Config
Log for #openttd on 2nd November 2010:
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02:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i checked the (barely documented) var B2 (== v->vehstatus), and in bit 0 of that it stores VS_HIDDEN. but how do i access this var from the adjacent wagon [not front engine]?
02:58:10  <Sevalecan> does amount of passengers affect how much a city grows?
02:58:36  * Sevalecan looks at the wiki :P
03:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no
03:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the only variable that affects town growth is number of serviced stations in the last ~20 days
03:02:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (so 5 bus stops is better than one train station)
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04:44:45  <planetmaker> [05:42]	<Eddi|zuHause>	so... i checked the (barely documented) var B2 (== v->vehstatus), and in bit 0 of that it stores VS_HIDDEN. but how do i access this var from the adjacent wagon [not front engine]? <-- IIRC you don't access any variable from other vehicles except the front engine
04:45:01  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the only thing you can access are random bits
04:45:27  <planetmaker> good morning #openttd also
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06:43:04  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:56:23  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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07:26:07  <Qantourisc> Silly question: wouldn't 2 engine increase reliability ? :)
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07:32:27  <planetmaker> Qantourisc: no
07:33:00  <planetmaker> it would decrease reliability
07:33:07  <planetmaker> one engine: reliability p
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07:34:02  <planetmaker> --> chance to stay w/o break down: p
07:34:26  <planetmaker> --> two engines: chance to stay w/o break down: p^2. And as p in 0...1 follows p^2 < p
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08:48:26  <norbert79> Morning Guest1600 :}
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09:08:58  <dihedral> regarding http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4197
09:09:06  <dihedral> is it even possible to implement that easily?
09:09:51  <dihedral> i.e. by adding penalty to 'whatever imposes a limit'
09:10:15  <dihedral> i just do not know if anybody would dare to dig into yapf :-P
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09:15:55  <norbert79> dihedral: Idea sounds good, but this has to be handled like the signals...
09:16:14  <dihedral> ?
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09:16:33  <dihedral> care to elaborate?
09:16:58  <norbert79> dihedral: If the speed limiter sign is placed, then from that point on every track has to have that speed, but if there is a speed limiter, and another sign 5 tiles after lifting up the rules, then it's like a signal after one signal
09:17:07  <norbert79> huhh, how shall I explain :)
09:17:45  <dihedral> i was not talking about signals :-P
09:17:48  <norbert79> I know
09:18:03  <norbert79> but the same methodology should be also possible for this feature request
09:18:19  <dihedral> and i was not talking about imposing the speed limit, i was more thinking of imposing a penalty,
09:18:27  <norbert79> instead of having 'signals' blocking some parts, they should only define the speed limit like for bridges
09:18:40  <dihedral> which would be a way to stop fast trains passing a marker for lower max speeds
09:19:02  <norbert79> dihedral: Well, how is this being achived in case of bridges?
09:19:03  <dihedral> and vice versa
09:19:18  <dihedral> bridges are something completely different
09:19:19  <norbert79> bridges also do slow down trains
09:19:23  <dihedral> and have a defined beginning and end
09:19:36  <dihedral> and are more like tunnels
09:19:47  <norbert79> söo you see an issue while combining the bridge methoodolgy with the signal way of doing things?
09:19:52  <norbert79> -ö
09:20:16  <dihedral> no
09:20:54  <dihedral> say you have some sort of marker, whatever that be
09:21:05  <norbert79> yes
09:21:16  <dihedral> defining a 'max speed' at marker, which has an affect on the penalty in yapf
09:21:20  <dihedral> just like stations
09:21:37  <norbert79> Ah, so you were more like thinking about the coding part
09:21:40  <dihedral> if the station is longer / shorter than the train itself, it imposes a certain penalty
09:21:48  <dihedral> thus trains try to find the route with less penalty
09:22:05  <dihedral> norbert79, i do not play the game ;-)
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09:22:20  <norbert79> dihedral: Ok, now THATS surprises me :D
09:22:25  <dihedral> why?
09:22:34  <norbert79> I thought whoever codes also plays
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09:22:46  <dihedral> i bet you will find more people who code and do not play :-)
09:22:55  <norbert79> can be :)
09:23:22  <dihedral> i test what i code, yes, but i do not play it :-)
09:24:21  <norbert79> I am more a gamer, than a coder
09:24:41  <norbert79> but I do not play everything, my favorites are life-like games and strategy
09:25:29  <norbert79> (What I mean, that I love an FPS, if it has the most real sorrounding, or focuses on reality, real circumstances)
09:25:35  <norbert79> e.g
09:25:52  <norbert79> Like Swat 4... That rocks, just started playing it
09:27:24  <Noldo> you are still alive?
09:27:39  <norbert79> Noldo: I wasn't talking about the Matrix :D
09:29:26  <norbert79> Yet I would try that for sure, except the dying part :D
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09:43:48  <dihedral> i prefer coding :-P
09:44:00  <dihedral> the only thing i do 'play' every once in a bit is FlightGear
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09:51:18  <dihedral> hello planetmaker
09:51:19  <dihedral> :-)
09:52:59  <planetmaker> moin dihedral
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11:39:18  <kenneth> hello
11:40:11  <planetmaker> hey
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11:54:02  <xiong> I seem to have returned.
11:56:52  <xiong> San Francisco sports fans are... celebrating... by burning mattresses in the street and, in at least one instance, walking on an overhead power line.
11:57:13  <SpComb> it's not about the sport it's about the celebrating
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12:07:05  <xiong> SpComb++
12:08:00  <SpComb> pfft, hardly that insightful
12:08:27  <SpComb> I did just join a project's channel to constructively flame them, that was insightful
12:22:19  <xiong> 'Constructively flame' -- do not attempt this at home.
12:22:32  <xiong> Professional driver, closed course.
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12:53:09  <Belugas> hello
12:54:04  <planetmaker> salut sir Belugas
12:54:43  <Belugas> ben lbonjour toai la...
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12:55:49  <Belugas> mmh..
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14:08:29  <kenneth> how do you run multiple instances of openttd on a debian box
14:08:34  <kenneth> can i use the same install
14:08:35  <kenneth> with
14:08:40  <Spoons> new lines
14:08:41  <Spoons> everywhere.
14:08:43  <kenneth> openttd -D -c openttd1.cfg
14:08:45  *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
14:08:48  <kenneth> openttd -D -c openttd2.cfg
14:08:51  <kenneth> and define seperate ports ?
14:08:53  <ccfreak2k> FauxFaux, I know people who do worse.
14:09:20  <planetmaker> kenneth, yes
14:09:28  <planetmaker> that's the way to go
14:09:40  <kenneth> cool
14:09:48  <kenneth> im pretty sure it threw a wobbly when i tried that last night
14:10:05  <kenneth> ah i think i know whats up,
14:10:14  <planetmaker> the server? :-P
14:10:16  <kenneth> if 2  servers have the same host name will one die on advertise broadcast
14:10:25  <planetmaker> yes
14:10:37  <planetmaker> possibly. You want unique names and port
14:10:41  <kenneth> got startup scripts that define the server name
14:10:47  <kenneth> and one set of scripts per install ?
14:11:08  <planetmaker> the server name is given in the cfg afaik
14:11:50  <kenneth> yes but when game quits
14:11:57  <kenneth> it strips the " from the .cfg
14:11:59  <kenneth> so
14:12:06  <kenneth> server_name = "Cool Server" becomes
14:12:12  <kenneth> server_name = Cool Server
14:12:22  <kenneth> so i define the server_name is on_server.scr
14:12:33  <kenneth> because i am mad
14:12:56  <planetmaker> You want the name to contain the quotation marks?
14:14:01  <kenneth> yup
14:14:08  <kenneth> suppose could make the cfg read only
14:15:09  <planetmaker> hm.. yet another name which tries to get to the top of the list by using non-letter characters ;-)
14:15:21  <kenneth> i didnt want to own up to that
14:15:30  <kenneth> i assume that is highly frowned upon
14:15:48  <planetmaker> look at the list - half the servers do that.
14:15:56  <planetmaker> kind of an endless race
14:17:07  <kenneth> oh well
14:17:45  <kenneth> im just a naive simpleton, with 2 debian boxes, 100mb/s connection, and a lot of spare time and interest
14:17:53  <planetmaker> :-)
14:18:19  <kenneth> ive messed around with the source already in visual C++ and on the debian box
14:18:31  <kenneth> so eventually i would like to compile my own custom server that talks to vanilla clients
14:18:32  <planetmaker> a good server is mostly characterised by an admin who's around and the ingenuity of the maps :-)
14:19:29  <Rubidium> luckily over half of the servers have no players, so no need for admins :)
14:20:23  <planetmaker> might be related :-)
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14:20:59  <planetmaker> our Welcome server was funnily immediately populated - and seems to keep being populated
14:21:32  <kenneth> well i play as much as i can
14:21:37  <kenneth> and have a few people that keep coming back
14:21:37  <planetmaker> :-)
14:21:46  <planetmaker> that's good.
14:21:50  <kenneth> and one guy that is so keen has decided he wants to do his own config, grfs and save
14:21:54  <kenneth> so im happy to host it
14:21:59  <kenneth> get a little community going :)
14:23:17  <planetmaker> I might be biased, but I'd consider it nice, if there were another well-played server which were NOT modified :-)
14:24:35  <kenneth> well the one thats on now is unmodified
14:24:43  <kenneth> i personally cant be bothered with grfs
14:24:52  <kenneth> play the game the way it was meant to be played :D
14:25:01  <planetmaker> They make for easier modification than patching the binaries
14:25:46  <kenneth> what grf or saves or scenarios ?
14:25:48  <planetmaker> (besides being the 'officially accepted' way to modify gameplay - in a sense that we can use resulting bug reports :-)
14:26:08  <kenneth> which is the officially accepted way sorry ?
14:26:18  <planetmaker> ^ talking about using grfs
14:27:21  <norbert79> GRF-s are good. It extends the game in a way, which the original game can be still followed well, and does not require patching. Like consider house GRF-s
14:27:27  <norbert79> or new planes
14:27:33  <planetmaker> you'll be amazed what amount of variety to game play they offer
14:27:35  <norbert79> but it can give additional functionality too
14:27:52  <norbert79> and it's challenging creating them too
14:27:57  <planetmaker> ^ :-P
14:28:49  *** SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-22-216.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd
14:29:18  <planetmaker> heya SmatZ :-)
14:29:26  <norbert79> Good day SmatZ
14:29:32  <SmatZ> hello planetmaker and norbert79
14:29:35  <SmatZ> and hello all :)
14:32:40  <kenneth> can you create basic game modes with grfs ?
14:32:47  <kenneth> i thought grf was just graphic sets
14:33:27  <planetmaker> ha! That's _so_ wrong :-)
14:33:54  <planetmaker> You can re-define behaviour of vehicles. Of houses. Of industries. Create new rail track types
14:34:01  <planetmaker> Change building costs
14:34:05  <planetmaker> Modify snow lines
14:34:13  <kenneth> cool
14:34:25  <norbert79> but that takes lot of time understanding GRF-s :)
14:34:34  <kenneth> if i wanted the server to announce who was leading at the beginning of each year, a GRF couldnt do that ?
14:34:47  <norbert79> if GRFS would be graphic only, it would be enough having one PNG file placed, which replaces some graphic, right? :)
14:34:48  <kenneth> is a GRF C++ /
14:35:03  <planetmaker> no
14:35:07  <norbert79> kenneth: Thats more a job for the network scripts
14:35:15  <planetmaker> it's written in their own language.
14:35:19  <kenneth> you can acheive that in scripting ?
14:35:22  <planetmaker> But... have you never looked at the online content?
14:35:28  <kenneth> on server start or on player connect
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14:35:32  <kenneth> you couldnt announce with scripts surely
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14:35:42  <planetmaker> wb, SmatZ_ :-)
14:35:56  <kenneth> planetmaker, quick question on the multiple instances
14:35:58  <kenneth> on debian
14:35:58  <norbert79> kenneth: GRFs are more modifying the gameplay, while what you are looking for is something, that servers use
14:36:06  <kenneth> ah ok
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14:36:25  <kenneth> can you run 2 servers from 2 server installs on devian?
14:36:37  <planetmaker> why not?
14:36:43  <kenneth> mv ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg ~/.openttd/openttd2.cfg
14:36:50  <norbert79> kenneth: Why doing so? Why don't you use the same binary?
14:36:56  <norbert79> ah, yes, thats possible
14:36:58  <kenneth> seperate scripts
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14:37:06  <kenneth> if i use the same binary, it loads scripts from that dir ?
14:37:17  <kenneth> cant define scripts in the startup switches
14:37:25  <planetmaker> kenneth, we have a separate directory for each server we run
14:37:32  <planetmaker> with its own local openttd.cfg
14:37:41  <planetmaker> where also the name, port, etc are defined
14:37:43  <kenneth> but you have 3 locations ?
14:37:44  <norbert79> planetmaker: Guess it's more like for easier use
14:37:54  <planetmaker> yes. Easier to run different versions :-)
14:38:01  <norbert79> ah, yes, the patched ones :)
14:38:11  <planetmaker> or nightly vs. stable
14:38:17  <norbert79> genau...
14:38:20  <norbert79> Eaxactly
14:38:22  <planetmaker> or stable vs. testing :-)
14:38:26  <norbert79> Damn, been a long day
14:38:28  <planetmaker> No need to bring patches into game :-)
14:38:33  <kenneth> you have /usr/games/openttd <-- binary and then you have /usr/share/openttd/ and finally the config in ~
14:38:41  <planetmaker> kenneth, I don't
14:38:48  <kenneth> what system are you on ?
14:38:52  <norbert79> kenneth: I prefer having everything in one directory only
14:38:55  <kenneth> see i installed from a debian package
14:38:59  <planetmaker> I have ~/svn-public/...
14:39:04  <planetmaker> ~/svn-stable/...
14:39:10  <planetmaker> local checkouts in the user dir
14:39:20  <planetmaker> installing it to system wide dirs is not needed.
14:39:22  <kenneth> i dont know if im going mad
14:39:31  <kenneth> i am going mad
14:39:32  <kenneth> hahaha
14:39:42  <norbert79> and I have the game on my Pendrive, and everything is in \Games\OpenTTD, and the rest at their own places, like data, gm, etc... I have all Linux binaries copied within that one directory, like back in DOS times
14:40:04  <kenneth> right so if i download the debian binary for binary, and then i can extract and duplicate it
14:40:10  <planetmaker> yes
14:40:11  <norbert79> so you just go inside that directory, and start off the right binary
14:40:15  <kenneth> like ~/server1 ~/server2
14:40:21  <planetmaker> yes
14:40:37  <kenneth> im going to have to remove the deb file installed
14:40:44  <planetmaker> you don't have to
14:40:47  <kenneth> its where it is because i installed it from deb
14:40:57  <kenneth> i would rather my system was clean :P
14:41:11  <kenneth> suppose i could just copy it all back into my home dir
14:41:17  <planetmaker> :-) That's a 'nice-to-have' but not a prerequisite ;-)
14:41:19  <norbert79> kenneth: I prefer games stored in their own directory, and not spread through the system too...
14:41:37  <kenneth> three locations for openttd is a bit upsettings
14:41:47  <norbert79> kenneth: Thats how .NIX systems work
14:41:50  <norbert79> *nix
14:41:57  <norbert79> Unix, Linux...
14:42:11  <norbert79> but Windows 7 isn't that different neither by now :)
14:42:11  <planetmaker> *BSD :-P
14:42:12  <kenneth> do you ever find your self sitting at the bash prompt thinking, stuff modern computing this is easier
14:42:24  <planetmaker> yes
14:42:26  <norbert79> planetmaker: BSD is a *nix system, a UNIX clone too ;-)
14:42:39  <planetmaker> hm, not quite
14:42:40  <kenneth> i love debian based systems
14:42:44  <kenneth> mainly for dpkg and apt
14:42:54  <kenneth> i just install debian miniminal
14:42:57  <kenneth> install top/htop
14:43:04  <kenneth> and remove all services i wont be using using apt
14:43:20  <kenneth> literally bare bones system with only ottd
14:43:29  <norbert79> planetmaker: Wahahaha, just waited for this argument... HAH, take a look at this: http://levenez.com/unix/
14:43:30  <kenneth> oh and my crontab
14:43:57  <planetmaker> hehe @ norbert79 :-)
14:44:28  <kenneth> right off to play with puTTy
14:44:50  <planetmaker> where do you need putty?
14:45:08  <planetmaker> just ssh at the console in the computer in front of you and off you go, connecting to your server ;-)
14:45:10  * norbert79 also considers on grabbing a router for future use, having type N wifi and being able on running Linux off also from a USB too
14:45:35  <norbert79> having one USB pen in it, so I can host OpenTTD games 24/7 :Ö
14:45:36  <norbert79> :)
14:45:49  <kenneth> which switch for cp command to copy all files and folders ?
14:45:56  <norbert79> cp -r
14:46:01  <planetmaker> ^
14:46:03  <kenneth> cp /usr/share/openttd/ ~/server1
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14:48:21  <norbert79> hmm, such a shame, that some games do not offer console based server hosting, but GUI based only...
14:48:27  <norbert79> like Hidden and Dangerous 2 :(
14:48:37  <kenneth> gui based hosting, lets chew up some ram
14:48:50  <kenneth> headless console
14:48:57  <norbert79> no, lets chew up your system first having a GUI based enviroment first
14:49:13  <norbert79> for having a...
14:50:44  <kenneth> thats want i meant
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15:00:13  <norbert79> Anyone tested Gallium's DirectX layer for Linux?
15:00:45  *** Hirundo is now known as Jasper
15:01:06  <norbert79> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium3D
15:01:07  *** Jasper is now known as Hirundo
15:02:07  <norbert79> Pity, that they only focus on the Direct3D implementation only, and no support for Directplay Network as well
15:02:08  <kenneth> planetmaker: got them all in the home dir now
15:02:35  <kenneth> planetmaker: but i still end up with crap in ~
15:02:39  <kenneth> rm -r content_download/ openttd.cfg scenario/ save/ hs.dat
15:02:55  <kenneth> all that stuff ends up in ~ even when the dedi runs in its own dir
15:03:09  <kenneth> ~/server1/openttd -D -c ~/server1/openttd.cfg
15:03:19  <norbert79> do you have your config file at the same place where your OpenTTD binary is?
15:03:24  <kenneth> yes
15:03:36  <kenneth> when i run without the -c switch
15:03:38  <kenneth> it resorts to
15:03:44  <norbert79> ~/server1/openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
15:03:45  <kenneth> ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
15:03:47  <norbert79> try this way
15:03:53  <kenneth> that didnt work for some strange reason
15:03:57  <kenneth> still loaded a stock cfg
15:04:00  <norbert79> oh and remove the config from .openttd
15:04:10  <norbert79> have only 1 config file
15:04:12  <kenneth> done i did
15:04:16  <kenneth> rm -r .openttd
15:04:55  <planetmaker> you probably want to keep ~/.openttd
15:05:09  <planetmaker> For your base set files and newgrfs and AIs
15:05:22  <planetmaker> maybe also savegames
15:05:36  <planetmaker> no need to have that stuff around twice
15:05:42  <planetmaker> but symlinks help there
15:06:09  <norbert79> planetmaker: Weird, it's not needed in my case
15:06:21  <norbert79> planetmaker: Having everything in the same root directory and it works, under each OS
15:06:28  <planetmaker> norbert79, it's not needed - if you have the base sets somewhere else
15:06:40  <planetmaker> but for two servers it means to have them around twice
15:06:45  <planetmaker> Which is stupid ;-)
15:07:01  <kenneth> madness
15:07:08  <kenneth> do it all for me hahahahaha
15:07:11  <norbert79> not really... :)
15:07:24  <norbert79> But I use the same binary, but different config file
15:07:24  <kenneth> on an unrelated topic
15:07:27  <planetmaker> norbert79, how is it helpful to have the base sets in each server's directory?
15:07:35  <kenneth> does anyone work with PLC equipment, S&
15:07:38  <kenneth> S&
15:07:40  <kenneth> S7
15:07:57  <planetmaker> if you only have _one_ directory it doesn't matter, of course
15:08:00  <norbert79> no, I mean if I run paralell 3 different GRF based servers it's still the same directory, but you are right in case of stable vs uunstable e.g.
15:08:29  <planetmaker> yes. It makes sense for binaries. But not for online content :-)
15:11:03  <norbert79> 1.0.5 will be out in a month... Oh boy, upgrading again :)
15:11:29  <planetmaker> there's 1.0.5-RC1, yes :-)
15:11:33  <planetmaker> time surely flies
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15:14:01  <norbert79> signalsw.grf - these were only needed by the TTDPatch, right? They are included in the current openttd.grf files, right?
15:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:14:35  <norbert79> signalsw.grf - ˙Pre-Signals and Semaphores C)opyright 2003 by Michael Blunck
15:14:37  <norbert79> ok
15:15:14  <norbert79> Same for nsignalsw.grf I guess
15:15:31  <planetmaker> openttd does not need anything else than a base set
15:15:39  * norbert79 jsut revieweing old and unused GRF-s
15:15:43  <norbert79> need to remove some
15:16:10  <planetmaker> don't, if you want to play old versions once ;-)
15:16:22  <planetmaker> just move them to an 'obsolete' or whatever folder ;-)
15:16:34  <norbert79> right, good idea
15:16:46  <Rubidium> old OpenTTD binary packages already have that NewGRF (if they need them)
15:17:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "old" like 0.3.x?
15:18:00  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, or 0.2.0
15:20:38  <Rubidium> and since 0.6 they're unified
15:21:31  <norbert79> Now if I only know what dosdummy.grf was used for...
15:22:01  <Rubidium> the windows base pack has more sprites, so it's used to add some dummy sprites for dos
15:22:08  <Rubidium> so the sprite numbers match
15:22:53  <norbert79> I guess it can go to obsolete too... I guess that came from the original Windows installer of TTD
15:22:55  <Rubidium> windows base pack = original TTD for Windows sprites
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15:23:03  <norbert79> right
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15:42:57  <norbert79> Question: how do I extract sprites from a GRF?
15:43:12  <Terkhen> use grfcodec
15:43:31  <norbert79> did, but I am clueless how to do it, it always wants to compile :)
15:43:38  <norbert79> I only have a GRF file
15:43:40  <norbert79> no source
15:43:50  <Terkhen> IIRC you had to use -d
15:44:18  <norbert79> thank you, I used e
15:48:54  <glx> hehe
15:49:16  <glx> e=encode, d=decode
15:49:23  <glx> quite logical
15:49:31  <norbert79> I thought it's for 'e'xtract
15:49:59  <glx> usually it's e'x'tract
15:50:25  <norbert79> not for ARJ :)
15:50:46  <planetmaker> pssst: use grfcodec -o png -p 2 :-)
15:51:03  <glx> for ARJ I always used x
15:51:04  <planetmaker> but use a nightly grfcodec
15:51:18  <planetmaker> :-P well. maybe not for arj ;-)
15:52:09  <norbert79> planetmaker: Ah, mine is from August
15:52:25  <planetmaker> nightlies support png :-)
15:52:32  <planetmaker> convenience rulez
15:52:43  * norbert79 loves PNG :)
15:52:51  <planetmaker> say thanks to Lakie ^ :-)
15:53:08  *** Mortomes|Work [~MortomesW@mail.qps.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:53:13  <Lakie> Heh
15:53:27  <planetmaker> :-)
15:53:41  <glx> maybe I should hg up :)
15:53:50  <planetmaker> definitely ;-)
15:54:20  <planetmaker> I just wondered why you didn't make png the default, Lakie ;-)
15:54:41  <Lakie> Beccause it needs to be tested before replacing the default of pcx
15:54:50  <glx> oh it was already up-to-date
15:54:51  <Lakie> Something Rubidium suggested.
15:54:56  <planetmaker> :-)
15:54:59  <planetmaker> fair enough
15:55:26  <Lakie> Becides you can compile grfcodec without png support, if you lack libpng
15:55:53  <planetmaker> I need it anyway, if I want to play OpenTTD ;-)
15:56:19  <Lakie> Heh, I thought it was optional with OpenTTD also?
15:56:36  <norbert79> one question: do the source images have some limitations on the file-/resolution size?
15:56:38  <glx> optional but recommended
15:56:44  <norbert79> (for GRFs)
15:56:53  <planetmaker> as optional as compression for savegames ;-)
15:57:25  <Lakie> Its generally recommended that spritesheets have a width to the being a multiple of 2 or 4.
15:57:30  <glx> zlib is highly recommended (needed for multiplayer)
15:57:35  <Lakie> I doubt it matters s much with pngs though
15:58:16  <planetmaker> at least earlier grfcodecs had some problems otherwise
15:58:22  <planetmaker> +some
15:58:35  <norbert79> Lakie, planetmaker: thx...
15:58:37  <Lakie> Aye, but I believe that was down to a specific quirk f pcx files
15:58:41  <glx> I guess pcx format somehow require that
15:58:47  <planetmaker> might be
15:59:29  <Lakie> You'll know if its failed, norbert79,  the sprites in the grf file will be scewed.
15:59:37  <Lakie> As in all slanted
15:59:38  <glx> memory alignment was a usual requirement when pcx was created
15:59:50  <Lakie> And bmp?
15:59:57  <norbert79> Lakie: Yeah, just wanted to prepare myself for hidden surprises
16:01:16  <Lakie> Ok
16:04:44  *** noom [~chatzilla@wopr-p-144-134-185-177.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd
16:04:49  <noom> hey all
16:05:15  <planetmaker> salut
16:05:23  <norbert79> hello noom
16:05:31  <frosch123> the pcx issue with odd image widths was fixed before 1.0
16:05:35  <noom> i need a bit of help with a network i'm trying to build
16:05:38  <frosch123> well, in 1.0
16:05:44  <Lakie> Ok
16:05:52  <noom> i want to make this here http://wiki.openttd.org/images/2/21/Loop.png
16:06:02  <noom> but when i try to copy it using the one way path signals, it doesnt work
16:06:15  <planetmaker> of course
16:06:25  <planetmaker> one-way path signals cannot be passed from the back
16:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> <norbert79> not for ARJ :) <-- i haven't seen anybody use arj in fifteen years...
16:06:41  <planetmaker> and... with path signals that's not a signal setup you want
16:06:54  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Well, I am always a bit different :D
16:07:00  <planetmaker> you put a path signal only where a train can wait without blocking anything important
16:07:08  <noom> i tried even making it using signal lights that looked like the ones in the image but it didnt work :(
16:07:14  <noom> i guess i just dont understand how to use them
16:07:36  <planetmaker> "doesn't work" is also a quite vague description ;-)
16:07:49  <noom> well, when the station fills up, the 5th train doesnt go into the loop
16:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny how a program that was virtually standard in the early 90's so suddenly and completely disappears
16:08:06  <noom> it stops back as if it wants to go to the first platform
16:08:21  <noom> like it cant see a path through the loop or something
16:08:26  <Lakie> Better programs / algorithms appeared, Eddi|zuHause?
16:08:27  <noom> i'm sure i had it working at some stage o.O
16:08:34  <norbert79> noom: You might want to use pre-signals
16:08:41  <planetmaker> noom, yes... the signal behaviour changed since when that image was made. Using pre-signals will help
16:08:49  <noom> i was afraid someone would say that :(
16:08:59  <noom> i can barely make these path ones work :p
16:09:02  <noom> signals confuse me
16:09:02  <norbert79> noom: Nah, pre-signals are very easy to use, even for a loop
16:09:11  <planetmaker> make all double signals exit signals. And the one leading to the station an entry signal
16:09:16  <noom> maybe you could help? the wiki didnt make sense to me
16:09:27  <norbert79> you place a pre-signal in front of a section, and place exit-signals after the sections
16:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Lakie: but better algorithms than zip and rar appeared, but both of these are still widespread
16:10:01  <Lakie> True,
16:10:10  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ace was far more superiour, yet disappeard
16:10:11  <noom> hmmm, let me have a go at them
16:10:20  <Lakie> I believe the integration of zip into windows has kept it around for longer/
16:10:35  <norbert79> Lakie: Hmm, not really, just think on GZ
16:11:02  <planetmaker> noom, an entry signal will be red only if ALL exit signals attached to the block are red
16:11:03  <norbert79> Lakie: That supports both GZ and ZIP, and Unix systems also can have other compressing aplélications too
16:11:20  <planetmaker> norbert79, xz for the win :-)
16:11:44  * Lakie doesn't think windows defaultly handles .gz
16:11:48  <norbert79> noom: http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Station_no_pre-signals.png - This is what you have
16:11:59  <norbert79> noom: This is what you want http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Station_with_pre-signals.png
16:14:08  <noom> i dont know what the signals in that picture are o.O
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16:14:20  <noom> whats the single yellow one, and the two grey ones?
16:14:26  <Lakie> Entry, and I imagine two exits?
16:14:31  <planetmaker> ^
16:14:40  <noom> there are 3 different types there though
16:14:44  <Lakie> Shouldn't the signal gui let you chooe visually?
16:15:23  <norbert79> noom: pre-signal: the one with a table fited below the lamp, placed horizontally... Exit-signal: vertical block placed under the lamp, white. Combo-signal: same, but in yellow
16:15:35  <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signal <-- that explains signals
16:16:08  <noom> i dunno whats not clicking here but i'm not getting this
16:16:17  <noom> doesnt seem exit signals are going where they would in my head
16:16:19  <noom> in that image
16:16:25  <noom> i'm so confused lol >.<
16:16:29  <Lakie> They do
16:16:40  <Lakie> You have one junctiopn leading to two exits from that junction
16:16:42  <noom> yeah i obviously just have no idea lol
16:16:44  <planetmaker> noom, exit = exit of signal block. not of station
16:17:07  <noom> maybe if you just walked me through whats happening in that image
16:17:30  <planetmaker> maybe you just experiment a bit ;-)
16:17:40  <noom> i have been for hours man thats why i'm here
16:17:42  <noom> i gave up :p
16:17:44  <planetmaker> see how things behave
16:18:13  <planetmaker> start with the usual block signals. no entry, combo or exit, no path
16:18:15  <planetmaker> quite easy
16:18:29  <Lakie> In essence, the block is over a junction, a train cannot enter the signal block until there is an exit
16:18:34  <planetmaker> or start with the path signals only
16:18:39  <norbert79> noom: Entry-signal: Train: "Oh hai, I need to know if I can go out of this section through any exit... Any exit available?" - Red: No exit is free, which is being marked with an exit-signal... Green: At Least one exit is free, which has the exit-signal set to green.
16:18:41  <planetmaker> don't yet mix signal types
16:19:06  <noom> i'm gonna upload a screenshot
16:19:09  <norbert79> sure
16:20:45  <noom> hahaha
16:20:55  <noom> its working >.<
16:21:11  <Lakie> Heh
16:21:32  * Lakie wonders if pbs works similar to ttdpatch in openttd or very differently
16:21:58  <planetmaker> not the same
16:22:44  <Lakie> Ok, similar?
16:22:58  <glx> no
16:23:04  <Lakie> :(
16:23:13  <Lakie> Means I have to completely relearn pbs.
16:23:36  <glx> 1 rule to follow, place pbs signal only if it's a safe waiting location
16:24:40  <Lakie> Heh ok,
16:24:40  <glx> and pbs signals are not one-way
16:24:56  <Lakie> I just noticed, from that wiki page
16:25:32  <SmatZ> is there any official escape character that works in sed in all cases?
16:25:56  <SmatZ> \ doesn't work when the patters starts with (
16:26:00  <planetmaker> SmatZ, it depends - if your sed'ed string contains it...
16:26:07  <SmatZ> [x] doesnt work when x is -
16:26:09  <SmatZ> ...
16:26:14  <planetmaker> @ ?
16:26:27  <SmatZ> I don't have problem with the sepchar
16:26:40  <planetmaker> uh-oh. escape. :-x
16:26:47  <SmatZ> I want to have any random user-supplied sequence
16:27:01  <SmatZ> and use sed to replace taht sequence in a file by something else...
16:27:18  <SmatZ> but it fails in cases when the sequence starts/equals to ( . -
16:27:24  <SmatZ> and maybe other cases
16:27:30  <SmatZ> :(
16:27:37  <Ammler> could you make a concrete example
16:27:50  <SmatZ> Ammler: I want to replace . by X
16:28:15  <norbert79> Laterz!
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16:28:15  <Ammler> tr '.' 'X'
16:28:40  <SmatZ> Ammler: I can't use tr because the sequence can be longer
16:28:51  <SmatZ> like, replace . by XXX
16:29:01  <SmatZ> echo 'a.a' | sed s@.@X@g
16:29:06  <SmatZ> replaces all characters
16:29:20  <SmatZ> echo 'a.a' | sed s@[.]@X@g
16:30:14  <SmatZ> or when the sequence starts in ^
16:30:16  <Ammler> sed s/\./X/g
16:30:51  <SmatZ> the problem is I don't know what will the sequence by
16:30:54  <SmatZ> *be
16:31:08  <Ammler> X or .?
16:31:27  <SmatZ> so it's a general sed@${PATTERN}@${OTHER}@g
16:31:40  <Ammler> just escape the escape :-)
16:31:44  <SmatZ> (I know there won't be @ in patterns)
16:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need an option like "interpret pattern literally, not as regexp"?
16:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> like in grep -F?
16:32:06  <SmatZ> no matter when I tried is failed in some cases :(
16:32:08  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: yup :)
16:32:23  <planetmaker> and also ${OTHER} I guess
16:33:01  <SmatZ> yup :)
16:36:02  <Qantourisc> planetmaker: unless the broken down engine becomes a brake/blocked for some reason, one could easy run on 1 engine unless it cannot pull the laod ...
16:36:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: yes, but that is not implemented.
16:36:40  <Qantourisc> :)
16:36:55  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, his claim is that two engines are more reliable than one. That is not necessarily true
16:37:17  <Qantourisc> depends on what brakes ofcours :)
16:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: depends on your definition of the event-space ;)
16:37:52  <planetmaker> yes. And as such I can easily also say: probability of fatal break-down doesn't change. As such changing anything there is too much work for no gain ;-)
16:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> whether you define "at least one is broken down" or "at least one is working" as the dividing case
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16:41:41  <Qantourisc> Eddi|zuHause: depends on what brakes down :) if iirc the brakes clamp up, that's a problem :) if ofcours some engine part failes: put her in neutral (if trains have sutch a thing :D)
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16:42:37  <Qantourisc> and if there are 2 things i want in working order on my trains, it's brakes and engine decoupeling so i can brake properly :D
16:42:54  <Qantourisc> or car, or any other engine driven thing :)
16:43:26  <SmatZ> [17:32:25] <SmatZ> no matter when I tried is failed in some cases :( <== how could I make so many typos in such a short sentence ...
16:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> engine decoupling is not always possible
16:43:35  <planetmaker> you could search the forums for the patch. There's an old one
16:44:05  <planetmaker> like 'improved breakdowns' or similarily named
16:44:11  <Qantourisc> a
16:44:15  <Qantourisc> well i'm ok with it
16:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> for example DC motors generally come in sizes between 500V and 750V. yet there are 1500V DC lines
16:44:20  <Qantourisc> just tiking out loud :)
16:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what they do is put two 750V motors in series
16:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but when one engine breaks, they can't run on the other engine, because it would get too much power
16:45:24  <planetmaker> but hardly in the wording of engine=separate vehicle
16:46:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose those are connected double-units
16:46:24  <noom> hehe that was fun, thanks for all the help guys :D
16:46:26  <planetmaker> might be :-)
16:46:37  <noom> gonna go make some crazy logic chains now :p
16:46:41  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, voltage divider!
16:46:45  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine putting two metro wagons together
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16:47:14  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: have fun with carrying a huge resistor around in case the engine breaks! :)
16:47:31  <ccfreak2k> You know those fans on the top of diesel-electric engines?
16:47:34  <ccfreak2k> Giant resistors.
16:47:35  <Hirundo> Modern (Dutch) 1500V locomotives have two 1500V engines in parallel, so they could run at half power
16:47:36  <planetmaker> AC is easy. DC is bad
16:48:44  <Hirundo> What about AC/DC ?
16:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i was at a transformer repair facility recently
16:49:03  <planetmaker> possible. But why would you do that?
16:49:26  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine a transformer from 380kV to 110kV
16:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> those things are _huge_
16:50:15  <planetmaker> that's also a bit higher voltage than AC trains drive on.
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16:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause> 380kV you have on long distance power lines, 110kV on regional power lines
16:51:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the higher the voltage, the lower the distance losses
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16:52:42  <ccfreak2k> Don't forget about power factor!
16:53:15  <Eddi|zuHause> a transformer that can process 700MVA weighs about 400t
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17:03:56  <Chris_Booth> afternoon all
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17:18:09  <Qantourisc> i have a train that refusing to go where it should go ?
17:18:40  <planetmaker> you may know better than we do
17:18:41  <planetmaker> :-P
17:19:05  <planetmaker> hi Chris_Booth
17:19:19  <Chris_Booth> hi planetmaker
17:19:35  <Chris_Booth> I am just updating the public server wiki
17:19:42  <Chris_Booth> it is rather old and out of date
17:19:48  <Chris_Booth> it even says you have no sandbox server
17:20:19  <planetmaker> which is true
17:20:37  <Qantourisc> weird the next train doesn't make the same mistake
17:20:39  <planetmaker> the sandbox server is the pre-historic name of the public server
17:20:43  <Qantourisc> o well
17:20:49  <planetmaker> the stable server is the Welcome Server
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17:21:36  <Chris_Booth> the stable server is more of a sandbox server than the public server
17:22:12  <planetmaker> That's why we have no sandbox server. Neither is
17:22:43  <planetmaker> You may play many styles on the Welcome server, but its name is not sandbox :-)
17:23:20  <Chris_Booth> no it isn't
17:23:37  <Chris_Booth> I decided to remove the sandbox section of the article
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17:34:20  <frosch123> SmatZ: still interested in a solution?
17:37:27  <SmatZ> frosch123: yup :)
17:37:46  <frosch123> ok, i'll write something down, but it will not save your sanity
17:37:58  <SmatZ> :)
17:38:18  <SmatZ> actually I started writing a C program for that :)
17:42:05  <frosch123> http://pastebin.com/Lj3Qf0kz <- the stuff to replace must be in the first and second line of the input, so do some echo/cat stuff before
17:42:20  <frosch123> not tested though :p
17:43:24  <SmatZ> frosch123: 8-) thanks, I will give it a try :)
17:43:39  <SmatZ> I really expected something simpler :)
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17:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> could just write a patch for sed ;)
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17:46:58  <SmatZ> :)
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17:51:56  * planetmaker should have listened to frosch123 's warning
17:52:16  * frosch123 loves sed
17:52:26  <planetmaker> so much is obvious :-)
17:52:34  <planetmaker> how you preserve sanity less so :-P
17:52:45  <frosch123> do i?
17:52:52  <planetmaker> :-D
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17:53:20  <SmatZ> :)
17:53:33  <planetmaker> the norm defined in the channel might differe from a generally accepted one. But this norm here does work for me
17:56:06  <SmatZ> :)
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17:58:29  <frosch123> hmm, i guess it does not work at all
17:58:39  <frosch123> or only for one occurence per line
17:58:57  * planetmaker continues with shunting-fun
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18:00:56  * SmatZ is reading sed man page and examples :)
18:01:41  <Ammler> you didn't yet? :-P
18:01:44  *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
18:01:47  <frosch123> hmm, it does not work at all :(
18:01:59  <Rubidium> what are you actually trying to do?
18:02:34  <SmatZ> Ammler: I did, but now I am trying to understand the script frosch123 gave me :)
18:03:18  <SmatZ> Rubidium: make sed work for general replace... "sed s@${TEXT}@${REPLACE}@g"
18:03:41  <SmatZ> when $TEXT can contain any character (apart from @)
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18:04:45  <frosch123> http://pastebin.com/mhySzrqs <- this one actually works
18:04:56  <frosch123> as long as the search pattern is not contained in the replacement
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18:05:59  <Rubidium> why not use ed?
18:06:17  <SmatZ> -bash: ed: command not found
18:06:21  <SmatZ> I don't know ed :)
18:06:36  <SmatZ> I expected sed will be good for that
18:06:54  <Rubidium> but sed uses regexp
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18:45:17  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21076 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
18:45:17  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:17  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 74 changes by Phreeze
18:56:13  <frosch123> haha, one bomb in a packet and they want to shoot cargo planes
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19:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> they should simply ban cargo planes...
19:01:54  <frosch123> except there is a minister inside
19:11:35  <__ln__> inside a packet?
19:11:45  <__ln__> that's so inhuman even for ministers
19:12:04  <Belugas> ministers are not human
19:12:09  <Belugas> they are political entities
19:12:32  <Belugas> xiong... leave that body!
19:14:33  <Terkhen> :D
19:15:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the deluded masochist?
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19:20:58  <Belugas> the definition crazed maniac
19:32:24  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/fast_train.png <--- a fast steam train leaves an interesting smoke trail
19:33:12  <frosch123> :p
19:35:26  <planetmaker> :-D
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19:37:55  <avdg> :o
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20:10:17  <kenneth> hello all
20:10:51  <Alberth> hello
20:11:04  <kenneth> i have an ipad i wonder if a port would to it would be interesting
20:11:11  <kenneth> i was looking at sdk
20:11:26  <kenneth> just dont know whether the screen would still be too smsll
20:11:34  <kenneth> as it was on the iphone
20:12:02  <perk11> kenneth: doesn't it have Mac OS?
20:12:36  <ccfreak2k> kenneth, there's a port to the Nintendo DS. Anything is possible.
20:12:54  <kenneth> well it uses mac os x kernel, darwin, which is unix derived
20:13:14  <perk11> I think, the screen would be large enough
20:13:20  <kenneth> dpkg and apt as well as other tool chains run on iphone os
20:13:50  <kenneth> small res it would run a treat
20:13:51  <perk11> I played openttd on 2" screen
20:14:04  <kenneth> ipad is 1024x768
20:14:06  <perk11> it was small, but playable
20:14:12  <Alberth> tt-forums seems down, but I think it was discussed there already
20:14:21  <kenneth> ah
20:14:32  <perk11> Alberth: it's not down for me
20:14:55  <perk11> works pretty fast
20:15:16  <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46973&p=911162&hilit=ipad+port#p911162
20:15:33  <Alberth> perk11: perhaps it was a bit busy
20:18:09  <Alberth> iirc, there was a port, some licensing issues were resolved, then apple decided to pull it from their store
20:20:10  <perk11> and can't users install apps without store?
20:20:32  <perk11> I mean without hacking anything
20:20:50  * Alberth knows nothing about i* devices
20:22:14  <__ln__> perk11: not really
20:22:59  <Alberth> and with apple policies being what they are, I see no reason to change that.
20:23:10  <kenneth> have you guys seen this http://openttd.chipin.com/openttd-for-ipad-and-iphone
20:23:13  <kenneth> i guess you have
20:23:29  <kenneth> personal jabs
20:23:32  <kenneth> "We just need the support of the OpenTTD team - Rubidium specifically. "
20:24:01  <Alberth> that's old news
20:24:22  <Alberth> Rubidium: sent several emails after the licensing issues were resolved
20:25:32  <Alberth> do some more searching, it has all been discussed
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20:26:08  <kenneth> apolagies for digging that up
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20:29:00  <Belugas> in the office, we call i* devices iToys
20:29:18  <Belugas> apart one guy, who sticks to it like the 8th marvel
20:29:35  <kenneth> i use my ipad when im bored on the can
20:29:44  <Belugas> techno junki
20:29:48  <kenneth> haha
20:29:53  <Belugas> him, not you!
20:30:09  <kenneth> how much fun is converting c++ to c# or is a case of rewrite from scratch
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20:30:24  <Belugas> i have Sudokus on my pocket when i'm bored, on the bus :)
20:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> kenneth: probably both :p
20:30:44  <kenneth> which would you choose
20:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, if you are into that kind of thing
20:30:57  <Belugas> big question: is there any benefit?
20:30:57  <Alberth> kenneth: both have been tried, and failed
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20:31:03  <Belugas> i mean... real benefit?
20:31:07  <kenneth> not at all
20:31:08  <Alberth> big question, is it feasible at all?
20:32:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it probably results in a 90% rewrite, but if you were going to do that, you might as well just avoid a lot of the design constraints of being "like transport tycoon"
20:32:37  <kenneth> well toolchain/sdk for jailbroken idevices uses objective-c/c#
20:32:57  <kenneth> so if a port could be done by someone who isnt going to cry out for attention, we could all share it :)
20:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you see the real problem
20:34:34  <kenneth> im naive
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20:35:07  <Rubidium> kenneth: that page is outdated and mostly wrong
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20:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the actual port is the least problem
20:35:27  <Alberth> we run into CPU limits with optimized compiled C/C++ code, C# runs on a VM. How far do you think you'll get?
20:35:37  <Rubidium> even then, it's currently not on their app store because Apple's policy changed and they don't allow GPL applications anymore
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20:40:10  <kenneth> Yes but even if it did reach a stage of completion Rubidium you could offer it to a target audience of open source followers in the Jailbreak scene. It is well established know with a central well know apt GUI application which a OpenTTD port could be shared through.
20:41:36  <Rubidium> kenneth: offering it means, in my opinion, supporting it. Supporting it requires compiling and debugging it. Compiling requires a Mac, debugging requires an iPad/iPhone, and someone who knows their way around in the SDK.
20:41:48  <Terkhen> and wants to :)
20:42:29  <Rubidium> given there is nobody with both a mac and ipad/iphone on the development team that can or wants to do that, we can't support it and as such we won't offer it
20:43:22  <perk11> Rubidium: why don't you allow that guy who originally ported it to join development team as a Mac/ipad/iphone manager?
20:44:17  <xiong> Um, I came in late. Are you guys talking about porting to iPad?
20:44:32  <perk11> yes
20:44:33  <Rubidium> because the only contact I've had with that person is, basically, via Apple
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20:45:32  <Rubidium> i.e. contact with that person is extremely difficult
20:45:43  <perk11> communication problem?
20:46:18  <Rubidium> yes
20:46:34  <Rubidium> well, and what I've seen he done with OpenTTD's source code is just horrid
20:47:01  <perk11> oh ok
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20:47:33  <perk11> but the second may be solved as a branch for i*
20:47:49  <__ln__> branching does not increase code quality
20:47:51  <Rubidium> and I *really* don't what he has done in the past w.r.t. open source
20:48:25  <Rubidium> +like
20:49:12  <perk11> http://www.zodttd.com/wp/2010/04/open-up-openttd-to-apple-devices/#IDComment68334871 that explains much
20:52:10  <Rubidium> http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305840 <- that as well
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20:54:46  <andythenorth_> hi
20:55:38  <Rubidium> ohai guy with the virgin cable :)
20:56:01  <andythenorth_> you can even see which exchange I'm on :P
20:56:32  <andythenorth_> what's the best way to fake an iterator over a list in nfo + CPP
20:56:34  <andythenorth_> ?
20:57:04  <andythenorth_> #define xyz, #include sometemplate.... repeat
20:57:31  <Rubidium> you can't, besides generating that file with awk of something
20:58:00  <andythenorth_> I'll write it by hand then
20:58:58  <SmatZ> anyone here compiling OpenTTD under mingw? does it work for you with lzma? do you compile with --enable-static by default?
20:59:36  <Rubidium> http://master.binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r21076/logs/windows-win9x-compile.log <- is that "default"?
21:00:02  <perk11> SmatZ: let me try
21:00:05  <SmatZ> ok :)
21:00:24  <SmatZ> Vitus has a problem with compiling with the lzma support
21:00:43  <Terkhen> SmatZ: http://wiki.openttd.org/Mingw#Compiling_xz <--- these are the steps I followed
21:00:48  <SmatZ> because "pkg-config liblzma --libs --static" prints "-L/lib -llzma -lpthread"
21:00:59  <SmatZ> and -lpthread shouldn't be used at mingw
21:01:07  <SmatZ> so I wonder if he did something wrong
21:01:17  <SmatZ> or if there is something wrong in the documentation :)
21:01:19  <Rubidium> sounds like a bug in liblzma
21:01:51  <Rubidium> I'm not sure though
21:02:24  <SmatZ> I have no clue :(
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21:08:55  <perk11> SmatZ: and where can I find liblzma?
21:09:25  <SmatZ> perk11: the installation procedure is described at http://wiki.openttd.org/Mingw#Compiling_xz
21:09:30  <SmatZ> thanks for having a look :)
21:09:32  <planetmaker> on its website... see www.openttd.org/development
21:09:43  <perk11> ah ok
21:09:47  <SmatZ> :)
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21:28:17  <Qantourisc> What is the "best" map size ? 2048x2048 seems to lag when scrolling fast
21:28:31  <planetmaker> 64x64
21:29:17  <perk11> perk11@PERK11-NOTE ~
21:29:18  <perk11> $ pkg-config liblzma --libs --static
21:29:18  <perk11> -LD:/MinGW/lib -llzma
21:29:34  <perk11> without -plthread
21:29:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: try pausing before scrolling
21:29:40  <perk11> -lpthread
21:29:56  <Qantourisc> just as bad
21:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: "best" map size heavily depends on your system performance and your determination to fill the entire map
21:30:21  <Qantourisc> no determination to fill it :)
21:30:37  <Qantourisc> well i have a relativly heavy pc
21:30:48  <Qantourisc> yet 2048x2048 seems out of grasp :)
21:30:50  <perk11> Qantourisc: you may play 512x512 for about a month alone
21:30:58  <Qantourisc> perk11: oO
21:31:01  <Qantourisc> so this is a year ?
21:31:06  <Qantourisc> or more :)
21:31:10  <Qantourisc> good to know :)
21:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> easily ;)
21:31:22  <Qantourisc> (the 2048x2048 is just there to show of then ? :D)
21:34:34  <perk11> SmatZ: I've got those nasty warnings after each source file http://paste.org.ru/?rod49t , but it seems to compile
21:35:34  <SmatZ> perk11: thanks a lot :)
21:35:44  <perk11> what for?
21:35:51  <SmatZ> it seems each instalation of mingw has its own problems :)
21:35:59  <perk11> :)
21:36:00  <SmatZ> perk11: for testing the compilation! :)
21:37:07  <glx> perk11: outdated win32api I'd say
21:37:28  <perk11> outdated MingW?
21:37:33  <glx> or at least something outdated in mingw install
21:38:05  <perk11> maybe
21:38:15  <perk11> but it was good 3 months before
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21:44:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... would this work? case 0x32: return v->vehstatus | (v->Next() == NULL ? 0 : v->Next()->vehstatus << 8) | (v->Previous() == NULL ? 0 : v->Previous()->vehstatus << 16);
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21:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably a bad approach
21:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a way to access 80+ vars for any vehicle in the chain
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21:47:02  <Rubidium> but, according to frosch, that's going to lead to chicken-egg bugs and desyncs
21:47:15  <planetmaker> you can go some very crude way via the self-defined property byte via the engine
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21:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how do you mean?
21:48:57  <planetmaker> property 25 and related callback
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21:50:12  <planetmaker> I'm not yet 100% convinced there's some path. But for a limited set of information it might just work
21:50:14  <dih> @logs
21:50:14  <DorpsGek> dih: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
21:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: to resolve chicken-egg-problems you might refuse reading variables that can be defined by newgrf-callbacks
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21:50:29  <andythenorth_> what are you trying to do?
21:51:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, basic problem is this: i have an articulated vehicle of 3 parts, reliably identifyable by (position in same-id-chain)%3
21:51:43  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but you could still do like (if wagon A = f(B)...) and (if wagon B = f(A)...)
21:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> parts 0 and 2 should be invisible, and 1 visible with over-length
21:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but if part 0 or 2 is hidden in tunnel, part 1 should change appearance, to prevent glitches
21:52:24  <Qantourisc> Ps what's up with the 2050 goal ?
21:52:52  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: why don't you draw the wagon as three normal-length sprites?
21:53:03  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: because then they bend in curves
21:53:17  * planetmaker wouldn't consider that terrible
21:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it is ;)
21:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause> between bending and tunnel glitching, i take the tunnel glitch..
21:54:03  <planetmaker> ok :-)
21:54:14  <andythenorth_> I might be coming to this too late :P
21:54:18  <andythenorth_> what's the vehicle
21:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: basically a wagon of full-tile-length
21:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> but variable B2 of adjacent vehicle would be a pretty straight forward way to solving the tunnel glitch problem
21:55:35  <andythenorth_> train?
21:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, train. but could be anything...
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21:57:48  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: can't you check for curvature? It's not a 100% solution but maybe some:
21:58:02  <planetmaker> draw three sprites, if no curvature, but one long, if curvature
21:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, because for image of part 0 i have to know curvature relative to part 1 and 2
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21:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> but i can only read curvature of one adjacent part
21:58:57  <planetmaker> http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/vehicles.html#vehicles-vars
21:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> not two
21:59:32  <Eddi|zuHause> only v->Previous() and v->Next(), not v->Next()->Next()
21:59:41  <planetmaker> you seem to be able prev, this and next
21:59:45  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: implement consist-local storage :P
22:00:04  <andythenorth_> do vehicles have an animation counter?
22:00:08  <planetmaker> yes
22:00:18  <planetmaker> well... not counter
22:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> a movement counter
22:00:31  <andythenorth_> can a trailing vehicle adjust the movement counter of the head vehicle?
22:00:32  <planetmaker> nothing they can control ^
22:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> which cannot be set by grf
22:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but storage is not the way to go here
22:01:06  <andythenorth_> trailing vehicles can read from head vehicle, but change nothing?
22:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause> because i don't actually need to store any information
22:01:56  <andythenorth_> you just need to check 80+ var 32 for first / last vehicles in consist?
22:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and especially i shouldn't mess with the front vehicle, which might not even come from the same grf, and do messy stuff
22:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: that can't work properly if the train is longer than the tunnel
22:03:47  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: so this is a single wagon composed of 3 vehicles, with reliable order, but could be in a consist of arbitrary length, at an arbitrary position
22:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: exactly
22:05:49  <Terkhen> good night
22:05:55  <andythenorth_> I don't know of a way to check anything for neighbouring vehicles :|
22:05:58  <andythenorth_> night Terkhen
22:07:00  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen
22:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: right, and the line above would provide the information i need by bitstuffing an existing variable with adjacent vehicle information, but it's not a generic way
22:08:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: and the fear is that a generic version would open too many cans of worms
22:08:12  <andythenorth_> set a parameter on a varact 2 that is an offset to a neighbouring vehicle?
22:08:15  <andythenorth_> signed?
22:08:34  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: just don't document it publicly :P
22:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: example: vehicle A reads capacity of vehicle B during capacity callback, and vehicle B reads capacity of vehicle A during capacity callback
22:09:25  <planetmaker> good night
22:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> may lead to undefined outcome
22:09:57  <Eddi|zuHause> aka desync
22:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i understand that one needs to be very careful with these things
22:12:51  <andythenorth_> yes, generic looks unwise in that case
22:15:27  <andythenorth_> what's the vehicle?
22:15:33  <andythenorth_> why can't it bend?
22:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one wagon. it can't bend.
22:16:05  <andythenorth_> so when it hits a 45' curve....?
22:16:17  <andythenorth_> you'll get the same issue I have with larger boats in FISH
22:16:27  <andythenorth_> vehicle sprites overlapping other stuff
22:16:37  <Eddi|zuHause> with curvature info, i can do magic to create 22.5° views
22:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause> although i'm not that far yet
22:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> wagon consists of 3 vehicles: ([4/8][  8/8  ][4/8])
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22:18:28  <andythenorth_> hmm
22:18:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if either part 0 or 2 is bent, part 1 displays 22.5° view
22:18:44  <andythenorth_> now I have a new bug for HEQS :P
22:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> parts 0 and 2 must be invisible for this to look good
22:19:11  <andythenorth_> I have a 1 tile mining truck that glitches on tunnels
22:19:14  <Eddi|zuHause> but in tunnels, part 0 or 2 must be visible when part 1 is hidden
22:19:19  <andythenorth_> but I hadn't noticed until you mentioned this :P
22:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> or part 1 must display only half a wagon when either part 0 or 2 is hidden
22:20:03  <andythenorth_> I'm not going to say TMWFTLB because I have tackled the same kind of problem....
22:20:06  <andythenorth_> ...but good luck ;)
22:20:28  <andythenorth_> it's a tricky problem
22:20:36  <andythenorth_> is it a schnabel car or something?
22:20:37  <Eddi|zuHause> really, all necessary information is there. but it must be made available
22:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> a what?
22:21:06  <andythenorth_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnabel_car
22:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just annoyed at the tt-scale of shortening vehicles.
22:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, those. no. it's a green blob ;)
22:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly getting a 24m to 26m passenger carriage
22:22:40  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: when I started HEQS I was convinced I needed things like drawbars between trailers...
22:22:44  <andythenorth_> less so now :P
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22:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i don't need anything that fancy ;)
22:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> just wagons with double length ;)
22:28:04  <andythenorth_> good night
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22:46:50  <Sevalecan> oh wow
22:46:59  <Sevalecan> I had no idea you could ctrl+click on a vehicle to stop/start it
22:47:00  <Sevalecan> cool
22:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a fairly recent feature, i believe
22:53:19  <TrueBrain> I was about to complain I didn't know it either :p
22:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> hidden features are nastily hidden ;)
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