneer.net/openttd/new_game_gui.png 13:45:58 <Zuu> The upper part would change if you choose Load heightmap. 13:46:14 <andythenorth> Zuu: if you imagined something like that combined with tabs for 'newgrfs', 'competitors' etc 13:46:18 <andythenorth> that is what I have in mind 13:46:41 <Zuu> Me too. I was just trying to figure out what the first step would be in order to go from talk to action. :-) 13:47:23 <planetmaker> yes, me too, similar 13:47:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker I'm just going to keep using 'world' where I mean 'setup new game'. It stops me getting confused with 'setup openttd application settings' 13:47:54 <Zuu> haven't read the back log since I went afi (away from irc) while painting. 13:48:00 <andythenorth> So anything in Advanced->Stations that would belong in 'world' 13:48:01 <andythenorth> ? 13:48:04 <andythenorth> Spread? 13:48:16 <andythenorth> Airport noise limits? 13:48:23 <planetmaker> uhm... your wording is confusing. 13:48:33 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:49:12 <andythenorth> sorry 13:49:19 <frosch123> [15:46] <Zuu> The upper part would change if you choose Load heightmap. <- you also need climate and date for heightmaps :p 13:50:24 <planetmaker> Would it make sense to get rid of the "map edges: manual / automatic"? 13:50:39 <andythenorth> probably 13:50:48 <Zuu> Yep, I'm thinking about greying out all that is not needed for heighmaps. 13:50:54 <planetmaker> I know that it makes a difference, but... 13:50:58 <planetmaker> Zuu, I meant generally 13:51:28 <frosch123> the advanced setting for disallowing terraforming at the border is mainly for compatiblity with older savegames 13:51:29 <andythenorth> Advanced Settings -> Economy.... 13:51:36 <Zuu> I'm not satisified with "world objects", just couldn't come up with something better quickly. 13:51:58 <andythenorth> We can sort the naming out later. 13:52:00 <planetmaker> general settings 13:52:09 <andythenorth> We can't name groups until we know what is in the groups :) 13:52:10 <planetmaker> or properties 13:53:22 <andythenorth> So things that might no belong in advanced settings.... 13:53:26 <andythenorth> town road layouts 13:53:35 <andythenorth> founding towns 13:53:46 <andythenorth> town growth speed 13:53:59 <andythenorth> manual industry construction method 13:54:08 <andythenorth> allow multiple similar industries per town 13:54:12 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 13:54:16 <andythenorth> smooth economy on / off 13:54:20 <andythenorth> inflation on / off 13:56:32 <planetmaker> frosch123, exactly. But as such it could be handled in the background without user visibility 13:58:07 <planetmaker> hm, inflation on/off could be removed, if inflation 0% is accepted 14:01:42 <andythenorth> good point 14:02:02 <andythenorth> oh my, look at the time :o 14:02:07 <andythenorth> I still haven't coded fields 14:02:19 <planetmaker> :-) 14:04:54 * andythenorth finishes looking at advanced settings 14:05:12 <andythenorth> so of the existing difficulty settings 14:06:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker, maybe it's time to sort out terms 14:06:08 <andythenorth> :) 14:06:56 <andythenorth> So player journey is 'start screen' -> 'new game'. Can we call the process 'game setup'? 14:07:17 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-hkibrasgw1-ff1ec000-127.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:09:48 * andythenorth whistles for a bit 14:12:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, 'game setup' sounds fine for that window which is opened by pressing the 'new game' button 14:13:34 <andythenorth> so the known knowns..... 14:13:46 <andythenorth> 'map' or 'landscape' or 'terrain' 14:13:50 <andythenorth> which do you prefer? 14:14:41 <planetmaker> hm. Depends a bit what it comprises 14:14:50 <planetmaker> if it's including #towns and industries: map. 14:15:02 <planetmaker> if only size, climate, shape: landscape 14:15:14 <andythenorth> may or not call include those things 14:15:18 <andythenorth> oops 14:15:24 <andythenorth> may or may not include towns and industries 14:15:35 <andythenorth> so the other knowns.... 14:15:39 <andythenorth> 'newgrfs' 14:16:10 <andythenorth> and then 'competitors' or 'AI' 14:16:16 <andythenorth> which do you prefer? 14:16:40 <planetmaker> let's call the first thing with 'maps' 14:16:59 <planetmaker> then 'newgrfs'. 'AIs' and 'settings' for the advances settings as is 14:18:47 <andythenorth> are you thinking 'advanced settings' would be available in 'game setup'? 14:18:55 <andythenorth> or are you thinking of 'settings' as the 'other stuff' 14:19:45 <planetmaker> I think that the adv. settings could be one tab of the 'game setup'. yes 14:19:57 <planetmaker> it's something I always have to look at when generating a new map 14:20:16 <andythenorth> ok, well keep that thought 14:20:40 <andythenorth> so I think there is one other group of stuff, which could be something like 14:20:42 <andythenorth> 'general' 14:20:43 <planetmaker> but there's IMHO no need to distinguish other settings and adv. settings. All difficulty stuff and some of the options go there, too 14:20:52 <planetmaker> so then there's only one place to change all game relevant settings 14:21:09 <andythenorth> I think advanced settings is totally overwhelming for some items 14:21:09 <planetmaker> only base sets and language and possibly screen size / resolution remain in the options dialogue 14:21:23 <andythenorth> options needs to die :) 14:21:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes. But for a proper game config it's good 14:21:47 <andythenorth> ok. let's just agree what we definitely have 14:22:05 <andythenorth> so: map | newgrfs | AIs | settings 14:22:09 <planetmaker> or, we pick an arbitrary number of settings which fill one tab - call that 'settings' and add another 'adv. settings' with everything 14:22:20 <andythenorth> yes I think there may be something which we just call 'other' or 'settings' 14:22:37 <planetmaker> I think we can agree on those four tabs, yes 14:22:47 <andythenorth> ok 14:23:22 <andythenorth> ok....digression. I intend that the first screen is something as simple as this 14:23:23 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/splash.png 14:23:32 <andythenorth> ignore the layout / graphic design 14:23:42 <andythenorth> the important thing is making it obvious what to do 14:24:24 * andythenorth thinks of two further things that could be removed from the splash.... 14:24:29 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.210] has joined #openttd 14:24:34 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:21 <andythenorth> why do I need to edit advanced settings outside the context of a game or game setup? 14:26:13 <planetmaker> you don't. 14:26:18 <planetmaker> not if it's moved to game setup 14:26:19 <andythenorth> exactly :) 14:26:26 <andythenorth> but Check Online Content is actually needed 14:26:31 <andythenorth> for scenarios etc 14:26:35 <andythenorth> so I can't remove that :o 14:26:49 <planetmaker> well... 14:27:43 <andythenorth> slightly revised :) 14:27:43 <planetmaker> I'd keep the climates. And possibly make them a quick-start button for that climate 14:27:44 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/splash.png 14:27:58 <yorick> andythenorth: that's ugly 14:28:06 <planetmaker> not the point, yorick ;-) 14:28:26 <andythenorth> so when I said 'ignore the layout / graphic design' my internet connection must have lapsed :P 14:28:42 <andythenorth> or I was speaking muppet or swedish chef or something 14:29:00 <yorick> no, but that was already out of my screen 14:29:43 <Zuu> I don't see why the climates should be in the splash. I only think it will be confusing. 14:29:59 <planetmaker> Zuu, the beloved quick start ;-) 14:30:27 <planetmaker> but then I guess I use that mostly when I test things 14:31:03 <planetmaker> Hm... 14:31:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what about adding a "Quickstart" button directly to the main menu. 14:31:36 <planetmaker> It will take a random climate, and some other things also randomized and "go". 14:31:52 <planetmaker> The quickstart thing is quite nice with e.g. FreeOrion 14:32:02 <planetmaker> just click and jump a game 14:32:12 <planetmaker> no nothing required 14:32:34 <planetmaker> then "new game" would be renamed to "configure new game" or similar 14:33:02 <yorick> I'd say "start random game" and "new game" 14:33:03 <planetmaker> And the buttons could all be one row or so 14:33:03 <Zuu> I don't think you need to rename "new game" just put the quick start at the top. 14:33:15 <planetmaker> ok :-) 14:33:36 <planetmaker> uh... much to do we have now :-) 14:34:16 <Zuu> Yep. first document what has been agreed on and work out a plan on which steps to start with. 14:34:32 *** IPG [~chatzilla@daisu.martos.bme.hu] has joined #openttd 14:35:24 <planetmaker> yep 14:35:45 <Zuu> Perhaps see what things can be done independent and what things depend on other things. Eg. quick start can be changed already today. 14:36:17 <andythenorth> I think the climates might return....because Chris Sawyer intended them to be there :P 14:36:41 *** woldemar [~maru@213.178.34.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:42 <Zuu> Maybe we need to keep them as they seem to be the most holy part of the game. 14:36:50 *** IPG [~chatzilla@daisu.martos.bme.hu] has quit [] 14:37:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I've killed 'Game Options' 14:37:22 <andythenorth> and 'Advanced Settings' 14:37:28 <andythenorth> so how do I change the resolution? 14:37:43 <Zuu> Screen options? :-p 14:38:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I think an 'options' dialogue to change the language must remain available from the main menu 14:39:17 <andythenorth> Tis a good point 14:39:35 <Zuu> So a minor options dialog from the main menu with language, resolution, screen size and maybe sound volume. 14:39:37 <planetmaker> and then the base sets used could (should?) remain there, too 14:39:58 <andythenorth> I think they are advanced options 14:40:03 <planetmaker> or are they game options? 14:40:26 <andythenorth> hmm 14:40:27 <Zuu> depends on if "game" refer to the progarm or a game instance that you play. 14:40:33 <Zuu> program options? 14:40:38 <planetmaker> hm. yes 14:40:41 <andythenorth> well they affect everything 14:40:50 <andythenorth> but increasingly players will just see opengfx 14:41:04 <planetmaker> that's why they could remain in the game options. 14:41:08 * planetmaker is undecided 14:41:16 <andythenorth> if they download the game from some d/l service or preinstall....they'll never even know about the original graphics 14:41:30 <planetmaker> probably 14:41:34 <andythenorth> it puts something on the first screen that could go wrong? 14:41:43 <andythenorth> what happens if I have no windows graphics installed? 14:41:48 <planetmaker> half of the current bug reports are by people who use OpenGFX 14:42:05 <andythenorth> if the windows graphics are not available, does the menu show them? 14:42:12 <planetmaker> nothing shows then 14:42:16 <planetmaker> we have no font 14:42:25 <andythenorth> oh :o 14:42:27 <planetmaker> crash boom bang 14:42:33 <andythenorth> hmmm 14:42:53 *** woldemar [~maru@213.178.34.57] has joined #openttd 14:43:19 <andythenorth> and they affect the appearance of all windows....maybe the base graphics set is definitely in a core 'options' window 14:44:08 <andythenorth> I think sound is different. If I had no knowledge of legacy stuff, why would I ever change the sounds to the originals? 14:44:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not to the original. But maybe to "super duper new free yippieh sound set" 14:44:49 <andythenorth> but that's content.... 14:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> idea: one can ctrl+click on a setting to lock it from being changed with the preset (similar to transparency settings) 14:45:02 <planetmaker> nice idea, Eddi|zuHause :-) 14:45:20 <planetmaker> we already have the lock icon for that 14:45:27 <Zuu> I think its a good to keep the base sets togeather and not scatter them. 14:45:37 <andythenorth> for why? 14:45:41 <andythenorth> the sounds / music seem to be analagous to newgrfs, AIs etc 14:45:56 <andythenorth> without base graphics the game is broken 14:46:05 <Zuu> I don't see how selection of base sonud differ from base graphics. 14:46:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not quite. They're not a per-game thing 14:46:19 * andythenorth thinks 14:46:19 <planetmaker> a game does not configure them 14:46:23 <Zuu> if you have no graphics, then OpenTTD don't start. 14:46:28 <Zuu> afik 14:46:29 <planetmaker> it configures settings, AI and newgrf, though 14:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> base sets/language/resolution looks like a good thing to keep separate 14:47:08 <planetmaker> town names and driving side need to be removed from options, though 14:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but the town names should be separated from that 14:47:15 <andythenorth> but nor does a game configure screen shot format, save game name format, mini-map colour, window snap radius 14:47:31 * andythenorth thinks sounds are just 'content' to most players 14:47:35 * andythenorth is often wrong though 14:48:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth, sounds are content... but it's possible to define sound newgrfs. So... 14:48:03 <Zuu> sure but these are the _base_ sounds and therefor they have more in commmon with the _base_ graphics. 14:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imho base sets should be a "set up once and forget about it" job 14:48:29 <andythenorth> In which case they go in Advanced Settings 14:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas newgrfs etc. are a "change for every game" thing 14:48:41 <andythenorth> Advanced Settings -> Sound 14:49:02 <planetmaker> nope :-) base = required for OpenTTD to run. Adv. settings are not required 14:49:10 <andythenorth> ok 14:49:14 <andythenorth> town names look probable for 'map' to me 14:49:16 <planetmaker> It's only so that "no sound" ships with openttd 14:49:47 * Ammler would like to be able to change base sets 14:50:02 <planetmaker> but indeed it's a question, whether not some of the current adv. settings->UI should be moved to another place. Jointly with the remaining current options. 14:50:03 *** Darkdjinn [~Djinn75@c83-252-62-163.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 14:50:08 <Darkdjinn> hello there 14:50:16 <planetmaker> hi 14:50:23 <Darkdjinn> is there any Staff or translation manager online ? 14:50:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker: Agreed 14:50:52 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: Probably, but it is easiest if you just ask your question I think. 14:51:08 <planetmaker> so... splitting adv. settings: (local) GUI stuff and game-specific stuff. 14:51:19 <Darkdjinn> the question i mailed but i can ask as well. its if the team can add Thai language to the game ? 14:51:26 <planetmaker> then the Options view would become a tab'ed view similar to the game setup view 14:51:27 <Zuu> pm: that makes sense 14:51:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker: GUI | Gameplay 14:52:14 <planetmaker> yes. gameplay accessible via the game setup dialogue 14:52:19 <Darkdjinn> and where the fots can be downloaded for other asian languages that i wish to ask to 14:52:20 <planetmaker> and gui via the game options from main menu 14:52:22 <planetmaker> agreed? 14:52:25 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: I see that Thai is already at translator.openttd.org 14:52:29 <andythenorth> and what about in game? 14:52:29 <Terkhen> Darkdjinn: Thai appears in the language list already 14:52:36 <Darkdjinn> hmm 14:52:38 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: http://translator.openttd.org/en/status 14:52:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what if there is one 'advanced settings' window with two tabs? 14:52:58 <Zuu> It is only 36.3% complete though, so if you want to help translating that would be very helpful. 14:53:19 <Darkdjinn> my wife will assist with that in a few days i think so i can maybe help with Thai yes 14:53:27 * andythenorth goes to visit the OS X Preferences.app 14:53:38 <Darkdjinn> but where do i get the fonts for all laguages in use in game ? 14:53:41 <planetmaker> ingame the same thing as the 'game setup' - but the first page might be completely grayed out as it cannot be changed 14:53:44 <Terkhen> Darkdjinn: http://translator.openttd.org/en/faq <-- check this then 14:53:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: screen resolution *can* be changed 14:54:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, but that's not a 'game setup' but an 'option' 14:54:53 <planetmaker> they remain accessible via the 'options menu' ingame - right as now 14:55:01 <planetmaker> no need to prepare anything special there 14:55:06 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: you probably have a font in your system already for asian languages. 14:55:08 <andythenorth> can we represent this as a tree in ascii text? 14:55:09 <andythenorth> paste? 14:55:20 <planetmaker> I guess... 14:55:22 <Zuu> In openttd.cfg you will have to specify a font to use. 14:56:23 <Darkdjinn> anyone who knows where i can download the fonts for OTT to use symbol or laguages that is not aplhpabetic as ariabian or asian languages ? 14:56:39 <Darkdjinn> "alphabetic" 14:57:02 <glx> there's no such thing, you just need to use the fonts available on your computer 14:57:16 <Zuu> Darkdjinn: What operating system do you use? 14:57:21 <Darkdjinn> win xp SP3 14:57:39 <Zuu> Hmm, and why do we not have a wiki article about this? or why am I not finding it by searching for "font"? 14:58:19 <Darkdjinn> agree 14:58:49 <Zuu> http://wiki.openttd.org/Unicode <-- might be of some help 14:58:50 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttd.org/225756 <-- similar to that, andythenorth 14:59:43 <Zuu> IIRC it is the name of the font you set. So eg. open word and find a font that works for you and put that name in openttd.cfg. 15:00:05 <glx> or just let openttd autodetect the right font 15:01:15 <Zuu> planetmaker: looks good 15:01:38 <Darkdjinn> where are the fonts located in OS under winxp ? 15:01:42 <Darkdjinn> windows/fonts ? 15:01:50 <Zuu> yep 15:01:52 <planetmaker> brb 15:02:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: bah you beat me :P 15:02:27 <andythenorth> I had to do chores :| 15:02:28 <Darkdjinn> how do i add the locate in OTT cfg to make it detect there ? 15:03:30 *** Yexo [~Yexo@183-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:03:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm not sure how 'settings' works in your model 15:03:43 <andythenorth> how does it relate to existing 'advanced settings'? 15:03:46 *** Yexo [~Yexo@183-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 15:04:27 <Zuu> Hello Yexo 15:04:30 <andythenorth> also screenshot format and autosave frequency can go into advanced settings 15:04:34 <Yexo> good evening 15:04:38 <andythenorth> hi yorick 15:04:41 <andythenorth> Yexo: sorry 15:04:54 <andythenorth> meh silly auto-complete 15:07:19 <glx> Darkdjinn: you don't need to set anything in openttd.cfg, by default it will try to find a font able to display the chosen language 15:10:55 *** Polygon [~Poly@p54B44996.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:11:51 <Darkdjinn> in which folder shall the fonts be in or ? 15:13:28 <glx> fonts are where windows put them 15:13:33 <Darkdjinn> ok 15:13:46 <glx> openttd just asks windows 15:14:47 <planetmaker> hello Yexo 15:14:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: for a starter I'd add the current adv. settings there 15:14:51 <planetmaker> as a 2nd step it could be split in two: settings and adv. settings 15:15:03 <planetmaker> where 'settings' is a selection of 'important' settings 15:15:13 <planetmaker> But I'm not sure whether that's sensible 15:15:48 <planetmaker> I'd make it a bit like the current adv. settings dialogue, just a bit re-worked 15:15:52 <andythenorth> I was thinking that adv. settings just lives in its own window as now 15:15:53 <planetmaker> possibly with the option for pre-sets 15:16:03 <andythenorth> but I guess it could change 15:16:40 <planetmaker> it could. But that's - opposed to the general change discussed - actually only a detail ;-) 15:16:46 <andythenorth> if players think that to setup a game they go through each tab, then adv. settings hits them with a lot of stuff 15:16:56 <planetmaker> hehe. yes 15:16:58 <andythenorth> so it might want to be hidden behind a click somewhere 15:17:07 <andythenorth> that's why they are 'advanced settings' :) 15:17:31 <planetmaker> well... but either non (then the tab is just 'advanced settings') or it's too many 15:17:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19772 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3818]: the break-on-log-message feature could trigger an assert (Zuu) 15:17:39 <andythenorth> I think there might be a 'general' tab as opposed to 'settings' 15:17:54 <planetmaker> general is the first tab ;-) 15:18:17 <andythenorth> there's a bunch of stuff that are more general than 'map' 15:18:24 <andythenorth> like economy settings, breakdowns etc 15:18:37 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has quit [Quit: Caught signal 15, Terminated] 15:18:44 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 15:18:49 * andythenorth looks at existing 'difficulty' screen 15:18:57 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ 15:19:02 <planetmaker> yes. But if you try to sort it out - you either end up with a separate tab for each - or you just re-use the current adv. settings as is 15:19:58 <andythenorth> nah I misled you there, I'm thinking *most* of adv. settings is fine. It's the stuff in 'difficulty' that needs looking at... 15:20:34 <planetmaker> well. I'd skip that except a button in the settings? map? tab 15:20:43 <planetmaker> and just change the affected things wherever they are 15:20:51 <planetmaker> most should be in the adv. settings anyway 15:20:54 <andythenorth> So 'general' things: loan; interest rate; running costs; breakdowns; subsidy multiplier; economy; disasters 15:21:10 <andythenorth> train reversing *definitely* an advanced thing 15:21:12 <planetmaker> hm. ok. Let's make that the 'settings' 15:21:17 <andythenorth> City council attitude? 15:21:25 <planetmaker> and the current adv. settings keep their name 15:21:31 <andythenorth> yup 15:21:44 <andythenorth> Zuu: how do AIs interact with 'construction speed of competitors' ? 15:22:27 <planetmaker> so: map | newgrf | AI | settings | adv. settings 15:22:32 <planetmaker> hm... 15:23:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'm not quite sure though whether that's sensible. But for a starter that might work with settings and adv. settings 15:23:33 <planetmaker> then the 'settings preset' (aka difficulty) might go to settings, too 15:23:38 <planetmaker> hm... 15:24:51 <andythenorth> adv. settings is a button on the 'settings' tab? 15:24:56 <andythenorth> (suggestion) 15:24:59 <Yexo> <andythenorth> Zuu: how do AIs interact with 'construction speed of competitors' ? <- on "very fast" AIs get a tick every game tick, on "fast" they get a tick every second game tick, on "normal" they get a tick every 4th game tick, etc. 15:25:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: might also work for a starter 15:25:14 <andythenorth> Zuu so the setting still matters? 15:25:31 <Yexo> I'm not Zuu, but yes :p 15:25:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the adv. settings would remain available from the menu in game as now - for convenience 15:26:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but it doesn't quite make sense to distinguish the current options / difficulty / adv. settings things 15:26:19 <planetmaker> they're all the same. Just different names attached 15:26:32 <andythenorth> I know, but we've found we can't consolidate them easily so far 15:26:43 <planetmaker> transitionally that's the way to go, yes 15:26:50 <planetmaker> but only transitionally 15:26:57 <planetmaker> :-) 15:27:15 * planetmaker created a 'gui' repo on the local HDD 15:27:32 <andythenorth> I still think some of the 'options' proposed above are advanced settings or settings. 15:27:35 <andythenorth> like 'drive side' 15:28:13 <planetmaker> yes. Those two 15:28:33 <planetmaker> and we already agreed on that, not? ;-) 15:28:35 <andythenorth> measuring units? 15:28:42 <planetmaker> not sure. It's a GUI thing 15:28:52 <planetmaker> so it belongs there, too, I guess 15:29:07 <planetmaker> But it's part of the (current) adv. settings which actually should go to options :-) 15:29:12 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm just trying to think if there's a way to eliminate a separate 'options' dialog 15:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the units could be advanced settings 15:29:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: no, there isn't 15:29:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it's like language... 15:29:38 <andythenorth> planetmaker you know how the mac can have a monitor resolution menubar widget? 15:29:45 <andythenorth> things like that... 15:30:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there are two different things: user interface --> options 15:30:11 <planetmaker> game affect --> adv. settings 15:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but in a NARS or UKRS game, you might want to use imperial, but with a DBSet game, you might want to use metric? 15:30:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: maybe :-) 15:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: some current advanced settings only affect user interface 15:30:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's how I feel about it....but lets stick to trying to kill the options dialog 15:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> like all in the "interface" section 15:30:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I know. It was an argument to move those to options 15:31:13 <planetmaker> as we plan to move adv. settings into a tab of the 'new game' dialogue. Where those make absolutely no sense 15:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think that is a goal that should be aimed at 15:31:41 <andythenorth> for why? 15:31:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'm with Eddi|zuHause 15:31:55 <andythenorth> :P 15:31:56 <planetmaker> you cannot remove the access to the option "choose language" 15:32:06 <planetmaker> I thought we were already past that? 15:32:13 <planetmaker> discuss that again? 15:32:34 *** dihedral [~dih@znc.noaddedsugar.net] has joined #openttd 15:32:49 <andythenorth> well we agree that resolution, base sets and language don't belong in adv. settings? 15:33:04 <planetmaker> yes. So they're options 15:33:13 <Darkdjinn> where on the website can i see which languages is not 100 % translated ? 15:33:14 <andythenorth> why did we agree they aren't adv. settings? 15:33:30 <planetmaker> And things like "savegame date format" is one of those, too. As it's nothing which deals with 'new game settings' 15:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Darkdjinn: under translator.openttd.org 15:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> as the topic clearly says ;) 15:33:46 <Yexo> Darkdjinn: http://translator.openttd.org/en/status 15:33:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: anything which does not affect the game is by this definition part of options 15:34:08 <planetmaker> which is much of the current interface section of the adv. settings 15:34:14 <Darkdjinn> alright 15:34:16 <andythenorth> ok that might be the leap we need to make 15:34:24 <andythenorth> so I hadn't quite made that leap yet 15:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you mean "game mechanics" 15:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> of course also interface settings affect the game... 15:34:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. But you just told me that "measurement units" should be part of that :-P 15:35:18 <Darkdjinn> is there a list of those 2161 words that need to be translated ? 15:35:32 <Darkdjinn> from thai that is 15:35:59 <planetmaker> if you log into the webtranslator: yes 15:36:02 <Darkdjinn> okey 15:36:06 <Darkdjinn> i will make account first 15:36:09 <planetmaker> or download the source 15:36:17 <planetmaker> web translator is recommended, though 15:37:06 * andythenorth wonders if we can get to just one 'options' dialog and one 'game settings' dialog 15:37:13 <andythenorth> adv. settings being split between the two 15:37:20 <andythenorth> or maybe that's bad 15:37:41 <andythenorth> no it's good 15:38:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is this roughly what you're thinking.... 15:38:47 <Darkdjinn> there now that is complete 15:39:19 <andythenorth> combine options into adv. settings (adding tree nodes for 'base sets', 'language' etc.) 15:39:30 <andythenorth> nah 15:39:35 <andythenorth> they're not advanced 15:39:37 * andythenorth has a think 15:40:32 <andythenorth> If adv. settings was 'Preferences' that would do it 15:41:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not quite what I'm thinking 15:41:56 <Darkdjinn> ??? 15:41:58 <planetmaker> I'm thinking of keeping two: the 'game settings' and the 'game options' 15:42:03 <Darkdjinn> brb 15:42:06 *** Darkdjinn [~Djinn75@c83-252-62-163.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: -=SysReset 2.55=-] 15:42:18 <andythenorth> but no third dialog...? 15:42:26 <planetmaker> no. why three? 15:42:44 <planetmaker> there's some settings in the game creation 15:42:47 <andythenorth> don't worry about it. I don't want three....it's just a question of agreeing some names I think 15:42:49 <planetmaker> and there's the options from the main menu 15:43:07 <andythenorth> and adv. settings? 15:43:34 <planetmaker> that's sub-summed under settings. Those which affect the game behaviour. Those which are saved with a game 15:43:37 <planetmaker> with a map 15:43:58 <planetmaker> basically everything saved in a .sav file needs to be in the (adv.) settings. 15:44:02 <andythenorth> that distinction makes sense 15:44:12 <andythenorth> from an implementation perspective 15:44:13 <Rubidium> planetmaker: where? What? 15:44:26 <planetmaker> Whether they're now in a tab directly or accessible via a button there 15:44:32 <planetmaker> Rubidium: ? 15:44:37 <Rubidium> oh, think TB already handled it 15:44:44 <planetmaker> ah, yes 15:45:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the implementation side has not to be changed. We only talk GUI 15:45:16 <planetmaker> the backend may (and should!) stay as it is. 15:45:54 <andythenorth> ok lets test.... 15:46:03 <andythenorth> so I want to change screen resolution... 15:46:09 <andythenorth> from in game... 15:47:37 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 15:49:54 *** Darkdjinn [~Djinn75@c83-252-62-163.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 15:49:57 <Darkdjinn> back 15:50:05 <Darkdjinn> ?????? 15:50:17 <Darkdjinn> funny thai does not work in IRC :) 15:50:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: as usual you use the options dialogue 15:50:31 <planetmaker> nothing changes 15:51:13 <glx> Darkdjinn: it does if your client is set properly 15:51:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker so I'm in game....I want to change the function of the scroll wheel.... 15:52:05 <planetmaker> go to options 15:52:06 <frosch123> àž«àž§àž±àžàžàžµ Darkdjinn :) 15:52:25 <planetmaker> Ù٠سÙØ«Ù 15:52:27 <frosch123> (mind i just got that from some random dictionary) 15:52:42 <glx> planetmaker: fail it's not thai 15:52:47 <planetmaker> mind that I don't know what I wrote - and that's arabic ;-) 15:53:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm in game....I want to change window snap radius? 15:53:10 <planetmaker> options 15:53:45 <planetmaker> there's just two dialogues: game settings and options 15:54:00 <planetmaker> game setting creates the game (and remains available ingame with grayed out stuff) 15:54:07 <andythenorth> yay 15:54:08 <planetmaker> and options - which will also remain available ingame 15:54:25 <andythenorth> so quite a lot of current adv. settings gets moved to 'options'? 15:54:50 <planetmaker> but the options is directly availabe from openttd main menu while the game settings are what you get by clicking 'new game' 15:54:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. all GUI stuff 15:55:18 <andythenorth> ok 15:55:23 <andythenorth> I think we're clear on that 15:55:27 <planetmaker> everything which is really local to _you_ - and not to your game ;-) 15:55:47 <andythenorth> 'options' is the equivalent of 'OpenTTD preferences' 15:56:35 <planetmaker> I guess so :-) 15:56:41 <planetmaker> Could even be called that way then 15:56:50 <andythenorth> it would make sense to mac users :P 15:56:54 <andythenorth> if there are any left 15:57:17 <Darkdjinn> funny 15:58:06 <frosch123> Darkdjinn: you have to set you client to utf-8. then you can enter text or copy&paste as you wish 15:59:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19773 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] AIIndustry::GetIndustryID(TileIndex) 15:59:48 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9853.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:00:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/splash.png 16:01:27 <planetmaker> yeah 16:02:48 <Darkdjinn> ???????????????????????????????? 16:02:57 <Darkdjinn> ?????? 16:03:07 <Darkdjinn> hmm 16:03:23 <Darkdjinn> i think IRC is not supporting real thai font only some 16:03:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: afk 16:03:36 <andythenorth> working on something though 16:06:02 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.147.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:10:23 *** lewymati [~lewymati@89.230.159.206] has joined #openttd 16:11:57 *** fjb is now known as Guest341 16:11:58 *** fjb [~frank@p5485C433.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:14:26 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has joined #openttd 16:14:44 <Zuu> Oh Yexo has entered a NoAI mode :-) 16:15:07 <Zuu> Two nice commits. 16:15:31 <Yexo> thanks for the patch :) 16:15:59 <Zuu> :-) 16:16:14 <Yexo> AITile.IsIndustryTile <- you can implement that now as AIIndustry::IsValidIndustry(AIIndustry.GetIndustryID(tile)) 16:17:36 <Zuu> Yep, and you can store the id and llocation of an industry to detect if it has been closed down or not. 16:18:14 <Yexo> it'd be better to rely on the events for that 16:18:43 *** Guest341 [~frank@p5485E1EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:18:59 <Zuu> Probably, unless they somehow get lost. 16:19:41 <Zuu> But by default, the events are better, then if a connection do not make profit, you could manualy check if the intustry remains. 16:20:09 <Yexo> yep 16:22:23 <Zuu> I was thinking about (yesterday) if it would be possible that the API could give some more information regarding if other players use an industry or not. There is the function to get number of adjacent stations, but it would be quite expansive to filter out your own stations from that number. 16:23:03 <Zuu> The purpose of this information would be to implement a setting to make the AI not compete about industries used by other players. 16:23:31 <Yexo> basically that would be FS#2776 (more information about other companies) combined with a function to get all accepted cargoes for a station 16:24:02 <Yexo> if you don't want to compete at all you could check % transported > 0 16:24:07 *** Darkdjinn [~Djinn75@c83-252-62-163.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: -=SysReset 2.55=-] 16:24:35 <Zuu> That works with a month delay or so. 16:25:11 <Zuu> I will probably do that for now. 16:25:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker: there would be no reason to not shortcut to 'game settings' tabs like this: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/in_game_menu.png 16:26:51 <planetmaker> I have to agree, that would be feasable and probably even desirable. 16:27:17 <planetmaker> But your screenshot shows: there's yet another place of things which could go into one of 'gameplay settings' or 'openttd preferences' ;-) 16:27:24 <andythenorth> makes me think that there is something weird going on with how transparency is arranged in that menu....but that's for another day 16:27:26 <planetmaker> (or transparancy options) 16:27:49 <planetmaker> :-) 16:28:15 <Zuu> CluelessPLus use "(production - transported) * income per unit" to evaluate new connections, so even without the transported > 0 condition it will not find sources with high ratio transported interesting. 16:28:21 <Yexo> andythenorth: how about removing all *displayed and transparant* from that dropdown and move them to the transparency options window? 16:28:21 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.10.83.181] has joined #openttd 16:28:30 <andythenorth> Yexo: I considered it 16:28:57 <andythenorth> me and planetmaker have started a project of rearranging settings....but I think transparency can be safely left out of that for today :) 16:29:21 <Yexo> Zuu: a coal mine that produces 2000 items per month but has 50% transported is less interesting then a coal mine that produces 1000 items per month where nothing is transported 16:30:13 <Zuu> Hmm, you could fix that by multiplying "transported" by a factor > 1. 16:31:04 <Zuu> That factor could be labeled "resistance against competeing" and I get yet another AI setting :-) 16:32:07 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so now I'm back where I started the day, looking at a newgrf gui mockup :) 16:32:25 <andythenorth> but I might stop and look at some nfo for fields before frosch123 disappears from irc :) 16:32:26 <Zuu> And you haven't made the field grf yet? ;-) 16:36:12 *** nighthawkcm [~nighthawk@pD950557B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:39:51 <andythenorth> frosch123: so do I need to enable cb 0x155 with industry prop 21 or 22? 16:39:59 <andythenorth> I am reading the code, but out of my depth :) 16:46:50 <frosch123> you have to specify to industry to plant fields 16:47:05 <andythenorth> fine 16:47:16 <andythenorth> and then handle cb 0x155 16:47:17 <frosch123> somewhere in the industry behaviour flags 16:47:27 <frosch123> the callback itself does not need activation 16:48:56 <andythenorth> so cb 0x155 is 9Bh when I check it? Or am I being dumb? 16:48:58 *** Grelouk_ [~Grelouk@93.21.18.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:52:01 <frosch123> 0x155 is already hex 16:52:12 * andythenorth facepalms 16:52:54 <planetmaker> ha. Drive side and town names moved to game creation dialogue :-9 16:53:33 *** Polygon [~Poly@p54B44996.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:53:57 <andythenorth> ach, lets see if I can blow up the game 16:54:25 <Yexo> planetmaker: I think it's possible to change the drive side as long as no (road?) vehicles have been build 16:54:41 <planetmaker> Yexo: I guess so 16:55:02 <planetmaker> Still it makes sense to move it away from the options to the game creation dialogue 16:55:30 <Zuu> the game creation dialogue will be accesible from inside the game if they haven't changed that in the proposal when I've been away. 16:55:35 <andythenorth> nope 16:55:41 <andythenorth> call it 'game setup' or 'game settings' 16:55:50 <andythenorth> and it has tabbed panes 16:55:58 <Yexo> ah, then it does make sense indeed 16:55:59 <planetmaker> andy but not yet :-) 16:56:09 <planetmaker> but that's the goal, yes 16:56:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: obv. not :) 16:56:41 <Zuu> Do you plan to set up a project space at eg dev.openttdcoop org or something and collect the ideas there? 16:56:54 * andythenorth crosses fingers 16:57:29 <planetmaker> probably a good idea, Zuu :-) 16:58:47 <planetmaker> 9 hours of discussion shouldn't just go to the waste bin ;-) 16:59:57 * andythenorth wishes his compile would go faster 17:00:01 <andythenorth> yay 17:01:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: well I managed to prevent any fields getting built at all :P 17:01:30 <frosch123> great :) 17:01:42 <frosch123> what did you try? :p 17:02:38 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://paste.openttd.org/225758 17:02:59 <andythenorth> I can work through some debugging myself, I've probably made silly errors 17:03:48 <andythenorth> lots of them 17:04:30 <frosch123> doesn't nforenum complain about the first sprite? 17:05:19 <frosch123> there is no industry id after the 89, and there is no callback result 0x8000 17:05:36 <andythenorth> all of those things :) 17:05:42 <andythenorth> get complained about 17:05:49 <andythenorth> I am fixing them 17:10:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: do I need to set tile prop 08 to 0xFE to have this work? 17:10:17 <andythenorth> spec implies yes... 17:11:01 <frosch123> yes, you need to 17:11:27 <frosch123> and you also cannot use that tile in a regular industry layout then 17:11:32 <andythenorth> ah 17:11:33 <andythenorth> oj 17:11:34 <andythenorth> ok 17:18:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: the game thinks this is invalid action 0 17:18:16 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttd.org/225759 17:18:56 <frosch123> what does it say? 17:19:43 <andythenorth> hmm 17:19:49 <andythenorth> I must have done something wrong and then fixed it 17:19:59 <andythenorth> I have an advance :) 17:20:58 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:21:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fields.png 17:21:57 <andythenorth> having an action 3 for the tile might help :) 17:21:59 <frosch123> :p 17:22:14 <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, armageddon! 17:24:27 * andythenorth just found an easy way to simulate grain elevators :P 17:24:28 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fields_2.png 17:24:32 <andythenorth> might be overkill though 17:25:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ 17:25:41 <frosch123> are they player destroyable? does the game crash when you remove the industry? 17:26:45 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fields_3.png 17:26:58 <andythenorth> they are player destroyable :) 17:27:05 <frosch123> :p 17:27:24 <andythenorth> and the game crashes when I removed the industry 17:27:32 <frosch123> :( 17:27:35 <andythenorth> want a crash log? Or would you prefer the grf? 17:27:42 <frosch123> i guess the grf 17:28:00 <andythenorth> I've hacked it together, the fault could be mine 17:28:14 <andythenorth> do you have a FIRS checkout? I could give you a diff 17:28:26 <frosch123> sure i have a firs checkout :) 17:28:33 * andythenorth wonders how to diff 17:28:42 <frosch123> hg diff >bla.diff 17:31:05 <ccfreak2k> Fields of bulldozers. 17:31:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fields.zip 17:31:43 <andythenorth> the diff might freak out due to an uncommitted change in a graphics file, so I included the grf 17:33:56 <andythenorth> interestingly the tiles are building foundations on slopes 17:34:04 <andythenorth> and I just got an assert from the minimap 17:34:28 <planetmaker> lol @ founations on fields :-) 17:34:52 <frosch123> actually fields on foundations :p 17:35:31 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 17:35:37 <planetmaker> is good for rice fields ;-) 17:36:30 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@ti0068a380-2979.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 17:37:48 * andythenorth waits for frosch123 to point out obvious nfo mistakes :( 17:38:47 <frosch123> well, the crashes are my fault :) 17:39:03 <frosch123> but you could test the animation control callback to remove tiles on their own 17:43:54 <frosch123> i guess stay away from the smallmap for now :p 17:44:29 * andythenorth codes for cb 25 17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19774 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed) 17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 33 changes by Hadez 17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by junho2813 17:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: portuguese - 3 changes by JayCity 17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 24 changes by Lone_Wolf 17:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: slovenian - 3 changes by ntadej 17:46:05 <frosch123> oh well, i guess there is a lot of work left :s 17:46:32 *** fjb [~frank@p5485C433.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:33 <andythenorth> worth it though :) 17:50:54 <planetmaker> I'm just beaten with blindness. Where are the strings displayed in the adv. settings associated with an entry? 17:54:05 <Yexo> table/settings.h 17:55:22 <planetmaker> ah.... right :-) Thanks 17:56:42 <__ln__> who wants to commit a critical patch related to full english breakfast? 18:00:56 <SmatZ> mmm bacon and eggs 18:01:09 <yorick> no grf sprite(except real sprites) can actually contain decimal data, right? 18:01:33 <frosch123> is it a then/than, safe/save or sucessfull/successful patch? 18:01:47 <__ln__> the former 18:02:20 <__ln__> voilà : http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/then-than-2010.diff 18:02:21 <yorick> nvm afk 18:02:25 <frosch123> yorick: there are escapes, and strings, and .. 18:03:11 <SmatZ> only 6 occurences? 18:03:51 <__ln__> *occurrence 18:03:55 * andythenorth wonders how long this will take to blow up 18:04:28 <__ln__> yes, well, it may not cover all wrong thens. 18:04:29 <andythenorth> hmm 18:04:34 <andythenorth> longer than I though 18:04:34 <andythenorth> t 18:06:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: the land info tool exciting reports the tiles as 'arable farm (under construction)' 18:07:24 <frosch123> hmm, what should it report there? 18:07:34 <frosch123> houses have a description callback 18:08:19 <andythenorth> default game reports 'Fields' 18:08:28 <andythenorth> perhaps Fields (for INDUSTRY NAME) 18:08:41 <frosch123> but that fails once you plant other stuff than fields :) 18:09:13 <andythenorth> ok so maybe the cb for description then 18:09:55 <andythenorth> hmmm 18:10:02 <andythenorth> I don't have to enable cb 25 for tiles do I? 18:10:09 <andythenorth> can't see any spec saying I do 18:10:44 <frosch123> Triggers for callback 25 (11) <- property 11 18:11:04 <andythenorth> ah prop 11 :) 18:11:20 <frosch123> only bit 0 and 1 are available for fields 18:11:37 <frosch123> that is, fields can only trigger themself, and are not triggered by the industry 18:13:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19775 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: improper use of 'then' in few comments (ln) 18:15:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: trying to close fields neither blows up nor acts as expected :| 18:15:54 <frosch123> :( 18:17:07 <frosch123> hmm, maybe i patched the wrong function :p 18:17:34 <andythenorth> maybe I wrote the wrong nfo 18:17:48 <frosch123> yeah, i patched cb 26, not 25 18:18:23 <frosch123> i guess both would make sense 18:19:17 * andythenorth tests cb 26 18:21:03 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/customisablefarmtiles.diff http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/farmtiles.txt <- updated 18:21:19 <frosch123> now both cb 25 and 26 should work, but the value was changed from fd to fc 18:21:32 <frosch123> however, stay away from minimap, and do not close industries :p 18:24:46 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 18:27:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: fieldss removing themselves now seems to work 18:28:55 *** fjb [~frank@p5485C433.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:29:05 * andythenorth thinks this will work for forests as well....there's plenty of animation control available to make it interesting 18:29:08 <frosch123> so, at least some stuff works :) 18:29:16 <andythenorth> want an updated grf? 18:30:35 <frosch123> yup, i guess then i can debug the rest over the week :s 18:30:50 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fields.zip 18:30:51 <frosch123> diff is enough 18:31:08 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-159-196.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 18:31:09 <andythenorth> diff included ^ 18:34:52 <frosch123> lots of houses are planted and then razed again :p 18:35:53 *** Chillosophy [~fu@195-241-120-76.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 18:36:11 <andythenorth> it's quite brutal :) 18:38:16 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9853.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:38:17 <planetmaker> lol :-) 18:38:27 <planetmaker> killing fields in a new meaning ,eh? 18:38:51 <planetmaker> and that in a peaceful game like this 18:39:59 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 18:47:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: what results will field tiles get in resp. of tile var 43? 18:48:41 <frosch123> 0xFFFFFFFF if the industry no longer exists, else the usual value 18:49:13 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:49:48 <andythenorth> so signed (for negative x or y)? 18:51:01 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:51:45 <Ammler> wow, what a huge description field on the new window :-) 18:52:58 <Yexo> could be useful for setting parameters with http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/StaticGRFInfo.txt 18:55:24 *** JostVice [~jostvice@85.136.129.22.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #openttd [] 18:55:36 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:55:47 *** JostVice [~jostvice@85.136.129.22.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 18:55:54 <andythenorth> kogut just posted the equivalent of planetmaker's suggestion 18:57:27 <Ammler> well, it also depends how the window behaves on resize 18:58:49 <frosch123> wow, the new gui looks quite nice! (wrt. whitespace, label colours and such) 19:03:57 <Alberth> Ammler: both lists get about 1/2 of the vertical extra space 19:05:11 <planetmaker> http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/bildscvuv.png <-- andythenorth 19:05:13 <frosch123> hmm, i guess there is a way to detect how many parameters are used by a newgrf. so we could display one parameter per row, and allow editing them separately 19:05:35 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'm not so sure about that assumption... 19:05:58 <frosch123> i thought about checking for actiond which assign only if not yet assigned 19:06:20 <Yexo> that doesn't detect those parameters where 0 is the default value 19:06:48 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.203] has joined #openttd 19:07:23 <frosch123> hmm, ok, maybe it is too much effort then 19:07:43 <Alberth> planetmaker: you are going for a 2 screen wide gui? :p 19:08:05 <planetmaker> Alberth: it's not meant to be one window. But to show changes to both at the same time 19:08:15 <Alberth> phew :) 19:08:18 <planetmaker> (driving side + town names got moved there from options) 19:08:52 <Zuu> planetmaker: If you plan to start doing small movements like this, perhaps do some kind of grouping like the image I posted before. It will of course be re-made later with the tab-views but so we don't have a total mess untill then. :-) 19:09:15 <planetmaker> and let's state: yes, GUI changes are easier than before your changes, Alberth :-) 19:09:46 <Zuu> You could to make it easy, just put things like drive side below the landscape stuff. 19:09:54 <planetmaker> Zuu: that will need doing, yes 19:10:04 <planetmaker> But IMHO the next step would rather be to add a tab thingy 19:10:17 <Zuu> Ok 19:10:30 <planetmaker> One row of buttons doesn't kill it. 19:10:41 <planetmaker> But it's one place less for real game options. 19:10:54 <planetmaker> So this is - IMHO - a good change even without anything else following ;-) 19:11:06 <Zuu> Yep 19:11:26 *** lewymati [~lewymati@89.230.159.206] has quit [] 19:12:02 <planetmaker> but adding more to the window would kill the game start window, I'm with you there :-) 19:12:12 <frosch123> looking at difficulties: initial loan, inflation, running cost, breakdowns, subsidy multiplier, construction cost, recessions, train reversing, disasters and city tolerance are left. all into advanced settings? 19:12:18 <Zuu> If you plan to incoperate the NewGRF + AI stuff from start, we might concider implementing frames so that the NewGRF Setting window class type can change into Frame and then that frame is included in the world gen window. This way not *everything* has to go in the same class. 19:12:36 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes. 19:12:44 <planetmaker> except maybe disasters 19:13:04 <frosch123> where would you put disasters then? :p 19:13:12 <planetmaker> the world generation :-P 19:13:13 <Zuu> Though, I don't know what the devs opinion is on that, but I would probably try to not cramp everything in the same class. 19:13:48 <planetmaker> frosch123: for a starter I'd actually add them to the 2nd tab of the world generation window 19:14:06 <frosch123> Zuu: imo putting everything in one window is a bad idea. too much complexity for the neebie 19:14:06 <planetmaker> (which would then mimic the difficulty settings and offer a button to open the adv. settings 19:14:24 <andythenorth> everyone is always so concerned about the newbie :) 19:14:25 <Zuu> frosch123: The window will have tabs. 19:14:26 <andythenorth> rightly so 19:14:27 <planetmaker> then, next, most would be moved to adv. settings and some selected, often used ones added there 19:14:34 <planetmaker> for quick access 19:14:40 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable? 19:14:41 *** ajmiles2 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:14:47 <frosch123> planetmaker: what qualifies them to get their own window? imo they fit perfectly between the other advanced settings 19:15:07 <planetmaker> yes, they do :-) 19:15:43 *** ptr__ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ptr__] 19:15:52 <planetmaker> I guess a settings tab could copy those settings which cannot be changed on a running game 19:15:52 <frosch123> what is the difference between initial load, inflation and "no inflation" on the other side. breakdowns vs. realistic acceleration, recession vs. smooth economy, train reversing vs. 90 degree turns, city tolerance vs. airport noise? 19:15:59 <planetmaker> so that they're reviewed before starting 19:16:21 <planetmaker> hehe :-) 19:16:39 <planetmaker> frosch123: you could alternatively read the logs of this channel since about 10am :-P 19:16:48 <frosch123> hmm, why can't you change intial loan in game? 19:16:51 <planetmaker> yes: there's no difference 19:17:10 <frosch123> same about interest 19:17:12 <planetmaker> that's one of the reasons we want to get rid of difficulty settings 19:17:16 <Rubidium> frosch123: what's the point in changing the initial loan? 19:17:17 <Zuu> frosch123: The world gen dialog will be accesible from in game, with the settings that can't be changed grayed out. 19:17:23 <planetmaker> Rubidium: difficulty 19:17:37 <Rubidium> planetmaker: really? 19:17:50 <frosch123> Rubidium: rename it to "maximum loan" 19:17:58 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes. With more loan I can borrow more and build a bigger more profitable route from the start. 19:18:00 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's looking good 19:18:14 <Rubidium> yeah, okay... you're right... finding the maximum loan and increasing your loan is more difficult 19:18:19 <andythenorth> but I think when you start trying to fit in height map stuff as well, you'll find you want that screen for 'other' 19:18:25 <andythenorth> or 'gameplay settings' :) 19:18:33 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that's not the initial loan, but the initial MAXIMUM loan 19:18:48 <frosch123> [21:17] <Zuu> frosch123: The world gen dialog will be accesible from in game, with the settings that can't be changed grayed out. <- that is were you can pm contratict the discussion of the day. you remove the stupid difficulty window, but create a new window? 19:18:58 <Ammler> hmm, I have a silly gui request: Might it be possible to move the close "X" to the right edge? 19:19:24 <andythenorth> no 19:19:26 <Rubidium> Ammler: use Arabic or Hebrew 19:19:33 <planetmaker> frosch123: not quite 19:19:33 <Vornicus> I think there's enough buttons on the right already. 19:19:42 <Ammler> is there a WM, which has that on the left? 19:19:50 <Vornicus> OSX 19:19:50 <peter1138> ubuntu's latest 19:19:52 <frosch123> Ammler: just switch to a rtl language 19:19:53 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:19:56 <planetmaker> we want to move everything you need to consider to the window(s) behind the 'new game' button 19:20:01 <planetmaker> thus: a tab'ed window 19:20:06 <frosch123> oh, damn, rb said the same :p 19:20:07 <peter1138> windows 3.1 19:20:07 <planetmaker> one tab needs to be settings 19:20:12 <Ammler> stupid OSX :-) 19:20:26 <Vornicus> (but OSX also puts minimize and maximize over on the left) 19:20:27 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:20:38 <andythenorth> Ammler: stupid other window managers 19:20:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: but aren't all options already there? 19:20:50 <peter1138> os/2 warp 19:20:54 <planetmaker> and all settings are gathered there. Thus the adv. settings are moved there 19:20:56 *** uzver is now known as Fixer 19:20:58 <planetmaker> frosch123: not at all. 19:21:02 <peter1138> risc os 19:21:05 <Prof_Frink> A suitably (mis)configured kwin. 19:21:06 <frosch123> (after moving driveside and town names) 19:21:07 <planetmaker> no newgrfs, no AI, no adv. settings there 19:21:08 <peter1138> all have the X on the left 19:21:12 <planetmaker> it's all in the main menu 19:21:15 <Ammler> an "X" on both sides? 19:21:21 <peter1138> http://www.flypig.co.uk/images/screenshots/openttd.png hehe :D 19:21:24 <planetmaker> thus it's not clear it needs consideration 19:26:21 <peter1138> hmm, difficult to get a diff from the source for that :s 19:27:30 <planetmaker> frosch123: basically they are nearly all there. The UI things need to go then from the adv. settings to the options window 19:27:48 <planetmaker> as they're not related to the game creation at all 19:28:06 <planetmaker> and the savegame date format is better listed near the language settings and measurment units used 19:28:08 <planetmaker> or so 19:28:10 <andythenorth> peter1138 ha ha....TTD was one of the reasons my brother bought a Win 3.1 pc, which is how I started playing TTD in 1994. 'My' computer was an Acorn A3000 19:28:59 <planetmaker> How do I go about moving strings in _each_ language file to another place within them? 19:29:18 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you don't :) 19:29:19 <planetmaker> or is it sufficient to just move it in english.txt? 19:29:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: I started with a BBC B, and ended with one of the first risc os machines 19:30:19 <andythenorth> sounds familiar 19:30:27 <planetmaker> Rubidium: well, but if I rename strings? 19:30:34 * andythenorth played too much JCB Digger when small 19:30:42 <frosch123> planetmaker: sed ? 19:30:52 <Alberth> then linux kernel 0.13 was released :) 19:30:57 <andythenorth> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvguXRnlMZE 19:31:00 <planetmaker> frosch123: renaming successful. But now moving them to another place in each file? 19:31:10 <frosch123> do not move them :) 19:31:17 <planetmaker> they're in the wrong place... 19:31:27 <Alberth> delete the original, insert a new one at the new place 19:31:28 <frosch123> i guess wt3 will do that 19:31:38 <planetmaker> like mapgen strings in the middle of game_options 19:31:47 <frosch123> but of course you could also do that with sed if you want to 19:31:54 <planetmaker> I don't :-P 19:32:10 <planetmaker> I don't have any idea how to do that with sed. Though it's probably possible 19:32:32 <Rubidium> I think it's better to keep a sed for renaming the other translations (so it can be done upon/after commit) and fix the order in english.txt 19:32:50 <Rubidium> then WT3 will make sure they're (over time) in the right order again 19:33:13 <planetmaker> Well, I did the replace with nedit, but that amounts to the same. One click, replace everywhere 19:33:39 <planetmaker> ok, then I'll just adopt English order ;-) 19:34:59 <Alberth> planetmaker: http://paste.openttd.org/225762 19:35:23 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:56 <planetmaker> thanks, Alberth 19:38:46 *** Fixer [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 19:42:46 <Ammler> http://img.openttdcoop.org/images/serverlobb.png <-- how do I see the rest of the ServerAddress? 19:46:26 *** Fixer [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 19:47:00 *** Fixer [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 19:47:35 *** Fixer [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 19:52:39 *** yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Poef!] 19:53:02 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ultimately....something like this? 19:53:02 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/game_setup_gui_1.png 19:53:07 * Zuu wonders why all intersection capacity model softwares name themself with uppercase names. 19:54:05 * Alberth expected nicely drawn tabs 19:54:27 <andythenorth> are they possible? I'm just going by what the game already does 19:54:47 <Zuu> There is image buttons, but duno if they can be used for that. 19:55:18 <andythenorth> we could add icons, but to what result? Pictures aren't always needed, they can just be visual noise 19:55:53 <Alberth> it needs work, but such a row of ugly buttons was the reason I tree-ified the advanced settings :) 19:56:14 <Alberth> (along with the recognition that space was very limited :) ) 19:56:17 <Zuu> I was more refering to hacking in drawn tabs using image buttons :-) 19:56:33 <Zuu> But a better solution is probably to introduce a tab panel widget of some sort. 19:56:38 <Alberth> translations? 19:57:02 <andythenorth> as in 'translations might not fit'? 19:57:10 <Zuu> or as in translating images? 19:57:21 <andythenorth> ah 19:57:23 <Alberth> as in how to translate an image? 19:57:45 * andythenorth lives in a world where 'images for words' is a big no-no 19:58:05 <andythenorth> not accessible, not translatable, costs way too much money to maintain 19:58:24 <andythenorth> bad for seo, can't be searched, etc etc 19:58:24 <Zuu> I was thinking in the lines of image + text buttons but maybe that's not possible and still the idea was not really ment to be serious. 19:58:27 <Alberth> a widget that can select one plane to display from several planes already exists 19:58:38 <andythenorth> yep....would be worth doing. 19:58:54 <andythenorth> these are not proper tabs....they are....broken tabs because they don't connect to the pane 19:58:55 <Alberth> so you 'only' need to make a nice tab-like row 19:59:12 <andythenorth> they don't have to look like 'tabs', they just have to connect to the pane :) 19:59:52 * andythenorth draws 19:59:54 <Zuu> Alberth: what do you think, is implementing frames something that this suggestion would need. The benefit would be to keep each tab content in their own class. And possible not having a giant widget tree with all widgets. 20:00:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: in RCT they use images for everything instead of words, no translations needed :) 20:00:34 <andythenorth> sucks unless you have some imaging library converting all your text to images :P 20:00:39 <andythenorth> hmmm 20:00:54 <andythenorth> after 16 years, is it time the game had some rounded corners? 20:01:00 <Alberth> no real proper images, like you draw them, not words as a collection of pixels 20:01:25 <Alberth> Zuu: what is a frame? 20:01:37 <Vornicus> I actually like the square thingies. 20:01:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: rounded corners are damn ugly 20:01:48 <andythenorth> nope 20:01:52 <andythenorth> they aren't 20:01:57 <andythenorth> but they don't fit TTD style :) 20:02:39 <Zuu> A frame in Delphi is almost like a window. It is a root level to place widgets on. Yet, the frame can be placed on other windows. This makes it possible to split up big windows in several classes as well as reusing a frame at many places. 20:02:54 <Alberth> Zuu: you are going to have 1 main class and 1 main widget tree, I think. 20:02:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://www.uiandus.com/blog/2009/7/27/realizations-of-rounded-rectangles.html 20:03:03 <frosch123> for tablike button in ttd i would suggest a trapezium shape 20:03:34 <frosch123> with a 90° angle on the left (for ltr languaes) and a 60° slope on the other end 20:03:41 * andythenorth suggests sticking with squares....as Simon Foster intended 20:04:09 <andythenorth> it's worked for 16 years, why start bleeding the interface now? 20:04:27 <Zuu> why bother with drag and drop then? ;-) 20:04:38 <andythenorth> it was always there 20:04:43 <andythenorth> depots... 20:04:47 <Alberth> it has no rounded corners 20:04:55 <andythenorth> and interaction != graphic design 20:06:02 <Alberth> Zuu: the Window class is still the main point of entry for all callbacks, introducing a frame is going to be non-trivial, I think. 20:06:36 *** ajmiles3 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:07:32 <Zuu> I agree that frames would be non-trival. Maybe it will not work good in OpenTTD where each Window implementation does quite a lot of the input processing instead of having per-widget callbacks. 20:08:20 <frosch123> Alberth: isn't it just about using the same widget enum for all configuration windows, and then including a widget tree from another definition into a new definition? 20:08:22 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:08:50 <frosch123> i.e. instead of copy pasting some lines between containerstart/-end include some other widget tree 20:09:14 <frosch123> otoh, how many widgets does the advanced settings window have? 20:09:34 <Alberth> very few widgets 20:09:46 <Alberth> all settings are fake 20:11:25 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/game_setup_gui_1b.png 20:11:38 <andythenorth> ^ would need to look more 'pane-like' 20:11:56 <Alberth> frosch123: what about al the OnXYZ callbacks? that's what I am worried about more 20:12:33 <planetmaker> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3826 <-- I added a new task to FS. 20:12:50 *** Fixer [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 20:13:00 <planetmaker> Maybe we can treat that like a general task as is done for the OSX deprecation topic and was done for the window system transition? 20:13:13 <frosch123> i do not know the adv. settings window very well, but is it more than putting the drawwidget and onclick functions into some separate class? 20:13:27 *** ajmiles2 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:13:41 <planetmaker> I also added the first three patches which move road vehicle and town names away from options 20:14:17 <planetmaker> frosch123: for the RV driving side virtually no work was required 20:14:24 <Zuu> well, the window that has frames would need to repeat the call to the OnXXX functions to the active frames. 20:14:48 <Zuu> Eg. on a tab window, only the visible panel/frame needs to be painted etc. 20:15:20 <Alberth> stacked widget takes care of that 20:15:49 <Alberth> although you may want to make a new 'widget' that redirects to the other window 20:18:27 <frosch123> anyway, i do not really favour the all in one tabbed window. better add some buttons for "newgrf settings", "ai settings", "game settings", "interface settings" or so 20:19:11 <planetmaker> frosch123: what's wrong with tabbed? It's actually a design which intuitvely is associated with several options which configure a common thing 20:19:43 <frosch123> it restricts the window size, everything needs to fit into the same space 20:19:59 <frosch123> and i do not consider it more intuitive for very different things 20:20:12 * andythenorth hmmms 20:20:21 <planetmaker> consider it globally: what do I need to do to get a new map started? 20:20:29 <planetmaker> - set map preferences 20:20:33 <planetmaker> - set newgrf preferences 20:20:37 <planetmaker> - set AI preferences 20:20:43 <planetmaker> - set 'other' settings 20:20:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker steals my words :o 20:20:48 <planetmaker> :-) 20:20:59 <planetmaker> feel honoured. It's a sign of good wording ;-) 20:21:19 <planetmaker> luckily you cannot copyright those words :-P 20:22:02 <andythenorth> i was going to type the same, but it's slow with one hand :P 20:22:18 <planetmaker> :-) 20:22:23 *** Fixer [~uzver@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 20:22:38 <planetmaker> let your son do the typing ;-) 20:23:32 <andythenorth> dwjnmf cXIK 20:24:02 <andythenorth> WS5II8QWEFUKqef8i3 c bbb 20:24:04 <Alberth> to make start of a new game more streamlined is good, but all settings stuff in one big window feels a bit bulky 20:24:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: now you type the missing letters :) 20:24:34 <andythenorth> Alberth: it's clear that there is still 'advanced settings' ? 20:25:26 <planetmaker> Alberth: I agree, I'm unsure about the (current) advanced settings. They're many. 20:25:46 <planetmaker> But then, I think that a tab view will give the strongest hint of what needs doing 20:26:05 <planetmaker> and it's like one window for each. They just share a common header 20:26:16 <planetmaker> E.g. the newgrf window hardly needs changing 20:26:20 <planetmaker> nor the KI window 20:26:31 <andythenorth> I think current advanced settings is fine and can handle the extra stuff from 'game options' that can be added to it 20:26:32 <planetmaker> actually the adv. settings neither 20:26:50 <planetmaker> it just needs visual integration 20:26:56 <planetmaker> "just" 20:26:58 <Alberth> so it is going to be a nicely inconsistent mess :) 20:27:10 <planetmaker> Alberth: as it is now 20:27:19 <planetmaker> but it makes things obvious 20:27:23 <Alberth> different styles all over the place :) 20:27:29 <planetmaker> making it consistent is then the next thing :-) 20:27:33 <Alberth> I agree with your remark 20:27:42 <andythenorth> currently it is very hard to build a mental model of what is where 20:27:52 <andythenorth> I get lost, and I've been playing OTTD for 4 years 20:28:10 <Alberth> yes, I agree the idea and the intention are good 20:28:21 <Alberth> window style is not that important now 20:28:34 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.156.18] has joined #openttd 20:28:38 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:28:49 <planetmaker> it's a project of similar impact as your window system. Maybe not quite as big. But it will take time. Quite some 20:28:55 <Alberth> the qeustion is just whether throwing it all in a single window is such a good idea 20:29:10 <planetmaker> I do think it makes sense :-) 20:29:15 <Alberth> although i also agree a tabbed panel is the obvious choice 20:29:20 <Zuu> A ugly hack would be to have each tab pane in their existing windows and create a fift window with the head that opens/closes each panel-window. 20:29:48 <planetmaker> finding a common size is not that difficult. They're approx. similar anyway 20:29:56 <planetmaker> and given the re-sizing capability... 20:30:02 <andythenorth> constraints are good.... 20:30:09 <andythenorth> they will force design choices 20:30:21 <Alberth> Zuu: as a proof of concept, that would be a good solution for a first impression 20:30:36 <andythenorth> everybody wants a pony with the current GUI, and that pony means 'buttons everywhere' :P 20:30:44 <planetmaker> :-) 20:30:47 <andythenorth> all crammed together 20:30:58 <planetmaker> Zuu: yes, as transition / mockup that might actually work 20:31:09 <andythenorth> stacked vertical buttons with no gaps makes it very easy to click on the wrong hit target, drives me nuts 20:31:10 <Alberth> 1x1 pixel seems big enough to me :) 20:31:23 <planetmaker> :-D. black or white only, please! 20:31:54 * andythenorth envisages....no nvm 20:32:07 <Alberth> use tooltip to decide which button you have :p 20:32:40 <planetmaker> hehe 20:32:43 <andythenorth> 1x2 pixels. 1 black (0), 1 white (1). Set preferences with patterns of clicks corresponding to binary 20:33:17 <andythenorth> if we had 16 pixels it could be byte code 20:33:25 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-hkibrasgw1-ff1ec000-127.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 20:35:28 *** ajmiles3 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:36:44 <Alberth> we have 256 colours :) 20:36:57 <Alberth> good night 20:37:06 <frosch123> night albert 20:37:22 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:37:26 <planetmaker> good night, Albert... 20:38:23 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:42:05 <frosch123> night 20:42:10 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff586.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:38 *** ajmiles2 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:47:33 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:47:33 *** ajmiles2 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:35 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:51:47 *** planetmaker [~pm@vs241204.vserver.de] has left #openttd [] 20:53:58 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has joined #openttd 21:03:07 <andythenorth> zzzzz zzzz 21:03:08 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [] 21:14:37 *** planetmaker [~pm@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 21:23:42 *** asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit [] 21:29:42 *** erani [eran-@garde.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:33:22 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:39:35 *** erani [eran-@garde.fi] has joined #openttd 21:39:49 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:44:28 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-23-56-121.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:44:54 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0fd0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 21:48:11 *** Eoin [eoin@cpc1-dund8-0-0-cust3.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:49:11 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 21:50:13 *** Eoin [eoin@cpc1-dund8-0-0-cust3.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:51:12 *** fjb [~frank@p5485C433.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:54:51 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0fd0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:59:21 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 22:01:09 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: heffer] 22:02:11 *** fjb [~frank@p5485E3FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:02:14 *** Chillosophy [~fu@195-241-120-76.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [] 22:07:54 <Terkhen> good night 22:08:25 *** ptr_ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 22:15:29 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 22:20:37 *** fjb [~frank@p5485E3FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:47 *** JostVice [~jostvice@85.136.129.22.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #openttd [] 22:35:40 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@5e0b8db7.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 22:41:22 *** fjb [~frank@p5485D923.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:42:18 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a5c2f.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:42:18 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 22:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> haha, elections in germany are way more funy... 5 parties, two large parties have 67 seats, smaller parties have 23, 13 and 11 seats: necessary for majority: 91, any "sensible" coalition has only <=90 seats 22:46:28 <Zuu> I'm a bit dissapointed that in Sweden two blocks has been formed with 4 respective 3 parties in each which make up their sides before the election. Now it becomes less and less important which party in the block you vote on. 22:46:59 <Zuu> IMHO you should tell which party/persons you like and then after that the parties that people like most form an alianse. 22:47:41 <Zuu> With the current development we soon get the US situation with just two parties to vote on. 22:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the difference in germany is that nobody really wants a coalition with the "left" party 22:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have two blocks who neither can get a majority 22:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ... more often than not 22:48:58 <Zuu> I guess with the WW2 history it is much more forbidden to include the "left" party in Germany than in other countries. 22:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> this is more about the post-ww2 history 22:51:48 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9853.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> in this election in the Land Nordrhein-Westfalen the possible coalitions were a little more open, because it was kinda expected that the existing conservative (black)/liberal (yellow) coalition wasn't going to win anyway, so they hoped they could form an experimental black/green coalition 22:52:08 *** JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause> which now also doesn't have a majority 22:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the only sensible coalitions now are a "grand coalition" (black/red) between the two large parties or a "red/red/green" coalition with the left party 22:54:01 <SmatZ> what is wrong with me? I am playing Portal, and I simply can kill my companion cube! 22:54:13 <SmatZ> because... I like her... 22:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> way lesser chance has a "jamaica" (black/yellow/green) coalition 22:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or an "ampel" [=traffic light] (red/yellow/green) coalition 22:55:28 *** fjb [~frank@p5485D923.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:59:59 *** fjb [~frank@p5485F3C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 23:10:03 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 23:12:01 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DB3EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Regel Nr. 1: Jeder hört auf mein Kommando! - Regel Nr. 2: Jeder bleibt auf dem Weg! - Regel Nr. 3: ... ... Der, der blÀht, als hinterster geht!] 23:24:42 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:32:25 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1C8CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:54 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: At present we have "Blue/Yellow-who-hate-each-other" or "Yellow/Red/4-tiny-others-which-won't-be-stable" :P 23:34:02 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-82-27-6-88.pete.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:35:42 <OwenS> Its quite interesting. 23:35:57 <OwenS> The other thing is that the 4-tiny-others will try to extract blood, being as they are 23:36:30 <OwenS> But hey, at least in Germany a party which gets 23% of the vote gets 23% of the seats rather than 11% :P 23:37:13 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c9e7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:52 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:40 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 23:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that it's extremely unlikely that you have "4 tiny others" 23:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> as parties with less than 5% of the votes get no seats 23:50:13 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: We have 7 small parties ;) 23:50:27 <OwenS> But yes our system is broken. Why do you think its top of the Lib Dem's agenda? :p 23:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> we have about 20 small parties, but rarely anyone of these gets significant amount of votes 23:51:23 <OwenS> The parties go, sizewise, 306/258/57/8/6/5/3/3/1/1/0.../1 (the last is an independent) 23:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you occasionally hear outcries when a right wing party manages to get into a parliament, but usually they get out of there in the next election 23:52:20 <OwenS> Our rightwing nutjobs got 1.9% of the vote, but no seats 23:52:43 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c9e7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 23:53:43 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC570C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!] 23:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 5% is a pretty steep margin. nationwide that means about 2 million votes 23:54:39 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: DUP got 8 seats but only 0.6% of the votes... our system is really screwy like that :p 23:55:27 <OwenS> (Northern Ireland's constituencies are smaller population wise, so they have a significantly above-average proportion of the seats for their population) 23:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you have a regionally founded party that can do that, that is possible in germany as well 23:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. bavaria's CSU 23:56:30 <OwenS> Also, none of the national parties stand in Northern Irelend (But do everywhere else), bizzarely 23:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> when they get 50% in bavaria, that means they easily pass 5% nationwide, with only bavarian votes 23:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but the CSU has kind of a "fixed" coalition with the CDU, which runs in the rest of germany 23:58:02 <OwenS> Heh, we don't really have any coalitions. 23:58:26 <OwenS> The SNP have spent the last 5 years attacking Labour. Now they want to cuddle up to them because they hate the Conservatives more :p 23:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more than a coalition 23:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more like "sister parties" 23:58:58 <Eoin> Well 23:59:05 <Eoin> SNP > Labour 23:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> mean they form one united fraction, not two separate ones