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Log for #openttd on 30th September 2010:
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07:29:08  <dihedral> morning
07:30:07  <dihedral> Ammler: how far are you with your server?
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07:59:16  * dihedral misses Karen :-)
08:05:47  <Terkhen> good morning
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10:54:41  <Ammler> [09:30] <dihedral> Ammler: how far are you with your server? <-- do you have another proposal? :-)
10:58:16  <Ammler> I still prefer XenServer, but I don't get ride of this Netzwork issue.
10:58:35  <Ammler> network*
11:03:56  <dihedral> did you follow the documents on their wiki page acurately?
11:07:43  <Rubidium> wikis are outdated by definition...
11:08:59  <dihedral> esp, if it documents for a version released a few months ago ^^
11:09:39  <dihedral> Ammler, i was merely wondering how much time you were going to spend setting up the server and paying 50 eur / month
11:09:42  <Rubidium> http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Configuring_patches/Stations&curid=860&diff=48003&oldid=47898 <- yay for updating *that* (was changed yesterday)
11:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause> why is it called "patch"?
11:12:07  <Rubidium> because it documents the pre 0.7 behaviour
11:12:14  <dihedral> because the wiki pages did not get renamed at the same time 'patch' got renamed to 'setting'
11:12:52  <Rubidium> the 0.7+ behaviour is in the "Advanced Settings" pages
11:13:08  <Ammler> just revert it back :-
11:13:10  <Ammler> 9
11:13:24  <peter1138> revert and lock
11:13:32  <Rubidium> reverting that change is equally useless
11:14:02  <Ammler> it would at least tell Luigi, that his work was useless
11:14:19  <Rubidium> it's not like it's definitely wrong or something, just a bit pointless given it's talking about stuff almost two years old
11:14:24  <peter1138> ah
11:14:33  <Rubidium> on the other hand... he might be using Lenny
11:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> remove the page alltogether
11:14:51  <peter1138> redirect it to the new one
11:15:36  <Rubidium> effect is better spent on removing the russian "translations" such as http://wiki.openttd.org/%D0%A3%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%91%D1%82%D1%8B/Ru
11:16:08  <peter1138> heh
11:16:10  <Rubidium> copying the English page is quite useless, just translate the page when you're at it
11:16:28  <dihedral> hehehe
11:16:49  <dihedral> i'll use wget for the german translation :-D
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11:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> please, push it through babelfish/google translate/etc. :p
11:18:07  <Rubidium> http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=en&tl=de&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openttd.org%2F&act=url <- yeah, that seems way more complete
11:18:20  <Ammler> the whole translating is crap, but people don't agree :-)
11:18:58  <planetmaker> Ammler: there's no real alternative present, is there? :-)
11:19:03  * planetmaker also waves 'hello'
11:19:14  <Ammler> localized wikis
11:19:31  <planetmaker> translating a manual makes somewhat sense on a page-by-page basis
11:19:41  <planetmaker> and that's what this wiki is basically
11:19:43  <Ammler> I tried to tell that the german guy, but he prefers to translate too :-)
11:19:54  <planetmaker> 'that' german guy? ;-)
11:20:07  <Ammler> Timmamex or so
11:20:13  <planetmaker> ah, him
11:20:16  <Rubidium> IMO a proper (comprehensive) docbook manual should be written in English and that should be translated and distributed
11:20:23  <planetmaker> jo
11:20:30  <__ln__> why not dutch
11:20:30  <planetmaker> Problem is keeping it up to date
11:20:31  <Rubidium> then you can at least track progress and bundle it with OpenTTD itself
11:20:43  <planetmaker> Rubidium: wt4 :-)
11:20:49  <Rubidium> the wiki just has a gazillion things that are utterly useless to be translated
11:21:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: let webtranslator handle the documentation as well?
11:21:12  <planetmaker> Having the tutorial translated is most helpful.
11:21:14  <Ammler> it is easier to keep a German doc up2date than to translate English doc to German, imo
11:21:25  <planetmaker> And some other help pages on settings, newgrfs and alike
11:21:43  <Ammler> advantage is that someone who don't understand English well, could contribute
11:21:46  <planetmaker> Ammler: there's no real difference... is there?
11:21:58  <planetmaker> A translation doesn't mean word-by-word
11:22:08  <planetmaker> It means to transport the issues, the content
11:22:18  <Ammler> that is how the translations on the wiki are done so far...
11:22:23  <planetmaker> that's the difference between google translate and a translation
11:22:34  <planetmaker> And with this understanding of translation it makes sense
11:23:07  <planetmaker> It then also makes sense with that kind of understanding to translate the things chapter-wise - like now done on the wiki
11:23:30  <Rubidium> still, providing a structure in the English doc that all docs should follow seems like a good strategy; then you know what parts are and aren't available even though you can fill in the details differently
11:23:34  <planetmaker> arguably, many 'translators' are afraid to deviate too much from the original
11:23:38  <Rubidium> it also allows tracking changes someone
11:23:42  <planetmaker> I concur
11:23:48  <Rubidium> s/someone/somewhat/
11:23:49  <planetmaker> my argument actually ;-)
11:23:57  <Ammler> it also forces the localization to use same stucture, which might not fit every language/region.
11:24:17  <Rubidium> e.g. if in the English document a section or paragraph gets amended it probably should in the translations as well, or it should at least be checked
11:24:18  <planetmaker> Ammler: the logical structure of the manual need not differe between languages. It's a manual.
11:24:20  <planetmaker> Not prosa
11:24:50  <planetmaker> yep
11:24:52  <Ammler> then the translation should be done by WT and not with wiki
11:25:09  <planetmaker> would make sense, yes
11:25:25  <planetmaker> though the easy access as on the wiki is a nice thing and might be important
11:25:34  <Ammler> I have so far not seen one wiki with good translations
11:25:36  <Rubidium> WT3 has somewhat easy access
11:25:53  <Ammler> most wikis abandon such trials quite fast
11:25:56  <planetmaker> well... and vice versa, Rubidium ?
11:26:29  <Rubidium> although the main problem is that there's no "suggestions" in WT3, and... there is no English version of the manual yet
11:26:31  <Ammler> We will see in a year or so :-)
11:26:33  <planetmaker> ideal: translation via WT3 on a paragraph? sub-section? basis and seamless integration in the wiki
11:26:49  <planetmaker> Rubidium: the tutorial?
11:27:10  <dihedral> "Wenn Sie Spiels sind neu auf dem unsere "Erste Schritte" werden Artikel zeigen Ihnen" <- hehe
11:27:21  <planetmaker> Which - when once defined - could then be amended by newgrf config, adv. settings and ki config
11:27:25  <planetmaker> s/ki/ai/
11:27:31  <Rubidium> planetmaker: that'll be only a very small, initial, part
11:27:41  <planetmaker> yes. But it'd be a start
11:27:49  <Rubidium> http://wiki.openttd.org/Caracter%C3%ADsticas_solicitadas/Es <- just a good example of what isn't very useful to translate (in my opinion)
11:28:02  <planetmaker> actually one start would already be to put up the readme on wt3 - by sections
11:28:31  <planetmaker> of course
11:28:33  <Ammler> hehe, what language does the openttd logo represent?
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11:31:58  <Rubidium> Spanish?
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11:35:34  <Terkhen> he's been traslating a lot of pages every day since june/july; it's no surprise that he's translating useless ones too
11:36:44  <Rubidium> ah well, it's nice that the Spanish now have a native wiki page explaining how to compile OpenTTD < 0.5.0 on Mac OS X
11:37:51  <Rubidium> which... cough cough... won't work on the newer Mac OS X versions anyhow due to the lack of 32 bits blitter
11:37:59  <__ln__> is that more useless in Spanish than it is in English?
11:38:47  <Terkhen> I don't a page like that can become more useless
11:38:51  <Terkhen> I dont think*
11:39:23  <__ln__> if it is completely useless even in English, then why isn't it deleted from the wiki...
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11:40:35  <Ammler> __ln__: it is still valid for openttd < 0.5
11:41:21  <Ammler> it is just stupid to invest time for such pages now
11:42:07  <Ammler> The wiki page could be useful, if you like make  a "retro game" :-)
11:42:26  <Rubidium> Ammler: not for Mac OS X, unless you use "retro" hardware as well
11:43:10  <Ammler> better to add a "notice" block on top which tells taht, instead deleting...
11:43:25  <Rubidium> even though the information might still be useful for a very small share of the users, I doubt it's the thing that you should translate that as one of the first things
11:44:47  <Ammler> it is hard to control (unpaid) contributions :-)
11:45:17  <Rubidium> yup, I don't even want to try to
11:45:29  <Rubidium> I just get occasionally rid of spam and empty pages
11:45:53  <dihedral> is there some type of 'forge.openttd.org' ?
11:46:27  <Rubidium> dev.openttdcoop.org?
11:47:03  <dihedral> i am asking for openttd not openttdcoop
11:47:23  <Rubidium> ever looked at what is *at* dev.openttdcoop.org?
11:48:08  <davis> openttdcoop secretly rules openttd
11:48:15  <dihedral> Rubidium, yep
11:48:28  <Rubidium> although maybe your idea of forge might be different from mine; I'm thinking of sourceforge here
11:48:49  <dihedral> i am too, but i was referring to a certain domain on purpose
11:49:36  <planetmaker> Rubidium: the 8bpp blitter doesn't works only on some OSX... not all. But still
11:50:25  <planetmaker> dihedral: what's your idea to put on "forge.openttd.org"?
11:50:57  <dihedral> i was specifically asking for "hosted under openttd.org"
11:51:07  <Rubidium> planetmaker: okay, then what about the lack of a quartz backend?
11:51:34  <planetmaker> hm, quartz... yes, that might not work under 64 bit :-)
11:51:38  <planetmaker> Forgot about that...
11:51:58  <planetmaker> dihedral: that doesn't answer my question
11:52:44  <dihedral> i am pointing out that the 'what' is not relevant ;-)
11:52:52  <dihedral> merely chasing a domain name
11:53:08  <planetmaker> just for the sake of it? Not sensible...
11:53:21  <planetmaker> or you could just chase xxx.openttd.org as well. or mil.openttd.org.
11:53:29  <planetmaker> Both 99.99999999% won't happen
11:53:31  <dihedral> gosh! must i reason every question i ask?
11:53:44  <planetmaker> no. But if you want to get sensible answers
11:54:10  <dihedral> wow - where on earth must i be here? #tycoon?
11:54:20  <planetmaker> ? *plonk*?
11:54:23  <Rubidium> planetmaker: and there's the issue with getCString as well
11:54:35  <Ammler> dihedral: I would guess, it is mainly lack of time from openttd.org sysop ;-)
11:54:44  <planetmaker> ^
11:54:48  <dihedral> thank you
11:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: so you want forge.openttd.org redirect to dev.openttdcoop.org?
11:55:32  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that was also discussed and rejected
11:56:42  <planetmaker> Mainly for the reason that it runs not within the openttd.org domain / services itself
11:56:51  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the redirect or actually hosting it?
11:56:59  <dihedral> either? :-P
11:57:02  <planetmaker> Re-direct as I understood you
11:57:04  * Rubidium can't really remember such a discussion
11:57:17  <Rubidium> but then there has been a lot of other stuff on my mind lately
11:57:38  <Ammler> well, initially we made it because we needed a place for stuff not supported from openttd.org
11:57:51  <planetmaker> IIRC your argument was, that *.openttd.org would need to reside under the control of openttd.org itself
11:58:03  <planetmaker> It was probably half a year ago we had that discussion
11:58:19  <dihedral> which does kind of make sense
11:58:54  <planetmaker> to have a place where people can work on openttd-related stuff w/o commit access to the openttd svn
11:59:25  <planetmaker> Rubidium: if you changed your mind about such re-direct... *I* wouldn't mind
11:59:36  <dihedral> how about a separate domain?
11:59:40  <dihedral> more neutral
11:59:47  <planetmaker> what 'neutral'?
11:59:50  <Ammler> openttdpatch.org ?
11:59:53  <planetmaker> Is coop not neutral enough?
12:00:00  <dihedral> patch, forge, etc.
12:00:03  <__ln__> openttd.mil ?
12:00:05  <Ammler> cooperation for openttd :-)
12:00:11  <dihedral> coop is totally not neutral
12:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the sense of this discussion...
12:00:14  <planetmaker> cooperatively developing openttd-stuff?
12:00:15  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I can't even remember a reason why I would've rejected the redirect; after all there's forum.openttd.org as well
12:00:29  <planetmaker> true that, Rubidium :-)
12:00:39  <planetmaker> dihedral: how so?
12:00:46  <planetmaker> Because of personal animosities?
12:00:57  <dihedral> because openttdcoop is a community
12:01:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and openttd is not a community?
12:01:29  <dihedral> and other communities will start joining this channel and request being recognized somehow officially :-P
12:01:55  <dihedral> hence, something neutral
12:01:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i _really_ don't see the sense of this discussion
12:02:02  <Ammler> we have splitted that from start by making a seperate channel
12:02:03  <planetmaker> Then maybe the re-direct similar to forums might seem quite fine
12:02:16  <dihedral> it would :-)
12:02:45  <Ammler> there is no devzone talk in #openttdcoop
12:03:42  <dihedral> and where is the devzone channel?
12:03:49  <Ammler> #openttdcoop.devzone
12:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> creator of "Pushing Daisies" and "Dead Like Me" revives "The Munsters"
12:03:52  <dihedral> :-P
12:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause> ""Modern Family" meets "True Blood""
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12:05:02  <dihedral> planetmaker, neutral could also mean something tt wide :-)
12:05:05  <dihedral> just like the forums
12:05:12  <Rubidium> planetmaker: can't find a discussion about redirecting to the devzone
12:05:58  <Ammler> Rubidium: maybe look at talks about noai, dunno if it was public...
12:06:29  <Rubidium> I'm looking at my own logs of the last 16 or so months
12:06:55  <Ammler> but maybe we only mentioned to use the domain, not a simple redirect...
12:07:00  <Ammler> wasn't really main topic
12:07:08  <Rubidium> planetmaker is the only one that uses a - in redirect though
12:07:31  <Ammler> Rubidium: it was more like 1 month
12:07:46  <Ammler> as we shortly talked about merge noai.openttd.org and devzone
12:08:02  <dihedral> perhaps he mentioned cname :-P
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12:09:19  <Rubidium> merging the repositories from noai.openttd.org into dev.openttdcoop.org is something quite different IMO
12:09:32  <Ammler> not just the repos
12:10:20  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: don't forget Wonderfalls :)
12:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i never watched that
12:11:57  <Rubidium> stupid twats in the US that like crap like ATWT and "So you can <activity>" over those beauties from Brian
12:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Bryan?
12:13:32  <Rubidium> also fine...
12:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he should start working in canada, and getting funds from britain and germany, instead of relying on US money ;)
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12:20:31  <Wolf01> hello
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12:32:44  <dihedral> ...
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12:39:07  <dihedral> waldtroll... goblin.... hmmm - sounds promissing :-P
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12:50:43  <waldtroll> dihedral: what?
12:54:41  <dihedral> just kidding ;-)
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12:55:46  <waldtroll> nah, internets is serious business
12:55:53  <waldtroll> :-D
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13:13:13  <Belugas> hello
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16:01:05  <Yexo> Rubidium / TrueBrain: noai.openttd.org is down
16:01:29  <Yexo> no error, but loading the page never stops (and no content is returned)
16:04:00  <TrueBrain> bitch slap!
16:05:30  <TrueBrain> mongrel was completely stuck
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16:05:42  <TrueBrain> worst software evah! :D
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16:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> put "0 4 * * 1 /usr/bin/killall mongrel" into crontab? ;)
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16:34:10  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: we've done something similar for lighty when that was leaking like hell, but that didn't quite help
16:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (i really hope my computer arrives tomorrow, not on monday)
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16:39:00  <Ammler> you have quite a silly setup for your redmine :-)
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16:40:42  <Rubidium> silly == default I reckon
16:42:04  <Ammler> sounds more like developing testing env
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16:42:28  <Ammler> you use lighty and nginx else, why not for redmine?
16:44:48  <Rubidium> no idea, I don't really dare to enter that vserver
16:47:09  <Terkhen> I had forgotten about that spanish translation topic
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17:06:27  <welshdragon> aah, i love mass exoduses of people
17:06:43  <welshdragon> my 'capital' is shrinking in size
17:07:56  <planetmaker> where do you see an exodus here?
17:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> over here, those are called "netsplit"
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17:10:59  <peter1138> he's talking about his game...
17:11:44  <planetmaker> people here play games?
17:12:32  <Belugas> #Games people play in the middle of the night
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17:12:52  <Belugas> Alan Parson's Project
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17:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> please, don't tell us more ;)
17:13:23  <Belugas> #That's the way - han han han han - I like it!
17:13:34  <Belugas> old disco hit
17:13:37  <Lakie> Rubidium: are the ttdpatch nightlies compiled with guard?
17:13:53  <Rubidium> how do you mean "with guard"?
17:14:04  <Lakie> (eg. make all GUARD=1)
17:14:12  <Rubidium> quite likely not
17:14:42  <Lakie> Hmm... I wonder why it crashes for wallyweb then, since for me only compiling with GUARD will result in the ud2
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17:15:10  <Lakie> Though, I do compile with DEBUG=1, so that might avoid it too.
17:15:40  <Rubidium> Lakie: http://pastebin.com/cqXT7wjS <- that's all
17:16:08  <Rubidium> *or* openwatcom's setvars must set GUARD
17:16:33  <Lakie> I'm unsure, but thanks for the answer.
17:16:45  <Lakie> Looks like a memory overwrite somewhere.
17:17:27  <Rubidium> but if openwatcom set it, it's only used for the DOS TTDP nightlies
17:17:55  <Lakie> Aye, I'm not really sure whats happening, I suspect a bad pointer index or something silly
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17:45:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20858 /trunk/src/lang/arabic_egypt.txt:
17:45:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 57 changes by kasakg
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17:52:37  <Lakie> Ah, object heights is overwiting memory.
17:54:49  <Lakie> And now I understand why
17:55:07  <Lakie> uvar<b/w> was being used instead of uvard
17:55:48  <Rubidium> but height's a byte, isn't it?
17:56:20  <Lakie> Aye, but the NOBJECTS/4 adjusts it to number of dwords
17:56:34  <Lakie> NOBJECTS/(bytes in a dword)
17:56:55  <Lakie> I presume because allocating dwords is faster than words
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17:57:39  <Lakie> As such it was actually only allocated NOBJECTS/4 bytes for it all, which ended up breaking it
17:57:54  <Lakie> Rather than NOBJECTS byes.
17:58:08  * Lakie wonders how this went unnoticed for so long
17:58:23  <Rubidium> a certain limit not being reached?
17:59:07  <Lakie> Thats quite probable.
17:59:17  <Lakie> You'd need 100 loaded objects to hit that limit
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18:04:53  <Lakie> With the objects having 'nofoundation' bit set, do you allow them on slopes and such?
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18:06:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if that means "don't draw default foundation", then why shouldn't it be allowed?
18:06:49  <Lakie> Well, my code doesn't adjust them but does adjust the origin tile.
18:07:05  <Lakie> Thus is the origin tile is a slope, it denies the build
18:07:22  <Lakie> (if no cb157 given for expected slope tiles)
18:08:05  <Lakie> I was wondering if I should allow it adjust any tile regardless allowing the normal build system
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18:10:08  <Lakie> And just assume the grf will composate as needed. ;)
18:11:32  <Rubidium> OpenTTD just assumes the normal flatness rules apply
18:11:52  <Lakie> Ok, makes my life easier. :)
18:11:55  <Rubidium> i.e. it'd be a flat platform if foundations would be drawn
18:12:22  <Rubidium> (if the land slope cb is not enabled ofcourse)
18:12:29  <Lakie> of course
18:12:47  <Lakie> mb was using a hybrid with wacked my original implemenation due to a slight oversight
18:12:59  <Lakie> (ie. some tiles using cb157 and others not)
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18:58:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20859 /trunk/src/os/macosx/macos.mm: -Fix [FS#4143]: Remove an outdated comment and just reference the readme. (planetmaker)
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21:48:07  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:05:22  <Terkhen> good night
22:06:58  *** enr1x [~kiike@230.227.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: leaving]
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22:37:44  *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
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23:02:03  * SmatZ hates autoconf-generated configures
23:02:13  <SmatZ> they take so long to configure!
23:06:15  *** Chrill [Chrill@ip68-8-120-178.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #openttd
23:13:05  <Eddi|zuHause> http://notalwaysright.com/deceptive-desserts/1675
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