Log for #openttd on 30th November 2010:
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00:00:23  * planetmaker goes looking
00:02:46  <Zuu> I need to get some sleep. Good night.
00:02:47  <Rubidium> CogsOfGoo: does it show on an in-game screenshot?
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00:09:54  <BDM> hello
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00:11:04  <avdg> gn
00:11:19  <avdg> cold nights :o
00:11:38  <Rubidium> just get that extra blanket
00:12:27  <Rubidium> hello BDM
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00:14:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21355 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Feature-ish [FS#4280]: Happy Zuu and a hotkey for the AI debug window for all (Zuu)
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00:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> <- can anyone double check? don't want to spread false advice
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00:55:32  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: what you type is logical, obviously I'm not the one to ask whether or not it's 'correct' :)
00:56:13  <Eddi|zuHause> of course it's logical, that wasn't really the question :p
00:56:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the devil is in the details
00:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> like operator priority of -> vs typecast
00:57:01  <Xaroth> I personally do (type)(class->property)
00:57:11  <Xaroth> but that's me
00:57:46  <Xaroth> or was that ((type)class->property)
00:57:48  <Xaroth> not sure now
00:57:56  <Xaroth> damn you eddi, you almost made me look up my own code at 2am :P
00:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that last one is clearly useless
00:58:30  <Xaroth> if ((bool)town_id->larger_town)
00:58:54  <Xaroth> meh, cba to look it up
00:58:55  <Xaroth> too late
00:58:56  <Xaroth> nn
00:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's different. that () is syntactically necessary for the if
00:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it has nothing to do with the expression
01:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the question was, whether the default priority is (type)(a->b) or ((type)a)->b
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01:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not fluent enough in c-like dialects to decide that
01:01:19  <Xaroth> the last one looks odd tho :P
01:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no doubt about the correctness of that, though.
01:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "return" ends the code path, the "else" can never be reached
01:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the openttd code is full of these
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01:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if (precondition failed) return false;
01:05:27  <Eddi|zuHause> continue here without else
01:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> saves you an excessively long indentation block
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01:12:09  <glx> and headaches when reading the code ;)
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02:39:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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03:06:30  <supermop> hello
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07:24:33  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:42:30  <planetmaker> moin
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11:13:36  <fjb> Moin
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11:34:47  <Rubidium> moi fjb
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11:56:50  <andythenorth> " most of them would be way more popular"
11:56:54  <andythenorth> bleargh
11:57:03  <andythenorth> yeah, if we had double the amount of time in our day
11:57:18  <andythenorth> "if people were smarter most of them would be way more popular"
11:57:26  * andythenorth is grumpy
11:58:35  <andythenorth> so many people with their one pet theory titled "what one thing is wrong with the world"
11:59:07  * andythenorth is playing ball catch with a baby who can neither catch nor throw back
12:00:44  <V453000> :D
12:00:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21356 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix (r21351): sometimes versions wouldn't be correctly set for Windows builds
12:00:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth, but it is MUCH more entertaining than playing that thing in the forum with users who supposedly *should* be able to catch the ball
12:01:12  <V453000> they might even catch it but throw back damaged :p
12:01:14  <planetmaker> also "hi" :-)
12:01:26  <planetmaker> they'll throw back a shuriken
12:01:39  <V453000> prety evil babies :D
12:02:16  <Rubidium> or they'll throw up their meal ;)
12:02:27  <planetmaker> I'm still pondering how to respond to the "more realistic properties" request in OpenGFX+Trains or whether to continue ignoring it ;-)
12:02:50  <Terkhen> meh
12:03:19  <planetmaker> muh!
12:03:27  <V453000> "more realistic properties" ?
12:03:27  <Terkhen> tell them that it is as realistic as the base set of trains it is expanding
12:03:28  <V453000> wtf :D
12:03:33  <Rubidium> isn't the "goal" to create a set of trains like the original, but able to carry more cargos and look better for MUs?
12:03:41  <planetmaker> it is
12:03:51  <planetmaker> and I think I clearly stated that :-)
12:03:55  <Rubidium> like original != realistic
12:04:05  <Rubidium> thus, realistic properties aren't a goal
12:04:56  <planetmaker> quite so
12:05:23  <Terkhen> yes
12:05:40  <V453000> wanting such set to be realistic is imo pretty retarded ... the goals it has are fullfilled excellently :)
12:06:23  <V453000> btw I am really wondering what the realistic properties mean :D
12:07:32  <Terkhen> I was wondering the same thing
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12:09:35  <Terkhen> If I find the specs for the Locomotives in the Arctic and Tropical climates would you guys include "Realistic Locomotive Specs" for a parameter? <--- probably this
12:10:44  <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mainly had in mind.
12:10:50  <Rubidium> e.g. the "running cost" of the Manley-Morel is the combined salary of Christine Manley and Joe Morel
12:12:00  <planetmaker> :-D
12:12:09  <V453000> :D
12:12:14  <Terkhen> :D
12:12:25  <V453000> not asking about capacities :D
12:12:29  <planetmaker> <-- that's the maximum amount of parameters I can think of which might need some discussion at all. Or any other worth of discussion for default settings?
12:14:06  * Rubidium would dislike discussions about max_companies/clients/spectators. They'll always end up being: "maximum"
12:15:31  <planetmaker> ok. But I guess we can set the max_companies without discussion to 15 :-)
12:15:44  <Rubidium> or actually max_clients is the most important to not set to $MAX
12:16:00  <planetmaker> And clients like 32 or so
12:16:05  <planetmaker> then it's two per company
12:16:10  <planetmaker> Nothing which ever happens
12:16:26  <V453000> what is the max we ever had on PS? 24?
12:16:35  <V453000> yes :)
12:16:42  <planetmaker> <Webster> #openttdcoop Records: Clients: 24
12:16:44  <planetmaker> yes
12:17:26  * andythenorth considers hacking for mountains in tropic
12:17:34  <andythenorth> ^ patch worthy?
12:17:41  <planetmaker> rather farm them :-P
12:17:49  <planetmaker> what's your problem with tropical mountains?
12:17:53  <andythenorth> there aren't any
12:17:58  <planetmaker> not?
12:18:05  <V453000> kilimanjaro ? :p
12:18:08  <andythenorth> flat landscapes are boring
12:18:09  <planetmaker> I must do something wrong then ;-)
12:18:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can't generate a mountainous tropic map
12:19:33  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I made one some time ago
12:19:52  <Terkhen> I just inverted the desert/tropic generation, it wasn't very difficult
12:20:04  <Terkhen> it was just a hack to generate a single map, though
12:20:18  <andythenorth> that's what I'm going to do
12:20:29  <andythenorth> wonder if there's a better solution?
12:21:42  <Terkhen> a custom parameter to define how are desert/tropic tiles decided?
12:22:17  <andythenorth> yeah
12:22:17  <planetmaker> I'd rather de-couple the height generation from the climate completely.
12:22:22  <andythenorth> or that
12:22:31  <planetmaker> and just have different defaults for different climates
12:22:33  <andythenorth> I am trying to create tropical islands
12:22:39  <andythenorth> which are quite validly very mountainous
12:22:46  <planetmaker> yeah :-)
12:23:17  <Terkhen> IMO map generation needs a better solution than just adding new settings
12:23:27  <andythenorth> there are already too many in my view
12:23:30  <Terkhen> using scripts for it would be awesome
12:23:33  <andythenorth> variety generation was one step too far
12:23:41  <andythenorth> I no longer understand how to get a nice map
12:24:10  <planetmaker> <Terkhen> IMO map generation needs a better solution than just adding new settings <-- the whole settings need re-doing...
12:24:22  <planetmaker> I somehow never found enough time to continue with it...
12:24:49  <andythenorth> it's because you're making trains :P
12:24:53  <planetmaker> But world generation could probably be somewhat separate. But then settings, newgrfs, options and difficulty should go there, too
12:24:59  <andythenorth> we have plenty of trains already :D
12:25:11  <planetmaker> :-P
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12:25:37  <planetmaker> but... but... but... !
12:25:49  <planetmaker> (damn, where's the excuse ;-)
12:26:05  <Terkhen> that we have plenty of overcomplicated trains :)
12:26:55  <planetmaker> most try to be "realistic" ;-)
12:27:01  <planetmaker> or all except one?
12:27:28  <planetmaker> Maybe I should port the climate selection to the RVs :-)
12:27:40  <Terkhen> the long list of trains of most sets is what kept me from playing with trains along with FIRS
12:27:51  <planetmaker> :-)
12:28:00  <Terkhen> hmm... the RVs are identical between climates, except the buses
12:28:20  <Terkhen> well, not identical because there is a different one for each cargo, but they all share the same stats
12:28:33  <planetmaker> he
12:28:52  <planetmaker> well. Like wagons. I don't treat them per-climate either. Except some graphics
12:29:10  <Terkhen> yes, they are more akin to wagons than to train engines
12:30:18  <V453000> andythenorth: SmatZ made me a patch which made tropic generated just like normal arctic is ... therefore you get a lot of mountains, although you need to handle it with care because it is quite easy to eliminate desert completely
12:30:43  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <--- I played with this line to get different desert and tropic placed at different heights
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12:31:35  <Terkhen> for getting different heightmaps for each climates, you can hack the HeightMapSineTransform function in tgp.cpp (it has a climate switch)
12:32:10  <Ammler> maybe we should again make a game with all climates in one map :-)
12:32:39  <V453000> Ammler: ? :D
12:32:44  <V453000> sounds amazing
12:32:58  <Ammler> wwottdgd/1 was such one
12:33:58  <andythenorth> Terkhen: if you don't like too many choices, how come you use HEQS? :o
12:34:24  <Terkhen> because in most cases small trucks are not even a valid choice :)
12:34:49  <Terkhen> besides, I like big trucks :P
12:36:03  <planetmaker> :-P
12:40:19  <Ammler> Terkhen: if some newgrfs have too many or too complicated trains, then that is the issue of the GUI ;-)
12:41:01  <Terkhen> for too many trains that might be the case
12:41:18  <Terkhen> but the sets that annoy me the most are those that require special wagons for trains to work at all
12:41:26  <Terkhen> too complicated for me
12:41:50  <andythenorth> cabooses etc?
12:41:58  <Terkhen> yeah
12:44:00  <Terkhen> hmm...
12:44:19  <V453000> I think the equivalent for "caboose" as "shitbox" is quite appropriate :D
12:44:23  <Terkhen> no, I can't remember which set had them
12:44:38  <V453000> japanese set, NARS
12:45:02  <V453000> other sets have them, but you do not need to use them to run the trains
12:45:13  <Terkhen> yes, IIRC I tried NARS and 2cc, then old wagons new cargos and then I just played with road vehicles
12:45:25  <V453000> :D
12:45:56  <Ammler> 2cc shouldn't have that, afaik
12:46:18  <V453000> I think so, too
12:46:20  <Terkhen> lately I have been playing with trains, but now I don't even remember how to do simple junctions
12:46:38  <Terkhen> I don't remember which was my problem with 2cc, but it was not the requirement of additional wagons
12:47:09  <andythenorth> I flipped LT_TROPIC and LT_ARCTIC in landscape.cpp around L928
12:47:18  <andythenorth> I thought that would give me more mountainous maps
12:47:22  <andythenorth> it does a bit, but not much
12:47:50  <andythenorth> maybe I need 'landscape rough', but then my tropical islands have sucky coastlines
12:47:54  <Ammler> andythenorth: then you have temperate
12:48:03  <andythenorth> maybe I should just draw a height map :(
12:48:07  <Ammler> you should check teh patch I pasted
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12:48:26  * Terkhen ponders about map generation scripts
12:48:34  <Terkhen> they could have custom settings, as AIs do
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12:50:41  <V453000> andythenorth:
12:52:15  <Terkhen> hmm... let's play for a bit
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12:54:56  <andythenorth> map generation scripts - on bananas?
12:55:34  <Terkhen> I suppose that game should include some default scripts, but yes
12:56:22  <Terkhen> it could be the solution for river generation too
12:56:56  <andythenorth> V453000: that's definitely more mountainous
12:57:01  <V453000> :)
12:57:05  <V453000> it can be even more
12:57:10  <V453000> just like arctic is
12:57:30  <V453000> some people might complain about the lack of desert though
12:57:34  <andythenorth> wonder why my hack isn't producing that
12:57:51  * andythenorth goes exploring landscape.cpp
12:57:53  <V453000> with a nice combination of the variety distribution, you get both high mountains and desert, which is nice
12:58:29  <Terkhen> andythenorth: beware, here be dragons!
12:58:49  * andythenorth wonders what GenerateTerrain is doing
12:59:33  <andythenorth> and also what landscape 'steps' are
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13:02:24  <planetmaker> hm, yes. Map generation scripts would be good :-)
13:02:48  <planetmaker> I wonder whether per feature or as global script :-)
13:03:12  <andythenorth> would they generate maps directly, or an intermediate height map?
13:03:19  <andythenorth> i.e. is it a bitmap thing?
13:03:25  <planetmaker> feature as in land+sea, rivers, town placement, industry placement, tree placement, road placement, ...
13:03:40  <Terkhen> IMO direct maps, as height maps fail to display things such as rivers
13:04:17  <Terkhen> hmm... maybe three types; land+sea+rivers+trees, town placement, industry placement
13:04:21  <Rubidium> planetmaker: search the forum for Yexo's attempt; I seem to remember that it was too hellishly slow to generate a simple staircase map using a script
13:04:34  <Terkhen> hmm
13:04:48  <planetmaker> hm, too slow?
13:05:00  <planetmaker> too bad then.
13:05:11  <Yexo> that was setting the height of all tiles using squirrel
13:05:21  <Yexo> an approach using geogen would probably be fast enough
13:05:53  <Yexo> which is: provide an api which can change the heightmap in many ways, so don't let squirrel code set the height of individual tiles
13:07:06  <Yexo> is there a problem with or is that on my end?
13:07:48  <planetmaker> I can ssh it
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13:08:19  <Yexo> I can't, and I can't reach any of the web pages either
13:08:27  <planetmaker> www works, too
13:08:28  <Yexo> not www., not hg., not devs.
13:08:41  * Terkhen can access to it too
13:08:44  <andythenorth> I can reach it
13:08:54  <andythenorth>
13:09:16  <planetmaker> ^ :-) very good site
13:09:29  <SpComb> a trivialization of the issue
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13:09:52  <SpComb> various routing issues etc. can cause wide variations in reachability
13:11:38  * andythenorth fools with numbers in landscape.cpp
13:11:42  <andythenorth> no idea what they do
13:12:02  <Terkhen> smash them until you know :)
13:12:03  <Yexo> or should contain my latest attempt
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13:12:31  <Wolf01> moin
13:12:40  <andythenorth> GenerateTerrain accepts two parameters
13:12:46  <andythenorth> I can't figure out what they are
13:12:52  <andythenorth> I thought they were tile heights
13:12:57  <SpComb> magicnumber1, magicnumber2
13:12:59  <planetmaker> they certainly have names and types ;-)
13:13:30  * Terkhen tests
13:13:52  <andythenorth> so tile type and ...?
13:15:58  <planetmaker> a 'flag' which controls some behaviour
13:16:20  <retro> Yexo: second link 404 :(
13:16:46  <Yexo> as I said before I can't check reach anything on right now, so I can't check
13:17:21  <Terkhen> it's in the first one
13:17:50  <andythenorth> I thought filling these two tables with 0s might do something interesting, but they didn't :P static const byte _genterrain_tbl_1[5] = { 0, 0, 0, 0, 0  };
13:18:50  <SpComb> that should be tbl_1[POSITIVE_INTGER_FIVE]
13:18:55  <Yexo> andythenorth: GenerateTerrain is only used by the original map generator, not by tgp
13:18:56  <SpComb> magic numbers are bad mkay
13:19:01  <andythenorth> tada
13:19:21  * andythenorth goes exploring further
13:19:32  <Yexo> see GenerateTerrainPerlin for terragenesis
13:20:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21357 /trunk/src/network/core/ (packet.cpp packet.h tcp.cpp udp.cpp): -Codechange: make it possible to resize the packet's buffer
13:22:28  <Terkhen> geogen is quite nice
13:23:24  <Terkhen> it is mostly what I had in mind, but as an external app
13:24:37  * fjb dreams about rivers.
13:26:42  <planetmaker> *someone*...
13:26:59  <andythenorth> rivers might put an end to the 'bigger boats' question :P
13:27:24  <andythenorth> yay
13:27:37  * andythenorth has an extremely mountainous tropic map :D
13:28:01  <Terkhen> :)
13:28:21  <Terkhen> can you share the diff?
13:28:57  <andythenorth> it's a trivial change in tgp.cpp
13:29:08  <andythenorth> search for LT_TROPIC and flip with LT_ARCTIC
13:29:10  <fjb> Then you need some nice rivers for the valleys.
13:29:19  <Terkhen> okay :)
13:29:20  <andythenorth> I need to fool with desert tiles, there aren't any :P
13:29:28  <andythenorth> fjb: indeed ;)
13:30:30  <Terkhen> hmm... me and my stupid memory, I remember trying to code rivers some time ago, encountering a big problem and forgetting about this, but I don't remember which was the problem
13:30:46  <planetmaker> The terraforming automatically for slopes?
13:31:27  <planetmaker> A year ago or so I had some patches to that end, too ;-)
13:31:33  * Terkhen goes to the logs
13:32:16  <planetmaker> <-- more like two years ago...
13:32:59  <planetmaker> <-- with results like these...
13:33:09  <planetmaker> and sometimes an assert as cream on top ;-)
13:33:30  * andythenorth produced an exciting explosion of the game
13:33:48  <fjb> Cute river.
13:34:57  <andythenorth> do river generation algorithms start at source, or shoreline?
13:35:09  <Terkhen> hmmm... I have no idea of what was wrong with mine
13:35:25  <fjb> Flooding too much?
13:35:27  <Terkhen> andythenorth: my implementation started on source, you could create rivers in the SE
13:35:35  <Terkhen> nope, they were single tile rivers
13:35:47  <Terkhen> single tile width*
13:35:50  <andythenorth> are there no advantages to starting at shoreline?
13:35:53  <andythenorth> and working up?
13:36:29  * Terkhen recodes the patch
13:36:35  <planetmaker> :-D
13:36:45  <Terkhen> but if I deleted it I probably had a reason... stupid memory
13:37:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21358 /trunk/src/ (25 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make some network function names conform to coding style
13:37:04  <planetmaker> Starting at the shoreline has the advantage that you make sure that they'll have a valid sink
13:37:36  <Terkhen> yeah, that makes sense
13:38:03  <andythenorth> seems easier somehow
13:38:07  <planetmaker> backdraw: you cannot have them end in a lake or at the map border...
13:38:16  <andythenorth> can have them end in a lake
13:38:22  <andythenorth> but not a lake above sea level
13:38:23  <planetmaker> but that'd be acceptable.
13:38:37  <planetmaker> yes. Other things are 'seas' in this context :-)
13:38:47  <planetmaker> lake = above sea level. Sea = sea level.
13:38:52  <planetmaker> For easier terminology
13:39:01  <andythenorth> handle generating lakes separately :P
13:39:15  <andythenorth> I think relying on rivers to fill them in is unlikely
13:39:44  <planetmaker> I think the first point would be to actually place them.
13:39:50  <Terkhen> that's what I was thinking, generate lakes first, then select appropiate starting points for rivers from both the sea and the lakes
13:39:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21359 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [MSU] -Codechange: "merge" r21358
13:40:05  <planetmaker> A 2nd step would be to actually make them 'lively'. That's something entirely else.
13:40:05  <Terkhen> but I have no idea on how to choose good places for the lakes
13:40:29  <planetmaker> Terkhen, random?
13:40:35  <planetmaker> and possibly some shore distance
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13:40:45  <andythenorth> it seems conceptually quite easy to generate a reverse path for rivers, just pick from random(8), and see if the tile height >= this tile
13:40:52  <planetmaker> yes
13:40:59  <andythenorth> random(8) for direction that is
13:41:12  <Terkhen> lively rivers could easily be used to wreak havoc
13:41:23  <planetmaker> yes and no :-)
13:41:27  <andythenorth> could cycle an array of 0-7, and if all neighbouring tile heights are < this tile height, stop building river
13:41:35  * andythenorth is thinking aloud
13:41:46  <Terkhen> my implementation used a greedy approach; slopes (in the correct direction) always had a greater chance of being chosen than flat tiles
13:41:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the difficulty is the path finding for rivers so that it looks nice
13:41:58  <Terkhen> slopes in the incorrect direction could not be chosen
13:42:06  <andythenorth> does it matter if it looks nice?
13:42:24  <Terkhen> yeah, for starters I would settle for "it somewhat works"
13:42:28  <planetmaker> I chose direction somewhat randomly. With a preference to continue straight. And disallowing descend
13:42:35  <andythenorth> would need to not do stupid things like run along side slopes
13:42:48  <planetmaker> Or actually ascend. I think my latest attempt was to go down from the mountains
13:42:52  <Terkhen> oh, right, mine also favored continuing in the same direction
13:43:19  <planetmaker> and then I added some crude detection to not run into the same river (e.g. no loops)
13:43:25  <andythenorth> so store the previous direction, then random(that or some other number)
13:43:28  <planetmaker> if so, I aborted and started anew, I think
13:43:30  <Terkhen> oh, yeah
13:43:32  <Terkhen> that was the problem
13:43:35  <Terkhen> loops :D
13:43:49  <andythenorth> rivers do close themselves off :D
13:44:18  <Terkhen> hmm... how to avoid loops?
13:44:57  <andythenorth> flood fill the loop - lake
13:45:25  <Terkhen> hmm... any solution for loops would require to store all used tiles somewhere
13:45:41  <Terkhen> then you could either avoid reusing them or detect the collision and fill the lake accordingly
13:46:15  <andythenorth> loops might not be the worst problem
13:46:23  <andythenorth> me is reminded of 'snake' game
13:46:41  <Terkhen> yeah, I managed to use the lively rivers patch to play snake :D
13:47:05  <Terkhen> what problem are you referring to?
13:47:05  <planetmaker> lool
13:50:26  * andythenorth just accidentally made a fjord generator
13:50:38  <Terkhen> :O
13:50:42  <planetmaker> that is nothing bad. Keep it!
13:50:46  <Terkhen> screenshot?
13:50:52  <planetmaker> Those are my favourite maps after all :-)
13:51:35  <planetmaker> pic or it didn't happen? ;-)
13:52:21  <andythenorth> I'm trying :P
13:54:33  <andythenorth> server seems to be a bit slow
13:54:39  <andythenorth> it's incomplete...but
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13:58:06  <andythenorth> I swapped around some of the arctic and tropic sine wave generation code, which seems to produce nice rifts :)
14:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> in other words, you have no clue what you're doing :p
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14:01:09  <V453000> fjord generator xD
14:01:25  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: quite right
14:01:26  <Terkhen> :)
14:01:53  <andythenorth> whatever I've done is also producing concentric rings of mountains
14:03:47  <andythenorth> this is interesting
14:04:00  <V453000> :D
14:04:01  <V453000> nice
14:04:21  <norbert79> One ring to rule them all...
14:04:59  <andythenorth> should I have diffed the fjord thing? :o
14:05:02  <andythenorth> too late :P
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14:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this type of rings happen when you emphasise one frequency too much
14:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's like throwing a stone in the water
14:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> you know what's weird: whenever i see one of the non-greeen elevation maps, i feel like a colourblind person :p
14:07:34  <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Which is good to be if you want to solve a Rubik's cube
14:07:53  <andythenorth> you mean not everyone uses purple minmap :O
14:08:28  <fjb> Vulcano islands.
14:09:27  <V453000> I use purple too :p
14:09:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21360 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Fix [FS#4281]: crash when randomised action2 was used when resolving the image to draw in the buy menu
14:13:00  <Terkhen> you are the only two to my knowledge :)
14:13:22  * Terkhen is happy with dark green
14:13:29  * andythenorth ponders landscape generation
14:13:30  <Rubidium> mine is purple as well...
14:13:43  <Rubidium> ... out of laziness to restore it after testing that patch
14:14:11  <Rubidium> I actually don't like the purple, so that says something about how often I've used the smallmap recently
14:14:38  <andythenorth> do any of us actually play the game at all
14:14:38  <andythenorth> ?
14:15:11  * andythenorth copies and pastes random bits of tgp.cpp
14:15:42  <Rubidium> qutiamnehr oi;se jtgvae; jeaiobpeawogh nscp jqnhapj msarpgj asfpba
14:15:49  <Rubidium> ^ random bits from tgp.cpp :)
14:16:26  <andythenorth> Rubidium: that doesn't compile
14:16:29  <andythenorth> don't know why
14:16:33  <andythenorth> what's is supposed to do?
14:16:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21361 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make sure the client is listening, or rather receiving, our frames
14:17:17  <Rubidium> andythenorth: neither do I; they're just random bits from tgp.cpp
14:17:37  <Rubidium> given enough monkeys you'll eventually get the thing you want though
14:17:58  <andythenorth> do amazon sell monkeys?
14:18:19  <V453000> :D
14:18:25  <V453000> you will need a lot of them I fear
14:18:50  <andythenorth> I am trying to create landscapes with:
14:18:59  <andythenorth> - quite a lot of very high mountains
14:19:02  <andythenorth> - some very flat areas
14:19:11  <andythenorth> ( level 1)
14:19:13  <Rubidium> hmm... actually, it already works to andythenorth's wishes (according to Tegmark)
14:19:19  <andythenorth> no high plateaus
14:20:19  * fjb plays the game but is not developing it or any extension to it. :)
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14:21:10  <Belugas> hello
14:21:17  <fjb> Moin Belugas
14:22:27  <Belugas> hey jfb :)
14:22:34  <Belugas> hem...
14:22:37  <Belugas> bjf
14:22:40  <Belugas> bfj
14:22:40  * fjb throws a snowball at Belugas. :)
14:22:59  <Belugas> fjb
14:23:00  <Belugas> ha...
14:23:12  <Belugas> thanks :)
14:23:15  <fjb> :)
14:23:20  <Belugas> straighten up the mind...
14:23:22  <Belugas> no...
14:23:24  <Belugas> COFFEE!!!
14:23:36  <fjb> With a nice snowball.
14:23:53  <__ln__> "An Internet user used an intercontinental weapon against another!"
14:24:14  * andythenorth bleargh
14:24:17  <fjb> Oh, oh...
14:24:24  <andythenorth> photoshop might be a much better landscape generator :P
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14:28:59  <fjb> Photshop ate andythenorth...
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14:30:57  <andythenorth> maybe if I did the actual maths :P
14:38:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you understand tgp.cpp?
14:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> not in its entirety...
14:38:42  <andythenorth> ho hum
14:38:54  <andythenorth> I've done enough fooling with numbers to see what happens
14:39:04  <andythenorth> it's a monkey method :P
14:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i know it's a fairly common random generator called "perlin noise" adapted to 2-D maps
14:42:45  <andythenorth> hmm
14:42:53  <andythenorth> the challenge for me seems to be:
14:43:41  <andythenorth> where there are high points, make the surrounding gradient steep
14:43:58  <andythenorth> where there are low points, compress large areas of surrounding tiles to similar height
14:44:13  <andythenorth> and high points should be small (mountain peaks)
14:51:36  <andythenorth> hmm]
14:51:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to apply a non-linear scale afterwards to achieve that
14:51:59  <andythenorth> what I want is something like a spline, which would form the topographical profile (if side projected)
14:52:20  <andythenorth> then project that across the map
14:52:28  <andythenorth> with random variation for each row
14:52:28  <Eddi|zuHause> like log(x) will emphasise changes on the low levels, and exp(x) will emphasise changes on high levels
14:53:08  <andythenorth> ok
14:53:19  <andythenorth> I don't know how to implement that, but it helps
14:53:30  <andythenorth> the goal isn't quite realism
14:53:35  <andythenorth> but something like
14:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause> well, applying such a scale is really simple: for (each point on the map) { point.height = scale(point.height); }
14:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause> where you can replace "scale" with almost any mathematical function
14:56:44  <andythenorth> interesting
14:56:54  <andythenorth> wish my maths was better :P
14:59:43  <Eddi|zuHause> one useful to know thing is that tgp is one of the really few parts of the game that can safely use floating point maths
15:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> because it doesn't have to be synchronised over the network
15:00:46  <andythenorth> useful
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15:06:07  * andythenorth has just made bolivia
15:06:16  <andythenorth> low plateaus, steep mountains, high plateaus
15:06:30  <andythenorth> :P
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15:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you need more height levels for really interesting maps
15:10:11  <Eddi|zuHause> there is an overflow routine in tgp that cuts off the really high mountains, creating plateaus
15:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> to prevent this cutting off, you should make sure your scale function returns values between 0 and 16
15:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> where "16" is actually "16<<4", because tgp internals use some custom fixed point maths
15:12:59  <andythenorth> I have just managed to get more interesting mountains with a simple hack
15:13:00  <andythenorth> hmm
15:14:02  <andythenorth> maybe not
15:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> "simple hacks" tend to break easily :p
15:14:28  <andythenorth> crazy fjords are back :P
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15:15:13  <andythenorth>
15:15:33  <Eddi|zuHause> one other maths point: the scale function better be monotonous ;)
15:15:39  <andythenorth> ho hum
15:15:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: most of this mostly goes over my head
15:15:57  <andythenorth> I can do some kinds of maths, not others
15:16:05  <andythenorth> trigonometry, no problem
15:16:11  <andythenorth> imaginary numbers, matrices
15:16:24  <andythenorth> but not proper algorithmic stuff
15:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> really it's the only trick to map generation. finding a such a function and adjusting parameters to get pleasant results
15:17:54  <andythenorth> hmm
15:18:03  <andythenorth> well I have a better understanding of what I'm trying to do
15:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> look at the patch that implemented the feature variations
15:18:16  <andythenorth> 1. compress low points to create coastal plains
15:18:27  <andythenorth> 2. dump some of the mid-heights downwards to create ravines
15:18:34  <andythenorth> 3. leave mountain tops small and sharp
15:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> read up on convex and concave functions :)
15:19:52  <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you want such a level of detail you are probably better with using a heightmap generator and loading it into OpenTTD
15:20:08  <Terkhen> loading the heightmap, I mean
15:20:50  <andythenorth> pulling one tile height down must pull down the neighbours?
15:20:57  <andythenorth> to prevent discontinuities?
15:24:58  <andythenorth> my hack is somewhat working
15:26:11  <andythenorth> Terkhen:
15:27:13  <Terkhen> let's see
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15:28:50  <andythenorth> I don't know if it's any better than just using temperate routine
15:28:52  <Ammler> andythenorth: add .diff to mime type txt/plain
15:29:14  <andythenorth> Ammler: done
15:29:32  <Ammler> hehe
15:30:27  <Ammler> oh, it is text/plain
15:30:40  <andythenorth> done
15:30:43  <Ammler> :-)
15:31:38  <Ammler> that looks much more complicated than the smatzypatch
15:31:59  <andythenorth> the hack produces at least 'spinal' mountain ranges like this one
15:32:05  <andythenorth> while also leaving some desert on the map
15:32:14  <andythenorth> I think patching landscape.cpp could adjust desert amount
15:32:34  <Ammler> and you like flatter arctic?
15:32:58  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the results are nice at first glance
15:33:20  <andythenorth> Ammler: side effect :P
15:33:27  <andythenorth> could be valid though
15:33:30  <andythenorth> tundra :P
15:33:30  <Terkhen> I have to go now, I'll finish checking it later
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16:52:18  <George> Hi. How do OTTD defines a number of industries of the type on the map during map generation and during game play?
16:52:44  <George> Would it be possible for industry to specify the change for its type
16:53:32  <retro> What is --enable-dedicated configuration option for ?
16:53:43  <retro> Found in Ammler openttdcoop script.
16:54:01  <George> I mean, for example, if petrol station is an industry, it should appear regarding to ammount of towns and houses, and not industries
16:55:26  <George> So, having many low number of industries and large number of towns, it would take many industry slots, leaving not much to other industries types
16:55:47  <planetmaker> you can limit the number of industries per town...
16:56:24  <George> But if it would be possible to increase the number of industries on the map with industry type definition, better balance ci\ould be provided
16:56:50  <George> planetmaker: I do not need to limit the number of industries per town
16:56:56  <planetmaker> eh? How so? You mean to have two industry types be a petrol station? How does that help?
16:57:10  <George> Not two types
16:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> <retro> What is --enable-dedicated configuration option for ? <-- it allows building without graphics library present
16:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause> graphics output like SDL or GDI
16:59:15  <retro> Eddi|zuHause: thx
16:59:19  <George> only 1 - an industry
16:59:39  <George> But that does not affect number of indutries on the map
17:01:04  <George> I mean not the actual number of industries on the map, bat the limit that controls appearing of an industry (in game or while map generation)
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17:02:26  <planetmaker> Well. Properties 17 and 18 set the relative probability for industries
17:02:50  <planetmaker> You could probably modify the relative probability of petrol stations via action06 and as a function of a few game properties.
17:02:58  <planetmaker> Not sure whether the number of towns is accessible...
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17:08:00  <andythenorth> how many height levels are there (trunk)
17:08:01  <andythenorth> ?
17:08:20  <frosch123> 0 - 15
17:08:56  <frosch123> George: maybe you are better off with houses then
17:10:16  <Terkhen> from my early tests with the more height levels patch, anything beyond 32 was way too much IMO
17:11:13  <frosch123> Terkhen: not if you play on 2kx2k and limit the local differences
17:12:23  <Terkhen> although... IIRC my mars heightmap looked awesome with 64 height levels
17:12:32  <Terkhen> and it was 2k x 2k
17:13:15  <Terkhen> actually, that heightmap is the cause of my interest in the patch :)
17:17:13  <planetmaker> if it only were cleaner...
17:17:18  <b_jonas> 64 height levels? isn't that a bit high?
17:17:41  <planetmaker> last time I looked it looked like a big mess of patches thrown together without any cleaning applied after the first hack-together
17:17:54  <Terkhen> andythenorth: your patch looks nice with 66% water
17:18:00  <planetmaker> But I'd appreciate more height levels a lot
17:18:08  <Belugas> for some people , there is no notion of "not enugh"  still want more
17:18:13  <Terkhen> planetmaker: that was the cause of my loss of interest in the patch
17:18:46  * andythenorth has experimented with further patches
17:18:55  <Terkhen> nothing made sense, and back then I did not know if it was all of OpenTTD code or not
17:19:06  <andythenorth> but has a screaming child who doesn't care about map gen :P
17:19:11  <andythenorth> back later :P
17:19:17  <Terkhen> later andythenorth
17:19:38  <planetmaker> see you, andythenorth
17:19:43  <Terkhen> luckily I kept up with the rest of the code :)
17:19:52  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
17:22:39  <Terkhen> back then I wanted to do a mars conversion; graphics, industries that made sense in such setting and so on
17:23:00  <Terkhen> but I never got too far besides a few ideas
17:23:16  <planetmaker> well. There's one which 'just' needs finishing
17:23:36  <planetmaker> And my only heightmap on bananas: guess what it is :-)
17:23:36  <Terkhen> :P
17:23:50  <planetmaker> nasa's DEM of whole Mars
17:24:27  <George> frosch123: They are houses, but there are free industry slots, so I was thinking if it was a better chiose
17:25:32  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I was trying to do one with mars global surveyor data, but the results always came up pixelated
17:26:02  <planetmaker> Well. I took one of their giant false-colour elevation images and adopted the palette
17:26:36  <Terkhen> heh, it's no wonder that it came up pixelated
17:26:45  <Terkhen> I found it, it seems that I was working with jpg
17:26:45  <planetmaker> :-)
17:28:35  <Terkhen> it seems that it wasn't my fault, NASAView only allowed to export data as jpg and gif
17:29:15  <andythenorth>
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17:29:50  <planetmaker> hm, I could swear I found png.... not sure though
17:30:58  <Terkhen> I liked how it looked with more height levels + bigger maps, let's see if I can get a screenshot
17:31:18  <Terkhen> hmmm... mhl comes with a bash script to apply all patches
17:31:44  <Terkhen> 34 patches, wow
17:31:54  <andythenorth> Terkhen: ^ that one's a different set of rules
17:32:09  <andythenorth> due to something I just figure out, it will probably be limited to about 12 height levels
17:32:13  <Terkhen> hmmm
17:32:35  <Terkhen> that's a big canyon
17:33:23  <planetmaker> yes. And some conditional, some not etc. pp. That makes it incredibly hard to keep track
17:33:29  <andythenorth> it dumps anything at height level 0.7 down to 0.1 during generation
17:33:40  <andythenorth> it has some interesting effects
17:33:40  <andythenorth> I quite like it
17:33:51  <andythenorth> not realistic, but would make for interesting gameplay
17:34:30  <Terkhen> it does not seem that the mhl patches have any logical order
17:34:36  <andythenorth> also, it we did want would be a good generator of voids for lakes
17:34:36  <andythenorth> but it limits max height of mountains (I only just worked out why)
17:34:41  <planetmaker> agreed, Terkhen
17:35:17  <planetmaker> that's when I gave up after reading thoroughly 3 of them or so
17:36:30  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I wonder if it would be feasible to make those things configurable, and if it would be too confusing to bother with it
17:37:18  <Terkhen> IIRC back then when I was involved in mhl I insisted on the need of having a good documentation, but I did not know how to organize that mess either
17:37:48  <Terkhen> now it is so big that it might be impossible to reorder it without rewriting everything from scratch
17:37:49  <planetmaker> there's some within the bash script....
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17:38:18  <Terkhen> it's IMO not a bad thing; I had to do that for the rv acceleration patch and the code was way better the second time
17:38:38  <Terkhen> but given their reaction to suggested small changes I doubt that they would do it
17:38:39  <planetmaker> yes.
17:38:47  <planetmaker> and yes :-(
17:39:18  <planetmaker> But experience on my own, but also what I see done to other patches: Rewriting it at least once is necessary for things like these
17:39:24  <Terkhen> I remember something like "I'm not going to change this patch because it will cause rejects on all of the other code" about the terraforming patch they splitted first
17:39:35  <planetmaker> The first hack gets the path layed out. The 2nd try cleans up
17:39:45  <Terkhen> yeah
17:40:20  <Terkhen> you can avoid part of the problem if you start with a patch queue at the beginning, but you will have to rewrite some parts and move others anyways
17:40:32  <planetmaker> what you quoted is a sure path to "won't be implemented this way" most often ;-)
17:40:39  <planetmaker> yes
17:40:59  <planetmaker> I usually re-write the whole patch queue then nevertheless
17:41:14  <planetmaker> By having the "old" patches open in another editor window for reference
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17:41:39  <planetmaker> as I usually get some idea of how things could be better grouped into patches, too
17:41:39  <Terkhen> heh, I have done that for three times already with the partial refit patch
17:41:44  <planetmaker> :-)
17:42:05  <Terkhen> since I don't want to do it a fourth time, I'm taking a break from it
17:42:41  <planetmaker> I think - and it's hard to come to that conclusion, if not really involved - most people don't have the slightest idea how much of this re-writing is going on before something bigger gets implemented
17:43:31  <planetmaker> it was also interesting for me to see that the same thing continued "behind the scenes" :-)
17:43:58  <Terkhen> I agree; I had no idea of where I was getting myself when I started the rv acceleration patch
17:44:09  <planetmaker> "normal" patch writers have no idea how critical devs are with their own implementations ;-)
17:45:01  <planetmaker> and how many things get then also put off - for one reason or another. And may it be "ah, rewritten enough, I don't feel like doing it yet again"
17:45:49  <planetmaker> on the other hand: it's clear that the code base only remains managable because of this rigor.
17:46:41  <Terkhen> yeah, my friends from university wonder why I'm so annoyingly nitpicking with everything related to code now :P
17:46:50  <planetmaker> :-P
17:47:28  <planetmaker> it's indeed a BIG difference to work on something with many contributors (and customers). Or on something for your own leasure (only)
17:47:41  <planetmaker> "customers"
17:48:20  <planetmaker> users would be the proper word :-)
17:49:20  <Terkhen> yes, it's a big change of mind
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18:02:27  <Xaroth> hm, how hard would it be to have a rcon/console command being able to toggle the visibility of various UI elements?
18:02:50  <Xaroth> like, being able to make screenshots on the server without a chat window and the build icons up top
18:03:53  <planetmaker> Xaroth, it rather should be an argument for the screenshot argument
18:03:58  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
18:04:05  <planetmaker> like screenshot no_windows blubber.png
18:04:14  <planetmaker> instead of screenshot no_con blubber.png
18:04:52  <planetmaker> so doing something along those lines might work
18:05:01  <Xaroth> that would suffice 100%
18:05:16  * Xaroth has crazy ideas
18:05:19  <planetmaker> There's a function called DrawEssentialWindows (something similar) which puts them into place
18:05:21  * Xaroth blames planetmaker
18:05:39  * planetmaker can still live with that blame HAHAHA!
18:09:11  * andythenorth has two unrelated ideas for map gen
18:09:30  <andythenorth> 1. can there be zones of the map, which apply different land gen routines
18:09:54  <andythenorth> 2. can we solve rivers + landscape in one, by having a terraforming+river placing routine
18:10:31  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
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18:10:46  <b_jonas> andythenorth: how would you make the height at the borders of the zones match?
18:10:55  <b_jonas> also, why?
18:11:37  <andythenorth> Terkhen:
18:11:46  <andythenorth> that's the one that generates epic canyons
18:12:01  <andythenorth> would be very cool to fill them with water, except there are no exits :P
18:12:17  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:12:44  <Terkhen> andythenorth: would it make sense to make values like sine_lower_limit and the different fheight checks configurable?
18:12:59  <andythenorth> almost certainly
18:12:59  <andythenorth> I was just hacking
18:13:00  <andythenorth> I don't know what they do really
18:13:11  <andythenorth> I don't understand what the sine function is doing
18:13:31  * Terkhen does not understand it either
18:13:51  <andythenorth> I was intending this as serious patch effort, just wanted to see if better tropic maps can be generated
18:13:52  <andythenorth> I think they can :)
18:14:00  <andythenorth> I can probably hack at arctic a bit too
18:14:06  <andythenorth> was / wasn't /s
18:14:51  <Terkhen> the problem is that such settings are probably too advanced, and IMO they shouldn't even be present at the world generation window
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18:15:19  <andythenorth> no
18:15:19  <andythenorth> but if there was a scripted system it might be interesting
18:15:41  <Terkhen> it seems that there was already an attempt in that direction, the scripts were too slow
18:15:58  <andythenorth> I wonder about approaching this very differently: let the world gen generate plateaus at different heights with some small noise, then walk rivers back from coast into them
18:16:39  <andythenorth> with the river generator pulling down tile heights as it goes
18:16:49  <andythenorth> could be slow on a big map :P
18:18:32  <andythenorth> the heightmap generation relies on grayscale?
18:19:49  <andythenorth> (i.e. when using bitmaps)
18:20:34  <Terkhen> hmm... openttd generates some kind of internal heightmap as an intermediate step of map generation?
18:21:01  <andythenorth> I was wondering if it could be taught to understand RGB, thereby making rivers etc possible from bitmaps
18:21:22  <planetmaker> hm... interesting. Yes. It could be taught
18:21:33  <planetmaker> after all it handles 32bpp blitter even
18:21:51  <andythenorth> use R channel for terrain, B for water
18:21:52  <planetmaker> and IIRC 24bpp screenshots from that
18:21:54  <andythenorth> save green
18:22:04  <planetmaker> use G for land ;-)
18:22:08  <planetmaker> It's more logical
18:22:13  <andythenorth> not on mars :P
18:22:18  <planetmaker> :-P
18:22:21  <andythenorth> anyway, only one value would be needed for water
18:22:25  <planetmaker> point taken and accepted
18:22:34  <Terkhen> hmm...
18:22:55  <andythenorth> the 'make a river generator' approach seems more logical, but no-one succeeded yet :P
18:23:39  <Terkhen> andythenorth: did you try geogen?
18:23:42  <andythenorth> nope
18:23:58  <andythenorth> it's squirrel?
18:24:05  <planetmaker> Terkhen, do you have a link for that. I earlier did a quick google search, but that seemed to turn out only crap
18:24:13  <Terkhen> hmm... a shame, it's only for windows
18:24:24  <planetmaker> he :-(
18:24:26  <Terkhen> <--- it's also in CommanderZ signature
18:24:43  <planetmaker> thanks
18:24:59  <Terkhen> the scripts are in squirrel, and it runs fairly fast
18:25:02  <andythenorth>
18:25:25  <Terkhen> yes, that output is helpful when trying the scripts
18:25:54  <planetmaker> hm, I have the feeling it was once called differently. I recall that page but not the name
18:26:22  <Terkhen> the revision log makes reference to a river branch
18:27:06  <Terkhen> oh, it has a makefile for g++
18:27:27  <planetmaker> :-)
18:28:16  <andythenorth> seems there are quite a few options we could try
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18:28:32  <andythenorth> what are the goals? :)
18:29:53  <planetmaker> nice and easy map generation
18:30:04  <andythenorth> and what kind of maps?
18:30:09  <andythenorth> I have some personal tastes....
18:30:22  <planetmaker> good for you. Patch writer has the first call :-P
18:31:52  <Terkhen> the makefile fails for me, but since almost everything fails under mingw/msys I wouldn't take it as a real error
18:31:57  <Terkhen> does it work for  you?
18:32:09  <planetmaker> anyway... sports, so probably see you tomorrow or much later
18:32:22  <Terkhen> see you planetmaker
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18:33:56  <planetmaker> btw, Terkhen: Makefile worked with LOTS of warnings though
18:34:09  <planetmaker> resulting binary seems ok (asking me for script)
18:34:20  <Terkhen> I get a lot of warnings, but it fails to compile squirrel
18:34:29  <Terkhen> probably an issue with mingw
18:34:43  <Terkhen> does it compile only the command line utility?
18:34:52  <Terkhen> or is the fancy 3D viewer available too?
18:34:59  <planetmaker> dunno, I guess. I had only command line.
18:35:05  <planetmaker> Now... I must run :-)
18:35:19  <Terkhen> see you :)
18:39:19  <Alberth> 'better' ?      and they are so nicely flat
18:40:53  <Alberth> I was intending this as serious patch effort, just wanted to see if better tropic maps can be generated <-- that line I commented on :)
18:41:36  <andythenorth> better is subjective :P
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18:43:18  <Alberth> I also have had the idea of adding colour to the height map to add information :)
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21362 /trunk/src/lang/ (slovenian.txt spanish.txt vietnamese.txt):
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 28 changes by ntadej
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
18:43:42  <Terkhen> :)
18:43:59  <Alberth> currently, you can throw in a colour picture too, don't exactly know how it computes the height then
18:44:22  <Terkhen> is there a "standard" format for heightmaps with that kind of extra information? maybe some applications already work with something like that
18:44:45  * andythenorth wonders if map gen can be taught presets
18:44:58  <andythenorth> so there's fewer options
18:45:04  <Alberth> I have also been thinking about adding 'spots' for eg cities/industries, etc
18:45:26  <Alberth> in the end you'd have an extra file with the additional data, perhaps
18:45:39  <andythenorth> e.g. a menu with 'mountains', 'islands', 'plains', 'mixed'
18:45:44  <Terkhen> <-- did you check this?
18:45:46  <andythenorth> how many landscape types are there really?
18:46:01  <Terkhen> it had some kind of format for water/towns
18:46:30  <Alberth> what does this menu do?, ie with a flat height map + islands?
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18:47:31  <andythenorth> no height map
18:47:39  <andythenorth> this just affects the generator
18:47:45  <andythenorth> I've been fooling around with it today :P
18:48:16  <andythenorth> means some of the other options get hidden
18:48:17  <Alberth> oh, you're an expert already :p
18:48:41  <andythenorth> an expert at bad hacks
18:50:25  <andythenorth> aim would be to hide 'smoothness', 'variety distribution' and 'terrain type'
18:50:56  <Terkhen> it's impossible to hide settings
18:51:06  <Alberth> yeah, I can imagine such a menu could be useful. Why not make a series of buttons, just like the difficulty window with some presets. When you click 'islands', it sets the other values
18:51:19  <Terkhen> the avalanche of complaints would force you to put them visible again :P
18:51:29  <andythenorth> bah
18:51:36  <Terkhen> but I like your preset idea
18:51:54  <andythenorth> it would be more than presets on the other menus
18:51:59  <andythenorth> it would need some more work in tgp.cpp :P
18:52:03  <Terkhen> it would make the map generation way simpler, and if anyone wants to change it he can chose "custom"
18:52:40  <andythenorth> I realised finding a nice map is putting me off playing the game
18:52:43  <Terkhen> and since the custom option would be meant to be more advanced, we could add a lot of complicated stuff there, such as settings for those values that andythenorth was tweaking
18:53:00  <Terkhen> andythenorth: that happens for me too
18:53:05  <andythenorth> the goal wouldn't be realism necessarily, but certain kinds of gameplay
18:53:20  <Alberth> sir B will be happy :)
18:53:36  <andythenorth> if I want to play a mountain map, I want big valleys to bridge, hard slopes that need switchbacks, and towns that go up and down slopes
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18:54:26  <Alberth> yeah, having a number of pre-defined parameter combinations would be useful
18:54:29  <andythenorth> if 'plains' is obvious and can already be mostly done :P
18:54:45  <andythenorth> I thought of experimenting to try and make a nice rolling landscape in waves
18:57:58  <andythenorth> I think these would be hard coded in tcp.cpp
18:58:10  <andythenorth> adding a layer for scripting / extending them might be too much
18:58:53  <Alberth> sounds fine by me.
18:58:54  <andythenorth> would they be climate specific?
18:59:25  <andythenorth> rolling landscape :D
18:59:25  <andythenorth>
18:59:37  <Alberth> perhaps disable certain presets in certain climates?
19:00:05  <andythenorth> I think it might be more a case of looking at landscape.cpp
19:00:20  <andythenorth> climates might need tile type code to handle each preset
19:00:58  <Alberth> you're the expert :D
19:01:08  <andythenorth> frick
19:01:17  <andythenorth> if I'm the expert, we're all screwed
19:01:34  <Alberth> not with industries and making pixels :)
19:02:03  <Terkhen> I don't think the presets should be limited to some climates
19:02:13  <Terkhen> let the user try and worry about that
19:02:15  <Alberth> islands in tropical?
19:02:22  <andythenorth> oh yes
19:02:24  <andythenorth> definitely :D
19:02:26  <Terkhen> yes
19:02:56  <andythenorth> Terkhen: this isn't a small thing I'm proposing :P
19:02:58  <andythenorth> well, not if it also handles the amount of water
19:03:05  <andythenorth> should it handle the amount of water?
19:03:13  <Terkhen> yes
19:03:22  <andythenorth> I'm not sure
19:03:29  <Terkhen> why not?
19:03:41  <andythenorth> I don't know :)
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19:04:06  <andythenorth> on a small map (I play small maps) it's fine for the preset to handle it
19:04:28  <andythenorth> but on a big map, player might want, say, mountains or plains, with a big sea between them
19:04:45  <Terkhen> you can't do that with the current settings
19:04:56  <andythenorth> but I'm all in favour of reducing number of menu choices
19:05:13  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I can control sea level though....which has similar effect
19:05:18  <Terkhen> you will always get similar results (also in size) for the same settings but increased size
19:05:26  <Terkhen> for example, the island sizes will be similar
19:06:14  <andythenorth> but more of them...?
19:06:18  <Terkhen> I think that the variety distribution setting might help with that, but only up to a point
19:06:29  <Terkhen> yes, you will get more of them, but it's difficult to get a big ocean for example
19:06:32  *** retro [] has joined #openttd
19:06:37  <Terkhen> the islands are equally distributed everywhere
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19:07:16  * Alberth ponders adding a global offset according to some pattern
19:07:25  <andythenorth> hmm
19:08:29  <andythenorth> I'll start writing some kind of spec
19:08:31  <Alberth> z += -2 + abs(x - X/2) * 4            where x if the x tile coord, and X is the length of the map in x direction
19:08:38  <Alberth> s/if/is/
19:08:46  <andythenorth> what landscape types are interesting to play?
19:09:42  <Rubidium> toyland
19:09:54  <andythenorth> indeed
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19:13:24  <andythenorth> toyland should be very square
19:13:47  <Alberth> islands: many small islands, some small islands, some big islands
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19:16:03  <Alberth> all land (perhaps a problem with oilrigs?): flat, mountains, and 2 in-between perhaps
19:17:13  <andythenorth> should I even consider future case where rivers might be available?
19:17:38  <Alberth> current tropical is mostly flat, with a few heights
19:17:52  <andythenorth> mine isn't any more :)
19:17:58  <Alberth> how do rivers change the world?
19:18:15  <andythenorth> 'river delta'
19:18:21  <andythenorth> could be a landscape
19:19:20  <Alberth> sure, possibly even without rivers
19:20:33  <andythenorth> so n types of islands
19:20:48  <Katje_> is there an easy way to find out which train/s call at a station ?
19:20:49  <andythenorth> 'just mountains', 'mountains and plains', 'just plains'
19:20:57  <Terkhen> I'm not sure if it's possible to do all of this without some kind of script
19:21:08  <Alberth> just keep it simple with a few options
19:21:19  <andythenorth> Terkhen: 'many if statements' :P
19:21:31  <Terkhen> Katje_: stations have vehicle icons in the lower left corner, select the train icon to see a list of all trains that go to that station
19:21:35  <Alberth> Katje_: yes, open the station window, there is a train image at the bottom right
19:21:51  <Alberth> click on it :p
19:22:19  <Katje_> aha!!
19:22:21  <Katje_> thank you
19:22:41  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I am not sure of best implementation
19:22:43  <Terkhen> you are welcome
19:22:50  <Alberth> andythenorth: the idea is to have a few simple options, rather than an exhaustive list, isn't it?
19:22:58  <andythenorth> yes - not such a big project it never gets
19:22:59  <andythenorth> done
19:23:55  <Terkhen> I like the idea of "presets"
19:23:57  <Alberth> you can always expand later with more options
19:24:30  <Alberth> just a drop-down perhaps?
19:24:34  <andythenorth> yes
19:24:43  <andythenorth> removing as many other options as possible
19:24:57  <andythenorth> removing / hiding /s
19:25:33  <Alberth> hmm, I'd leave them, and set them to the value needed for generating the selected landscape type
19:25:49  <Terkhen> presets could take care of map generator, terrain type, sea level, three algorithm?, variety distribution, map edges? and smoothness
19:25:53  <Alberth> much less "where is option Q gone to?"
19:26:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: unfortunately it's not just a case of combining existing options :P
19:26:18  <Terkhen> I would move them to a different window, the generation window would become less intimidating for newbies
19:27:16  <Alberth> or a 'simple/expert' toggle in the advanced settings
19:27:35  <andythenorth> or a tab
19:27:36  <andythenorth> depending on planetmaker
19:27:53  <andythenorth> and revised GUI :P
19:28:03  <Alberth> andythenorth: hmm, extend the existing options first?
19:28:36  <Terkhen> it might make sense to extend the existing options first, if you want to use them to define presets later
19:28:37  <andythenorth> maybe - to what purpose though? :o
19:28:55  <Terkhen> but in that case, I would define them as settings without GUI first, to not make the same work twice
19:29:04  <Alberth> so I can do everything the simple options allow
19:29:05  <andythenorth> if we can identify common variables it would make sense
19:29:22  <andythenorth> I'm thinking that the code might be custom for each preset
19:29:38  <andythenorth> but someone more mathematical might be able to reduce it to functions and vars
19:29:59  <Terkhen> andythenorth: things like "heights for desert and jungle in tropic" or adding custom sine transforms
19:30:19  <andythenorth> ok
19:30:21  <Alberth> or x% water
19:31:17  <Terkhen> x% water is already present
19:31:54  <andythenorth> I probably need to understand the sine function
19:32:02  <andythenorth> and other things that cause map to be generated
19:32:35  <andythenorth> tgp.cpp is well documented :)
19:32:40  <andythenorth> someone gets cookies
19:33:44  <Alberth> tgp is a well-known algortihm afaik and eg also at wikipedia
19:34:49  <andythenorth> I assume there's no reason to increase scope to replacing tgp?
19:35:04  <andythenorth> from my tests I reckon not
19:35:56  <Terkhen> it should only be replaced by a complete solution to the problem IMO (for example, scripts)
19:37:44  <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you think scripts a better route than presets?
19:37:52  <Terkhen> I don't know
19:37:59  <Terkhen> the preset route sounds good enough to me
19:38:06  * Alberth agrees
19:38:07  <Terkhen> for other things, use a heightmap generator
19:38:26  <Terkhen> geogen is quite nice, but too big for being included in a game
19:39:18  <andythenorth> one problem that looks interesting is these flat-topped mountains
19:39:24  <andythenorth> code comments indicate their cause
19:40:55  <Alberth> arctic likes them for forests
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19:44:47  <andythenorth> can forests level their own mountain :D
19:44:49  <andythenorth> ?
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19:51:06  * andythenorth reads about perlin noise
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19:59:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21363 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Add: support for limiting the amount of (accepted) incoming data
20:04:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21364 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Change: increase the default amount of companies, clients and spectators. Furthermore tighten the command execution/queueing limits a bit
20:05:33  <andythenorth> who wrote tgp.cpp?
20:05:45  <andythenorth> (I can't find a way to see commit history for it)
20:06:39  <Rubidium> mrminiin
20:07:44  <Alberth> hg log src/tgp.cpp
20:07:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21365 /trunk/docs/multiplayer.txt: -Document: the reasoning for some of the network configuration defaults
20:08:53  <Belugas> WOW. I forgt his name
20:09:07  <Belugas> ho yeah Richk67
20:09:18  <Belugas> nicest guy i ever met
20:09:53  <Alberth> that nick always makes me think 'rich kid' :p
20:10:13  <andythenorth> he had some disagreement about airports?
20:10:15  <andythenorth> anyways
20:10:27  <andythenorth> perlin noise
20:10:50  <andythenorth> looks fun :p
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20:11:32  <Alberth> if at first you don't succeed, try again :)
20:12:15  <Terkhen> :)
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20:35:12  * andythenorth plays a tropic game
20:35:17  <andythenorth> with an exciting map :D
20:35:49  <V453000> volcanic fjords looking like moon with beer instead of water?
20:36:28  <andythenorth> not exactly
20:36:33  <andythenorth> but something like that
20:36:43  <Belugas> [15:12] <andythenorth> he had some disagreement about airports? <- among others :)
20:36:55  <andythenorth> ho hum
20:40:17  <b_jonas> one-way roads make it even easier to trap opponents' road vehicles
20:42:53  <b_jonas> oh argh!
20:43:07  <b_jonas> these are armoured vans, not buses
20:44:25  * andythenorth needs to create some industrial trams for < 1902
20:44:37  <b_jonas> I've replaced the trucks with buses
20:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: copy horses from eGRVTS?
20:45:09  <andythenorth> maybe
20:45:18  <andythenorth> I don't want to do it because tram tracks have catenary
20:45:21  <andythenorth> stupid reason
20:45:44  <Eddi|zuHause> electric trams started some 1890-ish
20:46:01  <andythenorth> but nonetheless
20:46:10  <Eddi|zuHause> surely most industrial railways are actually steam/diesel powered
20:46:26  <andythenorth> exactly
20:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> catenary would only get in the way most of the time
20:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and difficult to maintain
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20:49:36  <b_jonas> no wait, two of them were buses
20:49:42  <b_jonas> now I confused everything completely
20:51:23  <andythenorth> but current tram tracks have catenary
20:51:38  <andythenorth> hmm
20:51:38  * andythenorth visits newgrf specs
20:53:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: before elrail, people weren't stopped from introducing electric engines either...
20:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and since road vehicles can now emit diesel/steam smoke... ;)
20:54:12  <andythenorth> I was wondering if HEQS could turn off catenary before a certain date
20:54:19  <andythenorth> anyways, invisible menu can do it
20:54:31  <andythenorth> sort of
20:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no, HEQS certainly can't do that.
20:58:02  <lugo> that's sad, i was just googling some old trams to propose to andythenorth :D
20:58:19  <lugo> something in the direction of
21:00:37  <SpComb> something still up with
21:01:14  <SpComb> make that
21:01:18  <SpComb> seems to be a different server
21:01:41  <SpComb>
21:03:08  <lugo> but than again, i guess noone ever moved cargo with that 'locos' ;) ..
21:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: paste has been offline for months...
21:10:18  <lugo> < 'tram' with life boats
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21:13:09  <Eddi|zuHause> lugo: what the game needs is _mainstream_ transportation models
21:13:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the thing i hate most about bridge sets. they all consist of some extremely fancy designer bridges. but they look really crap if there are more than one of those...
21:14:35  <lugo> Eddi|zuHause, i don't want to see it in game, but just saw it lol'ed and wanted to share ;)
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21:16:20  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: controversial :P
21:16:28  <andythenorth> what the game needs is esoteric transportation models :
21:16:29  <andythenorth> :P
21:17:33  * andythenorth has hacked tropic to require food for all towns, but the town gui isn't showing it
21:17:33  <andythenorth> or rather it is, but the window isn't resizing
21:17:34  <andythenorth> text is being drawn on the landscape :P
21:17:56  <andythenorth> are the window sizes cached in the save game?
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21:22:24  <Hirundo> andythenorth: window (or rather, widget) sizes are computed based on their contents
21:22:36  <Hirundo> you may want to look at your window's UpdateWidgetSize method
21:26:16  <andythenorth> Hirundo: thanks.  fixed
21:32:14  <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out how to patch so rail stations can build orthogonal to coasts
21:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably shouldn't do that.
21:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01 once had a patch for stations on slopes, but you can't have a rail ending at the raised end of a foundation
21:34:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why?
21:34:16  <andythenorth> :D
21:34:19  <andythenorth> I've patched for it.
21:34:27  <andythenorth> do I just wait for the assert and read the logs?
21:34:35  <andythenorth> or does it confuse the pathfinder?
21:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinder/vehicle movement can't prevent vehicles jumping down the slope on the rail that continues on the ground
21:34:49  <andythenorth> that I'm going to have to try :o
21:35:35  <andythenorth> he he
21:36:49  <Wolf01> I had the same problem, I would only allow buffer stops/non track tile on slopes
21:37:36  <Wolf01> but with sloped station it looked really cool, the lack of graphics and some bugs stopped me
21:37:53  <andythenorth> I actually only want them on coasts anyway
21:37:59  <andythenorth> maybe I can patch for that
21:38:13  <andythenorth> meanwhile, I have a shay climbing vertical slopes
21:38:31  <Wolf01>
21:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the problem with non-track tiles is that if you remove the grf, it falls back to a track-tile
21:39:26  <Wolf01> yes, I know
21:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so the same restrictions must apply
21:39:42  <Wolf01> *that* was one of the main problems
21:39:52  <andythenorth> hmm
21:39:57  <andythenorth> coasts isn't safe either
21:40:09  <andythenorth> coast can be removed and track can be built at sea level
21:40:18  <andythenorth> using the canal method / hack
21:41:27  <Wolf01> a solution would be to have the buffers stops built with perpendicular direction track, so it is like a T, trains can't go on buffers since they are non-track tile
21:41:43  <Wolf01> so the direction doesn't matter
21:42:24  <Wolf01> but you can build a track facing in the other direction about the slope
21:42:35  <andythenorth> grr
21:44:05  <andythenorth> a class of station tile which isn't rail?
21:44:06  <Wolf01> oh, here's the last patch:
21:44:29  <andythenorth> i.e. set a bit so that if station tile is removed, rail isn't built
21:44:49  <andythenorth> in fact, something like that was done already
21:44:50  <Wolf01> you need to have a track as base for a station
21:45:12  <Wolf01> you might not see the track, but if it's a station it's a track
21:45:14  <andythenorth> no
21:45:17  <andythenorth> well yes
21:45:25  <andythenorth> but try removing a non-track tile in a recent build
21:45:34  <andythenorth> no rail is left behind
21:45:45  <SpComb> some poor soul tried to send me email about my daylength patch
21:45:56  <SpComb> one of these days I'll update it again
21:46:01  <Wolf01> lol?
21:46:07  <andythenorth> hmm
21:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: in case of slopes, buffer stops would probably better as objects instead of stations
21:46:37  <andythenorth> possibly, but they'd need to act as stations wrt to cargo etc
21:46:37  <andythenorth> otherwise yes
21:46:42  <andythenorth> apart from the huge amount of work already present in station sets :P
21:47:06  <andythenorth> bah
21:47:19  <andythenorth> removing the grf does indeed revert a non-track tile to a track tile
21:47:32  <andythenorth> but removing a grf should be considered stupid anyway
21:47:50  <Wolf01> there is a problem too with non-track types (buffers) when removing grfs, some station sets use a "double headed buffer" to separate 2 tracks and make the graphic look continuous, when you remove the grfs you might crash trains that way
21:48:12  <andythenorth> indeed
21:48:16  <Wolf01> at least if not already perpendicular
21:48:27  <Wolf01> like ---|---
21:48:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i don't see the problem ;)
21:48:54  <Wolf01> but if it's ---][--- and you remove the grf you'll get -------
21:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes, it might crash the trains, but it doesn't lead to an otherwise invalid game configuration
21:49:56  <andythenorth> Wolf01: it does crash the trains
21:49:57  <andythenorth> :D
21:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you can get trains into the same situation by ignoring signals
21:50:13  <Wolf01> indeed
21:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so the game state is valid, only unfortunate.
21:51:13  <andythenorth> grr
21:52:05  * andythenorth can't think of a way round this one :)
21:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> "i just blew up the game"?
21:53:05  <Wolf01> then implement sloped stations and all the sloped tiles will follow the slope, when the grf is active you have a non-track type tile, you get a slope otherwise
21:53:50  <Wolf01> call it a workaround
21:54:33  <andythenorth> slope right down into the sea :P
21:54:38  <frosch123> night
21:54:40  <Wolf01> yeah
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21:54:45  <andythenorth> hmm
21:55:09  <Wolf01> station or not, the train will stop when it reaches EOL
21:55:12  <andythenorth> only allow non-track station tiles on coast tiles, remove station tile if not coast?
21:55:52  <Wolf01> why? the train will stop at the very end of the station
21:56:51  <Wolf01> and with my implementation, the wagons follow the slope, then you only have a weird graphic, easily fixable with a grf
21:57:47  <andythenorth> there's a bit for 'non-track tile'?  Could that be set for default station tiles if newgrf is removed?
21:58:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that would be a proper solution, yes.
21:58:28  <Eddi|zuHause> but map space is scarce
21:58:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and you have to provide graphics for a default non-track station
21:59:14  <Wolf01> just draw a red dot over the tile
22:00:31  <Wolf01> or change palette to ... crahsed for that tile if the bit is set
22:01:15  <Wolf01> or draw the station overlay without the track :D
22:01:16  <George> Should farm fields appear from under the snow when snow line goes up? In TTDP snow removes farm field
22:01:19  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: just break the graphics somehow
22:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause> hijacking the closed road image :p
22:01:22  <andythenorth> they're broken anyway
22:02:14  <Eddi|zuHause> George: i think there was a fairly recent change which allowed things like rocks to exist under the snow
22:02:16  <Wolf01> George, it would be cool
22:02:57  <George> Eddi|zuHause: Is it controlled somehow?
22:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> George: i don't think newgrf can do anything about it
22:03:28  <George> Game setting?
22:03:58  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
22:05:11  * andythenorth thinks of another solution to stations
22:05:17  <andythenorth> two in fact
22:05:38  <andythenorth> one is a tile that includes very small buffer stops if it's the end tile of a track
22:06:03  <andythenorth> the other is a buffer tile, but with the orientation of graphics to tile direction rotated 90'
22:06:42  <andythenorth> I prefer the 'correct' solution with the non-track bit though
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22:16:06  <andythenorth> Wolf01: sloped stations are cool
22:16:23  <andythenorth> it would be a lot of work for all the train station sets though
22:16:31  <andythenorth> maybe revisit it for roads?
22:16:40  <Wolf01> it have roads too
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22:17:21  <Wolf01>
22:17:47  <andythenorth> did it have any major problems?
22:18:42  <Wolf01> yes, I needed to change the function which builds the road stations (not drive through) to disallow building them facing the slope :P
22:19:21  <Wolf01> otherwise invalid combinations were alloved for roads too
22:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> buffer stops would be more interesting if you could have half-tile rails
22:20:34  <Wolf01> if you look at the left of the image you can see the road stations built with this patch, that's an interesting configuration
22:20:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why, and what blocks it?
22:20:43  <Wolf01> *right, ehm
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22:22:20  <Xaroth> I must be stupid
22:22:25  <Xaroth> trying to make a patch for ottd..
22:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: clearly, that IS stupid.
22:22:54  <Xaroth> yeh :P
22:23:04  <Xaroth> it is if you know my C++ skillz :P
22:23:07  <Xaroth> if not, ask TrueBrain
22:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i can't think of any code that is prepared to stop trains going beyond the middle of a tile
22:23:38  <andythenorth> and what's useful about that idea? :)
22:24:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could use the half tile before the buffer stop as platform
22:24:43  <andythenorth> squeezing extra length out of the station?
22:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:24:54  <andythenorth> I use buffer stops mostly, but I think they waste a lot of space
22:25:09  <Xaroth> not to mention I have no clue at all how to accomplish this
22:28:02  <andythenorth> bridges aren't going to be possible over stations yes / no?
22:29:21  <Wolf01> we miss the bridge height
22:29:26  <Wolf01> and the station height
22:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not currently, but maybe in the future
22:30:00  <andythenorth> probably longer than I'm prepared to wait while playing my current game?
22:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there is really nothing beyond visual glitches preventing it
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22:31:03  <andythenorth> I guess for now I'll be demolishing my bridge :P
22:31:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't checked the map array recently, but i guess you can allow it in under 10 lines...
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22:35:12  <b_jonas> do the grfs have an info about which custom stations have what height? I mean, some of these high cranes and overpasses and grain storage tanks wouldn't fit under a bridge.
22:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: no, that's the problem.
22:36:47  <andythenorth> make sense
22:42:58  <andythenorth> good night
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22:43:32  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't checked the map array recently, but i guess you can allow it in under 10 lines... <- just 1 if if IIRC
22:43:55  <Wolf01> -if
22:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: one of the I in IIRC is already an "if"
22:44:23  <Wolf01> that's the point :P
22:44:23  <Rubidium> triple word value?
22:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really remember, but last time i tried in 1 line, i failed... must have been the wrong line ;)
22:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but that was a _very_ long time ago
22:50:52  <Wolf01> I usually comment the ifs which returns in case of impossible combinations, sandbox mode enabled XD
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23:03:51  <Terkhen> good night
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23:49:09  <Wolf01> 'nini
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