Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:30 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.250.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 00:20:21 *** qubodup [~qubodup@178.0.97.249] has joined #openttd 00:20:24 <qubodup> hello 00:21:23 <qubodup> how would I install the music pack? 00:24:03 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:46 <qubodup> cp: missing destination file operand after `openmsx-0.2.1' 00:31:28 <qubodup> well, I used the downloadable thing, but no music plays 00:31:42 <qubodup> the music player quickly switches between track names but plays none 00:33:42 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-90-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:36:08 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-63-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 00:36:11 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 00:39:45 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-104-129.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause> linux? installed timidity? 01:10:15 <qubodup> i have not 01:10:41 <qubodup> no mention in the readme. I'll install it, thanks! 01:10:48 <qubodup> but first: sleep 01:10:50 *** qubodup [~qubodup@178.0.97.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:13:11 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:18 *** Oaze [~chatzilla@adsl-216-246-250-214.ext.distributel.net] has joined #openttd 01:36:43 *** Oaze [~chatzilla@adsl-216-246-250-214.ext.distributel.net] has left #openttd [] 01:44:34 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Quit: Quit] 01:49:00 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 02:25:06 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-131-135.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:30:25 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Quit: Quit] 02:30:42 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-137-135.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:32:13 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.154.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:40:22 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8ce19.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00:27 *** Plimmer [~Plimmer@0x573ef885.lmvnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 03:16:53 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:00 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 03:17:35 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:40 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 03:18:27 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18:34 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 03:20:11 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:23 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 03:32:55 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:5da:2647:de83:b703] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:09:35 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:42:37 <SmatZ> morning 04:56:03 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7670D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:56:31 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B771E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:27:24 *** Mitch_1_2 [~Mitch@d122-105-236-232.sbr19.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has left #openttd [] 05:45:56 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:07:46 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has joined #openttd 06:17:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@89.246.162.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17:32 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleeps] 06:21:40 *** Yso [~spam@215-196.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 06:26:29 *** welshdragon [~dragon@ip05.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:29 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:29 *** Jolteon [~jolt@ip21.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:14 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC6174.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:36:00 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:53:19 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BD47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:13:11 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:16:29 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 07:27:46 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:31 *** Jolteon [~jolt@ip21.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 07:28:51 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 07:33:28 *** SirSquid1ess [~sirsquidn@au.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 07:35:06 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@au.dongues.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:35:25 *** russell_h [~russell_h@ash.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:35:38 *** russell_h [~russell_h@ash.osuosl.org] has joined #openttd 07:45:37 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:00 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 07:48:00 *** welshdragon [~dragon@ip05.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 07:55:35 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 08:02:09 <planetmaker> @ports 08:02:10 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound) 08:03:01 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:08 <dihedral> pm: did you forget? :-P 08:30:11 <planetmaker> why not use c&p when it's available? 08:36:21 *** Goulp [~Goulp@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 08:38:11 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:34:42 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8dc20.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:39:17 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust443.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:40:25 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.250.146] has joined #openttd 09:52:12 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3791.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:52:41 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 09:58:17 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know] 10:54:40 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 11:02:27 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 11:10:08 *** jack [~joachim@244.81-166-176.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:11:47 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:15:28 *** Tennel [~Tennel@port-ip-213-211-212-60.reverse.mdcc-fun.de] has joined #openttd 11:17:14 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:23:07 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:24:20 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 11:28:10 *** wollollo [~martin@host109-152-199-30.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 11:29:01 *** wollollo [~martin@host109-152-199-30.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has left #openttd [] 11:30:49 *** Chillosophy [~fu@195-241-120-76.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 11:34:15 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:37:01 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 11:39:55 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 11:46:11 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust443.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:46:40 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DB1A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:06:36 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:e195:cfe4:76ed:3510] has joined #openttd 12:06:39 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:15:19 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-239-138-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 12:23:50 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.72.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:28:26 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:29:35 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.72.132] has joined #openttd 12:38:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.162.73] has joined #openttd 12:45:34 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 12:46:15 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC6174.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!] 12:46:28 *** Tennel [~Tennel@port-ip-213-211-212-60.reverse.mdcc-fun.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 13:06:13 *** heffer [~felix@mue-88-130-123-176.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #openttd 13:06:19 <Belugas> Hello 13:25:00 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 13:27:56 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-63-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:30:22 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-172-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 13:30:25 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 13:34:59 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:26 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 13:41:22 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 14:03:55 *** orudge_ [~orudge@75-149-149-225-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #openttd 14:06:52 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3791.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:08:40 *** heffer [~felix@mue-88-130-123-176.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Quit: heffer] 14:20:08 <Alberth> I am trying to interpret nfo code written for the mini airport state machine by yexo, without much luck 14:20:09 <Alberth> http://paste.openttd.org/225871 <-- my program used to decode, around line 62 starts the interesting parsing stuff 14:20:26 <Alberth> http://paste.openttd.org/225870 the sprite and the output of the program 14:20:54 <Alberth> nvar looks very wrong, but why? 14:21:17 <planetmaker> ok, first question: you are aware that there's no NFO specs so far for airport state machines? 14:21:31 <planetmaker> except the drafts of the airports branch of course 14:21:33 <Alberth> I have some stuff by pikka 14:21:39 <Alberth> but yes 14:21:40 <Yexo> if feature == 5 or feature == 0x0b or feature >= 0x0e: return None <- that isn't correct 14:21:52 <planetmaker> yeah. That's at least partially based on Yexo's work :-) 14:22:01 <Yexo> planetmaker: it's the other way around 14:22:31 <planetmaker> well :-) You did the OpenTTD coding which I referred to. Pikka might have come first with some specs, yes 14:22:53 <Yexo> Alberth: variables 0x60-0x7F have a variable (byte) that directly follows the var number, in this case 0x00 14:23:01 <Yexo> the 0x60 you read as and-mask is actually shift-num 14:23:57 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:16 <Yexo> and because it has the 0x20 bit set it's an advanced varaction2 14:24:42 <planetmaker> oh the joy of NFO readability ;-) 14:25:18 <Alberth> planetmaker: I gave up on manual interpretation :) 14:25:30 <planetmaker> :-) 14:25:50 <Alberth> Yexo: my program also concluded that now, I need to do a bit more programming :) 14:26:07 <planetmaker> Alberth, what programme is that? nfo2nml? 14:26:49 *** bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has joined #openttd 14:26:52 <Alberth> Yexo: as for the feature check, those values don't have a 'related' object, so I thought they never would happen 14:26:58 <Yexo> Alberth: http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/nml/ those patches might help you 14:27:10 <planetmaker> :-D 14:27:12 <Yexo> they read a grf (not nfo yet) and parse it into an nml ast 14:27:23 <planetmaker> :-O 14:27:24 <Yexo> Alberth: airports have "planes" as related object 14:27:54 <Yexo> code is not very clean and far from finished, but the varaction2 code is complete IIRC 14:29:51 <Rubidium> so when you've got the ast->nml you can make nml a linter as well :) 14:29:57 <Alberth> airports are 0x0d in my document, so < 0x0e 14:30:19 <Rubidium> or code formatter :) 14:31:34 <Yexo> ah, you're right, I confused them with airport tiles 14:32:04 <Yexo> Rubidium: ast->nml is already done (not 100% complete, but enough for now) 14:51:21 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:20:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B771E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:33:14 *** Ruudjah [~ruud_pout@ip94-126-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 15:33:26 <Ruudjah> hi all 15:33:35 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC6174.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:33:53 <Ruudjah> I'm a longtime fan of TTDX/openttd 15:34:27 <Forked> welcome :) 15:34:34 <Ruudjah> I'm an open source advacate through the dutch Pirate Party (Piratenpartij) 15:35:44 <Ruudjah> OpenTTD rocks, and if I wasnt going for elections in The Netherlands, I'd be playing it ;) 15:36:37 <Ruudjah> My question is: are you guys familiar with Pirate Party, and if so, do you think removing copyright will harm OSS in any way? 15:37:06 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff408.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:37:33 <Alberth> Yexo: http://paste.openttd.org/225872 fancy some nfo input? :p 15:38:16 <Rubidium> Ruudjah: I think it will; if there isn't copyright everyone can do whatever what they like with it *including* closing the source 15:38:44 <planetmaker> ^ 15:38:47 <Ruudjah> How should we fix this? 15:39:02 <planetmaker> disallowing software patents 15:39:07 <Hirundo> Copyright => no one is allowed to copy your work => good 15:39:13 <Yexo> lol, wouldn't it be much easier to just take #954 to get nfo input? 15:39:26 <Hirundo> Software patents => No one can do anything like your work => bad 15:39:30 <Rubidium> reduce copyright to say 10 years and forbidding software patents, or limit their applicability to only one year 15:39:31 <Ruudjah> right, software patents is explicitly disallowed in our program 15:39:51 <planetmaker> mind that I cannot vote for you missing Dutch citizenship ;-) 15:39:52 <Markk> Europe don't have software patents? 15:39:58 <planetmaker> Markk, effectively they do 15:39:59 <Ruudjah> we say: copyright for personal use is free (no copyright), commercial use is maximum of 5 years 15:40:12 <Ruudjah> EU does not officially have software patents 15:40:22 <planetmaker> but de facto 15:40:30 <planetmaker> look at the policy of the European patent office 15:40:34 <Ruudjah> though it is possible to patent business processes which effectively makes EU have SP 15:40:50 <andythenorth> Copyright (or at least, author's right) is necessary to ensure freedom. GPL is a beautiful legal construction in the way it uses copyright to provide copyleft :) 15:41:12 <Ruudjah> the viral part of GPL is being undone when removing copyright at all 15:41:36 <Ruudjah> except when you reduce commercial copyright to 5 years 15:41:37 <planetmaker> exactly. And that's bad ;-) 15:41:49 <planetmaker> (removing the viral part of GPL) 15:41:58 <Rubidium> Ruudjah: no copyright implies public domain which implies anything can be done with it which implies any licensing is null and void 15:42:06 <Hirundo> Ruudjah: 5 years starting when ? 15:42:11 <Ruudjah> Rubidium:correct 15:42:22 <Ruudjah> except for commercial 15:42:28 <Ruudjah> within terms of 5 year 15:42:37 <Ruudjah> 5 years starting from publication 15:42:47 <planetmaker> 5 years is not much 15:42:51 <planetmaker> What's publication? 15:42:58 <planetmaker> Release of source? Release of binary? 15:43:01 <Ruudjah> enough for artists to make money of off it 15:43:01 <Rubidium> yet OSS is usually not commerical, which means you'll just kill OSS 15:43:12 <Alberth> Ruudjah: what about books? 15:43:35 <Ruudjah> books have the ability to get your ROI within 5 years 15:44:02 <Ruudjah> So: removing copyright 'will destroy OSS'. 15:44:09 <Ruudjah> How can we fix this? 15:44:19 <Rubidium> ask your lawyer 15:44:22 <Ruudjah> 1: not removing copyright 15:44:38 <Yexo> why do you want to remove copyright so bad anyway? 15:44:39 <Ruudjah> you guys seem to have put quite some thought into the issue 15:44:43 <planetmaker> copyright per se is not bad 15:44:48 <Alberth> Yexo: SPRITENAME handling seems to be missing in the parser 15:45:02 <Yexo> in theory it's good (if everyone would share all information), in practice it'll be very bad (because a lot of people/companies will keep everything to themselfs) 15:45:07 <Ruudjah> so I am reckoning you guys have an idea in where the soution may be 15:45:10 <planetmaker> especially in a commercial environment it's probably more good than harm 15:45:18 <Ruudjah> well 15:45:32 <Ruudjah> a *very* important part which i forgot to tell 15:45:41 <Alberth> Ruudjah: ask around in the digital rights movement 15:45:43 <Ruudjah> is that we *require* (when possible and sensible) 15:45:53 <Ruudjah> to add source 15:45:56 <planetmaker> But extending copyright such that all personal use is limited beyond repair; that's where current copyright goes wrong 15:46:00 <Ruudjah> a reference to the source 15:46:20 <Yexo> Alberth: in the parser of #954? could be, yorick wrote that and I didn't check it at all so far 15:46:43 <Hirundo> add such a reference to what? 15:46:50 <Alberth> Ruudjah: so it is at http://www.verweggistan.somewhere/ unfortunately, the server never seems up 15:46:55 <Ruudjah> problem with copyright is big corporations want to enforce copyirght, therefore internet connections must be monitored 15:47:14 <planetmaker> that's not a logical line one has to follow 15:47:17 <andythenorth> Ruudjah: I'm doing a fairly large open source contract building software for government. if there was no copyright, we couldn't meaningfully open source it 15:47:24 <andythenorth> but we will 15:47:27 <Ruudjah> right 15:47:30 <andythenorth> because copyright exists. 15:47:46 <Yexo> Ruudjah: that is a complete wrong aproach, they "want to monitor internet connections", that doesn't mean they'll have to be allowed to do that 15:47:55 <planetmaker> Just because a book is copyrighted doesn't mean I have to leave my fingerprint and the unique of the book stored online so that I cannot sell it or make a personal copy to cite parts of it when having a discussion with my peer group 15:48:10 <Ruudjah> In france, they implemented HADOPI law, which effectively does just that 15:48:16 <Yexo> and as said before, copyright is not only bad, and not only big corporations want to enforce copyright 15:48:26 <Ruudjah> in most other western countries they want to enforce copyright law through ACTA 15:48:40 <Yexo> did you read anything about the problems with the ipad port? that was openttd/apple enforcing openttd copyright 15:48:40 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-239-138-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:41 <planetmaker> Ruudjah, monitoring is not about copyright... The main point of (or rather agains) monitoring of activities like that on a general level is freedom. 15:48:49 <Alberth> Ruudjah: OSS also wants to enforce their rights 15:48:52 <planetmaker> The very one also granted by your constitution, I'm sure 15:49:09 * andythenorth ponders 15:49:29 <Ruudjah> freedom is taken away under the excuse of copyright 15:49:39 <andythenorth> in theory....if monitoring *didn't* piss off lots of people resp. freedom, would monitoring be desirable to protect GPL software 15:49:42 <andythenorth> ?? 15:49:48 <Ruudjah> 1: restore freedom, 2: fix copyright in a digital age 15:50:01 <Ruudjah> no. 15:50:14 <Rubidium> copyright isn't the problem, the problem is the invasive ways they are controlling it in 15:50:47 <andythenorth> what would the theoretical correct answer be to GPL violations? 15:50:51 <Ruudjah> if you do not have copyright, or only have copyright in a form which is desirable in an internet age, you don't need controlling internet for that reason 15:51:36 <Hirundo> andythenorth: Taking the case to court, I think (after sending the general legal letters and stuff) 15:51:41 <Rubidium> copyright *is* the way to enforce open source stuff 15:51:44 <Ruudjah> well, we could extend the requirement that when you remix existing work, you should not only refer to it, but also include the original sourcecode 15:51:45 <Yexo> andythenorth: sue them till they release the source? 15:52:11 <Ruudjah> because the problem with removing copyright, is that the source isnt needed to be there, or a reference 15:52:27 <andythenorth> lets say someone mods a GPLed OSS project, and does a distribution that violates GPL...if that distribution was discovered by a monitoring service, is that inherently evil? 15:52:33 <Ruudjah> enforcing to put the reference *and* the orginal work, will solve the problem? 15:52:36 * andythenorth doesn't advocate monitoring btw 15:52:55 <Yexo> Ruudjah: so if I buy two pieces of source code (with a license that allows me ot use it commercially), then make a new program based on those 2 pieces of source code and sell that, would I need to include the source code? that would be very bad 15:53:46 <Ruudjah> ideally yes, but current world doesnt work with OSS/free information in mind 15:53:51 <Ruudjah> so 15:54:14 <Ruudjah> no, it would harm the software industry because not everyone thinks open yet 15:54:19 <Ruudjah> but 15:54:28 <Yexo> andythenorth: finding illegal acts via monitoring isn't bad in itself, the problem (as I see it) is the many ways that very same monitoring can and will be abused when it's in effect 15:54:50 <Rubidium> Ruudjah: without (most) of the rest of the world changing the rules at the same time, it'll fail ugly anyway 15:55:11 * andythenorth thinks this is a nice debate....but back to work making OSS and not-so-OSS software :P 15:55:12 <Ruudjah> we should not enforce opening up source code. We should as a government make sure opening up can be done in society 15:55:27 <Ruudjah> Rubidium: we shou;d start somewhere 15:55:37 <Yexo> opening up source code can already be done by (for example) using the gpl 15:56:11 <Ruudjah> correct. Encouraging it facilitated by the goverment helps making the world more open 15:56:13 <Ruudjah> ie 15:56:30 <Ruudjah> if the government wants to use certain software, government can buy the source and publish it 15:56:45 <Rubidium> Ruudjah: how do you handle stuff copyrighted abroad under the "current" rules? 15:56:46 <Ruudjah> so every citizen can benefit/improve it 15:57:28 <Ruudjah> when we would write law today, tomorrow current copyrighted stuff would get a 5 year counter 15:57:42 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 15:57:53 <Rubidium> Ruudjah: so, in 5 years we can request Windows 7's source code? 15:57:54 <Hirundo> The govt can publish the source only if it has full ownership of the source code, which IIRC is often not the case 15:58:11 <Ruudjah> no, in 5 years you can use windows7 freely 15:58:19 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> in theory....if monitoring *didn't* piss off lots of people resp. freedom, would monitoring be desirable to protect GPL software <-- monitoring human behaviour in general is IMHO a violation of my rights to privacy 15:58:27 <Ruudjah> Hirundo: the goverment has the power to buy it, then publish it 15:58:42 <Ruudjah> as a big customer 15:59:20 <Ruudjah> in contract negotiations govt cn say: sure, we'll buy your product, but you need to open up the source. We will pay for that, also 15:59:27 <Hirundo> Companies generally won't allow that without significant compensation, since it may contain large portions of their IP 16:00:00 <Hirundo> public ICT projects will then cost even more than they do now 16:00:07 <Ruudjah> IP is what we want to get rid off. We want EP: Extellectual Property 16:00:30 <Rubidium> IP is generally patents 16:00:35 <Ruudjah> knowledge property not internal, but external for everyone to share/benefit from 16:00:45 <Rubidium> so getting rid of software patents is way better than removing copyright on software 16:00:57 <Ruudjah> right 16:01:09 <planetmaker> Ruudjah, putting everything into the public domain after 5 years will basically ruin the profit one can make on intellectual property 16:01:18 <Ruudjah> So we would need to make specific rulings for OSS software/OS data 16:01:30 <Ruudjah> planetmaker: that is correct 16:01:33 <andythenorth> it's a strange twist of fate that patents were originally constructed to *ensure* freedom of intellectual property 16:01:39 <andythenorth> something went wrong along the road :o 16:01:46 <Ruudjah> thats why we advocate for a model wehere companies will make money using expertise, not knowledge 16:02:01 <Ruudjah> better sell the service around the data, not the data itself 16:02:15 * andythenorth isn't sure what the difference is between knowledge and expertise :o 16:02:28 <Ruudjah> expertise=experience with knowledge 16:02:44 <Yexo> <Ruudjah> books have the ability to get your ROI within 5 years <- they don't hva ethat ability when everyone knows that the books will be (nearly) free 5 years later 16:02:48 <Hirundo> Ruudjah: Is the GPL so bad? Why 'fix' (governments tend to break stuff) what isn't broken 16:02:57 <Yexo> at least most books aren't outdated 5 years later 16:03:05 <Ruudjah> GPL=awesome 16:03:24 <Ruudjah> but is based on monopolisation of information laws 16:03:31 <Ruudjah> GPL=anti monopolisation 16:03:45 <Ruudjah> thus, GPL should be based on non monopolisation laws 16:04:28 <Ruudjah> Yexo: people still buy printed copies 16:04:49 <Ruudjah> writer still can sell printed copies, only a handfull will wait 5 years 16:05:06 <Yexo> Ruudjah: if the copyright is only valid for 5 years then after 5 years everyone can create printed copies after 5 years 16:05:15 <Ruudjah> yup 16:05:23 <Yexo> and I think many people will wait if they _know_ it's legal and cheap 5 years later 16:05:26 <Ruudjah> so the first 5 years, writer is able to make his money 16:05:32 <Yexo> currently people don't because the price after 5 years will be the same anyway 16:05:36 <Alberth> except nobody will buy the book 16:05:40 <Ruudjah> people download those books now, too 16:06:02 <Rubidium> I think it will only exagerate the current escalation of RIAA/MPAA and such 16:06:02 <Ruudjah> people still buy books *while they know downloading it is legal and free as in beer* 16:06:20 <Ruudjah> (legal in The Netherlands) 16:06:25 <Alberth> I like a paper version, so why buy harry potter now versus wait 5 years if every company can print them? 16:06:41 <Ruudjah> because you prbably want to read it now 16:06:53 <Ruudjah> at least most people want to 16:07:21 <Hirundo> Free printed copies are hard to get, though, and dead trees tend to read more nicely than screens 16:07:36 <Ruudjah> the main point is that information wants to be free. Any law monopolizing information is futile in the end 16:08:16 <Hirundo> No, monopolization encourages creating that information in the first place 16:08:20 <Alberth> Ruudjah: as long as industry lives from the fact that they can sell many copies to many individuals, that is not going to change 16:08:30 <Ruudjah> so, people, artist, writers, musicians, sofwtare devvers, companies, all need to develop a business model not around knowledge or information itself, but develop a business model around expetrtise, services around data 16:08:53 <Ruudjah> Alberth: this is something they do less and less 16:09:14 <Yexo> Ruudjah: no offence, but if you're running for the elections in a few days, isn't it a bit late to discuss all of this now? Shouldn't you have had a good idea of how to handle all this _months ago_? 16:09:32 <Ruudjah> well 16:09:42 <Ruudjah> the discussion is never over 16:09:43 <Alberth> Ruudjah: not only industry that sells information 16:09:48 <Ruudjah> we discussed it before 16:09:53 <Ruudjah> also with other communities 16:09:57 <Alberth> also industry that sells eg cooking pans 16:10:05 <andythenorth> Ruudjah: " all need to develop a business model not around knowledge or information itself, but develop a business model around expetrtise, services around data" <- I agree, but I tell you it's fricking difficult 16:10:22 <Alberth> if not impossible 16:10:23 * andythenorth is trying every day to make payroll on the basis of expertise 16:10:30 <Ruudjah> our party program is never done 16:10:36 <Ruudjah> and develops always 16:10:53 <Ruudjah> The current program is written with OSS in mind from a copyright perspective 16:11:11 <Ruudjah> thats why we require references to the source 16:11:28 <Alberth> Yexo: that parser also seems to work after small corrections http://paste.openttd.org/225873 16:11:43 <Ruudjah> Yup. those business models are hard to develop 16:12:01 <Alberth> Ruudjah: if you take on something fundalemental as copyright, you need to look at EVERY form of product, not just digital things 16:12:03 <Ruudjah> but not impossible 16:12:21 <Ruudjah> It is 16:12:35 <Ruudjah> at least we tried, and I think we covered most of it 16:12:51 <Ruudjah> But there are always small niches in where not enough thought is put into it 16:13:06 <Ruudjah> (OSS not being one of them) 16:14:04 <Yexo> Alberth: I'd like both a grf and nfo parser in nml, so if you have a framework that support both (where the code parsing the various actions is shared) feel free to commit it 16:14:05 <Hirundo> Ruudjah: Are you purely focused on copyright, or does your program also include statements wrt. e.g. economy, education, integration ? 16:14:15 <Ruudjah> but copyright is mostly relevant in a digital world since most information is made digitally nowadays 16:14:35 <Ruudjah> We are not a one-issue-party, but we are a themeparty 16:14:41 <Ruudjah> the theme being information 16:14:43 <Hirundo> I beg to disagree 16:14:47 <Hirundo> The cooking pan I'll be using to prepare my meal contains information 16:15:04 <Ruudjah> from an information perspective we look to politics 16:15:33 * Rubidium wonders how much the pirate party has thought stuff through 16:15:33 <Ruudjah> so ie for medcare, we say: remove farma patents, and we free up 4 billion (4.000.000.000 €) per year in NL 16:15:34 <Hirundo> Everything around us, that we touch, contains information, most of which is covered by some form of copyright 16:15:46 <Hirundo> But who will develop new medicines ? 16:15:50 <Ruudjah> Rudidium: why? 16:16:06 <Alberth> Ruudjah: you seem to find new information here 16:16:06 <Ruudjah> current industry does hardly develop new medicines 16:16:07 <Rubidium> Ruudjah: "briefgeheim" doesn't apply to postcards 16:16:33 <Ruudjah> they only use farmapatents to ensure income 16:17:00 <Ruudjah> they only spend about 17% of their income to R&D, mostly for medicines we already have 16:17:05 <Rubidium> so when you don't package a letter in a non-tranlucent enveloppe it doesn't fall under "briefgeheim" 16:17:06 <TrueBrain> hmm .. I love my rented car ...... I should only not drive like a maniac :D :) :) :) 16:17:24 <orudge_> 'lo TrueBrain 16:17:55 <Rubidium> normal emails are like postcards, so no "briefgeheim"; when you encrypt the email it can be considered as a letter in a non-translucent enveloppe and thus "briefgeheim" applies 16:17:58 <Hirundo> There is a constant need for new antibiotics and such due to resistance issues 16:18:03 <Ruudjah> so we do think about economics, healthcare, etc, but from information perspective 16:18:26 <Hirundo> Information won't get you â¬30 billion 16:18:34 <Ruudjah> 4 to start with 16:18:42 *** SirSquid1ess [~sirsquidn@au.dongues.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:50 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@au.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 16:18:53 <Ruudjah> then: the first country realizing information should be free, wins the R&D of the world 16:19:20 <Ruudjah> since any R&D department is not hampered by any juridical issues surrounding ideas/designs/information/etc 16:19:31 <Hirundo> No, it will scare away all R&D since they can't make as much money here 16:19:33 <Ruudjah> so there we'd boost our economy 16:19:51 <Ruudjah> at first sight, they'd be scared maybe 16:19:59 <Hirundo> The massive 'changes in business models 16:20:12 <Hirundo> can't be done without a serious recession 16:20:16 <glx> copyright is not a problem, patents are 16:20:19 <Ruudjah> untill they see that liberating information from monpolization gives enourmous power to R&D 16:20:49 <glx> and BTW HADOPI is still not applied ;) 16:20:50 <Ruudjah> enforcing copyright will get us laws like HADOPI and treaties such as ACTA 16:20:50 <Alberth> Ruudjah: so your efforts should not be against copyright, but to change business models. Other stuff like copyright will disappear by itself 16:20:51 <Hirundo> It's a prisoners dilemma, liberation is only useful if the rest does it as well 16:21:06 <Ruudjah> true 16:21:09 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation? 16:21:30 <Ruudjah> Ruudjah: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation? -->Czech? 16:21:37 <glx> HADOPI is not about copyrights, it's about majors' money 16:21:50 <Alberth> Yexo: I just started this afternoon, and have no connection to nml ast, so you are ahead of me in that respect 16:21:51 <Ruudjah> when there is no copyright, HADOPI is useless 16:21:52 <Hirundo> Judging by ACTA, it's unlikely that they (= the rest) will 16:22:09 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: ? Wtf? 16:22:11 <TrueBrain> stupid IRC 16:22:12 <glx> but copyright is not the problem 16:22:18 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation? 16:22:19 <glx> copyright is good 16:22:27 <Yexo> Alberth: I haven't worked on it for some time, and I won't do so in the next week 16:22:37 <TrueBrain> (sorry Ruudjah, my tab-complete failed .. yo have a poor name :p :p) 16:22:50 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: forgetting it? 16:23:05 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, you removed it, so I Expected you would put it back when the troubles were over ;) 16:23:15 <TrueBrain> is it safe to put back? 16:23:20 <Rubidium> don't know 16:23:21 <Ruudjah> to answer a question put here a few mins ago 16:23:29 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: what were the issues? :) 16:23:48 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it not updating 16:23:55 <Rubidium> and it still isn't updating 16:23:57 <Ruudjah> Alberth Ruudjah: you seem to find new information here --> no, but I am wondering if there are any ideas I don't know of yet 16:24:14 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: for about 2 months now 16:24:24 <TrueBrain> why nobody ever told me that :( 16:24:45 <Alberth> Yexo: is it a good idea to extend in that direction now? nml seems to have enough problem atm 16:24:48 <glx> TrueBrain: wrong certificate ? 16:24:59 <TrueBrain> cant make an SSH connection 16:25:00 <Alberth> problems* 16:25:01 <Ruudjah> As OTTD is a community with people very aware of copyright, I am thinking people are here having good ideas how to fix the current problem 16:25:30 <Alberth> Ruudjah: imho those are two different things 16:26:02 <Ruudjah> you mean copyright and the problem? 16:26:15 <Alberth> knowing the current situation is not the same as knowing how to rotate the world in 180 degrees 16:26:20 <glx> DRM are a bigger problem than copyright (usually complicates legit users life) 16:26:28 <Hirundo> Ruudjah: - ban software patents - revoke mickey mouse protection laws 16:27:18 <Ruudjah> mickey mouse protection laws= trademark + copyright 16:27:26 <Hirundo> If you manage that, you've come pretty far 16:27:42 <Ruudjah> first step is to talk about this all in dutch parliament 16:28:01 <Hirundo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act 16:28:15 <Ruudjah> if we manage to do that, we can sprout solutions, maybe your solution 16:28:16 <Alberth> Ruudjah: software patent is basically copyright on ideas. That is bad 16:28:54 <Hirundo> Ruudjah: You're missing a vital point: First step is to get into the parliament in the first place 16:28:57 <Ruudjah> We explicitly want to ban SW patents 16:29:05 <Ruudjah> :) 16:29:13 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: nightlies should now be a bit faster, as it will no longer wait for a timeout of the CZ mirror :p 16:29:16 <TrueBrain> grrr 16:29:20 <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: change your name 16:29:24 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nightlies should now be a bit faster, as it will no longer wait for a timeout of the CZ mirror :p 16:29:26 <Ruudjah> Hirundo: true, we are working on that too. Pirates already are in the EU parliament 16:29:40 <Ruudjah> TrueBrain: lol :) 16:30:21 <Ruudjah> wednesday we want to make a step to be in the Dutch National parliament 16:30:36 <Ruudjah> (elections in NL) 16:31:12 <Hirundo> Getting elected in an economic crisis, yet without a serious economic program, seems very hard to me 16:31:42 <Ruudjah> Well 16:32:06 <Ruudjah> in NL, there is a bureau which calculates all programs of each party 16:32:32 <Ruudjah> but the model they use would endup the other way around for Pirate party. 16:32:39 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I emailed the sysop of CZ mirror what is going on :) 16:32:54 <Ruudjah> ie: we say filesharing is a + on economics, while the bureau says its a - (minus) 16:33:39 <Alberth> so proof the bureau is wrong 16:33:49 <Ruudjah> We will if we have the time & resources 16:34:04 <Hirundo> Too late now, I'm afraid 16:34:17 <Ruudjah> we first need to get elected, so it's a chicken-egg problem 16:34:33 <planetmaker> <Ruudjah> We will if we have the time & resources <-- someone with a claim not commonly accepted has to come with the proof a-priory ;-) 16:36:03 * Alberth does not believe movies and music sharing is good for economy at all 16:36:17 <Alberth> perhaps good for persons, but not for economy 16:36:30 <Hirundo> economy = amount of $ moved around 16:36:32 <planetmaker> it depends I think on where you put the barriers 16:36:38 * Rubidium wonders what license a cadaver falls under :) 16:36:40 <Hirundo> free downloading = less $ 16:36:49 <Alberth> Hirundo: exactly 16:36:51 <Ruudjah> we better move money around in places where it helps economy somewhere 16:36:53 <planetmaker> Alberth, society is more important than economy - which is only a sub-part of society ;-) 16:37:04 <Ruudjah> If we can make sure artists get paid, they continue to make more stuff 16:37:14 <Hirundo> How do you do that? subsidize ? 16:37:22 <Ruudjah> we dont need to protect the artist's work, but we need to protect the _artists_ 16:37:47 <planetmaker> As such I beg to disagree 16:37:58 <Ruudjah> Thats a very good question which I frankly do not have wel-thought answer to. 16:38:07 <planetmaker> An artist lives of this unique ideas / unique ways to do / show / present <whatever> 16:38:18 <Hirundo> And the ill-thought answer? 16:38:35 <planetmaker> if you give that idea no credit and protection, the incentive to be inventive is gone 16:38:39 <Ruudjah> We do know: moving money to move information is not gonna help society nor society's economy much 16:38:53 <Ruudjah> we do give the idea credit 16:39:00 <planetmaker> Ruudjah, but it has to pay 16:39:02 <Ruudjah> by requiring to link through the source 16:39:09 <Ruudjah> planetmaker: yes 16:39:27 <Ruudjah> but not neccesarliy through information, we believe in services or expertise 16:39:43 <Ruudjah> ie Dutch most famous poet gives away his pets freely on the internet 16:39:49 <planetmaker> why would you pay 11 people chasing a ball â¬â¬â¬â¬ while a person performing on the national opera only ⬠16:39:51 <Ruudjah> *poets 16:40:02 <Ruudjah> but he makes money being on TV 16:40:13 <Ruudjah> making new poets in the TV program 16:40:20 <planetmaker> not if you cut the copyright and reproduction fees on film material 16:40:27 <Alberth> poems, I hope :) 16:40:29 <Ruudjah> he doesnt sell his poets, but he sells his service 16:40:30 <planetmaker> :-P 16:40:34 <Ruudjah> poems :) 16:40:41 <planetmaker> Poets might be possible, but only late at night :-P 16:40:41 <Hirundo> The famous poets, artists, sportsmen etc can get away with that 16:40:47 <Rubidium> planetmaker: because in an opera it is not done to chant offensive remarks and unlikely to see people get harmed 16:40:51 <Hirundo> The other 90% can and will not 16:41:09 <Ruudjah> less famous poets can make money in different ways 16:41:20 <Ruudjah> there is a poet putting his poems on his blog 16:41:26 <Ruudjah> making money from ads 16:41:27 <planetmaker> How so, if even the meagre margin made by a book is void after 5 years? 16:41:45 <Alberth> without copyright, there is no need for ads 16:41:46 <planetmaker> Making money with ads doesn't work even if you have a few hundret clicks per day 16:41:52 <planetmaker> (own experience) 16:41:54 <Ruudjah> selling information=futile in internetsociety where everyone can copy it anyways 16:42:02 <Hirundo> ^^ google ads won't feed you 16:42:15 <Hirundo> If you can't sell it, why create it in the first place? 16:42:21 <glx> and usually people use adblocks 16:42:21 <Alberth> so the poet stops making money 16:42:31 <Ruudjah> then probably putting those poems in a deadtree and selling that paper wont feed you either 16:42:45 <Alberth> bye bye art 16:42:49 <planetmaker> Yes, a book won't feed you, too; but it might give you a few thousand Euros once. And maybe a 2nd and third time less, but still, if it is re-printed 16:43:03 <planetmaker> The latter would simply be gone, if everything was free to copy after 5 years 16:43:14 <planetmaker> That'd be bad... it feeds the non-best-sellers 16:44:06 <planetmaker> People like those already have a scarce income, you'd cut it completely giving it away for free after a very short time 16:44:13 <Ruudjah> how is that different from the current situation? 16:44:34 <planetmaker> No one can sell their books without giving a royalty to the author. For their whole life 16:44:36 <Ruudjah> we only say: hey! this is going on _right now_, so let's all adapt 16:44:54 <Ruudjah> I may legally copy a book here in NL 16:45:11 <Ruudjah> legally have my own copy without paying the author/artist 16:45:11 <planetmaker> But you may not publish it 16:45:19 <planetmaker> and bring it to the stores 16:45:24 <Ruudjah> doesnt matter for the income of the author 16:45:24 <planetmaker> That's what you advocate, though 16:45:29 <planetmaker> it does big time! 16:45:33 <Ruudjah> no 16:45:51 <Ruudjah> if everyone can get their copy for free anyways, it doesnt cange the situation 16:46:03 <planetmaker> Sorry? If anyone could go and sell printed copies of my books I wrote - how would that NOT harm me? 16:46:12 <planetmaker> I'd starve to death 16:46:17 <Hirundo> ^^what pm said 16:46:20 <glx> planetmaker: just don't write it in first place 16:46:26 <planetmaker> glx, exactly 16:46:36 <planetmaker> But I know a number of people who live on exactly this. 16:46:42 <Ruudjah> me too 16:46:43 <planetmaker> They'd not be amused... very rightfully 16:46:45 <Ruudjah> and they agree 16:47:03 <Ruudjah> situation is not any different as it is now, at least in NL 16:47:05 <planetmaker> Ruudjah, how would they finance themselves, if they cannot live of what they wrote? 16:47:22 <Ruudjah> in a different way then selling the information 16:47:37 <Ruudjah> software industry is busy devleoping business models around this for over 25years 16:47:43 <Ruudjah> music industry about 10 years 16:48:02 <Ruudjah> book industry like 1 year, since good e-readers are massively on the market 16:48:23 <Ruudjah> thats why we say: give bookindustry time an opportuinities to reform their money making ways 16:48:30 <glx> but copyrights are not the problem 16:48:31 <Hirundo> a 25 year 'structural adjustment' (=recession) ?!? :o 16:48:32 <Ruudjah> so that they can make money of their services 16:48:34 <planetmaker> every bet that the authors get their share from any publication of their material 16:48:53 <planetmaker> it may only be like 50ct per 25⬠book. But still 16:48:55 <Ruudjah> since about 1985 software is OSS and business models are devloped around having OSS 16:49:09 <planetmaker> That's not working with books and arts 16:49:19 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC6174.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!] 16:49:20 <planetmaker> it's different things 16:49:23 <Ruudjah> thats a dangerous assumption 16:49:29 <planetmaker> yours is 16:49:32 <Ruudjah> which I think is untrue 16:49:36 <planetmaker> prove it. 16:49:53 <Ruudjah> I only need one artist to prove it 16:49:58 <glx> what service an actor can sell ? 16:50:02 <Ruudjah> which I already did: it is the dutch poet 16:50:03 <planetmaker> ^ 16:50:16 <planetmaker> what service can the author of a poem sell? 16:50:29 <Ruudjah> being in a TV program making poems about the TV show 16:50:39 <planetmaker> that can do one, two poets 16:50:43 <Hirundo> How many poets can make their money that way? ^^ 16:50:47 <glx> why would the TV pay for something free ? 16:50:54 <Ruudjah> its about finding new wasy to make money 16:50:54 <planetmaker> also ^ 16:51:02 <Ruudjah> that dutch poet found his way 16:51:10 <Ruudjah> more ways lead to rome 16:51:15 <planetmaker> because they CANNOT take it for free 16:51:17 <Ruudjah> everyone has to find their ways 16:51:37 <Ruudjah> software industry has already quite some ways, music industry also some ways 16:51:53 <glx> totally different markets 16:51:55 <planetmaker> so you take the income from most creative people and tell them "find your (new) way to make money?" 16:51:55 <Ruudjah> and new ways are appearing from the book/poem industry 16:51:58 <planetmaker> Genius! 16:52:06 <Ruudjah> no 16:52:16 <Ruudjah> we only reckon that this is going on anyways 16:52:27 <planetmaker> what is "this"? 16:52:45 <Ruudjah> making a copy for personal use enables all citizens not needing to pay for a book, music or other arts in digital form 16:53:00 <Ruudjah> right now they are f'd. 16:53:02 <glx> for music industry the problem is the majors 16:53:03 <planetmaker> that'd kill art 16:53:14 <planetmaker> if it's free for all 16:53:18 <Ruudjah> Here in NL, art is far from dead 16:53:28 <Ruudjah> it _IS_ free for all here in NL! 16:53:34 <planetmaker> it's not ;-) 16:53:44 <Ruudjah> well 16:53:58 <planetmaker> You may not download all music for free. 16:54:05 <Ruudjah> read the auteurswet of 1912, and all juridical precedents since 1990 16:54:11 <planetmaker> You may not sell a new edition of Harry Potter 16:54:19 <Alberth> just because almost all people do illegal things doesn't mean you have to assume that is the right way 16:54:33 <Ruudjah> effectively, it is legal to download software, books, music here in NL 16:54:44 <planetmaker> and you may not sell a movie of the latest theatre play 16:54:45 <Ruudjah> I am not saying I may sell harry potter 16:55:03 <planetmaker> but that's what you want 16:55:03 <Ruudjah> I am saying that citizens here in NL do not need to pay for a book, or poems, or music 16:55:24 <Ruudjah> and that will destroy some industries 16:55:26 * Alberth thinks that is broken 16:55:40 <Ruudjah> so we need not destroying of those industries 16:56:02 <planetmaker> You'd kill one of your big money printers: Elsevier 16:56:03 <Ruudjah> but making sure they can earn money while in an internetage 16:56:21 <Ruudjah> Elsevier needs business model reform anyways 16:56:26 <Ruudjah> they are dying right now 16:56:32 <Ruudjah> slowly 16:56:36 <planetmaker> sure they do. That's why I don't publish in their journals. 16:56:50 <planetmaker> But they're surely not dying ;-) 16:57:19 <Ruudjah> I do think they are dying if they continue to monetize purely on information 16:57:43 *** KOT [~chatzilla@94-192-239-122.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:58:16 <Ruudjah> but in some markets elsevier is shrinking 16:59:41 *** NukeBuster [~wouter@80.101.115.82] has joined #openttd 16:59:41 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:44 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dreamxtre@client-86-27-26-146.glfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:04:36 <KOT> hi all 17:04:55 <KOT> can anuy1 explain how to connect to servers?? 17:07:26 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.162.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:29 <Alberth> @ports 17:07:30 <DorpsGek> Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound) 17:08:31 <Alberth> those are the ports you need to enable 17:09:07 <__ln__> @ports KOT 17:09:07 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Invalid arguments for port. 17:09:07 <glx> theorically clients don't need to open anything 17:09:34 <KOT> u mean in the game or in the firewall ?? 17:09:35 <Alberth> yeah, I thought so to after studying the text 17:09:54 <Alberth> too* 17:10:01 <__ln__> glx: except open ttd! 17:10:05 <KOT> ow ok let me try this brb 17:10:05 <glx> firewall and router, but only if you want to host a server 17:10:25 <KOT> no i just want to join a server :) 17:11:18 <KOT> ok got it now :) 17:12:35 <Alberth> many firewalls allow outgoing connections by default, so there you should not need to enable a port, if I understand it correctly 17:12:41 <Alberth> +routers 17:13:02 <KOT> dont worry i got router set :) 17:13:28 <glx> and when they don't, they usually just ask when the connection starts 17:19:54 *** KOT_ [~chatzilla@94-192-239-122.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:22:33 *** KOT [~chatzilla@94-192-239-122.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:22:37 *** KOT_ is now known as KOT 17:37:50 *** KOT [~chatzilla@94-192-239-122.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 17:38:42 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 17:39:27 *** Ruudjah [~ruud_pout@ip94-126-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #openttd [] 17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19941 /trunk/src/lang/ (luxembourgish.txt romanian.txt russian.txt): 17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 31 changes by Phreeze 17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by kkmic 17:45:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf 17:50:47 *** APTX [~APTX@chello089076052083.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:50:53 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has joined #openttd 17:50:56 *** APTX [~APTX@chello089076052083.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 17:54:06 *** TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:57:00 *** Macha [~macha@93.107.208.250] has joined #openttd 17:57:19 <Macha> I'm doing a co-operative game between a few friends: How do I prevent people changing the company password? 17:58:33 <Alberth> set it yourself? 17:59:01 <Alberth> but otherwise not afaik 17:59:44 <Macha> Co-op as in everyone will be using the same company. (Like openttdcoop). What openttdcoop seem to do is have a bot change the password every so often, but that's a lot of hassle to go to. 17:59:51 <Alberth> but it is a bit weird, you trust them for a co-operative game, but not with the passwd ? 18:00:01 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:00:07 <frosch123> coop has a server password, no company password, does it? 18:01:45 <Alberth> openttdcoop does it to force people onto their irc channel I think 18:02:08 <Macha> Alberth: A few friends who often play openTTD from a forum, and a few RL friends. I can't put it past one of the RL ones to go: "Oh, I'm bored, let's change the password. Haha". 18:03:39 <Alberth> that seems more harmless than 'oh I am bored, lets remove all tracks from the game 18:04:19 <Alberth> ie if you cannot trust them with the pwd, why do you trust them with the game? 18:04:37 <Macha> Alberth: Fair point 18:06:53 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3791.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:11:17 <andythenorth> evening 18:11:25 * andythenorth has finished work for today...ish 18:11:38 <andythenorth> could be time for some OTTD 18:13:11 *** asilv [~as@88.193.30.158] has joined #openttd 18:13:46 <frosch123> real work :p 18:15:54 * andythenorth ponders 18:16:13 <andythenorth> should I (a) make feature requests which mostly but not always go into some kind of dev/null or 18:16:23 <andythenorth> (b) stop FIRS crashing in arctic climate? 18:17:08 <frosch123> (c) stop ottd crashing on first in arctic 18:17:11 *** Macha1 [~macha@109.77.88.250] has joined #openttd 18:17:48 <Rubidium> (d) start learning C, C++, Object C, Object C++, OpenTTD's structure and Apple's SDKs in an effort to revive the Mac OS X port, including maintaining the Object C++ front-end of GCC 18:18:07 *** Macha [~macha@93.107.208.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:18:26 <frosch123> (e) offer apple to fix their os 18:18:34 * andythenorth votes b / c 18:18:36 <andythenorth> and it's done :P 18:18:54 <andythenorth> (d) looks more time consuming 18:20:30 <Alberth> a longer journey to enjoy :) 18:24:09 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:58 * andythenorth thought this was a rather nice patch :P 18:28:59 <andythenorth> http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/nearby_industries.diff 18:30:21 <andythenorth> hmm 18:30:47 <andythenorth> is it just me.....or are most default industries quite free of snow in arctic? 18:30:57 <andythenorth> perhaps they have good janitors :P 18:31:16 *** fjb [~frank@p5485E47F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:31:23 <frosch123> default industries cannot distinguish snow when drawing 18:31:40 <frosch123> so only the only-appears-above-snowline-forest has snow graphics 18:34:08 <andythenorth> interesting :o 18:35:40 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:38:03 <andythenorth> meanwhile....if I check the newly-available var A7 during cb 28, do I need to think about backwards compatibility? 18:42:03 *** Macha1 [~macha@109.77.88.250] has left #openttd [] 18:46:36 <Hirundo> A variable that is not available makes the varaction2 code select the first group, independent of its range 18:56:12 <fjb> Moin 19:02:24 <andythenorth> Hirundo: thanks 19:03:57 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc3791.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:04:58 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 19:10:43 *** mucht_home [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:48 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 19:19:10 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-39-3.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:33:47 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:37:16 *** aui [~aui@cpe-66-75-19-121.san.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 19:38:56 *** aui [~aui@cpe-66-75-19-121.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:39:09 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:40:10 *** lasershock [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:11 *** lasershock [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 19:43:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19942 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix [FS#3871](r19816): Vertical dragging of rail was broken. 19:46:01 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 19:46:01 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [] 19:50:24 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:37 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 19:53:19 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has joined #openttd 19:53:19 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:43 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:55:11 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BD47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19943 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp widget.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3865]: Disallow moving of vehicle news window. 19:57:14 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: .] 19:58:06 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:58:12 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-172-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:59:56 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-69-69.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 19:59:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 20:00:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19944 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): Open vehicle view when clicking on the caption of vehicle news. 20:00:57 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust443.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:04:46 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC7E3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:08:39 *** asilv [~as@88.193.30.158] has quit [] 20:13:54 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: heffer] 20:15:27 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BD47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:24:59 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@5acca387.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 20:30:43 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0bdf11.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:30:43 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 20:32:26 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:34:38 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:36:56 *** Macha [~macha@109.77.88.250] has joined #openttd 20:37:08 <andythenorth> anyone want to weigh in on the great FIRS Aluminium Plant controversy? :P 20:38:14 <PeterT> "hmm 20:38:15 <PeterT> looks a little too shiny to me... 20:38:15 <PeterT> but then that's just my opinion, which doesn't matter :roll: 20:38:15 <PeterT> awesome graphics as usual anyway :bow:" 20:38:20 <PeterT> very descriptive... 20:38:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19945 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19755-ish): Allow turning of roadvehicles while waiting in a queue (again). 20:45:10 <Alberth> aluminium does not weigh that much :) 20:45:32 <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, aluminium plant? 20:45:36 <ccfreak2k> Perhaps I should... 20:45:39 <ccfreak2k> reflect on it. 20:45:41 <ccfreak2k> B| 20:45:45 <ccfreak2k> (yeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhh) 20:45:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's some point to "it looks quite generic now" 20:46:04 <andythenorth> ccfreak2k: well that's about as helpful as the other comments :) 20:46:05 *** JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:46:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yep 20:46:12 <planetmaker> on the other hand I find the original one quite bulky 20:46:15 <andythenorth> yep 20:46:25 <planetmaker> what a bout a two-tile wide hall with 3 tiles length or so. 20:46:29 <planetmaker> And adding some side buildings 20:46:46 <planetmaker> like the transformator. An office. Whatever 20:46:53 <andythenorth> I reckon they're missing the A-frame shed 20:46:55 *** Jolteon [~jolt@ip21.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:55 *** welshdragon [~dragon@ip05.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:55 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:58 <planetmaker> ? 20:47:14 <andythenorth> planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=129752 20:47:18 <andythenorth> the building on the right 20:47:52 <planetmaker> I see graphics, I see the words, but don't understand the latter 20:48:09 <Alberth> I also thought it was another industry 20:48:13 <planetmaker> the over-sized toilet building? 20:48:18 <andythenorth> II think the players posting forum feedback probably like the large piece-of-cheese building :) 20:48:47 <Alberth> looks almost like a green house 20:48:51 <andythenorth> I have drawn a smaller version of that which I might restore 20:49:02 <Ammler> why not, another nice feature of FIRS is (was) the bigger industries 20:49:24 <andythenorth> Ammler: one reason is that it makes them very unlikely to get placed on anything other than flat maps 20:49:35 <andythenorth> flat, smooth maps 20:49:43 <Ammler> can't you have different layouts? 20:50:11 <Ammler> I guess, pbi has something like that for the quarry 20:50:31 <andythenorth> when the building is made up of one 3x4 and one 4x4 building the layout variation is limited 20:50:34 <Ammler> firs has that too :-) 20:50:37 <andythenorth> better to use more smaller tiles 20:51:37 <andythenorth> in the original sprites....the building on the left can be recreated with the new tiles I've drawn, I just haven't done the layout yet :o 20:55:59 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:05 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:59:28 <planetmaker> hm... what property defines whether an industry closes? 20:59:46 <planetmaker> or a callback which I miss? 21:01:43 <andythenorth> cb for monthly production change or random production change 21:02:19 <planetmaker> and an industry closes when...? 21:02:53 <andythenorth> when 04 80 is returned to the cb? 21:02:56 <planetmaker> (I try to get rid of eternal power plants, water towers and banks 21:02:56 <frosch123> prop 0B ? 21:03:30 <andythenorth> 0h = black hole, never closes? 21:03:40 <frosch123> "Setting this property to 0 means no production changes and no closing, like e.g. the power station." 21:04:25 <planetmaker> oh. So property 0B is sufficient for my case :-) 21:05:03 <frosch123> btw. this property shows a common disease of assembler programmers: using bitmasks even if only one value can be present at a time 21:05:34 <planetmaker> hm, yeah 21:07:52 *** orudge_ [~orudge@75-149-149-225-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:43 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust443.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:08:50 *** Macha [~macha@109.77.88.250] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:09:50 <frosch123> night 21:10:02 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF85EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:10:05 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff408.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:17 <ccfreak2k> 0Black hole. 21:12:27 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 21:13:00 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B770FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:14:56 *** welshdragon [~dragon@ip05.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 21:16:12 <andythenorth> bah 21:16:18 <andythenorth> I need to set bit 7 21:16:55 <andythenorth> done 21:25:13 *** orudge_ [~orudge@75-149-149-225-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #openttd 21:26:00 *** Yso [~spam@215-196.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 21:29:18 *** Fast2_ [~Fast2@p57AF886D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:34:14 *** Chillosophy [~fu@195-241-120-76.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [] 21:34:57 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF85EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:35:00 *** Fast2_ is now known as Fast2 21:35:54 * andythenorth is baffled 21:36:53 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Quit: Quit] 21:37:20 <andythenorth> bah 21:37:27 <andythenorth> clustering industries on the map is not very easy 21:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you could put the first N coal mines randomly, and the next ones only if another mine is already nearby 21:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> where N depends on map size 21:42:22 <andythenorth> yup 21:43:43 <andythenorth> that means using var 67 :) 21:43:47 <andythenorth> not tonight 21:43:55 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 21:47:51 *** orudge_ [~orudge@75-149-149-225-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:52:45 *** fjb [~frank@p5485E47F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:57 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF886D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:08:27 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:10:20 *** bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has quit [Quit: Quit] 22:17:21 *** fjb [~frank@p5485E47F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:20:27 *** NukeBuster [~wouter@80.101.115.82] has left #openttd [] 22:37:34 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BD47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:00 *** Forked [~kjetil@presenterer.formye.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:56:13 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:20 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:03:02 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2DB1A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Regel Nr. 1: Jeder hört auf mein Kommando! - Regel Nr. 2: Jeder bleibt auf dem Weg! - Regel Nr. 3: ... ... Der, der blÀht, als hinterster geht!] 23:08:09 <Rubidium> hmm, what parameters should you give to sort so it doesn't ignore characters like '[' ? 23:14:59 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> LC_ALL=C? 23:32:10 <Rubidium> that seems to work 23:32:16 <Rubidium> so, thanks! 23:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it does say that in the man page ;) 23:32:47 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has joined #openttd 23:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> at least that looked closest like the thing you asked for 23:34:06 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 23:34:08 <Rubidium> ah, now I see it... they did a good job hiding that in plain sight! :) 23:49:38 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.152.224] has joined #openttd