Log for #openttd on 20th September 2010:
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00:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: IMHO, the back of a one way signal should behave exactly like end of line.
00:02:58  <Aali> yes and it works fine if there is no other way to go
00:04:26  <Aali> but with one track in each direction trains tend to choose the wrong way and end up bouncing forever
00:04:28  <glx> you should not have lost trains
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00:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: the train just shouldn't get lost in the first place
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00:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: if the train is lost, that means there is no right way
00:05:06  <Aali> yeah, I'm sure you've never had a train get lost on you
00:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: yes, i did, that's why it throws a message to alert the player to take action
00:06:16  <Aali> sure
00:06:29  <Aali> I just can't see why this behaviour was changed in the first place
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00:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a flyspray task. but i can't be bothered to look it up
00:07:50  <Aali> there are two of them, the original one asking for the change and a new one asking for a revert
00:08:19  <Aali> so, I guess we'll see what happens
00:08:23  <ccfreak2k> A bug and an anti-bug?
00:08:27  <ccfreak2k> Don't get them too close together.
00:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> the one i meant involved a depot at the "wrong" end of the station
00:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> which was based on a ncommon ewbie-error
00:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> common newbie error
00:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> damn keyboard
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00:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: the point is, that "lost trains" are not something where you can do any sane estimate what might be what the user considers "right"
00:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you do, it will break for half of the people
00:11:56  <Aali> I agree, so why was a change made in the first place?
00:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so the only thing you can do is to come up with a situation where the trains are NOT lost, but still behave wrongly
00:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise this isn't worth discussing
00:13:33  <Aali> oh its not worth discussing, I'm just ranting
00:13:51  <Aali> I want the record to show that I oppose this change :)
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00:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the reaons why things were done are in the commit messages and the flyspray tasks
00:24:45  <Aali> hmm, the original bug was solved in a bit of a weird way
00:26:15  <Aali> the fix allows the train in question to reserve a path to a one-way PBS just so it can stop and reverse at a station before reaching the signal
00:26:38  <Aali> it seems to me the fix should have been to make the train aware of the fact that it can do that instead
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04:34:36  <SmatZ> morning
04:35:24  <LaSeandre> good morning to yoooou, SmatZ!
04:35:35  <LaSeandre> although I'm leaving now.
04:37:04  <SmatZ> bye LaSeandre :)
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05:49:23  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:08:21  <V453000> Eddi | zuHause: well that is awesome but from gameplay point of view it does nothing but break the game
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07:18:27  <Wolf01> 'morning
07:21:38  <TheUros>  i have the latest openttd ..  is there a limit how much can city growth ? .. i mean radius limit ?
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09:34:16  <fjb> Moin
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10:35:36  <TheUros>  i have the latest openttd .. is there a limit how much can city growth ? .. i mean radius limit ?
10:35:55  <V453000> why the hell would you need a large city
10:35:55  <V453000> :)
10:36:18  <V453000> but if there is any limit, it is so large that it will suffice you for a looong time :p
10:36:25  <TheUros> ok thanx
10:36:39  <TheUros> why i need a large city ... well . i want just one large city
10:37:22  <V453000> there is no problem in growing a city all over 256x256
10:37:49  <V453000> I believe that will be enough :)
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10:38:42  <TheUros> yep .. more than enought
10:39:53  <TheUros> how long train stations you usually build ?  i allways use 7 tiles long stations
10:39:54  <V453000> oh and I recommend to turn off the automatic building of roads for towns
10:40:10  <V453000> so you can control where the roads go, the cities screw up ;)
10:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of long road tunnels tend to help growing a city over a large area
10:40:37  <V453000> I use mostly 3 tiles, it is probably the most all-over versatile and good choice imo
10:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate grids...
10:40:59  <planetmaker> TheUros: there's an implicit limit in the town growth code
10:41:20  <TheUros> what limit ?
10:41:26  <planetmaker> : city action can mean 'new house' or replace house. So in the limit expansion gets more and more unlikely
10:42:30  <TheUros> just 3 tiles ?? .. maybe for small passengers trains .. but for cargo you need at least 7 tiles long stations ?? or no
10:43:02  <Eddi|zuHause> for short cargo trips i occasionally use 2 tiles
10:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause> especially in feeder systems
10:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause> long distance maybe 8 or 10 tiles
10:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i used 15 tiles once
10:54:14  <V453000> distance doesnt really matter, throughput does :)
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10:59:33  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a tricky balance there
10:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> long trains tend to be slower, and block the junctions longer
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11:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause> so it means the non-blocking junctions need to get more complicated
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11:04:28  <dihedral> morning
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11:08:39  <roboboy> hello
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11:13:57  <andythenorth> one piece flow :P
11:15:06  <andythenorth>
11:38:34  <dihedral> how's your patch coming along
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12:06:41  <dihedral> got to work to find a corupted hard disk in my computer... no mote booty, nono rescue....
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12:07:07  <dihedral> yay for not having a raid 1 setup
12:13:11  <planetmaker> backups rule ;-)
12:13:57  <Noldo> and raid is not backup
12:14:50  <planetmaker> sure enough
12:15:11  <planetmaker> raid won't help you if the machine catches fire ;-)
12:16:00  <Rubidium> backups won't help when they're in a fire safe in the same building that's on fire :)
12:16:31  <Noldo> the most common thing raid doesn't protect against is user error
12:16:34  <planetmaker> won't they?
12:17:02  <heffer> planetmaker: if you delete a file on a raid it's gone
12:17:08  <heffer> it's not if you have a real backup
12:17:25  <heffer> because it's a. on the raid and b. in the backup media
12:18:55  <dihedral> in this case raid would have saved a lot of wasted time
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12:21:52  <planetmaker> heffer, sure; I wanted to reference the fire proof sfe, though ;-)
12:21:54  <planetmaker> *safe
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12:27:52  <planetmaker> I think I even know where you could get one for free. Provided you pick it up
12:28:07  <planetmaker> The size is approx. 4 cubic meter ;-)
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12:28:16  <planetmaker> The weight... dunno... several tons
12:28:51  <planetmaker> but maybe they already disposed of it...
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12:43:37  <__ln__>
12:47:48  <SmatZ> nice :)
12:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't _really_ look like fibonacci...
12:50:19  * avdg hears the word photoshop
12:51:12  <Eddi|zuHause> YES. certainly photoshopped. no way the arrows and the caption were really there.
12:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> they don't cast proper shadows!
12:53:10  <__ln__> avdg: wrong, you hear the *trademark* Photoshop®
12:53:57  <__ln__> besides pigeons would be scared of big arrows hanging over them and would fly away
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12:56:14  <SmatZ> not if they were glued
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13:00:25  <planetmaker> hm... adding epoxy to the places pigeos usually land, eh? ;-)
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13:00:40  <SmatZ> :)
13:05:04  <dihedral> planetmaker, lol
13:05:24  <dihedral> i have quick glue, with an activator for my rc plane models
13:05:41  <planetmaker> though I always wanted to combine a microwave oven and a satellite dish to a remote microwave ;-)
13:05:55  <dihedral> a drop of glue on the back of the fly makes it fly away, spraying the fly while it's flying makes it "land" :-D
13:06:10  <planetmaker> your neighbour is too loud? Just use it on his stereo ;-)
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13:10:22  <Beklugas> hello
13:11:01  <planetmaker> moin
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13:17:31  <Belugas> good to be myself again
13:17:46  <planetmaker> :-)
13:18:25  <dihedral> welcome back Belugas ;-)
13:19:10  <Belugas> was not gone that lng ;)  but thanks anyway
13:27:34  <dihedral> <Belugas> good to be myself again <- was referring to that
13:27:46  <Belugas> i know :)
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13:45:44  <fjb> Moin Belugas
13:47:10  <Belugas> hey fjb
13:51:27  * Belugas thinks about buying a 8gb sd card. current one is too small for a decent set of songs.
13:53:42  <dihedral> Belugas, get one with 20MB/s write speed :-)
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13:53:57  <dihedral> ok, be fair - take one with 12MB/s
13:54:46  <Belugas> in terms of class, what would those be?
13:54:56  <Belugas> i do't need a speedy one
13:55:00  <Rubidium> why bother about writing speed?
13:55:19  <Belugas> even my camera would bnot be able to take advantage of a fast one
13:55:26  <Rubidium> you just start copying your song to it and go to bed. In the morning it'll likely be done
13:55:29  <Belugas> none, Rubidium, absolutely none
13:55:36  <Belugas> indeed :)
13:56:06  <Rubidium> at least, I'd assume it's not as slow as the internet used to be... oh the times where downloading the kernel's source package took 2 hours
13:56:52  <Rubidium> now we're complaining if it isn't down within like a minute
13:57:42  <Belugas> :)
13:58:03  * Belugas remembers browsing with a 2400 modem
13:58:30  <Belugas> downloading one song took the whole night
13:58:45  <Rubidium> ghehe...
13:58:57  <Rubidium> 14k4 was the slowest modem I've ever used
13:59:27  <Rubidium> although... I know I've "worked" with some hardware that used 300 baud (yay ATMs)
13:59:27  <SmatZ> 28.8k here :)
13:59:47  <Rubidium> though the 2 hours was IIRC with a 64k ISDN line
14:00:30  <planetmaker> 33k here :-)
14:00:46  * avdg has sometimes a connection of 28kbps
14:00:54  <avdg> isp limits
14:01:19  <SmatZ> :(
14:01:48  <avdg> still fast enough to play openttd minus loading
14:01:52  <Rubidium> the only thing I like about modems is the first 30 seconds
14:02:20  <SmatZ> avdg: to play online? syncing that several-minutes-long download will probably cause connection lost
14:02:38  <avdg> not anymore actually :p
14:02:53  <avdg> there was a time where my download stopped after 3 sec
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14:05:11  <Belugas> 14k4 was already a good speed :)
14:06:03  <Belugas> to be fair, i'd have to confess I had that 2400 modem for less than a week
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14:06:20  <Belugas> we've upgraded to the state-of-the-art 9600 one
14:06:25  <SmatZ> :)
14:06:26  <Belugas> wow... blazing fast..!
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14:08:53  <dihedral> in average you'll hit a 3MB/s writing speed
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14:09:11  <dihedral> and there are cameras that can make use of faster writing speeds
14:09:21  <dihedral> e.g. Nikon 7D
14:10:15  <dihedral> take pictures at 8fps and you can do something like 16 in one batch, then you'll have to wait for the camera to finish writing the data to the card ... 3MB/s will take quite some time ^^
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14:32:19  <Belugas> in raw, i can only do  1.5fps
14:32:33  <Belugas> in jpg, i've got a big 3fps
14:32:36  <Belugas> so...
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14:33:01  <Belugas> until i've get my hands on Canon 7d, i'll keep low profile low cost sd cards :)
14:33:17  <Belugas> and 7d deals with compact flash
14:33:19  <Belugas> so..
14:34:02  <Belugas> and that's such a fantastic machine, that 7d... i'm jsut drooling every tiume i look at the specs or even have one on my hands att he nearest camera shop
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14:38:12  <Belugas> dihedral: what are you talking about? I can't see any nikon 7d
14:38:23  <Belugas> have you mixed nikon with canon???
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14:38:29  <Belugas> HOW DARE YOU???
14:39:20  <dihedral> ops - sorry - got 2 friends confused :-D
14:39:44  <planetmaker> :-D
14:39:47  <dihedral> nikon D300s
14:40:40  <Belugas> haaaa... better :)
14:41:11  <planetmaker> seriously considering 7D, Belugas ? :-)
14:44:35  <Belugas> you bet
14:44:41  <Belugas> all the advantages it has?
14:44:45  <Belugas> of course i do
14:45:18  <Belugas> i mean... i doubt i could seriously use it to its full potential
14:45:25  <Belugas> but... hey.. waht a piece!
14:45:35  <Belugas> wirelss flash built in support
14:45:50  <Belugas> environment sealed
14:45:57  <Belugas> 2 digits 4
14:46:04  <planetmaker> :-)
14:46:08  <Belugas> 8fps, in raw and else
14:46:21  <Belugas> etc etc
14:46:23  <Belugas> man...
14:46:28  <Belugas> i don't care about the video
14:46:30  <Belugas> but the rest...
14:46:37  <Belugas> i downladed the manual
14:46:41  <Belugas> 297 pages
14:46:50  <Belugas> but so good to read :)
14:49:53  <Belugas> would you not, planetmaker?
14:50:27  <Belugas> but to be honest, i know my son will use my 1000D at one point. So i must be ready to have a new one by then ;)
14:50:51  <planetmaker> Belugas, surely I would :-)
14:55:38  <dihedral> Belugas, a friend of mine bought it (iirc)
14:56:18  <Belugas> what were his impressions?
14:56:27  <Belugas> apart the weight, of course ;)
15:00:11  <andythenorth> Olympus Pen EP2
15:00:14  <andythenorth> total win
15:00:20  <andythenorth> v. expensive, but very awesome
15:00:58  <andythenorth>
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15:02:19  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you haven't seen the price tag on the Canon EOS 7D then ;-)
15:02:38  <andythenorth> no
15:03:16  <andythenorth> I used to have 3 Olympus 35mm SLRs and a full range of prime lenses from 24mm-500mm for the price of one Pen 2 :P
15:04:06  <planetmaker>
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15:10:34  <Belugas> andythenorth, if i recall, you cannot use your regular olympus lens on that unit, it's 4/3,micro that is.
15:10:43  <Belugas> plus, i have to admit, i NEED the view finder
15:11:00  <Belugas> working wht the LCD is not really comfy, especially outside
15:11:11  <Belugas> but it all depends on what your doing, i agree
15:11:29  <Belugas> and i do agree it looks like a nice machine
15:11:50  <andythenorth> Belugas: the EP2 comes with an awesome electronic viewfinder
15:12:14  <andythenorth> it's a bit weird, converting photons to electrons, then back again when a mirror would do just as well, but it works
15:12:32  <andythenorth> I can use OM lenses, but only with a really expensive adapter
15:12:38  <andythenorth> the default lens is awesome
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15:13:49  <Belugas> yeah, everything comes with a price :S
15:14:40  <Belugas> some Canon have a Live View mode, which is the same as the feature you describe.  I have sucg a monde on my 1000D.  Honestly, I only use it when i';m composing stuff with the tripod
15:14:47  <Belugas> and inside only
15:15:11  <Belugas> maybe it's the stuff they used to bult it, but i don't really like the reflections and all
15:15:33  <andythenorth> the one I mean is an eyepiece
15:16:04  <andythenorth>
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15:17:20  <Belugas> hooo... COOL :)
15:17:28  <Belugas> now that is awesome :D
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15:19:54  <Belugas> but... why that camera?  why not that one?
15:20:02  <Belugas> just curious
15:20:04  <Belugas> size?
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15:34:40  <andythenorth> Belugas: size
15:34:50  <andythenorth> and nostalgia
15:35:14  <andythenorth> here's my 'other' camera:
15:35:24  <andythenorth> it's about the same size and similar form factor
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15:41:27  <Belugas> quite good reasons :)
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16:57:47  <Belugas> mmh
16:57:48  <Belugas> a shame
16:57:54  <Belugas> ho.. Hello frosch123 :)
16:58:16  <Belugas> yeah, a shame, another fork which did not last long
16:58:26  <Belugas> the Inverted one.
16:58:46  <Belugas> funny to see the guy is now active in the NoAI section
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16:59:08  <frosch123> who? dih?
16:59:16  <Belugas> naa.
16:59:19  <Belugas> wait
16:59:21  <frosch123> hello belugas btw :)
16:59:36  <Belugas>
16:59:41  <Belugas> tath one
16:59:47  <Belugas> that
16:59:48  <Belugas> :S
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17:00:26  <Amis> hello o/
17:00:33  <planetmaker> hello
17:00:50  <frosch123> what? avertising simutrans? :p
17:01:22  <Amis> I would like to ask about game mechanics, more specific: industry production changes. I have a feeling wiki does not tell me everything.
17:01:52  <Amis> It seems that the number of same industries near eachother affect production change in a negative way. Is that right?
17:02:16  <frosch123> for default industries? certainly not :)
17:02:36  <planetmaker> I'm not aware of newgrf industries with that behaviour either
17:02:46  <Belugas> frosch123: nope.  The guy wanted to write a fork of Ottd, and his list of features has been quite.. laughable
17:03:14  <Belugas> Amis, i cna confirm.  unless you have solid ground to your saying, tough
17:03:31  <Amis> They why each time fund a few, for example fruit plantations and I have excellent service (85-95%) they all drop in production
17:03:46  <Lakie> A lot of 'patches' for OpenTTD are quite ambitious Belugas...
17:04:00  <Belugas> true that, Lakie :)
17:04:21  <Belugas> speaking of ambitions, i'm going outside shooting the photo of the century now...
17:04:24  <Belugas> yeah right...
17:04:51  <Lakie> Well, make it a good photo anyways? :)
17:05:39  <Lakie> (Probably better pharsed as hope you get a nice photo anyway).
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17:09:38  <Nite> Hi
17:10:01  <Chris_Booth> hi all
17:10:29  <Nite> any way to convert many or all semaphores to "normal" siganls fast ??
17:10:55  <Chris_Booth> delete old signals and then ctrl drang new ones
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17:11:05  <Chris_Booth> or just keep semaphore
17:11:43  <Nite> well i luckily never use semaphores ...
17:12:02  <Nite> but another one tapped into that trap ;)
17:12:09  <frosch123> there is a signal conversion button in the signal gui
17:12:20  <frosch123> that way you do not need to select the position and orientation when converting
17:12:22  <frosch123> only the type
17:12:56  <frosch123> for the next game it is useful to configure semaphores to only appear before 1492 :p
17:12:57  <Nite> woudl be neat if you could squaredrag with the signalconvert tool
17:13:02  <Chris_Booth> frosch123: that only doesn 1 singla at a time though?
17:13:13  <frosch123> really?
17:13:25  <Nite> afaik
17:13:46  <Nite> (i have semaphores off - for me its all about readability)
17:13:53  <frosch123> hmm indeed :s
17:14:28  <Nite> guess hter are 100 of thousands of signals often in games
17:15:34  <Nite> kind of afk ...
17:17:22  <Nite> ok i see squaredrag is not that easy because you dont only replace semaphore to normal, but also the type
17:17:30  <Nite> exact type
17:17:57  <Chris_Booth> yes you would need to have a type check
17:18:17  <Nite> but isnt there som ctrl + alt + caps + click kind of method ?
17:18:40  <Nite> ;)
17:18:46  <Chris_Booth> I dont know never used it myself. I always start with Lights not semaphores
17:19:30  <Nite> yeh its not so serious problem
17:19:51  <Chris_Booth> TBH when are you going to use it?
17:19:56  <Nite> a super readable also from behind signals newgrf woudl be nice though
17:20:02  <Chris_Booth> semaphores are just as good as lights
17:20:22  <Nite> i did not use it but another player - who is somewhat into eyecandy
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17:20:53  <Chris_Booth> semaphores are more readable IMO than lights but lights look nicer
17:21:10  <Nite> well imo not
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17:47:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20830 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
17:47:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:47:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by Wowanxm
17:47:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: marathi - 186 changes by jcravi
17:47:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 5 changes by Terkhen
17:47:01  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: urdu - 21 changes by thastig
17:48:02  <planetmaker> <frosch123> for the next game it is useful to configure semaphores to only appear before 1492 :p <-- hehehe :-) I guess I have such introduction date
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17:48:35  <frosch123> i always mention 1492 in this context :p
17:48:40  <planetmaker> :-)
17:50:15  <Chris_Booth> 1492? that seems early to start openttd
17:50:40  <planetmaker> that's fine, if you start on a water map with sailing boats :-)
17:50:47  <planetmaker> OpenTTD - hanse theme :-)
17:50:51  <planetmaker> hm...
17:50:54  <Chris_Booth> and horses!
17:50:58  <planetmaker> that indeed *might* be interesting
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17:51:19  <Chris_Booth> sailing boats horses and mules
17:51:32  <planetmaker> midieval transport...
17:51:39  <Chris_Booth> hell yeah
17:51:42  <planetmaker> camels replace horses in desert...
17:51:52  <planetmaker> you have oxes, cows, horses....
17:51:58  <planetmaker> some wagons to span them...
17:52:03  <planetmaker> that *might* be very interesting
17:52:16  <Chris_Booth> dirt tracks
17:52:24  <frosch123> litters instead of busses?
17:52:29  <Chris_Booth> then canal boats
17:52:36  <planetmaker> all that :-)
17:52:57  <planetmaker>,
17:52:59  <planetmaker>
17:53:01  <Ammler> yeah, do it!
17:55:22  <Belugas> Lakie, not a single one taken. I guess I'm not in the mood or something
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17:57:27  <Lakie> Thats a shame, Belugas. :(
17:57:48  <Terkhen> <--- do you think this is enough water for a map, or will someone want even more?
17:58:17  <planetmaker> that's about ok :-)
17:58:25  <fjb> That old ship grf has the first ship in 1701.
17:58:27  <Belugas> well.. given that downtown is under heavy construction, i would say it's pretty normal...
17:58:47  <X-2> Nice screenshot Terkhen :P
17:58:50  <Belugas> nice Terkhen :D
18:00:14  <andythenorth> evening
18:00:16  <dihedral> is that too much water or too little land :-P
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18:00:57  <Terkhen> for me it is already too much water, I'm just wondering if someone will complain because he can't get more than 80% water
18:02:08  <dihedral> lol
18:02:16  <dihedral> people can complain about everything
18:02:32  <Terkhen> :P
18:03:02  <planetmaker> haha @ Terkhen :-)
18:03:13  <planetmaker> Terkhen, it'd actually make sense to play such map :-)
18:03:18  <planetmaker> I'd definitely give it a try
18:03:34  <Terkhen> hm, let me make a screenshot with 90%
18:03:54  <Lakie> Would that not be bordering unplayable?
18:03:55  <frosch123> make it more rough and with less variation to get more islands?
18:04:06  <__ln__> I would complain for anything below 130% of water.
18:04:30  <Chris_Booth> __ln__: can the water be in water towers?
18:04:44  <__ln__> Chris_Booth: sure
18:04:50  <Terkhen> Lakie: I think so, that's why I'm currently limiting the patch at the amount shown at the screenshot
18:05:11  <Chris_Booth> cool then i can float water towers in the sea
18:05:27  <Terkhen> but I guess the player should be able to do whatever he wants, even if the results are unplayable
18:05:31  <Chris_Booth> and still have 35$ land
18:05:36  <Chris_Booth> 35%
18:06:24  <planetmaker> Terkhen, "unplayable" is anyway a relative term. Everyone might define it differently
18:07:56  <__ln__> if you had 100% water with two oil platforms, couldn't you establish a profitable passenger route between them?
18:08:29  <planetmaker> :-O
18:08:56  <planetmaker> __ln__, you won't have such map. A map needs at least one town
18:09:02  <__ln__> damn
18:09:07  <planetmaker> yeah
18:09:19  <planetmaker> still... I wonder how small it can be ;-)
18:09:30  <__ln__> ok, are underwater towns on the roadmap already?
18:09:34  <planetmaker> 1 complete tile and its shore?
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18:10:29  <avdg> towns on water :)
18:10:58  <Terkhen> <-- actually, with rough 90% looks nice
18:11:02  <planetmaker> I thought so, too... but you'd need to modify houses
18:11:17  <planetmaker> indeed, Terkhen :-)
18:12:19  <fjb> Nice, but isn't ttd a railway game? *hides*
18:13:06  <Terkhen> you can build tiny networks at each one of the tiny islands
18:13:12  <__ln__> fjb: It's a railway game which only lacks the ability to carry trains on ferries.
18:13:44  <avdg> trains are just the best way to create profit
18:13:51  <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: you need 1 town but that town doesnt need people
18:14:10  <Chris_Booth> 0 pop town counts
18:14:23  <Chris_Booth> then 2 oil platforms = playable
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18:17:16  <Belugas> mmmh... town on piles project comes back to mind
18:17:47  <fjb> And exploding oil platform desaster.
18:17:53  <avdg> does it had stations on the water?
18:18:19  <avdg> building a dock requires land
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18:22:57  <Belugas> if you are building a dock, yes it will reauire land.  if you are building a seaport, no it does not
18:23:09  <Belugas> imagination, people, imagination...
18:23:34  <andythenorth> only after 1960 or so :P
18:23:47  <andythenorth> can you distant join a train station to an oil rig?
18:24:29  <V453000> OpenTTD 2: Sea Life?
18:25:17  <andythenorth>
18:25:39  <V453000> ...
18:25:54  <V453000> hmm screw this
18:26:01  <V453000> im gonna buy myself a lego instead of openttd :D
18:27:50  <olleman> any recommended newgrf airports?
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18:29:05  <frosch123> i guess there is only one grf (or it there one at all?)
18:29:21  <andythenorth> there is a test grf somewhere?
18:29:23  <andythenorth> I have a copy
18:29:32  <andythenorth> it's limited
18:29:38  <andythenorth> dunno if there are any 'real' ones
18:29:44  <olleman> interesting
18:29:57  <olleman> I suppose the code isn't mature enough?
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18:34:36  <Belugas> i suppose more that it's not available ingame, actually. Unless you have compiled your own one :)
18:34:39  <Belugas> i think...
18:34:42  <Belugas> not sure now...
18:34:43  <olleman> that makes sense
18:34:52  <Belugas> trunk moves so fast these days ...
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18:46:50  <Nite> cya
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18:48:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20831 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Show selected number of towns in the map generation window when using a custom amount.
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18:56:58  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20832 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Allow to select a custom percentage of water in the map generation window (based on patch by CommanderZ).
18:58:06  <planetmaker> woah :-)
18:58:11  * planetmaker pulls
18:58:50  <andythenorth> :o
18:59:04  <Terkhen> don't forget to translate :)
18:59:55  <planetmaker> already done
18:59:58  <planetmaker> :-)
19:00:57  *** jpx_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:02:53  <planetmaker> Terkhen: /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: In member function ‘virtual void GenerateLandscapeWindow::OnDropdownSelect(int, int)’:
19:02:55  <planetmaker> /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp:762: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions
19:03:58  <Terkhen> hm, too much copypaste
19:07:29  <Terkhen> planetmaker: can you check if it is gone when applying this diff?
19:07:30  <fjb> Already 1717 and I'm still not rich...
19:09:41  <Terkhen> wait, I caused another in tgp :P
19:11:02  <Rubidium> fjb: it's 2010 and I'm not rich either...
19:11:07  <Terkhen> planetmaker: <-- diff updated
19:11:22  <fjb> Oh, already that late?
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19:13:06  <planetmaker> all fine, Terkhen :-)
19:13:42  <Terkhen> okay, thank you :)
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19:15:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20833 /trunk/src/ (genworld.h tgp.cpp): -Fix (r20832): Remove a warning.
19:19:26  <planetmaker> nice thing, Terkhen :-) Finally it's easy to create atoll-like scenarios :-)
19:19:49  <planetmaker> some map type which makes for nice challenges :-)
19:20:10  <Aali> yay, I've long wanted this feature too
19:20:53  <glx> planetmaker: not hard if you just raise land :)
19:21:20  <planetmaker> glx: it is. Because you have to acutally rise the land. Now I just random generate it.
19:21:27  <planetmaker> and adjust a few places
19:21:54  <glx> I mean raise land to join atolls ;)
19:22:45  <Terkhen> :)
19:23:00  <planetmaker> :-)
19:23:01  <Terkhen> small things like this always manage to keep me from playing
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19:23:09  <planetmaker> hehe
19:23:25  <Terkhen> whenever I start a game, I think of something mising or that I'd like to try
19:23:37  <Terkhen> let's try again
19:24:06  <frosch123> :p
19:24:19  <planetmaker> :-P
19:24:35  <andythenorth> I haven't played a game in ages
19:24:38  <planetmaker> Terkhen: I guess that's one of the reasons I mostly play online...
19:24:42  <andythenorth> I keep thinking of new things I need to implement :P
19:24:58  <andythenorth> I have no idea if current FIRS is any good :|
19:25:04  <planetmaker> I can play a little there, others might carry one... and it's fine when I get distracted ;-)
19:25:05  <Terkhen> then again, sometimes I also find bugs
19:25:12  <Aali> FIRS is great
19:25:23  <andythenorth> and I know I'm going to keep breaking savegames so I don't invest in a new game :(
19:25:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth: we just play a FIRS 0.3 on our stable
19:25:29  <Aali> alot less insane than ECS but still alot more interesting than default industries
19:25:29  <planetmaker> It's quite fun :-)
19:25:34  <V453000> firs is quite good
19:25:46  <andythenorth> also, there's so much left to do, I don't have time to actually play :P
19:25:47  <Terkhen> I've played online only a few times with friends, mostly I play alone
19:25:50  <V453000> but imo the latest additions are going a bit  too far :)
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19:26:07  <V453000> we will see what comes out of it ;)
19:26:16  <andythenorth> V453000: give feedback in the dev thread
19:26:18  <andythenorth> or here
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19:28:06  <V453000> one of the things I really liked was the way how it works quite precisely ... from the united industry starting production, through the multiple cargoes delivered -> multiple times more output, to the way how the engineering supplies seem to work
19:28:27  <V453000> currently the supplies seem to work quite oddly :) but I havent tested that much
19:28:31  <planetmaker> yep, that's great
19:29:02  <V453000> I also liked the amount of industries before, but that is just me and taking time before I adjust ;) I havent played the latest version yet
19:29:31  <V453000> but what I wanted to say ...
19:29:54  <V453000> woulnt it be more "interesting" to make engineering supplies consumed by primaries over time?
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19:30:10  <V453000> now it doesnt really matter how much you make, only how often you deliver
19:30:31  <andythenorth> I've thought about it
19:30:46  <andythenorth> unless players want to micromanage routes every month, the gameplay effect will be identical to now
19:30:56  <V453000> it is in my opinion better because you can control which industry grows better
19:31:10  <andythenorth> this is how ECS does it?
19:31:16  <V453000> well players usually do timetable it monthly
19:31:26  <V453000> I think yes, ECS probably does it that way
19:31:32  <V453000> but well .. I hate ECS tbh :p
19:32:03  <Aali> I would like to see a system where the same amount of supplies generate the same amount of primary goods, no matter where and when you deliver it
19:32:07  <planetmaker> actually... I consider it a bit of a challange to really deliver by the month
19:32:11  <Aali> but maybe thats just a fantasy of mine
19:32:33  <andythenorth> FIRS will stay with monthly for the forseeable future
19:32:41  <V453000> pm: yea it could maybe be a setting through parameters?
19:32:43  <planetmaker> otherwise it means to introduce stockpiles... something I don't like ;-)
19:32:48  <frosch123> somewhen we discussing something like: all supplies are stockpiled. the more there are stockpiles the more is produced. and every month 10% of the stockpile is consumed
19:32:57  <planetmaker> V453000: you can set anything by parameter. But who programmes it
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19:33:04  <V453000> pm: I know :)
19:33:28  <andythenorth> "It's not realistic" :P
19:33:37  <V453000> fuck realistic, this is a game ;)
19:33:39  <planetmaker> frosch123: the limit is 65k or so for a stockpile w/o limit?
19:33:47  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it might be a good idea, though
19:33:54  <andythenorth> yeah, I don't hate it
19:33:55  <frosch123> something like that, yes
19:33:59  <andythenorth> I just don't find it interesting
19:34:09  <andythenorth> it just makes primary industry a stockpiling secondary industry
19:34:20  <andythenorth> means a coal mine is just like a PBI factory
19:34:24  <V453000> well if an industry growing more and more would consume more and more supplies it could be still quite appealing I think
19:34:28  <andythenorth> output = input
19:34:42  <andythenorth> output != input for primary industry
19:34:48  <andythenorth> our whole civilisation is built on that
19:34:57  <V453000> because at one point you wouldnt be able to deliver enough supplies or the industry would be maxed :)
19:35:05  <planetmaker> :-)
19:35:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth: or something like quadratic efficiency of supplies: 1: 1% increase chance, 2: 2:, 4: 3%:, 8: 4%, 16: 5%, 32: 6% etc pp
19:36:01  <andythenorth> sounds like ECS :)
19:36:11  <planetmaker> what?
19:36:19  <planetmaker> the increase behaviour?
19:36:22  <andythenorth> yes
19:36:33  <planetmaker> I don't want to change the mechanism
19:36:43  <planetmaker> Just the efficiency
19:36:45  <andythenorth> just the probability?
19:36:48  <planetmaker> yes
19:36:58  <planetmaker> probability = f(#supplies)
19:37:06  <andythenorth> would it need to be explained to players in the industry window?
19:37:16  <planetmaker> possibly
19:37:35  <planetmaker> but a generic explanation suffices:
19:37:47  <planetmaker> industries need supplies to increase their production.
19:37:56  <andythenorth> "More supplies = greater chance of increase"
19:38:01  <planetmaker> More supplies will help more
19:38:23  <planetmaker> But not linearlily or so
19:38:32  <andythenorth> it would make for interesting strategy
19:38:46  <andythenorth> if the 'primary production never decreases' parameter is enabled....
19:39:08  <andythenorth> it would then make sense to dump *all* supplies on the map into one primary to max production
19:39:15  <andythenorth> then when it is maxed, move on to the next
19:39:19  <planetmaker> :-) yep
19:39:34  <andythenorth> hmm
19:39:36  <planetmaker> though you'd be faster to supply all linearily probably
19:39:52  <planetmaker> as the overall gain per unit time would be bigger
19:39:54  <andythenorth> depends on how f(supplies) is calculated
19:39:57  <Aali> could the "interval" between supply checks be increased to be longer than one month in a simple fashion?
19:40:07  <andythenorth> yes and no
19:40:11  <andythenorth> what are you thinking
19:40:12  <andythenorth> ?
19:40:25  <Aali> so you only need to deliver supplies, say every 3 months to get maximum growth
19:40:52  <andythenorth> it would be possible to code
19:41:01  <andythenorth> I don't see any benefit from it though :o
19:41:06  <andythenorth> what does it improve?
19:41:22  <planetmaker> the delicacy of the tuning required
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19:41:38  <planetmaker> currently you need to adjust deliveries quite carefully
19:42:02  <andythenorth> so deliver at least 1t every three months instead?
19:42:03  <Aali> I think it would be a nice parameter to have, to "relax" the supply system a bit
19:42:07  <planetmaker> with 3x the time you could probably set a number of vehicles to distribute supplies in the fashion of ABACADAE
19:42:33  <andythenorth> it's not a hard thing to implement.  with a parameter it might be harder
19:42:52  <Aali> is FIRS open source?
19:42:57  <andythenorth> yes
19:43:04  <andythenorth> a great deal of the current supplies handling mimicks the town cargo handling
19:43:07  <Aali> good stuff
19:43:28  <frosch123> you can count the days in one register, reset to 0 on delivery, and compare that to the parameter
19:44:04  <andythenorth> similar code exists for handling other delivery at some industries
19:44:15  <andythenorth> it would be easy to hook in
19:44:28  <andythenorth> it would also be possible to make the number of months a parameter
19:44:43  <andythenorth> however, it means some more work with strings + translations
19:45:01  <andythenorth> doing anything with the text stack is usually harder than just...writing more strings
19:45:56  <Aali> figures
19:49:36  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^^ write a ticket for 0.2 ? :P
19:49:42  <andythenorth> sorry FIRS 2.0 :m
19:49:47  <planetmaker> what? 0.2?!
19:49:58  <planetmaker> :-)
19:50:52  <Aali> oh and while I'm here, nutracks has a rather "interesting" problem
19:51:07  * andythenorth ponders
19:51:45  <Aali> selling more expensive track types doesn't give you a fraction of the money back you would get by first downgrading to the cheapest rail type, then selling
19:51:54  <V453000> :D
19:52:05  <V453000> intereting
19:52:19  * fjb need fish food.
19:52:36  <andythenorth> making a FIRS production increase more likely in a month would have the same production effect as increasing the number of months
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19:52:52  <andythenorth> but it might have a different effect on number of vehicles players route
19:53:33  <andythenorth> it would also be (slightly) easier to code support for a parameter
19:53:44  <andythenorth> except I don't really understand random in hex
19:53:47  <andythenorth> :o
19:54:06  <Aali> then you would be able to get more growth by supplying every month
19:54:25  <andythenorth> yes
19:54:30  <Aali> which doesn't really "relax" the system at all :)
19:54:40  <andythenorth> over time it would have the same effect
19:54:53  <Aali> it just encourages players even more to deliver every month
19:55:05  <andythenorth> 12 * 10% increase or 6 * 20% should have same effect (statistically)
19:55:19  <andythenorth> i.e. deliver every two months
19:55:39  <andythenorth> but it may not seem that way to players
19:55:52  <andythenorth> I often forget how random works when repeated enough times
19:55:59  <andythenorth> so other people might too :o
19:56:09  <Aali> I think you're missing the point :)
19:56:19  <andythenorth> which one :)
19:58:12  <Aali> with that solution, if player A delivers every month and player B only every 3 months, player A will win big
19:59:13  <Aali> I wanted an option that doesn't reward player A's obsessive compolsive disorder :)
19:59:23  <Aali> *compulsive
19:59:29  <andythenorth> player B could pick up cargo from player A's industry :P
20:00:06  <andythenorth> so in the '3 month' version, there is only one chance every 3 months for a boost?
20:00:10  <Aali> gold star for thinking outside the box :P
20:00:15  <Aali> yes, exactly
20:00:20  <andythenorth> ok
20:00:33  <andythenorth> would the increases need to be 3x larger?
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20:01:15  <Aali> I'll leave that decision up to you :)
20:01:22  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-87-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:01:45  <andythenorth> no no, I've designed and coded the way I want it to work :P
20:01:54  <andythenorth> I'm not solving all those problems again
20:02:29  <Aali> hehe
20:02:31  <Aali> well I'm out
20:02:56  <Aali> I hope that I will some day be able to contribute to one of your projects :P
20:05:44  <andythenorth> I would consider changes, but only where all the conceptual stuff is worked out clearly :)
20:05:44  <andythenorth> otherwise I have n other things to do ;)
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20:11:26  <Ammler> Aali: :'-(
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20:12:15  * fjb still doesn't understand how inflation is working.
20:12:44  * andythenorth turns it off
20:12:44  <andythenorth> unexpected consequences on long game
20:15:10  <V453000> exactly
20:15:10  <V453000> I thought it just multiplies everything but it obviously doesnt :O
20:15:10  <fjb> Unexpected consequences on a short game. Everything more than doubled its costs in less than 20 years.
20:15:10  <SmatZ> inflation on cargo payment rates is different than inflation on things you buy
20:15:10  <fjb> An inflation on running costs?
20:15:10  <SmatZ> that too
20:15:14  <SmatZ> all costs :p
20:15:16  <V453000> he
20:15:32  <V453000> well that just works oddly :) and by some time you arent able to actually make profit with trains
20:15:56  <andythenorth> setting vehicle running costs in a savegame with inflation can also cause mistakes :P
20:15:57  <andythenorth> for me at least
20:15:57  <V453000> I once played with URKS, I used the AL-10 engines and I was barely making any money after few hundreds of years
20:16:01  <V453000> with inflation
20:16:12  <andythenorth> we should implement this in OTTD :P
20:16:13  <andythenorth>
20:16:24  <andythenorth> I have implemented it in Lego many times recently :D
20:16:40  <planetmaker> hm.. .break-downsß
20:16:44  <planetmaker> ?
20:16:58  <andythenorth> stringlining on tight curves
20:17:05  <andythenorth> another incentive to not use 90'
20:17:48  <andythenorth> :P
20:17:58  <V453000> :D
20:18:29  <planetmaker> andythenorth: ... if that means to break down in tight curves: newgrf-possible
20:18:29  <frosch123> night
20:18:32  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:18:33  <planetmaker> night frosch123
20:18:36  <andythenorth> good night
20:18:38  <planetmaker> ha!
20:18:38  <planetmaker> :-)
20:18:41  <andythenorth> missed him
20:18:48  <planetmaker> it's a speed test
20:18:54  <planetmaker> :-P
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20:54:50  <Terkhen> good night
20:54:57  <SmatZ> good night, Terkhen
20:56:26  <Belugas> nigth Terkhen, sir of waters
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21:07:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:11:10  <Belugas> my turn
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21:11:13  <Belugas> GOOD NIGHT!
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21:48:17  * fjb thinks that using a high inflation was not the best idea.
21:49:19  <avdg> putting it off sounds like a better idea
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21:58:41  <__ln__> I just found out that the Netherlands has more provinces than Canada!
22:02:10  <davis> 12?
22:03:39  <__ln__> Yes.
22:03:47  <davis> germany has even more ;p
22:04:02  <__ln__> They are not provinces.
22:04:09  <davis> well federal states
22:05:12  <__ln__> Entirely different.
22:05:49  <davis> "A province is a territorial unit, almost always an administrative division, within a country or state."
22:07:26  <Eddi|zuHause> prussia had provinces
22:08:20  <davis> i'm probably wrong , but i couldn't name the difference between the dutch provinces and the federal states of germany
22:08:58  <Prof_Frink> Easy. They're in different countries.
22:09:14  <davis> thanks prof obvious
22:09:15  <davis> ;p
22:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say level of competences
22:09:24  <__ln__> The other begins with an 'f' and the other with a 'p'.
22:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they actually begin with a 'b' :p
22:10:00  <davis> smartasses in the house :D
22:10:18  <__ln__> And when the Netherlands decides to invade Canada, they'll have an 1:1 exchange ratio for provinces.
22:10:29  <davis> comforting to know.
22:10:53  <davis> then again , why would anyone want to invade canada :/
22:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say a province has less power over its own policies than a federal state
22:11:24  <davis> thanks Eddi :)
22:11:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's a purely subjective view
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