Config
Log for #openttd on 23rd July 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
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00:42:02  <SmatZ> hello :)
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01:01:47  <fjb> Moin SmatZ
01:01:57  <fjb> Night people.
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01:05:21  <SmatZ> bye bye fjb
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07:15:06  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:17:37  <andythenorth> morning
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08:09:05  <dihedral> morning
08:15:25  <Alberth> good morning
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09:53:56  <Hitman20> Hello all
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10:00:26  <Alberth> it is fairly quiet at the moment :)
10:00:33  <Hitman20> yes I know
10:01:14  <Hitman20> Hey all, am new to the forums and was wondering if there was a place I can go to dl AI that isnt in the Downloadable content?
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10:02:13  <Alberth> it isn't?
10:03:31  <Alberth> after clicking 'online content', a blue-ish screen opens, with at the left sometihng like 20 lines that have type AI
10:04:24  <Alberth> but you can also download them from the forums, openttd -> general openttd -> noai discussion
10:05:08  <Alberth> there are threads for many AIs, where usually in the first post you can find a download, or a link to a download
10:10:43  <Alberth> note that you most likely also need a few AI libraries
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10:13:54  <ccfreak2k> It's perfectly plausable that some new/experimental AI isn't in bananas.
10:16:21  <Hitman20> ah ic
10:16:58  <Hitman20> yeah na i looked through dl content but there wasnt 20 less than
10:17:12  <Hitman20> I dl'd all the libraries from DL content though
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10:44:00  <dihedral> dl = download?
10:44:11  <dihedral> ic = i see?
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11:03:25  <SpComb> pong
11:06:14  <rasco> what about the gamebalance branch?
11:06:19  <Hitman20> ah yeah Diherdral you are correct dl is download and ic is i see
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11:06:50  <rasco> are there any plans of balancing aircraft in main branch?
11:10:49  <__ln__> like asking the passengers to sit on the left side of the plane?
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11:11:19  <rasco> yes thats exactly what i was thinking of
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11:20:10  <SpComb> set max number of air vehicles per player to 0
11:20:14  <SpComb> done :)
11:20:35  <rasco> yes thats what everyone is doing but actually... thats soo lame
11:22:42  <Rubidium> callback 39 might help
11:25:28  <rasco> hmm
11:26:31  <rasco> where do i find it
11:27:00  <rasco> ah newgrf_callbacks.h rite
11:27:04  <Rubidium> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks
11:28:25  <rasco> hmm, its a good idea but how to balance planes with that?
11:31:27  <Rubidium> if it's fast, don't let it make a lot of money
11:31:48  <rasco> but that would affect trains too wouldnt it?
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11:33:28  <Rubidium> but very fast trains have the same: "makes a lot of money" problem
11:33:49  <Rubidium> you can increase the running cost of aircraft as well with a NewGRF
11:35:18  <rasco> but as far as i understood only in 2-multipliers rite?
11:35:51  <rasco> when i do that in pikka's aircraft set, then the old planes are totally useless, and only the new planes make sense
11:36:17  <rasco> which also sucks because i want to use the dc-3 :)
11:36:30  <rasco> but it makes no profit
11:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... sometimes i completely don't understand how much the AI can cheat... i'm doing fairly well, i think, but almost all AIs are ahead in research, now i'm on the brink of researching scientific method, and it just announces "XYZ has finnished Apollo Program"
11:38:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's 1640...
11:40:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and i can't wage war either, because people are two technology steps ahead of me...
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11:42:04  <rasco> Eddi|zuHause: wrong channel?
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11:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no :)
11:43:22  <SpComb> new OpenTTD mod?
11:43:26  <SpComb> dune?
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11:43:37  <Alberth> in 1640?
11:43:57  <Alberth> some form of civ, I'd say
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11:44:56  <__ln__> if a space shuttle lands on my airport, how much income?
11:45:01  <rasco> sounds civvy
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11:45:13  <keikoz> hi
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11:50:54  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then play OpenTTD... there the AIs don't cheat anymore
11:51:31  <Rubidium> not sure whether there are AIs in freeciv and whether they cheat, but if it has them and they do cheat... you can mod it so they don't
11:51:40  <Rubidium> that way you should be able to win
12:00:54  <dihedral> tactical operations with Rubi ^^
12:01:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the AI in CivIV can also be modded, since it is "open" source
12:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> but i could also just play a lower difficulty level, since clearly i can't master this one properly...
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12:02:26  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but that would be the easy way out
12:02:34  <rasco> Eddi|zuHause: why not play online?
12:02:59  * Rubidium wonders when there'll be a civic :)
12:03:27  <Eddi|zuHause> version 99?
12:03:46  <Rubidium> yeah, cause google thinks civiv should be civic
12:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, civ4 should give better results ;)
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12:18:27  <fjb> Moin
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12:23:45  <rasco> moin moin
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12:43:14  <Belugas> hello
12:44:15  <Alberth> hello
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13:20:28  <Pikka> hello
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13:28:55  <Yexo> good afternoon
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13:32:39  <pm-elsewhere> moin
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13:33:19  <pm-elsewhere> is it just me or is tt-forums.net having issues?
13:34:46  <Belugas> dunno
13:34:51  <Belugas> not had the time to take a look
13:35:08  * Belugas is having fun with batch files
13:35:43  * pm-elsewhere is trying to not fall asleep while waiting for the next conference session...
13:36:28  <Yexo> pm-elsewhere: it works fine here
13:39:48  <Englanddragon> pm-elsewhere; works fine on GPRS for me
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13:47:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... somehow everyone is moving around...
13:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> one goes to australia, one goes to america, one goes to england, one goes elsewhere...
13:49:00  <Ammler> me stays :-)
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13:58:25  <Yexo> when are the ttdpatch nightlies build?
13:58:45  <Yexo> assuming this (http://nightly.ttdpatch.net/latest/ ) is the download location apparently not every night
13:59:25  <Alberth> perhaps only when somebody committed a change?
14:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the compile farm is intelligent enough to skip building if no commits have been made
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14:27:46  <__ln__> http://ridiculousfish.com/blog/archives/2010/07/23/will-it-optimize/
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14:36:38  <SmatZ> __ln__: I am missing optimisations flags
14:36:46  <SmatZ> it will hardly optimise anything at -O0
14:36:58  <SmatZ> -O2 is the most used, but -O3 might optimise more
14:37:07  <SmatZ> also, 4.2 is old...
14:37:11  <SmatZ> but nice link, yes :)
14:37:38  <peter1138> back in the day we used to see things like -O6
14:38:06  <glx> -O3 can have more bugs than -O2 ;)
14:38:22  <__ln__> true, he doesn't say anything about flags, probably should be interpreted as "will gcc do that with any set of flags"
14:39:23  <SmatZ> hmm interesting, some time ago I tested gcc, and it couldn't transform the first example (factorial)
14:40:32  <SmatZ> the code was probably a bit different :)
14:41:12  <SmatZ> http://nopaste.info/f2bda48db3.html
14:41:20  <SmatZ> code generated by gcc 4.5.0 -O3
14:41:22  <SmatZ> insane :-x
14:41:49  <SmatZ> I should benchmark that beast
14:42:44  <dihedral> hey ho SmatZ
14:42:45  <dihedral> :-)
14:43:05  <SmatZ> hello mr. dihedral :)
14:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i read the extensive essay on the *2.0f optimisation, where i answered "i think this is probably wrong", and it doesn't really conclusively say if i was right...
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15:03:30  <SmatZ> indeed, the -O3 code is slower
15:03:40  <SmatZ> -fno-tree-vectorize makes it ~20% faster
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15:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that inserts another optimisation inbetween, so it can't detect the optimisation pattern anymore
15:25:27  <SmatZ> actually it's only the vectorization
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15:29:45  <Sevalecan> has anyone noticed a bug recently with NARS where Pax Equipment is always called "steam heating" for every different train engine?
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15:43:23  <Rubidium> Yexo: TTDP nightlies are built around 03:00 UTC
15:43:40  <Yexo> every night or just on some nights?
15:43:45  <Rubidium> every night
15:44:35  <Yexo> http://svn.ttdpatch.net/trac/timeline has r2325 yesterday 18:00 (dunno timezone)
15:44:45  <Yexo> but http://nightly.ttdpatch.net/latest/ doesn't have r2325 yet
15:44:56  <Rubidium> Yexo: refresh :)
15:45:02  <Rubidium> it has it for me
15:45:06  <Yexo> oh
15:45:07  <Yexo> thanks
15:45:16  <Rubidium> so probably some cache setting of the page is causing trouble for you
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15:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> http://german-bash.org/305598
15:46:28  <Rubidium> oh... that's the best one I've seen in months (on a *bash.org site)
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16:02:29  <Wolf01> hello
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17:45:37  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20205 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt polish.txt ukrainian.txt):
17:45:37  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: czech - 15 changes by ReisRyos
17:45:37  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by xine
17:45:37  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 1 changes by Fixer
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17:51:45  <andythenorth> evening
17:52:17  <Alberth> evening
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17:58:50  <Belugas> :(
17:58:56  <Belugas> not yet evening :)
17:58:59  <Belugas> oops//
17:59:04  <Belugas> not yet evening :(
18:00:38  *** Yexo [~Yexo@ip51cca4b5.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
18:01:03  <Rubidium> Belugas: but then it's not even weekend for you
18:02:51  <Belugas> thus  :( x 2
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18:13:14  <Wolf01> reboot!
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18:14:56  * andythenorth does some bricking: http://ttfoundry.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/little-green-stake-wagon/
18:15:02  <andythenorth> it's like pixels, only real
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18:39:14  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20206 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp lang/english.txt window_type.h): -Feature: Display suppliers and customers of an industry or cargo.
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18:40:51  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20207 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move variable declaration to first use.
18:42:08  <Wolf01> "Move variable declaration to first use" why did you choose this way? It's ugly :(
18:43:10  <Alberth> it is code style that we use
18:43:42  <Wolf01> but it's ugly :(
18:44:17  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20208 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Allow access of the industry cargoes window from the industry view window.
18:47:04  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20209 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Add: Allow access to the industry cargoes window from the fund industry window.
18:49:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: ^ :)
18:52:09  <Alberth> msvc 2008 doesn't like it :(
18:57:41  <andythenorth> Alberth: OS X won't build it either :(
18:58:04  <andythenorth> do you need a paste?
18:58:34  <Belugas> andythenorth, that is your work? (lego stuff)
18:58:40  <andythenorth> yup
18:58:40  <Rubidium> andythenorth: get a newer GCC
18:58:48  <Alberth> andythenorth:   assert_compile(MAX_CARGOES >= lengthof(IndustrySpec::produced_cargo));   <-- that line?
18:58:49  * Belugas likes
18:59:04  <Alberth> assert_compile(MAX_CARGOES >= cpp_lengthof(IndustrySpec, produced_cargo)); <-- yexo proposes this solution
18:59:07  <Rubidium> Alberth: he has gcc 4.0 or gcc 4.2
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18:59:37  <andythenorth> I have gcc 4.01
18:59:44  * andythenorth googles how to update gcc :P
18:59:49  <Alberth> as in that patch won't work either?
18:59:53  <Rubidium> Alberth: gcc 4.1 says it's okay
19:00:26  <Rubidium> andythenorth: ask pm
19:00:32  <Rubidium> he seems to be using gcc 4.5
19:00:51  <Rubidium> (or 4.4; at least something significantly newer)
19:04:38  <andythenorth> :o
19:07:12  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20210 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix (r20206): Allow other compilers to enjoy the new window too.
19:09:01  * andythenorth was having so much fun with mac ports :P
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19:14:46  * andythenorth wants gcc to build faster :(
19:15:15  <Wolf01> buy a more powerful computer
19:15:17  <Rubidium> then build your own one; Apple's is really really slow
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19:15:45  <Terkhen> use ccache if available
19:15:56  * andythenorth doesn't feed the trollz ^^
19:15:59  <Terkhen> that will not help you much on the first compile, though
19:16:26  <Rubidium> Terkhen: ccache only works on recompiles
19:16:58  <Rubidium> and makedepend is fairly smart about what files to recompile and what not (same with strgen knowing when to update strings.h)
19:17:30  <Rubidium> so the only time you'd possibly get a benefit from ccache is when you change a comment in a header without adding and/or removing newlines
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19:18:59  <Terkhen> wouldn't ccache help when compiling a cloned repo?
19:19:22  <Rubidium> yes, but that is basically a recompile
19:19:32  <Rubidium> but how often do you do that?
19:20:02  <Rubidium> or more specifically: would andy
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19:20:48  <Terkhen> probably never, that's why I said it wouldn't help much
19:22:07  <Rubidium> ccache only adds an extra point-of-failure and, if it's not used, adds significant penalties to compilation
19:22:58  <Alberth> andythenorth: sorry, but I had to add some strings for the new window :p
19:23:27  * andythenorth watches gcc build slowly and with no progress window :P
19:23:29  <Terkhen> yeah, I'm noticing... I never had problems with it under linux, but mingw versions fail to compile openttd
19:23:53  * andythenorth does at least have a reassuring blinkencursor
19:23:56  <Terkhen> I'm guessing it forgets some flags
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19:25:40  <Terkhen> I should look for other thing to do with my free time than trying to improve my mingw installation, such as actually using it :P
19:26:48  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I have a c2 page just for you :P http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SharpenTheSaw
19:27:34  <Terkhen> andythenorth: yeah, I do that a lot
19:27:54  <Terkhen> and usually I know that it's a waste of time, but I enjoy doing it anyways
19:28:40  <Terkhen> sometimes it is even useful
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19:33:37  <andythenorth> :(
19:33:48  * andythenorth ponders going to the shop to buy beer
19:33:53  <andythenorth> perhaps gcc is done by then
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20:03:10  *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.16.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:04:18  <Belugas> WOW
20:04:23  *** perk11 [~perk11@178.34.16.128] has joined #openttd
20:04:24  <Belugas> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XOOenaIdJ0
20:04:37  <Belugas> that is incredible
20:05:21  *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-224-240.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05:23  <andythenorth> yes :)
20:05:38  <andythenorth> I liked the cows more though
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20:23:22  <andythenorth> yay!
20:23:27  <andythenorth> pikka to the rescue
20:29:09  <Belugas> indeed, the cows are somehting to watch :)
20:34:58  * andythenorth ponders building lego cows
20:35:13  * andythenorth ponders cows in FIRS that watch trains go by
20:35:52  <planetmaker> the latter would distinctly be interesting
20:38:40  <andythenorth> the industry chain feature is awesome
20:45:05  <andythenorth> planetmaker: any idea how to write global var 8E (depot offset for trains)?
20:46:03  <planetmaker> uhm... not really
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20:48:59  <andythenorth> it's an Action D global parameter
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20:53:41  <Belugas> gone
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20:53:43  <Belugas> bye bye
20:53:49  <planetmaker> g'night Belugas
20:53:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth: did you try to just write it?
20:54:05  <planetmaker> like any other param?
20:54:48  <andythenorth> not yet
20:54:59  <andythenorth> never wrote an action D :P
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21:08:55  <planetmaker> They're the easiest kind of actions ;-)
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21:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> having the great wall makes you underdevelop your defense... that's surely gonna backfire
21:20:27  * fjb is too peaceful to win CIV.
21:21:36  * andythenorth goes to bed
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21:22:28  <fjb> My Win Mobile phone ate all Java apps including all the data. :-(
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21:40:21  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i have won games without ever going to war
21:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> and as far as i can tell, nobody else went to war either...
21:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but occasionally you have people who declare war no matter your relations...
21:46:54  <fjb> A christian friend of mine always declares war to win the game. But beside that the AIs usually declare war.
21:47:23  *** epeli [~epeli@a91-153-31-161.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
21:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the AIs really are some kind of role playing...
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21:47:44  <epeli> hey guys, a quick question
21:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Shaka will pretty much always declare war, unless you keep him busy
21:47:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and Ghandi will pretty much never declare war
21:48:23  <epeli> some server settings (such as min_active_clients, does nothing on listen servers) behave differently on listen and dedicated servers, is it intended behavior or a bug?
21:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe that one is intended...
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21:51:23  <epeli> i wish better documentation for all these settings existed somewhere :(
21:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause> make one. that's why it's a wiki ;)
21:53:14  <planetmaker> ^
21:53:59  <epeli> haha, yeah. i occasionally do anonymous wiki contributions, but i couldnt possibly start documenting all the features when i dont even know how they are supposed to work :)
21:54:05  <planetmaker> especially the wiki doesn't work with *someone* but only with 'I will...'
21:56:03  <planetmaker> epeli: then mark them (at least) with a 'todo' or 'attention' or 'outdated' template marker - whatever seems appropriate
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21:56:21  <planetmaker> or better: find out :-)
22:01:08  <Terkhen> good night
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22:03:40  <fjb> I have won a million again. What to do with all that millions I win every day?
22:04:47  <epeli> hire someone to install adblock and junkmail filter for your browser and email respectively? :p
22:04:50  <Rubidium> donate them to OpenTTD? If we have enough we could probably make Atari interested and buy the copyright and trademarks related to Transport Tycoon
22:06:26  <fjb> Shall I forward all win notification mails to you?
22:07:13  <Rubidium> no, just the money
22:07:55  <fjb> Oh, money? I was just happy about winning every day.
22:08:37  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can try forwarding your happiness :)
22:09:05  * fjb forwards all happiness to Rubidium.
22:10:16  <planetmaker> you must be a truely sad man now...
22:10:46  * planetmaker still happily goes to bed now and waves everyone a good night
22:10:48  <Rubidium> fjb: my happiness will just go lost when looking at the trackers
22:10:59  <Rubidium> so it's kinda wasted
22:11:36  * fjb starts to collect new happiness from the new notifications.
22:11:42  <fjb> Night planetmaker
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22:17:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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