Log for #openttd on 23rd October 2010:
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00:00:17  <Mortomes> [twisti]: If you build a bridge across the rails and some road tiles connecting to the bridge, they will build houses there
00:00:27  <fjb> It will use your streets.
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00:01:57  <[twisti]> Mortomes: what if i just build a normal crossing ? will the town still expand past my rails ?
00:04:13  <[twisti]> also, im a bit confused about transport payouts
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00:04:22  <[twisti]> it seems like the longer it takes, the more it pays
00:04:49  <[twisti]> so wouldnt i be better off having 10 trains driving in huge circles instead of one train going back and forth a short distance ?
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00:21:04  <[twisti]> how do i remove crashed trains ?
00:21:07  <[twisti]> help please :(
00:21:52  <[twisti]> i tried everything
00:28:20  <fjb> The town will still expand.
00:28:39  <fjb> Crashed trains get automatically removed after some time.
00:29:17  <[twisti]> oh ok thanks
00:29:24  <[twisti]> i paused and tried to google lol
00:29:54  <[twisti]> i also have a problem with signs
00:30:05  <[twisti]> i have a sign before a 3 line station
00:30:14  <[twisti]> but it turns red if even one of the lines is busy
00:30:21  <fjb> Longer distance gets paid better. But longer delivery times gives less money. You have to find the optimal distance depending on your vehicle and your freight.
00:30:27  <[twisti]> is there a way aroundthat ?
00:30:55  <[twisti]> i could provide a screenshot, im still a signs noob
00:31:07  <fjb> Use path signals. They are easy to use. And read the OpenTTD wiki.
00:31:28  <[twisti]> i read it, especially the signs section, but its very confusing to a newbie like me
00:32:06  <fjb> Path signal rule: Only put a signal there where a waiting train does not block anything important.
00:32:42  <fjb> The older kind of signals is really confusing.
00:33:28  <[twisti]> ah, bleh, i guess i cant use those, i cant place any signals in the convoluted station area
00:33:32  <[twisti]> ill show, i 1sec
00:35:07  <[twisti]>
00:35:20  <[twisti]> the train next to the mouse cursor blocks
00:35:30  <[twisti]> when the train leaving at the top is in the station
00:35:45  <[twisti]> after reading the path signal wiki part, i dont think i can do anything about that, right ?
00:35:59  <[twisti]> theres no way to place more signals after the one that blocks
00:36:16  <[twisti]> because every square has the crossover rails
00:36:58  <fjb> You are not using path signals. You are the more complicated old kind.
00:37:10  <[twisti]> i know
00:37:20  <[twisti]> maybe i understood path signals wrong
00:37:28  <[twisti]> i thought you place them after old school signals
00:37:37  <fjb> Change the signals to path signals and it will start to work.
00:37:49  <fjb> No
00:38:08  <fjb> Just don't use the old kind of signals.
00:38:20  <[twisti]> heh ok
00:38:38  <[twisti]> path signals only replace normal signals, not pre-signals, correct ?
00:39:06  <fjb> Correct. You don't need pre-signals and that kind of complicated stuff.
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00:40:09  <[twisti]> well not in this scenario
00:40:12  <[twisti]> i use them elsewhere
00:40:48  <[twisti]> hey, found a bug
00:41:42  <[twisti]> when you try to place path signals over old signals, it just changes their orientation
00:41:49  <[twisti]> but it stays old signals
00:41:49  <fjb> You may use them, but learn how to use them first. :)
00:42:46  <fjb> You have to enable the "change signal button" in the signal dialog. It is the right most in the upper row.
00:42:49  <[twisti]> replaced all my normal signals with path signals, now all my signals are red and all my trains are stuck ;)
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00:43:11  <[twisti]> oh, my bad for the false bugreport
00:43:29  <fjb> Path signals are always red and become green only when a train passes them.
00:43:58  <[twisti]> so what do i do now ? all my trains are stuck, even clicking ignore signal wont make them move
00:45:07  <fjb> What did you do?
00:45:33  <[twisti]> replaced the old block signals with path signals
00:45:45  <[twisti]> i thought thats what i was supposed to do
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00:49:36  <fjb> Hm, make a screenshot again.
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00:50:15  <[twisti]> i removed them all, i dont actually need two trains, ill try it again tomorrow - after reading the wiki about them without being so drunk ;)
00:50:35  <[twisti]> i probably misunderstood how they work
00:51:29  <fjb> That sounds like a good idea.
00:52:23  <[twisti]> thanks for trying though
00:55:56  <[twisti]> is there any good place to post or submit ideas for future development ?
00:59:11  <[twisti]> i was thinking it would be neat if cities preferred to place new development near busy stations instead of just sort of randomly
01:07:29  <fjb> There is a forum.
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01:14:29  <Belugas> [twisti], although it seems like a good idea, it's not a thing that will be done anytime soon.  It has been tried, and it just does not work
01:14:43  <Belugas> and it's far from random, believe me  :)
01:15:43  <Belugas> and no, it's not an original idea. sorry to disappoint you
01:16:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there was something about house var 64 during construction callback, or so
01:16:49  <[twisti]> i can live with all of those
01:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not implemented in openttd either
01:17:10  <[twisti]> it was just an idea that sounded neat in my head
01:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> might be wrong about the number
01:19:34  <[twisti]> huh, i have a ghost station
01:19:41  <[twisti]> its gone, but its name still hovers there
01:19:43  <[twisti]> its grey even
01:20:31  <[twisti]> some of the interface stuff is still weird and unintuitive to me
01:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the station sign stays for about a month after removing the station
01:25:19  <[twisti]> im just going to wait half a year before asking things from now on
01:25:20  <Eddi|zuHause> in case you want to build it elsewhere, the vehicles don't lose the order in the meantime
01:25:20  <[twisti]> ;)
01:29:47  <[twisti]> my stupid city is barely growing
01:29:54  <[twisti]> and everything around it is ironically
01:30:28  <[twisti]> it has 5 busy stations and plenty of space
01:36:43  <[twisti]> is town growth really that simple ? 5 busy stations and thats the only factor ?
01:37:39  <[twisti]> it seems things like rating and diversity of goods should play some sort of role
01:41:36  <[twisti]> i think im going to give up
01:42:07  <[twisti]> this town with 5 busy, happy stations went from 350 to 500, then i spent like 400k to fund new buildings, 600, back to 450 or so
01:42:19  <[twisti]> while the neighbor town with a single station went from 1200 to 1900
01:43:25  <[twisti]> and here i was thinking i was building the next metropolis
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01:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there is another factor to town growth. some towns have "(City)" attached to their name in the town window, those grow faster
01:49:07  <[twisti]> neither of them does oddly enough
01:50:33  <[twisti]> ill try again tomorrow, maybe i constricted it too much
01:50:33  <Eddi|zuHause> funding new buildings might drop the population for a short time, because buildings that are under construction don't count
01:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and make sure you don't ever remove the road tile under the town name
01:50:54  <[twisti]> i fast forwarded it two decades, it just wouldnt grow
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06:29:49  <andythenorth_> morning
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06:48:55  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:25:08  <planetmaker> good morning
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07:55:46  <leowyn> Hello! I've compiled an 1.0.4 dedicated server, and it complains about missing graphics files. I've already tried -D and -v dedicated, neither help. Is this a known problem?
07:56:18  <Terkhen> leowyn: dedicated servers need access to the graphics files too
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07:56:33  * andythenorth_ cracks knuckles and refactors some HEQS :o
07:56:39  <KouDy> morning
07:56:50  <leowyn> Terkhen, oh. That kind of explains the situation :) thanks.
07:57:01  <Terkhen> you are welcome :)
07:57:05  <Terkhen> hi KouDy
08:03:42  <planetmaker> leowyn: the graphics files are not only graphics - that's why
08:03:55  <planetmaker> they also contain height maps needed for game generation
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08:04:24  <planetmaker> (which are also graphics files - but not in the sense that they're displayed)
08:05:20  <leowyn> planetmaker, I suspected something similar, but I thought it was the vehicle data it needed.
08:05:36  <planetmaker> those are hard-coded in the source code ;-)
08:07:25  <planetmaker> and if you care: in src/table/engine.h
08:07:46  <leowyn> Speaking about the code, if you happen to know the sources intimately, I could use some pointers. I was looking for the part which handles city growth. Do you know where is it handled?
08:08:07  <planetmaker> town_*
08:08:34  <planetmaker> I'd try town_cmd.cpp first
08:09:07  <planetmaker> just mind that you must not modify the source, if you try to attract people with unmodified clients :-)
08:09:22  <planetmaker> you'd have frustrated players which desync
08:09:43  <Terkhen> IIRC it is called UpdateTownGrowth or something similar... searching for "grow" in that file will allow you to find it
08:09:52  <planetmaker> ^
08:10:04  <leowyn> yes, I know that. I don't even want to modify, I'm just curious how I can encourage city growth most efficiently.
08:10:17  <planetmaker> 5 stations with good servcie
08:10:20  <planetmaker> that's all ;-)
08:10:39  <planetmaker> you might need to provide the required cargo(s) in arctic or tropic climates
08:11:02  <leowyn> e.g. 5 bus stations with buses waiting for full load?
08:11:19  <planetmaker> like that, yes
08:12:02  <planetmaker> though sometimes - esp. for low cargo generation - full load is not the best choice, if best rating is the aim
08:12:13  <leowyn> nice :) thanks. Somewhere I've read that 1 station is enough. They also said that the cargo requirements are ignored. Maybe they talked about an ancient version.
08:12:25  <planetmaker> as the time since last a vehicle visited a station counts towards rating, too
08:12:57  <planetmaker> leowyn: that didn't change really. Just most people don't know the mechanics, so more than half the info found on that is wrong ;-)
08:13:27  <leowyn> yes, that's why I wanted to have a look at the source.
08:13:49  <planetmaker> it's always the ultimate reference, yes :-)
08:14:59  <planetmaker> I'm still hoping that *some* people will consider it fun again to run servers of nightly versions
08:15:15  <planetmaker> (and play on them, of course)
08:16:20  <leowyn> How is version compatibility handled in these cases? Do the players need to run exactly the same nightly build as the server?
08:16:28  <planetmaker> yes, they do
08:16:56  <planetmaker> openttd always is only compatible to the exact same version
08:17:00  <leowyn> Unfortunately that's too much to ask of my users :( they are not exactly technically-minded people.
08:17:19  <planetmaker> it's as much as downloading it, unzipping and done
08:17:32  <planetmaker> so install is not more difficult
08:17:59  <planetmaker> well, there's no installer...
08:18:12  <planetmaker> but in principle OpenTTD does not need one
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08:18:27  <planetmaker> but I understand that, though.
08:18:47  <leowyn> It wasn't easy to get them move to the current stable.
08:19:31  <planetmaker> hehe
08:19:42  <planetmaker> using the latest stable makes always sense
08:19:49  <planetmaker> at least
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08:20:58  <planetmaker> but I found that the players on my servers usually are quite happy to update when I update its version
08:21:15  <planetmaker> but of course it needs some prodding ;-)
08:22:24  <leowyn> planetmaker, thanks for all your help!
08:22:31  <planetmaker> leowyn: do you play with newgrf? (just curious)
08:23:14  <leowyn> um, you mean the open graphics pack that you can download from the website?
08:23:20  <planetmaker> they often might be a good incentive for updating ;-)
08:23:43  <planetmaker> not base graphics. Extensions. Which you for example could download via the online content from ingame
08:24:07  <planetmaker> but I guess your question answered my question ;-)
08:24:19  <leowyn> no, I use only the base
08:24:54  <planetmaker> also toyland? :-)
08:25:07  <leowyn> no, I don't like toyland, makes me dizzy :)
08:25:22  <planetmaker> look at it with the openGFX base graphics
08:25:31  <planetmaker> it's said to be much nicer then
08:25:47  <planetmaker> but I should stop my ad campaign :-P
08:26:25  <leowyn> I think I have. Was a lot nicer, as the ground is not checkered. But to have to memorize the economy is a bit much for me :)
08:26:51  <planetmaker> hehe. A reason to play nightlies ;-)
08:27:06  <planetmaker> There you can visualize the input and output and where cargos go
08:27:20  <leowyn> Sounds nice!
08:27:20  <planetmaker> in nice cargo flow graphs
08:27:33  <leowyn> I think I'll give it a try.
08:27:49  <planetmaker> :-)
08:28:10  <leowyn> You know what I'd love to see in openttd? Cables.
08:28:32  <Alberth> as unmovable? great :)
08:28:44  <leowyn> Right now, you dump the coal at the power station, where it disappears.
08:28:48  <planetmaker> cables as in power lines?
08:29:04  <leowyn> No, not as unmovable. As a player feature, as a 5th mode of transport.
08:29:18  <planetmaker> well, I cannot give you power lines, but the power masts. Let me look for a link
08:30:11  <leowyn> Yes, I was thinking more about masts myself, a la Protoss Pylons -- they would "wirelessly" transport power to everything in their coverage range.
08:30:15  <Alberth> the power station is really a 'bad' industry to service
08:30:32  <leowyn> Alberth, you mean that it produces no output?
08:30:40  <Terkhen> it's a black hole industry
08:30:44  <leowyn> so you get profit only once
08:31:03  <Terkhen> dump stuff in it -> profit
08:31:07  <planetmaker> <-- there are the masts for power lines in that newgrf
08:31:23  <Alberth> there are other industry GRFs that are much more interesting imho
08:31:24  <planetmaker> they're build as NewObject. Which will only work in nightly versions though
08:31:56  <leowyn> Power lines would solve that -- but of course they wouldn't be as exciting as trains.
08:32:32  <planetmaker> they'd be as a cargo transport concept quite boring: build once and get money without anything
08:32:38  <planetmaker> even more instant money than planes
08:33:03  <dihedral> good morning
08:33:07  <leowyn> planetmaker, I know that... but maybe there would be a way to make them more interesting
08:33:35  <planetmaker> moin dihedral
08:34:02  <Alberth> hello
08:34:21  <leowyn> I thought that maybe if the profit would be kept very low, people would add it for possible bonuses. An idea: a city or industry connected to the power grid could grow faster.
08:34:31  <planetmaker> leowyn: well, but... it has been thought of a lot and if failed on always one of two things: a) not really helpful in terms of improving fun and gaming experience or b) way too much work for too little gain
08:34:58  <planetmaker> mostly on the 2nd part so far, though
08:35:02  <dihedral> leowyn, there are auto update applications in the forums :-)
08:35:11  <planetmaker> ^ good point, dihedral :-)
08:36:02  <leowyn> planetmaker, I raised the very same question a few years ago here on IRC, and we came to the very same conclusion.
08:36:11  <planetmaker> :-)
08:36:16  <leowyn> so I guess I have to get used to living with power lines :)
08:36:39  <leowyn> I mean without them
08:36:48  <planetmaker> well. Check out the newgrf I linked. you can at least fake power lines visually (though you won't see the cables, just the masts)
08:37:13  <planetmaker> they'll have absolutely no influence on anything except using space, but well :-)
08:37:20  <leowyn> thanks for all the info, I have to go now
08:37:26  <leowyn> bye!
08:37:29  <Alberth> bye
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08:37:56  <planetmaker> one happy user :-)
08:39:06  <Terkhen> :)
08:39:11  <Alberth> "I discussed it a few years back, we concluded it did not work, but let's try again"
08:39:34  <planetmaker> hehe
08:39:41  <planetmaker> fair enough. We all do that, I guess
08:39:52  <planetmaker> Look at all the ponies andy is breeding
08:40:00  <planetmaker> ;-)
08:40:29  <planetmaker> he does it in a nice way, though :-)
08:42:16  <Alberth> the big difference is that he does a good job in finding ponies that have a chance to fly one day
08:42:32  <planetmaker> probably the point is to have sufficient ponies to raise and not put too much insistance on a single one. And one has to provide also food oneself
08:42:42  <planetmaker> yeah :-) That's another way to put it
08:43:02  <Alberth> and he is not afraid to do actual work :)
08:44:04  <planetmaker> indeed :-)
08:48:28  <dihedral> planetmaker, what do you think of a simple console update? :-D
08:48:42  <dihedral> not uploaded yet, but i have managed to strip the private range off the string :-)
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08:51:39  * andythenorth_ does some actual work
08:51:56  <andythenorth_> why do we refactor?
08:52:12  <Alberth> hai andy
08:52:29  <planetmaker> hi andy :-)
08:52:35  <andythenorth_>
08:52:40  <Alberth> improved clarity, or preparation for new things to add
08:52:41  <planetmaker> did we wake you? ;-)
08:52:45  <andythenorth_> nah
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08:53:05  <andythenorth_> I refactor *all* HEQS trucks to make adding one cargo type easier
08:53:10  <andythenorth_> pattern or anti-pattern?
08:53:18  * andythenorth_ thinks pattern
08:53:34  <planetmaker> sounds acceptable
08:53:44  <andythenorth_> means I can fix offsets faster later
08:53:50  <planetmaker> because you might at a later stage want to add yet another cargo
08:53:53  <andythenorth_> HEQS offsets are way wrong :D
08:54:02  <Alberth> "patterns are a design flaw in the language" ... [#python]
08:54:13  <planetmaker> :-D
08:55:01  <Alberth> I forgot who said it, unfortunately
08:55:13  <andythenorth_>
08:55:15  <KouDy> i assume it's not new (as usually) but i figured out maybe it would be handy to have drag and drop tunnel building
08:55:15  <andythenorth_> maybe
08:55:55  <Alberth> KouDy: how so? from the start, there is only one point possible for the exit
08:56:19  <Terkhen> you mean for building many tunnels at once?
08:56:29  <KouDy> if it's even possible... right now tunnel will catch on the nearest same level layer slope... but let's say i would start on slope and dragged into some point and released button even on the flat land
08:56:40  <KouDy> tool would level those 2 points down for me
08:56:49  <KouDy> and i have exact tunnel length i wanted
08:57:29  <KouDy> if it makes sense even O.o
08:58:00  <planetmaker> yes, sounds useful
08:58:08  <Terkhen> it does
08:58:11  <KouDy> ok i have slope... exit would be 30 tiles away... with this, i will drag tunnel length 5 tiles and release it
08:58:32  <KouDy> and i will have new exit
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08:58:57  <KouDy> ok.. i will post it on forum then
08:59:20  <planetmaker> suggestion or patch?
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08:59:35  <KouDy> what is it?
08:59:40  <KouDy> i think it's new feature
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09:00:09  <planetmaker> depends: if you write the code yourself, it's a patch, otherwise suggestion ;-)
09:00:14  <Alberth> hai frosch123
09:00:22  <KouDy> suggestion clearly then :)
09:00:30  <planetmaker> quaaaak :-)
09:00:48  <frosch123> morning everyone :)
09:01:15  <Terkhen> hi frosch123
09:01:21  <dihedral> planetmaker, same url different name ;-)
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09:01:58  <andythenorth_> quak
09:02:07  <andythenorth_> hmm
09:02:40  <andythenorth_> big a project would it be?
09:02:52  <andythenorth_> months / 1 year  / 2 years?
09:03:30  <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't know
09:03:35  <frosch123> 1 year
09:04:15  <Terkhen> what prerrequisites does it have?
09:04:26  <frosch123> there is lots of nasty stuff you have to define the behaviour of
09:04:40  <KouDy> i know you're super busy guys... but if you had time to check it... it's (well logically only) reversed bridge building
09:05:09  <dihedral> and what stopped you from posting that one line in here directly?
09:05:10  <Alberth> shouldn't we figure out what to do with junctions first?
09:05:33  <Alberth> or even simply wait until we read the forum?
09:05:58  <dihedral> i read it :-P
09:05:59  <Alberth> ie a long 'road train' would block a junction for a long time
09:06:35  * Alberth ponders all the nice opportunities to create a deadlock
09:06:54  <Terkhen> yes, that's one of the prerrequisites IMO
09:07:19  <Terkhen> another one would be overtaking
09:07:39  <Terkhen> currently a long enough RV completely blocks a road
09:07:45  <Alberth> finally trains can overtake :p
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09:08:06  <Alberth> but overtaking would be great indeed
09:08:52  <Terkhen> but even if overtaking was fixed to work with long articulated road vehicles, other vehicles could probably not overtake them because of vehicles coming in the opposite direction
09:08:59  <Terkhen> s/in/from/
09:09:27  <Alberth> one-way roads only would already be nice imho
09:10:09  <Terkhen> yes, they would be a workaround for overtaking too
09:10:16  <Alberth> not relevant for RV-wagons, but some sort of high way?
09:10:48  <Terkhen> yeah
09:11:48  <Alberth> hmm, speed limit in a town would do it
09:12:33  <Alberth> eg 'road with buildings next to it'
09:12:59  <Terkhen> I remember a patch for that
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09:15:57  <planetmaker> town speed limits definitely would need yet another advanced setting ;-)
09:16:11  <planetmaker> but yes, I recall seeing a patch for that, too
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09:26:11  <frosch123> hmm, what kind of e-mail service do you use? the ad-paid webmail i have been using for years gets crappier and crappier...
09:26:28  <frosch123> (not for the spam, but just buggy)
09:27:49  <andythenorth_> would rv wagons change the actual RV code in any way?
09:27:55  <andythenorth_> I assumed it would change the building code
09:28:32  * andythenorth_ rephrases question
09:28:42  <andythenorth_> would rv-wagons affect RV movement code at all?
09:29:07  <frosch123> andythenorth_: the trouble starts when you e.g. add restrictions on the length of usable stations, like for trains :)
09:29:14  <andythenorth_> don't bother
09:29:20  <andythenorth_> RVs don't work that way
09:29:41  <andythenorth_> if we make RVs entirely trains, there's no point to them apart from eye candy
09:29:43  <andythenorth_> :)
09:30:05  <andythenorth_> I guess I should say why I'm asking....
09:30:19  <frosch123> what is the differene between tram and train?
09:30:27  <andythenorth_> tram doesn't need block signalling etc
09:30:40  <andythenorth_> tram can proceed on mixed track with other rvs
09:30:53  <frosch123> a train is faster, a tram can drive through town without having to remove houses
09:31:02  <andythenorth_> trams can use cheap / small infrastructure
09:31:19  <frosch123> usual rv do not have lots of trailers
09:31:23  <andythenorth_> no
09:32:00  <andythenorth_> I have to make a choice for HEQS: recode all arvs to work like the trams (refit to different number of wagons)....or wait for rv-wagons
09:32:04  <frosch123> so i guess long rv would get drastic speed penalties when encounterning multiple curves
09:32:18  <frosch123> like more than 2 turns -> 3 mph
09:32:55  <andythenorth_> frosch123:
09:33:36  <Terkhen> I don't think the road movement code considers more than a single turn right now, but that new restriction should be easy to add
09:33:44  <andythenorth_> frosch123: how does it work with current rvs?
09:34:11  <frosch123> no idea, i would expect only the front matters
09:34:46  <xiong> I'm having some difficulty figuring out which pax station sets I might use with FIRS. I understand that I don't want to install a station set that provides industrial stations. Should I just experiment? Will any incompatibility show quickly or should I be on the watch for issues much later?
09:35:09  <andythenorth_> stations are pretty much independent and don't hurt each other
09:35:16  <andythenorth_> but adding / removing grfs does hurt :)
09:35:31  <andythenorth_> I like Canadian Stations personally.  Others have their favourites ;)
09:36:29  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: every part of the consist is checked, but penalties are not accumulated; only the first turn is considered
09:36:45  <andythenorth_> would it be independent of how the consist is built?
09:36:55  <xiong> Um. Well, I mean to add ( This appears to be only pax stations, of which I have built none yet in this game. But the homepage link is worthless and misleading.
09:36:55  <andythenorth_> independent / decoupled /s
09:37:00  <Terkhen> the function starts at line 385 of roadveh_cmd.cpp
09:37:15  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: I think so
09:38:45  <xiong> On another subject entirely but perhaps related to the ongoing discussion: I ran into some issues with one-way road cargos out of town. It's the 1850's, meaning horse, meaning only ro-ro road stations work. Farm supplies don't come in great quantity but to encourage them, I'm serving heavily.
09:40:00  *** azaghal_ is now known as azaghal
09:40:00  <xiong> They tended to leave town empty and make a wasted trip out to the farm -- actually, a transfer point. But setting them not to leave until full loaded would cause terrible road jams and probably not appear to be good service to the forge.
09:40:48  <andythenorth_> xiong: articulated rvs in town are problematic
09:40:56  <xiong> So, I set a conditional order as Order #2, causing it to loop around to the pickup order if not carrying at least something. This seems to work well.
09:41:10  <andythenorth_> possibly I should move some of the FIRS town industries out of town
09:41:24  <andythenorth_> players keep requesting that they appear in town, but it causes serious traffic problems :P
09:41:25  <xiong> andythenorth_, In this case, I really only have a hammer. ;)
09:42:21  <dihedral> how does it cause traffic issues?
09:43:15  <xiong> The jams are not bad. I have the mis-named 3x3 grid on and there are many complete loop routes around town, so the idle vehicles don't bunch up and breakdowns don't stop the whole show. A few different physical stations for the forge and Bob's your uncle.
09:43:25  <andythenorth_> if using RVs, the number of RVs required is quite high
09:43:46  <andythenorth_> it's quite easy to deadlock - the vehicles delivering cargo are obstructed by the vehicles waiting to pickup
09:44:02  <andythenorth_> demolishing half the town and building one way roads is a solution
09:44:03  <dihedral> hehehe
09:44:17  <xiong> Indeed. I've got 14 carriages from Iron Ore Mine to Forge.
09:44:24  <dihedral> or allowing to set the direction on town owned roads
09:44:43  <andythenorth_> often the town grid makes it hard to place rv stops
09:44:58  <xiong> Ah. But that's why the conditional order. Vehicles don't wait to pick up; either they make the pickup or they go around. Seems to work.
09:45:00  <andythenorth_> if articulated rvs could use 'normal' rv stops that would help....but that's not going to happen
09:45:10  <xiong> Wouldn't be right.
09:46:04  <xiong> The vehicle fails to pick up and boxes the block, tries again. There's more than one physical stop so all vehicles have some choices.
09:47:12  <xiong> Out at the transfer point, I have two stops close together and a loop of road. I threw a lot of empties there and they stooged around for a time until cargo was delivered from town. Then they left, none empty.
09:48:03  <xiong> I think I've got this much licked. Horse is not going to be the total solution to anything, I suppose; even with 14, the mine is complaining hard.
09:48:57  <xiong> But the horses stimulate business a little, get things started, and keep things going in case of rail tie-ups and reconstruction. Now, I'm building the heavy ore rail loop.
09:49:38  <xiong> Perhaps I should build up an Old Country savegame with only horses. ;D
09:51:08  <planetmaker> I fear the game balance might not be good in that case.
09:55:22  <xiong> Well, one would have to think about it as a show piece. Demolish all but low-tech industry, for one.
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09:56:25  <xiong> Probably want to write a special NewGRF for it, that doesn't allow things like streetlights. You'd want a dirt road as well as a paved road.
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09:57:17  <xiong> I suppose, for really big towns, gaslights would be acceptable.
09:57:25  <planetmaker> use NA roads
09:57:42  <planetmaker> with the parameters such that the old style is kept
09:59:43  <xiong> Hm. Why don't I see any of this stuff when I 'check online content'?
09:59:53  <andythenorth_> 'stuff'?
10:00:13  <xiong>
10:00:27  <xiong> That's what you meant, right, planetmaker?
10:00:49  <planetmaker> yeah
10:03:56  <xiong> I don't see the Canadian Stations Set either. I see it on the web but not through the game 'check online content'.
10:04:00  *** Keiya [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:04:35  <planetmaker> xiong: those people boycott the online content download
10:04:41  <planetmaker> Maybe persuade them...
10:04:46  <frosch123> :p
10:05:11  <planetmaker> better write your own grf and upload that then
10:05:24  <planetmaker> might be the faster approach
10:05:32  <xiong> I'm already working hard on bigsig.
10:06:10  <xiong> ( Apparently there's no interest but I'm out of ideas.
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10:09:50  <planetmaker> honestly I find the string of colourful bubbles anything but clear
10:09:55  <planetmaker> Especially in convoluted areas
10:10:17  <dihedral> yes, think the same
10:10:39  <dihedral> the other image was somewhat nicer
10:11:05  <dihedral> combine the yellow light and the array (yellow arrow) and that will make the images smaller too
10:11:06  <planetmaker> especially as you redefine the meaning of the usual indications for the different block signals which became a quasi standard by the orientation of the colour bars
10:11:22  <planetmaker> as well as their colour (speaking of entry, combo and exit signals)
10:18:11  <xiong> Something's got to go. Which?
10:18:44  <dihedral> if you keep asking use what to do we might as well just do it ourselves
10:18:50  <xiong> I can't fit orientation into this sort of scheme; orientation is about which way the signal faces.
10:19:36  <Alberth> I'd consider orientation more important than the colour of the signal
10:19:40  <xiong> In fact, this business about a horizontal yellow bar and a vertical yellow bar meaning two different things is extremely confusing, visually.
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10:20:12  <xiong> You do understand that there's not really any way for me to see the difference without stopping the game and pulling out a magnifying glass?
10:20:29  <ccfreak2k> Where does this guy drive in the USA where there's left-handed roads
10:20:30  <ccfreak2k> ?
10:20:37  <xiong> And if the signal is edge-on, it's completely useless. There might just as well be a blank post there.
10:20:48  <Alberth> that's why you are writing a new signal GRF isn't it?
10:20:51  <xiong> ccfreak2k, It was just a mistake early on in the sketch.
10:21:07  <ccfreak2k> >Let me point out first of all that I'm an American, accustomed to right-hand running (although we do have some left-hand roads here)
10:21:14  <xiong> ccfreak2k, Obviously, bigsig should work equally well for left-hand or right-hand signallers.
10:21:37  <xiong> Oh. Yeh. You mean that literally. C&NW drives left.
10:21:50  <xiong> I know that personally.
10:22:19  <ccfreak2k> Oh rairoads.
10:22:45  <xiong> Um, bigsig is all railroad signals.
10:23:28  <xiong> C&NW is a left-hand running road. Sorry but this is... a trivial point. Yes?
10:24:29  <xiong> planetmaker, There is no such thing as a standard signal convention. Not only every country but every road uses a different system. Different divisions of the same road, after a a merger, may use different systems.
10:24:44  <planetmaker> xiong: there is. Within the TTD world
10:25:01  <planetmaker> and you're always for using precise well-defined terms. So why not here?
10:25:14  <dihedral> hehe
10:25:16  <dihedral> 1:0
10:25:22  <xiong> Okay, well, those conventions were poorly chosen, since the indications cannot be observed clearly. I'm trying to help.
10:25:58  <xiong> It should be quite clear that these are not standard signals. I mean for them to be different, quite different, and not at all realistic.
10:25:59  <dihedral> you are trying to reflect your own 'perfect' self onto OpenTTD
10:26:21  <xiong> Again, you tell me: Something has to give; what?
10:26:27  <dihedral> which is somewhat what we all do :-D
10:27:26  <xiong> I can't literally just double the size of existing signals. That would be the least amount of difference. But they still would be unreadable from the back side and nearly unintelligible from the side.
10:28:04  <Alberth> xiong: do what you think is the best solution.
10:28:27  <dihedral> \o/
10:28:33  <xiong> The issues to be solved are to make facing, indication, and type visible for all unobstructed signals.
10:28:41  <xiong> Alberth, I did. Nobody likes it.
10:28:57  <dihedral> i cannot read him any longer
10:28:59  <Alberth> xiong: so what is the problem?
10:29:10  <xiong> Nobody likes it.
10:29:35  <Alberth> does "nobody" include yourself?
10:29:58  <xiong> Alberth, Did you see planetmaker's comment? bigsig-003 does not follow standard signal conventions. I'm trying to find out how they might do so.
10:30:25  <planetmaker> I'm one person only. Why would you care?
10:30:33  <xiong> You spoke. I care.
10:30:47  <xiong> Nobody else has even bothered to say why they don't like it.
10:31:04  <planetmaker> you mistake no comment with 'not like'
10:31:08  <Alberth> xiong: most if not all people here do things what they think is good/nice/fun/useful. If you are lucky, some people agree.
10:31:16  <xiong> There was negative comment on 001, some real enthusiasm for 002, and nothing at all for 003.
10:31:26  <planetmaker> people will often only comment or give feedback when they have a newgrf they can try. And even then feedback is very scarce
10:31:36  <xiong> Yah, I know all of this.
10:31:38  <planetmaker> You get maybe feedback by 1 o/oo of the users
10:32:02  <xiong> Since you spoke against 003, that makes your feedback not only rare but valuable.
10:33:16  <xiong> I can take all sorts of criticism, right up to 'brutal'. I'd prefer to hear ideas on how to improve 003 incrementally but if that's just a blind alley, okay. How can the basic goal be accomplished, even in theory?
10:33:21  <planetmaker> people are much less likely to give feedback, if they're satisfied with something.
10:33:58  <Alberth> xiong: eg I don't give feedback, because I live happily with the current signals.
10:34:14  <Terkhen> that's true, I remember most of my patches getting no feedback from users unless I messed up something important
10:34:17  <Alberth> xiong: that however does not make your contribution worthless
10:34:23  <xiong> Okay, Alberth; let's start there. *How* do you live with the current signals?
10:34:26  <planetmaker> but you might give them a shot, once they're around ;-)
10:34:41  <xiong> How can you see them at all? How can you tell what they do?
10:35:06  <planetmaker> xiong: the red/green thing is not an issue really, it's not interesting. Just the type
10:35:17  <planetmaker> and the facing
10:35:35  <Alberth> xiong: I can see them just fine, I understand how they work, that's all I need
10:35:44  <xiong> planetmaker, The entire point of a signal is the indication: 'proceed' or 'stop'. Baffles me why you say it's unimportant; you said that before.
10:36:10  <planetmaker> I can't influence the state. It's done by the PF / trains themselves automagically
10:36:12  <Alberth> xiong: the program handles green/red correctly, why would I be bothered with it?
10:36:20  <xiong> Alberth, okay that you understand. Please, let me in on it. Would you like me to post a shot?
10:36:22  <planetmaker> when I play I'm only interested in things which make a difference
10:36:45  <Alberth> of what?
10:36:46  <planetmaker> red / green is only a momentary thing. the type influences how the network behaves
10:38:02  <Alberth> xiong: note that I am very careful with signal placement, I don't simply drop a few random signals at some places.
10:39:03  <Terkhen> that's true, and if something goes wrong the cause can be deduced by the state of the network
10:40:37  <Alberth> xiong: what is your goal of the big-signals grf?
10:42:56  <dihedral> no, Alberth takes forever and a day to place a single signal :-P
10:43:14  <dihedral> time is in OpenTTD terms of course
10:44:34  <Alberth> I am really fast, I bet they cannot do that in real-life :p
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10:44:58  <planetmaker> \o/ to auto-signal ;-)
10:45:12  <planetmaker> drag, drop, 2000 tiles signaled ;-)
10:45:30  <dihedral> hehe :-P
10:48:04  <xiong> Please see: (
10:50:02  <Alberth> planetmaker: you're cheating :)
10:50:17  <planetmaker> hu?
10:50:25  <xiong> planetmaker, You seem to have a hard time condescending to those of lesser ability. I'd like to ask you to make more effort. Imagine that you did not understand everything about signals; that your signals were poorly placed; that they did not work correctly or usefully. You might want to see what they were doing.
10:50:52  * andythenorth_ wonders about an alternative view
10:50:53  <planetmaker> rest assured that I see a LOT of that work
10:50:56  <Alberth> xiong: you have transparency switched on or so?
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10:51:05  <xiong> ???
10:51:54  <xiong> Alberth, it's a line of signals. There aren't any other objects nearby on the map. This is hardly the most difficult signal setup to take apart. But I think you'll have a hard time; I know I do.
10:51:55  <Alberth> oh, they are facing backwards.
10:52:19  <xiong> But if I'm wrong, well, I really want to know how you do it. Tell me the type, facing, and indication of those signals.
10:52:36  <xiong> I'll settle for 2 out of 3.
10:52:50  <andythenorth_> how about a track display like this?
10:53:29  <xiong> andythenorth_, I don't mean to be huffy but first, I'd like you to take a crack at my little puzzle. Can you tell me anything about that line of signals?
10:53:34  <planetmaker> still. My signals look different
10:53:42  <Alberth> select the signal you want from the signal gui at some place, select 'signal conversion tool', click at the signal. Done
10:53:58  <xiong> Well, I'd like my signals to look different too, planetmaker.
10:53:58  <andythenorth_>
10:54:19  <planetmaker> xiong: then use a new OpenGFX...
10:54:20  <xiong> Alberth, I didn't ask how to change a signal. I asked how to tell what it is, now.
10:54:24  <Alberth> ie I don't look at the signals, I just change it to the one I want to have, and I know it is correct
10:54:45  <xiong> Alberth, You have, on a large map, how many signals? They are all, always correct?
10:54:47  <andythenorth_> xiong: I can't tell much about those signals
10:54:56  <xiong> Come on guys, I think you are all pulling my leg.
10:54:59  <andythenorth_> I only use pbs so I'm no expert
10:55:21  <andythenorth_> I find the other signals confusing
10:55:28  <xiong> I understand that when you're experienced, you don't screw up your signals. They're right, so you don't need to change them.
10:55:30  <Alberth> xiong: I placed each one to the system that I use
10:55:47  <andythenorth_> the pre-signals were more logic puzzle than fun game in my view
10:55:48  <andythenorth_> :P
10:55:51  <Alberth> and like andy, I use only 2 types of signal
10:55:57  <xiong> Right. Will you please just see this from another viewpoint? What about the fellow who doesn't know what to do?
10:56:02  * andythenorth_ is no good at logic puzzles
10:56:20  <andythenorth_> xiong: I'm just as confused as the other fellow :)
10:56:23  <planetmaker> xiong: I just see that you use some unfortunate signal graphics which are NOT default
10:56:27  <xiong> If you cannot tell what those signals are, then you should see that this might be an issue for another fellow.
10:56:30  <Alberth> xiong: start simple, with just the standard block signal
10:57:02  <Alberth> xiong: and then add one of the PBS signals. That's all you ever need
10:57:07  <xiong> planetmaker, They're not that different from the default. Would you feel it was more a fair test if I switched to default signals?
10:57:28  <Alberth> I always use default signals
10:57:37  <Alberth> and only the electric ones
10:57:42  <xiong> Would I buy anything, any concession, if I did it over?
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10:58:09  <Alberth> I don't understand that question
10:58:21  <xiong> I find these signals marginally easier to see than the default.
10:58:32  <planetmaker> <-- see there
10:58:36  <Alberth> ok, so use those
10:58:55  <xiong> Alberth, They're not good enough. How can I say that clearly?
10:59:08  <planetmaker> xiong: you claimed so far, that the signals openttd ships with are a pain
10:59:18  <planetmaker> Now you show that you do NOT use the signals OpenTTD ships with
10:59:30  <planetmaker> oh well. Then I don't quite understand what the issue is.
10:59:42  <xiong> Neither set is adequate.
10:59:53  <planetmaker> If I don't use what is default, but complain about that the game is difficulty for the visually challenged... try the usual stuff first
11:00:04  <Alberth> xiong: I am then sorry to inform you that what you want does not exist yet
11:00:10  <planetmaker> despite you claimed totally wrong things.
11:00:14  <xiong> I find them nearly identical. If you like, I will redo the test over with default signals. But then, you really don't seem to get my point.
11:00:28  <xiong> I tried the default set!
11:00:44  <planetmaker> I could also try TTD, compain that newgrfs don't work and report that to OpenTTD. Wouldn't make it correct
11:00:53  <xiong> I said I tried the default set. I said it was a problem for me. You said to try another set; I did.
11:01:02  <Alberth> xiong: so make a nice newgrf that fixes your problem in the way you like it, what's wrong with that?
11:01:15  <planetmaker> yet you show in our discussion comparisons with something obviously much worse
11:01:22  <xiong> Alberth, That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to find out, now, why this is wrong.
11:01:47  <xiong> planetmaker, I said, very recently, that for me, the new set is slightly better.
11:01:50  <Alberth> xiong: no, that is trying to please other people
11:02:02  <xiong> Now, I will redo the test using default signal graphics.
11:02:31  <Alberth> xiong: you cannot make a grf that pleases everybody
11:04:00  <Alberth> whether we can see the signals properly or not is not the problem, I think
11:05:04  <xiong> No, it's not.
11:05:15  <xiong> But if you can't tell then how can you expect me to do so?
11:05:35  *** Keiya_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:05:44  <Alberth> how does that change your problem?
11:05:53  <xiong> Apparently, you don't believe that I'm having any trouble; or that perhaps someone *else* might have trouble, too.
11:05:53  <Alberth> not, as far as I can see
11:06:09  <Alberth> xiong: I believe you are having trouble
11:06:32  <Alberth> and I like it that you try to fix it by making a signal newgrf
11:06:36  <xiong> Fine. planetmaker does not, at any rate; and he's the one who said bigsig-003 was a bad idea.
11:07:07  <xiong> And I truly would like to know what direction to move in. Because I do like to do things right.
11:07:18  <Alberth> but you seem obsessed by the idea that everybody has the same problem
11:07:22  <xiong> If you want to comment, Alberth, great.
11:07:38  <planetmaker> you're hungry. Left of you is an apple tree, right of you a pear tree. Which fruit is right?
11:07:42  <xiong> Absolutely not! It's not really much of an issue whether you are able to signal your road.
11:08:18  <xiong> It's a big issue, to me, whether I am able to signal my road. I think we should all consider the possibility that other people may want to signal their roads.
11:08:46  <xiong> planetmaker, I don't do well with that kind of thing. I'm talking about signals.
11:08:48  <Alberth> xiong: the only way forward is what you think is best. You'll get questions, advice, and remarks. Judge them, take out what you think is a good point, and discard everything else
11:09:09  <xiong> Well, so far I have got exactly one comment and it's going nowhere.
11:09:32  <Alberth> so discard it
11:09:43  <Alberth> are you happy with what you have?
11:09:43  <xiong> To back up to my original point: Nobody seems to like 003. I'm out of ideas.
11:10:07  <xiong> Alberth, I thought it was a good idea, yes -- not perfect but workable.
11:10:55  <Alberth> so stick with it, use it, publish it, and move on to other things
11:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a donkey is hungry, he is next to two haystacks, but both are exactly the same distance from him => he starves before making a decision.
11:11:23  <xiong> Alberth, Would you mind reading the thread?
11:11:33  <xiong> At least, read the last post.
11:11:35  <planetmaker> similar, yes :-)
11:11:36  <andythenorth_> go west
11:11:40  <andythenorth_> there is a haystack here
11:11:46  <andythenorth_> eat haystack
11:11:46  <xiong> I think it's foolish for me to repeat myself.
11:11:52  * andythenorth_ is apparently not a donkey
11:11:58  <planetmaker> pony?
11:12:09  <andythenorth_> pony rider
11:12:12  <planetmaker> :-)
11:12:13  <xiong> What are you guys talking about?
11:12:18  <andythenorth_> nonsense :P
11:12:22  <Alberth> xiong: the post by planetmaker ?
11:12:40  <andythenorth_> hmm
11:12:57  * andythenorth_ waves flag labelled 'orders and other stuff'
11:13:52  * andythenorth_ looks in src
11:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: what i don't like with 003 is that you can't see *at first glance*, without looking at each signal, what type it is. there are too many coloured dots
11:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the signal state (whether it is red or green) is the least interesting bit. the type is important.
11:15:19  <xiong> Alberth, I read very quickly and it's not an effort for me. If I were you, I might read the whole thread, at the least suggestion. I'd appreciate it if you read this post in particular: (
11:15:44  <Eddi|zuHause> both things should be displayed, but in very visually distinguished ways
11:15:49  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, There are three. Should there be two?
11:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i mean more like: they shouldn't both be dots
11:16:25  <xiong> I'm interested in facing, type, and indication. I cannot seem to convey the importance of indication. I understand why you think it is unimportant.
11:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i never noticed indication at a problem, that is easily deduced from the signal side...
11:17:15  <dihedral> what on earth are those signals
11:17:25  <dihedral> is that some grf he is using?
11:17:31  <planetmaker> street lights it seems
11:17:36  <xiong> Indication is unimportant if signals are working properly or if you understand signals very well. If your signals are poorly laid and you understand them poorly, then indication is an important clue to what is wrong. Please tell me that's obvious.
11:17:37  <planetmaker> must be some funky newgrf, yes
11:17:46  <xiong> Indication is the entire point of a signal.
11:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's not.
11:18:32  <Eddi|zuHause> the only time where i _really_ wanted to see the signal state was whether there was a train in the (long) tunnel or not
11:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> all other situations are irrelevant...
11:18:41  <xiong> If a signal did not indicate, it could be replaced with a fixed wooden sign.
11:19:14  <andythenorth_> hmm
11:19:21  <andythenorth_> there's no transparent mode for tracks
11:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i agree with planetmaker there. the signal state is only interesting for the train driver. not for the network developer
11:19:37  <andythenorth_> if there was, we could do something interesting....
11:19:52  <xiong> This is extremely clear to me. You don't see it my way because you have a different, more skilled viewpoint. Can you not understand that I see it differently from my less-skilled viewpoint?
11:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i think wolf01 had a patch for that
11:20:24  <andythenorth_> the idea of a ctc / route display / dispatcher board / whatever they're called would be good
11:20:38  <xiong> If I think a signal should be red and it is actually green, that tells me my thoughts are in error.
11:20:52  <andythenorth_> basically I'm thinking of an overlay of all track (but implemented as an underlay, available in transparent mode)
11:21:11  <andythenorth_> it would reduce the tracks to coloured bars, and the signals could be like xiong's 002 proposal
11:21:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: you mean like "show reserverd paths"?
11:21:30  <andythenorth_> similar
11:21:38  <andythenorth_> but explicitly toggled using transaprent
11:21:43  <planetmaker> where do I need that, andythenorth_ ?
11:21:49  <andythenorth_> think of it more like the matrix :P
11:22:00  <andythenorth_> it would show some 'underlying reality' :P
11:22:00  <xiong> andythenorth_, I've endorsed the idea of bigsigs being transparent. I think it's an excellent idea.
11:22:05  <planetmaker> tracks have no height, don't obstruct anything
11:22:24  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: but you don't want enormous great coloured blobs on your track most of the time
11:22:50  <planetmaker> yes, I'd make a separate transparency for signals
11:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i think it might be an idea worth pursuing
11:22:59  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Let's leave indication alone for the moment. Can you agree that I might want help seeing facing and type?
11:23:01  <Alberth> xiong: it is too extreme for me, but if it works for you, it seems fine
11:23:09  <planetmaker> which toggles between normal and track-planning
11:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: but it should include removing the vehicles/replacing them by coloured blobs also
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11:23:28  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: why?
11:23:30  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: we'd need a man who looked like this :)
11:23:38  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: don't ask why, ask why not :P
11:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: to get a purely schematic view of your network
11:23:53  <andythenorth_> it would just be neat
11:24:13  <planetmaker> hm... similar to the minimap display of vehicles. Why not
11:25:36  <andythenorth_>
11:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there was once a pathfinder debug mode, which turned the ground dirt/grass depending on what decisions it made
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11:26:38  <andythenorth_> how would this work?
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11:26:58  <andythenorth_> I am used to industry tiles where there is a *lot* of control over what is displayed in transparent mode
11:27:15  <andythenorth_> this seems more like a 'big patch'
11:27:30  <planetmaker> there's no such thing in the code for ground tiles
11:27:36  <xiong> Okay, well, let me ask an unrelated question. I have not set a NewGRF parameter yet. How should I set param #4 to 3? I know this is easy but please, just type the correct command. I'll pick it up.
11:27:38  <planetmaker> the only thing you have is to pseudo-random things
11:27:45  <planetmaker> s/things/bits/
11:27:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: there is an old problem how to get more than one "reservation" type into the map...
11:27:50  <planetmaker> s/to/two/
11:28:08  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: does it need more than one reservation type?
11:28:08  <planetmaker> the map space is too limited indeed
11:28:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: depending on the value of "it", yes.
11:28:37  <andythenorth_> I was thinking if a tile had signal(s) on it, display that
11:28:46  <andythenorth_> but using custom ground tiles...
11:28:56  <planetmaker> that's feasable
11:29:02  <planetmaker> as the signals are on the tile
11:29:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: for every persistent overlay, you need some bit in the map array to store it
11:29:14  <andythenorth_> hmm
11:29:16  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: if it's a global switch for debuging
11:29:19  <andythenorth_> that worried me about the idea
11:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: signals, signal state, reservation are examples of these bits that are already present
11:29:44  <andythenorth_> so we can't just read what already exists, but switch graphics?
11:30:17  <frosch123> just implement proper new signals :)
11:30:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but one of the first YAPP/PBS wishlist items was handling of overtaking trains, which needs "weak" reservations. and those don't fit on the map
11:30:27  <planetmaker> one could do with the information whatever pleases. What frosch says
11:30:28  <frosch123> ("proper" meaning action123)
11:30:46  <frosch123> (not 235)
11:31:24  <planetmaker> hm
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11:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: we certainly can do that as well... just telling it's an old wishlist item
11:32:01  <xiong> Guys. Please.
11:32:40  <Alberth> xiong: sorry, I don't know about newgrf parameters at all
11:33:14  <xiong> Thanks, Alberth.
11:33:30  <planetmaker> xiong: you know.. there's a wiki which explains
11:33:39  * andythenorth_ lets that pony free
11:33:47  <andythenorth_> I have no use for it anyway :)
11:34:02  <xiong> planetmaker, I spend much time on that wiki.
11:34:15  <xiong> I'm there now. I still don't have the info I need.
11:34:40  * andythenorth_ tries to understand order code
11:34:44  <andythenorth_> with mixed success
11:34:50  <dihedral> so you ask everybody else to spend the time too
11:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: have you looked at action D?
11:35:38  <xiong> There is exactly one example given, not clear, which does not tell how to skip a parameter, leaving it in the default. I asked how to set #4 to 3.
11:36:06  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Sorry, I don't know what that is, where to look for it, or what it might tell me.
11:36:20  <andythenorth_> xiong: this is probably too complicated as an example, but:
11:36:43  * xiong looks
11:36:45  <andythenorth_> and it uses CPP so is probably misleading
11:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i mean
11:36:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: I think he means ingame usage
11:37:02  <planetmaker> or not?
11:37:38  <andythenorth_> xiong: if you mean ingame, for most grfs, specifying 0 will leave param at default
11:37:41  <dihedral> which means he has to set every parameter leading to the one he wants to set
11:37:44  <xiong> Correct. Ingame. Can I just say once that I'm new here and I need basic info?
11:37:55  <andythenorth_> say it twice, there's no charge :)
11:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i don't think it was ever possible to skip parameters
11:38:14  <andythenorth_> depending on base for counting to #4....try this
11:38:17  <andythenorth_> 0 0 0 3
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11:38:25  <andythenorth_> or it could be 0 0 0 0 3
11:38:31  <xiong> Ah. Thank you, Eddi|zuHause. That's really all I needed to know. I must be explicit.
11:38:54  <andythenorth_> and newgrf authors should be *strongly* encouraged to use action 14
11:38:54  <xiong> andythenorth_++ # best answer
11:39:18  <andythenorth_> there should be prizes awarded for action 14 support, even retrofitting to old grfs
11:40:11  <xiong> I'm going to assume that if the readme author doesn't name a param #0 then he counts from #1.
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11:52:30  <Alberth> A readme should explain the user point of view, what number the first value gets inside a grf is not important for a user
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12:13:04  <andythenorth_> any suggestions how to make HEQS compatible with AIs?
12:13:20  <andythenorth_>
12:14:23  <planetmaker> not your job, andythenorth_
12:14:45  <planetmaker> same question would be "how to make HEQS compatible with stupid players"
12:15:18  <Terkhen> yeah, IMO the AI author should take into account vehicle length too
12:15:43  <frosch123> ais do not know the length before building though :)
12:15:47  <planetmaker> that's not accessible, though
12:15:52  <Terkhen> hmmm...
12:16:04  <Terkhen> then they don't have a way of preventing this
12:16:05  <planetmaker> other than visual feedback you don't know either
12:17:30  <andythenorth_> I could remove those vehicles
12:18:30  <frosch123> ais know about articulated vehicles though
12:18:41  <frosch123> i.e. they know "long", but not "how long" :)
12:19:44  <Terkhen> I don't know how complicated would be to make this information visible to AIs, or if it would be useful
12:19:52  <Terkhen> besides this problem
12:20:10  <frosch123> Terkhen: what length do you want to report for heqs trams?
12:20:19  * andythenorth_ shrugs
12:20:20  <frosch123> 4 tiles or 9 tiles?
12:20:21  <andythenorth_> no idea
12:20:40  <Terkhen> hm... indeed, it is complicated :)
12:20:54  <frosch123> effectively you have to build the vehicle, assign all vehicle variables, and then sell it again without desyncing
12:21:00  <frosch123> (simliar as autoreplace does for trains)
12:21:13  <andythenorth_> to do rv-wagons?
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12:44:47  <TrueBrain> sing song sang
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12:45:43  * andythenorth_ stacks up bug fixes, no new features :(
12:46:28  <Alberth> wouldn't it be great if we could write correct code?
12:46:44  <andythenorth_> bug fixes are duty
12:46:44  <TrueBrain> bug free code is fiction
12:46:47  <andythenorth_> features are glory :P
12:48:00  <Terkhen> yes, but they also bring new bugs in :)
12:48:29  <Terkhen> if you never added a single feature again, eventually you would not have to fix any bugs
12:48:34  <andythenorth_> hmm
12:48:41  <andythenorth_> some of my bug fixes introduce bugs :)
12:48:41  <TrueBrain> Terkhen: there will always be some bug :p
12:48:54  <TrueBrain> even if that bug is the lack of features :)
12:48:58  <Terkhen> I never said how long would "eventually" take :)
12:49:11  <andythenorth_> I need some 'worth starting a new game for' features :)
12:49:26  <TrueBrain> someone once made a 'proof' which states that that 'eventually' never comes
12:49:28  <TrueBrain> :p
12:49:44  <andythenorth_> TrueBrain: sounds like xeno's paradox
12:49:50  <Alberth> TrueBrain: a world free of war is fiction too, but that doesn't mean we should give up that dream imho
12:49:53  <frosch123> how is the "firs is not finished" bug going?
12:49:54  <andythenorth_>'s_paradoxes
12:50:18  <andythenorth_> frosch123: I closed it
12:50:28  <andythenorth_> tickets should have some kind of win condition in them
12:50:35  <frosch123> :p
12:50:44  <Alberth> I read about plans for no less than 9 economies though
12:50:44  <andythenorth_> bad ticket :P
12:50:49  <andythenorth_> Alberth: indeed
12:50:58  <andythenorth_> I need a lot of planetmaker help for that though :)
12:51:11  <andythenorth_> I will continue refactoring HEQS, then I can add some features to it :)
12:51:18  <andythenorth_> first clean house though
12:52:23  <TrueBrain> Alberth: gooood point :)
12:53:17  <Alberth> frosch123: that's one of the problems of open source, it is never finished. And if the devs stop development, users will abandon it because of age.
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12:56:25  <andythenorth_> helps to keep up a steady stream of 'new'
12:56:42  <andythenorth_> keeps players coming back
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12:59:47  * andythenorth_ has big trak
13:00:00  <andythenorth_>
13:00:08  <andythenorth_> ^ how I learnt to programme
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14:31:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hey... i found a cool feature of my onboad-graphics: screen updates are turned into sounds! :p
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14:35:45  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, now you just need to be able to turn those sounds back into an image, and have another computer somewhere with a mic
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14:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if my eyes are going bad, or it's antialiasing... but everything on my screen looks fuzzier than normal...
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15:31:13  <Zuu> I really like the new visual feedback of drag-n-drop in the depot/orders window :-)
15:32:53  <avdg> hmm, I didn't notice that yet
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15:33:22  <avdg> indeed very nice
15:39:47  <TrueBrain> poor Eddi|zuHause
15:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: then please support me on ;)
15:42:14  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: when dragging articualted RV, only the first part is drawn too
15:42:23  <SmatZ> the same applies to aircraft
15:42:30  <SmatZ> (no rotor is shown for helis)
15:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: that's all the more reason to fix it
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15:43:05  <SmatZ> it's always been the case, since TTO ;)
15:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> there were no articulated vehicles in TTO :p
15:43:34  <avdg> best way is to change the mouse cursor imo
15:43:52  <avdg> with a dropicon
15:44:38  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: but there were helis
15:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: but nobody used them ;)
15:51:38  * Rubidium blesses Eddi|zuHause to implement FS#4165
15:52:52  <SmatZ> :)
15:53:05  <Zuu> Eddi: I also found the bahviour of eg. dual head engines a bit inconsistent.
15:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the way i see it, there are two parts to that: a) allowing the mouse cursor to show multiple (stacked) sprites, and b) make the drop-space-indicator wider
15:53:51  <Rubidium> then implement them
15:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: have i ever told you that i'm not touching GUI code even at gunpoint? :p
15:54:15  <Rubidium> I've not said at all that I would do it, so why should I care at this moment?
15:54:37  * SmatZ points a gun at Eddi|zuHause
15:55:55  <andythenorth_> what changed in depot view?  I just looked for commits about it, don't see any in last few weeks
15:56:18  <avdg> uh, we should all go back to school and learn more about reading -_
15:56:34  <avdg> fs4176 is a proof of that
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16:03:12  <avdg> can someone with an windows os do a favor for me and test issue 4176 on other ingame windows?
16:03:51  <avdg> I think it has to do with the industry window behaving different then other windows
16:04:15  <avdg> oh nvm
16:04:18  <Rubidium> well, I tested the (group) vehicle list
16:04:38  <avdg> its hard to test on a os not having that issue
16:05:04  * avdg blames "blokresizing"
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16:06:42  <Zuu> avdg: I guess you need a input device working in relative mode in order to reproduce that bug, so that you can drag outside of the window?
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16:07:00  <avdg> I can reproduce it half
16:07:17  <avdg> by dragging the resize button outside the screen
16:07:40  <Zuu> Sounds like one need to be in relative mode then.
16:08:08  <glx> avdg: it's easy to reproduce on windows :)
16:08:36  <avdg> imo the dragbutton shouldn't get outside the window if you have the captionbar on top of the screen
16:08:37  <Zuu> I can't reproduce it with my most mouse-like device (a trackball)
16:10:11  <Zuu> If I drag at the left-most part of the drag button, I can get most of it outside of the screen, but there will still be a pixel or two that can be used to reduce the size of the window again.
16:10:32  <avdg> but that isn't user friendly imo
16:10:57  <avdg> if I mis a few pixels, I click outside the window
16:11:46  <Zuu> Oh, now I can reproduce it, if I do not have my window maximized.
16:11:57  <avdg> ok, it is possible to have that issue here
16:12:06  <avdg> but you need to have luck
16:12:45  <Zuu> Still, you can always hit delete (or ctrl+delete) to recover if you get the issue.
16:12:47  <avdg> the size must match with the window height - dragbutton
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16:14:35  <avdg> _very_ lucky, but possible
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16:15:22  <planetmaker> it's easily possible to have windows larger than either extension, x or y. But in x it doesn't matter
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16:16:34  <glx> if window is maximised, resising x can't go outside the window :)
16:16:58  <glx> but y can still go outside, because there's the taskbar
16:17:31  <planetmaker> yep. x is not problematic as I can move the window given the title bar. But in y I cannot move it out of the top of the screen
16:18:03  * glx is trying something anyway
16:18:12  <planetmaker> actually I like sometimes to have windows wider than the main window (or even desktop)
16:18:40  <avdg> thats still possible
16:18:54  <avdg> and I don't think that should be disabled too
16:19:07  <avdg> I don't know issue about the width
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16:42:42  <xiong> I think it's possible to fool 'max station spread' by building more than one platform in one click. True?
16:43:43  <Progman> you mean by building a 5x6 station at the 64x64 tile of an already build station?
16:44:16  <xiong> Well, I have max set to 18.
16:44:26  <xiong> But yes, that general idea.
16:45:34  <xiong> Near as I can tell, only 2 platforms of a 4-platform station are within my spread. I don't know whether I'm measuring wrong or have some other mental shortcoming.
16:45:35  <Progman> not possible, you get "Station too big"
16:46:26  <TrueBrain> Can we put that question to a vote?
16:46:49  <xiong> Um. Does 'max spread' mean "maximum distance away from the physical station with station sign attached"? Or "maximum distance between any two physical stations within a single logical station"?
16:47:00  <xiong> Because one might be twice the other.
16:48:13  <xiong> I have a hard time figuring this out because I can't tell easily which of my physical stations are combined with which others. Last game turned into a real snarl. This time, I tried to be more orderly but it's still a mess.
16:48:19  <dihedral> TRY IT
16:48:33  <TrueBrain> dihedral: don't be insane
16:48:55  <TrueBrain> its much much MUCH more fun to ask
16:49:14  <dihedral> this guys is only talk - nothing else
16:49:34  <dihedral> i would not be surprised if he 'chats' on irc using a mic
16:49:53  <xiong> TrueBrain, I can't tell if you're serious. I do spend quite a bit of time reading docs. They're not always clear and there's no way for me to clarify them without understanding.
16:50:14  <andythenorth_> xiong: it's max distance along any edge of the station's bounding box as far as I know
16:50:24  <andythenorth_> try it with rail stations on very flat land
16:50:27  <xiong> I don't know how to prove that I study hard. I'm not going to come here and lecture you on what I do know correctly.
16:50:28  <andythenorth_> it will become obvious
16:50:36  <dihedral> stop feeding him! :-P
16:51:05  <dihedral> heck - i'd be surprised he he did not send a letter to <keyboard manufacturer> complaining about the layout
16:51:05  <xiong> andythenorth_, That is a third interpretation, again, twice as large as the narrowest. Thank you.
16:51:08  <TrueBrain> 'lecture' :D Haha :)
16:51:18  <xiong> What is funny?
16:51:34  <xiong> Should I have said "recite"?
16:51:59  <TrueBrain> the word 'lecture' implies you are superior :) I think you picked the wrong word :)
16:52:48  <xiong> Um, I said I would not lecture. The word *does* imply superiority. I'm a novice, therefore it would be silly for me to lecture.
16:52:51  <dihedral> if there is a large silence, it is because xiong here is typing up a reply :-P
16:53:34  <TrueBrain> # ITS SO FLUFFY!!! IM GONNA DIE!!!
16:54:17  <xiong> I think you may be taking what I say in an ironic or sarcastic vein. Please be assured that I hardly ever speak in this way. It's hard enough for me to be clear; I don't willfully obfuscate.
16:54:34  <TrueBrain> hahaha :D
16:54:41  <xiong> ?
16:54:47  <TrueBrain> do we still have that quote site?
16:54:48  * andythenorth_ has a question
16:54:53  <andythenorth_> can I ask it?
16:54:54  <andythenorth_> frosch123: would rv-wagons be reversible
16:54:55  <andythenorth_> ?
16:55:03  <dihedral> TrueBrain, yep :-D
16:55:07  <andythenorth_> reversable /s
16:55:10  <TrueBrain> dihedral: url?
16:55:18  <dihedral>
16:55:48  <Terkhen> I did not know we had one of these :)
16:55:50  <TrueBrain> I love the Top #1 :D
16:56:08  <dihedral> TrueBrain, please stay here for a bit, this is getting my hopes high that it might be a lovely evening afterall
16:56:19  <TrueBrain> I am always here
16:56:22  <TrueBrain> I just try to avoid talking
16:56:46  <dihedral> teach that to skippy here
16:58:03  <frosch123> andythenorth_: what? you mean like you can reverse single non-articulated rail vehicles?
16:58:14  <frosch123> is there any point in that?
16:58:52  <TrueBrain> @topic
16:58:52  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 1.0.4 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only
16:58:58  <TrueBrain> stupid client .. why don't you just show it :(
16:59:25  <andythenorth_> frosch123: I don't think there's any point in 99% of cases
16:59:37  <andythenorth_> and the 1% doesn't matter
17:00:08  <andythenorth_> influences spec though?
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17:00:51  <[twisti]> something is wrong with town growth i think
17:01:02  <[twisti]> i have 6 busy stations in a town thats a (city)
17:01:04  <andythenorth_> [twisti]: in what respect?
17:01:08  <[twisti]> and its population keeps going down
17:01:13  <andythenorth_> what year?
17:01:16  <[twisti]> started with 600, then 500, now its 380
17:01:21  <[twisti]> 1952
17:01:24  <andythenorth_> hmm
17:01:49  <andythenorth_> did your town start with a lot of big office buildings that have been rebuilt to houses?
17:01:52  <[twisti]> and of course i didnt crush any buildings or anything
17:02:01  <[twisti]> no idea, i cant really tell them apart
17:02:18  <andythenorth_> load a savegame from when you started and look :P
17:02:34  <[twisti]> no autosave
17:02:41  <[twisti]> it annoyed me and im just experimenting
17:03:15  <andythenorth_> I think that there's something odd about map generator building lots of large buildings in towns....when you start providing service, they quickly get rebuilt to houses
17:03:19  <andythenorth_> so the population drops
17:03:29  <[twisti]> will it go up again eventually ?
17:03:49  <andythenorth_> try it and see :P
17:03:51  <andythenorth_> should do
17:03:57  <andythenorth_> happened to me in 1870
17:04:07  <andythenorth_> 1952 seems a bit late for this to be happening
17:04:20  <andythenorth_> do some tests, verify it ;)
17:04:31  <dihedral> TrueBrain, you should post the qdb link back in here, it'll make him go nuts
17:04:32  <[twisti]> i think youre right
17:04:33  <TrueBrain>
17:04:34  <TrueBrain> :D
17:04:37  <TrueBrain> was just about to :)
17:04:40  <[twisti]> i fastforwarded it a bit and they came back
17:04:43  <TrueBrain> well, not for the latter reason
17:04:47  <TrueBrain> but it is just briliant :)
17:05:31  <[twisti]> still not up to the original size but its building more tiny houses
17:05:40  <[twisti]> you might be rigth about those office buildings
17:06:19  <andythenorth_> [twisti]: here's what happened in my game:
17:06:20  <andythenorth_>
17:06:23  <andythenorth_>
17:06:28  <[twisti]> haha
17:06:54  <[twisti]> seems like what happened to me
17:07:11  <andythenorth_> I read the town generator code, but I couldn't figure out what causes this
17:07:19  <andythenorth_> it's slightly annoying :P
17:09:01  <andythenorth_> [twisti]: I didn't file a bug
17:09:08  <andythenorth_> you should though ;)
17:09:44  <[twisti]> im busy watching my city grow on fast forward :p
17:09:50  <[twisti]> up to 700!
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17:16:10  <xiong> [twisti] Interesting problem. Dunno; I put 4 pax stops in a 1 K city and ran 4-horse carriages around; 10 of them. Then I went to work on freight. Now the city is up to 12.5 K from 1850 to 1861.
17:16:48  <dihedral> TrueBrain, there is your lecture ;-)
17:17:17  <xiong> Other nearby towns started smaller and, not being "cities", wouldn't grow as fast anyway, I guess. And I've done nothing at all except the same scheme of 4 pax stations and about 8 carriages, plus some road work.
17:17:51  <TrueBrain> dihedral: don't bash (that often)
17:18:34  <xiong> I think the road work is key. Wiki downplays it but it seems really to help. Towns can be aggressive building road but they make stupid decisions and never seem to flatten land. I remove obvious 2-tile obstructions and join corners; it's cheap.
17:19:17  <dihedral> TrueBrain, i am not, he has me on ignore :-D
17:19:24  <xiong> [twisti] I have never seen that sort of pop drop. I will be on the lookout for it later.
17:19:31  <dihedral> so you cannot call it bashing if he is not aware of it
17:21:04  <xiong> If I understand you right, you went into a small city that already had a number of tall buildings and they... built down?
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17:21:32  <TrueBrain> but yeah, dihedral, it is a PeterT in the make
17:21:41  <TrueBrain> but he outgrown it
17:21:43  <TrueBrain> so ..
17:22:53  <[twisti]> xiong: im not sure. i looked for a very specific city to test something with and had to generate new maps a few times to get it
17:23:05  <[twisti]> small (~600), but (City), and out in the open
17:23:30  <[twisti]> i built a train ring around it to make it grow fast, without demolishing anything, and then it went down to maybe 300 pop at its lowest
17:23:34  <[twisti]> and then came back up
17:24:28  <[twisti]> and now its happily growing
17:26:27  <xiong> Interesting, [twisti].
17:26:56  <xiong> Did you peek at something to tell that it was a city and not an ordinary town?
17:27:05  <[twisti]> yes
17:27:09  <[twisti]> i clicked the name
17:27:19  <[twisti]> i thought that was the only way to know
17:28:27  <xiong> Oh, that was stupid of me. I've been looking at those windows for days now and ignoring the (City) label entirely, because I thought it was obvious from the initial size.
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17:29:41  <xiong> Before the game starts, it must do some sort of preparation to build up Cities. They don't just grow faster; they start bigger. So, I never thought to notice. There's so much else going on.
17:29:55  <xiong> The weakness of a narrow focus. :(
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17:36:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r21015 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4176]: don't let the resize button go past the bottom of the screen
17:37:06  <avdg> hmmm
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17:40:24  <guru3> openttd really is great
17:40:32  <guru3> i think it's just opened an original tt save of mine
17:41:06  <guru3> "Flick, Flack, & Co."
17:41:14  <guru3> i do believe i named it after my watch
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17:43:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21016 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt serbian.txt):
17:43:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:43:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by tonny
17:43:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 3 changes by etran
17:46:52  <Alberth> guru3: yes, it loads all original games
17:46:57  <guru3> i had no idea
17:47:04  <guru3> this is really making me want to get at my old zip disks
17:47:15  <guru3> which should have my oldest remaining tycoon games
17:48:02  <guru3> but they're at home :(
17:48:15  <Alberth> something  to look forward to :)
17:48:31  <guru3> not looking forward so much to having to find a zip drive -_-
17:48:48  <guru3> because that could be harder
17:49:30  <guru3> or god forbind i might have to go through floppies
17:49:42  <guru3> *forbid
17:49:46  <Alberth> I have thrown them all away
17:49:59  <guru3> wish i still had some of the tape backups of the early years :/
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17:50:29  <guru3> i remember a particular series of game that i had so much money in it wrapped around
17:50:55  <Alberth> that got fixed in OpenTTD :)
17:51:29  <guru3> i know
17:51:37  <guru3> having 4 billion in funds wouldn't be an issue anymore
17:52:51  <Alberth> only an issue in the sense that it spoils the game
17:53:05  <guru3> well i always had wanted to see what would happen next
17:53:11  <guru3> but i would go out of business too fast
17:53:59  <guru3> all the save games ive got here now are from the time when i was into creating small islands and doing really compact transport networks
17:54:43  <Alberth> Hmm, I remember that was such a scenario
17:55:28  <guru3> i created a bunch of them
17:55:43  <guru3> although i don't remember there being electric rail in the original
17:55:47  <guru3> but that's what this island is
17:56:01  <guru3> SH30s
17:57:05  <Rubidium> yeah, sorry for that... the savegame load code gives you free electric rail
17:57:13  <guru3> well you know
17:57:30  <guru3> when you haven't played a save game in a decade you expect things to be as you left them! ;)
17:58:07  <Rubidium> well, the choice is between changing rail type and having stuck trains because of missing catenary
17:58:22  <guru3> makes sense to me
17:58:37  <guru3> after all, it's 2002 and i've got 507 million dollars in funds
17:58:41  <guru3> i could have afforded it anywya
17:58:48  <Rubidium> having a slightly changed but working savegame is probably favourable over a non-working savegame where you have to do the thing the savegame load did to fix it
17:59:39  <guru3> true, true, and i do appreciate being able to see the trains go
17:59:48  <guru3> this is a long lost memory here
18:00:01  <guru3> i mean, i store wore an analog watch when i did this game
18:00:06  <guru3> *still wore
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18:10:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21017 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp widget.cpp): -Doc: Small fixes (by Krille).
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18:21:51  <[twisti]> is there a way to replace all my locomotives of one type with another type ? or do i have to do it manually ?
18:22:18  <Alberth> yes
18:22:41  <[twisti]> found it just as you said it ;)
18:22:57  <Alberth> it's called autoreplace :)
18:23:17  * andythenorth_ waves flag in direction of consists
18:23:43  <Alberth> you cracked that problem too?
18:25:56  <andythenorth_> not bloody likely :P
18:26:15  <andythenorth_> not even written ideas
18:26:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21018 /trunk/src/ (main_gui.cpp viewport.cpp viewport_type.h): -Doc: Add Doxygen comments to some function.
18:26:23  <andythenorth_> they seem too...obvious in some ways
18:27:05  <Alberth> just to be clear, a 'consist' is a sequence of vehicles in a train, right?
18:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- apparently they're getting further with this "microsoft store" idea
18:27:26  <andythenorth_> Alberth: yes
18:27:40  <andythenorth_> and vehicles could be told to try and match to a consist
18:27:40  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I am so happy not use that platform :)
18:28:37  <andythenorth_> the GUI for managing a consist would be similar to a depot
18:28:48  <andythenorth_> problems
18:28:53  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you are aware that you rent current win* versions from MS?
18:28:56  <andythenorth_> (1) it's not any specific depot
18:29:03  <andythenorth_> (2) 'buy' wouldn't be quite right
18:29:11  <andythenorth_> (3) not sure how to create a new consist
18:29:16  <[twisti]> 2 of my jubilee's just wont replace
18:29:19  <andythenorth_> (4) where does user manage consists
18:29:23  <[twisti]> they keep driving past the depot
18:29:36  <Alberth> [twisti]: send them to a depot explicitly
18:29:36  <andythenorth_> [twisti]: put a PBS signal in front of the depot
18:30:04  <Alberth> or remove all tracks not leading to a depot :p
18:30:05  <[twisti]> meh, they complain about being unable to find a path
18:30:10  <[twisti]> but theres definitely a path
18:30:18  <planetmaker> but only with turning around
18:30:25  <[twisti]> nope
18:30:27  <planetmaker> which is not a path in that sense
18:30:36  <planetmaker> or wrong signals
18:30:38  <Alberth> if the depot is in PBS block, you need to send them BEFORE they enter that block
18:30:47  <[twisti]> no signals
18:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, i'm not aware of anything win*
18:31:08  <Alberth> good :)
18:31:43  <Alberth> andythenorth_: ad 4: of actual consists, same place they do now, I think
18:33:04  <andythenorth_> nowhere?
18:33:08  <Alberth> depot
18:33:13  <andythenorth_> any depot?
18:33:21  <andythenorth_> it's just an extra button?
18:33:33  <Alberth> without group stuff, yes any depot
18:34:59  <Alberth> in a group, with one or more consists, I think you want to replace/renew those. I was thinking of being able to drag the existing vehicles and/or drag new ones from a 'buy' list.
18:35:01  <andythenorth_> Alberth: in my mind / plan, groups are utterly decoupled from consists
18:35:28  <Alberth> no replacements/renewing through groups?
18:35:31  <andythenorth_> apart from one action, which changes the consist for all vehicles in the group
18:35:54  <andythenorth_> I would envisage the consist for a vehicle is a property or pointer
18:36:11  <andythenorth_> changing the consist for all vehicles in the group just changes the value of that property or pointer
18:36:16  <andythenorth_> nothing else
18:36:24  <andythenorth_> groups == mass actions to change props of vehicles
18:36:46  <Alberth> no depot visiting?
18:37:00  <Alberth> ie like replacement works now
18:37:26  <andythenorth_> yes, same as replacement works now
18:37:30  <andythenorth_> everything nearly the same
18:37:59  <andythenorth_> but when visiting depot, instead of replace / renew, match exactly to a specific consist
18:38:26  <Alberth> I am not sure what 'change a pointer for all vehicles in the group' means then
18:38:35  <andythenorth_> probably bad use of words by me
18:38:36  <andythenorth_> changing the consist for a group would work much like current changing auto-replace for group does; i.e. player explicitly chooses
18:38:39  <andythenorth_> hmm
18:38:43  <andythenorth_> pictures are better :D
18:38:47  <Alberth> yep, 'match exactly to a specific consist' is good
18:39:22  <andythenorth_> at any time, each vehicle is trying to match exactly to either 1 or 0 consists
18:39:24  <andythenorth_> nothing else
18:39:49  <andythenorth_> I wondered if it could be done by pointer magic, but I'd better stay out of things I don't understand
18:40:17  <andythenorth_> i.e. vehicle has a pointer to a vehicle to try and match consist with
18:40:22  <andythenorth_> that would go to self (no change)
18:40:29  <andythenorth_> or to a virtual vehicle in a pool somewhere
18:40:50  <andythenorth_> but I can't code so no idea if this is pony crap :P
18:41:29  <xiong> Okay, I think another bulb glows over my head, dimly but distinct. Please check me: Path signals are not so much used in combination with block signals, including pre-signals, as an alternative to them? Most layouts use either the four block or the two path types exclusively?
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18:42:19  <andythenorth_> I use path signals only
18:42:41  <xiong> Thanks andythenorth_, that's one vote.
18:42:50  <Alberth> I use path signals at more complicated junctions, typically stations, and block signals everywhere else
18:43:11  <xiong> Thanks Alberth. That's what I've been doing, more or less.
18:43:27  <Alberth> but indeed, each block should be entered by only one type of signals
18:43:33  <xiong> Except that I've been pre-signalling stations.
18:44:02  <Alberth> that's fine too, just more complicated, and less efficient :)
18:44:46  <xiong> And I think I've heard from other Old Heads that they use block signals exclusively.
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18:45:19  <xiong> I have just about stopped using entry signals entirely, on the theory that a combo is always okay for entry.
18:45:30  <Alberth> oh, the original game only had block signals, you can get very far with them
18:45:56  <xiong> Only standard block? Or pre-signals, too?
18:46:06  * Alberth looks what 'combo' means
18:46:14  <dihedral> path signals dont do on priorities
18:46:17  <Alberth> no, only standard block signal
18:46:43  <xiong> Um, that might make things tough at yards. :X
18:47:45  <Alberth> combo is intended to be used on exist from a pre-signalled block to another such block
18:48:47  <Alberth> as long as there is not too much traffic, a simple block signal works fine
18:49:21  <xiong> Right; that's what combo is *for*. I just said that I've been using it wherever I would normally use an entry signal. Seems to work just fine.
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18:49:49  <andythenorth_> path signals take the worry out of signalling
18:49:52  <andythenorth_> they mostly just work
18:49:58  <andythenorth_> trains do get stuck with them
18:50:18  <andythenorth_> especially if you're trying single-track railroading, or highly congested double track mains
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18:50:33  <xiong> A pre-signal is still a block signal. But they interact. If there's no other pre-signal in front of the combo, it acts just as it would if it were an entry.
18:51:11  <Wolf01> hello
18:51:17  <avdg> hi
18:51:18  * andythenorth_ doesn't worry about it too much
18:51:19  <xiong> andythenorth_, Yes, I can see that path signals can simplify matters.
18:51:31  <andythenorth_> eventually it's easier to just build ships :D
18:51:51  <xiong> You have the luxury of not worrying. Once you settle on a strategy that works for you, you don't have to think about it.
18:51:53  <andythenorth_> ships have effectively oo capacity on any given route
18:51:56  <Wolf01> airports are better, you don't need buoys
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18:52:19  <avdg> but they are limited around 5k max
18:52:39  <xiong> Ships are too damn slow. My docks are full of angry people complaining about excessive headwait.
18:52:40  <avdg> each month
18:53:56  <Wolf01> ships are slow indeed, that's why we need to raise their speed limit, faster hovercrafts, idrofoils and ekranoplanes
18:53:59  <xiong> I had an Oil Wells disappear, with regular tanker service. Wasn't producing enough to fill each ship even a quarter full but wanted more service.
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18:54:43  <Wolf01> just make the tankers to start without full load and use a lot of them :P
18:54:54  <xiong> Mind, I was letting the ships leave 3/4 empty. The wells were still displeased enough to shut.
18:55:14  <Alberth> oil wells always shutdown eventually
18:55:34  <xiong> The line would be a dead loss. It was losing money anyway.
18:55:44  <andythenorth_> airports block, they have limited capacity
18:55:53  <xiong> Um. Well, another reason to load FIRS. By default, industries never close.
18:56:25  <dihedral> many ships - lots of em
18:56:33  <xiong> You are still threatened with closure but the axe never falls.
18:56:57  <andythenorth_> xiong: does FIRS show closure messages?
18:57:02  <xiong> The Oil Wells disaster was without FIRS. \
18:57:51  <xiong> andythenorth_, Dunno; I have almost all messages go into summary. Don't think so. But clicking up the info on an unserved industry still threatens closure in X months if not served.
18:58:12  <andythenorth_> yes - there are one or two industries that show that message
18:58:18  <andythenorth_> I don't think they actually will close
18:58:30  <xiong> Not under FIRS by default.
18:58:36  <andythenorth_> code I haven't finished yet :D
18:58:58  <Alberth> xiong: you can easily set a parameter to change that :p
18:59:25  <xiong> Thanks, Alberth. I'll get right on that.
18:59:47  <Alberth> (in FIRS, I mean)
18:59:51  <xiong> ^ Now that *was* sarcasm. I'm not incapable of it; just leery.
19:00:34  <dihedral> cannot stand this guy ^^
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19:00:51  <xiong> I totally freak out when an industry shuts down just as I get service working for it. Three times so far, in my very limited experience. FIRS all the way for me, now.
19:01:13  <xiong> BTW, FIRS++ # for just about everything!
19:01:28  <xiong> Also, ISRS++
19:01:46  <Alberth> ISRS?
19:02:07  <xiong> Industrial Stations Renewal Set.
19:02:09  * Alberth needs a faster compiler
19:02:36  <xiong> Not entirely finished, methinks; but then, what is?
19:02:38  <Alberth> oh, never bothered much about nice eye candy-ish things
19:03:18  <xiong> Not just eye candy; the stations are functional. If you choose the right platforms, you can see cargo accumulate.
19:04:05  <Alberth> I just check whether there is a train for each cargo that I load from a station. If not, I need more trains
19:04:23  <xiong> I grant that much is just eye candy. But I'm not a totally operational person. I appreciate good looks when they're cheap.
19:05:14  <xiong> Even the static features of the various types of platform are useful to me. By putting in industrial platforms of one type or another, I'm reminded what a station does.
19:06:31  <xiong> It's useful, too, to have variation; makes it easier for things to be organized in my mind. I try to build my pax stations with some variation, too. Then, when I'm staring at one, I have some way to access my memories of what was going on with it last and what I'd hoped it would do by now or later.
19:07:56  <xiong> I never object to a pleasant or nifty surface appearance when it is in harmony with underlying function. What I object to -- violently -- is slick appearance that disguises crappy underlying function.
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19:18:59  * andythenorth_ pub
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19:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> in the past ~2 years i have only _once_ had a use for a non-pbs signal
19:32:28  <peter1138> hear hear
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20:50:34  <TrueBrain>
20:50:36  <TrueBrain> jamjam
20:50:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21019 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp tilearea_type.h): -Add: Use center of industry to focus on in the industry gui.
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20:56:06  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21020 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp viewport_func.h waypoint_gui.cpp): -Add: Use center of waypoint in waypoint gui, if available.
20:56:36  <Alberth> the CIA is not so fast today :)
20:58:23  <TrueBrain> he had a hard and long day
20:58:25  <TrueBrain> give him a break
20:58:27  <TrueBrain> :p
21:03:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21021 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp waypoint_gui.cpp): -Add [FS#4171]: Center industry gui and waypoint gui after resize (partly by Krille).
21:12:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21022 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Add (r21021): Missed recentering of a town gui viewport after a resize.
21:12:40  <Alberth> good night
21:12:57  <Wolf01> 'night Alberth
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21:20:37  <Terkhen> good night
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21:26:10  <Zuu> TrueBrain: The big mac seems to mostly resable the advert of your comparison :-)
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21:46:50  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:47:04  <andythenorth_> I come
21:47:06  <andythenorth_> he goes
21:51:59  <andythenorth_>
21:52:18  <Eddi|zuHause> of course they forgot the most important food: the Döner Kebab
21:55:47  <frosch123> night
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