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Log for #openttd on 11th December 2010:
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00:01:24  <fonsinchen> Ahhh, why do I always get lost in those discussions about orders and counting the sent cargo?
00:01:47  <fonsinchen> It is not possible to do that right, sorry fjb.
00:02:12  <fonsinchen> I cannot decide up front when to count the cargo as sent and so it cannot be loaded at the first stop
00:02:43  <fonsinchen> Now I've implemented another stupid "solution" which doesn't cut it. For the third time.
00:02:45  <fjb> Hm, too bad.
00:02:51  * fonsinchen slaps self
00:04:13  <fjb> Is the cargo not counted when actually loading it?
00:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: what if you "unsend" the cargo upon arrival at the second stop?
00:04:29  <polymorphZ> how would you teleport things from one place to another?
00:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> or am i misunderstanding the problem?
00:05:06  <fonsinchen> I don't know where it came from at that point.
00:05:06  <polymorphZ> build a wormhole with 2 ends, or build a teleport, and leave the destination variable?
00:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: you are probably asking the wrong question
00:05:37  <polymorphZ> was thinking about to add teleport to a newgrf :)
00:05:40  <fonsinchen> The cargo is counted when it arrives at a station and gets a new next hop
00:05:48  <fjb> At least you need a Heisenberg Compensator.
00:06:01  <fonsinchen> and also when a vehicle keeps it at a station
00:06:32  <fjb> When is the cargo removed from the station?
00:06:32  <fonsinchen> that means: when it stops, but doesn't unload the cargo
00:06:33  <polymorphZ> fjb: would be a good name for it ;>>
00:08:13  <fonsinchen> I could count it when loading instead of when unloading. That might work. But that still doesn't solve that other guy's problem.
00:08:38  <fjb> What is his problem?
00:09:06  <fonsinchen> If you have a conditional order with nondeterminism between the current station and another one but with a determined next hop after that: Is that deterministic?
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00:09:47  <fonsinchen> If so, I can load the cargo, but I don't know if I should count it as I don't know if the vehicle will stop a second time at the same station.
00:11:15  * fonsinchen will stop thinking about those things now and sleep some.
00:11:25  <fjb> Good idea.
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00:12:17  <planetmaker> quite good one
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00:12:28  * planetmaker waves good night
00:12:36  <fjb> Good night planetmaker.
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00:26:18  <Suzari> o.O
00:26:23  <Suzari> bloody connection
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00:30:59  <supermop> hello
00:32:57  <fjb> Moin supermop
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00:40:43  <Suzari> Do stations need to be upgraded from rail to e-rail?
00:41:29  <supermop> yes
00:46:39  <Suzari> really? huh.
00:46:58  <Suzari> and I wonder, how does one destroy part of a station/i.e. remove a platform but not the whole station
00:48:50  <Rubidium> with a bulldozer instead of dynamite
00:49:20  <Suzari> I only see a bulldozer
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00:50:02  <Ammler> there is also a upgrade tool
00:50:08  <Suzari> err, dynamite, my bad
00:50:38  <Ammler> or rather convert, as it isn't always upgrade :-)
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01:08:58  <Suzari> What is the critical situation that makes an industry disappear?
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01:10:53  <fjb> Not serving it.
01:11:11  <Suzari> I was x.o
01:11:13  <Suzari> it disappeared.
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01:12:54  <fjb> Industries are like girls. They need your attention or they will go away.
01:15:58  <Suzari> But I was serving it. The forest just..disappeared.
01:16:15  <Suzari> trying to learn how to make industries flourish/remain
01:16:23  <supermop> maybe it ran out of trees?
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01:16:54  <Yexo> Suzari: if you use any industry newgrf look at their readme.txt
01:17:09  <Suzari> I don't
01:17:17  <Suzari> It could have run out of trees -nod-
01:17:21  <Suzari> industry never ramped up
01:18:02  <Yexo> you could just have had bad luck, incresaing/decreasing production of industries is random
01:18:14  <Suzari> true -nod-
01:18:18  <Yexo> when the production gets down to 0, it'll disappear
01:18:30  <Suzari> I've had oil wells disappear twice while trying to build an oil line. Grah.
01:18:44  <Suzari> was just curious if there were specific ways to influence it :)
01:18:47  <Yexo> oil wells never increase there production, so they always close after some time
01:19:19  <Suzari> Ah
01:19:26  <Yexo> see http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Industry_production for a longer explanation how the industries work
01:19:28  <Suzari> amusingly enough, the one I'm already serving hasn't
01:19:37  <Suzari> Thanks, I should have read that :)
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02:09:46  <polymorphZ> hmmm
02:10:17  <polymorphZ> why does openttd hang in multiplayer mode ?
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02:11:00  <polymorphZ> linke firefox waiting for reply from website...
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07:44:03  <LordAro> no i'm not :p
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08:28:35  <polymorphZ> h
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08:37:44  <Terkhen> good morning
08:38:02  <LordAro> mornin'
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09:17:02  <polymorphZ> h
09:19:17  * Alberth gives polymorphZ a bag of letters
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10:10:51  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21460 /trunk/src/bridge_gui.cpp: -Change [FS#3975]: place the bridge building window under the mouse instead of somewhere randomly on the screen and change the default sort order
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10:22:23  * andythenorth does ponder
10:22:30  <andythenorth> FIRS forge industry is dumb
10:24:37  <Rubidium> what does it forge?
10:24:38  <Rubidium> papers?
10:25:08  <andythenorth> :D
10:25:41  <andythenorth> it should produce metal
10:26:05  <andythenorth> I had a moment of thinking I knew better than some other person
10:26:12  <andythenorth> so I made it produce engineering supplies and farm supplies
10:26:19  <andythenorth> from iron and wood
10:26:25  <planetmaker> hm. Interesting
10:26:28  <andythenorth> it shortcuts a chain, and is generally stupid
10:26:39  <andythenorth> it just needs to produce metal from iron and wood (charcoal)
10:26:42  <andythenorth> and be inefficient
10:26:47  <andythenorth> and available from year 0
10:27:06  <planetmaker> not sure
10:27:24  <planetmaker> having a cheap and quick access to those supplies is definitely something FIRS can use
10:27:33  <planetmaker> need not be efficient but easily produce supplies
10:27:57  <planetmaker> without shortcut one then might use the more efficient chain
10:28:02  <andythenorth> true
10:28:07  <andythenorth> this is why it's a puzzle for me
10:28:18  <andythenorth> I am not happy with current situation
10:28:25  <planetmaker> what does it do now?
10:28:41  <andythenorth> iron ore / wood -> ENSP / FMSP
10:28:50  <andythenorth> 8t in = 2t out
10:28:52  <planetmaker> well... and why not?
10:29:49  <andythenorth> I don't know what's wrong with it, it just doesn't work in gameplay
10:30:01  <andythenorth> maybe I ask players.  That's always fun :)
10:30:16  <andythenorth> currently it smells wrong
10:30:39  <andythenorth> FIRS has had many good simplifications, and this seems a case of that
10:30:55  <andythenorth> it only exists for two reasons:
10:31:14  <andythenorth> 1. steel mills shouldn't be available until 1740s, but source of metal is needed
10:31:32  <andythenorth> 2. we thought a blacksmith was cute (but we misunderstood how iron was produced)
10:31:53  <andythenorth> 1840s /s
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10:40:26  <andythenorth> I'm thinking of adding an iron works that accepts iron ore and wood
10:41:00  <andythenorth> an alternative is to forget about providing useful industrial economy before certain dates
10:41:15  <andythenorth> or drop the introduction dates for certain industries
10:42:03  <planetmaker> hm... I still then don't see the need to change the output of the forge
10:42:12  <andythenorth> maybe
10:42:38  <andythenorth> it doesn't exist for gameplay reasons though
10:42:49  <andythenorth> it just exists because the plan said we needed something like that
10:43:15  <planetmaker> otoh iron works could well be available from year 0
10:43:24  <andythenorth> indeed
10:43:25  <planetmaker> not a steel plant, but a small version
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10:48:11  <andythenorth> I'm not sure how to limit it's efficiency without crippling it
10:48:49  <planetmaker> Just make it cap at 50% efficiency.
10:48:52  <planetmaker> that's all
10:49:17  <planetmaker> i.e. that one works at best 8t in -> 4t out. While the modern version works at best 8t in -> 8t out
10:49:20  <planetmaker> or alike
10:49:28  <planetmaker> or 3 and 6t out. Whatever
10:49:55  <andythenorth> yup
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10:51:53  <andythenorth> I wish I could think of a way conceptually to limit some industries
10:52:05  <andythenorth> the only option is cripple their efficiency
10:52:41  <Alberth> accept less at a time?
10:52:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you could just have a maximum output, or maximum throughput [surplus input is paid for, but ignored]
10:52:50  <andythenorth> that's stockpiling
10:52:57  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21461 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_gui.cpp): -Feature(tte) [FS#3711]: make it more clear that you're stopping a shared order, and make it possible retain the order list upon unsharing (sbr)
10:53:03  <andythenorth> stockpiling is disallowed
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11:00:14  <fonsinchen> I think I actually got the esoteric order and loading stuff for cargodist right now. (I've thought that before, though ...)
11:00:39  <fonsinchen> In any case going to sleep was a good idea yesterday. I'd have produced a lot of junk otherwise ... :)
11:00:57  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21462 /trunk/src/economy.cpp:
11:00:57  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Codechange [FS#3689]: don't do unnecessary cargo reservations in while
11:00:57  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: loading/unloading vehicles. It is only needed when at least one vehicle is
11:00:57  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: loading; all other times it is a waste of effort. Roughly halves the time it
11:00:57  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: takes to perform loading/unloading of vehicles (fonsinchen)
11:01:18  <fonsinchen> oh, cool
11:01:36  <fonsinchen> Santa Claus has impersonated rubidium.
11:01:53  <Rubidium> really? As I've broken cargodist *again*
11:02:09  <Rubidium> or rather, the patching of cargodist
11:02:12  * LordAro lolz...
11:02:13  <fonsinchen> It's not hard to include that in cargodist. I've done it before
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11:05:20  <Rubidium> planetmaker: you really ought to fix FS#2585. Then I can extrapolate that on the 27th we'll get bug #4410 (a OSX bug) :)
11:05:38  <planetmaker> :-D
11:05:55  <Rubidium> there are almost 1000 issues/year
11:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that's only 3 per day
11:08:45  <Rubidium> 669 bugs in the last 365 days, 640 the 365 days before that, 637 the 366 days before that, 778 the 365 days before that, 293 the 365 days before that
11:09:34  <Rubidium> so less than 2 bug reports a day (average) over the last 4 years :)
11:11:08  * fonsinchen is pondering if it's really correct now.
11:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe grouping by release [trunk leading up to X release, and release branch] would be interesting
11:12:01  <frosch123> 778 is somewhat higher than 637..669
11:12:17  <fonsinchen> I have that extra field in Vehicle that tells me the last station where a vehicle could leave with cargo and which was not "go via".
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11:12:40  <fonsinchen> I set it in LeaveStation, so in LoadUnloadVehicle I still have the old value
11:13:25  <fonsinchen> if the last loading station is the same as the current station I don't count cargo staying in the vehicle as sent, as I've done that before.
11:13:26  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: go ahead and make those stats :)
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11:13:39  <fonsinchen> Is there a way to count cargo twice or not at all?
11:14:45  <Rubidium> not that I'm aware of (but that excludes cargodist)
11:16:11  <frosch123> fonsinchen: what happens if a roadvehicle is just entering a standard roadstop, and it decides to go for serviceing in a depot before starting loading
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11:16:41  <fonsinchen> does it call LeaveStation then?
11:16:52  <frosch123> not sure, maybe
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11:23:06  <fonsinchen> A vehicle cannot go servicing if it's loading and LeaveStation asserts on OT_LOADING
11:23:08  <fonsinchen> so, no
11:23:52  <fonsinchen> btw, that extra check for OT_LOADING in CheckIfRoadVehNeedsService is redundant.
11:27:15  <fonsinchen> (as v->NeedsAutomaticServicing() has returned false and we don't get to that line in that case)
11:37:47  <Terkhen> LordAro: using libicu IS optional; check the readme
11:38:27  <LordAro> noted :)
11:39:03  <LordAro> i just sort of presumed it wasn't, as it was now a (sort of fundamental) feature of ottd...
11:39:07  <Terkhen> although I forgot to add a note about the new feature, yes
11:40:11  <Terkhen> soon I'll post details on how to compile and install a more recent version of libicu
11:41:29  <LordAro> yay! :D
11:51:00  * andythenorth thinks of something slightly evil
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12:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause> if it isn't even moderately evil, you probably shouldn't get started... :p
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12:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there's an error in the tic-tac-toe map...
12:09:53  <planetmaker> he, you really checked each? :-)
12:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause> of course not.
12:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but i was replaying the "canonically optimal game"
12:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. each player picking the steps from this map
12:13:41  <fonsinchen> shall I post a bug report on that line in CheckIfRoadVehNeedsService()?
12:14:39  * andythenorth figures out some things wrong with FISH
12:19:41  <andythenorth> also
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12:19:47  <andythenorth> so much map, so many industries, so little
12:19:48  <andythenorth> time
12:19:58  * andythenorth contemplates trying a daylength patch
12:20:30  <Alberth> it buys you more time today.... oh no, it doesn't
12:21:32  * planetmaker still thinks Alberth's idea of just not progressing the year after December 31st might be a nice thing. Problems might arise with income graphs etc, though
12:21:41  <planetmaker> 1974a, 1974b, 1974c :-P
12:21:54  <planetmaker> like girls age also only 29a, 29b, 29c,...
12:22:46  <Alberth> so it's a girls-aging patch :p
12:24:46  <andythenorth> I could just use build-while-paused
12:25:44  <planetmaker> yeah. But I don't like that
12:25:56  <planetmaker> During pause vehicles don't move.
12:26:11  <planetmaker> And time in my games only progresses so fast because I always need time to watch and enjoy.
12:26:17  <planetmaker> And then 20 years are gone down the drain
12:26:42  <planetmaker> With the fast progression of introduction dates that's spoiling the purpose of consecutively new and better vehicles
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12:50:16  <Ammler> mainly you just need to change constant MAX_YEAR to a setting :-)
12:51:08  <planetmaker> Ammler: if I understood it correctly: the idea was rather to iterate the same year a fixed amount of times and then progress to the next
12:51:16  <planetmaker> like year length instead of day length
12:51:27  <planetmaker> a year with 24 months or so ;-)
12:51:40  <Ammler> FS#1917
12:58:57  <Alberth> ?    the idea is that vehicle introduction + maintenance decay is slowed down only. How does that relate to 5000000 ?
13:00:14  <Alberth> (where 'maintenance decay' is the profile that decides the max reliability over time
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13:29:05  <planetmaker> he... suggestion "more base sets".
13:30:35  <roboboy> replied to that
13:30:45  <roboboy> stupid suggestion
13:31:00  <Ammler> well, there should really be more :-)
13:32:07  <planetmaker> it's not stupid. But pointless unless he gets going himself
13:32:22  <planetmaker> having e.g. a comic base set might indeed be nice
13:32:24  <Terkhen> ideas are cheap :)
13:32:36  <planetmaker> otoh everything can be done easily via newgrf.
13:33:03  <planetmaker> And I have the feeling that NewGRFs fulfill much of the role as those packs for simutrans
13:33:24  <Rubidium> (besides getting it installed by OpenTTD's "Windows"/"OS/2" installer
13:33:55  <planetmaker> that's what OpenTTD has bananas for. Which is quite a unique selling point within this context
13:34:36  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21463 /trunk/src/network/network_udp.cpp: -Fix [FS#4296] (r21405): when packets are filled their pos and size aren't the same as when they're read. As a check was incorrect.
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13:38:47  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21464 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_gui.cpp): -Add: Explicitly make 'shared orders' an option in the orders menu
13:39:57  <ABCRic> Way to stop a compile :P
13:42:14  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21465 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup [FS#4295]: remove some dead code (fonsinchen)
13:42:46  <ABCRic> doh
13:43:05  <LordAro> lolz
13:43:26  <LordAro> don't bother attempting to compile while the devs are active
13:43:30  <ABCRic> Y compilez takez 6 minuts?!
13:43:42  <Alberth> ditch windows :)
13:43:48  <LordAro> it'll just make you want to re-compile :D
13:44:52  <LordAro> ABCRic: 6 minutes? mine (windows 2000 (i know :'( ), intel pentium IV or something, mingw)
13:45:08  <LordAro> *takes about 20
13:45:23  <planetmaker> uh... that's long
13:45:25  <ABCRic> ouch.
13:45:31  <planetmaker> consider using ccache
13:46:12  <LordAro> i know :'(
13:46:17  <ABCRic> I'm using command-line MSVC and it reports ~6.5 minutes in the end
13:46:19  <Rubidium> 6 minutes you say?
13:46:26  <LordAro> my linux machine is much faster :)
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13:46:45  <planetmaker> LordAro: then use that to cross-compile ;-)
13:47:06  <Rubidium> so... 5 minutes
13:47:14  <Terkhen> I use mingw/msys unless I need to debug something or create a binary; only in those cases I use MSVC
13:48:06  <LordAro> planetmaker: linux machine is rarely networked :( , so it rather takes out the point of it...
13:48:14  <ABCRic> Rubidium: 5 minutes?
13:48:25  <Rubidium> now it's 6 minutes since the last commit
13:48:33  <Rubidium> so time to hit enter
13:48:42  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21466 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_func.h vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: make VehicleHasDepotOrders a function of Vehicle.
13:48:48  <Rubidium> mwhahahahahah :)
13:48:56  <Terkhen> once I work around a nasty bug in my linux machine, I want to try if cross compiling is actually faster than compiling with windows
13:49:18  * LordAro runs svn update _again_ >:( :)
13:49:34  <ABCRic> ...
13:49:41  <Terkhen> busy day :)
13:49:52  <ABCRic> codechange iz not important :P
13:50:19  <LordAro> Terkhen (and others) : maybe, as i usually only have the binary on my memory stick anyway...
13:51:22  <LordAro> however, i usually only use compiling for dev work (and patches), not running ottd normally....
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13:53:20  <Rubidium> I'd reckon that the codechanges are usually the most important bits
13:53:41  <Rubidium> the rest is just "enabling" some feature added/made possibly by the codechanges
13:53:53  <planetmaker> :-) Something which one only learns after really dealing with code
13:54:07  * LordAro wonders if the lovely dev team would like a bug report about crashes under WINE...
13:54:38  <Terkhen> if it is not reproducible under win32, then it is probably a WINE bug
13:56:10  <glx> <@Terkhen> once I work around a nasty bug in my linux machine, I want to try if cross compiling is actually faster than compiling with windows <-- should be faster, disk access are slow on windows
13:56:51  <LordAro> Terkhen: i suspect so, as it usually crashes within 10 seconds of it starting...
13:57:12  <LordAro> interestingly though, 32bpp version doesn't... something to do with the blitter?
13:57:44  <glx> no reason for that
13:57:57  <Rubidium> 32bpp version as in using the 32bpp blitter, or that actual (ancient) 32bpp binary?
13:58:24  <LordAro> Rubidium: no, the latest one from openttdcoop repo
13:58:36  <Rubidium> thus ancient
13:58:47  <Terkhen> yes, they are really slow... for example, compiling newgrf projects is faster in a linux virtual machine than in windows
13:59:12  <Terkhen> IIRC crosscompiling OpenTTD from a VM was only a bit slower than with mingw
13:59:47  <Rubidium> LordAro: that version is almost 2 months (or 400 revisions) old
14:00:03  <planetmaker> yeah...
14:00:16  <Terkhen> but with my awesome 20K/s speed I can't test crosscompiling in a real machine right now
14:00:22  <LordAro> ahh, but ottd version under wine has been crashing much longer than that
14:00:35  <LordAro> found some crash files: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KDSX9DI8
14:01:02  <Rubidium> unavailable files are useless
14:01:41  <LordAro> stupid megaupload, hang on, i'll use someone else...
14:01:42  <glx> why run openttd through wine when a native alternative exists ???
14:02:05  <LordAro> limited internet connection?
14:02:49  <planetmaker> 4MB hardly kill any i-net connection...
14:02:51  <glx> then put the linux binary on your usb stick
14:04:32  <LordAro> glx: thats an idea!
14:04:41  <LordAro> crash files (again) : http://www.mediafire.com/?zv61rdqk4xnrxyt
14:05:49  <glx> crash.dmp seems very small
14:06:01  <LordAro> sorry about mediafire/megaupload btw, don't really have anything better... unless you can suggest one :D
14:06:54  <Rubidium> it crashes somewhere in a .dll, so it's very likely a wine thing
14:07:10  <Rubidium> furthermore the crash seems to happen in mciseq.dll, i.e. the midi playback
14:07:19  <glx> crash in mciseq.dll
14:07:27  <planetmaker> looking at the screenshot it's a display thing possibly
14:07:27  <glx> are you using openmsx ?
14:08:16  <Rubidium> planetmaker: more likely he was zooming in
14:08:32  <Rubidium> see how the top bit roads are bigger than the lower bit
14:08:55  <planetmaker> hm, or that
14:08:57  <Rubidium> midi playback runs asynchroniously, so that is still a very plausible cause
14:09:38  <glx> it looks like the known midi problem :)
14:10:49  <LordAro> glx: couldn't tell you, crash files from a while ago now
14:10:59  <LordAro> midi problem of ottd or wine?
14:11:33  <LordAro> i'll see if i can get a newer one for you, might be a while though, due to computer issues :(
14:11:36  <glx> Music set:    OpenMSX (88) <-- you are using openmsx
14:12:10  * LordAro remembers something
14:12:36  <LordAro> i might have been running that (vaguely) bugged version of openmsx
14:12:53  <glx> so stop the music or run with -mnull
14:13:22  <glx> and the crash should disappear
14:13:58  <ABCRic> or use the dmusic driver
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14:17:14  <ABCRic> Well, I'm off. I'll be back.
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14:17:36  <glx> dmusic has a known bug too :) (sometimes it takes forever to initialise)
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14:59:03  <DanMacK> Hello all
15:00:18  <Terkhen> hi DanMacK
15:05:20  <roboboy> gnight
15:07:13  <andythenorth> FISH ships are too similar in appearance, and too conveniently spaced in size
15:07:20  <andythenorth> I should do something about that
15:07:41  <Terkhen> good night roboboy
15:10:41  <Terkhen> LordAro: do you mind testing if the new libicu instructions work for you?
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15:14:51  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21467 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp settings_gui.cpp settings_internal.h): -Doc: Add a few doxygen comments to config file settings code.
15:15:13  <Terkhen> oh, the binary size is 2MB smaller with 4.6 :)
15:15:29  <DanMacK> Andy, you should :P  You should also add some sailing ships and/or steamers :P
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15:15:38  <DanMacK> Lakie, LTNS
15:15:49  <LordAro> Terkhen: with 4.6?
15:18:16  <Lakie> Hi DanMacK, whats LTNS?
15:18:16  * Lakie thinks he joined as DanMacK was tabbing
15:18:36  <DanMacK> Long Time No See :P
15:19:07  <Lakie> Heh yeah.
15:20:13  <Rubidium> Lakie: frosch has some concerns about randomaction "parent" scope random bits being the northern tile random bits
15:20:46  <frosch123> counter proposal: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/IndirectAddressing_ttdp.diff and http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/IndirectAddressing.txt
15:20:52  <frosch123> (diff completely untested)
15:20:55  <Lakie> Ok, I figured there might be some concerns
15:21:26  <frosch123> the .diff is "option 2" form the .txt
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15:29:05  <Lakie> So if I understand this correctly, one fetches a variable stores it in a reigster and then passes it to some location for using as 83?
15:29:25  <Lakie> (I'm going to presume so it can be used similarly for houses, stations and such)
15:30:58  <frosch123> it allows passing the "realtive offset" variable of objects or stations to the "nearby tiles"-information variables
15:31:17  <frosch123> so you can read randombits, animation states and similiar
15:35:25  <fonsinchen> shadow orders to identify additional stops for stopping orders ...
15:35:53  <fonsinchen> what I'd do is split Order into three types BaseOrder, Order and StoppingOrder
15:36:09  <fonsinchen> BaseOrder only has destination and next
15:36:16  <fonsinchen> Order is like it is now
15:36:42  <fonsinchen> StoppingOrder additionally has two pointers to BaseOrders: shadow_orders and current_shadow_order
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15:37:23  <fonsinchen> Then I can have an educated guess about the next station a vehicle will stop at, even if the current order isn't non-stop.
15:38:15  <fonsinchen> (by looking at where it stopped last time)
15:38:31  <fonsinchen> good? bad? ideas?
15:39:24  <Lakie> So dynamic 60+x arguments, frosch123?
15:39:33  <frosch123> yes
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16:52:51  <supermop> good morning
16:54:36  * DanMacK waves
16:55:11  <supermop> well hello there
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16:57:51  <DanMacK> That was kind of dumb...  hit the wrong button
17:06:37  <supermop> hm
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17:15:36  <andythenorth> any FISH fans here?
17:15:42  <andythenorth> changes are afoot
17:15:57  <LordAro> woo!
17:16:06  <andythenorth> removals not additions
17:16:20  <Terkhen> :O
17:16:30  <Terkhen> what are you going to remove?
17:16:44  <supermop> i am a fan
17:17:05  <andythenorth> remove the mid-sized coaster and mid-sized trader
17:17:13  <andythenorth> then juggle some of the sizes of the others
17:17:31  <andythenorth> it's a bit 'meh' at the moment
17:17:34  <supermop> hm
17:17:48  <andythenorth> it's a boring progression
17:18:06  <andythenorth> start small, increase industry production, swap to medium, increase again, swap to large :P
17:20:40  <supermop> i do like the visual vareity of the different sizes
17:21:18  <fonsinchen> Argh, if I really want to split up Order into 3 classes like Vehicle with pooling and everything, the patch will be HUGE.
17:21:44  <fonsinchen> Maybe I can come up with something less invasive ...
17:22:42  <Terkhen> hmmm...
17:23:09  <Terkhen> it makes sense, I usually jump from the small ships to the large ones directly
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17:26:29  <andythenorth> when I add various size of tugboat it will make more sense
17:26:40  <andythenorth> there will be a spread of sizes, but different types of boat
17:27:08  <Terkhen> I see :)
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17:29:10  <andythenorth> I would request a pony for different water  types
17:29:27  <andythenorth> but I don't think there is enough variety in ship speeds to make it have a worthwhile effect
17:29:41  <DanMacK> Not really, no
17:29:50  <DanMacK> We need Roadtypes though :P
17:30:11  <andythenorth> ships that can't travel on large expanses of open water would be more interesting game-play wise
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17:30:22  <andythenorth> similarly, ships that can't navigate 1 tile canal / river
17:30:54  <DanMacK> Yes...  although common sense prevails as well :P
17:33:21  <supermop> i would love to see watertypes, but I agree that roadtypes are more pressing
17:33:47  <andythenorth> I'm not sure
17:34:00  <andythenorth> I reckon everything would end up as 'highway' or whatever
17:34:26  <DanMacK> The gravel tracks are what I want :)
17:34:38  <andythenorth> visually, or for gameplay?
17:34:54  <supermop> i want rough roads for heqs
17:34:57  <supermop> etc
17:35:27  <supermop> rather id like heqs to move like ships over open land, but that sounds like a bad idea
17:35:28  <andythenorth> I think roadtypes aren't interesting for gameplay if it's only for speed and appearance
17:35:46  <andythenorth> if they affect vehicle performance that's interesting
17:35:56  <andythenorth> and if they restrict 'classes' of vehicle that's another
17:36:07  <andythenorth> so buses couldn't share road with HEQS mining trucks for example
17:36:12  <supermop> yeah
17:36:31  <andythenorth> it would keep some vehicles out of town as well
17:36:37  <Terkhen> it does not make much sense to allow buses in rough roads
17:36:49  <planetmaker> Safari!
17:36:58  <supermop> a special 'town road' type would be nice
17:37:31  <supermop> prohibit heqs on town road, inhibit house growth on non-town road
17:38:36  <planetmaker> supermop: conceptionally it would need something similar to rail types where those things are newgrf-able properties
17:38:48  <planetmaker> Introducing a separate road type for that hard-coded is a no-go
17:39:08  <andythenorth> he has a spec somewhere
17:39:16  <andythenorth> mr1138
17:39:24  <planetmaker> even an old (semi-)abandond repository
17:40:38  <supermop> yeah
17:40:48  <supermop> i am only talking newgrf wise
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17:47:42  <IchGuckLive> hi all from deep in snow germany !
17:49:06  <IchGuckLive> got a question on the sbstadies . 1train is about 20tiles befor the final destination ! to reatch the subsety the source has already a full load to carry a second train
17:49:13  <planetmaker> supermop: I think there are few people who dispute that road types would be very useful :-) As with so many things.... the *someone* is slacking :-P
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17:50:17  <supermop> yep, it always seems to be that way
17:50:17  <IchGuckLive> can i bay a second train and let im move bevor it gets the subsedy in place or shoudt i wait till it is establisht??
17:50:37  <polymorphZ> hey-ho
17:50:46  <DanMacK> You can start it anytime
17:51:24  <DanMacK> The first train has to arive to begin the subsidy, but you can have 20 trains immediately behind it
17:51:39  <supermop> speaking of which, what is the limit on bridges, and can they be implimented like railtypes yet? that is, adding additional bridges via newgrf?
17:51:43  <DanMacK> and they'll be subsidized as well
17:51:44  <polymorphZ> why does a train try to go backwards to a oneway pathfinder light after coming out of a depot ? ;/
17:51:51  <planetmaker> oh, a DanMacK - hello :-)
17:51:58  <DanMacK> Hey PM
17:52:44  <IchGuckLive> Thanks DanMacK so ,all the arriving trains after the subvention is established that carries the product it is subvention will get the multiplier
17:53:06  <b_jonas> rough roads -- would those have a speed limit?
17:53:16  <b_jonas> highways already exist though, they're called one-way roads
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17:53:37  <Kurenin> they don't function though
17:53:44  <Kurenin> as the cars stay on one side of the road
17:53:55  <andythenorth> how do railtypes work?  the railtype sets the speed, or the vehicle runs a cb?
17:54:04  <Terkhen> fixing road vehicle overtaking / use of one way roads is a different issue
17:54:13  <DanMacK> Correct
17:54:25  <IchGuckLive> DanMacK: to me?
17:54:28  <Kurenin> one thing I think i'd really like in ottd is the ability for speed priority
17:54:45  <Kurenin> so that trains and road vehicles go in certain areas based on their speed
17:54:47  <Kurenin> i.e.
17:54:50  <Kurenin> if you have 3 tracks
17:55:00  <Kurenin> the slow trains go on the inside and faster trains go on the middle
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17:55:11  <Kurenin> you can do it with signalling provided the trains go to different stations
17:55:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth: railtypes (can) define a max speed
17:55:33  <planetmaker> the vehicles (can) also use a callback
17:56:01  <planetmaker> the max speed is the minimum of railtype and vehicle max speed
17:56:52  <IchGuckLive> @ all is there a hight score to reach for the first million with no cheats start/end year  ? B)
17:57:34  <IchGuckLive> maybee with a given random 555555555
17:58:42  <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: there are so many variables any such high score is pointless when it comes to comparing them
17:59:24  <IchGuckLive> this random gives a nice terrain and industries map
17:59:27  <IchGuckLive> ok
18:01:16  <IchGuckLive> so by for today i will reatch this in 3years with this random thats my thing to go for °!
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18:28:49  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21468 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Change: make sure the end of a bridge is always a valid tile as well, and for aqueducts show "wrong land slope" when that would be more appropriate than "bridge heads not at same height"
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18:45:37  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21469 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:37  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:37  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: basque - 32 changes by HerrBasque
18:45:38  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: english_US - 5 changes by Rubidium
18:45:38  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
18:45:38  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
18:45:38  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by planetmaker
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19:16:28  <Lakie> Sorry frosch123, internet died on me
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19:18:42  <frosch123> gave me time to clean the dishes :p
19:19:59  * Lakie also wrote a (mostly) working clone of Rubidium's gui
19:21:00  <planetmaker> the last four letters are important ;-)
19:21:07  <frosch123> anyway, i do not even know whether the ttdp diff compiles :)
19:21:56  <frosch123> no cross compile enviroment on this computer, and did not bother to boot the other one :)
19:24:26  <Lakie> I'll have a go at it after trimming through some massive diff to push important fixes for ttdpatch. :)
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19:34:42  <Terkhen> http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/patches/partial_refit/select_all.png <--- I'm not very convinced about the placement of the Select All button... what do you think? (ignore the buggy selection)
19:36:49  <frosch123> ask those, who think it is needed :)
19:38:09  <ccfreak2k> Where's the button?
19:38:16  <ccfreak2k> And what exactly is its function?
19:38:22  <frosch123> "All"
19:38:49  <Terkhen> ccfreak2k: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51211 <--- context
19:39:03  <frosch123> select all vehicles, instead of ctrl+clicking the first, (or even clicking somewhere else?)
19:39:14  <Terkhen> it allows to select all the consist for refitting
19:39:30  <ccfreak2k> Perhaps it should be placed right below the horiztonal scroller.
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19:39:41  <Terkhen> frosch123: right now clicking outside of the train works, and I'm also planning to add the ctrl+click behaviour
19:39:46  <frosch123> ccfreak2k: the font is higher than the scrollbar
19:40:14  <ccfreak2k> Then it shall forever be placed in GUI pergutory.
19:40:15  <frosch123> Terkhen: imo clicking outside the train is easy enough, no need for a button
19:40:32  <Bah5222> now i love openttd and all but all the city growing parts of it has given me a bad itch to wanna play simcity again does anyone know a free/open source simcity type thing?
19:40:36  <Bah5222> they should make one
19:40:37  <Terkhen> ctrl+click and clicking outside is also enough for me
19:40:52  <Terkhen> Bah5222: who are "they"?
19:41:00  <Bah5222> Terkhen well anyone
19:41:06  <Bah5222> an opensimcity
19:41:08  <andythenorth> Terkhen: does 'all' get longer in any other languages?
19:41:09  <Bah5222> would be cool
19:41:21  <Bah5222> since maxis is too busy with sims to care about simcity
19:42:15  <Terkhen> Bah5222: I'm not planning to do that, but google might know if anyone is
19:42:21  <Terkhen> andythenorth: probably
19:42:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: if you do "Complete", "Everything", "Whole consist", there is hardly space for the train :p
19:42:38  <Bah5222> just was curious if that was around heh
19:42:43  <Bah5222> but i do love openttd too
19:42:44  <andythenorth> well maybe the design is broken then :D
19:42:51  <Terkhen> hmm... you convinced me, bye bye button :)
19:42:52  <Bah5222> just was getting an itch cuz of all the city growing
19:42:55  <frosch123> Bah5222: there is lincity for decades, or so
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19:43:07  <andythenorth> what is the default selection when I open the refit window?
19:43:16  <frosch123> but it likely is closer to simcity 1, than what you may know as "simcity"
19:43:18  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the whole train
19:43:19  <andythenorth> (I haven't compiled a recent version of the patch - sorry)
19:43:33  <Bah5222> i know simcity 1 but yeah
19:43:47  <Bah5222> i was thinking more the 2000-3000-4 type of perspective
19:43:50  <Bah5222> that open ttd also has
19:43:51  <Terkhen> it also is highlighted completely which it did not in previous versions
19:44:03  <ABCRic> Bah5222: isometric?
19:44:22  <ABCRic> try lincity-NG
19:44:29  <frosch123> Bah5222: actually google images of "lincity" look simliar to that
19:44:41  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
19:44:46  <frosch123> oh, indeed lincity-ng :)
19:45:18  <Bah5222> thanks
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19:46:13  <Terkhen> hmm... I only knew about micropolis
19:46:21  <ABCRic> I think development has stalled though
19:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, clean compile with -j12 takes: real    0m40.071s, user    2m59.548s, sys     0m10.310s
19:47:16  <Ammler> that we have with j2 :-)
19:48:54  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21470 /trunk/src/ (map.cpp map_func.h): -Codechange: add method to get the distance from the edge in a given direction
19:49:33  <andythenorth> Terkhen: use the ctrl-click magic
19:49:47  <andythenorth> it's not easy to learn, but that's consistent across the rest of the game
19:49:56  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21471 /trunk/src/ (dock_gui.cpp lang/english.txt tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Change [FS#4153]: make building aqueducts behave more like building tunnels. They can't be built on flat (or foundationed) tiles, so there is at most one destination tile like there is only one for tunnels
19:49:58  <Terkhen> yes, I'm going to use clicking outside of the train + ctrl_click
19:50:39  <Terkhen> hmmm... with that I mean both options, not doing both things at the same time :)
19:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i figure that "user" is unaffected by number of cores
19:52:01  <Ammler> ah ok, then I should check again
19:52:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you see, "user" is almost 6 times "real".
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20:39:32  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21472 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4298] (r21459-ish): make sure the query window is only opened once per parent window / callback.
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21:00:11  <volta> hi folks. is it possible to get a list of waypoints? (like it's done with stations)
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21:11:08  <PulseNeon> I'm guessing they are -under- the station list
21:12:46  <frosch123> i guess there is no list of waypoints and buoys
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21:47:13  <Terkhen> good night
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22:00:46  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen
22:07:15  *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
22:12:17  <supermop> just had the worst reuben in my life
22:23:08  *** michi_cc [michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i never had reuben in my life.
22:25:46  * DanMacK hasn't either, but would definitely try one
22:25:48  <supermop> well, I hope that if you ever do,
22:26:05  <DanMacK> although apparently not from where Supermop had his...
22:26:28  <supermop> it embodies the wonderful potential of the sandwich, unlike today's reuben
22:27:19  <DanMacK> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_sandwich
22:27:58  <frosch123> the "creators" section feels weird
22:29:22  <frosch123> two guys, one with forename "ruben", the other one with surname
22:30:11  <supermop> yeah, there really is not any conclusive evidence
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22:31:07  <supermop> but it is definately a staple of American delis for the past 50 or so years
22:33:29  <fjb> No culture...
22:33:55  <DanMacK> Hey Supermop, BTW, any plans for water towers or sevicing facilities for MLSS?
22:36:14  <supermop> oh man
22:36:23  <supermop> yeah I was thinking of it
22:36:41  <supermop> i have a few feeder station tiles
22:37:20  <supermop> i hit a brick wall trying to code fences
22:37:20  <DanMacK> I was thinking water tower and coaling towers...
22:37:38  <supermop> sorry for the bad pun
22:37:52  <supermop> anyway havent touched mlss for a couple of weeks
22:38:01  <DanMacK> No apologies necessary...
22:38:07  <supermop> i will try to pick it up tomorrow
22:38:21  <supermop> but I want to code all of the sprites i have drawn first
22:39:30  <DanMacK> Yeah...  no probs, just wondering :P
22:41:20  <DanMacK> One can only use IRS station bits so much... lol
22:42:33  <planetmaker> ISR?
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22:44:14  <supermop> hmm maybe we need a irs station set
22:44:22  <Chrill> supermop: play openttd? :D
22:44:35  <supermop> do I in general, yes
22:44:43  <Chrill> against me in 10-15 minutes? :D
22:44:53  <supermop> At work again
22:44:55  <Chrill> oh
22:44:57  <Chrill> stupid work
22:44:58  <Chrill> :(
22:45:03  <Chrill> E
22:45:10  <Chrill> We do need to play some day
22:45:11  <supermop> I could late tonight
22:45:14  <Chrill> I miss multiplaying :(
22:45:25  <Chrill> late tonight means when in what timezone? :P
22:45:29  * DanMacK does as well
22:45:41  <Chrill> well lets set up a game then!
22:45:52  <supermop> eastern standard time
22:46:06  <Chrill> supermop: so your 9pm is my 6pm?
22:46:11  <supermop> yes
22:46:22  * DanMacK is at work as well... lol
22:47:44  <PulseNeon> IRS station?
22:47:49  <Chrill> damn you responsible people working for an income
22:50:03  <ABCRic> You're right, it would be way better if we didn't have an economy
22:50:37  <ABCRic> 'cos if we didn't, it couldn't be in crisis
22:51:03  <ABCRic> and everyone would be happy! :D
22:51:07  <PulseNeon> I fail to see the faulty logic in that :D
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22:53:23  <Chrill> ABCRic: ABSOLUTELY :D :D :D
22:54:01  <Chrill> We could go back to a trade economy
22:57:32  <ABCRic> I think the world would be a better place if we used funny images as currency
22:57:42  <Chrill> hah
22:57:51  <Chrill> I've heard that from xkcd
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23:13:56  <andythenorth> time for bed
23:13:58  <andythenorth> good night
23:14:09  <supermop> ok
23:14:20  <supermop> good night andy
23:14:50  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21473 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Feature [FS#4279]: [NewGRF] Use the station graphics property to determine a fallback for the depot sprites
23:14:56  <planetmaker> good night andythenorth
23:15:10  <planetmaker> hm... Those RVs will be great, DanMacK :-)
23:15:21  <planetmaker> Red noses fit the season ;-)
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23:17:20  <V453000> yarrr
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23:17:37  <V453000> btw there should be a switch to add face-vehicles also to other climates :P
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23:18:07  <planetmaker> V453000: I'm coding the base set itself. That can't have a switch ;-)
23:18:20  <V453000> oh, I see
23:18:29  <V453000> I thought opengfx+ vehicles
23:18:44  <supermop> danmack; i think i will do an old and middle coal fueling tile, old middle and new oil tanks,
23:18:53  <supermop> not sure about watering
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23:20:47  <DanMacK> Nice
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23:21:49  <supermop> there is already a circa 1910 and a modern electric feeder station
23:22:29  <DanMacK> I'd say a couple of water towers...  Older style woden and a big "modern" steel
23:23:28  <supermop> well i think i will not have any steam related stuff newer than about 1930-40 in style
23:23:47  <supermop> as those would have easily stood until the end of steam traction
23:25:48  <DanMacK> Easily
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