Log for #openttd on 20th August 2010:
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00:05:42  <frosch123> night
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03:00:59  <TruePikachu> Can someone refresh my memory as to the size of the intercontinental airport?
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03:02:54  <TruePikachu> nvm, it's 9x11
03:03:16  * TruePikachu hates it when the DNS goes down
03:04:02  <TruePikachu> ^^ O_o mnematic device: 9/11 (US event with huge plane crash)
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03:10:03  <TruePikachu> many people having connection issues...
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04:42:57  <TruePikachu> For a factory, what is the production limit?
04:43:14  <TruePikachu> I'm pretty sure there is one, but I don't know what it would be
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06:11:39  <FlyveHest|Work> hi all
06:11:56  <FlyveHest|Work> does anyone know if its possible to disable airports / airplanes entirely on a dedicated server?
06:19:59  <Yexo> yes, you can set the maximum number of airplanes to 0
06:22:29  <FlyveHest|Work> in the config .. ahh, ofcourse
06:26:08  <FlyveHest|Work> generally, vanilla just seems very easy, any advice on how to make it more difficult? (every setting is stock)
06:26:23  <FlyveHest|Work> i have found the basemod grf, how much harder is the hard preset for that?
06:30:40  <Xaroth_> station spread not at 64 helps a bit :P
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06:41:40  <planetmaker> FlyveHest|Work: small map, basemod to hard, no planes, possibly 2cctrainset to expensive
06:41:48  <planetmaker> voila, welcome bancruptcy ;-)
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06:48:48  <planetmaker> seriously, maps < 256^2 are considerably more difficult to start than larger ones
06:49:16  <planetmaker> no chance for those big long-distance stuff
06:56:04  <FlyveHest|Work> planetmaker: thanks, we're running on 2048x2048, and it is pretty large
06:56:20  <FlyveHest|Work> planetmaker: and no planes is just editing the config and setting planes to 0?
06:56:36  <planetmaker> anything larger > 1024^2 (or 1M tiles) can't be played to the end anyway
06:56:47  <FlyveHest|Work> its not possible to disallow the building of airports?
06:56:53  <FlyveHest|Work> ahh, ok, did not know that
06:56:54  <planetmaker> nope
06:57:03  <FlyveHest|Work> thats pretty good to know
06:57:09  <planetmaker> You can only limit the amount of planes per player
06:57:16  <planetmaker> you can do that on a running game, too
06:57:19  <FlyveHest|Work> that will have to do, then
06:57:28  <FlyveHest|Work> via the console?
06:57:35  <planetmaker> you can use rcon set max_aircraft 5
06:57:45  <planetmaker> yeah, via console
06:57:53  <planetmaker> or 0 instead of 5 or so
06:58:07  <FlyveHest|Work> ok .. planes seem pretty overpowered, earning wise
06:58:08  <planetmaker> cfg only works for new games
06:58:21  <FlyveHest|Work> ok
06:58:22  <planetmaker> FlyveHest|Work: yes, especially on large maps ;-)
06:58:34  <FlyveHest|Work> ofcourse, because of the distance bonus
06:58:36  <FlyveHest|Work> makes sense
06:58:49  <planetmaker> and original TTD was designed for 256^2 at most.
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06:59:03  <planetmaker> we still use that economy model
06:59:15  <TruePikachu> What is the maximum production for a factory?
06:59:31  <Yexo> you can disable airports with a newgrf
07:00:13  <FlyveHest|Work> Yexo: ah, I thought if that was possible, but couldn't find anything on the contentserver
07:00:35  <planetmaker> there is none ;-)
07:00:45  <TruePikachu> FlyveHest|Work: Just because nobody thought of it doesn't mean it isn't possible
07:00:57  <planetmaker> that's so new that the paint is not nearly dry
07:01:13  <Yexo> FlyveHest|Work: I'm just saying it's possible, I don't think anyone has written a newgrf that actually does that though
07:01:36  <FlyveHest|Work> Yexo: ok :)
07:01:37  <TruePikachu> Yexo: That's basically what I just said :P
07:02:22  <TruePikachu> FlyveHest|Work: What country and time zone are you in? It's midnight here in LA
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07:02:30  <planetmaker> apropos, Yexo: rotated airports won't need a new state machine, just new graphics?
07:02:38  <Yexo> correct
07:02:42  <planetmaker> nice :-)
07:02:59  <TruePikachu> Yexo: I don't really understand why
07:03:04  <Yexo> and my offer to write the code for it if someone else provides the graphics still stands
07:03:15  <planetmaker> so the statemachine knows how to rotate itself? Cool
07:03:23  <TruePikachu> Oh, that makes sense
07:03:31  <Yexo> that part is quite easy
07:03:44  <FlyveHest|Work> TruePikachu: in Denmark, Central European Time, its just past 9 in the morning here
07:03:48  * TruePikachu found a clipping bug in OpenGFX
07:03:50  <Yexo> same goes for newgrf statemachines btw, openttd will handle the rotations
07:04:02  <planetmaker> :-)
07:04:20  <planetmaker> Did I miss it and are there newgrf statemachines?
07:04:42  <Yexo> you didn't miss it
07:04:50  <planetmaker> oki
07:04:55  <Yexo> I'm still not sure wha tthe final spec will be
07:05:01  <planetmaker> no rush, I guess
07:05:17  <TruePikachu> The tunnel opening which faces (the opening faces) the bottom left doesn't clip behind the tunnel
07:05:26  <planetmaker> hm, but we should be able to hammer out some rotated default airport specs
07:05:49  <Yexo> <planetmaker> that's so new that the paint is not nearly dry <- it's possible since r19459 (march 18th), I've seen a lot of newer feature being used
07:06:17  <planetmaker> hm... rotated airports?
07:06:19  <Yexo> planetmaker: specs? That part is already implemented
07:06:29  <TruePikachu> lol
07:06:30  <Yexo> no, disabling the default airports
07:06:36  <planetmaker> s/specs/sprites/ :-)
07:06:40  <Yexo> ah :)
07:07:05  <Yexo> I have one rotation for the small airport somewhere
07:07:34  * TruePikachu came up with a sprite-saving technique, but just realised it would be useless for this
07:07:48  <planetmaker> we do need all 4 rotations, right?
07:07:50  <TruePikachu> And it probably wouldn't work correctly
07:07:57  <TruePikachu> planetmaker: I would think so
07:08:02  <planetmaker> I should ask the OpenGFX artists...
07:08:07  <Yexo> that would be best, but you can provide as many rotations as you want
07:08:14  <TruePikachu> Yexo: ?
07:08:27  <TruePikachu> Are you meaning 1-3, or 4+
07:08:53  <Yexo> it works the same as industry layouts, you must have one but can have 10 (for example different ages, one old one futuristic)
07:09:00  <planetmaker> hm, Skidd13 isn't around anymore
07:09:14  <Yexo> I do have some of his sprites and permission to use them
07:09:29  <Yexo> not sure how much use they are though
07:09:38  <planetmaker> the rest was done, as usual, by Zephyris...
07:09:52  <Yexo> to get a consistent look it'd be best if the artist of the original airports could also draw the other rotations
07:09:56  <TruePikachu> What's the maximum production per month of a factory?
07:10:14  <TruePikachu> Yexo: Or the airports could have the graphics re-vamped
07:10:25  <TruePikachu> Similar to what's done for 32bpp
07:10:45  <Yexo> I'm not sure where 32bpp came into the equation now
07:10:59  <Terkhen> good morning
07:11:06  <TruePikachu> Those graphics are revamped versions of OpenGFX 8bpp
07:11:21  <TruePikachu> That's what I'm meaning
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07:11:50  <TruePikachu> They don't look the same, but they're similar
07:12:42  <TruePikachu> I think a revamp would be a good idea; it would be like saying "I'm not one of those _old_ airports, you can rotate me :D"
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07:13:32  <TruePikachu> Sorry, I'm getting tired
07:13:59  <planetmaker> 32bpp?
07:14:05  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
07:14:12  <TruePikachu> Read after my mention of 32bpp
07:14:14  <planetmaker> where does the 32bpp come into play?
07:14:21  <TruePikachu> -- >Read after my mention of 32bpp <--
07:14:41  <TruePikachu> Those graphics are revamped versions of OpenGFX 8bpp | that's what I'm meaning
07:14:55  <TruePikachu> They don't look the same, but they're similar
07:15:06  <FlyveHest|Work> is it possible to change the speed of the game? to make it run slower?
07:15:11  <FlyveHest|Work> on a ded server
07:15:12  <Rubidium> is truewhatshisname spewing totally unrelated sentences again, throwing you off your discussion?
07:15:31  <TruePikachu> FlyveHest|Work: I don't think so for a ded (at least w/o tons of desyncs)
07:15:34  <planetmaker> Rubidium: can't happen to me anymore
07:15:49  <planetmaker> But now I know where Yexo might have gotten that idea from ;-)
07:16:19  <planetmaker> FlyveHest|Work: no
07:16:27  <FlyveHest|Work> TruePikachu: ok, a couple of the players asked about this (we are all just starting out on OTTD)
07:16:35  <TruePikachu> What I'm saying is, if we can't get the original artist for the airports to draw other rotations, we could redesign the appearence of the airport, while mixing in the other rotations
07:16:36  <Rubidium> FlyveHest|Work: you can, but the experience client side won't be good
07:16:51  <planetmaker> lol
07:16:53  <Rubidium> as OpenTTD will seem even more laggy
07:16:54  <FlyveHest|Work> hehe :)
07:17:08  <FlyveHest|Work> and we can't have that
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07:17:49  <TruePikachu> Look @ my comp while in multiplayer - runs 75% of single player speed
07:18:14  <Rubidium> but replace the two "30"s in src/video/dedicated_v.cpp with e.g. 300 and you'll see what I mean
07:18:33  <TruePikachu> Heh, 300ms per tick
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07:20:07  <TruePikachu> Anyway, what is the maximum production for a factory in crates per month?
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08:59:19  <SpComb> OpenTTD has some awesome references on the wikipedia page
08:59:28  <SpComb> like "Web 2.0 Applications for Improving Public Participation in Transport Planning"
08:59:54  <Aemy> :D
08:59:57  <peter1138> hurr
09:00:30  <SpComb> that's exactly the kind of references that it needs to keep from being AfD'd again
09:00:43  <SpComb> some random bullshit that someone pulled out of their hat
09:00:46  <SpComb> and your future is secured
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09:14:53  <Flyve|Work> is it possible to restrict gameplay, so you have to place an HQ, and then have to build from that city onwards?
09:15:00  <Flyve|Work> ie, a completely connected network
09:15:11  <Flyve|Work> so you can't just jump to a random spot in the world and build more stations?
09:15:22  <planetmaker> yes. Enforce it as an admin ;-)
09:15:34  <Flyve|Work> <BANHAMMER>
09:15:35  <Flyve|Work> ;)
09:15:45  <Flyve|Work> so, that will work on the honor principle?
09:15:50  <Flyve|Work> and not enforcable by the server?
09:16:10  <planetmaker> that's the only way I see
09:16:41  <Alberth> I wouldn't even know how to detect it
09:17:01  <Flyve|Work> ok, but, the citybuilder mode on the luuk servers seems something along those lines
09:17:18  <planetmaker> luuk's servers are as patched as possible
09:17:26  <planetmaker> They only fake the version they claim to be
09:17:29  <Flyve|Work> Alberth: it could be done just by checking a radius when build something new, that you have to own something with that given radius
09:17:35  <Alberth> ie how are you going to see the difference between a busroute between 'home' <-> A,  A <-> B if you start building in A
09:17:47  <Flyve|Work> planetmaker: so, they are running modified source, and compiles the servers themselves?
09:17:52  <planetmaker> yes
09:18:20  <Flyve|Work> ok, i really like the idea of what they are doing, and it would be fun to be able to run that mode myself
09:18:35  <Flyve|Work> but, it is a private server, and shouldn't be to hard to "encourage" users to live by that rule
09:18:40  <Alberth> more people would like it, except nobody publishes the changes
09:18:45  <planetmaker> ^
09:18:45  <Flyve|Work> (the one I am running)
09:18:51  <Alberth> which is BAD imho
09:19:08  <Flyve|Work> what license is OTTD published under?
09:19:12  <planetmaker> quite so. Even if it is probably somewhat hackish, it at least lines out concepts
09:19:13  <Alberth> gpl
09:19:15  <Terkhen> GPL
09:19:25  <Flyve|Work> ok
09:20:07  <Flyve|Work> Alberth: pretty selfish not publishing patches like that, when they are running on source made not by themselves
09:20:13  <Flyve|Work> are they earning money on those servers?
09:20:16  <planetmaker> no
09:20:20  <planetmaker> I guess not
09:20:30  <planetmaker> Who would pay to play OpenTTD?
09:20:42  <Alberth> even if they did, I still think it is fine by the license
09:20:55  <planetmaker> It would be, yes
09:21:07  <Flyve|Work> dunno, there are a lot of "Gold" servers on TF2, where you get bonuses and unique items if you donate
09:21:17  <planetmaker> would also be fine
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09:21:44  <planetmaker> you can donate to #openttdcoop and you'll get a gold star on your user page :-P
09:22:10  <Flyve|Work> but, implementing something like "check for ownership within X squares to allow build", would that be possible doing in GRF?
09:22:11  <planetmaker> and the chance to propose a plan every game we play
09:22:35  <Flyve|Work> i haven't been able to find any documentation on what you can do / how to code GRF files in the WiKi
09:22:52  <planetmaker>
09:23:28  <Flyve|Work> or would you have to modify the source to change that behaviour? (It seems like something pretty basic, and as said, I don't know how much you can do in GRFs)
09:23:36  <planetmaker> the graphics development sub-forum at is also a good resource. As might be
09:23:59  <planetmaker> But what you propose is not possible to that general extend
09:24:22  <Alberth> list of callbacks at the end of action2 might be a good starting point
09:24:47  <planetmaker> rails and roads have no possibility to check ownership of anything beyond what is vanilla TTD
09:25:19  <planetmaker> hm... maybe rails do.
09:25:59  <Alberth> stations in its various forms are the most interesting imho
09:28:48  <planetmaker> :-)
09:29:06  <planetmaker> houses and industries are not bad either :-)
09:29:10  <Flyve|Work> maybe i'll just have to check the code out and have a look :)
09:29:14  <planetmaker> and I like to see airports ;-)
09:29:33  <planetmaker> Flyve|Work: there's a lot of newgrf examples found on the devzone
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09:29:44  <planetmaker> all newgrf there have an open source license, too
09:29:57  <Zuu> Hmm is there a bridge cost callback? Can a bridge GRF get hold of persistent storage? If both two is possible, then I got the idea of coding a bridge set that simulates cheaper dual-track bridges. Store the date and location of last built bridge. If a new adjecent bridge is built within say a month, then the price of the second bridge is reduced.
09:30:00  <planetmaker>
09:30:25  <planetmaker> Zuu: I don't think
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09:35:02  * planetmaker wonders wheter varaction2 NewSignals will work in OpenTTD
09:35:38  <planetmaker> and if so: how
09:35:59  <Alberth> $\lim_{t\rightarrow\infty} \mathrm{true}$
09:36:53  <Alberth> hmm, that formulae is wrong :)
09:37:31  <Rubidium> Alberth: you're using the wrong logic
09:37:50  <planetmaker> Alberth: missing argument, I'd say ;-)
09:38:28  <planetmaker> it has no action0s... so how would I associate an action2 with ... what?
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09:40:36  <planetmaker> hm. There's an example. Let's see
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09:43:22  <planetmaker> yah. Absolute sprite paths. That makes it really portable
09:44:50  <Rubidium> $\Diamond \exists v(varaction2 NewSignals that works in OpenTTD(v))$ <- I was thinking about something like that
09:45:17  <Alberth> much simpler :)
09:46:42  * planetmaker doesn't get that formula...
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09:47:14  <Rubidium> \Diamond = temporal logic "eventually"
09:47:41  <Alberth>
09:48:14  <Alberth> it allows you to express conditions over future states
09:48:33  <planetmaker> oh. :-) I've never seen such
09:49:47  <Rubidium> what's funny about my statement is that you can't really disproof it
09:51:01  <planetmaker> statements about the indefinitive future often have that property
09:51:36  <Alberth> except when you also have a finite set of future states of the system :)
09:51:51  <Rubidium> although "forever all v(varaction2 newsignals don't work in OpenTTD(v))" is somewhat trivially to disproof
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09:52:09  <planetmaker> Alberth: even then. Having infinite possibilities doesn't disprove any
09:53:48  <planetmaker> Only that \int \varrho(x) dx = 1
09:54:23  <planetmaker> where \varrho is the probability density
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09:55:02  <planetmaker> if one wants, also \int \varrho(x,t) dx dt = 1 ;-)
09:55:26  <Alberth> :)
09:56:11  <planetmaker> a statement which has no predictive power at all :-P
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09:58:02  <Alberth> hmm, I am storing the wrong kind of information, I can remember the 6 digit issue number at KDE bugs of my issue.
09:58:15  <Alberth> that cannot be good :p
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10:10:52  <planetmaker> :-P
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10:31:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20576 /branches/1.0/ (9 files in 5 dirs):
10:31:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
10:31:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Warn OpenGFX users when they are using a base set that misses sprites (r20566)
10:31:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Wrong tooltip for the company select button in the AI debug and performance rating windows [FS#4053] (r20556, r20555)
10:31:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: In old savegames aircraft can have an invalid state (r20528)
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10:39:00  <Flyve|Work> does anyone know if any of the industry GRFs provides longer production chains than 2? (ore->steel->goods)
10:39:48  <Flyve|Work> or is this a limit in the engine?
10:40:41  <Alberth> number of industry types seems like a limit :)
10:41:04  <Alberth> engine does not care at all
10:42:05  <Flyve|Work> so, it is possible to make longer chains?
10:42:13  <Alberth> I know of two alternative industry NewGRFs, ECS (which is really a set of GRFs), and FIRS
10:42:49  <Alberth> it is fine to make cyclic chains if you like
10:43:20  <Alberth> the engine only does computing at each industry locally
10:43:33  <Alberth> it does not keep a global overview of the cargo flow
10:43:51  <Flyve|Work> ok, that sounds like a nice addition to the complexity level
10:44:20  <andythenorth> Flyve|Work: FIRS has about 5 steps in the longer chains
10:44:33  <andythenorth>
10:44:50  <andythenorth>
10:47:07  <Flyve|Work> 5 steps .. that sounds perfect :)
10:50:29  <Flyve|Work> i will try adding that GRF to my server
10:50:39  <Flyve|Work> are vehicles included in FIRS?
10:51:03  <Terkhen> no
10:51:04  <Flyve|Work> or do I need expansions for that as well?
10:51:07  <Flyve|Work> ok
10:52:40  <Ammler> read the damn readme :-)
10:54:27  <planetmaker> :-) There are questions and there is lazyness? :-)
10:55:11  <Flyve|Work> apparantly :P
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11:18:39  <avdg> :p finally, I found a way to stop the flickering of the scroll buttons
11:18:59  <avdg> but now I have a problem with not pressed buttons :p
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11:22:44  <dihedral> avdg: now you know why it was flickering :-P
11:22:54  <avdg> yeah
11:23:26  <avdg> but I still not found a way to get the 'up' state
11:23:29  <dihedral> but perhaps if you paste your patch at or something similar, a few more eyes can have a glance at your work and maby suggest a way where both would work?
11:23:39  <avdg> I'll give the patch
11:23:44  <dihedral> ^^
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11:25:22  <avdg> I think I'm asking too much :p
11:25:27  <avdg> I'm always complaining
11:25:40  <Alberth> bool NWidgetCore::IsLowered() const  or   Window::IsWidgetLowered(byte widget_index) const
11:26:02  <Alberth> must be 'false' :)
11:26:16  <avdg>
11:26:29  <avdg> whoops
11:26:34  <avdg> syntax colors ^^
11:27:41  <avdg> I'll be happy if that code can be replaced by something better :)
11:27:44  <Alberth> more whoops, I do not set the right state to display by the scrollbar
11:28:21  <avdg> well, the wow feature is removed now :p
11:30:06  <avdg> and what is rule 81 doing :p
11:30:15  <avdg> oh nvm
11:32:39  <Alberth> hm, the methods I quoted are useless, the buttons of the scrollbar are not widgets, it is all scrollbar, and the position of the mouse pointer within the scrollbar is used to detect what you de-press (in ScrollbarClickPositioning() indeed)
11:33:00  <dihedral> ^^
11:35:38  <Alberth> window.cpp, line 337 ScrollbarClickHandler() is the call. You need to detect that that function is stopped being called
11:37:05  <avdg> uh?
11:37:11  <avdg> I can't find that line :p
11:37:16  <avdg> or see wrong stuff
11:38:07  <avdg> ah got it, its widget.cpp ;-)
11:38:57  <Alberth> just follow who calls ScrollbarClickPositioning() :)
11:39:17  <avdg> I'm too hungry atm :)
11:39:33  <Alberth> fix that first :)
11:40:16  <Rubidium>
11:40:18  <avdg> :p
11:40:27  <avdg> ^^
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11:41:15  <avdg> yeah, ofcourse I'm in disadvantage if I don't know these variables ^^
11:41:38  <Rubidium> oh, sorry... but I didn't know the code at 13:26 either
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11:43:03  <avdg> hmm
11:43:13  <avdg> my browser has a copy bug :(
11:43:30  <avdg> now I have to type the first characters again
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11:49:15  <avdg> I'm happy :p
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11:51:22  <avdg> hmm
11:51:45  <avdg> if you press the upper button and you move your move over the caption bar, you got strange stuff
11:51:54  <avdg> but thats an other issue :p
11:55:00  <Progman> I think its not on purpose that a bus in line decided to pass through the bus in front of it, isn't it?
11:55:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20577 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp window.cpp): -Fix [FS#4043]: scroll button flickering when pressed
11:55:37  <avdg> :)
11:56:39  <Rubidium> Progman: if it has been standing there for a LONG time, then yes it is doing what it was designed to do
11:56:51  <Progman> okay
11:56:52  <dihedral> _network_reconnect = min(_local_company + 1, 10); <- this implies that 5 companies + all spectators try to join at the same time
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11:57:44  <Rubidium> dihedral: it also implied that for openttdcoop *everyone* basically tries to join at the same time
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11:57:54  <dihedral> aye
11:58:04  <dihedral> you mind if i possibly come up with something?
11:58:21  <Rubidium> no, but I doubt you will :)
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11:58:48  <Rubidium> or it will be increadibly tricky code
11:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... any astrophysicist around? in the civ4 "final frontier" mod, all the star systems and supernovas turn positive (left, counter-clockwise), but the black holes turn negative (right, clockwise). does that have any physical basis or is that a random game design thing?
11:59:27  <peter1138> look at them from the other side
11:59:36  <dihedral> Rubidium: even if it were a wee bit tricky code, it would not be significant, as at that time nothing else important happens - nor does that piece of code get executed all _that_ often ;-)
12:00:01  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: related to the water drain vortex goes the other way at the other side of the equator (fable)?
12:00:17  <dihedral> making use of frame_lag could be an idea ^^
12:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i was under the impression, regardless of which side you look, most of the universe [or at least this galaxy] turns in the same direction
12:01:10  <Rubidium> maybe TrueBrain knows anything about it
12:01:42  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: you still need some common reference direction to compare
12:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: that was not the point.
12:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the question was: why do black holes turn the other direction
12:02:39  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: related to the water drain vortex goes the other way at the other side of the equator (fable)? <-- practically yes
12:03:02  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: ie. do they change direction while collapsing?
12:03:06  <planetmaker> in theory it's correct, if you assume a *perfectly circular* basin with the drain perfectly in the centre
12:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the "fable" thing is that this does not apply to toilets
12:03:38  <planetmaker> practically all small deviations have more influence
12:04:17  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the 'fable' applies to every sufficiently small thing. And human-made things count as that
12:04:27  <planetmaker> shape has more influence and deviations from the ideal
12:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but that still was not my question...
12:08:16  <planetmaker> missed that.
12:08:26  <planetmaker> The spin axis of stars is random
12:08:42  <planetmaker> so is the spin axis of their remanents
12:09:19  <planetmaker> their orbital motion around the galacitc centre is roughly the same though.
12:09:32  <planetmaker> but that - again - was not the question ;-)
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12:11:46  <Rubidium> "The spin of a stellar black hole is due to the conservation of angular momentum of the star that produced it."
12:13:16  <planetmaker> yeah
12:13:32  <planetmaker> as such the axis hardly changes
12:13:50  <Rubidium> "It is generally believed that every black hole decays rapidly to a stationary black hole"
12:14:11  <Rubidium> so I reckon it's a game design thing :)
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12:16:05  <planetmaker> whatever 'stationary' means
12:16:23  <Rubidium> not spinning
12:16:26  <planetmaker> and 'rapidly'
12:16:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20578 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix [FS#4051]: Draw bounding boxes using white instead of pure white, so they are recoloured to grey in coloured newspaper instead of blue.
12:16:44  <Rubidium> rapid in astronomical terms I'd say
12:16:45  <planetmaker> I'd not bet on 'not spinning' ;-)
12:16:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "rapid" in intergalactical terms may be a wide range ;)
12:17:22  <planetmaker> Because... where should the angular momentum go? It could only loose via Hawking radiation and via retrograde accretion
12:17:35  <planetmaker> and space time frame drag
12:17:49  <planetmaker> but...
12:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe relativistic time dilation makes it look stationary?
12:19:08  <planetmaker> well. You cannot *look* at it anyway
12:19:22  <planetmaker> or rather *at*
12:19:46  <planetmaker> It's per definition something which can only be seen by its influence on the surroundings
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12:21:18  <TrueBrain> [14:00] <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i was under the impression, regardless of which side you look, most of the universe [or at least this galaxy] turns in the same direction <- everything just moves away .. it is so sad .. they want nothing to do with us .. they all hate us ...
12:24:17  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: or the lack of seeing, in fact :D
12:24:42  <planetmaker> :-)
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12:29:05  <Rubidium> "morning" glx
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12:40:08  <Belugas> good day
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12:51:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20579 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change (r1579): Allow removing of buoys if they are only used by own vehicles.
12:51:43  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: fix your forum posts :p
12:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what?
12:52:10  <frosch123>
12:52:14  <Eddi|zuHause> oh... that
12:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> r1579 is kinda... old...
12:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember in TTO you couldn't remove buoys at all
13:01:00  <Belugas> oh.. but you can, in ttdp, without any problems...
13:01:03  <Belugas> prrrrrrrrt
13:01:43  <Terkhen> :)
13:12:50  <planetmaker> <-- lol. He doesn't get it, eh?
13:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling the new "mark engines as invalid" method is a bit too aggressive
13:14:37  <frosch123> i think it works just fine
13:14:53  <frosch123> else they would complain about something not working, now it is obvious
13:15:01  <planetmaker> I think it's good. Is a good way to show people that they mess up
13:17:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so... post is fixed ;)
13:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Aug 20 14:54:14 johannes-i smartd[4838]: Device: /dev/sda, 1 Currently unreadable (pending) sectors
13:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't really sound well
13:21:26  <perk11> Eddi|zuHause: what do you mean by " today's nightly" in your post? Isn't that feature already in releseases?
13:21:27  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: agreed, that trailing s needs to go
13:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> perk11: read the commit above
13:22:11  <Rubidium> perk11: it's only in releases made in the last 30 minutes
13:22:18  <perk11> oh
13:22:30  <perk11> nice feature
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13:23:07  <planetmaker> oh. Could I have re-used buoys from others? Hm... :-)
13:23:29  <frosch123> you even could do that in ttd, if the computer would have build buoys
13:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> in TTO, buoys weren't company coloured, but grey like oil rigs
13:25:23  <frosch123> they are in ottd too
13:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't really used buoys in a while...
13:25:51  <planetmaker> yep... but I somehow didn't make the relation
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13:26:30  <Eddi|zuHause> night, frosch124
13:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause> err...
13:26:39  <Eddi|zuHause> s/4/3/
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13:29:22  * roboboy is kinda looking forward to tomorow
13:30:49  <Belugas> yeah... me too... it will be SATURDAY!!!!
13:31:11  <roboboy> and I have to vote for the first time
13:31:35  <Rubidium> have? Or may?
13:31:51  <roboboy> have
13:32:08  <roboboy> In Australia it is compulsary to vote
13:32:47  <Rubidium> how undemocratic
13:32:52  * frosch123 thinks it is _very_ clever of debian to restart gdm without asking
13:33:26  <planetmaker> oh... compulsory voting
13:33:28  * Rubidium thinks he is happy he doesn't use gnome/gdm
13:33:37  <planetmaker> Rubidium: one can still make an illegal vote
13:33:45  <roboboy> yep
13:33:49  <peter1138> frosch123... ouch
13:34:01  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but you don't have the choice to not vote
13:34:28  <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes. So? What difference does it make to vote for no-one or not vote at all?
13:34:40  <frosch123> i wonder whether smartd or smart-notifier would require a restart of gdm
13:34:53  <frosch123> otoh, maybe only x crashed :p
13:35:06  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I reckon that those who don't care enough to vote just vote for some random person without thinking about it
13:35:50  <planetmaker> Rubidium: not sure. They'll make some choice. Maybe based upon bad reasons, but
13:36:01  <planetmaker> is that less democratic?
13:37:28  * roboboy personally thinks compulsary Voting is a good thing as it removes some issues
13:37:37  <Hirundo> which issues?
13:37:39  <Rubidium> technically not, but having to vote is
13:38:48  <roboboy> the potential of having a totally un-balanced election where only supporters of one party vote
13:39:57  <Hirundo> why would the others not vote? If it's too much effort, they probably don't care enough
13:39:57  <planetmaker> roboboy: that is not an issue really
13:40:28  <planetmaker> either you care, then you vote, or you don't care, then you do what you like
13:40:43  <planetmaker> it's the majority of people who bother
13:40:57  <roboboy> well I see it that way but I won't argue
13:41:03  <VVG> hello there
13:41:03  <Rubidium> and if nobody supports one party, which should it get those "random" votes?
13:41:11  <Rubidium> s/which/why/
13:41:20  <planetmaker> but well. I don't need convincing that voting is sensible. Because not voting is not an option and has zero chance to change anything
13:41:37  <roboboy> I agree that it's the majority that count
13:42:33  <Hirundo> If you don't want to vote, either stop complaining or move to $non_democratic_country
13:42:58  <roboboy> i'm not complaining
13:43:08  <Alberth> not voting and non-democratic country are not related :)
13:43:44  <Alberth> ie several dictators require you to vote on one party
13:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm slightly in favour of compulsary vote, but it doesn't really make that much of a difference
13:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause> people have to be forced to do things...
13:45:21  <Eddi|zuHause> in a system like germany's, 1/3 have elected the government, 1/3 the opposition, and 1/3 not at all... where's the majority?
13:45:32  <planetmaker> [15:43]	<Alberth>	ie several dictators require you to vote on one party <-- often even only require you to pretend to do so
13:45:53  <Ammler> <-- does this use arctic trees?
13:45:57  <planetmaker> the only important thing is that one can state with the slightest justification that there havebeen elections
13:46:07  <Ammler> thought, opengfx never added the snowy temperate trees
13:46:25  <planetmaker> it's default opengfx trees
13:46:35  <Hirundo> The idea is that the government can't screw up too badly or they will be sent home
13:46:51  <Ammler> (from
13:46:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the practice is often far from the theory...
13:48:22  <planetmaker> see landscape31.pcx, Ammler
13:48:37  <Ammler> yeah, it is in the post :-$
13:48:40  <Hirundo> In practice, the business cycle has a lot of influence on the election outcome
13:49:02  <Hirundo> the worse the economy, the more votes for the opposition
13:49:29  <planetmaker> Ammler: ?
13:49:41  <planetmaker> I guess we can close one ticket, though
13:49:54  <Ammler> "trees under and above using arctic trees"
13:50:18  <planetmaker> hm?
13:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, the point of a representative democracy is not that "the people" get more to say, but that the governments cannot build up too much filth, because they get voted out of power often enough
13:50:40  <planetmaker> oh
13:50:55  <Hirundo> exactly
13:51:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (is that the right translation of "Filz"?)
13:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> in some pseudo-democracies where this doesn't happen, you see the outcome... like iran... or bavaria...
13:52:40  <Hirundo> bavaria = CSU since ancient times?
13:52:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
13:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> last election they had below 50% for the first time
13:53:08  <Hirundo> that can't be!
13:53:13  <frosch123> since 69 or so
13:54:49  <Eddi|zuHause> too long, anyway
13:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause> random fact: bavaria was the only country to vote against the (west-)german constitution
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13:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (in 1949)
13:57:09  <Hirundo> in NL only from 1994-2002 the CDU/CSU equivalent was not in the ruling coalition
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13:58:47  <Hirundo> The social-democratic / liberal coalition was only possible because of the enormously booming economy
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13:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but you have more smaller parties, because of purely proportional vote?
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13:59:50  <Eddi|zuHause> without barrier?
14:00:01  <Hirundo> yes
14:00:25  <Rubidium> well, there is some barrier... but it's like 1/150th of the votes
14:00:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, like you need at least one seat ;)
14:00:46  <Hirundo> even the large parties are small now, though, the largest having only ~20%
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14:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: but that means that a conservative ruling party has more "navigation" space between central and right wing parties
14:02:02  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: somewhat yes, but...
14:02:06  <Hirundo> Indeed, they have the choice between going left or right, going right when they can
14:02:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the german conservatives have kinda maneuvered themselves into a dead end, where they only can form a coalition with one party...
14:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and that isn't really working out very well either
14:03:01  <Rubidium> they lost a lot of seats, which made a central government infeasible as "making a government of parties that lost isn't what the voters wanted"
14:03:10  <Hirundo> *cough*
14:03:38  <Rubidium> and the right variant... well, that "ruling" party is heavily divided on making a government with those parties
14:03:50  <Hirundo> voters are like customers, they tend to have no clue what they actually want
14:04:04  <Rubidium> definitely not the pirate party!
14:04:31  <Alberth> no party exactly represents what a voter wants
14:04:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda have my doubts they can build up to 5% for the next election...
14:04:46  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I guess they can
14:04:50  * roboboy doesn't want the sex party
14:05:03  * Rubidium remembers someone of the pirate party trying to find people in here to vote on them
14:05:13  <planetmaker> hehe
14:05:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember that
14:05:56  <Hirundo> His campaign in this channel kinda failed, though
14:05:58  <Rubidium> and for those who care for my reasoning: they want to abolish copyright for non-commercial stuff, i.e. they want to kill GPL and other licenses that depend on copyright
14:06:09  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: lucky you
14:06:31  <planetmaker> Rubidium: I guess that was the Dutch one?
14:06:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it's weird, i tend to remember all useless stuff ;)
14:06:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: yep
14:06:46  <planetmaker> I didn't find such thing in the programme of the German pirate party
14:07:00  <Rubidium> they don't want to get rid of copyright?
14:07:04  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: me too, like the 6 digits of an issue I added to kde bugs :)
14:07:07  <VVG> i used svn update on a working directory of trunk, it just updated and didn't complain about any changes i had there, and it looks like they all still present there. Is this a normal behavior? I expected it to just overwrite all my modifications.
14:07:08  <planetmaker> not that I know of
14:07:41  <Alberth> VVG: you had  a few 'G' then
14:07:42  <Hirundo> The pirate party should have finished their media training in time
14:07:48  <Rubidium> VVG: it doesn't overwrite your changes
14:07:52  <Alberth> VVG: by default, it merges with existing changes
14:07:59  <Eddi|zuHause> in my view, parties like the pirate party are there to put the focus of the other parties to these themes... they don't necessarily need to reach 5% for that
14:08:11  <planetmaker> though they have a paragraph on legalizing the "private copy"
14:08:25  <Alberth> VVG: In fact, I am not even sure you can change that behaviour
14:08:30  <Hirundo> Our 'Party for animals' has 2/150 steats :(
14:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause> alone the fear that the other parties might loose 1 or 2% to these is enough to put the topic on the political agenda
14:08:42  <frosch123> afaik the german pirates want to speed up the expiration of copyright
14:08:58  <frosch123> though only for company owned stuff
14:09:02  <VVG> Alberth: what G?
14:09:13  <roboboy> I heard someone say the Australian Sex party wants to legalise having nudity on Billboards
14:09:29  <Alberth> VVG: you did not have a list of files that got updated with a U or a G in front ?
14:10:01  <Alberth> VVG:  'revert' can be used to revert to clean state
14:10:06  <VVG> i used tortoise svn
14:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what i would limit is the "exclusive" unlimited license that companies get... so copyright always falls back to the author, who can then negotiate conditions repeatedly
14:10:15  <VVG> not sure about any file lists
14:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause> author as in the actual human who created it
14:10:44  <Alberth> VVG: oh, never used that
14:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or the heir
14:11:37  <VVG> well, if it is normal to merge changes, it's kind of cool, less troubles for me :)
14:12:44  <Alberth> VVG: the whole idea of a VCS is to get rid of merging changes yourself :)
14:16:10  <planetmaker> <-- interesting reading, Eddi|zuHause
14:17:37  <planetmaker> a comparative study on the effects of copyright on growth of knowledge and innovation speed
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14:19:00  <Rubidium> and... since copyright it decreased significantly?
14:19:36  <planetmaker> yes
14:20:30  <planetmaker> they compared Britain and Germany in the 18th / 19th century which had quite different laws in that respect back then
14:25:23  <VVG> there is a virtual time and ticks. One tick is X virtual seconds. If have time Y in seconds, and i want to get ticks it lasts, i just do Y/X, right?
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14:26:14  <Alberth> mathematically, that makes sense
14:27:25  <VVG> the code for conversion in ITiM patch has an expression like (Y+X/2) / X. The range of X is 1-4. What might be the reason behind suchs expression?
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14:28:58  <Alberth> what would you like instead?
14:30:25  <VVG> Y/X is clear, makes sense. But i am sure there must be some reason behind the (Y + X/2) / X. Want to understand it.
14:30:48  <frosch123> it is floor() vs. round()
14:31:13  <VVG> i need to lookup what that means :)
14:31:16  <frosch123> y/x rounds towards 0, with +X/2 it rounds towards nearest (for positive X and Y
14:31:39  <Alberth> computations are in the integer domain, which changes the rules a bit
14:33:00  <VVG> rounding to nearest is not automatic when using integers?
14:33:14  <avdg> no
14:33:23  <frosch123> no, all computers round towards 0 by default
14:33:48  <VVG> as in, just cut off everything after decial point?
14:33:56  <frosch123> yup
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14:34:18  <frosch123> mathematically rounding towards -inf (i.e. floor()) is far more useful though :)
14:35:09  <VVG> now it makes some sense to me, thanks a lot
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15:30:55  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20580 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4039]: go via station and go via waypoint behaved differently when a train went back to the same (unordered) station again
15:35:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20581 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: simplify getting the station in CalcPercentVehicleFilled
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15:40:26  <Wolf01> hello
15:41:28  <codingrobot> my trains are passing on red singals, there should be something wrong i think.
15:42:19  <codingrobot> these are two enter signals and on the right side are a block and an exit signal
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15:43:13  <frosch123> if you circular exchange the signal types it would work :)
15:43:20  <Wolf01> use exit signals for the platforms, not combo ones and don't use presignals for the station exit
15:43:23  <frosch123> i.e. read up on presignals
15:44:05  <Rubidium> yeah, definitely looks like the wrong signals are used (or the right signals at the wrong place)
15:44:47  <codingrobot> (the tracks on the right are going to two separate destinations)
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16:04:47  <Wolf01> codingrobot, use 4 tracks for the exits
16:09:50  <codingrobot> Wolf01: signals are the only thing that i can't understand in the whole game... i'm now playing with them in cheat mode..
16:11:10  <Wolf01> some combinations don't work with really simple layouts, if you need 2 separate double-ways you can't use presignals if you use only 2 double-way tracks
16:11:26  <Wolf01> you can use path-based signals for this
16:11:45  <codingrobot> ok, thanks, i'll try that
16:11:52  <Wolf01> or you need to use 2 one-way tracks for each route
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16:30:29  <perk11> codingrobot: section "Terminus"
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16:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i just learned that the italian president can refuse signing a law into effect, but the parliament can force him by voting for the law a second time...
16:48:22  <Alberth> american president can also refuse, I think
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16:48:58  <avdg> the american president has his veto
16:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that means the italian president has no real veto
16:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the german president has a veto with certain restrictions (the law must be "obviously anticonstitutional")
16:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (in recent history, that veto was used to refuse a law that allowed the air force to shoot down hijacked civilian airplanes)
16:51:47  <glx> a "nice" law ;)
16:52:41  <glx> and here we have HADOPI
16:53:05  <Eddi|zuHause> (the reasoning was that the ~200-ish civilian passengers' constitutional rights ("the right to not be killed") was not honoured properly)
16:54:00  <Alberth> which makes you wonder about the democratic process that was performed before the refusal
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16:55:11  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: the italian president has enough rights otherwise, like not being prosecuted
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17:35:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20582 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4044]: Autoreplace can trigger an assertion when at the vehicle limit
17:36:24  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20583 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Autoreplace failed while attaching non-replaced wagons to the new chain, if to-be-sold-engines would become front-engines and the unitnumber limit would be exceeded.
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17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20584 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: chuvash - 4 changes by mefisteron
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 8 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 17 changes by Christopher
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:53:00  <andythenorth> evening
17:53:11  <Wolf01> hi andy
17:53:28  * frosch123 ponders to disable changing of grfs ingame via newgrf_developer setting
17:53:51  * andythenorth thinks frosch123 might be onto a good idea
17:54:17  <VVG> so like, only possible to change them when newgrf_developer mode is on?
17:55:02  * avdg just thinks about a "are you really really really sure" windows
17:55:22  <frosch123> there is already such a big red window
17:55:26  <avdg> I know
17:55:33  <frosch123> anyway, i guess it is mostly used for scenarios or so
17:56:00  <avdg> but allowing it only for newgrf_developer is a smell
17:56:31  <avdg> for normal players, they need some extra things todo (wich is good in most cases)
17:56:46  <glx> not big enough ;)
17:56:48  <avdg> for some more experienced players, they would enabled it by default anyway
17:57:05  <avdg> just to avoid the problem
17:57:07  <glx> maybe we should use the fire color (an animated one)
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17:57:11  <frosch123> hmm maybe instead of the red window... we could turn the whole window blue with some white text in the middle
17:57:21  <frosch123> s/window/screen/
17:57:29  <avdg> flashing screen :d
17:57:32  <VVG> avdg: that's just a problem what the settings' name is
17:58:11  <avdg> indeed
17:58:25  <avdg> but try to explain that for a not experienced player :p
17:58:27  <Alberth> a much bigger window eg (screenwidth/2, screenheight/2)  would be a good first step :)
17:58:53  <avdg> hmm
17:58:55  <avdg> how to fill it :p
17:59:22  <Belugas> "If something goes bad after you say Yes, Don't come crying at us. 'Cause we kow what you did"
17:59:33  <VVG> last summer
17:59:49  <Rubidium> oh shoot... resident compiler expert is gone :(
18:00:34  <planetmaker> hu?
18:00:40  <planetmaker> oh
18:00:54  <frosch123> planetmaker: there are only two compiler experts here
18:00:54  <planetmaker> but there's another instance
18:00:59  <frosch123> one starting with s and one starting with r
18:01:06  <Terkhen> visual warnings are not working, let's try adding a loud noise instead
18:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause> * avdg just thinks about a "are you really really really sure" windows <-- you mean like:
18:01:21  <planetmaker> the true instance has no trailing _ ;-)
18:01:25  <Eddi|zuHause> 1) are you sure? [Yes] [No]
18:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> 1) are you really sure? [Maybe] [No]
18:01:36  <avdg> :p
18:01:42  <avdg> I don't know
18:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 3) are you really really sure? [No]
18:02:00  <avdg> <3 js alert windows in a loop
18:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause> second one should be 2)
18:02:16  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: no, just vice versa: "I was just kidding and don't want to change: Yes / No"
18:02:18  * andythenorth knows how to fix it
18:02:32  <andythenorth> if they click yes, just crash the game
18:02:32  <Terkhen> 0) Someone is trying to remove a grf. Is that REALLY you?
18:02:37  <planetmaker> People always click on 'Yes'
18:02:40  <andythenorth> they won't click that button more than about four times
18:02:47  <avdg> nice thinking :p
18:02:51  <Terkhen> oh, I like that solution
18:02:51  <planetmaker> forcing them to click on 'no' will make them think, if nothing happens with 'yes'
18:03:01  <Alberth> so pick a random question each time, so they have to read it
18:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you get dozens of bug reports "i agreed, but it's not doing anything"
18:03:14  <andythenorth> why is it still possible
18:03:16  <andythenorth> ?
18:03:16  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: no change then
18:03:19  <andythenorth> just make it impossible
18:03:22  <planetmaker> Just no crashes
18:03:24  <andythenorth> except for me :P
18:03:29  <planetmaker> :-P
18:03:42  <planetmaker> andythenorth: if it's part of the newgrf developer tools, everyone will use those
18:03:52  <planetmaker> Even though I like that solution it's impractical
18:03:57  <avdg> just add some reasons people at low machine lvl :p
18:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> some old savegames with newgrfs don't work anymore, because the strictness has been increased
18:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> combroads being one of them
18:04:34  * avdg can't think in english :(
18:05:17  <Eddi|zuHause> some versions of newbridges also
18:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably the same error, as newbridges is included in combroads
18:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the grf pack has a fixed version of newbridges
18:06:42  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: shall we check for unused/trailing bytes at end of pseudosprites? :p
18:07:38  <Rubidium> frosch123: does that disable dbsetxl?
18:07:44  <frosch123> yes
18:07:59  <frosch123> how do you know?
18:08:40  <Rubidium> lucky guess
18:09:01  <frosch123> i see, i am easy to look through :p
18:09:47  <frosch123> hmm, germanism ahead
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18:10:11  <RvGaTe> hello
18:11:09  <Terkhen> hi RvGaTe
18:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> what is the proper english term?
18:11:51  <RvGaTe> i've been trying to figure out how to do the signaling and junction on a large station (12 tracks) with 2 oncoming lines.... just cant figure it out.... i always end up using 6 stations for each incoming line
18:13:09  <RvGaTe> does anyone have an example on how to do it properly
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18:16:40  <Rubidium> RvGaTe: has some ideas
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18:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i must be the weirdest player on the planet, because my stations never end up looking like that
18:19:16  <Alberth> you practiced too much :)
18:19:33  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: about as weird as me
18:19:46  <andythenorth> mine look like maybe two platforms with track coming out
18:19:54  <andythenorth> or, these days, a dock :P
18:20:06  <andythenorth> throughput of a dock will blitz that of a station :P
18:20:15  <Alberth> lol !
18:21:49  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: would you have a 12 track station with 2 incoming lines?
18:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> my stations end up looking like this:,%2026.%20Feb%201934.png
18:22:18  <Rubidium> I reckon you'd have some elaborate "real looking" mesh of rails in front
18:22:38  <RvGaTe> makes me instantly confused
18:22:43  <glx> not enough passenger trains it seems ;)
18:23:43  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: so 11 platforms, with the same amount of incoming tracks
18:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: technically it's 4 incoming tracks (two bottom, two top)
18:24:09  <Rubidium> and a "real looking" mesh of rails
18:24:16  <Eddi|zuHause> plus some local feeders
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18:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i have another picture showing the lower entrance, but apparently i didn't upload it
18:26:52  <Alberth> RvGaTe: do you have a concrete example problem?
18:27:24  <RvGaTe> Alberth, just screwing around in single player with signals...
18:27:32  <RvGaTe> aka, cheats enabled :P
18:28:27  <Alberth> that's no problem, but IRC tends to work best on concrete things that can be shown
18:28:56  <VVG> I'm trying to use callback function at changetime button in timetable. Depending on settings, it either use the current behavior, or call setdate window. So, i tried to do "uint32 p1 = PackTimetableArgs(v, this->sel_index);" and pass p1 as window number, but it doesn't seem to work, as my window only changes the first order time.
18:28:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20585 /branches/1.0/src/ (7 files):
18:28:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
18:28:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Autoreplace failed while attaching non-replaced wagons to the new chain, if to-be-sold-engines would become front-engines and the unitnumber limit would be exceeded (r20583)
18:28:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Autoreplace can trigger an assertion when at the vehicle limit [FS#4044] (r20582)
18:28:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Go via station and go via waypoint behaved differently when a train went back to the same (unordered) station again [FS#4039] (r20580)
18:29:01  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Draw bounding boxes using white instead of pure white, so they are recoloured to grey in coloured newspaper instead of blue [FS#4051] (r20578)
18:29:03  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Scroll button flickering when pressed [FS#4043] (r20577)
18:29:18  <VVG> what am i might be doing wrong here?
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18:31:36  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2013.%20Jun%201938.png showing the lower entrance including a small bypass-line
18:34:15  <RvGaTe> Alberth,, only with 2 incoming lines....
18:34:24  <RvGaTe> Alberth, no idea how to do that..
18:35:06  <Rubidium> VVG: my crystal ball doesn't give me enough information to answer that
18:35:50  <VVG> fixing it!
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18:36:13  <Alberth> RvGaTe: what exactly? that page contains lots of stuff
18:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> RvGaTe: using only path signals removes most of the headaches of station design
18:36:52  <Alberth> also 'Advanced' does not seem to match your level of expertise
18:36:56  <planetmaker> RvGaTe: maybe you should also start with the easy things, not with the adv. guide
18:37:11  <RvGaTe> Alberth, Optimal pre-signaled station, that one
18:37:25  <planetmaker> RvGaTe: start with a normal pre-signaled one.
18:37:33  <planetmaker> Learn how it works. Experiment with it
18:37:44  <VVG> , here is the diff, the code in question is timetable_gui.cpp line 630
18:37:52  <Alberth> RvGaTe: looks way too complicated to me
18:38:12  <planetmaker> gah. VVG: don't paste patches to rapidshare. Use a paste service for such things
18:38:39  <VVG> other relevant parts are line 233, and date_gui.cpp
18:38:51  <VVG> what other service is suitable for suchs things?
18:39:13  <Alberth> RvGaTe: start with a simple 1 line to all platforms.   if you don't get a queue of trains, you are done
18:39:17  <Wolf01>
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18:39:27  <Alberth> Wolf01: does not exist any more
18:39:28  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: anything that has "paste" in its name, and allows inserting text
18:39:31  <Wolf01> doh
18:39:43  <Alberth>
18:40:04  <Alberth> although the interface is horrible
18:40:04  <planetmaker> basically pastebin.* works for most * ;-)
18:40:51  <Rubidium> "Firefox can't find the server at www.pastebin.*."
18:41:20  <VVG>
18:41:26  <Eddi|zuHause> what? it does not do wildcard expansion?!?
18:41:43  <VVG> the showsettimewindow there is a copy of showsetdatewindow from trunk.
18:42:02  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah... if it would have matched pastebin.* to pastebin and try to find that, it would've worked perfectly
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18:49:00  <Rubidium> VVG: don't see something obviously wrong
18:51:56  <VVG> that leaves something non obvious :(
18:52:22  <Rubidium> get your debugger and trace it :)
18:56:23  <VVG> sound easy
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19:03:56  <Belugas> grrrr...
19:04:00  <Belugas> DNS down
19:04:03  <Belugas> AGAIN!
19:04:08  <Muxy> hi belugas
19:04:17  <Belugas> salut Muxy :)
19:04:41  <Alberth> use IP addresses instead :)
19:05:07  <Rubidium> oh... who is playing with those few root servers again?
19:05:08  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:05:14  <Belugas> ok... gimme address of please :)
19:05:51  <Rubidium> 14400 IN    A
19:07:55  <Belugas> thanks.  but it seems their system is not quite ip address friendly
19:07:58  <Belugas> damned
19:08:09  <Rubidium> add it to your hosts file
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19:11:48  <Belugas> can give it a try :)
19:11:51  <Belugas> good idea you have
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19:15:06  <Belugas> wow...
19:15:12  <Belugas> 100% success
19:15:30  * Belugas kneels before Thou, Sir Rubidium
19:17:15  <Rubidium> the website now works without ads? :)
19:19:49  *** sylf [] has joined #openttd
19:20:55  <Belugas> yup :)
19:21:10  <Belugas> dowload of new driver for paymentech is nw complete
19:21:14  <Belugas> on test now
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20:00:38  <TruePika> Belugas: I heard you're having DNS trouble
20:00:52  <TruePika> Try; Xrufuian reccomended it to me
20:01:04  <Wolf01> TruePikachu I choose you! TruePikachu use "Go play a game"... Channel peace returned, is super effective!
20:01:19  <TruePika> Lol, I had just saved SoulSilver
20:01:34  * TruePika isn't going back for a couple of hours to let berries grow
20:01:47  <Wolf01> you too?
20:01:50  <TruePika> ?
20:02:02  <avdg> :p google dns
20:02:08  * TruePika actually got SS on March 14th, the day it was released for NTSC
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20:03:12  <TruePika> I'm still wondering what the maximum production rate a factory can produce is
20:03:37  <Wolf01> 5156-7667-2391 my pal code, in case of needs
20:04:08  <TruePika> Nah for right now, I just shut the game off 5 minutes ago
20:04:35  <TruePika> But, do you have Chicorita?
20:04:44  <TruePika> in any form?
20:04:51  <Wolf01> yes
20:05:05  <TruePika> Which Johto starter are you missing?
20:05:08  <Wolf01> I could give you an egg
20:05:16  <Wolf01> ehm, both the others
20:05:36  <TruePika> You chose Chic from Elm, I presume?
20:06:05  <Wolf01> and... continue in query, this is not related to this channel
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20:22:30  <Muxy> evening
20:23:09  <Muxy> how is it possible to have the join game button grayed in the game from multiplayer. New company button is active.
20:23:39  <Muxy> *in the game window... after server select
20:24:10  <Muxy> join game button is for spectating, of course...
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20:29:11  <TruePika> Mr. Backlot gets good things sometimes, it seems
20:29:21  <TruePika> ^^ srry, ment to /msg
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20:37:02  <planetmaker> <-- cheers, folks :-)
20:37:11  <Eddi|zuHause> <TruePika> I'm still wondering what the maximum production rate a factory can produce is <-- there have been plenty of discussions about that, if you cannot search, that is your problem
20:37:27  <Muxy> coz max_spectators has been reached, stupid me
20:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i find it extremely bad when people post download links without any context
20:38:05  <planetmaker> "cheers" :-) Just showing off a few new sprites
20:38:22  <planetmaker> and here it opens as image in the browser
20:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: sure, but you can't know that before you click the link
20:38:50  <planetmaker> true
20:39:07  <planetmaker> I'm used to the coop channels where our bot gives info on all links posted
20:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and the cans look too large, or not toy-style enough
20:40:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "too realistic"
20:40:48  <planetmaker> hm
20:42:30  <frosch123> what is the coin? construction state?
20:42:36  <planetmaker> yes
20:42:52  <planetmaker> insert coin. Get limmo
20:42:54  <planetmaker>  ;-)
20:43:40  <frosch123> hmm, if i would be picky, i would say the valve needs to go somewhat more to left/back
20:43:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it doesn't fit the perspective
20:44:34  <planetmaker> yeah... still not perfect
20:44:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed that, too, but its significance is way below the other two issues
20:44:54  <frosch123> i guess i would take the green one for drinking
20:45:19  <TruePika> Let me guess, the new airports?
20:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't be more wrong...
20:45:56  <TruePika> Well, I have OTTD running in my GUI, and I can't load images in Lynx
20:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but what part of "can", "valve", "coin" and "toy" makes you think of airports?
20:47:03  <TruePika> The discussion from last night
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20:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that is so last night...
20:47:31  <Zuu> planetmaker: Animated construction state change -> coin drops in the hole and a bottle comes up :-p
20:47:36  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: obviously the a and i and t and o?
20:48:07  <planetmaker> Zuu: I wish!
20:48:16  <planetmaker> Alas I can't in a base set
20:48:23  <TruePika> What is this all for?
20:48:39  <Rubidium> the ploink list?
20:48:47  <TruePika> ?
20:48:58  <planetmaker> hm... some mixture between your version and this one might be good for the can
20:49:21  <Zuu> I found out when I draw the current fizzy drinks factory, that the construction state sprites can appear/dissapear in random order. Ie the tap sprite can appear before the can sometimes.
20:49:48  <frosch123> yup, it is just tileloop
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20:50:08  <planetmaker> oh, I didn't notice / remember
20:50:08  <Zuu> Oh, so depending on where you construct it?
20:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that happens with all industries
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20:51:21  <Zuu> The glas in the new can-sprite looks very 2d-ish.
20:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the can looks too 3d-ish
20:52:39  <Zuu> I meant that the glasses are to 2d-ish.
20:52:52  <frosch123> it looks just that way, so you can recognize it
20:56:27  <planetmaker> let's tell the artist this all :-)
20:56:37  * planetmaker makes an amendment to the fizzy drink issue
21:06:03  <Zuu> hmm, perhaps only show "zoomed in screenshot" menu option when the game is not zoomed in?
21:07:16  <andythenorth> how's new airports coming along?
21:07:47  * andythenorth (is planning FIRS stuff which will depend on new airports)
21:07:56  <planetmaker> andythenorth: everything except statemachines is there
21:08:47  <andythenorth> hmm
21:09:23  <andythenorth> interesting
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21:09:42  <andythenorth> how does new airports relate to new docks?
21:09:56  <andythenorth> I want to knock out the heliport from industries built at sea :)
21:10:29  <frosch123> everyone from the other channel knows that :p
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21:11:44  <andythenorth> anyone think Water Supply *should* be allowed to build in desert?
21:11:53  <andythenorth> say now...
21:12:07  <frosch123> isn't there lots of water below sahara?
21:12:22  <andythenorth> when I flew over it there were lots of circle farms
21:12:33  <andythenorth> I guess they get water from boreholes
21:12:36  <Zuu> frosch123: the other channel == the inoffical dev-only channel?
21:12:59  <frosch123> no
21:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: it still behaves differently, e.g. it disables the toolbars
21:13:38  <Zuu> Eddi: which?
21:13:42  <frosch123> the channel where brot reports every activity of coop's redmine
21:13:53  <Zuu> Oh, that channel
21:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the panorama screenshot [why has this name not chosen? i thought so hard about it :)]
21:14:27  <Eddi|zuHause> +been
21:15:46  <Zuu> There is now "Screenshot", "Zoomed in screenshot" and "Whole map screenshot".
21:16:39  <frosch123> screenshot is the only one which also shows the gui
21:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: screenshot makes a direct copy of the screen buffer (with all windows, etc.). zoomed-in-screenshot makes a picture of the viewport, without the windows on top
21:18:41  <Zuu> So zoomed-in-screenshot is a screenshot without windows intop over the area visible on the screen, but zoomed in.
21:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
21:19:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it's exactly like the "world" (formerly "giant") screenshot, just with the current screen boundaries
21:19:59  <Zuu> Oh ok. If it would include the windows, then it would make sense to not allowed it when zoomed in. But since it is not, then my though do not hold.
21:22:02  <Zuu> Since we now have hover tooltips, tooltips could be added to the menu options. :-)
21:24:51  <Zuu> hmm, it does not relly depend on hover tooltips actually.
21:27:39  <Belugas> night all
21:27:43  <Belugas> meetings....
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21:50:04  <Wolf01> uhm, nice, "the current graphics set is missing a number of sprites...", updated, got again the alert
21:51:21  <Rubidium> Wolf01: using an OpenTTD nightly with OpenGFX release?
21:51:30  <Wolf01> yeah
21:52:12  <Rubidium> use OpenGFX nightlies
21:52:43  <Wolf01> gah, nightly combo :D
21:53:44  <Wolf01> could I wait for opengfx release and use the current one (ignore the alert) or is better to switch to the original gfx?
21:54:16  <Rubidium> it's better to use an OpenGFX nightly and give those guys some feedback on their work
21:55:27  <Wolf01> I use too many grfs, I don't know what comes from opengfx (apart the terrain) or from grfs, and I play very seldom
21:55:44  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe bananas can be scripted to fetch opengfx nightlies [and offer them only on nightlies]
21:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: afair the sprites in question are the airport previews
21:56:17  <Wolf01> oh
21:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause> new feature in trunk
21:56:44  <Wolf01> yes I noticed it
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22:08:00  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:21:42  <Terkhen> good night
22:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "BVB fans request that the Schalke arena be pixelated on street view" <-- haha! :=)
22:28:24  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you should call Jens Best!
22:28:35  <Eddi|zuHause> who is that?
22:28:46  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause:,1518,712426,00.html
22:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause> [BVB and Schalke are large scale football clubs in the neighbouring cities of Dortmund and Gelsenkirchen]
22:30:21  <VVG> I failed at properly suppling timetableargs and went with using a parser for HHMMSS string at OnQueryText, since this where those args are properly set. With this basic functionaly is kinda done now :)
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22:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause>,7.284622&sspn=0.186286,0.501938&gl=de&ie=UTF8&ll=51.518998,7.268829&spn=0.186289,0.501938&z=11
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22:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "Stoned bears guard cannabis plantation"
22:49:47  <Eddi|zuHause> one could almost get the impression it's summer and there are not enough real news
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22:50:30  <darkomen> hi guys
22:50:55  <darkomen> i've got a little problem with the manager of BaNaNaS...
22:53:22  <darkomen> I wanna upload a map, but when i wanna select the dependencies (NewGRFs), i cant't
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22:54:17  <darkomen> and i can't unselect the dependencie
22:54:30  <Rubidium> file a feature request in the website "section" of the bug tracker (category bananas)
22:54:40  <darkomen> ok
22:54:49  <Rubidium> (if there isn't such a feature request already)
22:54:56  *** Sacro [] has joined #openttd
22:55:51  <darkomen> ok, thx
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23:00:30  <darkomen> there is no bananas in the categories list
23:00:44  <Rubidium> then you're not in the website section
23:01:04  *** ^Spike^ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:02:04  <Rubidium> darkomen: the url of the "add new task" should end with /proj4
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