Log for #openttd on 8th December 2010:
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00:27:18  <supermop> hello
00:27:27  <SmatZ> hello mop
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00:28:35  <supermop> what is going on in the openttd chanel today?
00:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing, since the beginning of the day.
00:29:12  <SpComb> yawn
00:29:48  <supermop> hmm
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00:30:40  <supermop> so standardizing railtype labels might be interesting!
00:30:59  <supermop> i am liking the idea of modular railtype grfs
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00:55:16  <supermop> i really like playing games on small maps
00:56:55  <supermop> its very clock-like
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01:03:36  <planetmaker> I just implemented that for SER ;-)
01:03:44  <supermop> ha
01:03:58  <supermop> are you responding to my forum post on irc?
01:07:08  <supermop> oh btw
01:07:10  <planetmaker> I wrote something in the slow rail thread
01:07:17  <supermop> me too
01:08:09  <supermop> it was recently requested in ogfx thread to include a few basic station types, maybe ogfx+ stations
01:08:30  <planetmaker> yes. But that's something definitely for another year
01:08:37  <supermop> i think I would be down with drawing those
01:09:02  <supermop> not sure if my style is close enough to ogfx style
01:09:08  <supermop> but I could try
01:10:31  <planetmaker> while I like the idea I'm currently not very keen on starting OpenGFX+ Stations
01:10:40  <supermop> ok
01:10:50  <supermop> fair enough
01:10:54  <planetmaker> It'd be one project too much for the time being ;-)
01:11:17  <planetmaker> Well, it need not stop you drawing stations.
01:11:32  <planetmaker> There are more people out there who can code...
01:11:46  <planetmaker> Also pixels are usually quite patient
01:12:06  <Yexo> if it's not too many stations I'll code them. NML still needs an example station project
01:12:22  <planetmaker> do we support that so far?
01:12:26  <Yexo> not sure
01:12:33  <planetmaker> Not that I know :-)
01:12:48  <Yexo> having some sprites is a good motivation to implement support
01:12:59  <planetmaker> quite true
01:13:31  <supermop> i was under them impression nml could not do stations yet..
01:13:35  <supermop> The
01:13:38  <supermop> not them
01:14:04  <Yexo> true, but support can be implemented at any time ;)
01:14:15  <Yexo> and having some sprites can make the priority to implement support for stations higher
01:14:21  <supermop> ok
01:14:52  <supermop> along those line, I am also always accepting of coding help for MLSS
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01:15:16  <planetmaker> he :-)
01:15:26  <planetmaker> Too time - consuming in NFO ;-)
01:16:19  <supermop> just trying to learn how to do what I want to do in NFO burns up 90% of the time I spend on that set
01:17:32  <PulseNeon> NML?
01:17:33  <planetmaker> hm... will a railytpe become available, if I don't define a label?
01:17:43  <Yexo> what is MLSS?
01:17:51  * planetmaker tests
01:17:51  <supermop> my shed grf
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01:19:38  <supermop> i am have a really hard time putting fences on the tiles
01:19:45  <planetmaker> how so?
01:19:59  <supermop> well
01:20:02  <planetmaker> hm... it's not rails, though...
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01:25:19  <supermop> well
01:25:32  <supermop> its a whole bag of trouble
01:25:54  <supermop> but i'd be happy to explain to the curious
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01:26:18  <supermop> it is not really related to either ogfx+ or rail types
01:26:40  <planetmaker> hm, I fear I'm far too tired to have an attention span longer than 5 seconds
01:27:21  <supermop> yeah
01:27:30  <PulseNeon> I'm curious, but it'd  be wasted on me, sorry.
01:28:39  <planetmaker> PulseNeon: NML is a programming language for NewGRFs
01:29:51  <planetmaker> But I guess I should wave 'good night' at the round
01:29:59  <planetmaker> Catch you another day :-)
01:30:19  <supermop> later
01:52:47  * XeryusTC eats planetmaker
01:58:51  <PulseNeon> How does he taste?
02:29:50  <XeryusTC> dusty
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05:07:48  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21434 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/masterserver/handler.cpp: [MSU] -Fix (r21357): number of servers to put in a packet was determined incorrectly
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08:19:56  <andythenorth> morningz
08:22:57  <avdg> morning
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08:48:11  <realbigdreamer> Hello everyone
08:49:38  <Rubidium> hallo :)
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08:52:34  <realbigdreamer> I wanted to start an Open TTD server last night. We had 3 PCs in a LAN and the idea was for some friends to join over the internet. The players on the lan could connect to my server, but those on the internet could not find it. I understand that I have to forward a port or something. I've never done this. I am running Windows 7 x64 with a direct internet connection and the 3 PCs are connected via a switch.
08:54:31  <Rubidium> "direct internet" means the switch is connected to a DSL/cable modem?
08:57:06  <Rubidium> might be of use, especially the link to the website with guides on port forwarding for different routers/modems
08:58:37  <Rubidium> besides that I don't have much of a clue when it comes to Windows (Vista/7) configuration stuff
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09:14:54  <realbigdreamer> Thanks for the info. Got disconnected. Well, my PC which runsthe server is connected to the internet via wireless broadband connection. Then the switch connects the three PCs with 3 LAN cables.
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09:16:52  <norbert79> Morning
09:19:10  <realbigdreamer> Hi Norbert
09:20:55  <norbert79> Morning realbigdreamer
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09:52:16  <realbigdreamer> On my way out. Cheers
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10:44:51  * andythenorth punders
10:44:56  <andythenorth> it's like pondering
10:44:59  <andythenorth> only less so
10:45:11  <peter1138> is it like plundering
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10:46:01  <andythenorth> it may escalate to plundering
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10:49:34  <andythenorth> peter1138: did I see rivers in your height maps last week?
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10:51:56  <peter1138> vagueloy
10:51:57  <peter1138> -o
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10:52:08  <peter1138> pretty crappy ones
10:52:48  <andythenorth> still :o
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10:54:15  <peter1138> i think flowing rivers would be the way to go
10:54:28  <peter1138> then you just plonk a few down and let iteration happen
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10:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> problem with "flowing" rivers is that the landscape is too flat...
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11:00:17  <andythenorth> work back from the shore...
11:00:22  <andythenorth> reverse flow...
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11:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't change anything about the fundamental problem
11:16:12  <peter1138> wel
11:16:16  <peter1138> i guess
11:16:33  <peter1138> doing it during landscape generation means you get access to height data before it's smooth out
11:16:59  <peter1138> other thing is that rivers generally carve out a bit
11:17:36  <peter1138> need that geology simulation :D
11:17:40  <andythenorth> I was thinking during map gen...
11:18:04  <andythenorth> pick a point at height level 0, keep going until you hit height level 1, drop that tile...keep going
11:18:16  <andythenorth> (with some random direction changes)
11:18:42  <peter1138> well there is no height level 0 at this point, heh
11:18:42  <andythenorth> stay on height level n until n+1 is found
11:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the fundamental difference between map generation and real rivers is: the real rivers were there first, and the landscape slowly formed with the rivers in mind
11:19:27  <andythenorth> are the heights actually in something I would recognise as an array?
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11:19:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
11:19:48  <andythenorth> 2 dimensional?
11:19:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i have my old river patch lying around somewhere
11:20:12  * andythenorth wonders about just running over the array, with some random to move row / col
11:20:31  <andythenorth> probably quite easy to deadlock the game with this kind of code :O
11:20:34  <peter1138> hmm, actually during normalization there's a point where everything is between 0-15 but stretched * 16
11:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're lucky
11:20:49  <andythenorth> we were lucky
11:21:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: did you start at shoreline, or 'spring'
11:21:27  <Eddi|zuHause> last time it crashed when you have a river grf loaded
11:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> due to lack of sprites for rivers-on-halftile-slopes
11:22:07  <peter1138> heh, yeah
11:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: at the "spring"
11:22:19  <peter1138> i just made mine leave gaps at those places
11:22:28  <andythenorth> what if you don't end up at water?
11:22:31  <andythenorth> i.e. sea
11:22:42  <andythenorth> rivers won't fill depressions to create lakes, right?
11:22:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it ends at any place it considers a "hole"
11:22:53  <peter1138> maybe they should :D
11:23:07  <andythenorth> griefing opportunity :P
11:23:18  <peter1138> griefing during map gen?
11:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't gotten as far as "flooding" or "carving"
11:23:28  <andythenorth> unless we 'just' allow sea at > level 0
11:23:47  <peter1138> mine makes wider rivers if two rivers join
11:23:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a random chance of either of these happening
11:25:02  <peter1138> carving is tricky before the map is "fixed"
11:25:25  <peter1138> i.e. before FixSlopes()
11:25:32  <peter1138> which happens after tgp
11:25:34  <andythenorth> can't it come later in the pipeline?
11:25:39  <andythenorth> when we have the heights
11:25:53  * andythenorth isn't 100% sure of the pipeline :P
11:25:54  <peter1138> after fixslopes you don't have the high resolution height data any more
11:26:03  <peter1138> so flat areas are just flat
11:26:05  <andythenorth> uch
11:26:17  <andythenorth> does that matter?
11:26:28  <peter1138> well, maybe
11:26:36  <peter1138> means you need to rely on random numbers more
11:27:00  <peter1138> i still want to experiment with that polygon map generator
11:28:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so... halftile rivers... what happened to that idea?
11:28:46  <peter1138> don't remember :)
11:29:01  <peter1138> i did a patch for it, didn't i?
11:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe so, but i don't have it
11:30:22  <andythenorth> no river:
11:30:32  <andythenorth> river:
11:30:42  <andythenorth> is that the desired effect?
11:30:48  <andythenorth> It's what I think it should look like
11:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, between "thinking" and "programming that thought" is a huge difference
11:32:07  <andythenorth> I know
11:32:08  <andythenorth> :P
11:32:12  <Mortomes|Work> What? They still haven't invented a programming language that will do what you think?
11:32:33  <andythenorth> but rivers should be in at least a 1 height trench?
11:32:43  <andythenorth> for ease of bridging as much as anything
11:32:45  <peter1138> shuld they?
11:32:49  <peter1138> +o
11:32:58  <andythenorth> that's what I'm asking :P
11:33:01  <andythenorth> hmm
11:33:03  <andythenorth> baby noises
11:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think they should
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11:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> they occasionally might, but not in general
11:33:31  <andythenorth> how about epic gorges :P
11:34:44  <andythenorth>
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11:35:12  <V453000> these arent ugly imo :)
11:35:31  <V453000> if they would only blend with the landscape a bit more :)
11:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: landscaping during river generation is really tricky
11:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> because of the restrictions for rivers on slopes
11:37:05  <andythenorth> they're valid restrictions?
11:37:10  <andythenorth> or just no-one wants to fix them?
11:37:17  <Ammler> a good start would be to enable rivers in play mode
11:37:30  <andythenorth> I can't imagine a river on a half-tile slope
11:38:13  <andythenorth> it means a river is going to end up flowing on a side slope
11:38:23  <andythenorth> orthogonal to direction of slope
11:38:26  <andythenorth> hmm
11:38:39  <andythenorth> it could be cheated graphically so there are cliffs on the high side
11:38:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. they flow downwards, no matter what the landscape looks like
11:38:46  <andythenorth> but that's not going to work
11:39:27  <andythenorth> apart from graphical cheats, rivers on half-slopes just
11:39:53  <andythenorth> I suppose some kind of funky rapids could be drawn
11:40:02  <andythenorth> at 45' to river banks
11:41:05  <Ammler> if you could make rivers, people would recognize those and maybe someone would make "nicer" river graphics and patches
11:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know about graphical visualisation, but it would ease river generation by orders of magnitude
11:42:15  <Eddi|zuHause> currently, you can't make a river both zig-zag and flowing down. it ends up completely flat.
11:44:24  <andythenorth> flat as in straight, or flat as in all same height level?
11:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> all same height level
11:45:14  <SystemParadox> zig-zagging how?
11:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> SystemParadox: imagine it like putting diagonal rails into the landscape
11:45:57  <SystemParadox> oh
11:46:19  <SystemParadox> it currently works the same as roads, no?
11:46:28  <Markavian`> you could reserve 2x2 areas for water falls and do a nice graphic
11:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> SystemParadox: no, something inbetween. ship movement is like rail movement.
11:47:13  <SystemParadox> heh, that's odd
11:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> only the "rail bits" are automatically calculated by the adjacent river tiles
11:47:18  <SystemParadox> I meant the rivers themselve
11:47:38  <SystemParadox> ohhhh
11:48:23  <SystemParadox> wait, you can't make diagonal rail go downhill either
11:48:43  <Markavian`> nope, it'd be invisible at certain angles
11:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is the point. you as human can easily terraform or build curves, but the river generator cannot do that
11:49:14  <Markavian`> beizer curves?
11:49:16  <Markavian`> point based
11:49:28  <SystemParadox> lol, I don't think so
11:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Markavian`: completely different topic
11:49:43  <Markavian`> *nod*
11:50:09  <SystemParadox> what about Markavian's idea of 2x2 waterfalls? would that work?
11:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
11:50:34  <Markavian`> other suggestion: sharp waterfalls, 1x1 that have a vertical edge instead of sloped
11:50:56  <Markavian`> and you could have corner waterfalls then
11:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Markavian`: you can do that by providing a river grf. that is also outside of the current topic
11:51:25  <Markavian`> 'k
11:51:33  <Markavian`> what's the current topic?
11:51:38  <SystemParadox> how does the river generator work? Does it try to route a river between 2 points, or just start at a high point and work down?
11:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "the" river generator. various people have experimental ones. my one starts at a point and works downwards
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11:53:52  <dih> the definition of 'downwards' will be interesting on a flat map ^^
11:54:24  <SystemParadox> I think in this case 'downwards' probably means 'randomly but not up'
11:55:09  <dih> if there was an 'up' there would also be a 'down'!
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11:55:25  <SystemParadox> lol
11:55:27  <dih> 'downwards' already implies 'not up'
11:56:07  <SystemParadox> I doubt the river actively tries to seek out the lower land. It's probably done on a tile at a time basis
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11:58:16  <SystemParadox> is it permitted to have different levels of sea?
11:58:41  <SystemParadox> I was thinking you could just make the last tile sea (like a lake) if you get stuck
11:59:37  <SystemParadox> but that doesn't work either
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11:59:46  <SystemParadox> because you need a flat tile for that :(
12:00:08  <SystemParadox> this is a really hard problem
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12:06:17  <Eddi|zuHause> dih: the map is not that flat during map generation
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12:08:35  <Rubidium> ohoh
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12:13:33  <roboboy> can someone tell me why we need a second chance to choose the climate for a new random game?
12:14:36  <Rubidium> because it makes conceptual sense to choose the climate in that window
12:14:44  <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: in the map generation window is the logical place for it, but they weren't removed from the main window for aesthetical reasons
12:15:08  <planetmaker> roboboy, you can also use ctrl+click "new game" and then you won't have to configure anything.
12:15:22  <planetmaker> All settings will be re-uses "as is" with the climate selection taken from the main menu
12:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it rains... that ought to give funny roads...
12:17:53  <roboboy> I can see that they do belong on the map gen window, but I pick my climate then think about everything else except for NewGRFs.
12:18:48  <roboboy> planetmaker, you mean reused instead of re-uses in that context?
12:20:26  <planetmaker> reused. Yes.
12:20:29  <planetmaker> Sorry
12:20:58  <roboboy> just offering my help
12:34:07  <planetmaker> shit happens when you change your mind about how to formulate a sentence half way ;-)
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12:34:36  <andythenorth> there's not going to be anything like 'pick a random coast tile' is there?
12:34:54  <andythenorth> it's going to be 'pick a random tile, check for water, check for land => it's coast'
12:34:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: difficult
12:35:44  <andythenorth> depending on % of tiles that are coast, it could never complete
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12:36:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: probably best approach would be: "pick a random water tile", "pick a random land tile", "do a bisection between them to find the shore"
12:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but there might not be any water on the map.
12:38:13  * andythenorth has another idea for rivers
12:38:26  <peter1138> hmm, my tgp mod now uses 5 heightmaps :S
12:38:44  <andythenorth> export heightmap as scenario, send to amazon mechanical turk, have human add rivers, get back
12:38:56  <andythenorth> just need a *looooong* progress bar while that happens
12:39:02  <andythenorth> and a micro-payment system in the game :P
12:41:18  <peter1138> heh
12:41:28  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what about: pick a random land tile (if that exists), pick a random edge tile (x = 0, y = 0, y = mapsizex, x = mapsizey), use NPF to do a BFS towards that direction which terminates whenever is finds water and uses the general water flow characteristics to determine which way it can go
12:42:06  <Rubidium> after all, a river going off the map isn't such a bad thing when there is no water on the map, is it?
12:42:57  <andythenorth> no
12:42:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, only thing is rivers show shore next to "void" tiles... at least last time i checked
12:43:09  * andythenorth checks
12:43:19  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then "fix" that? :)
12:43:25  <andythenorth> yes they show shore
12:43:36  <peter1138> btw, tgp as it stands wastes some time setting values to 0 when amplitude is 0 -- the heightmap is already initialized to 0
12:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i don't think tgp is performance critical ;)
12:44:27  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, why does it use a non-standard algorithm for performance then?
12:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: because richk has a twisted mind?
12:45:24  * andythenorth has never seen a slow map gen
12:45:28  <andythenorth> maybe optimisation works :P
12:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> some ECS versions had _extremely_ slow industry generation ;)
12:46:25  <andythenorth> oh yeah, that's slow
12:46:32  <andythenorth> but not the generating landscape part :)
12:47:25  <peter1138> according to the notes the speed-up is 300% to 800%
12:47:26  <andythenorth> town, industry, trees and tile loop all take way longer than generating terrain
12:47:38  <andythenorth> 'every little helps'
12:47:40  <peter1138> which could be quite a bit on a 2048x2048 map
12:49:03  <peter1138> tgp's lowest frequency is 64 tiles
12:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, an 800% speedup may be viable even for non-critical tasks ;)
12:53:19  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I think it was caused by slow "CalcDistanceToWater()" function, it was sped up once and it helped a lot
12:53:29  <SmatZ> maybe there were further issues though
12:53:51  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i haven't tried it in almost two years i think
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13:44:26  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: yexo * r21435 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h strings.cpp): -Fix: NewGRF strings that referenced a value that was set by a string command later in the string failed
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14:08:57  <Belugas> hello
14:09:06  <planetmaker> moin Belugas
14:11:23  <Belugas> sir planetmaker :)
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14:27:32  * roboboy needs to go to bed soon but it is too hot
14:28:20  <Rubidium> roboboy: then move
14:34:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's too cold here...
14:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's raining and thawing...
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14:38:07  <roboboy> I might go to sleep on top of my bed
14:38:12  <roboboy> gnight
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14:38:22  <planetmaker> g'night roboboy
14:39:44  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: smatz * r21436 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: LTO was no longer detected for GCC 4.6
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16:12:26  <avdg> hmm, new wikileaks attack
16:12:59  <avdg> <- crazy amount of new tweets
16:13:57  <SmatZ> I thought the target will be paypal
16:14:01  <SmatZ> oh fine :)
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16:19:37  <andythenorth> booble dooble
16:23:11  <Terkhen> hello
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16:34:05  <fjb> Moin
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16:44:39  * Xaroth pokes dih
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17:23:11  * dih pokes Xaroth
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17:36:42  * SmatZ peeks dih
17:37:21  <dih> :-P
17:37:30  * dih burps
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17:42:55  <Rubidium> Mister Anderson...
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17:44:16  * Belugas is bored... tons of stuff to do, but all so boooooooooooooooring :(
17:44:18  <PulseNeon> Yes?
17:45:21  <PulseNeon> ident is supposed to be pulseneon, but I geuss neon didn't fit ;)
17:47:29  <SmatZ> :D
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17:52:21  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21437 /trunk/src/table/newgrf_debug_data.h: -Fix: Object newgrf debug data table was outdated
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18:21:42  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21438 /trunk/src/order_backup.cpp: -Fix (r21424): fix triggered an assertion when the build did support networking
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18:45:49  <avdg> seems like I to fix stuff of people trying something good (but not good enough)
18:45:53  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21439 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:53  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:53  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: belarusian - 6 changes by KorneySan
18:45:53  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: dutch - 6 changes by habell
18:45:53  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: finnish - 6 changes by jpx_
18:45:55  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by glx
18:45:55  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: hungarian - 7 changes by IPG
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18:56:05  <frosch123> let me guess, i closed this window :p
18:56:20  <Rubidium> no, some remote host closed the connection
18:57:27  <Xaroth> Rubidium: in network_admin.cpp it sends company->money and income as uint64 .. but aren't those just signed int64s?
18:58:44  <Rubidium> yes, but it doesn't matter for the transmission
18:58:56  <Rubidium> the bytes remain the same
18:59:00  <Xaroth> you had me confused tho :P
18:59:15  <Xaroth> well, my lib got confused
18:59:16  <Xaroth> 'money': 18446744073709548024L
18:59:29  <Rubidium> you might also notice that there are *no* signed transmissions in the network protocol
18:59:43  <Xaroth> I haven't read -that- much of the ottd source :P
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19:05:56  <Belugas> at least, yu're not coming waving "i found a bug" type of flag ;)  you asked first
19:05:57  <Belugas> good boy
19:06:00  <Belugas> man
19:06:03  <Belugas> girl
19:06:05  <Belugas> woman
19:06:10  <Xaroth> heh
19:06:10  <Belugas> pick appropriate
19:06:25  <Xaroth> Suffice to say TrueBrain trained me well :P
19:06:47  <Rubidium> Xaroth: 2 words, 9 letters
19:06:53  <TrueBrain> duurt lang?
19:07:01  <Xaroth> lol
19:07:37  <Xaroth> Rubidium: no clue ... i was tempted to say 'piss off'.. but that's only 8
19:07:39  <Rubidium> oh... now you spoiled this impromptu test
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19:14:35  <Xaroth> right, think that covers just about every bit of data it collects
19:14:47  <Xaroth> now to make something viewable...
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19:24:49  <Zuu_> Xaroth: Working on your updater?
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19:25:41  <Xaroth> Zuu_: nope
19:25:50  <Xaroth>
19:25:57  * andythenorth goes bug looking
19:27:18  <Zuu_> So its a library for this new admin bot interface.
19:27:23  <Xaroth> yar
19:28:18  <Xaroth> working on a small django app to show -some- of its potential
19:29:34  <Zuu_> Sounds interesting.
19:30:06  * andythenorth can't find the bug by inspection :(
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19:35:07  <andythenorth> shame I can't convert my unwanted road bridge to rail
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19:38:57  <PulseNeon> Where you are going, you don't need roads
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19:51:46  * andythenorth considers adding rivers to current game
19:51:55  <andythenorth> via scenario editor
19:53:10  <frosch123> or add a hidden "premium_user" setting to allow building them in game :p
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19:55:30  <Terkhen> DLC!
19:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> we already have's called bananas :p
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19:56:41  <Terkhen> hmm... you are right, but I meant paid DLC :P
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20:01:31  * andythenorth needs a sound effect for trams
20:02:48  <Zuu_> The metalic sound when the tram wheels do not perfectly fit the rail?
20:03:35  <andythenorth> it's not in the default sound set :P
20:04:01  *** Zuu___ [~chatzilla@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:04:46  *** Zuu__ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:04:51  <Xaroth> Zuu_: well the original idea was to have a full 'browser' of the game.. with a map display a-la google maps.. but that requires some adjusting of the source :P
20:05:22  <andythenorth> can I use the electric engine sound effect for trams?
20:05:34  <andythenorth> can't find it documented in newgrf wiki anywhere
20:05:44  <andythenorth> maybe it's in src? :o
20:06:03  <andythenorth> yup
20:09:05  <andythenorth> hmm
20:09:08  <andythenorth> car horn for trams?
20:09:25  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:10:23  <Xaroth> Vuvuzela?
20:11:57  <andythenorth> not so much :)
20:12:29  <Eddi|zuHause> some early trams had a bell sound
20:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't remember which grf that was in...
20:12:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it started to get extremely annoying with more than a dozen trams in one city :p
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20:13:53  <andythenorth> I have chosen a pleasing horn :)
20:14:00  <andythenorth> at least, it sounds good in the default sound set
20:14:10  <andythenorth> (ttd original)
20:14:33  * Terkhen tests
20:20:10  <PulseNeon> Hello
20:21:02  <Terkhen> andythenorth: with OpenSFX it is not annoying at all, mainly because they don't make any sound
20:21:05  <Terkhen> hi PulseNeon
20:21:28  <andythenorth> he
20:21:35  <Terkhen> if I change to original_windows I can hear the horn fine
20:21:39  <PulseNeon> Just answering your test :)
20:22:00  <Terkhen> perhaps it is a bug in OpenSFX, but honestly I don't know why it does not sound
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20:27:45  <andythenorth> maybe I chose a sound which is unused / unavailable
20:28:00  <andythenorth> it's SND_22_CAR_HORN,
20:28:45  <andythenorth> although for some reason it's 20h for prop 12
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20:29:08  <andythenorth> there seems to be an 'off by 2' for sound effects between nfo and src
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20:48:33  * Terkhen is bored
20:48:43  <svip> Play OpenTTD.
20:49:07  <Terkhen> I'm not sure if that's a good idea
20:49:19  <Terkhen> I might find yet another thing to code
20:49:24  <fjb> It always is.
20:49:57  <glx> try minecraft ;)
20:53:02  <Terkhen> I tried the classic months ago, I didn't find it very appealing
20:53:59  <PulseNeon> Classic
20:54:11  <PulseNeon> Minecraft is boring to me alone. Actually, most games are to me nowadays XD
20:54:33  <glx> classic doesn't reflect the real game
20:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> minecraft lacks some "missions" in order to be appealing for single player
20:55:07  <PulseNeon> Well, that's true.
20:55:10  <Terkhen> I logged into a few servers and saw a lot of crazy stuff
20:55:21  <PulseNeon> but building is basically the only thing you can do.
20:55:25  <glx> multiplayer starts to be interresting
20:55:31  <glx> now you can die
20:55:37  <Terkhen> some guys had built the washington capitol in scale
20:55:37  <glx> and you often die :)
20:55:40  <PulseNeon> Creepers make moats kind of necessary, moats as in 2 block deep gaps to keep the creepers out.
20:56:04  <Terkhen> I guess they used some kind of automatic generator; I can't believe anyone would have enough patience to build something that big
20:57:00  <Xaroth> they have no life
20:57:02  <Xaroth> what do you expect :P
20:57:07  * Belugas likes to play bejeweled (or soemthing) on his console
20:59:19  * andythenorth would like to see a timeseries plot of ottd commits vs. minecraft updates :P
20:59:48  <andythenorth> I suspect correlation
21:01:16  <svip> Oh dear.
21:01:43  <SpComb> Belugas == Notch
21:02:00  <svip> This is the worst.  I am actually hooked on the idea of playing a game, but I cannot figure out which.
21:02:08  <Belugas> notch?
21:02:11  <svip> Someone told me a decent Settlers-like game.
21:02:12  <Belugas> scotch
21:02:17  <svip> Belugas: Developer of Minecraft.
21:02:29  <SpComb> Minecraft Alpha has a fair amount of singleplayer depth
21:02:32  <Belugas> ho no... far not
21:03:01  <SpComb> perhaps with a bit of seafaring
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21:03:36  <SpComb> svip: dosbox + settlers2.exe?
21:03:41  <SpComb> dosbox + simcity2k?
21:03:49  <SpComb> dosbox + OpenTTD?
21:03:51  <svip> I have both.
21:03:59  <svip> Uhm, why dosbox and openttd?
21:04:03  * Terkhen decides to play openttd
21:04:19  * andythenorth feels dirty with this talk of other games
21:04:34  <andythenorth> go wash your mouths out!
21:04:44  <glx> <svip> Uhm, why dosbox and openttd? <-- because DOS version works in dosbox :)
21:04:49  * Terkhen should not talk about how much time he spends playing sc2 then
21:05:15  <andythenorth> there are only two other games: railroad tycoon 3, and dope wars
21:05:42  <svip> Terkhen: Star Control 2?
21:05:46  <svip> I love that game.
21:06:03  <Xaroth> Evil Genius
21:07:41  <Terkhen> not exactly :P
21:08:21  <Terkhen> something more 2010ish
21:08:43  * andythenorth is puzzled
21:08:45  <andythenorth> "This system is dull and it doesnt even make sence.i mean..100 trucks or excavators are able to do a lot more work then 1 no?
21:08:46  <andythenorth> Realism..i dont wanna realism...realism is bad and it ruins the fun"
21:09:05  <andythenorth> seems my new friend contradicts himself a bit :P
21:10:22  <PulseNeon> 100 excavators?what is this, Pandora?
21:10:31  <Belugas> making sense is boring
21:10:35  <Belugas> who said that?
21:10:44  <Belugas> Talking Heads, i think
21:10:47  <andythenorth>
21:10:49  <Belugas> "Stop making Sense"
21:11:12  <Terkhen> actually, that post does not make any sense
21:11:21  * andythenorth ponders
21:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <SpComb> svip: dosbox + settlers2.exe? <-- wine + s2dng.exe?
21:11:54  <andythenorth> if I use production cb for primaries, instead of default primary behaviour, I could increase production a *lot*
21:12:02  <andythenorth> currently it tops out at 768t for an ore mine
21:12:19  <andythenorth> but if tens of thousands of tons is needed, I need to rewrite
21:12:26  <Terkhen> hmm... why do you need that insane amounts?
21:12:39  <andythenorth> I don't, players do
21:12:45  <Terkhen> meh
21:13:05  <Terkhen> they will never be satisfied
21:13:06  * andythenorth is not entirely serious
21:13:34  <Terkhen> you could raise that cap, and then they would complain that the new one is not reached quickly enough
21:13:58  <Terkhen> hmm... what kind of game should I play?
21:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried dosbox+orion2.exe recently
21:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> don't ever try defeating the antarans as uncreative :p
21:15:29  <Terkhen> hmm... I'd love to have a clone of that
21:15:41  <Terkhen> freeorion was too simple, right?
21:15:48  <andythenorth> how about all mines just start with 10k production?
21:15:50  <ccfreak2k> I'd put money into a Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.
21:15:53  <Eddi|zuHause> was that ever playable?
21:15:53  <ccfreak2k> Clone.
21:16:14  <Terkhen> ccfreak2k:
21:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: there's a great civ4 mod using alpha centauri as basis
21:16:47  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, I've seen that.
21:16:54  <Belugas> [16:13] <@Terkhen> they will never be satisfied  <-- words of a wise man
21:16:57  <ccfreak2k> It was a good start, but I didn't like it for some reason.
21:17:03  <Terkhen> oooh
21:17:06  <Terkhen> that's a good idea
21:17:17  <Terkhen> besides colonization, I never tried any mods of civ4
21:17:21  <ccfreak2k> Terkhen, wow, that's ancient.
21:17:45  <ccfreak2k> But it followed on the heels of the official game release.
21:17:49  <ccfreak2k> Relatively speaking.
21:17:59  <Eddi|zuHause> colonization was a bad mod...
21:18:07  <Terkhen> hmm... how sad, but freeciv is being updated frequently
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21:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it failed both to recreate the experience of the old game as well as bringing in good new gameplay stuff
21:18:33  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, was there a mod or are you talking about the stand-alone game?
21:18:35  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: yes, kind of boring (I never tried the original one so I can't compare)
21:18:56  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: i mean the thing they sold as standalone game, but which was essentially a mod
21:19:55  <Terkhen> only that annoying ring kissing is what made me want to finish the game so I could get revenge
21:20:20  <ccfreak2k> Terkhen, that
21:20:24  <ccfreak2k> s sort of the point.
21:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> they toned down that ring kissing at some point...
21:20:55  <ccfreak2k> Eventually you can't really sate his demands, so you tell him where he can shove his ring.
21:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> don't know if that was an official or inofficial patch
21:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> there wasn't really any point in giving the king money, and the tax rate eventually gave you benefits if you got the right founding fathers...
21:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> definitely beats having your best exporting good forever boycotted
21:26:05  <frosch123> hmm, ... santa sledge ... that's actually an articulated aircraft
21:26:12  <Terkhen> :O
21:26:31  <Terkhen> so it actually makes sense to implement articulated aircrafts
21:26:46  <frosch123> :)
21:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: can't you implement that as a helicopter?
21:27:25  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: does the sledge start vertically?
21:27:41  <Terkhen> hmm... I could also start looking on ground vehicle unification code
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21:28:42  <Terkhen> what would make more sense, renaming AccelerationCache in GroundVehicle to something more generic or creating a separate cache?
21:29:00  * Terkhen prefers the second option
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21:43:10  <LordAro> evenin'
21:43:52  <LordAro> quick question: do the steel and paper trucks (for base set) use the same unloaded sprite? they seem to...
21:46:17  <Terkhen> they do, at least in OpenGFX
21:46:36  <LordAro> thanks for that
21:47:05  <LordAro> its annoying, because the loaded sprites for 32bpp have different (slightly) loaded sprites...
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21:47:30  <LordAro> (i'm re-organising them - t'is a big job)
21:47:36  <Terkhen> good luck with that
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21:48:55  <LordAro> yes, damn varivar and northstar2 doing them separately...:D
21:49:02  <LordAro> graphics are still awesome
21:50:43  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: dns -> lame
21:50:59  <SpComb> S2 has all the gameplay, perhaps better ships, never tried those thoygh
21:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> S2 had way stupid ships
21:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember they had trouble all over the place
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21:52:46  <Eddi|zuHause> what's really missing is a way to attack oversea
21:53:49  <PulseNeon> S2?
21:54:01  <PulseNeon> Sim City 2?
21:54:11  <Belugas> Congratulations to both Rubidium and Lakie!  I've seen somehting i nevr though I would!
21:54:14  <frosch123> thre is no simcity 2
21:54:14  <Belugas> "Fantastic work!"
21:54:33  <ccfreak2k> I'm waiting on SimCity 5-1999.
21:54:45  <ccfreak2k> 3 as well.
21:54:49  <ccfreak2k> 2001-2999 too.
21:55:12  <frosch123> PulseNeon: sc2 means either simcity 2000, or starcraft 2
21:55:21  <ccfreak2k> Or SC2K.
21:55:28  <frosch123> you have to determine that via context :p
21:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: my heuristics isn't really working at that place :p
21:56:01  <frosch123> oh, eddi talked about s2... well, that means settlers 2
21:56:10  <frosch123> though s2g is more usual
21:56:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't have gold back then...
21:57:08  <frosch123> and yes, the ships were stupid :)
21:58:13  <PulseNeon> I just heard S2, not SC..ah.
21:58:16  <PulseNeon> S2 okay.
21:58:24  <PulseNeon> Settlers*
22:02:43  <frosch123> night
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22:06:34  <welshdragon> THE UNOFFICIAL TT - FORUMS AWARDS 2010 ARE NOW OPEN!
22:07:04  <LordAro> :o
22:07:23  <Rubidium> stupid questions...
22:07:39  <Rubidium> like who's the biggest spammer. Only moderators will have a clue about that
22:08:09  <LordAro> rubidium, any update on regression(ai)? (i'm persistant i know)
22:08:26  <Rubidium> huh? what's up with regression AI?
22:08:56  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:09:01  <LordAro> as per here:
22:09:39  <LordAro> it says to run regression, but it stops with a 'unexpected error' sort of message, is this correct?
22:09:45  <Rubidium> welshdragon: also the moment it closes is quite ambiguous. Basically there's a 50 hour timeframe for closing
22:10:19  <Rubidium> yes, as I said before... it runs out before the X regression ticks are done with is a sign that regression ran in time
22:10:30  <Rubidium> although... run make regression and take a look at the diff that shows you
22:10:42  <Rubidium> that should basically be only the stuff you added
22:11:03  <LordAro> the point is i hadn't added anything to regression at that time...
22:11:16  <Rubidium> then make regression should yield nothing
22:12:05  <LordAro> are you saying that the command: bin/ai/regression/ from the link above is incorrect?
22:13:08  <Rubidium> no, but make regression is just simple
22:13:10  <Rubidium> +r
22:13:28  <Rubidium> and for bin/ai/regression/ you must be in bin and then run ai/regression/
22:13:31  <Rubidium> which is cumbersome
22:13:45  <Rubidium> especially as make regression builds and runs regression instead of needed three steps
22:14:07  <Rubidium> regardless, without any changes the regression script should yield exactly 3 lines
22:15:11  <LordAro> umm, it didn't, it listed a huge long list of stuff, that looked like the regression.nut file
22:15:35  <Rubidium> then there is something wrong
22:16:04  <Rubidium> as it's a diff it's probably somewhere at the begin, or middle
22:16:37  <LordAro> i have to go unfortunately :( if you could look into it, that'd be much appreciated :D
22:16:53  <Rubidium> it works for me, so it's something with your build that's wrong
22:16:57  <Rubidium> I can't help with that
22:17:12  <LordAro> ok, i'll have to investigate later
22:17:20  <LordAro> bye for now!
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22:24:53  *** ZxBiohazardZx [] has joined #openttd
22:24:55  <ZxBiohazardZx> heya
22:25:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> lists a HG location
22:25:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> but its not an actual repo?
22:25:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> wasnt able to clone it...
22:27:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> using or
22:28:03  <glx> ZxBiohazardZx:
22:28:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz ty that works
22:28:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> hate that the main page didnt list that
22:28:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well ty :)
22:28:56  <glx> click on the link and you'll see all hg repos ;)
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22:29:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> i know im cloning that works enough
22:30:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> just noticed after you linked up :)
22:32:09  <supermop> hello all
22:34:37  <andythenorth> bed time
22:34:39  <andythenorth> good night :)
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22:43:21  <Terkhen> good night
22:52:01  <SmatZ> good night Terkhen
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