Log for #openttd on 12th December 2010:
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00:16:02  <supermop> hello
00:16:47  <avdg> hi
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01:21:25  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21474 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix: some MSVC code analysis warnings in strgen
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03:04:08  <juliano> hmm...
03:04:43  <juliano> 32bpp-anim seems broken if _screen->pitch != _screen->width
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04:50:22  <PulseNeon> o.O
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06:09:51  <PulseNeon> Is it possible to make/buy extra trailers for road vehicles in OpenTTD?
06:19:29  <avdg> no, however, there are longer trucks/busses available in some sets
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07:22:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't composited sprites for vehicles be a huge performance suck?
07:22:51  <Chrill> is there anyone who wants to host and play a lazy casual game of ottd? :D
07:29:21  <avdg> check openttdcoop
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07:48:33  <thefiler> hi there
07:48:51  <thefiler> i need some help resolving a problem which im having
07:49:36  <LordAro> go on then ;)
07:51:01  <thefiler> gameloadfailed
07:51:26  <thefiler> save game made with never version
07:51:37  <thefiler> I dont understand i've got the latest version installed
07:51:42  <LordAro> which version do you have?
07:52:24  <thefiler> v1.0.5
07:52:59  <thefiler> i really need to get that file open
07:53:00  <LordAro> the save was almost certainly made with a nightly version, where did you get the save?
07:53:52  <thefiler> i might have loaded a nightly version to check something wayback (2weeks ago),
07:54:24  <thefiler> i've basically moved ttd over to my new pc, and wanted to start playing again, when i notice the problem
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07:55:11  <LordAro> in that case the only way you're going to play that particular save is if: a) revert to an older version (autosave?) or b) load a nightly version
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07:56:12  <thefiler> so i would be able to take autosave and make it into a scenario again
07:56:52  <LordAro> as long as the autosave was saved while in 1.0.5
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07:57:44  <LordAro> <-- this explains a lot about OpenTTD versions :)
07:58:39  <thefiler> it think i played in the previous version to what it out now
07:59:05  <LordAro> ? explain more please
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07:59:08  <thefiler> thanks let me try
08:01:44  <thefiler> i guest i just rename the autosave file to .scn
08:02:48  <LordAro> if you want it as a scenario...
08:04:14  <thefiler> yes... sorry for asking the stupid question... i just play the game for its such a good old classic. all these nightly things and add-ons confuses me alot a times :)
08:04:48  <thefiler> i try not to do too must when it comes to add extra stuff to the game play
08:04:57  <LordAro> well the obvious answer is don't use them...;)
08:05:42  <LordAro> the nightly will be merged with trunk for 1.1.0, which, by my estimations, shouldn't be too far away...
08:06:10  <LordAro> expecting it (in beta at least) sometime in 2011
08:06:19  <LordAro> don't quote me on that though :D
08:07:02  <LordAro> you'd be better off asking the devs, and probably even they don't know (haven't decided yet)
08:07:13  <LordAro> ...but we can live in hope :)
08:07:27  <SmatZ> LordAro: nightly == trunk
08:07:38  <SmatZ> 1.1 will be branched form trunk
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08:08:07  <LordAro> i meant that, i've got no idea why i wrote the other thing...
08:09:59  <thefiler> I still dont really know the differents between the two versions that good
08:10:19  <LordAro> see the picture link i posted above
08:10:41  <thefiler> i think the reason for me loading the nightly was, I didnt want any of my industries to close down, or go down in production...
08:10:42  <LordAro> and ignore anything i say on the subject :D
08:28:08  <thefiler> i wish that would make a copy and paste option... that would be so cool
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08:37:55  <planetmaker> moin
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09:02:03  <roboboy> evin
09:03:24  <Alberth> moin roboboy
09:24:42  <thefiler> is there no way to stop new industries from starting without using the nightly
09:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't composited sprites for vehicles be a huge performance suck? <-- why would it be worse than for houses?
09:30:08  <andythenorth> I don't know
09:30:13  <andythenorth> it's a question :)
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09:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm the wrong person to judge that
09:31:33  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: vehicles are re-drawn much more often than houses
09:33:55  <planetmaker> also I don't quite understand why vehicle lights would need a separate sprite...
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09:34:26  <Terkhen> good morning
09:36:09  <planetmaker> heya Terkhen
09:36:17  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: take the DBSet for example. most wagons are symmetric (4 sprites drawn), but also every such wagon [for every loading state] has to have a version with red lights, which is asymmetric [8 sprites necessary]. so it triples the amount of sprites
09:37:26  <planetmaker> adding more sprites per vehicle eats more cpu. That is IMHO more critical than this bit extra memory
09:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's more about the drawing [lots of copy paste] than the memory
09:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: this assembled sprite may very well be cached by the game
09:38:25  <planetmaker> true that
09:38:50  <planetmaker> though it still feels to me as quite complicated.
09:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and George once said he got stuck with LV5 development because this wasn't possible
09:41:26  <planetmaker> sure it was that?
09:41:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
09:42:46  <Alberth> thefiler: afaik that is also the case with the released versions
09:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker:
09:47:44  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but his issue there is not the need to assemble the look of a vehicle. His need is to avoid glitches:
09:47:55  <planetmaker> where that is one of the solutions he proposed.
09:48:04  <planetmaker> Thus the attack vector is completely different
09:48:11  <andythenorth> it would for me be primarily be about load sprites
09:48:25  <andythenorth> which can be composited at the graphics stage, but I hate doing it :P
09:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what does the reason why he wants it have to do with it?
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09:50:15  <planetmaker> his desire might have much different solutions which might be much better suitable to it than multi-sprite vehicles
09:50:58  <andythenorth> another use would be to composite greeble onto ships
09:51:02  <andythenorth> but
09:51:15  <planetmaker> e.g. if he needs a sharp pencil and concludes to need a new one, a pencil sharpener might do the trick just as well
09:51:20  <andythenorth> I thought about this - compositing is available for industry tiles, but I don't use it much
09:51:27  <andythenorth> I could do snow for example by compositiing
09:51:38  <andythenorth> but it's ultimately simpler to just duplicate sprites
09:51:41  <andythenorth> simplicity wins :P
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10:14:44  <thefiler> Alberth: ??
10:15:50  <Alberth> (10:25:35) thefiler: is there no way to stop new industries from starting without using the nightly <-- response to that
10:17:13  * andythenorth is too busy micro-managing to connect even part of the map :(
10:17:24  <andythenorth> who's idea was it to allow industry production to increase? :P
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10:19:08  <thefiler> sorry im dumb at this things... so with other word no... end of story
10:23:17  * andythenorth needs an AI that will run food service to towns (from FIRS industries)
10:24:22  <Alberth> thefiler: at least not at this moment, but patches are welcome :p     you'll have to find a nice solution for the forced builds of industries though
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10:34:36  <thefiler> noob question... so there is noway for me to set my industry not to change production
10:35:55  <Alberth> changing production is different from starting new industries
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10:37:52  <Alberth> there is a 'manual industries' newgrf that gives you full control over industries. (hmm, now that I think about it, maybe it also controls appearance of new industries, I don't know.) Have a look yourself!   Its URL is in the FAQ somewehere
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10:45:58  <andythenorth> improved?
10:46:02  <andythenorth> (work in progress)
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10:51:22  <thefiler> Alberth: but with that "manual industries" newgrf you have to run it with nightly
10:53:35  <Alberth> there are two versions, according to this text:
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11:13:50  <thefiler> Alberth: ill have look see... how long are you still going to be here
11:14:30  <Alberth> oh, 7-8 hours at least
11:16:45  <thefiler> cool, just need to start making lunch quickly then ill be back to test and ask for more help if you dont mind
11:24:49  <Alberth> I don't play that often, I tend to hack in the code instead :)    Just ask in the channel, and someone will likely answer it (if they know an answer)
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11:34:35  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21475 /trunk/src/fontcache.cpp: -Fix: MSVC's code analyser says DeleteObject shouldn't be called with NULL
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11:37:55  <roboboy> can MSVC build for Win9x on NT based platforms?
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11:39:09  <Rubidium> IIRC MSVC 2003 and earlier can
11:39:34  <roboboy> ok
11:39:53  <roboboy> won't bother then as I have MSVC 2008
11:40:19  <roboboy> although I think I have cds for MSVC 2003 Express somewhere
11:41:04  <Rubidium> I do assume that you want to use it to compile something else than OpenTTD though
11:41:27  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r21476 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Fix [FS#4299]: DC_FORCE_CLEAR_TILE should only add extra cost for clearing water for stuff which results in water after clearing.
11:42:44  <roboboy> well I did a course and I got the profesional edition of VS 2008 for free as part of the course. MS' licensce says so long as I do not sell my binaries commercialy I can build anything I like with it
11:43:23  <roboboy> that is their special student liscense
11:43:33  <Rubidium> I know :)
11:46:58  <roboboy> I might try to get MINGW/MSYS set up on my other machine once I get a new fan for it and then compile for (x and DOS
11:47:04  <roboboy> blah 9x
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12:33:19  <thefiler> :(
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12:42:55  <thefiler> guys i really need help with disabling industries closing down... its annoying the living day lights out of me
12:43:17  <thefiler> or even new one's starting up
12:43:27  <thefiler> Alberth: you here
12:43:32  <planetmaker> service the industries. And they don't close
12:43:42  <planetmaker> or use manual industries newgrf
12:43:57  <thefiler> is imposible to service them all within the 5yrs
12:44:16  <thefiler> im trying to use the manual newgrf... i cant seem to get it to work
12:44:21  <Xaroth> not impossible, just.. highly unlikely :P
12:44:23  <thefiler> do i have to use nightly
12:44:33  <thefiler> Xaroth: lol
12:44:45  <Alberth> build less industries at first, or just let them close down, you'll get new ones
12:45:06  <Alberth> or use a smaller map :p
12:45:38  <thefiler> Alberth: dont wanna use a smaller map :( and I dont want new ones starting up... its screwing up my scn map :(
12:45:38  <planetmaker> yep
12:45:52  <planetmaker> thefiler: then indeed use the manual industries newgrf
12:46:22  <planetmaker> "not working" is not an acceptable problem description, btw
12:47:30  <thefiler> planetmaker: sorry for all the question would sound stupid to you guys... Im not so into the fine tuning of all these settings... i just wanna play the game my way lol.
12:47:48  <thefiler> planetmaker: so ill use the manual industries newgrf with nightly
12:47:50  <planetmaker> I don't mind questions. I mind people going "it doesn't work. What do I do wrong"
12:48:02  <thefiler> sorry
12:48:12  <planetmaker> as "doesn't work" is never a description of what you did or tried and what fails exactly
12:48:31  <Alberth> thefiler: no need to be sorry, just try to do better
12:48:32  <planetmaker> nor what you expect it to do actually. Might not even be a bug ;-)
12:48:32  <thefiler> ill try the nightly version and see what happens and report back in 5min
12:49:25  <Alberth> 5 year game time is about 60 minutes :)
12:49:33  <planetmaker> hehe ;-)
12:49:40  <planetmaker> except in FF :-P
12:50:13  * roboboy ponders playing a UKRS2 64x64 map wit 2 towns
12:50:29  <planetmaker> :-D
12:50:45  <frosch123> thefiler: you need to enable manual industries in the intro screen, and you have to start a new game with that
12:50:48  <planetmaker> might turn out difficult to make break even
12:50:54  <frosch123> you cannot add manual industries to a running game
12:51:29  <planetmaker> hm... outside it alternates between snow and rain. I guess I'm lucky I don't have to go outside.
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12:51:43  <roboboy> do newgrf presets get shared between versions installed?
12:51:49  <frosch123> manual industries 2 will also work in ottd 1.x with it's default settings, but there is no easy way to configure it
12:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: yes, as long as they share the .cfg
12:52:33  <frosch123> roboboy: they are shared between those installations which share a openttd.cfg :p
12:52:46  <roboboy> ok
12:53:44  <planetmaker> roboboy: it's IMHO always a good idea to just use one cfg in the shared folder (like c:\documents\own files\Openttd - or however windows names that folder)
12:54:38  <roboboy> C:\Users\Username\My Documents\OpenTTD for me on Win7
12:54:51  <planetmaker> yeah, it varies by windows version
12:55:04  <planetmaker> and actually also by localization
12:55:30  <planetmaker> though there might be (hidden) symlinks to the English paths
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13:01:25  <roboboy> like C:\Documents and Settings\Username\My Documents on Vista plus
13:02:11  <roboboy> is it intended that station signs in the newspaper show the TTD style even if I have them set to be transparent
13:05:59  <roboboy> ?
13:06:26  <Xaroth> do they show transparent buildings?
13:06:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
13:06:53  <roboboy> hm I geuse
13:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't even think it's possible, because you can't apply both the transparent-recolouring and the black&white-recolouring at the same time
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13:08:48  <peter1138> you still can't spell guess? heh
13:11:47  <thefiler> frosch123: will it work with a scn which was already been created pre-hand or not?
13:12:20  <frosch123> no, you would have to remove all industries from the map and replace them with those from manual industries
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13:12:43  <roboboy> well TTDP manages to do it (show transparent station signs in the newspaper) but then it doesn't call it a transparency option
13:12:49  <thefiler> frosch123: so basically having to recreate the whole map
13:13:12  <frosch123> roboboy: it should also apply to the newspaper
13:13:30  <roboboy> not in my openttd game
13:15:29  <roboboy> I am running 1.0.5
13:16:03  <frosch123> hmm, it does not do it in mine either :p
13:18:24  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but then, which transparency options should be available in the newspaper as well?
13:18:32  <frosch123> the same?
13:18:42  <Alberth> none?
13:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> something inbetween?
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13:20:54  <b_jonas> there's a colored newspaper option, you can try that if you want to have the effects
13:21:35  <frosch123> oh, NWidgetViewport::Draw disables all transparencies
13:22:06  <roboboy> do we want consistency with TTDP?
13:22:09  <frosch123> ok, turns out all transparency options are explicitly disabled for the news
13:22:46  * roboboy has a poke in TTDP to see what else works
13:23:09  <frosch123> no idea who complained about transparency in news, but maybe it should preserve sign transparency
13:23:11  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe even force station signs to invisible on the news?
13:25:50  <b_jonas> the newspaper is printed by a company independent of your traffic company, it's no wonder they use different grapihcal conventions to show scenes and labels
13:26:53  <roboboy> in TTDP it obeys my "other" transparency settings
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13:27:28  <roboboy> I put other in quotes since TTDP doesn't include signs in it's transparency options
13:27:52  <roboboy> it puts that option with GUI options
13:30:05  <roboboy> it was me that complained
13:31:31  <frosch123> roboboy: it's Wolf01's fault
13:31:57  <frosch123> @commit 9563
13:32:01  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by peter1138 :: r9563 /trunk (23 files in 4 dirs) (2007-04-05 07:49:04 UTC)
13:32:02  <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Feature: Add more finer control to transparency options, including a new toolbar, accessible from the map menu or Ctrl X. Patch by Wolf01.
13:32:28  <frosch123> previously only buildings ignored the transparency in the news gui
13:32:38  <roboboy> oh ok
13:33:38  <roboboy> hm well in TTDP they are shown in the news as transparent if they are set to transparent
13:34:31  <roboboy> I am only personaly concerned about the station names mainly though
13:35:25  <thefiler> thank you everyone for the help, I seem to have it working in nightly now, when i start a new scn or custom map.
13:35:31  <thefiler> i've got only two more noob questions.
13:35:52  <Alberth> just ask, no need to announce it :)
13:36:43  <thefiler> 1) having a pc with a i7 exterme and 24gb memory run sli wount make a differents on speed when going big and having 4000 trains etc etc
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13:37:38  <Alberth> 4000 trains !!   oh man. yeah, that is going to be slow :)
13:37:52  <thefiler> 2) i wount be able to use that newgrf in normal openttd correct?
13:38:10  <Alberth> s/wount/won't/
13:38:23  <thefiler> Alberth: combination of trains, planes, trucks etc etc
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13:38:47  <Alberth> as I said before, there is a previous version that should run in normal openttd (ie 1.0.x)
13:39:22  <Alberth> thefiler: it is very well possible that you run into CPU limits, as OpenTTD is not multi-core
13:39:30  <peter1138> 24GB ram? gosh
13:39:32  <b_jonas> I think openttd can handle 4000 trucks even on an ordinary high-end PC with 1 GB memory and a fast cpu
13:39:34  * Rubidium waits for it...
13:39:44  <b_jonas> but 4000 trains might be harder
13:39:51  <b_jonas> still, I think 4000 isn't impossibly high
13:39:55  <SmatZ> depends how long those trains are
13:39:55  <Alberth> what the hack do you do with 24GB ?
13:39:56  <avdg> define fast cpu
13:39:58  <peter1138> 4000 boats? :D
13:40:09  <peter1138> a vm per core?
13:40:23  <peter1138> aww, no r21476 servers ;(
13:40:41  <peter1138> i can't remember how to play
13:40:44  <SmatZ> there's a limit of 65000 vehicles in total (incliding wagons)
13:40:46  <peter1138> do i have to make a pickaxe first?
13:41:00  <b_jonas> avdg: if you really want that, let's say an Intel Core2 1.86 GHz with 2M cache
13:41:06  <SmatZ> [14:40:44] <SmatZ> there's a limit of 65000 vehicles in total (incliding wagons) <== actually, no
13:41:09  <Rubidium> SmatZ: you're lagging
13:41:15  <SmatZ> Rubidium: indeed :)
13:41:20  <SmatZ> @base 16 10 0xFF000
13:41:20  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 1044480
13:41:25  <SmatZ> ok, 1 mil :)
13:41:30  <avdg> hmm 1.86
13:41:37  <avdg> thats kinda nuts
13:42:05  <avdg> 2.53 and lagging at arround < 3k trains
13:43:29  <b_jonas> well, I haven't actually tried 4000 vehicles
13:43:34  <b_jonas> it might be lagging
13:43:50  <b_jonas> but it uses very few cpu time with like 600 vehicles and a not too large map
13:43:52  <Rubidium> oh, come on... ever tried 5000 RVs in a single depot on some old OpenTTD?
13:43:54  <b_jonas> mostly trucks
13:43:56  <Rubidium> now *that* is slow
13:44:09  <Rubidium> when they try to exit the depot
13:44:17  <peter1138> heh, yeah
13:44:28  <avdg> lol
13:44:44  <b_jonas> Rubidium: there's a sell all button
13:45:06  <b_jonas> then build 10 depots and buy one tenth of them in each depots
13:45:57  <Rubidium> b_jonas: you have no clue what I'm referring to, have you?
13:46:57  <roboboy> is there a hotkey for clone vehicle?
13:49:45  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> do i have to make a pickaxe first? <-- actually you need a workbench to make a pickaxe
13:50:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so what you really need to do is cut a tree with your bare hands. yay realism :p
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13:58:41  * roboboy needs to go to bed soon
14:14:40  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21477 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix [FS#4300]: tooltips were removed when their related window got closed
14:15:55  <avdg> :)
14:18:46  <oliver_> ch
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14:46:54  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21478 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_gui.cpp): -Change [FS#4297]: improve some order related tooltips. Based on patch by Krille
14:51:38  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: frosch * r21479 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix (r9563): Keep transparency for textual stuff in newspaper.
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14:55:54  <thefiler> is there any shortcuts to maxing all industries production without having to go one for one and do it?
14:56:36  <Rubidium> compiler or hex editor on the savegame
14:56:51  <thefiler> sounds complicated
14:58:04  <avdg> use cheats
14:58:27  <Rubidium> avdg: cheats are a per-industry thing
14:58:36  <avdg> true
14:58:40  <Rubidium> he needs to modify OpenTTD (or his savegame)
15:00:03  <thefiler> Rubidium	: would you mind giving me an example to how I would do it?
15:03:05  <Rubidium> rig the industry production determination code so it only goes up, and goes up every time. Then make sure that method is called a few times upon industry construction
15:03:20  <Rubidium> the rest I leave to you
15:03:35  <Alberth> :)
15:04:38  <thefiler> ok...
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15:04:51  <thefiler> cant one build in nigthly in pause mode?
15:05:21  <Alberth> if your advanced settings allow it, yes
15:05:58  <Alberth> it is a quite recent change though
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15:09:37  <thefiler> thank you
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15:13:38  <Ammler> couldn't a newgrf also do this job?
15:14:56  <Alberth> do newgrfs know the game is paused?    afaik they don't
15:17:01  <frosch123> Ammler: no, you would first have to remove all industries from the game
15:17:57  <thefiler> is there no way to modify newgrf in nightly, per scn or game
15:18:10  <Lakie> frosch123: I think it might be possiblew to simpify your diff slightly.
15:18:30  <frosch123> the ttdp diff? no idea :)
15:18:52  <SmatZ> thefiler: there is, but it's hidden
15:18:55  <Lakie> Shouldn't just retreiving the value for 1C work?
15:19:08  <frosch123> i need to pass the accumulator to the other function, but eax is already used there
15:19:16  <Lakie> Or does that not get processed correctly in 'advanced action2s'
15:20:20  <frosch123> 1c is set at the end of the whole varact2, not inbetween
15:21:08  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21480 /trunk/src/window.cpp:
15:21:08  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Change [FS#4292]: make it possible to start actions that require selecting
15:21:08  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: stuff (landscaping, vehicle cloning, etc) in the viewport while paused. As
15:21:08  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: side-effect you'll get an error message explaining the command can't be executed
15:21:08  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: because the game is paused instead of seemingly nothing happening when you
15:21:10  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: click. Addition side effect of this is that you can make use of the measurement
15:21:10  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: tooltip while paused
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15:21:55  <Lakie> Hmm, that's somewhat more troublesome
15:22:03  <polymorphZ> they-ho
15:22:50  <thefiler> SmatZ: how do i unhide it...
15:23:26  <SmatZ> thefiler: are you a newgrf developer?
15:23:50  <Yexo> doesn't the scenario developer setting also enable it?
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15:24:02  <SmatZ> Yexo: true...
15:24:28  <frosch123> Yexo: SmatZ: that does not help for industry grf either
15:24:59  <SmatZ> I am just not sure if telling everyone how to enable it won't break the purpose of that patch, to allow to change newgrfs only for people who know what they are doing
15:24:59  <thefiler> SmatZ: no im a noob with this stuff
15:25:13  <SmatZ> thefiler: so don't change grfs in a running game/scenario
15:25:20  <SmatZ> it will most likely break the game
15:27:26  <peter1138> oh balls
15:27:28  <peter1138> kernel oops :s
15:27:34  <SmatZ> :x
15:27:42  <peter1138> just by unplugging a usb device...
15:27:54  <glx> <frosch123> i need to pass the accumulator to the other function, but eax is already used there <-- push/pop ?
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15:40:12  <Ammler> is it intended that roads are stay but bridges and tunnels disapear with bankrupt company?
15:40:21  <Ammler> -are
15:40:55  <SmatZ> yes
15:41:17  <Ammler> why?
15:41:23  <Lakie> I suppose one could store a byte variable, moving eax into it just after the push, then retrieve it later
15:41:24  <SmatZ> it has always been that way
15:41:45  <Ammler> so it isn't wanted, it just is that way :-)
15:42:03  <Lakie> Did you intend 0x7B to be usable without structure and such, similar to 0x7D+
15:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so "features" have now been promoted to "side-effects"? ;)
15:42:18  <thefiler> i dont understand why two industry are still being build even thou is been disabled by the newgrf
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15:44:46  <thefiler> that why i want to be able to modify or remove newgrf from set menu to see whats causing this problem of mine
15:47:36  <Yexo> adding that newgrf to an existing game won't work properly
15:48:00  <Yexo> that's exactly why you can't modify or remove newgrf in-game
15:49:47  <thefiler> and what about a scn
15:50:00  <thefiler> which has just been saved?
15:50:32  <Yexo> scenario = running game
15:50:37  <Yexo> for ths purpose at least
15:50:43  <frosch123> Lakie: yes, 7b shall work always
15:50:53  <frosch123> there is no reason it should not
15:51:21  <Lakie> Well, the 60+x var would likely be the place it could break.
15:51:22  <frosch123> i.e. it only depends on the parameter variable whether it can be used
15:52:10  <frosch123> hmm? what shall break?
15:54:13  <Lakie> Unsure, reading and trying ti follow it all
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15:58:45  <frosch123> hmm, maybe "	cmp al, 0x7D" needs some care
16:00:36  <frosch123> maybe the stuff i added to getspecparamvar needs to be moved to getvariationalvariable instead
16:00:44  <frosch123> so it can check the 'parameter' for availability
16:01:28  <Lakie> I was thinking about that
16:02:51  <frosch123> <- updated
16:03:24  <Lakie> That looks like a more logical place for it
16:03:26  <frosch123> btw... does it compile? i do not know whether the "uvard" needs to be first
16:03:43  <Lakie> Shouldn't matter as to order unlike C++
16:04:08  <Lakie> Though I think I'd change it to a uvarb.
16:04:20  <frosch123> it is 32bit
16:04:25  <Lakie> Aye
16:04:34  <Lakie> But we only want the lowest 8 bits?
16:04:59  <frosch123> ah, ok, but then you need to keep the push/pop :)
16:05:07  <Lakie> Yup
16:05:10  <frosch123> btw. for ottd we have some cases to use 32bit parameter
16:05:45  <Lakie> Hmmm... then you should take those values from the registers?
16:06:15  <frosch123> yes
16:06:42  <frosch123> store the parameter in the accumulator, then use 7b to get a 60+x variable using a 32bit parameter
16:06:55  <Lakie> Hmmm.
16:07:30  <frosch123> but the 'one' usecase (vehicle var 60) we have so far does not apply to ttdp
16:07:35  <Lakie> TTDPatch would only pass ah.
16:07:57  <Lakie> And I'd prefer not to rewrite all the grf system...
16:08:23  <frosch123> you do not have to :) 32bit paramters are rarely useful
16:08:30  <Lakie> Heh
16:08:46  <Lakie> They should be in registers and not the next bytes anyway
16:09:00  <Lakie> (The latter is already flexible)
16:09:08  <Lakie> former*
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16:10:22  <Yexo> it's flexible, but also more work (especially if you want to do "var A + var B(3)" (where 3 is the parameter for var B). It would require to store the value of var A, store the param, get var B and than add the value of A again
16:12:08  <Lakie> I guess, I will only be supporting 8 bits though, as 32bit would require vast rewrites...
16:13:41  <frosch123> hmm, you could also call the uvard variable "variationalparamter" and store either the accumulator or "cl" in it
16:14:02  <frosch123> then the few (if any) variables could obtain the parameter from the variable instead from cl
16:15:43  <Lakie> Um, problem is thats based on the 60+x being used in a chain?
16:16:22  <frosch123> well, for the first variable only "cl" works
16:20:12  <frosch123> <- something like that
16:20:45  <frosch123> btw, why does asm not have a ? : operator :p
16:20:58  <Lakie> Heh, comes from a time before it?
16:21:45  <Lakie> cmp, jcc, mov, jmp, mov,
16:21:57  <Lakie> Thats the closest I can think of
16:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think such an operator has a lot of uses on asm level ;)
16:25:27  <Lakie> Heh
16:25:42  <Markavian`> sleep, or coffee
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16:28:17  * jonty-comp is home for christmas \o/
16:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ... christmas is another 2 weeks away...
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16:35:29  <fjb> ARM has optional conditions in each command. So it has an inplicite ? : operator.
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16:42:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but TTDPatch is not written in ARM assembler...
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16:44:06  <Lakie> Its written in x86 assembly.
16:44:13  <Lakie> (with some c)
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17:03:19  <avdg> hmm, how do you guys learn asm?
17:03:44  <avdg> (strange that asm is getting more and more readable for me)
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17:09:54  <Alberth> just use it
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17:13:44  <Alberth> unfortunately, I never programmed x86
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17:22:13  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21481 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: make rail conversion make use of TILE_AREA_LOOP as well
17:22:29  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21482 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Codechange: make landscape clearing make use of TILE_AREA_LOOP as well
17:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to reduce the number of "make"s in the commit messages ;)
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17:31:45  <IchGuckLive> hi all ,i got a message city is building a bank ! do i need 2 banks for transporting things ?
17:34:34  <IchGuckLive> here -> it only eyplains the founding
17:34:53  <Alberth> if 'things' is valuables, then quite likely yes, unless you have diamond mines, in which case a bank will accept diamonds from the mine
17:35:42  <Alberth> did you notice the clickable cargoes ?
17:35:51  <IchGuckLive> ok so i got to wait for the next bank to be build by a city
17:36:02  <Alberth> or fund your own bank
17:36:21  <IchGuckLive> clickable cargoes
17:36:23  <frosch123> in temperate you need a population of 1200 for a bank or so
17:36:37  <Alberth> hmm, not "your own", but "another"
17:36:38  <Rubidium> :D
17:36:40  <planetmaker> last time I transported valuables the helicopter doing the transport made an annual loss of 1 million ;-)
17:36:52  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21483 /trunk/src/station.cpp:
17:36:52  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Codechange: make StationRect::ScanForStationTiles make use of TILE_AREA_LOOP.
17:36:52  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: Making use of make makes me making use of my brain to determine whether I make
17:36:52  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: use of tautology, or make use of pleonasm, or make use of both, or even make use
17:36:52  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: of neither
17:37:07  <Alberth> it didn't get off the ground ;)
17:37:30  <Spoons> ... commit message.
17:37:41  *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
17:37:48  <planetmaker> Alberth: it did. It even was at air speed 1/1
17:37:53  <planetmaker> and a reasonable distance
17:38:03  <supermop> i think that was a pun, planetmaker
17:38:20  <Alberth> (18:37:15) IchGuckLive: clickable cargoes   <-- in the "accepts" box
17:38:20  <planetmaker> But... annual running costs of the helicopter were at like 1.500.000 per year or so ;-)
17:38:27  <planetmaker> It also costs 45.000.000 to buy
17:38:46  <Alberth> a bit inflation :)
17:38:55  <planetmaker> (we allow air vehicles on our stable server, but make them a pure luxury item. No inflation applied)
17:39:07  <planetmaker> just base cost mods a bit extreme
17:39:35  <Alberth> just for fun thus :)
17:39:47  <planetmaker> yep :-) I bought it just because ;-)
17:39:58  <IchGuckLive> Thanks i will go on with my first real game after 3years im now on 800T income  a year  no cheeds in place 4subsedies running
17:40:32  <IchGuckLive> i play random 55555555 1jan2000
17:40:54  <Alberth> yeah, that looks like a random number :)
17:41:03  <IchGuckLive> most used key F1
17:41:23  <IchGuckLive> no i gif it the random my own
17:41:40  <IchGuckLive> the all 5 lookt the best map
17:41:49  <Alberth> why do you pause so often?
17:42:01  <IchGuckLive> save time
17:42:10  <Alberth> if you let it run, you still have 24 real-world hours game time
17:42:14  <IchGuckLive> to open the menues
17:42:32  <planetmaker> what do you gain by pausing?
17:42:41  <planetmaker> You can play up to the year 5000000
17:42:41  <IchGuckLive> to place trhe orders you do not ned run
17:43:02  <Alberth> it saves 2 game days each time :)
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17:43:48  <Alberth> @calc (5000000 - 1950) * 13.5 / 60 / 24 / 365
17:43:48  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 128.374571918
17:44:01  <Alberth> oh a mere 128 years :)
17:44:07  <IchGuckLive> the overview is more good to get things done in pause mode
17:44:56  <frosch123> maybe all the daylength stuff can be solved when the game speed in controled by the bank balance :p
17:45:02  <IchGuckLive> ok i will go on  thanks for the info on Bank's
17:45:07  <frosch123> the more money you get the slower everything runs
17:45:47  <Alberth> have fun IchGuckLive
17:45:54  <IchGuckLive> Bye till i got my next question
17:46:10  <planetmaker> frosch123: then I'd play in Yen or lira.
17:46:15  *** IchGuckLive [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]]
17:46:22  <planetmaker> ;-)
17:46:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: reminds me of my first TT game... i didn't get beyond 1940 [10 years game time], because everything got so extremely slow :p
17:46:57  <frosch123> planetmaker: i only care about real values :p
17:47:13  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
17:48:22  <avdg> <- nice fountain
17:49:35  <ABCRic> Indeed
17:52:59  <Eddi|zuHause> ERROR: unable to download video (format may not be available)
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17:54:49  <Rubidium> avdg: yeah, it's cool. But it looks even better IRL :)
17:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... update of youtube-dl seems to work ;)
17:55:12  <avdg> and it does already look crazy :p
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17:59:52  <Rubidium> avdg: I like as well, though it's way simpler it's quite useful :)
18:00:17  <Rubidium> I actually watched that clock for a few minutes just because it was something I didn't see before
18:00:47  <avdg> lol
18:01:08  <Rubidium> it's, like the CanalCity waterfall also in Fukuoka
18:01:36  <Rubidium> oh, and the steak I had in CanalCity was pretty nice, though a tad too big for my appetite that day
18:01:49  <planetmaker> interesting clock :-)
18:04:50  <andythenorth> how do I get into this coop game with HEQS?
18:05:47  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21484 /trunk/src/terraform_gui.cpp: -Codechange: use TILE_AREA_LOOP in CommonRaiseLowerBigLand
18:07:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: you join #openttdcoop channel and bother their bot for the password
18:08:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth: stable or public server?
18:09:52  <planetmaker> hm, stable server
18:10:05  <planetmaker> andythenorth: just compile OpenTTD 1.0.5 and then join the server
18:10:28  <planetmaker> It runs HEQS 0.9.5 - and that's what you're after, I guess. The other runs a toyland2mars conversion
18:11:43  <planetmaker> svn co svn:// && ./configure && make run
18:16:15  <andythenorth> svn: Can't connect to host '': No route to host
18:16:31  <andythenorth> this is why I never play mp :)
18:16:37  <planetmaker> eh?
18:16:41  <andythenorth> I can never get the right build
18:17:19  <planetmaker> the host is up and running. Any firewall which blocks something?
18:17:47  <Alberth> andythenorth:   <-- also has the sources of 1.0.5
18:18:27  <planetmaker> wasn't there something with an improper newgrf version there?
18:18:43  <Yexo> that's only a problem for nightly versions
18:19:04  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21485 /trunk/src/object_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: use CircularTileSearch to find whether there's a transmitter nearby
18:19:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth: does checkout via http work?
18:19:23  <planetmaker> svn co
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18:20:06  <andythenorth> co over http works
18:23:52  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21486 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: use TILE_AREA_LOOP for station expansion checks as well
18:24:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth: (Version 8.0) <-- I guess you'll need the grfpack
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18:32:54  <andythenorth> any opinions?  Or shall I just get on with it to my own taste?
18:32:57  <Lakie> Rubidium: I've noticed a small inconsistancy
18:33:10  <andythenorth> ^^ colours, not boat size
18:33:25  <Lakie> With no objects with property 17 defined the preview width is smaller than with any objects with property 17 defined
18:33:49  <Lakie> (I mean than with any grf with ...)
18:34:19  <planetmaker> improved is nicer, yes
18:34:41  <planetmaker> might alternatively be grey-ish
18:35:23  <planetmaker> does building 1.0.5 work?
18:35:41  <andythenorth> planetmaker: could be 2cc, but might be.....garish
18:36:02  <andythenorth> I could adjust the colours of the hatches also
18:36:05  <planetmaker> or randome re-colour ;-)
18:36:08  <planetmaker> -e
18:36:29  <planetmaker> there's a re-colouring for brown available, used by houses and bridges. You could use that ;-)
18:36:35  <Rubidium> Lakie: property 17 doesn't matter. There's nothing that says it has 2 or 4 that does matter
18:36:53  <Rubidium> and in that case it isn't needed to show such a big window
18:37:23  <Lakie> Ok
18:38:04  <andythenorth> planetmaker: recoloring is out due to use of 2CC :P
18:38:30  <planetmaker> he, ok :-)
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18:45:50  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21487 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:50  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:50  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: english_US - 5 changes by Rubidium
18:45:50  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:45:50  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
18:45:51  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
18:45:51  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: hungarian - 10 changes by IPG
18:45:56  <LadyHawk> hello again
18:46:14  <LadyHawk> i have 2 questions about ottd 1.0.5
18:46:20  <LadyHawk> (no nightlies)
18:46:46  <LadyHawk> first one is... sometimes when news is being delayed, and one of the industries has an imminent closure.. is there a way to get to the location if the industry in question has already disappeared?
18:47:20  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21488 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_tilelist.cpp: -Codechange: make use of TILE_AREA_LOOP in the tile list AI API
18:47:27  <Yexo> if clicking on the news message doesn't work: probably not
18:47:56  <LadyHawk> no it doesn't unfortunately.. would that be something that could be possible in future?
18:48:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a misfeature: "paper" news get delayed while ticker is running
18:48:20  <LadyHawk> hold on
18:48:43  <LadyHawk> ah, it only works when you click on the text of the news paper
18:48:53  <LadyHawk> cool that one's answered then XD
18:48:59  <LadyHawk> the other question would be..
18:49:36  <LadyHawk> when using the settings breakdowns none, and disable servicing when breakdowns none enabled, is there a way to prevent trains going for servicing by themselves when you set their locomotive on the auto-replace list?
18:50:17  <LadyHawk> a few days ago i was here about a possible bug when sending 1 group for servicing, but i've found out it's because they decide to go themselves without being told
18:50:27  <LadyHawk> because of the auto replace list
18:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they do that.
18:50:42  <LadyHawk> can i turn that off somewhere?
18:50:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a setting for that
18:51:03  <LadyHawk> it's very annoying they decide to go wherever they please for servicing, rather than follow the depot on their own route
18:51:33  <LadyHawk> i'd like to turn it off so i can send 1 group at a time, and not all at once
18:51:41  <peter1138> hmm
18:51:45  <peter1138> this might be a silly question
18:51:52  <peter1138> but did transport empire ever get off the ground?
18:52:05  <SpComb> not that I know of
18:52:50  <frosch123> i think it got further than p1sim
18:54:47  <LadyHawk> 2 groups of ~70 trains on different tracks, come together on a single station, 1 group depots at station, the other has its own forced 'depot block'. auto replace their loco, group 2 should go to depot on their own route, rather than have all 140 trains trying to depot at the station because they decide to go for servicing on their own
18:55:23  <LadyHawk> is this some feature i'd be able to put on the suggestion boards, to disable their own will for servicing when you set their loco on auto-replace?
18:55:39  <SpComb> I think as a commercial release it would be a failure
18:55:41  <planetmaker> add explicit depot orders
18:55:47  <SpComb> oh wait
18:55:48  <SpComb> TE?
18:55:52  <SpComb> I thought TG
18:56:13  <LadyHawk> i can't do that, depot block is a path signal to whichever of 4 depots on the route is available.. i set a direct depot order, and i lose the ability to let trains go to the available one
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18:56:28  <LadyHawk> 1 depot on the route is way too slow for all 70 trains to get past
18:56:52  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: use conditional order and a waypoint
18:57:44  <LadyHawk> could you give me a link to read up on conditional orders like that?
18:58:15  <LadyHawk> the settings i have work fine right now except for the fact that they go for servicing when it's disabled in settings... purely due to the auto-replace list
18:58:40  <LadyHawk> but if a conditional order gives the same effect i'll try to use that as a workaround
18:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: key point here is, after this waypoint you can safely use a "go to random depot" order
18:59:47  <Alberth> LadyHawk: just serach the wiki using 'conditional order'
19:00:03  <LadyHawk> and using something like this, will stop trains from going for servicing when i stick their loco on the auto-replace list?
19:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: use the "exclude this group from autoreplace" button in the vehicle list
19:00:52  <LadyHawk> auto-replace makes them go to the first depot in sight on their own, it's why i'm wondering right now whether this order-alternative is going to make any difference
19:01:04  <LadyHawk> sec let me find that button :o
19:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: when a train has a depot order, it won't go to any depots not covered by this order
19:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause> but it still goes to depot if it gets to that order.
19:02:08  <LadyHawk> 'click to protect this group from global autoreplace' << this button you mentioned?
19:02:15  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: yes.
19:02:41  <LadyHawk> great stuff, that'd sort out my issue
19:02:50  <LadyHawk> the tool tip help wasn't very informative ;)
19:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: you're welcome to make suggestions how to improve it ;)
19:04:05  <LadyHawk> i would first need to know exactly what it does... whether it just ignores those trains alltogether and never replaces them, or it replaces them when they happen to get into a depot
19:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: it never replaces them
19:04:29  <Yexo> LadyHawk: about the other part of your problem: just enable autoreplace only for a single group (assuming you've already grouped your trains)
19:04:33  <LadyHawk> that's not what i look for then
19:04:43  <LadyHawk> i'll look into this order thing
19:04:57  <LadyHawk> conditional depot orders
19:05:38  <LadyHawk> i want the auto-replace, just not the 'i'm going for servicing whether i'm specifically told to NOT service at all'
19:05:53  * LadyHawk digs wiki
19:06:07  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: to prevent trains from ever going to depot, use something like this: "1: goto A, 2: goto B, 3: unconditional jump to 1, 4: goto depot"
19:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: the order 4 will never be active, unless you explitcitly set it
19:07:47  <LadyHawk> i'd need something like 'if 1 free -> goto 1, elseif 2 free -> goto 2, elseif 3 free -> goto 3, elseif 4 free -> goto 4, else repeat from condition 1
19:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: to allow trains to go to depot when autoreplace is set, but make it a specific depot only, use something like: "1: goto A, 2: goto B, 3: go to waypoint "before-depot-switch", 4: if not needs servicing - jump to 1, 5: go to waypoint "after-depot-switch", 6: go to depot"
19:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: there is no "if free" order
19:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: you need to allow the pathfinder to automatically figure out which depot is free
19:09:20  <LadyHawk>
19:09:27  <LadyHawk> it's the setup i use currently, without any order
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19:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: yes, in the above example, put the "before-waypoint-switch" on the mainline, and the "after-depot-switch" waypoint before the path signal in the picture. then use a "goto random depot" order. it should work exactly like before
19:11:50  <LadyHawk> thanks a lot for this explenation, i'm going to try that right now :D
19:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> to make it safe you should have "waypoint - empty tile - path signal"
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19:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> where "empty tile" might be a signal as well
19:13:16  <LadyHawk> and once that's done i'll be testing to see if this auto-replace list still makes them go into the first depot in sight or whether they stick to their order
19:13:19  <LadyHawk> ok will do :)
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19:17:38  <LadyHawk> i see the goto nearest depot order, not to random one.. i'll play about a bit with it
19:19:15  <LadyHawk> seems to work brilliantly
19:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: "nearest" is "random", in the sense that the pathfinder penalties differ depending on where the trains have reserved tracks ;)
19:21:59  <LadyHawk> as for the tooltip help on that 'protect group from global autoreplace'... maybe something more informative would be 'exclude group from global auto-replace'
19:22:17  <LadyHawk> 'protect' could mean a lot of things is this instance :)
19:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree
19:23:56  <LadyHawk> the pathfinder seems to be quite smart, it's hard to figure out everything it takes into account just by watching trains' behaviour on junctions
19:24:37  <LadyHawk> lol
19:25:09  <peter1138> hmm, weird
19:25:15  <andythenorth> what is this 'protect group' feature? :o
19:25:19  <peter1138> watching this program on quest "american hot rod" or something
19:25:26  <peter1138> and they pronounce "chassis" with a hard c...
19:26:04  <planetmaker> they also say aluminum without two I
19:26:16  <peter1138> hmm, not hard c, but not the usual way
19:27:00  <LadyHawk> 'protect group' excludes a group of trains from the auto-replace list, they wont be replaced automagicly.. i didn't know until just now XD
19:28:01  * andythenorth learns something
19:28:17  <andythenorth> what is the crazy 'upgrade' button for in depots?  I click it often, but to no avail....
19:28:32  <LadyHawk> going to test the stubbornity of auto-replace against a depot order to see if they stop going to the first depot in sight now
19:31:05  <LadyHawk> and they all drove past the first depot they saw, and went to their ordered one.. nice!
19:31:17  <LadyHawk> now i can go implement this and change orders of about 70 trains lol
19:31:40  <planetmaker> if you need to update every train individually you do something wrong ;-)
19:31:40  <LadyHawk> which button is that andythenorth
19:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but please tell me you heard about "shared orders" before ;)
19:31:53  <LadyHawk> yellow arrow one?
19:31:57  <andythenorth> depot view, bottom right, yellow arrow
19:31:58  <planetmaker> or you just don't know how to use shared orders ;-)
19:31:59  <LadyHawk> shared orders? lol
19:32:08  <andythenorth> I've been looking at it for four years wondering what it does :P
19:32:21  <andythenorth> I'm sure the wiki knows
19:32:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: uae the button like this: pause game, set autoreplace rule, press button, remove autoreplace rule, unpause game.
19:32:35  <LadyHawk> those trains go to different loading stations, come together at an unload.. just because they're on 1 side of the map that got them placed in 1 group... doesn't mean i can share their orders, does it?
19:32:41  <planetmaker> well. We made it more visible recently, with a separate selection in the orders menu ;-)
19:32:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ??
19:32:54  <planetmaker> and a very verbose tooltip
19:33:08  <andythenorth> what it replaces vehicles during pause? :O
19:33:11  <andythenorth> without going to depot?
19:33:18  <planetmaker> no
19:33:19  <andythenorth> why don't I always use that :P
19:33:25  <Alberth> they are in the depot already :p
19:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it will only affect the vehicles in the depot at that time
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19:34:26  * LadyHawk doesn't find shared orders thing anywhere
19:34:34  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i think i'm the only person who knows how to use that button :p
19:34:59  <LadyHawk> i know it exists, just dont know how to use it without any tooltips or something in game that tells me about it
19:35:06  <LadyHawk> XD
19:35:20  <andythenorth> does the server list have any filter / search?
19:35:47  <LadyHawk> the tooltip on that yellow arrow button tells me it'll auto replace anything inside the depot based on the auto-replace list settings
19:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there used to be a patch for that.
19:35:55  <Eddi|zuHause> don't remember if it was ever included
19:39:04  <LadyHawk> shared orders hold ctrl while pressing clone vehicle... awww, missing that silly control key got me so much work.. to do
19:40:13  <avdg> ctrl is the key to the new world of shortcuts :)
19:40:52  <avdg>
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19:52:05  <LadyHawk> interesting list, those hidden features.. i knew some but i'm gonna try one of those out ;o
19:52:35  <LadyHawk> tricky tricky nice lol
19:52:42  <LadyHawk> station joined with another while apart from it
19:59:05  <ABCRic> I wish I knew that trick when I first tried to make a airport-dock station...
20:01:13  <LadyHawk> this setup with the waypoint before the path signal doesn't entirely work right... the train gets the depot order when it hits the waypoint, and when it hits the path signal a trai ncould be coming out of said depot, so it waits until its path is clear rather than going to an available one
20:03:00  <LadyHawk> moved the waypoint adjacent to the path signal so that 1 tile safe zone thing is gone
20:05:42  <LadyHawk> works better now
20:11:03  <LadyHawk> but not good enough
20:11:59  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21489 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: replace the last instances of TILE_LOOP with TILE_AREA_LOOP
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20:12:52  <LadyHawk> switched it around now, the path signal first, then the waypoint
20:13:36  <Eddi|zuHause> may be dangerous
20:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> because then it may reserve a completely random path behind the waypoint, since the depot order is not active at that time yet
20:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there is some sort of lookahead, but i don't know how good that is
20:14:52  <LadyHawk> i'm watching it but it seems to not interfear with their reserved path
20:15:04  <LadyHawk> it gives them the depot on their reserved path
20:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> basically: once the path is reserved, the next order can't change it again
20:15:12  <LadyHawk> haven't seen a train with the depot order stuck yet either
20:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so you may have bad effects if there is also a path without any depot
20:15:49  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe the lookahead is good enough to figure that out.
20:16:30  <LadyHawk> there isn't a path without depot, but i'm assuming trains go weird if their depot order's 'stuck' (wrong depot in order from reserved path depot)
20:16:38  <LadyHawk> lookahead has saved me so many train crashes
20:16:46  <LadyHawk> trains refuse to move
20:17:01  <LadyHawk> they seem to want to reserve a path or they wont budge
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20:17:15  <LadyHawk> had it once where it didn't reserve a path to safety but i cant remember the conditions
20:18:23  <LadyHawk> it happened that 5 trains turned around in a block with 14+ trains after i demolished the 1 way tracks on the other side of the station
20:18:33  <LadyHawk> not a single crash lol
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20:19:09  <LadyHawk> it was a path signal block so maybe that's what saved it, they all had a reserved path at that time
20:21:38  <LadyHawk> i'll leave the block be with the waypoint behind path signal, and let you know if something crashes lol
20:22:41  <LadyHawk> 97 trains on that block right now so surely it'd happen sooner rather than later
20:24:35  <LadyHawk> i just found this 'timetable' thing in the orders menu, but how do i start it?
20:24:50  <LadyHawk> it says it isn't timetabled yet and that the train 'runs on time' though
20:27:42  <ABCRic>
20:30:11  <supermop> how serious are people about this new train gui
20:30:13  <supermop> ?
20:30:15  <LadyHawk> thanks
20:39:02  <Lakie> I don't think the views as mb shows them will work as intended, if thats what you mean supermop
20:39:43  <Lakie> Maybe a drop down (with the equivlent of previewdd) option which shows the style and name on the 'buttob'?
20:40:15  <planetmaker> supermop: no one knows :-)
20:40:34  <planetmaker> it all depends whether someone actually does the work
20:40:42  <supermop> hmm
20:40:43  <Lakie> Aye
20:40:55  <supermop> what would it be used for?
20:41:30  <Lakie> Trying to move such things out of refitting, currently known as "livery refits".
20:42:03  <supermop> maaking refits purely for cargo changes?
20:42:12  <Lakie> Primarily
20:42:21  <planetmaker> that seems to be the idea
20:42:25  <Lakie> And things like regearing most likely
20:43:21  <planetmaker> well. Regearing would in that sense be a valid refit
20:43:33  <planetmaker> otherwise there's no difference.
20:43:57  <planetmaker> I guess the topic is complicated ;-)
20:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with regearing as refit is that it takes away a cargo slot.
20:44:21  <Lakie> Well, it could add some minor complexities to code I guess.
20:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> means it gets incompatible with industry grfs, where the common user can't see a reason why.
20:44:44  <supermop> neat idea, but doesn't seem like a big priority from my perspective
20:44:54  <supermop> ah
20:45:03  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it screws up "full load all" orders.
20:45:06  <planetmaker> well. In a layman's understanding, regearing is more of a refit than changing transport capacity from coal to iron ore
20:45:19  <supermop> yeah
20:45:30  <planetmaker> technically it's currently the same
20:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but it needs to be made in a way that doesn't use a cargo.
20:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> which it currently can't. and mb's views probably won't change that.
20:46:22  <supermop> refitting now conceptually covers new paint, physically changing a consist and cleaning out a hopper
20:46:42  <planetmaker> refitting covers any change you can make to a vehicle
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20:50:40  * Lakie weeps, generating of lots of layouts is painful...
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20:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in that case, there should be "cargo refits", "livery refits" and "gear refits" all as subtypes of general "vehicle refit"
20:58:47  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21490 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp map_func.h tilearea_type.h): -Codechange: abstract/encapsulate the map area iterating a bit
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21:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: where for a long distance car, "cargo refits" could be "{Passengers, Tourists}" and "gear refit" could be "{AÃŒm, BÃŒm, Rheingold, Mitropa}"
21:01:03  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you mean like terkhen two-column refit-.window?
21:01:11  <frosch123> + 's
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21:01:33  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: more talking about internal handling, but GUI could be something like that, yes.
21:02:00  <frosch123> i.e. you can already distingush those cases: livery refits are subcargos, regearing are cargos with the "special" cargo class, and normal refits are the rest
21:02:05  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: and what would the game play difference be? Just that "gear refits" have no associated cargo?
21:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: mainly the point is to have "gear refit" also for vehicles which have 0 capacity
21:02:22  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that is already possible, though ottd only
21:02:43  <planetmaker> he :-)
21:02:45  <frosch123> unfortnuatelly hardly knows, so maybe the documentation should be enhanced
21:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but does that still need a cargo slot?
21:03:25  <planetmaker> one cargo slot 'regearing' is not troublesome
21:03:26  <frosch123> yes
21:03:56  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it is, when an ECS mine starts producing "regearing" without any parameters.
21:04:05  <planetmaker> that's an ECS bug then
21:04:23  <planetmaker> but why should it start producing 'regearing'?
21:04:38  <planetmaker> are mines in ECS producing a random cargo?
21:05:04  <planetmaker> or how does it work there?
21:05:08  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't know. but that's what happened before i specifically turned off regearing in NARS
21:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it was not a random cargo
21:05:32  <planetmaker> sounds strange. But regearing is a well-defined cargo-slot
21:05:43  <planetmaker> it's even described in the specs
21:06:14  <planetmaker> can you tell me which ECS I need to reproduce that?
21:06:28  <planetmaker> or give me that savegame?
21:07:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... was some cargodist savegame...
21:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i used the USA map with ECS and US houses, and added NARS to that.
21:08:13  <planetmaker> well. you could export the newgrf list via preset ;-)
21:08:57  <planetmaker> well. unfortunately ECS != ECS. There's so many configuration options... it's anything but hard to loose track
21:09:05  <planetmaker> just adding and playing fails too often with it
21:09:10  <planetmaker> (IMHO)
21:09:32  <V453000> ECS is pointless imo
21:09:56  <planetmaker> No, I don't think so. But I never can remember parameters. Nor order of the vectors
21:10:16  <planetmaker> And getting that right is not obvious. Unless I did for that information
21:11:59  <planetmaker> Hm... and the date rather than a single version number doesn't help to find the newest one :-(
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21:12:47  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: nars or nars2?
21:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: USA scenario version 3 from here
21:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and NARS 2.03
21:13:05  <Eddi|zuHause> check the "Kalksteinbruch"
21:13:06  <planetmaker> ah, ty
21:13:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i only have "compatible" ECS Houses, but that shouldn't make a difference
21:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause> NARS 1 didn't have regearing, i think.
21:15:15  <planetmaker> omg. omg. I downloaded version4 of that scenario. All ECS vectors were removed...
21:15:50  <planetmaker> hm, in the non-ECS version. Why ever he numbered them
21:17:17  <Ammler> ECS needs the order of the GRFID, iirc
21:17:23  <Ammler> and parameter just set 15
21:17:37  <Ammler> as it is a bitswitch, it shouldn't matter
21:17:45  <Ammler> some have 3, some 4
21:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: but sometimes it's the first parameter, and sometimes the fourth
21:22:12  <Ammler> hmm
21:22:37  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you should know better than to add newgrf during a running game.
21:23:59  <planetmaker> if you generate the game with all newgrf present at start, the lime quarry doesn't produce regearing.
21:24:07  <planetmaker> but it doesn't produce anything it seems
21:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know ECS that well to figure that out...
21:26:58  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but my point is: there is no sensible explanation to a common user why adding a vehicle set should change industry behaviour
21:27:24  <planetmaker> the sensible explanation is: the grf author wanted it.
21:27:32  <planetmaker> grf authors can basically do anything
21:27:57  <planetmaker> sure enough, I don't see why in this case either.
21:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but the grf author did so because he had no choice
21:28:23  <planetmaker> because he used all 32 cargo slots?
21:28:29  <planetmaker> that's a choice being made.
21:28:42  <planetmaker> so there was one
21:28:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean the vehicle set author had no choice but to include a "senseless" cargo
21:30:13  <planetmaker> actually. When you add NARS on top of ECS... then it also works with NARS
21:31:27  <planetmaker> but ok, the engines then transport one ton of lime stone
21:33:07  <planetmaker> ok, but the principle argument of yours is "we need a separate refit property in order to not use a cargo".
21:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
21:34:34  <planetmaker> But practically there's not really a difference to saying "one cargo is special and reserved for regearing and must not be assigned elsewhere"
21:35:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but that apparently breaks older industry sets.
21:36:54  <planetmaker> regearing is also not new
21:37:25  <planetmaker> I've seen that since I joined this community...
21:38:44  <andythenorth> it speaks to persistent storage for vehicles
21:39:00  <andythenorth> cargo is being used as a proxy for that
21:39:09  <planetmaker> there's no persistant storage for them. Or you mean they should get?
21:39:10  <andythenorth> whether storage is wise is another question
21:39:22  <planetmaker> aye
21:39:22  <andythenorth> abusing cargo == storage
21:39:45  * andythenorth is actually playing the game
21:39:50  <andythenorth> multiplayer is....skippy
21:39:59  <planetmaker> hm... persistant storage. Might just do the trick. Wise? No idea
21:40:21  <planetmaker> But it might be more flexible than just adding another property
21:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> what's dangerous is people accessing storage from other vehicles [like front engine], but not checking whether they are from the same newgrf
21:40:47  <andythenorth> refit is effectively doing the same, but in a tortuous way
21:41:03  <planetmaker> why is that dangerous?
21:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause> also, with "general purpose" storage, you can't link it to the refit gui entries
21:41:26  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "may contain garbage"?
21:41:32  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but you can refit already with 0t capacity.
21:41:48  <planetmaker> Yes, from another can contain garbage. But that's a newgrf bug.
21:43:20  <planetmaker> I can easily test for the grfID of the engine
21:43:37  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a specialized "gear refit" property [with 256 values], you can design the refit gui in a way that it shows selection texts for different values, and also handle (e.g. date-dependent, or cargo-dependent) availability there
21:43:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't do that with a general-purpose storage property
21:44:10  <Eddi|zuHause> because it may be used for completely different stuff
21:44:18  <planetmaker> well. But I can handle that with sub-cargos already
21:44:42  <planetmaker> exactly that
21:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> we are going in circles.
21:46:15  <planetmaker> well. the issue with introducing yet another way for refits among cargos and sub-cargos is that things then certainly don't get easier.
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21:47:44  <planetmaker> using this 'views' approach could have the advantage that actually different sprites could be offered in a selection menu
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22:02:52  <Lakie> frosch123: just tested a trimmed verion of the diff and it appears to work(ish)
22:05:21  <Lakie> Though Oskar wasn't too keen on the idea...
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22:10:47  <frosch123> nice if it works :)
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22:25:31  <Lakie> Well, I dropped the setting, as I think for compatibilty any new vars needs >8 bits should use registers.
22:25:49  <Lakie> And had to change two jumps
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22:32:43  <Lakie> diff looks like this, frosch123,
22:35:33  <frosch123> also fine :)
22:35:45  <Lakie> Although, I think I missed a change
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22:42:28  <Lakie> Updated...
22:43:56  <frosch123> the short/near change? :)
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22:44:05  <Lakie> Yeah
22:44:17  <Lakie> Otherwise you'll get compile errors about jump being out of range
22:44:24  <planetmaker> @ports
22:44:24  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
22:44:40  <Lakie> Does mean it now takes 5 bytes instead of 2 though
22:45:00  <frosch123> can't the assembler do that automatically?
22:45:20  <Lakie> It should be able to, but specifying short would obviously break it
22:49:08  <frosch123> night
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23:18:07  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21491 /trunk/src/tilehighlight_type.h: -Document: the tile highlight data struct
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23:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the programming interface of that fountain earlier is probably not much different than for a needle printer
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