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Log for #openttd on 24th August 2010:
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00:00:39  <Rubidium> although with the time rift you still might end up in the right time
00:01:13  *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF8D2E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:01:55  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't they say they wanted to rebuild it?
00:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> or something...
00:03:37  <orudge> well, there'll be a new series soon
00:03:38  <orudge> s
00:03:38  <orudge> o
00:03:40  <orudge> we'll see
00:03:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20608 /branches/1.0/ (12 files in 3 dirs):
00:03:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
00:03:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Retain information about all base sets that are found and not only the latest version to stop confusing people that use newer versions of the base sets than those available via BaNaNaS (r20607)
00:03:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Let NewGRFs var43 var (information about liveries) for vehicles not be influenced by the local setting determining whether to show liveries or not [FS#4063] (r20605)
00:03:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: 'Downscale' a full load order to a load if possible order when removing the order while the vehicle is loading. This to prevent the vehicle from (possibly) staying forever in the station [FS#4075] (r20600)
00:03:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when the tooltip is wider than the window is [FS#4066] (r20596)
00:03:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: No (proper) savegame conversion was done when _date_fract got a new value range (r20592)
00:04:12  <Rubidium> ooh... new Torchwood, that's good news!
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00:11:11  <planetmaker> good night
00:11:48  <avdg> gn
00:15:59  <orudge> Rubidium: it's being co-financed, and indeed partially filmed, in the US though
00:16:04  <orudge> and apparently will feature some new CIA agents or something
00:16:09  <orudge> so we'll see how that turns out
00:19:59  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it's only logical to try to evolve the series...
00:21:24  <avdg> gn
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00:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> ... not saying that it can't go seriously wrong...
00:38:02  <orudge> heh
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01:48:42  <TruePikachu> Hmmm...I was going to (gulp) try to compile the stable
01:48:51  <TruePikachu> But I have some questions first:
01:49:34  <TruePikachu> Would self-compiling the code yield better preformance than using the supplied binaries?
01:50:14  <TruePikachu> What modifications could be made to the code to improve preformance when the system archetecture is known?
01:51:11  <TruePikachu> Is there a way to get the stable code via SVN?
01:51:53  <TruePikachu> For the second question: Would it break savegame or multiplayer compatability?
01:52:46  <TruePikachu> I'll search for a SVN, but the other questions will have to be answered as I don't understand the structure of the code myself
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01:55:40  <TruePikachu> Okay, I see no real easy way to SVN the code; I'll try to get a permalink to the most recent version, unless one of you would like to share
02:01:21  <glx> just get tags/whatever instead trunk
02:04:19  <TruePikachu> I'll try that
02:05:30  * TruePikachu completly forgot how to change the current group :P
02:06:57  <TruePikachu> I don't entirely understand
02:07:14  <TruePikachu> The Wiki says svn://.../trunk, but that's the trunk version, correct?
02:07:19  <glx> yes
02:07:30  <TruePikachu> Well, what would the stable branches be?
02:07:39  <TruePikachu> svn://.../1.0.3
02:07:40  <TruePikachu> ?
02:07:43  <glx> replace trunk with tags/1.0.3 and you'll get stable
02:08:08  <TruePikachu> Okay, and is there a way to always get the latest stable?
02:08:15  <glx> no
02:08:42  <TruePikachu> :( because, while I hate compiling from source, I hate re-directing SVN even more
02:09:05  <glx> you don't have to redirect, you just get the source once
02:09:07  <TruePikachu> It never works correctly for me :( </discussion>
02:09:17  <TruePikachu> No, I mean, with 'svn update'
02:09:31  <glx> no need for stable
02:09:44  <TruePikachu> I know, but on the next stable release
02:09:58  <TruePikachu> I'd have to point it to svn://.../tags/1.0.4
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02:10:23  <glx> yes, but for stable you just do svn co ...
02:10:39  <glx> or svn export ...
02:11:09  <TruePikachu> And next month, I'd do 'svn co svn://.../tags/1.0.4'?
02:11:32  <glx> yes and delete 1.0.3
02:11:51  <TruePikachu> Wait, when you do SVN from a directory, it will create a subdirectory?
02:12:02  <glx> yes
02:12:05  <TruePikachu> Oh :)
02:12:26  <TruePikachu> Just shows that I need more experience with SVN
02:13:06  <TruePikachu> Hmmm, you think it would be a good idea to set up a code partition on my HD?
02:13:37  <TruePikachu> The main partition is relativly small (only 4 or 8 GB)
02:13:53  <TruePikachu> I left lots of room for expansion ;)
02:14:39  <TruePikachu> I mean, source files can be quite large, especially for an advanced game, and ReiserFS doesn't really like large file operations
02:15:08  <glx> source files are not that large
02:15:19  <glx> but there are many of them
02:15:21  <TruePikachu> Oh, well, mine were
02:15:40  <TruePikachu> Well, do you think ReiserFS or ext3 would be better for storing and managing them?
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02:16:15  <TruePikachu> That is one annoying part of Linux, all the different disk formats
02:17:01  * TruePikachu goes to create, but not format, the partition
02:17:11  <TruePikachu> I may have to disconnect to reboot, fyi
02:18:09  <TruePikachu> Lol @ parted: command: print devices
02:19:02  <TruePikachu> /dev/hda (40.0GB) | /dev/sda (16.0GB) | /dev/md/0 (0.13B)
02:19:17  * TruePikachu can apparently store a whole bit on /dev/md/0 :)
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02:20:26  <TruePikachu> :( I can't tell what any of the partitions are for
02:20:56  <TruePikachu> Do you think it would be safe to scrap any partitions which are not formatted?
02:22:31  * TruePikachu finds that one of the partitions are actually all set up for source code :D
02:22:43  <TruePikachu> Just format :)
02:23:25  <TruePikachu> :( mkfs isn't cooperating
02:23:44  <TruePikachu> "too big for a filesystem with 0 blocks"
02:28:27  <TruePikachu> What the?
02:28:52  <TruePikachu> /dev/hda3 is mounted according to parted, but not accourding to mount
02:32:05  <TruePikachu> Lol, MS-DOS sure fails when it comes to partitions
02:32:16  <TruePikachu> No need to reboot here :)
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03:04:25  <TruePikachu> Okay, I just made the partitition, BUT I can't write to it myself; only ROOT
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03:15:01  <TruePikachu> The SVN for the most recent stable is svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/1.0.3 , correct?
03:16:00  <TruePikachu> Yup, seems to work
03:16:30  <TruePikachu> Revision 20608 checked out :D
03:18:30  <TruePikachu> Question:
03:18:45  <TruePikachu> date.cpp - Year
03:19:08  <TruePikachu> It says that it starts at 0 - am I correct in assuming it's 0 A.D. ?
03:21:18  <TruePikachu> Also, in enum (line 58), I unfold that, and line 61 looks like OpenTTD assumes every year is a leap year
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03:22:18  <TruePikachu> Am I correct with that as well?
03:23:22  <TruePikachu> This all is amazing work all you guys have done, and I congradulate you all for that
03:24:48  * TruePikachu doesn't know where to start
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03:26:43  <TruePikachu> murr4y: do you have experience with the source code?
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03:33:13  * TruePikachu will open the OpenTTD logo in Inkscape
03:37:35  <TruePikachu> Lol, it is all just amazing work guys
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05:30:37  <TruePikachu> Lol Netsplit, haven't had one of those since efnet
05:31:10  <TruePikachu> Anyone actually here?
05:32:37  <TruePikachu> @seen Xrufuian
05:32:37  <DorpsGek> TruePikachu: Xrufuian was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 5 hours, 4 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Xrufuian> Sugestion: Use both NARS and UKRS.
05:32:45  <TruePikachu> Why hasn't he been coming?
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05:35:05  <TruePikachu> ccfreak2k: Here?
05:36:00  <TruePikachu> Lol @ signal.cpp line 24
05:36:19  <TruePikachu> Who in their right mind would have 64 signals entering a single block?
05:36:47  <ccfreak2k> Yes.
05:37:19  <TruePikachu> I've been reading parts of the source
05:37:30  <TruePikachu> Amazing work there
05:38:09  <planetmaker> moin
05:38:15  <TruePikachu> Hello
05:38:25  <TruePikachu> Know how to get a tags file set up for Vim?
05:39:13  <TruePikachu> ":help tag" doesn't help much
05:40:24  <TruePikachu> I see, ctags
05:41:04  <TruePikachu> ...how do I use ctags?
05:42:31  <TruePikachu> I tried 'ctags *', and it doesn't seem to have worked completly
05:46:54  * TruePikachu will try to figure out how PBS works
05:50:16  <TruePikachu> cheat.cpp::InitialiseCheats sets all the cheats to unused, correct?
05:50:26  <TruePikachu> *InitializeCheats
05:51:13  <TruePikachu> I don't exactly understand C/C++
05:52:17  <TruePikachu> This is all just very amazing work
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05:56:28  <TruePikachu> What exactly is IsRadioTowerNearby() used for?
05:58:00  <TruePikachu> Oh, I see, only for random generation of immovables
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06:36:22  <TruePikachu> Anyone know where the line that tells the GUI to print a negative money amount in red is? I can't find it anywhere
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06:55:12  <Terkhen> good morning
06:58:10  <TruePikachu> How was my comment on FS#4076?
06:58:59  * TruePikachu doesn't know if Rubi will consider it 'trollish' like for FS#4070
07:02:16  <dihedral> good morning pm :-)
07:02:52  <dihedral> i had a nasty surprise just now - entered my bouncer and got a backlog of something i though was on the ignore list - seemingly the ignore list got dropped :-(
07:02:55  <dihedral> nonofair ^^
07:06:27  <TruePikachu> Hello dihedral
07:07:51  * Terkhen ponders not studying today
07:08:29  * TruePikachu is magnitizing the pins from last night
07:09:12  <dihedral> very good idea Terkhen
07:10:52  <TruePikachu> Why is everyone ignoring me?
07:11:05  <Terkhen> I hope it really is :)
07:11:35  <dihedral> i consider not working - but that is harder done when at work :-P
07:13:51  <Terkhen> :)
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07:14:29  <TruePikachu> Why must everyone ignore me?
07:15:07  <planetmaker> [09:07]	* Terkhen	ponders not studying today <-- sometimes it helps to recharge batteries :-)
07:15:15  <planetmaker> Increasing overall productiveness :-)
07:15:26  <planetmaker> also good morning Terkhen and dih
07:15:28  <dihedral> productivity ;-)
07:15:33  <dihedral> hello sir :-)
07:15:35  <TruePikachu> Hello planetmaker
07:16:08  <planetmaker> yay... TTRS 3.1 is not far off :-)
07:16:16  <dihedral> sweet :-)
07:16:21  <dihedral> my jbot is coming along too :-P
07:16:21  <TruePikachu> Wait, new release?
07:16:36  <planetmaker> parameter descriptions are there as is FIRS compatibility parameter
07:16:46  <dihedral> uh?
07:16:50  <TruePikachu> Any new graphics?
07:16:53  <Terkhen> nice :)
07:17:02  <dihedral> how many parameters? same amount as for 'base costs'? :-P
07:17:04  <planetmaker> even a Spanish description :-)
07:17:17  <planetmaker> the usual 4 plus a new to disable banks
07:17:39  * TruePikachu never really knew that TTRS had parameters
07:17:40  <dihedral> nice - that will not make it too hard i guess :-)
07:17:52  <dihedral> spanish description - what's up with you gusy? :-P way to go ^^
07:18:08  <planetmaker> dihedral: learn about action14 :-)
07:18:18  <planetmaker> and checkout a recent nightly
07:18:46  <dihedral> planetmaker, i know nothing about any action# and their whatever they are called :-P
07:18:52  <dihedral> grf is totally unknown land to me
07:19:01  <planetmaker> :-) It's a nice land to explore
07:19:14  <dihedral> i prefer a different world ;-)
07:19:24  * TruePikachu will get into GRF sometime
07:19:34  <TruePikachu> Where should I start?
07:19:43  <planetmaker> and action14 means everything is translatable. And that parameters can have an ingame description and a proper interface than cryptic numbers
07:19:59  <dihedral> nice :-)
07:20:09  <dihedral> that sounds like a very good addition to grf's
07:20:20  <planetmaker> yep. like enums, booleans and normal ints :-)
07:20:41  <planetmaker> very good step in user-accessibility to parameters
07:20:48  <dihedral> talking of those - i was nastily surprised that i could not do autoboxing in java with my own classes
07:20:49  <dihedral> :-(
07:21:05  <dihedral> i.e. Integer i = 5; <- that works and is called autoboxing
07:21:14  <dihedral> it then calles Integer.valueOf(5);
07:21:15  <TruePikachu> planetmaker: Where can I start learning GRF?
07:21:27  <dihedral> but it does not do that for your own classes :-(
07:21:29  <dihedral> fucking lame
07:22:44  <TruePikachu> Do you have any suggestions for where to start?
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07:23:10  <dihedral> Sacro!
07:27:10  <planetmaker> »» 06:58:59  * TruePikachu doesn't know if Rubi will consider it 'trollish' like for FS#4070 <-- oh yes. It's a pointless reply again
07:27:29  <TruePikachu> ? how is it pointless?
07:29:12  <TruePikachu> I explained what I thought would be a possible temporary solution
07:29:39  <planetmaker> It doesn't really add. Even though it's correct that the colour can be changed as such by an individual translator, that'd be the totally wrong approach
07:30:01  <planetmaker> Besides you don't seem to have much of a clue either ;-) Or you'd have provided a quick patch
07:30:12  <TruePikachu> Well, I can't figure any other solution from the tangle of code
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07:31:15  <TruePikachu> Remember, today was my first time looking at the source
07:31:25  <TruePikachu> I don't know my way around it all yet
07:32:07  <planetmaker> anyway, catch you later folks
07:32:09  <TruePikachu> I wouldn't have known what a 'good' solution would have been either, so I provided the solution that I would have done
07:32:13  <TruePikachu> bye
07:32:18  * TruePikachu has to go too
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07:41:53  <TruePika> Can someone tell me what town_noise_population[] in the config is for? I know it's for airport noise levels, but how exactly?
07:44:46  <TomyLobo> airports hem growth?
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07:45:52  <TruePika> No, I mean, what formula is applied?
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07:53:46  <TomyLobo> that was a question, not a snobbish assertion ^^
07:54:38  <TruePika> Oh
07:55:06  <TruePika> I am pretty sure that the values tie in to max allowed noise level per population of the city/town
07:55:40  <TruePika> I lost my notes, but, after some population, every 800 population adds one more noise unit
07:56:07  <TruePika> town...[0] is 800 by default
07:56:19  <TruePika> That's all I know of off the top of my head
07:56:28  <dihedral> so you went and changed your nick in order to avoid ignores??
07:56:50  <dihedral> does not matter - just needs a new ignore entry
07:57:45  <TruePika> ...no, TruePika is the default nick, I usually change it to TruePikachu
07:58:04  <TruePika> If you look at the history, you'll see that both are used
07:59:23  <dihedral> wiki.openttd.org <- that should help you, just do not edit it!
07:59:44  <TruePika> I've looked previously at the noise levels page
07:59:49  <TruePika> It didn't help
08:00:22  <TruePika> And why do you keep treating me as though I'm a troll or someone who's clueless?
08:00:32  <planetmaker> TomyLobo, they have no influence
08:00:42  <planetmaker> dihedral, that's different people, I think
08:01:32  <avdg> station_cmd.cpp GetAiportNoiseLevelForTown (line 2029)
08:01:36  <TruePika> planetmaker: No, I use both TruePika and TruePikachu interchangably; TruePika is for when I'm too lazy to change it to the other one
08:01:43  <TruePika> avdg: Thanks
08:02:22  <dihedral> planetmaker, it's not ^^
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08:06:31  <TruePika> Umm...GetAirportNoiseLevelForTown seems to be for calculating noise reduction from distance, not maximum permitted noise level
08:06:51  <avdg> its just a part
08:06:54  <planetmaker> dihedral, maybe then I deduced wrongly whom you meant. My ignore works independent of the nick ;-)
08:07:05  <avdg> but again, I failed to unwire the calls (and find them)
08:07:28  * TruePika will grep the source
08:08:15  <dihedral> planetmaker, mine did not :-(
08:08:20  <TruePika> Well, it is in that file somewhere
08:08:28  <dihedral> ponders writing his own ignore module - this one is buggy :-(
08:08:33  <TruePika> dihedral: Why are you setting an ignore entry on me?
08:08:51  <dihedral> TruePika, if you have issues on this network, join #oftc
08:08:54  <dihedral> hehe
08:09:16  <dihedral> or any other irc network questions
08:10:24  *** avdg1 [~Adium@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
08:10:25  <TruePika> avdg: Maybe it isn't, I'll check the town sources
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08:10:34  <avdg1> hmm network :(
08:10:42  <avdg1> 2 min offline
08:11:10  <avdg1> truePika: I found nothing at the town source
08:11:37  <avdg1> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/13226/
08:12:05  <avdg1> thats the commit when the patch was added
08:12:26  <avdg1> hm
08:12:31  * TruePika is loading it
08:13:15  <avdg1> ah, town_gui
08:13:22  <avdg1> never looked at there
08:13:35  <avdg1> but its useless too
08:14:04  <TruePika> GetAirportNoiseLevelForTown seems to be the place, looking at the diff, but I couldn't find it there
08:14:23  <TruePika> wait, nvm
08:14:55  <TruePika> MaxTownNoise
08:15:30  <avdg1> thats a header file -_-
08:15:56  <TruePika> But it's in there
08:16:06  <avdg1> 131
08:16:11  <avdg1> linenumber
08:16:13  <TruePika> Apparently, only one of those config lines are used
08:16:14  *** avdg1 is now known as avdg
08:16:18  <TruePika> I found it
08:16:32  <TruePika> I thought it would be more like the signal weights
08:16:56  <avdg> indeed, its just population
08:17:10  <TruePika> And now I know that it isn't a base 800
08:17:27  <TruePika> I'll add to Wiki
08:18:22  <avdg> hmm
08:20:24  <avdg> economy.town_noise_population has also some cool values
08:20:47  <avdg> do "listsettings economy.town_noise"
08:20:56  <dihedral> and then people wonder why the wiki has so much junk and wrong information
08:22:35  <TruePika> Added to the Airports page
08:22:46  <avdg> url?
08:22:46  <TruePika> dihedral: That's because it's barely ever updated or checked
08:22:56  <TruePika> http://wiki.openttd.org/Airports
08:23:24  <avdg> thats also because someone who only looked 5 min at the source edits the wiki
08:23:50  <TruePika> How was the edit?
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08:26:33  * TruePika thinks we should get a team set up to update the Wiki to 1.0
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08:32:53  <TruePika> Lol, was just doing a web search, and came across a rogue site. Will post screenshot
08:37:47  <TruePika> I was searching for NewGRF information, clicked a link, got redirected forcibly, and got this:
08:37:52  <TruePika> http://imagebin.ca/view/fG6IXn.html
08:38:30  <TruePika> Of course I disable JavaScript
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08:43:33  * TruePika wonders why people have to be so cruel to other people
08:43:53  <blathijs> If that image is cruel to people, why did you just post a link to it?
08:44:07  <blathijs> Or does the image show cruelty? :-)
08:44:53  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-93-163.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:45:29  <TruePika> It is cruel as it is like a trojan
08:45:36  <peter1138> it's just an image of a fake virus scanner
08:45:42  <Goulp> this image shows us that windows is still a main target for faking people
08:45:59  <TruePika> I'm running KDE as you can see, not Windows
08:46:13  <Goulp> KDE on linux...
08:46:40  <TruePika> And another result got the same thing - but I stopped this one in it's tracks (and need to get AdBlock to block it)
08:47:05  <TruePika> All I'm trying to do is find a site with a tutorial on NewGRF coding
08:47:05  <Goulp> its a fake for noob people
08:47:18  <avdg> just remove these links and ignore them
08:47:30  <Goulp> ttdpatch wiki ?
08:47:42  <TruePika> Yeah, and I also search further
08:48:18  <TruePika> At least two of these on the first 50 Google results O_o
08:48:18  <avdg> I found also an other wiki fully under spam
08:48:19  <dihedral> gnome :-)
08:48:44  <avdg> seems that a small kind of protection is required
08:48:45  * TruePika hasn't bothered with installing a new X server - KDE came default on VectorLinux
08:49:18  <TruePika> Point is, these kinds of guys are just annoying.
08:49:40  <TruePika> O_o Web of Trust gives an excellant rating for the site
08:49:57  <avdg> thats not the first time
08:50:45  <TruePika> Thank goodness WoT will block low rated site
08:50:48  <TruePika> *sites
08:50:59  <TruePika> I did absolute minimum rating ;)
08:54:38  <planetmaker> yeah, that's needed. On my server I wrote the PW for editing a small wiki on the main page. Since I enforce this password for editing, no bot has edited anything anymore ;-)
08:55:01  <TruePika> Lol
08:55:19  <TruePika> Just wait until the bot programmers target your wiki
08:55:35  * avdg wonders if the wiki has support for semi protection
08:55:58  <TruePika> Most likely it would
08:56:33  <TruePika> I'm pretty sure it's built off of MediaWiki, which allows for semiprotection (if we're talking about wiki.openttd.org)
08:57:14  <avdg> donno, I didn't checked when it was implemented :p
08:57:16  <TruePika> But semiprotection doesn't block dedicated spammers, as they'll wait
08:57:27  <planetmaker> depends: which one :-)
08:59:19  <TruePika> There should be a system which will require 5-10 edits to be made, and trusted users have to rate them as good edits before the user would be able to edit semiprotected pages
08:59:37  <avdg> 5-10 :p
08:59:49  <avdg> thats easy for an advanced spammer
08:59:58  <TruePika> 50-100 ;)
08:59:59  <avdg> you mean 5-10 approved edits
09:00:03  <TruePika> Yes
09:01:26  <TruePika> I guess 5-10 approved edits before autoapproval, and 20 edits that get rated by other users who have all been approved of before semi-protected editing is approved for the user in question
09:02:21  <TruePika> Along those lines could reduce spam significantly
09:03:03  <TruePika> :( another virus scanner. But WoT blocked :)
09:03:36  <avdg> you never know what will happen if some 'trusted' person get angry :p
09:04:03  <avdg> but yes, most spam will be blocked I guess
09:04:21  <TruePika> A panel of 100 users will have to vote
09:04:33  <avdg> please keep it simple :p
09:04:38  <TruePika> Fine, 10
09:04:46  <avdg> openttd is about fun, not about rules :p
09:05:01  <TruePika> Well, yes, but spam should not be tolerated
09:05:12  <avdg> indeed, its horrible
09:05:19  * TruePika has evil idea
09:05:32  <avdg> but you can go so far, that spam affects all users (protection)
09:06:06  <avdg> and guess who is the winner then
09:06:50  <TruePika> If a user from 145.23.8.23 spams, then IP address 145.23.8.23/1 gets permabanned :)
09:07:15  <TruePika> (Yes, half the internet)
09:08:40  <TruePika> brb
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09:19:19  <dihedral> Rubidium, could it make sense to have a 'admins list' similar to that of the 'ban list' which defines ip's which may run rcon commands without rcon password?
09:19:38  <dihedral> or some other mechanism of 'authenticating' to be able to send rcon with no password
09:20:08  <dihedral> and then include the bigbrother patch in a way that would only send clientid to those clients who authenticated or are in the 'admins list'?
09:20:58  <VVG> hello
09:22:29  <Terkhen> hi VVG
09:25:22  <planetmaker> hi VVG
09:27:19  <TruePika> Hello VVG
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10:06:01  <VVG> Is 24h enough of a time span to make assumptions about how interesting a patch is after posting it on tt-forums?
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10:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no
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10:11:04  <planetmaker> VVG, certainly not. at least a week
10:12:06  <dihedral> VVG, 24h real time or virtual time?
10:12:57  <VVG> :)
10:13:42  <Noldo> VVG: what did you post?
10:14:43  <VVG> Noldo: virtual time part from ITiM as a separate patch for current trunk
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10:45:33  <TheUros> anyone here ?
10:45:38  <Noldo> always
10:45:52  <planetmaker> never
10:46:13  <planetmaker> @topic get -2
10:46:14  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
10:46:16  <VVG> certainly not
10:47:37  <TomyLobo> dihedral how about a simple solution instead, like a password database? :)
10:48:25  <dihedral> TomyLobo, define database?
10:48:38  <TomyLobo> like the password manager in <insert browser name>
10:49:09  <TomyLobo> if you want, encrypted with a master password which you enter when it's first accessed
10:49:13  <TheUros> ok i have a question .... if some oil rig have a litle oil production .. what rthis mean .. it's going to close or is there a way to increase that production ?
10:49:48  <TomyLobo> TheUros how many trains do you have to carry away the oil?
10:49:52  <planetmaker> transport the oil. You may rescue it
10:50:01  <TheUros> just one ...
10:50:09  <TomyLobo> oh, oil rig or land-based oil well?
10:50:18  <TheUros> land based
10:50:18  <planetmaker> have some train or ship or heli constantly load
10:50:26  <planetmaker> hm. That may and will close
10:50:28  <TomyLobo> land-based ones do never increase
10:50:31  <TheUros> aha
10:50:32  <TomyLobo> (on temperate)
10:50:49  <TomyLobo> i.e. they will rot and die
10:50:51  <TheUros> aha so if one oil well has stady oil production ?
10:51:03  <TomyLobo> ignore land-based oil
10:51:04  <TomyLobo> it sucks
10:51:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you should always have at least two trains at any industry
10:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> so there is always one train loading
10:51:39  <TomyLobo> what he said (for anything but oil)
10:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that heavily increases the amount of cargo you get
10:51:51  <TomyLobo> for oil wells you should always have less than one train
10:51:53  <TomyLobo> :)
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10:54:55  <VVG> why oil wells are so special compared to other industries?
10:55:19  <TheUros> ok .. another question .. .  i played TT deluxe few years ago .. i'm new in openTTD ....  i have a station at coal mine from wich i transport coal  .. nearby i have another coal mine .. what is the best option: A: transport coal directly to poweplant or B: transport coal to main station and from there to powerplant ?
10:56:07  <planetmaker> whatever you like
10:56:14  <TheUros> my question referes to seccond smaller coal mine
10:56:22  <planetmaker> there's no general "best" option
10:56:25  <dihedral> whatever you like to setup
10:56:41  <dihedral> personal preference wins, you should enjoy building ;-)
10:56:49  <planetmaker> as "best" depends upon a definition of a goal. Which may vastly differ for different players
10:57:07  <planetmaker> goal as in 'I like to play this way'
10:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: why should all industries be the same?
10:58:52  <TheUros> Is there any difference in payement if i transport cargo from A to B directly or i have a middle transfer station on wich i reload cargo from one train to another?
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10:59:43  <VVG> Eddi|zuHause: that has nothing to do with my question :)
11:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it does.
11:00:22  <VVG> how come?
11:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called duality ;)
11:00:33  <TomyLobo> VVG oil wells are the only industries that never increase production
11:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you can get the answer to your first question, by answering the opposite question
11:01:08  <VVG> okay, let me put it another way
11:01:24  <VVG> Why is it that only oil wells do not increase their production?
11:01:48  <planetmaker> why does only the powerplant accept coal? :-)
11:02:17  <TheUros> because oil well have a tube in the ground of fixed dimensions.. they can't pump more and that tube cannot be replaced :)
11:03:17  <Rubidium> VVG: like many game mechanics related questions, the answer is simple: "Chris wrote it to work like that".
11:03:44  <VVG> got it
11:04:04  <VVG> planetmaker: err, what about still mill?
11:04:17  <dihedral> a still mill does nothing at all
11:05:25  <VVG> oh, mix up things here with firs :(
11:05:48  <TheUros> if i have a coal mine and powerplant very close to each other .. is worth it to tranfer coal or is better to find far away power station ?
11:06:14  <VVG> payment you get is travel distance per time basically
11:06:45  <TheUros> so the cloas relations are worthless
11:06:50  <TheUros> close
11:06:57  <Rubidium> TheUros: depending on the speed there is a sweet spot of profit for each delivery, more can be found on the game mechanics page on the wiki
11:07:46  <VVG> TheUros: kinda. There is an ingame cargo payment graph that shows what you get per distance
11:08:56  <TheUros> another noob q. .... transport cargo from A to B .... is there any payment difference fow one run if the train gets imediatly full load or it waits few minutes to get fully load ?   i mean just for one run ..
11:09:47  <VVG> TheUros: As about your question A or B, i'd say this depends more on what kind of a network you build. Complex with lots of trains - A. If you want to lessen complexity - it's B
11:11:57  <TheUros> hm .. i try to build each time more complex network .. i'm just wonderig how not to loose money because of my network configuration
11:12:56  <planetmaker> deliver long-distance is generally a good advise.
11:13:00  <dihedral> TheUros, join some #openttdcoop games and learn ;-)
11:13:46  <planetmaker> even though there may be distances beyond which the additional income one delivery gets doesn't increase the overall overturn anymore
11:16:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an optimal distance based on speed, payment rate and "late delivery" penalty
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11:23:12  <CruelCoke> 0hai
11:23:39  <CruelCoke> LOL, how come openttd.exe runs successfully in a BROKEN Wine?
11:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Ex falso quod libet
11:25:12  <CruelCoke> speak English, pls
11:25:30  <CruelCoke> |_|
11:28:05  <ccfreak2k> Latin for "everything follows a contradiction".
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11:28:21  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I'd say it's rather "ex falso quodlibet" ;-)
11:28:28  <planetmaker> ccfreak2k, that sounds wrongly translated
11:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: probably
11:28:38  <Rubidium> not qvod?
11:29:13  <planetmaker> ... though the wiki says so.
11:29:14  <planetmaker> strange
11:29:39  <planetmaker> from wrong (assumptions / basis) anything (can be deduced)
11:31:07  <dihedral> root_? :-P
11:31:14  <dihedral> that means root is also online?
11:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> all hail the almighty root!
11:33:54  <CruelCoke> it's weird that openttd.exe runs in a BROKEN Wine
11:34:21  <planetmaker> why is that weired?
11:34:55  <CruelCoke> if Wine is broken (failed to download it's super-package), nothing would run
11:36:13  <Rubidium> so OpenTTD just doesn't need that much of wine to run
11:36:31  <CruelCoke> And yet openttd.exe in broken Wine seems to act the same as a normal "linux generic"
11:37:04  <CruelCoke> it's probably because you compiled OpenTTD the DLLless way
11:37:35  <Rubidium> not completely. It still needs GDI and the likes
11:38:15  <CruelCoke> and those are present even in BROKEN Wine?
11:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> CruelCoke: maybe the program just doesn't work the way you think it works?
11:38:53  <Rubidium> well, they aren't present in OpenTTD
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11:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> what a strange person...
11:54:58  <VVG> It seems to me current vehicle sorters are comletely clueless about the window that called them :(
11:56:31  <VVG> If i were to impletent a vehicle sorter for station gui, that sorts based on arrivale/departure times, in what way in can be done so as to stay as close to current sorter implementation, as possible?
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12:01:47  <Terkhen> VVG: the vehicle list window already has sorting implemented, you only need to follow existing implementation to add new values
12:02:04  <Terkhen> but that window is probably not aware of arrival/departure times
12:05:46  <VVG> sorters only recevie vehicle ids. code for a/d times is avaible in timetable_gui. Main thing is, is to tie the station that called the sorter to the order index in sorter. And not allow that particular sorter be called from other places, such as toolbar's vehicle list.
12:05:51  <VVG> Trying to figure that out
12:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> all that should already be part of ITiM
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12:09:14  <Terkhen> I had to implement some sorters that would only be displayed if realistic acceleration for road vehicles was on, see r19348
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12:28:42  <avdg> -_- 1 more osx bug
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12:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> in german, we have the "Ablage P" for that kind of stuff ;)
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12:41:49  <dihedral> heh - never heard of that ^^
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12:43:43  * roboboy ponders trying to read oldload.cpp again
12:47:21  <roboboy> In TT(O)(D) savegames, is the company title string null terminated?
12:48:15  <roboboy> or rather the savegame title
12:48:40  <Rubidium> IIRC it isn't
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12:49:42  <roboboy> ok
12:51:37  <Belugas> hello
12:52:30  <Eddi|zuHause> my memory is a little vague, but i had the impression it was fixed length...
12:52:51  <roboboy> ok
12:53:38  <roboboy> so TTO and TTD use different lengths though
12:54:03  <roboboy> thats what I can make out from the OpenTTD source
12:54:14  <Terkhen> hello Belugas
12:54:39  <Belugas> hi senor Terkhen
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13:26:32  <[hta]specx> Rubidium: http://wiki.luukland.net/index.php/User:Luukland
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13:30:14  <dihedral> [hta]specx, and?
13:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> did i ever mention that i love people who post links without context
13:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
13:30:50  <dihedral> It isn't a secret that the Luukland's Servers team doesn't like Rubidium <- so he does not want any admin on his team who has an own oppiniont, how poor is that? :-P
13:31:14  <dihedral> hehe
13:31:32  <peter1138> oppiniont?
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13:32:33  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no you didn't, or at least the logs that Luukland gets don't have that
13:33:00  <Rubidium> at I can't find that I have said what I am supposed to have said in my logs
13:33:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean "Even a child can do better coding"? ;)
13:34:00  <dihedral> ^^
13:34:01  <Rubidium> no, the trolling thing
13:34:24  <Terkhen> the whole link is childish
13:35:52  <Rubidium> or... Luukland == TruePika(chu)
13:36:27  <dihedral> bless you
13:36:44  <Rubidium> as in that case I have said the thing about trolling and being stupid, but not the bit about being arrogant
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13:38:29  <Rubidium> unless he's paraphrasing in which case it's going to be hard to find
13:38:35  <avdg> hmm truePica == nl?
13:38:46  <avdg> I know luukland undestands dutch
13:38:53  <avdg> *understands
13:39:14  <VVG> "Thank you for taking the time to fill out the following online form. If you do not want to submit your information, click Cancel." If i don't submit it, i don't receive a VC++ express reg key?
13:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i was under the impression TrueGesundheit was american
13:41:11  <avdg> :p wiki is not protected
13:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> avdg: report it as a security risk! :p
13:41:47  <avdg> lol
13:42:05  <avdg> I'm not his bugreporter
13:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> which reminds me... nobody posted any bash-style links in a while...
13:43:00  <Rubidium> ah well... we're a dictator because we favour less freedom over fixing crashes and preventing security issues. I'm fine with that!
13:43:23  <avdg> he has his own world
13:43:36  <avdg> and is dependent on openttd's binaries
13:43:40  <avdg> so what :p
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13:45:39  <dihedral> he has his own world and he is known there, so that is fine too :-P
13:46:43  <Hirundo> "freedom of modifying costs without the need of a newgrf" <- what exactly is wrong with the basecosts mod, available on bananas (or he could write/distribute his own grf for that matter)
13:47:23  <avdg> he doesn't know/tell us why the devteam did it
13:47:35  <avdg> I am sure there was a good reason for it
13:48:24  <Rubidium> oh... we've been even worse: we allow the object prices and such to be reset and only to be set by one NewGRF and a NewGRF's vehicle base price only influences it's own vehicle
13:48:40  <avdg> but again, they are dependent on openttd's binaries, if he doesn't like the binaries, he should move away
13:48:40  <Rubidium> and *that* is what he doesn't like, as it broke his hack the savegame technique
13:49:36  <Rubidium> basically because we calculate it from scratch whenever loading a game instead of using the data from the savegame
13:50:26  <dihedral> heh
13:50:34  <dihedral> happens
13:53:29  <avdg> hmm
 was it a rule that luukland had to show his source before he may use it on his server?
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13:53:41  <Rubidium> no
13:54:09  <Rubidium> if we would include his code it would mean less work for him, but we determined that the code was fishy and needed improvements
13:54:41  <Rubidium> like using floats, which don't behave the same on all processors, for game logic calculations
13:55:22  <Noldo> it seems he didn't know why that would be a problem
13:56:40  <avdg> I think he took the issues personal
13:57:00  <avdg> else he wouldn't be that mad
13:57:30  <dihedral> he behaves childish simply by posting that ^^
13:58:11  <dihedral> lol - that was written today? :-D
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13:58:38  <avdg> yeah
14:00:41  <Yexo> someone should let him read this so he can add "childish" to the names he is called
14:03:00  <dihedral> edit the wiki and past it :-D
14:03:18  <Rubidium> or fill it with [citation needed] :)
14:03:27  <dihedral> hehe
14:03:59  <Rubidium> This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.
14:04:02  <Rubidium> - Its neutrality is disputed
14:04:16  <Rubidium> - This article does not cite any references or sources.
14:04:36  <dihedral> i have the feeling [hta]specx is somewhat known to luuklands world ^^
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14:05:05  <Rubidium> oh, and for proper example, citations for the above 3 lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Tycoon and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZodTTD
14:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: at least the second article would be long gone in the german wikipedia for lack of meeting the notability criteria
14:10:58  <dihedral> his wikii does not have those templates :-(
14:11:07  <avdg> create it then :p
14:11:14  <avdg> or do a fake one
14:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: post this log to the discussion page ;)
14:12:50  <avdg> hmm
14:13:06  <avdg> If I watch his logs I see he is already complaining about spam
14:13:31  <avdg> check http://wiki.luukland.net/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Luukland
14:18:36  <Belugas> ho ben... an unsatisfied customer
14:19:03  <Belugas> might consider reembursing him
14:19:31  <dihedral> http://wiki.luukland.net/index.php/User_talk:Luukland
14:21:02  <dihedral> uh - page is slow now ^^
14:21:07  <avdg> me too
14:21:43  <dihedral> how to ddos ^^
14:21:54  <avdg> :p
14:22:16  <avdg> opening google translate in an other tab :p
14:22:24  <roboboy> hm yeah his userpage is sloow
14:22:51  <dihedral> the entire page is :-P
14:27:37  <avdg> hmm
14:27:46  <avdg> whats wrong at that page?
14:28:00  <dihedral> working again
14:28:01  <Belugas> obviously, many people reading it
14:29:06  <avdg> oh, discussion :o
14:29:28  <avdg> ohno, luukland is going to ban me :p
14:30:41  <dihedral> hihihi
14:31:59  <dihedral> lol - his rules are cute: you are not allowed to compete with yourself :-P
14:35:54  <dihedral> "!Iron Ore - note that both I and O in ore are capital letters!"
14:36:43  <Rubidium> there is an I in ore?
14:38:27  <dihedral> thats what i thought, might be missing something
14:38:55  <Ammler> well, but still, those servers are the most successful
14:39:14  <Ammler> so at least something he is doing right...
14:39:36  <dihedral> until yet another openttd update and nobody around to be able to migrate the whopping huge patch
14:39:56  <dihedral> Muxy, you do not like Rubidium ?
14:41:23  <Ammler> :-o not many nightly servers
14:41:50  <Rubidium> Ammler: or it is just reinforcing itself; many people, means more people join because it's an active server instead of those 200 other 24/7 idling servers
14:42:28  <avdg> its popular because its on top of the list
14:42:51  <Ammler> hmm
14:43:11  <dihedral> There are 199 clients, 199 IPv4 servers and 21 IPv6 servers <- wow
14:43:20  <dihedral> finally reached one client per ipv4 server ^^
14:44:28  <dihedral> avdg, it's sorted by number of clients
14:44:43  <avdg> hmm
14:45:36  <avdg> dihedral: stable or nightly?
14:45:52  <avdg> or what list?
14:45:57  <dihedral> ...
14:46:36  <dihedral> time to head home
14:46:38  <dihedral> o/
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14:47:57  <Ammler> at least people are used to bananas now...
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14:48:54  <LunarWolf> I have a problem with rendering. My textures are barely visible. Almost white.
14:49:24  <LunarWolf> I use 3dsmax 2011
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14:49:42  <peter1138> 2011?
14:49:47  <peter1138> back to the future, eh?
14:50:00  <peter1138> i suggest you ask autodesk
14:50:07  <LunarWolf> yep 2011
14:50:19  <peter1138> they probably know of some books that might help you
14:51:17  <peter1138> it amazes me how so many people can afford the 00 asking price
14:51:56  <LunarWolf> downloaded the file from the scene with a ready http://wiki.openttd.org/32bit_Graphics_Development_Documentation
14:52:11  <LunarWolf> file for max
14:52:28  <LunarWolf> and here the problems began to
14:52:43  <peter1138> does it work without that scene?
14:53:00  <LunarWolf> normally like to use something else, it all goes well I
14:53:22  <peter1138> i like to use gimp for making graphics
14:53:35  <peter1138> mind you, they turn out crap
14:54:42  <LunarWolf> I've got Adobe CS4 Production
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15:06:36  <Goulp> here i am
15:08:09  <planetmaker> we're waiting for your patches, Goulp ;-)
15:08:42  <Goulp> what patches ?
15:09:10  <KingJ> Sounds like this could be a long wait ;p
15:09:32  <Goulp> i have already posted some patches, you dont remember ?
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15:12:25  <planetmaker> :-) I guess that's true, though indeed I don't remember the details :-)
15:12:33  <peter1138> hmm, anyone using monodevelop?
15:12:34  <planetmaker> I don't recall that anything hit trunk ;-)
15:13:17  <Goulp> pm: may be not code, but some ideas
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15:13:38  <Goulp> like date & time in log & console, setting_new game feature
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15:14:25  <Goulp> like reseting company if no vehicle
15:16:06  <Goulp> and the last patch - Watch Company - is not ready for trunk.
15:17:57  <planetmaker> :-)
15:18:11  <Goulp> it needs some litle fixing & improovements
15:18:26  <planetmaker> it'd be nice, if it were more than ideas, saving double work :-)
15:18:42  <planetmaker> Why don't you publish them, so that feedback could be given?
15:19:24  <Goulp> i have made also a save company password system to restart server from savegame to keep those password
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15:20:26  <Goulp> wrote some wiki pages about TCP protocols on 0.7.x release, but some people said its useless
15:20:47  <planetmaker> he
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15:22:42  <Goulp> also working for the french community TTFF
15:24:36  <Goulp> and last work was helping in the Luukland's Servers
15:25:33  <Goulp> so, helping in main community, may be not, may be yes, but working around OpenTTD : sure
15:26:09  <planetmaker> Goulp, I didn't mean to doubt that you do a lot around OpenTTD. Actually I'm quite convinced that you do :-)
15:26:38  <Goulp> pm: thks for that
15:26:45  <planetmaker> I basically wanted to express a slight disappointment that the patches running on one of the most popular servers are all closed-source ;-)
15:27:09  <Goulp> they are closed for the moment to avoid comment like "its shit"
15:27:15  <planetmaker> :-)
15:27:29  <planetmaker> would that matter?
15:28:15  <planetmaker> it wouldn't change a thing, but you'd get feedback. Not all positive for sure. And possibly also answers like 'you do it wrong!'
15:28:23  <planetmaker> But you might actually also get valuable feedback
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15:30:06  <Goulp> but some people around here, have this behaviour to say : this is shit, this is bad, you are lazy, cant you search yourself, etc...
15:30:29  <planetmaker> in German we have a saying which translates somewhat to "what does the tree care, if the pig scratches itself on it" ;-)
15:30:59  <planetmaker> yes, those people will respond, for sure. But: so what :-)
15:31:17  <Goulp> and coz they are in good terms with Remko, use it as if they where him itself
15:31:37  <VVG> in russian, it's "the barks, but caravan goes on", that's my rough translation
15:31:42  <VVG> the dog*
15:32:04  <planetmaker> similar, yes :-)
15:32:08  <Goulp> and sure, at the very begining, i made some mistakes about some flyspray bug report
15:33:02  <Goulp> and i try to improve my knowledges on OpenTTD source code, but as everybody here, this is not my life
15:33:12  <planetmaker> :-)
15:33:33  <Goulp> and as lot of you knows, i'm no more a student
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15:34:12  <planetmaker> I don't, but... that doesn't have an influence on my publication behaviour ;-)
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15:35:28  <Goulp> yeap, but some publications have been made with a lot of angryness, and some are happy to link them here, and some other to argue about it
15:35:51  <planetmaker> :-)
15:35:56  * roboboy ponders going to bed over writing some vb code to check the TTD savegame title checksum
15:36:36  <planetmaker> well, main point is, that patches need development against trunk. And stable server patches either die quickly or they mean A LOT of work when there's again the major version step
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15:37:33  <planetmaker> And I know that the *idea* of goals is definitely something considered quite worthwhile
15:37:44  <planetmaker> Just it's a lot of work... as it needs a proper framework
15:38:02  <planetmaker> maybe also thrown in some scripting or admin access. Who knows
15:38:19  <Belugas> just as map accesors was :) (work, lottsa)
15:38:27  <planetmaker> And it'd probably be more fruitful, if it were openly discussed than island solutions found for this here and another thing there
15:38:46  <Goulp> yeap but to make things go on, couldn't it be good to have better commnication between dev team and communities admins ?
15:39:02  <Goulp> *comunication
15:39:16  <planetmaker> do you think that it is bad?
15:39:20  <dihedral> lol ^^
15:39:34  <planetmaker> besides, what's a "community admin"?
15:39:37  <planetmaker> Server owners?
15:39:39  <Goulp> dihedral: please dont put water on warm oil please
15:39:55  <dihedral> Goulp, i done nothing ;-)
15:40:04  * Rubidium wonders what the principal difference is between the goal communities and the coop community
15:40:21  <planetmaker> :-)
15:40:30  <dihedral> hehe
15:40:41  <Goulp> community admin is people who organize it and their dev team
15:40:58  <Goulp> and the guys who has some ideas about it
15:41:05  <Rubidium> it can't be "rough communication", as that's happening with the coop community as well
15:41:06  <planetmaker> ok :-)
15:41:20  <planetmaker> hehe @ Rubidium
15:41:40  <dihedral> just that those guys pay more attention to what's going on
15:41:45  <planetmaker> I guess all people have somewhat their own ideas.
15:42:22  <planetmaker> Some things are differently assessed. But that's life. That happens everywhere
15:42:39  <planetmaker> in real-life. At work. In peer-groups off-work...
15:42:42  <Goulp> luukland need to have some offcial existence from main dev team
15:42:51  <dihedral> ??
15:42:59  <planetmaker> I don't get what you mean, Goulp
15:43:02  <Goulp> sure
15:43:15  <Goulp> i will google it to have better translation, sorry
15:43:24  <Yexo> assistance isntead of existence ?
15:43:34  <planetmaker> that would make sense
15:44:05  <dihedral> ah
15:44:06  <Goulp> recognition is better
15:44:06  <dihedral> ^^
15:44:07  <Belugas> or acknowledgement of existence, maybe
15:44:14  <dihedral> what??
15:44:27  <Goulp> luukland needs recognition from openttd dev team
15:44:31  <Ammler> [17:41] <Rubidium> it can't be "rough communication", as that's happening with the coop community as well <-- confirmed ;-)
15:44:38  <planetmaker> In what form, Goulp ?
15:44:48  <planetmaker> What do you expect to happen?
15:44:57  <planetmaker> As a real honest question
15:45:29  <Goulp> to recognize that the way the luukland comunity makes its servers run is not BAD or SHIT or HACK
15:45:39  <dihedral> what??
15:45:43  <planetmaker> Myself I certainly have the desire to see some improved form of logging capability when it comes to server administration
15:46:13  <dihedral> am i going bonkers is is that guys honestly asking for some odd stuff?
15:46:19  <planetmaker> So that I know for sure who is bad. Next thing would be something like the possibility to limit some commands
15:46:21  <Belugas> Goulp, I think that what you are requesting is a blind check to whatever Luukland is doing.  Like accepting it as it is.
15:46:37  <Goulp> not a blind check
15:46:48  <planetmaker> :-)
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15:47:06  <dihedral> but seeing that you all do not like Rubidium anyway, it will be easy for him to decline your request
15:47:18  <dihedral> hehe
15:47:22  <planetmaker> Goulp, I think one - if not the main - issue is that of course the luukland servers in principle are not what they claim to be
15:47:45  <planetmaker> (they're patched and not 'stable')
15:47:56  <planetmaker> But for a goal server that's of course somewhat necessary
15:47:59  <planetmaker> currently
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15:48:07  <dihedral> run 100% clean release / trunk version ;-)
15:48:17  <Goulp> they are less stable than a stable release who is not 100% stable itself
15:48:41  <dihedral> i think you are misunderstanding the word 'stable'
15:48:42  <planetmaker> I meant 'stable' as description for official release version. The latter would have been the better word
15:48:50  <planetmaker> Yes, those are not 100% stable either
15:49:02  <avdg> hmm
 luukland has responded
15:49:09  <roboboy> I see it kinda being like Zodttd and his iPa/od version. someone correct me if my understanding is broken
15:49:26  <Goulp> but i dont request that the luukland or goulp patch need to be blinded trunked
15:49:47  <planetmaker> And we're basically from where I started: in order to improve the 'acceptance' or 'recognition' as you call it, it is very helpful to play with open cards, especially concerning the used patches
15:49:58  <Goulp> but about luukland server and all people can see that
15:50:18  <Goulp> they give another to play OpenTTD, and lot of players LIKE it
15:50:21  <Rubidium> roboboy: ZodTTD is something different
15:50:29  <dihedral> i still run by: have a patched game / server, forget to have support
15:50:30  <planetmaker> Goulp, exactly. People like it
15:50:33  <Goulp> *another wait
15:50:41  <Goulp> pfff *another WAY
15:50:57  <planetmaker> That's why developing it openly, allowing for criticism (which may be very rought at times, yes, I know that)
15:51:03  <Goulp> because they have more func server sided
15:51:18  <planetmaker> But that way, this very good idea can slowly but steadily move piece by piece into trunk code
15:51:31  <Goulp> yeap but the only critics we have had from begining : its shit, its hack, its bad
15:51:45  <planetmaker> :-)
15:52:04  <planetmaker> The approach might be arguable.
15:52:05  <dihedral> Goulp, and you are too proud to try another approach?
15:52:22  <planetmaker> And you said yourself: <some patch> is not trunk ready.
15:52:32  <Goulp> dihedral: dont waste time to write to me, you are in my "boitàkon"
15:52:45  <dihedral> then how come you can read my messages? :-P
15:52:46  <planetmaker> I also wrote a number of patches. Of course not every made it in trunk
15:52:48  <Rubidium> the question remains whether it is actually been said to be "shit", or that the (strongly?) voiced remarks on those patches made their respective developers think we meant it's shit
15:52:56  <planetmaker> A number of things were completely differently tackled
15:53:11  <dihedral> ^^
15:53:20  <dihedral> i recall writing patches, i recall first responses too
15:53:29  <Goulp> may be its not well organized and must be improoved, but the servers are running
15:53:35  <dihedral> and i recall investing hours of work in order for them to find acceptance
15:53:43  <dihedral> and perhaps even find a way into trunk
15:53:57  <planetmaker> Goulp, sure, your servers are running. Now. And what happens when we'll have 1.1.0-Rc1?
15:54:03  <dihedral> 0.6.2 servers are running too
15:54:08  <Rubidium> and using floats in game logic makes a patch a "bad" patch because it will (eventually) cause a desync
15:54:29  <Goulp> publish the 1.1.0 RC1, then the patch will evoluate
15:54:52  <Rubidium> more specifically, the instance of the patch idea that uses floats is "bad" but not necessarily the idea
15:54:57  <Goulp> and when the 1.0
15:55:23  <Goulp> and when the 1.1.0 stable will be released, then Luuklands will start in 1.1.0 asap
15:55:23  <planetmaker> I've seen the transition aches for goals from 0.7.x to 1.0.x
15:55:59  <planetmaker> yes. asap. With continuously developed patches that asap will be MUCH shorter. Especially as parts of such patch might find its way as spin-off into trunk
15:56:01  <Rubidium> see e.g. the whole copy-paste thing. I have *only* said that the current implementation isn't finished and not very maintainable. Due to people reading that and telling that to others it becomes that the OpenTTD developers reject the concept of copying and pasting stuff
15:56:33  <planetmaker> I think those things Zuu for example does are usually nice examples: one idea and then it gets often piecewise, not necessarily in short succession into trunk
15:56:36  <Goulp> copy-paste still crashes
15:56:40  <planetmaker> Some ideas he persued for over two years
15:57:13  <Goulp> i can understand that this patch is not ready to be trunked and released
15:57:20  <Goulp> even lot of people need it
15:58:01  <dihedral> how on earth did we actually get from finding "acceptance" to getting a patch into trunk?
15:58:17  <dihedral> ^ out of curiosity, not meaning to bitch around ;-)
15:58:59  <Goulp> and i dont speak about the client admin patch
15:59:25  <planetmaker> Goulp, so my main point is: 'acceptance' is easier gathered by open development, accepting also (harsh) criticism (we're no kindergarten here, no pony zoo either).
15:59:31  <planetmaker> But it's not a personal thing often
15:59:45  <Goulp> and no gladiator arena
15:59:48  <planetmaker> Often those harsh replies also contain a hint what to go for
16:00:15  <planetmaker> I would like to see some of those goal functionality truely implemented.
16:00:32  <planetmaker> There are thousands of people playing it single player. They'd profit of it a lot
16:00:44  <planetmaker> Compared to that number the MP goals is low, very low
16:00:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20609 /trunk/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#3702]: crash when a NewGRF defined an invalid substitute type for a house and the NewGRF was removed during the game
16:01:01  <planetmaker> And some additional goals than score, network beauty or money won't hurt this game
16:01:20  <Goulp> does someone remembers kurt server here ?
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16:01:48  <planetmaker> yes, I do
16:01:54  <Goulp> i dont know how much recognition he has from openttd dev team
16:01:55  <dihedral> yep
16:02:20  <planetmaker> So, all I want to say basically is: heads up. Do your mods openly. Then the game will evolve. Then your idea of a good game can grow. Can mature
16:02:53  <planetmaker> Don't mind the occasional lion out there. They only bark. They don't bite ;-) (mixing figures of speach ;-) )
16:02:58  <Goulp> i would like to hear that from all the dev team
16:03:14  <planetmaker> nah, you don't expect invitation, do you?
16:03:36  <planetmaker> that's over-estimating yourself :-)
16:04:01  <Rubidium> I remember the name kurt
16:04:21  <dihedral> patched server, with mysql connection to log stuff, end game at company value of x
16:04:34  <planetmaker> jo. Easy to win there ;-)
16:04:41  <dihedral> hehe
16:04:44  <planetmaker> remember, dihedral ?
16:04:51  <dihedral> aye :-)
16:05:30  <Rubidium> and I actually think 3637 is of some Kurt dev
16:06:29  <Belugas> I think planetmaker is right.  About the heads up and the barking
16:06:48  <planetmaker> :-)
16:06:55  <dihedral> woof
16:07:07  <dihedral> <- barks
16:07:14  <Belugas> feeling concerned? :)
16:07:19  <dihedral> :-D
16:07:22  <planetmaker> :-D
16:07:22  <dihedral> i know i bark
16:07:32  <Goulp> but as i remember, planetmaker is not in the official openttd dev team, or am i wrong ?
16:07:43  <dihedral> he does not neet to be
16:07:44  <planetmaker> I'm not
16:08:18  *** Guest673 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:08:19  <Belugas> the thing to consider is that criticism can happen.  Running away is never constructive.  IF Devs say there is problem there, it JUST might be because they know
16:08:29  <Belugas> no he's not.  But he'
16:08:30  <Belugas> s
16:08:36  <Belugas> a community guy
16:08:41  <planetmaker> But I found out that one can kinda follow the reasoning of the OpenTTD development if one tries to understand things, why they were done this way and not another...
16:09:12  <Goulp> ok men, my first daughter needs me to drive her back home to have her birthday & So...
16:09:26  <planetmaker> :-) Have a nice party for her, guy! Enjoy
16:09:44  <avdg> :) cya
16:09:55  <dihedral> uh - luukland wrote on his wiki page: "So please, do not ask us to release our source code. We do not know, whom you might be working for!"
16:10:01  <Goulp> i'm happy to have talked with you pm, and hope the socket is not closed with devteam
16:10:13  <planetmaker> Goulp, I know it's never
16:10:16  <Belugas> and get a bee... a coke on our behalf!
16:10:22  <planetmaker> Or let's say... I'm convinced it's never
16:10:41  <trebuchet> luukland sounds like a jerk
16:10:46  <Goulp> and remember to Goulp Kiss everybody here !
16:10:54  <planetmaker> :-)
16:11:08  <avdg> he is just the person who will not change his mind in a minute
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16:12:29  <dihedral> let's all say "Luukland servers exist" that should give some recognition ^^
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16:13:48  <avdg> I don't really care
16:13:54  <dihedral> ^^
16:14:21  <avdg> I am just happy that the mosts "noobs" aren't in openttdcoop
16:14:49  <planetmaker> avdg, that's the reason we a) use nightly and b) a password obtained only via IRC ;-)
16:14:54  * Rubidium thinks he's on Goulp's ignore list
16:14:57  <Yexo> Goulp: if you want a dev to say it: I agree with practically everything planetmaker said above
16:15:10  <planetmaker> :-)
16:15:58  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20610 /trunk/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp: -Fix (r20609): X and Y got swapped.
16:16:00  <dihedral> hehe
16:16:15  <planetmaker> how evil ;-)
16:17:40  <Belugas> Rubidium, you are not, at least an hour ago.  he reacted when you mentionned copy paste
16:17:41  <Belugas> i think
16:17:43  <Belugas> not sure
16:18:29  <dihedral> Belugas, i think he was reading logs too
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16:19:02  <Belugas> what is the point of having an ignore list if you are reading the logs to see what everyone is saying???
16:19:40  <dihedral> perhaps there was a large feeling of possibly missing out?
16:30:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20611 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: disable newgrf houses that have a different size then their substitute type
16:31:51  <planetmaker> hm, these house fixes come out of the blue ;-)
16:32:49  <Rubidium> actually they dont; they're the "review the code" upon bug report style of fixes
16:33:20  <Rubidium> although in this case the bug report was quite old (FS#3702), but fixed only half an hour ago
16:34:13  <Yexo> FS#3702 was kind of "don't change newgrf settings ingame", but it was possible to fix it so I left it open
16:34:22  <Yexo> just never got around to actually fixing it before now
16:35:40  <roboboy> gnight
16:36:04  <planetmaker> g'night roboboy
16:36:11  <Rubidium> good night Australia :)
16:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "We do not know, whom you might be working for!" <- paranoid, much?
16:48:45  <avdg> it just misses references
16:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> they have medicine for this.
16:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> medication?
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16:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever.
16:50:00  <avdg> :p
16:51:05  <Rubidium> I like his "Fact"
16:51:27  <avdg> For me its again something typical
16:52:12  <avdg> I call it the word to let other people shut there mouth down
16:52:38  <Rubidium> "44% is older than 26" especially if you cross-reference that with his poll, 17-: x%, 18-25: y%, 26-37:z%, 38-52:a%, 53+:b% (where z+a+b = 44)
16:52:39  <avdg> doesn't work with people like us
16:52:56  <avdg> a poll is no proof
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16:53:42  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so actually he does have a reference for his number...
16:53:46  <Rubidium> point is he claims that there are no people of 26 in the community
16:53:59  <avdg> lol
16:54:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that depends on your way of rounding
16:54:51  <Rubidium> ages above 1 are generally rounded down
16:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> if you declare "someone is older than X" if he has "Xth birthday plus epsilon"
16:55:39  * avdg never fill in such polls :(
16:55:43  <dihedral> and epsilon = 2?
16:56:56  <Belugas> somehow, i think that lukkland should not be taken at first level. I think he is joking andall quite oftenly
16:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> do it like the poll institutes... make up a large chain of numbers "we asked XYZ people [...]" and end that sentence with "thus the poll is representative"
16:57:19  <Belugas> that's the impression i have looking at all his forum's ports, anyway
16:57:25  <avdg> well, the homepage has enough claimes he can't proof
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16:58:46  <avdg> Only server with oil refineries in the middle of the map! <- wtf :p
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16:59:07  * Rubidium wonders whether he can be a dictator, after all several things have gone to trunk without me dictating it
16:59:37  <dihedral> :-p
16:59:58  <Rubidium> goes through the logs to find one
17:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: being a dictator doesn't mean having to make every decision
17:00:20  <Rubidium> r20611 is the first I can find I've had no influence in
17:00:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: just that you can override any decision your "subjects" are doing
17:00:51  <dihedral> i hope you were working yourself through the list backwards :-D
17:01:05  <Rubidium> dihedral: yes, otherwise it would've been r1
17:01:23  <dihedral> or -800<something>
17:03:09  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: even then, I'm definitely not a dictator on the forum
17:03:27  <Rubidium> or regarding the donations / paying of the server
17:04:03  <avdg> your opinions are hard trough
17:04:05  <Eddi|zuHause> idea: landscaping tool in senario editor: a) when 1x1 is selected, allow drag&drop, b) allow setting size of each direction individually [allows rectangles], c) make the sides change exponentially 1,2,4,8,...,{map_x,map_y}
17:05:29  <Rubidium> avdg: even then, they're not fixed if you come with good reasons
17:05:40  <avdg> true
17:06:37  <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> idea: landscaping tool in senario editor: a) when 1x1 is selected, allow drag&drop <- I like that
17:07:14  <planetmaker> ^ +1
17:07:16  <avdg> thats confusing
17:07:27  <frosch123> hmm wasn't that already coded?
17:07:37  <frosch123> or, was it only suggested before :x
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17:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure, it possibly was discussed before
17:07:48  <avdg> player presses 1x1 drags accidently, whoops :)
17:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't checked ;)
17:08:04  <frosch123> maybe it was part of the roujin patches somewhen
17:08:05  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, why not allow drag and drop with anything x 1
17:08:07  <planetmaker> there were at least some patches to similar means. Not sure whether the exact same
17:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> avdg: that's how it behaves ingame
17:08:11  <Rubidium> avdg: and that doesn't currently happen in-game?
17:08:11  <dihedral> incase someone wants to make a wall
17:08:16  <planetmaker> I think so, yes, frosch123
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17:08:23  <avdg> donno
17:08:26  <Terkhen> I remember that suggestion, I still like it
17:08:27  <avdg> didn't test it
17:08:48  <dihedral> i recall a 'draw' something patch for landscaping
17:08:53  <planetmaker> avdg, that hardly ever happens :-)
17:08:53  <Rubidium> did TTD have drag levelling/raising/lowering?
17:08:59  <planetmaker> I don't think
17:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: dunno, walls could be handled with the other two...
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17:09:12  <avdg> donno, I'm maybe not synced :)
17:09:26  <frosch123> no, and i guess even ttdp has not
17:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: "draw" was something different
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17:09:47  <SpComb> OpenTTD has a scenario editor? :o
17:10:01  <Rubidium> so *if* the current behaviour in the SE was due to not having dragging, then maybe we should just drop the whole behaviour and use the in-game method, i.e. always drag
17:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: afair, "draw" only raised the location your mouse currently is. if you move the cursor, it changes that tile, move again, etc.
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17:10:46  <frosch123> Rubidium: i never did a scenario, but scenario editors always have bigger tools
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17:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: like pencil tool in paint
17:11:05  <frosch123> i.e. gimp does not have a drag-resizable pen either
17:11:33  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, that's kinda what i understood
17:11:41  <frosch123> if you really want to draw a landscape, you do not want to drag all the time :)
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17:11:45  <Rubidium> frosch123: but then, in GIMP keeping the mouse pressed colours multiple pixels (if you move)
17:11:57  <Rubidium> in OpenTTD's SE it will draw one "pixel" per click
17:12:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but the square landscaping tool has its advantages also
17:12:04  <Rubidium> i.e. it's no drawing
17:12:05  <dihedral> "fill area with land" :-P
17:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should be kept
17:12:27  <Terkhen> I like removing it completely and only having drag even more
17:12:28  <Yexo> just tested, ttdpatch has no dragdrop for raising/lowering (and no leveling at all)
17:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> my problem with that tool was, it isn't possible to resize very big
17:12:32  <[hta]specx> multitouh support where you contract all fingers making a mountain
17:12:33  <Rubidium> it is at least inconsistent with the SE's level land tool, which *is* only draggable
17:12:46  <Yexo> maybe ttdpatch has it with some options, but ttd definitely doesn't have it
17:13:27  <Yexo> dihedral: I fail to see the advantage of the square landscaping tool over a dragable tool
17:13:37  <[hta]specx> carve out landscape like a clay pottery
17:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> especially for large maps, you might want a large landscaping tool for the basic foundation of the map, then fine tune through the small tools
17:14:08  <planetmaker> OpenTTD wouldn't loose much, if it just used the very same landscapeing tools in SE than ingame
17:14:26  <planetmaker> dragging is fine and scales easily :-)
17:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd possibly also add circular/ellipsis tool
17:14:43  <Gremnon> wouldn't it just be easier to limit the drag behaviour to when the SE's raise/lower is only one a single point, and disable it when moved up to affecting multiple points?
17:14:48  <planetmaker> though... It *might* make sense to rise a big area with one click
17:14:58  <frosch123> i remember that i once tried to play ttd just for the old ages. first i failed to build to track on a slope, and when i rediscovered i had to single click for terraforming i quit :p
17:15:00  <planetmaker> so... hm... maybe not remove those
17:15:24  <planetmaker> lol @ frosch123 :-)
17:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Gremnon: yes, that was the suggestion.
17:15:29  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but only up to 8 or so tiles?
17:15:39  <planetmaker> Rubidium, yes, like 8^2
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17:15:56  <planetmaker> But that's still faster click-click-cklic creating something than draging
17:16:07  <planetmaker> though it depends upon the scale
17:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that's why i also suggested exponential sizes
17:16:17  * planetmaker is quite undecided :-)
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17:16:27  <frosch123> planetmaker: that is why i always enjoy those "i want to play ottd like ttd again"-topics on the forums. once you figure it out, you do not want to any longer :p
17:16:34  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, ah. The size referred to the tool size. That wasn't clear when I read it
17:16:54  <planetmaker> yeah. That's the small changes one doesn't notice when they're present
17:17:07  <planetmaker> But which immediately become a problem, if they're not there (anymore)
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17:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> how about a "brush" tool, that randomly decides whether to raise or keep each spot in the selected area?
17:20:47  <Eddi|zuHause> or "spray"
17:20:57  <Gremnon> something like the landscaping tool in railroad tycoon 2?
17:21:07  * avdg is no mapdesigner, but likes the idea
17:21:17  <dihedral> Yexo, filling space
17:21:17  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just code it :) also code a smoothening-tool
17:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Gremnon: i have no clue how railroad tycoon 2 looked like...
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17:22:07  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I think that has been proposed. And it remains a good idea :-)
17:22:27  <planetmaker> Or a kinda pencil. Which draws with the currently selected tool on the map
17:22:31  <[hta]specx> or terraform up, but then a preset square size value, i.e. 10 would make 10x10 square base making a 10height pyramid
17:22:33  <planetmaker> there was once such patch even
17:22:36  <Terkhen> hmmm... I remember a pencil patch
17:22:37  <Gremnon> IIRC, it was either square or round, could raise, lower, or level (the same as OpenTTD currently has) and also had smooth and rough settings
17:22:53  <planetmaker> probably roujin :-)
17:23:00  <Terkhen> yes
17:23:06  <[hta]specx> so one-click hill or mountain creation
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17:23:19  <planetmaker> hta: pyramids are boring ;-)
17:23:34  <[hta]specx> thats why you click three times to make hill range
17:23:50  <[hta]specx> about 8 tiles apart from each other
17:25:01  <[hta]specx> instead of 10x3=30 time
17:25:05  <[hta]specx> s
17:30:43  * Rubidium wonders how dictatory it would be if I wished that if it gets changed all scenario land level changing tools behave in the same way?
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17:31:44  <Gremnon> well, the level land tool wouldn't need to be changed, IMO, as it's current behaviour would seem to suit it well
17:32:05  <Rubidium> but it's inconsistent. What if I want to level a few 8x8 areas?
17:32:24  <Gremnon> you mean, uniform behavior for raise, lower and level?
17:32:54  <Rubidium> yes
17:32:59  <Gremnon> then I think you'd need to make some kind of option on the SE's landscaping dialog that specifies how that is
17:33:00  <Gremnon> eg
17:33:17  <Gremnon> 'single tile' 'drag' 'square 8x8'
17:33:35  <Gremnon> which would, in theory, allow for new additions, like perhaps a circle or other shaped option
17:33:39  <Rubidium> but it is already there, just without the "drag"
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17:34:10  <Gremnon> yes, it's there, but if you want uniform behaviour, my theory is that the user gets to choose which of thise three behaviours all three tools use
17:34:17  <Wolf01> hello
17:34:23  <Gremnon> and let them switch between them as they want
17:34:38  <Gremnon> in the same way as you can specify different town layouts, if that helps
17:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd be glad to try to code it, but the amount of gui work involved scares me off...
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17:37:55  <Gremnon> would it need that much? borrow the town layout buttons and edit them as a base for picking which behaviour, then it's just a case of that little preview area which shows the dots
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17:38:48  <Gremnon> though, if it's kept to something like single tile, drag, square X by Y, then the first two could use just a single dot, and the last would use the current behaviour for showing the square
17:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Gremnon: GUI code and me are natural enemies
17:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> like cats and water...
17:40:28  <Gremnon> I *might* be able to figure something out myself, but it's been a long time since I looked at any source code, let alone wrote any
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17:42:21  <Wolf01> yum, pizza.. BBL :P
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17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20612 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 79 changes by arnau
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 3 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 9 changes by Christopher
17:45:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
17:45:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 7 changes by IPG
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19:07:18  <Belugas> f***!!!
19:07:20  <Belugas> bastards
19:07:27  <Belugas> ass*****
19:07:33  <peter1138> ??
19:07:36  *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-23-216.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
19:07:43  <planetmaker> ho ho
19:07:48  <Belugas> been working for 2 months on this project
19:07:53  <Belugas> when near completion,
19:08:09  <Belugas> they say that the POS is undercertificaiton as wel as my eft wrapper
19:08:11  <Belugas> NO WAY!!
19:08:18  <Belugas> I cannot work like that
19:08:30  <Belugas> and i did stressed that postion right from day one
19:08:33  <Belugas> but noo.....
19:08:39  <Belugas> all is cool...
19:08:52  <Belugas> up until matters are really buot to be finalized
19:08:52  <planetmaker> <Belugas> they say that the POS is undercertificaiton as wel as my eft wrapper <-- what does that mean? (Sorry my ignorance)
19:09:06  <peter1138> point of sale
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19:09:13  <peter1138> in scope of certification
19:09:15  <Belugas> EFT = electronic Fund transfer
19:09:40  <Belugas> the library i use to shield the POS from the banks
19:09:45  <peter1138> means instead of a small contained part needing certification, loads of it does
19:09:48  <Belugas> and ooops... i'm on the wrong channel
19:09:52  <planetmaker> ah, thx :-)
19:10:05  * peter1138 hugs Belugas
19:10:12  <Belugas> yeah, thanks peter1138.. i'm a bit stressed out
19:10:36  * andythenorth is just glad he doesn't write software for bank transactions :P
19:10:49  * planetmaker gives Belugas also a hug
19:10:52  <Belugas> lucky boy you are
19:10:55  <planetmaker> have a cookie :-)
19:11:03  <Belugas> haaa.... feel a lot better!
19:11:08  <Belugas> two hugs in a day :D
19:11:10  <Belugas> a record!!
19:11:23  <planetmaker> :-(
19:11:37  * peter1138 does write software for bank transactions, but it's not sold
19:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/broker.jpg
19:11:45  <peter1138> different certification process
19:13:06  <Belugas> not sold?  what do you mean?  not in production yet or solely used internally?
19:13:18  <frosch123> hmm, there is a "singapore town names" grf... i thought there was only one town :o
19:13:28  <Rubidium> 15:30 < Eddi|zuHause> did i ever mention that i love people who post links without context
19:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ;)
19:13:53  <Eddi|zuHause> who said that i don't hate myself ;)
19:14:39  <peter1138> all internal
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19:16:46  <Belugas> haa... ok... make sens.  I should have known :)
19:19:25  <frosch123> oh, it is no grf, it is a scenario :s
19:20:05  <frosch123> and a very weird one
19:27:21  * andythenorth has written financial software
19:27:22  <andythenorth> badly
19:27:49  * andythenorth didn't know to use pence (int) instead of £ (float)
19:27:49  <andythenorth> :P
19:27:56  <andythenorth> cue rounding errors :P
19:28:42  * Belugas does not specifically use pence, dollars or else
19:28:52  <Belugas> just... amounts and transaction types
19:29:01  <Belugas> and everythung else
19:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows that you use fixed point arithmetics in money transactions...
19:29:46  <Belugas> integers
19:29:56  <Belugas> 10$ = 1000
19:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the same thing ;)
19:30:10  <Belugas> 10.50$ = 1050
19:30:15  <Belugas> yeah quite :)
19:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> in banking, usually you use 4 decimals
19:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> so 10$ = 100000
19:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> 1¢ = 100
19:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.01¢ = 1
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19:31:35  <Rubidium> only 4? 1 euro = NLG 2.20371 (5 decimals)
19:31:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I was not in the group 'everybody' :P
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19:32:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i should have said "4 to 6"
19:32:27  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: and what do they use in Zimbabwe?
19:32:29  <andythenorth> I was in the group of 'people who have to pay for their software to be rewritten by other people who know how to do it properly"
19:33:11  <Rubidium> frosch123: doesn't matter, your CPU isn't fast enough to increment it
19:33:13  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause, i can confirm you I only use 2 "decimals".  DOn't forget, i'm on the retail side, not actually in the bank itself
19:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean "other people who have a good laugh and throw everything away, then write it from scratch"
19:34:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: they rewrite the software every couple of weeks, because their fixed point range isn't sufficient anymore
19:34:40  <Rubidium> frosch123: even better, there is no Zimbabwe dollar anymore
19:36:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there was laughing
19:36:38  <andythenorth> and some cursing
19:37:08  <avdg> I heared funny things about zimbabwe
19:37:14  <avdg> about big inflations
19:37:29  <Rubidium> By December 2008, inflation was estimated at 6.5 quindecillion novemdecillion percent (65 followed by 107 zeros) <- that's not that big
19:37:52  <avdg> :)
19:37:58  <Rubidium> it's "only" 5 digits
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19:49:51  <avdg> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/02/world/africa/02zimbabwe.html :p
19:50:00  <avdg> look at the graphs
19:50:35  <avdg> sad that the article was from 2006
19:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that page asks me some crap about registering
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20:06:11  <dihedral> some things just seem pointless
20:07:20  *** Steve^ [~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
20:07:42  <Steve^> Hey, the "Autoreplace all trains in the depot" button, is there a trick to using it?
20:07:47  <Steve^> Clicking doesn't seem to be enough
20:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to set up autoreplace from the train list first
20:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the way i use the button: send a train to depot, pause the game, open the train list, set to replace engine A with engine B, press the replace button in the depot, remove the replacement rule for engine A again, unpause
20:10:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that way, i'm sure to only replace that single train, not all trains
20:10:15  <Steve^> oh wow!
20:10:33  <Steve^> this could be useful
20:10:59  *** murr4y [~murray@169.84-49-70.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
20:11:08  <Steve^> I can't renew to the same engine?
20:11:22  <V453000> why would you do that
20:13:19  <Steve^> Because I'm double heading SH40s and they're getting old
20:13:29  <Steve^> and whilst that doesn't matter, I want to replace them
20:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Steve^: there's a separate "autorenew" setting in advanced settings
20:15:24  <Steve^> ah, excellent
20:15:35  <Steve^> whilst I'm here.. is there a keyboard shortcut for removing shortcuts?
20:15:41  <Steve^> ahhh, *signals
20:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> the "r" key works wonders ;)
20:17:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "s","r" or "a","r" are my most used key combinations :)
20:17:41  <Steve^> thanks!
20:17:57  <Steve^> you sure, are my hero Eddi
20:18:02  <Steve^> *sir
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20:36:39  <Belugas> going zhome
20:36:42  <Belugas> good night all
20:36:51  <Belugas> may the night be good for you
20:43:59  *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@209.80-203-100.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
20:44:53  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:44:58  <Bluelight> What is new from 1.0.2 to 1.0.3?
20:45:06  <glx> less bugs
20:45:21  <glx> more translated strings
20:45:35  <Bluelight> Didnt even know there was bugs..
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21:13:07  * andythenorth wishes that lego had windscreen parts to make this: http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/cz/electric/340/340_055_Smr.jpg
21:17:00  *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f750c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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21:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> is this czech?
21:20:15  *** KouDy1 [~koudy@ip-89-176-216-203.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
21:20:32  <andythenorth> yup
21:28:41  *** TruePikachu [~chris@cpe-67-49-42-88.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
21:29:18  * TruePikachu will try his hand at making Crazy Taxi-inspired vehicles for OpenTTD
21:31:58  <TruePikachu> Crazy Taxi-train anyone?
21:32:11  * TruePikachu needs ideas
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21:37:52  * Eddi|zuHause mumbles to himself "*don't feed the troll*"
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21:40:26  <TruePikachu> -_-
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21:47:25  <TruePikachu> For GRFCodec, when compiled from source on *nix, do you know if the executables have dependancies to other files in the build directory?
21:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it didn't use to...
21:49:14  <TruePikachu> Okay, I'll assume that there are no other dependancies for the trunk
21:51:05  <TruePikachu> Lol, I was going to manual install, goven that 'make install' just popped up a one-liner [INSTALL]
21:52:03  * TruePikachu goes to read a GRF-making tutorial
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22:11:10  <Terkhen> good night
22:14:46  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen
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22:17:23  <TruePikachu> Any easy way to import the OpenTTD pallette into GIMP?
22:18:32  <TruePikachu> Err...the NewGRF pallette
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22:19:10  <TruePikachu> wait, nvm
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22:28:48  * TruePikachu thinks that the OpenTTD pallette file located in the source's docs directory should be re-indexed so that it's pallette indecies are those of the game itself
22:29:32  *** Vitus [~chatzilla@138.194.wms.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:32:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean they aren't?
22:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> remember: 1) there's two different palettes used in the game, 2) grfcodec can generate you a valid file
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22:44:24  <TruePikachu> What file for GRFcodec?
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22:45:48  <TruePikachu> I don't think that pallette file cinfirms to the pallet indicies correctly, I'll check
22:46:21  <TruePikachu> Nope, it doesn't confirm to the pallette shown in the file :P
22:46:23  *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know]
22:47:57  <TruePikachu> I just tried converting the pallette, and it failed; it seems I picked up an additional color somewhere
22:48:40  <TruePikachu> The 'floating text' messes with the pallette :( additional color(s)
22:49:33  <TruePikachu> If you want' I can re-do that file, so the indecies in the file will point to the actual color
22:49:39  <TruePikachu> *want,
22:50:46  <TruePikachu> Also, the outermost rows and columns show part of the game in progress; I can clip those to deduce file size
22:51:01  <TruePikachu> *reduce, I'm making tons of typos
22:52:31  <TruePikachu> Also, it looks like some parts of it are mis-behaving; you can see a bit of dither if you zoom into color 231
22:53:20  <TruePikachu> And 123 has it bad
22:55:06  <TruePikachu> Were the Ottd colors based off the WIndows pallette?
22:56:48  * TruePikachu starts rebuilding the file
22:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you make no sense
22:58:38  <Eddi|zuHause> simply take a screenshot, or decode trg*.grf to get a good palette
22:59:20  <planetmaker> Palettes are also readily available for download
22:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> screenshot ingame (ctrl+s)
22:59:52  <planetmaker> @logs
23:02:04  *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:02:17  <TruePikachu> No, I mean, look at the file in the source tree at docs/ottd-colour-pallette.gif
23:03:04  <TruePikachu> That is what I'm redoing right now, using the Windows pallette
23:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably use the dos palette instead
23:08:01  *** APTX [~APTX@chello089077244008.chello.pl] has joined #openttd
23:08:45  <TruePikachu> But the supplied colors confirm to the Windows pallette
23:08:57  *** avdg [~Adium@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:09:01  <TruePikachu> (as in the colors which are being tried to copy, or something)
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23:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> then make the whole file show the dos palette
23:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, all people should use the dos palette
23:13:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's difficult to erase "windows is better than dos" from people's mindset
23:13:16  *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-192-215-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:13:37  <TruePikachu> Which pallette does OpenTTD internally use?
23:13:58  <TruePikachu> Anyway, I've already palletted the Windows colors
23:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the one dictated by your base set, or provided with the -i parameter
23:14:06  <TruePikachu> Oh
23:14:28  <TruePikachu> If you want, I can make a DOS version AND a Windows version
23:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause> that should be fine, too
23:14:53  <TruePikachu> openttd_pallette_dos.gif and openttd_pallette_win.gif
23:15:01  <TruePikachu> ^^ those will be the file names
23:15:48  <TruePikachu> How should I submit the files when they're done? I don't have write access to the SVN, nor would anyone want me to
23:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> bugs.openttd.org
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23:19:39  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: difficult currently still to switch the palette of a grf
23:19:50  <planetmaker> as many have a windows base grf - and then everything defaults to that
23:20:22  <Yexo> TruePikachu: what is wrong with ottd-colour-palette.gif ?
23:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but with action 14, the palette is switched automatically
23:20:28  *** LunarWolf [~LunarWolf@addm159.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
23:20:29  <planetmaker> we can only try to update as many newgrf with the palette information as possible, so that we then in the 1.1 era can actually start to really use the dos palette
23:20:32  <LunarWolf> hi
23:21:19  <TruePikachu> Yexo: Look at the file that I mentioned
23:21:29  <LunarWolf> Can someone explain what's going on with this electricity in: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
23:21:40  <TruePikachu> I am working right now, can't really talk
23:21:45  <Yexo> docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif <- that file? I did look at it, I don't see anything wrong
23:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> LunarWolf: i don't remember electricity actually being implemented
23:22:39  <planetmaker> there's no electricity
23:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> LunarWolf: the idea was that industries that typically need a lot of electricity must be placed near a power plant. but afair that was never actually enforced
23:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> opposite to that: i think in the newest version power plants were removed completely
23:24:45  <TruePikachu> Yexo: Zoom in at 123
23:24:55  <TruePikachu> And look at the color indicies that are saved
23:25:03  <TruePikachu> Floating text messes it all up
23:25:37  <Yexo> that one is wrong indeed
23:25:49  <LunarWolf> I just look and look for some interesting additions to improve
23:26:27  <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: just go ahead with your modifications. when you're done, put the files on bugs.openttd.org and write there what you changed
23:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> as detailed as possible, because not all devs follow a discussion during the night
23:27:13  <planetmaker> lol, discussion ;-)
23:27:35  <LunarWolf> I mean most of the real economies, cities to be more varied (village - mega cities, skyscrapers choir, etc)
23:28:05  <planetmaker> LunarWolf: FIRS allows for 'economies'
23:28:39  <planetmaker> That is a selection of their newgrfs. Their cargo ratings modified
23:28:59  <LunarWolf> improvements also include the station?
23:29:03  <planetmaker> maybe you may want to think about interesting economies and make proposals which of the industries to select?
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23:40:40  <LunarWolf> it's called an additive, which makes you can play well in the years following 1925 (terms of availability of transport)
23:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> if you add a vehicle grf, you can start even earlier
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23:46:40  <LunarWolf> I can not fathom these additives
23:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> start with one or two
23:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> if you get along with those, add more
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