Config
Log for #openttd on 21st July 2010:
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00:06:30  <devilsadvocate> k. time to give up this game and start afresh
00:06:43  <devilsadvocate> turns out i've lost more routes than i first realized
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00:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anyone has a quick-and-dirty method to strip all characters from a file until it hits a "\n\n"?
00:47:12  <Eddi|zuHause> preferably using an easy scripting language
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00:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> f=open('30f36d3db0f3310677edb9e53f0356fca2f5d126','rb')
00:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> while len(f.next())>1: pass
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00:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems to do it.
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01:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... next question, how do i quickly join many images into one "mosaique"
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01:46:52  <VVG> I know with irfanview you can easily create a panorama image, both vertical or horizontal, out of a batch of images.
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02:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> next problem, i'm missing a few images
02:12:22  <VVG> that's easy - make them :p
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06:12:35  <andythenorth> morning
06:16:00  <Terkhen> good morning
06:17:25  <dihedral> sugarcrm is annoying :-(
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06:43:11  <Pikka> good morning herr andythenorth
06:43:24  <Pikka> and other likeminded folk
06:43:47  <andythenorth> hi monsieur Pikka
06:45:01  <andythenorth> bonnet de douche
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06:53:48  <Pikka> charming
06:53:53  <orudge> yes, yes you are
06:57:14  <Pikka> it's donald!
06:57:29  <orudge> lies
06:57:58  * Pikka has had an offer of lemon chicken and must depart forthwith
07:22:33  <Pikka> at least
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08:21:13  <fjb> Moin.
08:23:25  <Pikka> oui
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09:17:54  <__ln__> http://kuvaton.com/browse/15255/comic_sans.jpg
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09:19:36  <dihedral> lol
09:19:46  <dihedral> that looks like __ln__ himself was at work :-D
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09:50:47  <dihedral> http://kuvaton.com/browse/15205/missy_cat.jpg
09:55:33  <Rubidium> boring...
09:55:45  <Rubidium> or should I say... old
10:00:20  <peter1138> i'd not seen it
10:04:23  <Forked> me neither
10:04:29  <Forked> but I have that stupid double rainbow song in my head :\
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10:20:11  <TrueBrain> dihedral: if you want to give the url to that page, use the right one: http://www.27bslash6.com/missy.html
10:20:36  <TrueBrain> there are all his 'funny' conversations
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10:33:58  <__ln__> indeed 'funny' only in quotes.. assuming that story is even true.
10:35:42  <TrueBrain> they are fiction
10:35:49  <TrueBrain> David Thorne writes fiction, in columns mostly
10:36:06  <TrueBrain> mostly it has some feedback to the real world, but that is about it
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10:55:52  * Pikka muahahaha
10:55:55  <Pikka> it works!
11:05:55  <Pikka> except for that little bit there...
11:14:46  <Pikka> durrrrrrrrrr
11:14:49  * Pikka slaps self
11:15:16  <peter1138> DURRRRRRR
11:16:32  <Pikka> okay
11:16:37  <Pikka> that works, except it doesn't.
11:17:01  <Pikka> to flyspreys!
11:17:33  <Pikka> well
11:17:36  <Pikka> to the changelog first
11:18:39  <Pikka> hmm
11:20:00  <Pikka> this behaviour looks desyncful perhaps...?
11:20:57  <Pikka> callback 10 (Powered wagons and visual effect) is not updated when changing railtype...
11:21:41  <Pikka> my class 73s are working perfectly except for that :)
11:22:13  <Yexo> "and is only called when loading a game or when rearranging the train in a depot" from the spec
11:22:46  <Pikka> Yexo: well that's wrong at least, it is also called when they train reverses
11:22:48  <Yexo> if you use the new variable "current railtype" than it might indeed be a possible desync
11:22:51  <Pikka> -y
11:22:58  <Pikka> and I do, indeed :)
11:23:17  <Yexo> could you make a very small testcase for that?
11:23:29  <Pikka> yep
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11:30:24  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20199 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#3964]: NewGRFs that defined a vehicle without either loaded or loading groups could crash OpenTTD
11:34:47  <Pikka> Yexo: http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/test.zip
11:35:43  <Pikka> should spark under wires and blow steam on regular rails
11:36:42  <Ammler> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/img/wiki_up//coordinates3d.png <-- what does this "16" mean?
11:38:05  <Yexo> the size of the tile
11:40:13  <Ammler> but how do you get "16"?
11:41:41  <Ammler> I would mean, it is the half of the y of the tile
11:41:47  <Ammler> 15+1
11:42:21  <Yexo> I don't think it has a direct relation with the graphics
11:42:30  <Yexo> it's just the position openttd uses to index positions within a tile
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11:46:03  <Eddi|zuHause> TTD has a 16x16 grid overlay over the tile, where positions (e.g. of vehicles) can be aligned
11:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that is the lowest step a vehicle can travel
11:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe tiles are 64 pixels wide and 32 pixels high, +-1
11:47:21  <Narcissus> can someone link me to guide about "running a dedi openttd server"
11:47:28  <Narcissus> can't find anything obvious on the wiki
11:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so a step along this grid is one pixel up/down and two pixels left/right
11:47:50  <Yexo> tried this http://wiki.openttd.org/Dedicated_server ?
11:47:56  <Alberth> Narcissus: the forums, most likely the general questions
11:48:07  <Narcissus> Yexo: thanks :)
11:48:09  <Alberth> Narcissus: and perhaps make a guide at  the wiki too?
11:48:12  <Narcissus> Alberth: I will have a look, thanks
11:48:33  <Yexo> and as Alberth says, if you encounter any omissions / errors on the wiki please do correct them
11:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> (but take this information with a grain of salt)
11:50:09  <Alberth> Narcissus: at least an obvious link is missing
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11:53:05  <Ammler> my problem is how do I offset a sprite, which would need a full 16x16 bounding box but has a 14x11 box
11:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
11:54:13  <Ammler> basically this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=891054#p891054
11:54:23  <Ammler> 	M( 0xf54, PAL_NONE,  0x5b5, PAL_NONE,  1,  3, 14, 11,   7, 0),
11:54:58  <Ammler>   384 sprites/pcx/buildings.pcx 675 2472 09 87 64 -31 -56
11:55:07  <Ammler> I need to change -31 -56
11:55:40  <Ammler> I just wonder, if there is some formula, or if I need to adjust every single house manually
11:55:47  <Ammler> which has no standard box
11:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> change to what?
11:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't understand what you are trying to do
11:57:22  <Ammler> just look the other examples in that thread, the houses are misaligned, but that is because of the bounding box
11:57:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the formulas to transform 3D into 2D coordinates are in RemapCoords
11:57:55  <Ammler> the houses which use 16x16 are fine
11:58:24  <Narcissus> one more question: where can I get AIs?
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11:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> from the "check online content" button on the title menu
11:58:51  <Ammler> Narcissus: tried readme?
11:59:28  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: any link?
12:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: "grep RemapCoords src/*.h"
12:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> or something...
12:02:26  <Alberth> src/landscape.h  :)
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12:03:15  <Alberth> src/tile_type.h:static const uint TILE_SIZE      = 16;            ///< Tiles are 16x16 "units" in size
12:03:44  <Alberth> ie TILE_SIZE positions
12:04:55  <Alberth> but that is the logical position of a vehicle at a tile, and not directly related to graphics
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12:08:34  <__ln__> http://kuvaton.com/browse/15221/gps_turn_left_failure.jpg
12:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, if you have a coordinate of like (11,5,8) you go 11*2 pixels left, 5*2 pixels right, 11 pixels down, 5 pixels down and 8 pixels up, so you have (11-5)*2=12, (11+5-8)=8. reverse the axis, so you get (-12,8) as screen coordinate
12:09:52  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: are you able to use my example above?
12:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i understand no part of that example
12:10:45  <Ammler> the first is the bounding box, 2nd is the sprite
12:11:11  <Ammler> which needs a 16x16 box with pos 0,0
12:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: lots of numbers with no explanation
12:12:15  <Ammler> M(s1, p1, s2, p2, sx, sy, w, h, dz, p) sx, sy = position, w,h,dz = box
12:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so... do i understand you right now: you have a sprite, and put xrel=-31 yrel=-56, but that was calculated relatively to top corner of tile (0,0,0). now you must modify this relative to top corner of bounding box (1,3,0)?
12:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> if so, then the remapping of (1,3,0) results in (-(1-3)*2,(1+3-0)) = (2,4)
12:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so you must adjust your xrel/yrel by this number, not entirely sure about direction
12:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> er... (4,4)
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12:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> is that anywhere close to your solution?
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12:24:44  <Ammler> where do you calc with the box?
12:24:47  <Ammler> 14x11
12:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the size is relevant, only the position
12:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> or i still don't understand your problem
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12:26:31  <Ammler> you don't see the ugly missalignments of the houses in the screens?
12:28:53  <Ammler> hmm, -35 -60 might be the solution
12:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that's pretty close to what i calculated, move 4 up and 4 left
12:29:09  <Ammler> yep
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12:30:04  <Belugas> hello
12:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but of course the real solution was to redo the bounding box...
12:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause> good morning, Belugas
12:30:22  <Ammler> halÌ Belugas
12:30:59  <Belugas> good afternoon to both of you :)
12:31:06  <Ammler> yes, someone already suggested that in the thread, but how should that be possible without screwing original sprites
12:31:38  <Ammler> or do you mean, we should replace those houses with newgrf?
12:31:59  <Ammler> is that possible at all?
12:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea
12:32:20  <Belugas> mmh?
12:32:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the other solution is draw a house that fits into the bounding box
12:32:41  <Ammler> Belugas: opengfx houses have other bounding boxes then ttd originals
12:32:44  <Belugas> wadyatalkabooot?
12:32:48  <Ammler> so our offsets are screwed
12:32:54  <Belugas> ho... bad bad bad
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12:33:01  <Ammler> yes yes yes :-)
12:33:06  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=131984&sid=1e5fdfa5c432f38a6ef7cb4a310973ec
12:34:07  <Rubidium> ooh... session ids
12:34:19  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: basically I just need to multiplicate x*2
12:34:27  <Ammler> then it should work
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12:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: err... what?
12:35:12  <Ammler> no
12:35:35  <Belugas> mmmh... i see
12:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (x-y)*2 for xrel, and (x+y) for yrel
12:35:42  <Alberth> Belugas: hello
12:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause> plus sign adjustment
12:35:51  <Belugas> hi hi Alberth :)
12:38:06  <Belugas> so... what you were thinking was to have a grf correcting the offset of that house (or maybe more) which is in opengfx
12:38:08  <Belugas> mmh...
12:38:15  <Belugas> don't think it's possible
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12:41:59  <Ammler> I am not sure, if it is easier, now we just need to adjust non-standard houses
12:42:40  <Belugas> why not a new release?
12:42:45  <Ammler> of?
12:44:15  <Ammler> can't change max. loan from a save
12:44:16  <Alberth>  http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/industry_chain3.png   looks nice, doesn't it?
12:44:22  <Ammler> even not in sp
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12:47:59  <Ammler> indeed nice Alberth :-)
12:49:05  <Belugas> of opengfx.  not possible?
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12:49:41  <Belugas> BLINKS BLINKS at Alberth's URL
12:50:44  * Yexo wonders how that will look like for the "... supplies' cargo industries in firs
12:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: interesting, but the "stubs" at the cargo names, are they necessary?
12:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i find them confusing
12:50:55  <Alberth> now if only clicking, rtl support, and the same kind of picture but around a cargo instead of an industry, would work :p
12:51:06  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like some industry is missing there...
12:51:59  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I am drawing cargoes around the central industry only, not all the other industries
12:52:10  <Terkhen> yeah, it looks nice :)
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12:52:28  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: but you should be able to click at it in the future, and get the view around that confusing cargo
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12:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i mean where you write "Iron Ore"
12:53:01  <Yexo> Alberth: in any case it's impressive work!
12:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that should probably be fit into the red area, not next to it with a "stub"
12:53:21  <Alberth> it should be for the amount of lines :)
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12:55:44  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I am currently already happy that you can see what a cargo connection carries. There are plenty of more important missing things to fix first
12:57:27  <Ammler> Belugas: it will need a new release of opengfx anyway
12:57:28  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: there is at least a readability issue with your solution; bright yellow background with white text does not work nicely (grain colour).
12:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: maybe write the cargo name at the "input" and "output" of the industry (inside the rect)
12:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so the "cargo line" only connects industries
12:59:16  <Alberth> at both input and output?  that will make the industries much wider, I think
12:59:38  <Belugas> mmh... houses... that reminds me of something i started
12:59:45  <Belugas> and nce again not finished...
13:00:34  <Alberth> Belugas: 9801 revisions until the next party :p
13:03:14  <Belugas> :D
13:03:51  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: xrel=(1-3)*2=-4 -> -31+-4=-35 (OK) / yrel: (1+3)=4 -> -56+4=-52 (should be -60)
13:04:04  <Ammler> so can I just assume, it is - for yrel?
13:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i said "plus sign adjustment"
13:04:18  <Terkhen> IMO showing that amount of info around a cargo would be nice but not strictly required
13:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i mean something like this: http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/industry_chain3_mockup.png
13:06:03  <Alberth> yes, but you don't have the space
13:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can make sure that you don't have an input and an output on the same line
13:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so you shift the problem to making the industries higher
13:08:09  <Alberth> you can in general have 1 text at one line, you you need 1 line extra for the industry name, and 2 lines extra for one of the sides.
13:08:18  <Alberth> ie make the industry types twice as high
13:09:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you can fit 3 lines in the current rect
13:09:23  <Alberth> yes
13:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that's industry name + 2 cargos
13:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> for industries with more cargos, like the factory, you can make it higher
13:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> adjusting height is way less problematic in a layout like this
13:10:42  <Alberth> except you have 3 accepting cargoes, 2 produced cargoes + the name of the industry, 6 lines
13:10:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see that as a problem
13:11:24  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20200 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3930]: terraform and extra viewport hotkeys didn't work in the scenario editor (jawsper)
13:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> except for making the height dynamic, which is a coding problem, not a design problem
13:11:34  <Alberth> and if you want to do it nicely, you need also some space to show the colour of the industry
13:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you can do that in a small rect next to the industry name?
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13:12:46  <Alberth> the box is calculated to fit any of the strings, and the industry type name may be the longest
13:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you really want to bargain for every pixel here? :)
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13:15:10  <Alberth> current line count is in the order of 860 lines, and there are lots of things not yet done.
13:15:28  <Alberth> to make progress, I'd rather finish those things first
13:15:43  <Alberth> however, if you feel like having a go, I can give you my current patch
13:16:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not touching GUI code :p
13:16:56  <Alberth> it's not gui code, it's window drawing code :p
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13:17:32  <Alberth> ie it does not do graphical user interaction :p
13:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> drawing _IS_ a graphical user interaction :p
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13:23:33  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: I'd say it's a graphical interace, not necesarily interaction
13:23:52  <Yexo> s/interace/interface/
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13:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> I is I...
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13:33:36  <Celestar> morning
13:33:53  <Alberth> hello Celestar
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13:43:15  <VVG> hello
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13:53:44  <robotboy> hello
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14:01:18  <Ammler> this loading random game, if save fails is the worst you ever made...
14:01:25  *** APTX [~APTX@chello089076052083.chello.pl] has joined #openttd
14:01:32  <Ammler> who suggested such crap?
14:02:28  <Ammler> those people really should be forced to admin a server
14:03:36  <SpComb> bug?
14:04:04  <Ammler> yes it is, but some might call it feature :'-(
14:04:30  * robotboy waits while DOS moves all the DJGPP zips of his USB Key
14:04:45  <robotboy> I wouldn't want it on my DOS machine
14:06:51  <Ammler> also debug_level ai is 0 but those are still listed in the console
14:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't understand it either...
14:07:08  <Eddi|zuHause> if loading fails, it should obviously quit with an error...
14:07:14  <Ammler> hmm, that might now be a real bug
14:07:57  <Ammler> well, loading the intro game was fine too, at least you saw immediately, that something is wrong
14:09:17  <Belugas> mmh...
14:09:28  <Belugas> lottsa changes in dare
14:09:42  * robotboy wonders if compiling for DOS using DJGPP is anything like compiiling for linux as DJGPP is a DOS port of GCC and some of the GNU utils
14:10:38  <Yexo> Ammler: I think the reasoning was: if openttd quits you can't load another (the good one) savegame via rcon
14:10:58  <Yexo> same with loading the intro game, you can't join the server becaue it'll desync (and what if the intro screen is the savegame that fails?)
14:11:00  <Ammler> Yexo: you ned to restart openttd anyway
14:11:13  <Yexo> why?
14:11:16  <Ammler> since openttd doesn't reload fresh banans grfs
14:11:38  <Yexo> is there no console command for that?
14:11:49  <Ammler> oh, is there?
14:12:00  <Yexo> dunno, there is "reload_ais" for AIs
14:12:37  <Ammler> why does it need a command?
14:12:53  <Ammler> shouldn't it be just reload after "content download"
14:13:00  <Yexo> yes, it should
14:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> nasty insects season still not over... still can't open my window
14:13:39  <Ammler> well, if that would be possible, I see sense to not quit openttd :-)
14:13:52  <Rubidium> robotboy: it is
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14:14:00  <robotboy> thanx
14:18:39  <Ammler> hmm, is the ai debug_level fixed in trunk?
14:18:44  <Ammler> seems there it is ok
14:28:25  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20201 /trunk/src/ (order_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.cpp): -Feature [FS#3926]: add several new hotkeys to the global hotkey list and to the order windows. None of them has a default keybinding.
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14:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there code to get the map-coordinates of the upper left and the lower right corner of the screen?
14:33:24  <Alberth> in small-map, I think
14:33:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and where is the _screen variable defined?
14:33:58  <Alberth> or in viewport
14:35:17  <Alberth> _screen is in gfx_func.h, line 64
14:35:33  <Alberth> but there you don't have coords any more, afaik
14:36:12  <Alberth> position calculation from a click in a viewport may be what you are looking for
14:36:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah... something like that
14:37:55  <Alberth> viewport_gui.cpp
14:38:26  <Alberth> line 111 and further look interesting
14:38:57  <robotboy> do  I need any extra libraries on top of the normal extra libs (I have allegro) for compiling on dos
14:39:26  <Rubidium> you mean besides zlib and liblzo?
14:39:42  <Rubidium> maybe you want libpng as well
14:40:06  <glx> btw there's no guarantee it will run on real hardware :)
14:40:24  <Rubidium> glx: I seem to remember robotboy running my binary on real hardware once
14:40:33  <glx> he's lucky
14:40:40  <Rubidium> and it should still compile
14:41:00  <Rubidium> unless someone broke it very recently
14:41:32  <robotboy> I did run it on the hardware im preping with DJGPP
14:41:59  <Rubidium> yep... it still compiles
14:42:05  <robotboy> I wrote a wiki article on how to get it running if you have access to the binary
14:42:11  <robotboy> good
14:42:12  <Rubidium> (cross-compiles that is)
14:42:28  <Rubidium> I've got lzo, zlib, libpng and allegro linked
14:49:49  * robotboy waits while windows unzip everything unto his USB Key
14:50:26  <Narcissus> uhm
14:50:40  <Narcissus> how do I associate an IRC channel here to my server
14:51:26  <frosch123> maybe with autopilot
14:51:55  <frosch123> or autopilot+ or whatever is current :)
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15:12:10  <andythenorth> hi hi
15:14:00  <robotboy> im geusing all the libs should go into the include dir within the DJGPP dir
15:14:21  <robotboy> I'm not doing anymore work on compiling until the morning
15:14:24  <Rubidium> dunno... never actually compile on DOS, just cross-compiled stuff
15:14:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume libs go into the libs dir, and headers into the include dir...
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15:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but i never set up an environment like that manually
15:15:56  <robotboy> ok
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15:51:22  <TomyLobo> hi
15:52:12  <TomyLobo> is there a newgrf or something that makes the pathfinding "shadows" more visible on maglev (and on monorail too)?
15:52:36  <Yexo> don't think so
15:53:03  <Rubidium> there probably isn't, but it's arguably not very hard to make such a NewGRF as it's just replacing some sprites
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15:53:39  <Yexo> it's some recoloring sprites I think, the same as are used for crashed vehicles
15:55:03  <robotboy> gnight
15:57:51  <Rubidium> what... you're bailing out already? :(
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16:02:15  <robotboy> no
16:02:24  <robotboy> its 2:02 AM
16:04:25  <Markk> Nope, it's 6:04 PM.
16:04:25  <Markk> :)
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16:05:33  <TomyLobo> eurocentrism!
16:05:51  <Rubidium> it's 1405 UTC
16:06:19  <TomyLobo> that'd put cet at utc+4
16:06:22  <TomyLobo> so i doubt that :)
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16:06:41  <Markk> :D
16:07:13  <Rubidium> oh... you are so close minded... relativity
16:07:21  <TomyLobo> 16:07 utc
16:08:31  <Rubidium> I'm so full of myself that I've got higher gravitational fields and thus time goes slower for me (i.e. time dilation)
16:10:14  <Rubidium> that's why GPS always messes up when I'm around
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16:11:40  <Alberth> oh, you are not in a boat somewhere at the ocean?
16:13:00  <Rubidium> Alberth: no, I'm in what "De Bilt" could call the tropics (at least there's tropical weather around here)
16:15:12  <Rubidium> TomyLobo: it would put CET at UTC+3 (and CEST at UTC+4)
16:15:25  * Alberth ponders how temperature influences time itself, or failing that, ones time reading abilities
16:15:53  <Rubidium> Alberth: who said temperature influences time?
16:16:07  <Rubidium> I said gravitational fields influence time
16:16:38  <Alberth> they do, but hours difference?
16:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, temperature is an expression of rapid movement, and thus also subject to theory of relativity
16:16:54  <Alberth> we need pm to decide whether that is even possible
16:17:49  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: sounds like a good thesis for a Ph.D.
16:17:52  <Rubidium> Alberth: Europe and the US are moving away; you won't notice it, unless you take a measurement now and one in 20000 years
16:18:11  <Rubidium> same with time...
16:18:19  <Alberth> hmm, not fast enough to bother about it :)
16:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, local time movement also depends on your height above earth center
16:19:07  <Alberth> of course, given that earth is round-ish, the US is also coming closer...
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16:20:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if they stop the oil spill with an atomic bomb, like the russians suggested, it might open up a new tectonic rift ;)
16:21:00  <Alberth> that may be the least of our problems in such a case :p
16:21:06  <Rubidium> but then it'll just start flowing somewhere else... like China
16:21:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i would think it might be a fairly effective solution
16:21:58  <Belugas> the russians actually did nuked a well, back in the 70
16:22:04  <Belugas> a well or more
16:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the problems the americans have with that is that it's already public, and the public doesn't like anything that has "nuclear" in it...
16:23:30  <Rubidium> I'd say... make a dam between Florida and Cuba, and Cuba and Mexico... and slowly drain the water from the bottom
16:24:02  <Belugas> plus, the geology of the guld is not known enough.  So a nuclear plug could eventually collapse the "roof" of the floor and make an incredible disaster
16:24:12  <Rubidium> problem solved... oil won't go into the water anymore (only rainwater getting into the oil)
16:24:36  <enr1x> hi guys
16:24:48  <enr1x> has onyone gotten openttd running on os x snow leopard_
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16:25:08  <Rubidium> people claim they have
16:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> none of the devs have a mac to actually test it.
16:26:01  <enr1x> ah ok
16:26:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a wiki page on compiling on mac, even in spanish ;)
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16:26:34  <enr1x> i'll try to compile then
16:26:52  <enr1x> with a 30Mbps line, it's a moment to download Xcode and try
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16:48:30  <Alberth> downloading is not the core problem :p
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16:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> he should get used to a .3 Mbps line
16:55:51  * SpComb downloads a couple Ubuntu ISOs for amusement
16:56:31  <SpComb> they're upgrading some of the lines here to gbit, but this building is getting renovated in the near future
16:57:20  * Rubidium remembers having 100 Mbps 5 years ago... you'd always get annoyed by only getting a few hundred KiB/s
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16:58:17  <SpComb> you could probably still download linux distros fast enough back even
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16:58:31  * glx would like 100/50
16:58:45  <SpComb> they tend to be on university networks, like the residential 100mbps users :p
16:59:33  <Eddi|zuHause> our university only gets charged for downstream traffic, so upstream is practically free...
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17:08:54  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... you could judge patch-packs which set the version to "1.0.2" as violating the gpl, as it requires to mark the version as modified
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17:10:39  <Alberth> making a patch against a stable is so useless
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17:37:32  <resq> Hi guys, I have question. I'm playing openttd singleplayer and have year 2100, I've just turned on computer players to help me build europe (before I played alone) and downloaded SI AdmiralAI, but after 5-8 years they are dying. Why is that?
17:38:06  <resq> Before I used to play on version 0.74 (or something like that) and AdmiralAI was very good
17:38:15  <Yexo> probably because your map / settings (due to inflation / newgrfs) is too hard
17:38:45  <resq> I had a break like 4-5 months, and loaded the game I played before :/
17:39:06  <Yexo> no idea then, there has been no new version of admiralai for over a year
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17:41:38  <resq> they are building like 50 cars, everything is going great, company costs 5 - 8mln EU, and suddenly everything changes and value starts decreasing to 2EU
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17:45:35  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20202 /trunk/src/lang/ (irish.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt unfinished/chuvash.txt):
17:45:35  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:35  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: chuvash - 93 changes by mefisteron
17:45:35  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: irish - 5 changes by tem
17:45:35  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by 2rB
17:46:51  <dail> So is AdmiralAI the best AI to play against or is another AI better suited to play against
17:47:08  <Ammler> yes, yes
17:47:14  <Yexo> that depends on your personal preference
17:47:22  <Yexo> and what you want from an AI
17:47:43  <dail> yeah i guess thats true....
17:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> "Oil and Gas acts as Lubricant for Earth's Crust Movement. Now that we have taken out so much Oil and Gas. Earth's Layers have lost this lubricant and as a result we will observe much bigger more devastating Mega Earthquakes.."
17:51:20  <andythenorth> the next mega earthquake will be proof of that :P
17:51:27  <andythenorth> definitely causal
17:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> we will apparently get another grand canyon that way :p
17:52:18  <frosch123> hmm, i still did not fix the quak-highlight for earthquake
17:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> an earth-quak, great! :p
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17:53:37  <andythenorth> bah
17:53:45  <andythenorth> scale issues murder my road-railer plan
17:53:56  <andythenorth> unless I redraw the fricking sprites :P
17:54:14  <resq> Are all NewGRFs available through ingame online downloader? Or you are downloading some through http?
17:54:32  <Eddi|zuHause> some older ones might not be available
17:54:41  * andythenorth thinks smoke for RVs would be nice
17:55:30  <resq> because Im seeing some interesting ones on screenshots and wondering.
17:56:14  <andythenorth> resq: http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/
17:56:18  <resq> http://media.openttd.org/images/screens/1.0/20090913_luuk_de_vries.png is this oneway roads or just looks like that?
17:56:31  <resq> andythenorth, thx
17:56:42  <ccfreak2k> Those are one-way roads.
17:56:43  <andythenorth> resq: it's one way roads
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17:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> one way roads are not part of grfs...
17:56:56  <Eddi|zuHause> they are in the default game
17:57:03  * andythenorth ponders
17:57:09  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
17:57:09  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 6 hours, 21 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Pikka> should spark under wires and blow steam on regular rails
17:57:17  <Eddi|zuHause> although the shape of the arrows may vary
17:57:48  <resq> hmm I cant find them, I wanted to build highways like on the screenshots
17:58:29  <Alberth> build a normal road, then add the direction arrows
17:59:02  * andythenorth is glum
17:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> resq: http://wiki.openttd.org/Roadway_construction#Building_one-way_roads
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18:00:27  <resq> woo, I did not know that, thx
18:01:13  <Markk> How can I but a bot in a channel that outputs everything that's going on in a game?
18:01:20  <Markk> (Like the one in openttdcoop)
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18:04:33  <Ammler> we use ap+
18:05:21  <Markk> Thanks. :D
18:05:52  * Alberth makes a screenshot for andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/industry_chain4.png
18:06:03  <andythenorth> :o
18:06:10  <Alberth> it looks awesome andythenorth, unfortunately, the window is not ready yet
18:06:19  <Markk> What is that? :o
18:06:30  <Alberth> a .png file
18:06:36  <Markk> ;)
18:06:45  <andythenorth> Alberth: looks epic
18:06:49  * andythenorth is less glum
18:07:21  <Eoin> why would a petrol station need cement?
18:07:31  <Alberth> you are supposed to be able to click at the industries and cargoes, and thus browse the industry set
18:08:10  <Alberth> Eoin: goods
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18:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> tiny feature request: a "show on map" button that filters for all industries visible in this window
18:08:51  <Eoin> ...good point xD
18:09:34  <Eoin> what GRF is this for?
18:09:38  <Eoin> not payed attention to openttd for a while
18:10:00  <Alberth> the window works with any industry set
18:10:05  <Eoin> ah
18:10:07  <Alberth> the screen short is with FIRS
18:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and another detail: it might want to show also "Houses" or "Town", if a house set building accepts the cargo
18:10:10  <Eoin> the example if FIRS?
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18:10:11  <Eoin> is*
18:10:12  <Eoin> ah :P
18:10:13  <Alberth> *shot
18:10:48  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that is also one of the missing features. Not sure how to get that information
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18:11:51  <Hirundo> What happens if accepted cargoes are decided using CB 2A-2C?
18:12:25  <Markk> Nice, I'm owner to a dedicated OpenTTD-server.
18:12:30  <Markk> (On a VPS in UK)
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18:12:51  <Alberth> Hirundo: I display the accepted/produced cargo of the industry types. I see no sensible solution to do it for every industry.
18:13:40  * andythenorth thinks it's bad behaviour to vary accepted/produced between industries of the same type
18:13:44  <andythenorth> not cricket
18:14:03  <Hirundo> It's indeed bad, but *someone* wrote CBs for it
18:14:24  <andythenorth> customising per industry type is useful
18:14:32  <andythenorth> customising per instance is confusing to players
18:14:59  <andythenorth> it's an unfortunate side effect of a useful feature :P
18:15:02  * Alberth agrees that an industry type should be deciding for accpted cargo
18:15:26  <Alberth> and probably produced cargo as well
18:15:42  <andythenorth> hmm
18:16:02  <andythenorth> actually acceptance should be on a per-industry instance basis, that allows for stockpiling and things
18:16:13  <andythenorth> I was thinking of cb 14B and 14C
18:16:37  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, "Machine factory now also produces leather jackets"... very... "communistic" approach ;)
18:16:47  <Alberth> you are aware of the fact that I don't speak callback numberish?
18:17:05  <andythenorth> the TTDP wiki does
18:17:06  <andythenorth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Decide_input_and_output_cargo_types_14B_14C_
18:17:33  <andythenorth> using those cbs to decide per instance might be entertaining for a coder, but would make for bad gameplay
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18:18:11  <Alberth> yeah, I don't see use for that callback
18:18:33  <andythenorth> I can...
18:18:49  <Hirundo> you're right about 14B/C, I missed the fact that both industry tiles and industries have to agree on whether to accept machine parts or leather jackets
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18:19:08  <andythenorth> Alberth one use would be changing cargos according to parameter (globally for all instances)
18:19:25  <andythenorth> another use would be randomising cargos depending on certain variables (co-ords, snowline, town etc)
18:19:31  <andythenorth> the first is useful
18:19:35  <andythenorth> the second is annoying
18:20:06  <Alberth> why not make more industry types?
18:20:20  <Hirundo> The first can be done with action 6/D/7/9 as well
18:21:16  <Hirundo> Isn't this CB used by ECS to stop acceptance on stockpile overflow?
18:21:30  <andythenorth> CB 14B 14C wouldn't be
18:21:42  <andythenorth> cb 2A and 3D would be yes
18:22:06  <andythenorth> and yes, more industry types / action 6 etc would also work
18:22:54  <Alberth> temporarily stopping acceptance to prevent stockpile overflow is not much of a problem imho
18:23:13  <andythenorth> it's a non-issue for your patch surely?
18:23:29  <andythenorth> that's local to the instance, not global to the industry chain concept
18:24:40  * andythenorth has to redraw an RV to match train scale
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18:25:51  <Alberth> yes, I look at industry types, not at industries
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18:28:35  <frosch123> andythenorth: not supporting cb 14b/c in that window is only fair towards ais :)
18:29:14  <andythenorth> can AIs access the cargos if cb 14b/c is used?
18:29:26  <Yexo> yes, but only per industry instance
18:29:31  <Yexo> just like a human player
18:34:15  <Markk> How do I change vehicle_breakdowns ingame?
18:35:00  <Markk> (Via rcon=
18:35:02  <Markk> )*
18:36:07  <frosch123> first look up the full name of the setting using list_settings
18:36:15  <frosch123> likely something starting with difficulty
18:36:26  <frosch123> then use the setting command to set a value
18:36:36  <frosch123> iirc you need to quote the whole command for rcon
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18:37:06  <Markk> It should be vehicle_bredowns 0 (Like the openttd.cfg).
18:37:14  <Markk> Or am I wrong?
18:37:38  <frosch123> maybe difficulty.vehicle_breakdowns
18:37:43  <Markk> Oh
18:37:49  <Markk> Now I'm with ya. :)
18:38:07  <Markk> Command not found.
18:38:46  <Rubidium> it doesn't know setting?
18:40:54  <Markk> "rcon [password] difficulty.vehicle_breadowns 0"
18:40:59  <Markk> "ERROR: command not found"
18:41:22  <Markk> break*
18:41:28  <Rubidium> you're obviously missing the command "setting" in there
18:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> also, rcon needs quotes around the whole command (but that is only the next problem :P)
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18:42:34  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I fear he took that literally (see the quotes?)
18:43:23  <Markk> Haha
18:43:37  <Markk> Don't be so harsh to me mates.
18:43:54  <Markk> I'm not used to use the console in OpenTTD.
18:44:02  <Markk> (Played OpenTTD since 0.4.7 tough)
18:44:08  <andythenorth> meh
18:44:19  * andythenorth abandons the idea of road-railer
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18:49:45  <Wolf01> evening
18:49:46  <Markk> Still doesn't work tough.
18:50:12  <Markk> rcon [password] setting difficulty.cehicle_breakdowns 0
18:50:22  <Markk> Just says what the setting does.
18:50:33  <frosch123> insert quotes :)
18:50:38  <Rubidium> Markk: read what Eddi|zuHause said 8 minutes ago
18:51:02  <Markk> I tought that you were ironic.
18:51:03  <Markk> :D
18:51:03  * andythenorth ponders redrawing HEQS to train scale
18:51:27  <Markk> Thanks guys. :)
18:55:11  <Belugas> I just so love this HardCastle hammering riff...
18:59:41  <peter1138> ?
19:06:54  <Belugas> Bloody Time Zones - Hard Castle :)
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19:36:01  <resq> what for are the waypoints on railways?
19:36:13  <SpComb> routing
19:37:19  <orudge> route add default gw 192.168.0.1 eth0
19:37:34  <resq> technically I know, but I still dont know why they are needed in game, I never used itd and didnt had problems
19:38:12  <orudge> well
19:38:18  <orudge> it depends on the complexity of your networks
19:38:24  <orudge> trains are more likely to get lost on large, complex networks
19:38:36  <orudge> in those situations, waypoints can be handy
19:39:36  <Alberth> or if you want to force trains into some path
19:40:35  <resq> thx for explaining, I generally build basic connections from point A to B
19:40:41  <resq> one track one train
19:41:00  <resq> I get mad for those signals, there is too many of them
19:41:43  <peter1138> hmm, nouveau is a bit slow :(
19:42:35  <SpComb> orudge: ip route add default via 192.168.0.1
19:43:15  <orudge> if that's how you like to do things
19:43:16  <peter1138> shame, the highres text console is nice
19:43:20  <Alberth> resq: you must have a LOT of track then
19:43:36  <orudge> resq: heh, that's what I tended to do 10 years ago, when I was still relatively new to the game
19:43:43  <orudge> but one learns quickly that that's not really the most efficient manner :)
19:43:55  <SpComb> sometimes not so quickyl
19:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> resq: you might have a station where the track splits afterwards, so you want to sort the train to the right platforms before entering the station
19:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> resq: or you want to separate slow and fast trains into different tracks on a main line
19:45:15  <Eddi|zuHause> resq: or you want to ensure that not all platforms at a factory are occupied by goods trains, and no steel/grain/etc. trains can arrive anymore
19:46:42  <resq> Alberth yes, but I'm playing very large map, europe scenario :)
19:47:31  <Alberth> resq: if you use path signals only, it is not that complicated
19:48:27  <resq> the problem is, I cant get it, I'm doing something wrong, cause trains wait on red a littlebit, and then turn away just skipping station
19:50:39  <resq> I read a little wiki manual, but there is so many signals, entry exit pre etc etc, I just dont have time to sit think and decide, and after few years I will be changing to electric, then maglev
19:51:23  <SpComb> you don't need anything other than path signals normally
19:53:10  <Eddi|zuHause> trains turn around if they wait at a red light too long
19:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can disable that
19:53:33  <resq> in options?
19:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no, only from the console
19:53:55  <SpComb> == silly
19:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that setting really should be in the options
19:54:50  <Alberth> no, the game should be changed that it only turns if it makes sense to try that imho
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19:54:50  <resq> whats the command?
19:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe a simplified "trains turn around on red signals" switch
19:55:21  <Alberth> but I never needed such trickery,
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19:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> resq: setting names are "wait_oneway_signal", "wait_twoway_signal" and "wait_for_pbs_path" or similar. set to 255 to disable
19:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> try "list_settings pf.wait" and "set <name> <value>"
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19:58:14  <Alberth> resq: you can also have a try with a small demo game, and when you get stuck with the path signals, post it at the forum. there are plentry of people to give you advice on alternative ideas.
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19:58:54  <resq> Eddi|zuHause, thx
20:00:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, it should do a pathfinding run from the other end, and only turn around if a valid path is returned
20:00:35  <resq> ok I will try it
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20:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: in case of a PBS block, only if an actual path reservation succeeds
20:02:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... two spiders in one web... that can't be good...
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20:11:09  <resq> and what is better in your opinion, one long train, or two smaller?
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20:13:56  <andythenorth> one long one
20:13:59  <andythenorth> the longest you can get
20:14:04  <andythenorth> (looks cool)
20:14:11  <resq> :D
20:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause> resq: two trains, so you always have one waiting for cargo (improves rating)
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20:35:30  <andythenorth> ratings are overrated
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20:36:40  <Eoin> hmmm
20:36:48  <Eoin> any good realism based servers around?
20:37:00  <andythenorth> maybe we should start one
20:37:08  <andythenorth> I can never get networked play to work though :P
20:37:22  <andythenorth> for reasons that are no-one's fault but mine
20:37:25  <Eoin> heh
20:37:41  <resq> wtf oneway roads cant have corners? only straight roads?
20:37:42  <Eoin> go ahead and start one if you want :P
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20:37:47  <Eoin> they can
20:37:53  <Eoin> you just dont make them 1 way tile
20:37:56  <Eoin> :P
20:38:28  <andythenorth> resq: you don't need the whole road to be one way
20:38:43  <andythenorth> just a few tiles at junctions will make it one way
20:38:46  <Eoin> you can make just  the first tile
20:38:48  <Eoin> and at junctions
20:38:50  <Eoin> ^^
20:39:10  <Eoin> i dont think id dare go on openttdcoop
20:39:12  <resq> yeah i figured it out, but still, simple corner :D
20:39:13  <Eoin> there junctions give me piles
20:39:23  <resq> should be available
20:39:32  <Belugas> home, it';s where the mind lies
20:39:37  <Belugas> bye!
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20:40:57  <kamnet> I don't think I'd do well on a multiplayer server
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20:41:21  <Yexo> why care about "doing well" as long as you have fun?
20:41:45  <Eoin> ^^
20:41:45  <kamnet> While everybody else is laying track from here to Kingdom-come, I'd still be fussing over how I want my station to look :-D
20:41:58  <Eoin> only exception is Openttdcoop
20:42:11  <Eoin> as it really is a mindfuck :P
20:44:05  <kamnet> Yes, just seeing some of the screen shot confuses me
20:46:14  <Eoin> andythenorth: i was being serious btw :P
20:48:14  <kamnet> I'm currently trying to rack my brain about how to make a realistic moreheightlevels-compatible heightmap for my part of the country.
20:50:31  <PeterT> Eoin: I have a world map, usa map, south america, and hungary server
20:50:49  <Eoin> yes
20:50:56  <Eoin> but im going on openttdcoop for a bit :P
20:51:07  <PeterT> you call that realism based?
20:51:16  <Eoin> i never said it was
20:51:48  <PeterT> well, if you wanna try mine, go to #sn
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21:29:38  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:31:47  <Terkhen> good night
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22:03:00  <enr1x> hello everyone
22:03:14  <enr1x> earlier this afternoon I asked about compiling ottd on a macbook pro with snow leopard
22:03:34  <andythenorth> what's the question?
22:03:39  <enr1x> i have been trying with a clean install of os x, with macports, and it doesn't compile
22:03:42  <enr1x> it fails when linking
22:03:46  <andythenorth> :(
22:04:07  <enr1x> let me post the output
22:04:10  <andythenorth> your best chance of help might be to ask planetmaker (if he's around)
22:04:17  <enr1x> http://pastie.org/1054439
22:04:26  <andythenorth> I compile on leopard, but "it just works" :o
22:04:52  <enr1x> looks like something didn't compile right, did it?
22:05:36  <Rubidium> wrong iconv
22:05:48  <Rubidium> IIRC the wiki page says something about it
22:06:24  <enr1x> Rubidium: you're right
22:09:02  <enr1x> i am reconfiguring and recompiling, let's see
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22:19:58  <enr1x> yay, it worked!!
22:20:04  <andythenorth> yay :)
22:20:07  * andythenorth bedtime
22:20:16  <enr1x> i'm leaving now (let's party)
22:20:20  <enr1x> see you guys, and thanks!
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