Log for #openttd on 23rd December 2010:
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00:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> I'm thinking about restart developing daylength, this time I would like to separate the concept of tick based  operations and date <<-- one of the problematic parts of the last daylength patch (by SpComb) was that also some periodic updates in the tileloop (i.e. every 256 ticks) need to be scaled by daylength, but they don't depend on DAY_TICKS, so they are not easily identified
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00:05:27  <Wolf01> yeah, I know the problem
00:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> for example ECS had huge problems with that, because suddenly there are more 256-ticks industry callbacks per month than it expects
00:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and the real problem is that every "daylength developer" starts from scratch every time, instead of building on the experience of the previous developer
00:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so 90% of the problems are repeated
00:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and nothing sustainable comes out of it. the developer eventually loses interest and the patch falls apart with 0% of it being trunk-worthy
00:09:47  <Wolf01> every implementation I saw was the same, and all stopped at the same point of mine, the same exact problem
00:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there was also pavel's patch, which followed a different approach.
00:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but it just meant it caused other problems...
00:11:00  <Wolf01> that's why I want to take another approach too
00:12:02  <Wolf01> but I can't figure how to make it work really, every little thing has a different behavior when I think about its contest
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00:12:59  <Wolf01> I didn't write a line of code, I'm only thinking about what needs a change
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00:14:26  <Wolf01> I'm forced to take the same path of my last implementation and improve it, but it is limited
00:14:38  <Wolf01> and I well know it
00:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, the approach should be getting as many of the day vs tick separation into trunk without actually changing any daylength
00:16:03  <Wolf01> at first I need to find a way to "fix" the discrepancy of the running costs declared on the grf (clearly year based and calculated with ticks) and ingame running costs with daylength multiplier
00:16:27  <Wolf01> that is the main approach I would take, indeed
00:17:31  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the things that daylength needs is fractional money
00:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can lower delivery rates, and keep yearly payments the same
00:18:37  <Wolf01> but then you need more time to earn enough money
00:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:19:43  <Wolf01> it's like to slower trains instead making the time flowing slower
00:21:06  <Wolf01> the *main* problem with daylenght is that the multiplier acts like the airplane speed factor
00:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> not really. currently, the daylength actually increases your income, since the cargo is enroute for shorter time
00:21:52  <Wolf01> but increases running costs too
00:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no, running cost per real time stays the same
00:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> income per real time increases
00:22:38  <Wolf01> not in my one, it was scaled with all other things
00:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo that is transported over the same distance at the same speed takes less days
00:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and thus pays more
00:23:08  <Wolf01> the problem I found is that there is some discrepancy about expenses and income
00:23:58  <Wolf01> I say: 1x 10 income and 8 expense -> 32x 500 income and 100 expense
00:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> per game time, the income increases doubly. once because you arrive more often, and once because it takes less time
00:24:57  <Wolf01> yes, it should be that
00:25:38  <Eddi|zuHause> in one year at daylength 4, you earn more than in 4 years at daylength 1
00:25:59  <Wolf01> yes that was the problem
00:26:18  <Wolf01> I wasn't able to figure it out
00:28:08  <Wolf01> I would start by finding all *time related* functions and separate them fron *tick based* functions
00:28:53  <Wolf01> so "day", "month" or "year" must be the same at daylength 1x or 32x or 100x
00:30:48  <Wolf01> but I think this work will end up into one of the previous implementations
00:31:12  <Wolf01> it's too easy to fall in the same traps
00:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it's impossible to decide that, because different people have different opinion
00:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> like here with the running cost. i say, it should be year based, but you say it should be tick based
00:45:15  <Wolf01> I think is better the whole economy stays in ticks and only the representation of the values should be changed, like running costs monthly (yearly/12*multiplier to lower the value a bit) etc, but then we'll end up with a consistent difference from the grf values
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00:49:02  <Wolf01> or we can directly change the economy rules and base them on the time instead of ticks, but I don't know how to handle some parts where it should be both ticks and time
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01:11:36  <Wolf01> 'night (I don't quit, I leave the PC to download some games from steam)
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01:15:34  <SpComb> or you can decide that the economy is imbalanced alreadyh and the whole money thing doesn't really matter for you
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01:21:05  <SpComb> the first thing that bugged me after altering DAY_TICKS was towns growing too fast
01:21:40  <SpComb> but maybe slowing them down that way was the wrong choice, dunno
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07:02:26  <planetmaker> good morning
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07:02:39  <Priski> mourning
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07:04:17  <Priski> I am so glad that I don't have to go outside at all today
07:05:15  <Priski> One person got late at work today because gearbox was frosen in the morning
07:05:31  <Priski> only reverse worked
07:07:00  <Priski> some new cars just can't handle winter :/
07:07:03  <Rubidium> thus, never park your car and put it in reverse :)
07:08:01  <Priski> stupid part was that it was plugged in heater all night and still gears would not work
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07:10:47  <Priski> Rubidium: I always put neutral when I park a car, and use handbrake
07:11:07  <Priski> some people do the opposite, and some reason it pisses me off
07:11:10  <Rubidium> handbrakes freeze as well during winter
07:11:33  <Priski> thats true but never have yet encountered that
07:12:39  <Priski> but once I did start car when gear was on and got a nasty suprise when I lifted foot from clutch
07:14:34  <Priski> I have never in my life drove a car with automatic gearbox so I don't know how they handle winter
07:15:03  <Priski> I keep my prejudices on that issue :)
07:17:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21605 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#4324]: crash due to cargo payments belonging to an non-existing company
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07:47:38  <Mortomes|Work> My carpool buddy was late today because his car lock was frozen and he couldn't get the key in
07:48:32  <Mortomes|Work> It's a good thing the highways here are mostly clear of snow/ice and it was relatively quiet on the road because of christmas holidays
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08:13:27  <Priski> in city it's sometimes annoying to park or even drive because there just is so much snow and so little places where to put it all
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08:29:20  <Alberth> moin
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08:46:12  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:16:33  <Wolf01> moin
09:24:05  <Wolf01> it's raining for 2 days without stop :|
09:24:33  <Wolf01> another sink-x-mas
09:25:15  <Wolf01> seem I can go fishing in the meadows :o
09:26:44  * Alberth sends some snow to Wolf01
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09:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling snow doesn't travel well over the mountains ;)
09:34:50  <Alberth> and it is so nicely cold up there :(
09:37:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but then there comes the Föhn :p
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09:45:33  <LordAro> morning everyone
09:47:27  <Zuu> morning Lord
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09:57:59  <LordAro> silly connection... ;)
09:58:02  <Ammler> the nice december snow is almost gone...
09:58:52  <avdg> same here
10:02:47  <Mortomes|Work> There's still snow here
10:02:57  <Mortomes|Work> And it's supposed to start freezing and possibly snowing again
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10:16:49  <Zuu> I have about 70-80 cm snow on my balcony.
10:17:43  <Ammler> a week ago, we had that too
10:18:22  <Zuu> It melts quite quickly as soon as the temperature turns over zero.
10:18:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's +1°C here, but the snow seems to last a while
10:18:44  <Zuu> Add rain and it melts even faster :-)
10:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it's very foggy
10:26:34  * LordAro has been browsing Rubidium's site :)
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10:31:47  * LordAro has just found some top secret (ish) info regarding release of 1.1 :D
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10:34:43  <LordAro> didn't like chatzilla much...
10:35:36  <Ammler> not that secret, if you found it
10:35:51  <LordAro> note the (ish)
10:38:17  <Rubidium> LordAro: if it were secret-ish, then you wouldn't be able to read it without knowing the exact URL
10:39:07  <LordAro> whatever :), but i know when 1.1-beta1 will be released now ;)
10:39:27  <Rubidium> really?
10:39:37  <Rubidium> there's a 48 hour timeframe for that to happen
10:40:22  <Rubidium> (or actually 49 hour timeframe)
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10:48:31  <greywall> i got a ton load of ships transfering oil to a station where trains pick it up, i noticed that when there is no train directly wiaitng for the oil to load, the oil disappears 10,000 units per 1/2 a second whats up with that?
10:49:20  <Rubidium> there are some limitations on the amount of cargo that can be stored in a station
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10:49:31  <Wolf01> workers stole your oil
10:49:42  <Rubidium> furthermore the lower station ratings are, the faster good "perish"
10:49:45  <greywall> ughmmm its only max reaching 700,000 oil
10:49:55  <greywall> because the rest just goes down the drain
10:49:59  <greywall> its seeping out so fast
10:49:59  <SmatZ> it happens with all cargos
10:50:01  <Rubidium> then it's the low station rating
10:50:03  <SmatZ> it just rots :P
10:50:09  <greywall> the rating for oil is 70%
10:50:21  <greywall> i know how cargo disappears
10:50:24  <greywall> and this isn't it
10:50:31  <greywall> this is 20,000 oils barrels per second
10:50:36  <greywall> that's crazy fast
10:50:40  <Wolf01> You might need at least one train waiting or you'll loose cargo
10:50:57  <greywall> even if the train is waiting i think it still disappears
10:51:01  <Rubidium> then let us stop guessing and provide an actual case
10:51:01  <greywall> very fast
10:51:13  <greywall> i just don't notice it as bad because the train is also loading
10:51:14  <Wolf01> consider that 20,000 oil barrels are like 20tonnes, so not that fast
10:52:02  <greywall> wait sorry
10:52:04  <greywall> its faster
10:52:09  <greywall> i think its 40K barrels
10:53:00  <greywall> 2-3 ships just finished unloading and b ythe time they were done, there was nothing left at the station even though there is no train picking it up because the train left some 20 seconds earlier before the ships started transfering cargo
10:54:15  <greywall> it requires 2 ships unloading simoltaneously in order to keep the rate of losing cargo at 0, meaning no cargo will add or be stolen
10:54:49  <greywall> and it also seems like the faster ships unload the faster cargo disappears
10:54:50  <Wolf01> raise the station's ratings
10:54:58  <greywall> i just saw 500K barrels disappear within 3 seconds
10:54:59  <greywall> i swear
10:55:11  <greywall> station's raitings is 56%
10:55:37  <greywall> it was 70-80+% and it was still doing it
10:55:40  <greywall> that badly!
10:55:52  <greywall> loosing so much cargo ^
10:56:46  <Rubidium> oh for the... provide an actual case we can look at so we can tell you what is going on...
10:57:40  <Alberth> I think there is a sort of time-out limit, and since all your oil arrives at the same time (by ship), it also reaches the limit at the same time
10:57:41  <Wolf01> if tiles start to disappear around the station, you might found the black-hole case
10:57:50  <Wolf01> *might have
10:58:13  <Alberth> nice disaster :)
10:59:08  <Wolf01> I was thinking to area effect disasters, like oil flood, blizzard, rain flooding
10:59:16  <Wolf01> just to stop all activities in the affected area
11:00:38  <Wolf01> oil flood happens around docks and oil wells, will stop ships and drop your ratings
11:00:51  <greywall> well then the oil expiration date is about 1 day
11:01:02  <greywall> because after a ship is finished unloading
11:01:13  <Terkhen> what is the oil rating?
11:01:14  <greywall> it's gone within a second or two after
11:01:17  <greywall> HIGH
11:01:19  <greywall> ffs
11:01:26  <Rubidium> oh... you seem to not get what I'm after, are you?
11:01:27  <Terkhen> hwo high?
11:01:30  <greywall> 50%, 70, 80%
11:01:30  <Terkhen> how*
11:02:30  <Alberth> Wolf01: dev_null42 also seems to have disaster ideas, see FS#4286. I don't see the direction of it though.
11:03:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21606 /trunk/ -Fix (r14636): DOS binary was broken when not stripping
11:04:43  <greywall> is there an info on which server i'm on in the game?
11:04:52  <greywall> info window
11:10:25  <Wolf01> about daylength, I'll try to simulate the problems with a little framework in VB.Net, I'll try to replicate the current functionality and then separate the various functions
11:15:22  <greywall> this is weird
11:15:26  <greywall> on the receiving end
11:15:32  <greywall> i have an oil refinery
11:15:44  <greywall> when building the station it says accepts oil
11:15:57  <greywall> but when i look at the station it just stores it on site
11:16:00  <greywall> and doesn't pay out
11:16:07  <Wolf01> don't use unload
11:16:12  <greywall> i've tried all kinds of options on the unloading
11:16:46  <greywall> if i don't use unload, then it just arrives at the station checks, and heads back without unloading
11:16:56  <Wolf01> use only "go-to station" trains must unload automatically if the stations accepts that cargo
11:17:25  <Wolf01> maybe the refinery stockpile is full
11:18:11  <greywall> 0 goods processed
11:18:54  <Rubidium> really... how long is it going to take before you cough up the savegame so we can actually SEE what is going on instead of having to GUESS?
11:18:58  <greywall> you can go take a look
11:19:04  <greywall> !SimulationNationHungarymap
11:19:20  <greywall> !SimulationNationHungary Map
11:19:22  <greywall> multiplayer
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11:20:33  <Rubidium> my connection is too crappy at the moment to join network games
11:27:05  <greywall> lol
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11:54:43  * Belugas downloads a 1 gig database. Rather small compared to the other installs...
11:55:15  <Belugas> freaking customers who are freaking over christmas sale :S
11:55:57  <Zuu> Why does C++ templates need to be so tricky to use in class hirarchies?
11:55:59  <Alberth> luckily it happens only once a year
11:56:17  <Alberth> C++ templates tricky?
11:56:52  <Zuu> I can't seem to specify that the template type is a child class of some other class.
11:57:12  <Zuu> So the compiler complains on my typecasts from this base class to the tempalte class.
11:58:07  <Zuu> Eg. template<class T : public Object>
11:58:30  <Zuu> and then cast an Object to/from T
11:58:56  <Alberth> afaik you don't need to specify that, as template expansion happens only when you instantiate with a concrete class
12:01:33  <Zuu> MSVC seem to differ. Though I have lots of other errors to fix so it could be that I'm wrong.
12:04:31  <Alberth> MS has not problems mutulating C++ to fit its engine
12:24:51  <Zuu> It actually looks that it will work after I moved all definitions to the .h-file.
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12:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the declarations
12:29:49  <Alberth> for templates, the definitions :)
12:30:09  <Belugas> only once a year indeed. Now, time for heading to the office
12:30:13  <Belugas> see ya "soon"
12:37:28  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I mean what you usally find in your cpp files.
12:41:39  <planetmaker> enjoy Belugas
12:44:49  * Eddi|zuHause should learn to put questionmarks where they belong
12:46:50  <Alberth> not really, I had the same idea.
12:47:15  <planetmaker> punctuation is highly over-rated: :-P
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12:51:49  <Alberth> haha, you have a different idea of how to make tunnel entrances with other slopes :)
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13:01:02  <Rubidium> you can probably do it relatively easy, but...
13:01:36  <Rubidium> you have to figure out how to build tunnels when there is only one tile raised, i.e. which direction should it go to?
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13:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> autorail-like?
13:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. depending on the position within the tile?
13:04:26  <Rubidium> then you'd definitely need to have some way of showing the direction of the tunnel to get a clue where to look for the other entrance
13:06:51  <planetmaker> Alberth: his suggestion was to allow them also on oblique tiles, right? I think that's far more difficult (and requires far more graphics work)
13:07:00  <Alberth> I was just thinking to add some more graphics, with an extended tunnel tube
13:07:03  <planetmaker> while my mock-up should be pretty straight forward
13:08:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think simple foundations are a better approach... saves trouble with things like "enhanced" tunnelheads
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13:08:49  <Alberth> yeah, it prevents breaking grfs :)
13:09:01  <planetmaker> both is actually a viable approach.
13:09:10  <planetmaker> and IMHO not mutually exclusive
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13:10:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember a mockup with arcades
13:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and i think it will cause a lot more problems than it solves
13:10:50  <planetmaker> yeah, now you mention it. I prefer the solid walls, though
13:11:09  <planetmaker> for that very reason
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13:37:46  <Katje> is there an easy way to list all the gfx sets I have installed ?
13:38:24  <Alberth> gfx sets?
13:38:42  <Alberth> hmm, options menu, drop down 'gfx' or so ?
13:39:07  <Alberth> note that gfx != newgrfs  in my view
13:40:52  <Alberth> 'graphics base sets' is the correct box
13:54:34  <Belugas> zin the offissssssss
13:54:40  <Belugas> hello all
13:55:45  <Katje> erm, what is the term for the extra trains/planes etc... ?
13:56:17  <Alberth> vehicle sets, and they come in NewGRFs
13:56:32  <Alberth> those you can find in the NewGRF settings from the main menu
13:56:32  <Katje> ok
13:56:43  <planetmaker> they are far more than just graphics :-)
13:57:03  <Katje> of course
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14:01:07  <PoopDragon> 0hai. :-)
14:01:50  <Rubidium> moi moi
14:02:43  <PoopDragon> OTTD portable exists, so for those suffering NSISDL AV conflicts, OTTD dload page should offer a Portable version (which has all three base packages in)
14:04:35  <PoopDragon> I, myself, always have this Nullsoft Scriptable Install System problem.
14:06:23  <planetmaker> aha...
14:06:58  <PoopDragon> or, when compiling 1.06, you could possibly look at
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14:07:26  <PoopDragon> there you can find a NSIS script with "source page"
14:07:43  <planetmaker> I suggest you make a patch for that end...
14:08:11  <planetmaker> and submit that to our bug tracker
14:08:45  <PoopDragon> I am not a coder. You could add this to "low priority" part of "to-do" list.
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14:14:11  <Ammler> PoopDragon: is that really portable? /me thinks, they should rename it to WindowsOnlyApp
14:15:28  <Ammler> or it PortableApp a kind of live cd?
14:15:29  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21607 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: Be more robust against having extra bits in HighLightStyle vars.
14:15:50  <Ammler> is*
14:17:14  <PoopDragon> is just a wrapper
14:17:45  <PoopDragon> that supplies wrong folder variables like %appdata% to make it portable
14:17:50  <Ammler> yes, looks quite "unportable"
14:18:19  <PoopDragon> but it's the Windows version's NSIS that causes the package dload problem
14:19:07  <Ammler> PoopDragon: then just use the zip version, that is btw. already portable without any wrapper
14:19:42  <Ammler> (copy the different openttd binaries from the different os)
14:19:45  <PoopDragon> zip version contains NO opengfx
14:19:58  <Ammler> add those to data
14:20:07  <PoopDragon> and Windows installer fails to dload opengfx
14:20:20  <Ammler> you mean the installer from
14:20:26  <PoopDragon> yea
14:21:23  <PoopDragon> so you need to either change the download plugin, or offer a link to version
14:21:57  <Ammler> well, you could report your installation troubles to then
14:22:00  <planetmaker> [15:20]	<PoopDragon>	and Windows installer fails to dload opengfx <-- hu? Which?
14:22:57  <PoopDragon>
14:24:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21608 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: Move diagnonal rectangle dragging detection completely to tile highlighting.
14:25:07  <Rubidium> the downloading of opengfx by the installer works fine for me
14:25:30  <PoopDragon> it's solely AV clogging sockets
14:26:11  <Rubidium> then it's the AV that's causing problems; not something we can easily work around
14:26:34  <PoopDragon> so, when one selects to download "windows" version, 3 versions should be offered: installer, zip, and offline installer (the one from
14:26:42  <Rubidium> and we have explicitly chosen not to put OpenGFX/OpenSFX/OpenMSX in the binary packages
14:27:02  <planetmaker> yeah. Easily also downloaded.
14:27:13  <Rubidium> as in 75% of the cases you'd be downloading 15+ extra MiB that are totally not needed
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14:27:46  <Rubidium> if it were me we wouldn't even had an installer, but for some people it's too hard to extract a zip archive
14:28:27  <PoopDragon> HARD? rightdrag >>> "extract to zipname"
14:28:43  <PoopDragon> ouf
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14:29:24  <Rubidium> it's the kind of people that desperately need to migrate to Mac OS X with it's point-and-drool interface/installing
14:29:39  <Rubidium> s/h it's/h its/
14:29:47  <PoopDragon> OSX is a drop-stop
14:30:43  <PoopDragon> I find it harder to <ret> <tab> <up> <ret> <ret> <wait> <ret> to install, than just right-drag.
14:31:11  <Rubidium> in any case, OpenSFX is some 11 MiB (compressed) that is unlikely to ever change
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14:31:40  <Rubidium> the rest of the stuff is significantly smaller than that, so you'd be carrying 50+% dead weight each time
14:31:49  <Rubidium> which I'd consider a waste of bandwidth and diskspace
14:32:29  <Ammler> well, you could offer a special package "full" or so
14:33:02  <Rubidium> it also means that when e.g. OpenGFX is updated you'd have to wait for the next stable release to get the new version of OpenGFX installed "by default"
14:33:25  <Rubidium> Ammler: yeah, IMO not worth the effort
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14:33:39  <Rubidium> as either you do it for none, or you do it for ALL
14:33:52  <Ammler> the only difference from the portableapps openttd to the zip is the already installed base sets
14:34:42  <Alberth> and you will get a number of people that will not think, and pick full without need
14:35:11  <Alberth> although that will happen now too :(
14:35:15  <planetmaker> most would do that, I recon.
14:35:21  <Rubidium> current release is 208 MiB. Double that and add that 26 * 11 MiB to get almost 700 MiB for each release
14:35:49  <Ammler> well, you have many redundant packages, which are also not really needed
14:36:04  <Rubidium> I've trimmed those quite a bit already
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14:37:39  <planetmaker> otoh other games have a _significantly_ higher download size...
14:37:56  <planetmaker> but those binaries are quite un-optimized from what I could see.
14:38:05  <planetmaker> and bloated with dependencies
14:38:16  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21609 /trunk/src/ (airport_gui.cpp dock_gui.cpp rail_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp): -Fix (r21545,r21552,r21580,r21586): Restore diagonal clearing of areas.
14:38:31  <peter1138> yeah
14:38:45  <peter1138> lots of other projects include their dependencies in the source
14:38:52  <peter1138> (including binaries in there, in some cases)
14:39:03  <peter1138> imbeciles
14:39:24  <Ammler> yes, ad is such a ugly package
14:40:23  <Ammler> they have the binaries in the vcs
14:42:28  <Rubidium> the good old days of lzo being in OpenTTD's source repository
14:42:35  <Rubidium> or still having that md5 implementation
14:44:06  <PoopDragon> free orion? gah, I disliked Master of Orion.
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14:44:14  <PoopDragon> The only crap from Microprose
14:45:48  <planetmaker> MoO is very awesome game :-)
14:46:40  <planetmaker> If I could name three games of "best ever", it'd be the Civ series, MoO2 and *TT*
14:47:11  <planetmaker> maybe SimCity, but then it'd be already 4 ;-)
14:47:30  * frosch123 would put settlers before simcit
14:47:43  <planetmaker> hm, that was good, too. Maybe yes :-)
14:47:49  <Rubidium> stunts! :)
14:47:55  <frosch123> oh, indeed :)
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14:48:33  <frosch123> 50 minutes to drive a filled map :)
14:48:58  <frosch123> (90 when driving a new map first time)
14:50:04  <Prof_Frink> Stunts!
14:50:35  <Prof_Frink> frosch123: Complete with pause at 10min when it warns you it can't save any more replay data
14:50:58  <frosch123> hmm, cannot remember that
14:53:23  <peter1138> ah, stunts...
14:55:16  <Ammler> FreeOrion doesn't have it's own wikipedia page, so might not have big fan base :-)
14:56:14  <planetmaker> Ammler: it does have its own wiki... but yes, it has a small fanbase. Mostly due to the fact that it's replay-factor still is very low
14:56:31  <planetmaker> they by far don't yet implement many functions of e.g. MoO2
14:56:47  <planetmaker> they follow a top-down design approach than bottom up.
14:57:17  <planetmaker> Thus it takes ages till something gets somewhere than allowing to add the different features in anything but their 'final' shape
14:57:26  <planetmaker> *rather than
14:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> is freeorion even playable yet?
14:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it was _very_ alpha when i last checked
14:58:08  <planetmaker> You can play it. But... as said. Not too much fun
14:58:14  <Eddi|zuHause> we made an orion 2 lan last year :)
14:58:22  <planetmaker> he :-)
14:58:45  <planetmaker> I guess I have that CD still somewhere...
14:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow telepathic bugs are overpowered ;)
14:59:44  * PoopDragon hates Master of Orion. It's like attempting to breed Star Control and Civilization. Gah!
15:00:25  * frosch123 always plays telepathic
15:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you get high production early due to unification, you all planets without troopers due to telepathic, you can put those planets to full use immediately due to unification, and you get all techs easily due to improved spying through telepathy
15:00:38  <frosch123> just because it is *** annoying to build transporters :)
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15:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you just get a problem when nobody is creative ;)
15:01:45  <frosch123> creative is crap
15:01:55  <frosch123> far too expensive imo
15:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> well... you need somebody else to be creative for spying to be really effective ;)
15:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you have situations where all others don't research a certain technology
15:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: afair they increased the cost of creative after playtesting
15:03:05  <frosch123> imo there are only like 3 cases where you want more than one technology from one topic
15:03:06  * PoopDragon thinks in future, all games will have GPLed code but proprietary content, or will be pay-to-join-the-server
15:03:13  <planetmaker> well, yeah :-) Playing creative and high production work jointly quite well ;-)
15:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: battle pods and survival pods. factories and fighter bay. biospheres and hydroponic farm
15:04:02  <Prof_Frink> It seems I am somewhat out of practice with Stunts.
15:04:04  <frosch123> however, recently i discovered that nothing is as imbalanced than having gems or gold in you second colony :)
15:04:25  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i only agree with the latter
15:04:45  <frosch123> i never researched survival pods or fighter bays
15:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> are you kidding me?
15:05:17  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i mean fighter bases.
15:05:31  <frosch123> ok, sounds better :)
15:05:57  <Eddi|zuHause> how can you go into a battle without survival pods?
15:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a couple well-placed shots and your best leader is gone?
15:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: also, it gets worse when you're uncreative and don't actually have a choice
15:07:03  <frosch123> i do not consider them very worthy, but maybe that is different in multiplayer
15:07:23  <frosch123> no question, uncreative is very troublesome :)
15:07:59  <PoopDragon> there is a very gay MMO trying to be like Master of Orion.
15:08:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i usually do: -1/2 food, +1 production, unification, poor planet, telepathic, cybernetic and uncreative
15:08:06  <PoopDragon> it's named Galaxy Online.
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15:08:44  <PoopDragon>
15:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you need about 2 spys per empire, and it gets pretty effective
15:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you get one or two spying techs early
15:09:54  <frosch123> me does +2 production, -0.5 income, -10 ground battle, -10 espionage, cybernetic, telepathic and omniscient
15:10:10  <PoopDragon> Hope we aren't getting Colonization or Civilization MMO-ed in next two-three years.
15:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> is omniscient worth it?
15:11:19  <frosch123> you can choose who to engage, you need no scanners, and you know where the good systems are
15:11:38  <frosch123> so you can expand towards them
15:11:50  <frosch123> though also get that knowledge from the old guys
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15:12:16  <frosch123> but usually late, when you know most anyway
15:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, some leaders are omniscient
15:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> something crazy happened to me in my last game: the enemy had a telepathic leader in their system, so i couldn't take it... :p
15:13:38  <frosch123> yeah, that sucks, you need to build transporters suddenly :p
15:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> what's cool with telepathic is that basically in every battle you take over their starbase, and use it against them :p
15:15:21  <Eddi|zuHause> especially when you have neutron blasters :p
15:15:53  <frosch123> hmm, how does telepathic help in taking over starbases?
15:15:53  <PoopDragon> but for me, Orion is just boring. More boring than any FPS's (!)
15:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you can use them after taking over
15:16:24  <frosch123> others cannot do that?
15:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> no :p
15:16:40  <frosch123> he, never noticed :p
15:16:53  <PoopDragon> =_=
15:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: where i mostly need more than one tech of a level is the line where the factories are. you almost every time need to skip something that improves your ships, like heavy armor or better starbases
15:20:18  <PoopDragon> okay, does OTTD installer use variable $PACKAGEDIR?
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15:23:38  <PoopDragon>
15:23:44  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yup, agree on that, but imo it is not worth 8 points
15:26:07  *** PoopDragon is now known as TheDisgustingOne
15:29:52  <TheDisgustingOne> okay, what variable does Open TTD use to refer to where packages are dloaded?
15:30:06  <TheDisgustingOne> OpenTTD installer *
15:38:07  <Belugas> The sources are your friend, my friend
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15:41:12  <TheDisgustingOne> I'm not a coder
15:41:51  <TheDisgustingOne> I pasted a block from Ur-quan masters installer source
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15:42:38  <TheDisgustingOne> all ya need is to add it and replace the variable there with the one your package directory is referred by
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15:55:27  <TheDisgustingOne> your src code is broken, all line end symbols missing
15:57:18  <Belugas> buwhahahha!!!
15:57:24  <TheDisgustingOne> in ms word it works, notepad misses returns
15:57:26  <Belugas> you're a good jojker
15:57:39  <Belugas> -j
15:57:55  <TheDisgustingOne> belugas: not joking, windows notepad misses the return symbol
15:58:04  <TheDisgustingOne> so it all ends as one line
15:58:11  <Belugas> and you call THAT an editor?
15:58:16  <Belugas> it's the worse ever
15:58:33  <Belugas> use ANY OTHER text editor bot that one
15:58:49  <Belugas> from Notepad2, Notepad++ etc..
15:59:01  <robotboy> even WordPad
15:59:09  * Belugas nods
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16:02:18  <Rubidium> notepad's handling of newlines is completely wrong
16:02:39  <robotboy> gnight
16:03:02  <Rubidium> it needs "\r\n" for newlines where "\r" is carriage return, i.e. go to the begin of the line, and "\n" is new line
16:03:57  <Rubidium> what you're trying to open is a file without "\r", so in the worst case the "\n" should go to a new line at the same column it was at, but it fails even at that.
16:04:26  <Rubidium> nevertheless, if you want Windows newlines you should check out the repository on Windows using subversion
16:05:00  <TheDisgustingOne> it works when I opened it in Word
16:05:40  <TheDisgustingOne> M$ just forget to optimize stuff lately. Troll-worms. :-(
16:05:44  *** Marlinc [~marlin@] has joined #openttd
16:05:57  <Marlinc> Can you send a message using rcon
16:05:58  <Marlinc> ?
16:06:10  <TheDisgustingOne> ???
16:06:20  <Marlinc> rcon pass "say "blabla blabla"" doesn't work
16:06:41  <Rubidium> Marlinc: yeah, that might be troublesome with the double quotes
16:06:43  <Marlinc> It works but not correctly
16:06:52  <Marlinc> mm
16:06:55  <Rubidium> it probably works with a single word and without quotes
16:06:55  <TheDisgustingOne> ---
16:07:18  <Marlinc> k
16:07:41  <Rubidium> but saying a single word each time isn't what you're looking for
16:07:49  <Marlinc> Indeed
16:07:50  <TheDisgustingOne> $packagedir not found
16:08:12  <Marlinc> Will it help if i create a little script for it
16:08:20  <Marlinc> And then execute it
16:08:49  <TheDisgustingOne> so how do you tell the libs to dload a package?
16:09:17  <TheDisgustingOne> I mean, how does NSISDL get the destination folder?
16:10:09  <Rubidium> Marlinc: maybe rcon <password> "say \"bla bla bla\"" works
16:10:56  * TheDisgustingOne gives up
16:11:53  * TheDisgustingOne is not a coder. His pseudo-brain has zero capability.
16:12:21  <Marlinc> k
16:12:26  <Marlinc> I will try that Rubidium
16:12:39  <Marlinc> Great
16:12:41  <Marlinc> Thanks Rubidium
16:13:10  <TheDisgustingOne> |=_=|
16:15:55  *** TheDisgustingOne is now known as l1
16:16:04  * l1 explodes
16:16:13  *** l1 [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
16:16:49  * Rubidium guess some fuse just blew
16:19:11  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
16:19:19  <supermop> hello
16:23:56  <planetmaker> Marlinc: rcon passwd say "something stupid" works here... (though we don't need the pw for our rcon-to-IRC bridge)
16:24:03  <planetmaker> hello supermop
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16:24:21  <Marlinc> Ah
16:24:22  <Marlinc> k;)
16:24:52  <supermop> hi planetmaker
16:24:59  <supermop> what is going on today?
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16:25:44  <Marlinc> And planetmaker
16:25:52  <Marlinc> About the autoclean function
16:25:59  <Marlinc> Is there a way
16:26:10  <Marlinc> I can enable autoclean on company's without password
16:26:15  <planetmaker> supermop: silence before the storm... not much going on ;-)
16:26:27  <Marlinc> And that it is disabled on company's with password
16:26:29  <planetmaker> Marlinc: yes. check out your config. I don't know by heart
16:26:47  <planetmaker> there are three different autoclean settings IIRC
16:27:11  <Marlinc> Because the Wiki makes me crazy:p
16:27:12  <Belugas> there was a gus who came in.  he was... refreshing
16:27:17  <Marlinc> It is confusing
16:27:23  <planetmaker> just look at your cfg
16:28:14  <Marlinc> k;)
16:28:31  <planetmaker> autoclean_companies = false autoclean_unprotected = 12 autoclean_protected = 36
16:28:37  <planetmaker> (3 lines though)
16:32:17  <Marlinc> planetmaker, can you reload the config using rcon?
16:32:25  <planetmaker> yes
16:32:30  <planetmaker> reload_config ;-)
16:32:37  <Marlinc> Oke;)
16:32:39  <Marlinc> Thanks:F
16:32:42  <Marlinc> :D*
16:33:00  <planetmaker> use list_cmd in the console
16:33:03  <planetmaker> it tells you all
16:33:05  <planetmaker> or help
16:33:19  <planetmaker> much more efficient than asking for each
16:33:25  <Marlinc> :p
16:33:37  <planetmaker> and yes, the wiki has most. if it misses something, please update
16:33:47  <Marlinc> I first check the wiki
16:33:50  <Marlinc> Always:)
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16:34:29  <Marlinc> planetmaker, 1 question
16:34:50  <Marlinc> I did one's make the console fullscreen
16:34:56  <Marlinc> How?
16:35:32  <Zuu> Never seen that possibility within OpenTTD
16:35:42  <planetmaker> one can enlarge it *somehow*
16:35:45  <planetmaker> no idea how
16:36:03  <Marlinc> I had it one's
16:36:11  <Marlinc> Still thank you
16:36:13  <__ln__> "one's"?  .. like "once"?
16:36:18  <Marlinc> Yes
16:36:20  <Marlinc> Thank you
16:36:26  <Zuu> It is enlarged if you use a bigger window size, but it is more like a portion of the window height.
16:36:37  <Marlinc> I know
16:37:02  <Zuu> If you're courious, I would check the source code.
16:37:10  <Marlinc> :p
16:37:33  <Zuu> I've been digging there once when I implemented the text box focus. Then I had to do a special case for the console.
16:39:50  <Zuu> Hmm, next time I make christmas candy I should get a large deap plate that fit onto any of my pots. Having a deap plate standing on a large one is a huge loss of efficiency.
16:41:00  <Belugas> making candy?  sounds nice :)  how?
16:43:08  <Zuu> Alsmond paste balls with some jam in the middle that are rolled in melted chocklet.
16:43:13  <Zuu> Almond*
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16:44:53  <Belugas> gaaa... what a mess... saliva all over the place now ;)
16:45:03  <Belugas> sounds absolute delight :D
16:45:13  <Belugas> i'm a die hard fan of almonds
16:45:37  <Belugas> so is my son, to the big despair of my wife !
16:46:04  <supermop> sounds good!
16:46:08  <Belugas> we eat a whole bar of almond paste just by ourselves, with nothing on it
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16:46:19  <supermop> i made gingersnaps last night
16:46:21  <Zuu> I could do that as well :-)
16:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> Marlinc: rcon passwd say "something stupid" works here... (though we don't need the pw for our rcon-to-IRC bridge) <-- maybe you have a patch like applied?
16:46:35  <Zuu> I have one 200gram bar left ^^
16:46:57  <Belugas> what jam flavor?
16:47:09  <Belugas> peach should be dazzling good
16:48:24  <planetmaker> we have no rcon patch applied
16:48:58  <planetmaker> but it probably works as ap+ directly works on the console
16:48:59  <Zuu> Some with lingonberry jam, orange marmelade and cherry marmelade.
16:49:09  <planetmaker> and rcon is only the keyword to pipe that thing to the console
16:49:24  <Zuu> Only one type of jam in each.
16:49:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ah, so ap+ actually does some preprocessing
16:50:05  <planetmaker> well. it needs to know what to send to the console
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16:50:25  <planetmaker> like this chatter here would have probably to be prefixed by "say" in order to appear ingame
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16:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i should read the logs again to see why that patch wasn't included...
16:54:56  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21610 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: some svn properties were wrong
16:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i find no evidence on anyone ever testing this patch.
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18:08:08  <Marlinc> Is there a way to lower the CPU usage on the server?
18:10:38  <Ammler> Marlinc: use dedicated
18:11:14  <Marlinc> It is:P
18:11:49  <Ammler> the server needs around as much cpu as a client
18:12:00  <Marlinc> k
18:12:35  <Ammler> you can't run a openttd server on a 100Mhz box
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18:27:25  <Marlinc> Ammler, :p
18:27:29  <Marlinc> It is 3ghz
18:28:04  <Marlinc> I'm just asking if there a way to lower it
18:29:45  <glx> what's the map size ?
18:29:49  <ABCRic> Set low priority :P
18:30:10  <Marlinc> 1024x1024
18:30:45  <glx> then high CPU usage is normal :)
18:30:54  <Marlinc> Oke;)
18:30:59  <Marlinc> Thank you glevans2
18:31:01  <Marlinc> glx, *
18:31:31  <planetmaker> I'd expect for that size not too much usage for a new map (15%?). For a map with many vehicles... yes :-)
18:31:59  <Marlinc> It is now running at 12%
18:32:14  <glx> that's very low :)
18:32:25  <Marlinc> Oke:)
18:32:40  <planetmaker> that's nothing
18:32:41  <Zuu> Hmm, what usefull things can you do with the "Rescan files" in the in-game NewGRF dialog (trunk)?
18:33:08  <planetmaker> Zuu: download new one while OpenTTD is running
18:33:18  <planetmaker> (manual download)
18:33:32  <planetmaker> or for grf developers so that the grf info is updated
18:33:32  <Zuu> But you can't add them to a running game, so why can you make OpenTTD detect them?
18:33:46  <planetmaker> Zuu: it also is necessary from main menu
18:34:11  <planetmaker> or rather there it is mostly necessary
18:34:41  <Zuu> Sure, but as I see it, parts of the GUI from the main menu has been hidden/removed in the in-game NewGRF dialog since the decision to disable in-game changing of NewGRFs.
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18:45:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21611 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 147 changes by arnau
18:45:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: danish - 45 changes by Gummipalle
18:45:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
18:46:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 changes by IPG
18:46:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 changes by fanioz
18:46:52  <planetmaker> nice... outside everything is meanwhile covered by 1cm of ice...
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18:47:40  <Zuu> I hope that you're not heading anywhere.
18:48:05  <planetmaker> not today anymore nor the next two days really
18:48:20  <planetmaker> but after that I'd like to be able to use my car...
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18:55:49  <supermop> i am excited about this development in egrvts
18:56:09  <supermop> maybe i will try to draw something
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19:11:08  <planetmaker> hm, were there recent changes to egrvts?
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19:26:39  <supermop> 'pimp my sprites'
19:30:33  <planetmaker> oh, that's new :-)
19:30:51  <planetmaker> yes, Zephyris' nice modular sprites generation scripts for ImageJ... :-)
19:33:37  <supermop> planetmaker, are you german?
19:34:11  <planetmaker> well. What if...?
19:34:43  <supermop> i maybe asked you this already, but are you familiar with old Braun audio equipment?
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19:52:12  <Dante123> good evening
19:53:06  <Dante123> and lets start my joining on the way i always do ;) : i need help with a (maybe simple) problem on my station coding :)
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19:59:40  <andythenorth> efening
19:59:52  <supermop> hello andy
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20:01:19  <Dante123> hey andy
20:01:47  <Dante123> did you see by acedent my topic here?
20:01:50  <Dante123> :D
20:02:25  <Dante123> i hate to have like 3 menu items to cover all my Buffer variables for station tiles
20:02:40  <Dante123> but really have some problems to get it coded into 1 item :/
20:03:23  <planetmaker> hello Dante123 & andythenorth
20:03:30  <Dante123> finnaly have vacation now so i will have lots of time to get some big work going on on my grf :D
20:03:36  <Dante123> hi planetmaker
20:04:21  <Dante123> today i was trying to see how ISR did the buffer trick
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20:04:31  <Dante123> i also posted that in my topic about thet dep. sprite thing
20:04:54  <Dante123> tried to break down the codes he has there, but cant make cheese out of it :/
20:07:03  <planetmaker> I saw your reply. But I have never looked at station coding really...
20:07:28  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
20:07:35  <andythenorth> me neither
20:11:29  <Dante123> i understand :)
20:12:01  <Dante123> i was trying to break down that code from ISR but cant find all that numbers back on the wiki
20:12:27  <planetmaker> Dante123: do you have the real source of ISR or just the decompiled grf?
20:12:28  <Dante123> well i can code the buffers as separate station ID's but than it will be 3 menu items
20:12:37  <Dante123> just the decompiled one
20:12:44  <Dante123> is that one open source ? :|
20:13:02  <planetmaker> you should get a checkout of the real source:
20:13:14  <planetmaker> it might have more comments. Yes, it's licensed under GPL v2
20:13:18  <Dante123> DOH. of that was a fail from my side :P
20:14:25  <Terkhen> heh, I should install MOO2 :)
20:14:59  <Dante123> planetmaker seems like i fail again, i cant find a download/view button ?
20:15:15  <Dante123> planetmaker nvm
20:15:17  <planetmaker> well... it's a repository. You need mercurial
20:15:31  <planetmaker> or browse it online
20:16:21  <andythenorth> Dante123:
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20:17:49  <Dante123> pff confuses me even more xD
20:19:44  <Dante123> it should be in fixtures
20:19:51  <Dante123> but when i search for buffer here:
20:19:54  <Dante123> no results
20:20:40  <planetmaker>
20:20:42  <planetmaker>
20:20:44  <planetmaker>
20:20:46  <planetmaker> for how to get going with HG
20:21:03  <Dante123> hg ?
20:22:01  <planetmaker> mercurial
20:22:14  <planetmaker> a version control system. Keeping track of source code changes
20:22:49  <Dante123> ahaa to start too myself you mean ?
20:23:11  <Dante123> will dive into that tomorrow i guess, too tired to dive too much into that now :)
20:23:19  <planetmaker> well. Then you can easily get the whole checkout. And it will IMHO help you, too
20:23:38  <planetmaker> your newgrf starts to get dfinitely complex enough to make it really worthwhile
20:23:57  <planetmaker> it needs a bit getting used to, but has clear advantages. Both for yourself as when it comes to sharing code
20:24:27  <Dante123> yea ur right
20:24:41  <andythenorth> Dante123: worth learning
20:24:48  <andythenorth> makes you feel smarter ;)
20:24:49  <planetmaker> anyway: look at platforms.nfo
20:24:54  <Dante123> my goal is still to get a station tile set with sim. quality to ISR :P
20:25:19  <planetmaker> platforms.nfo seems to have the buffers
20:25:39  <Dante123> ah i see
20:25:39  <Dante123> thanx
20:25:57  <Dante123> lets try to see if i can follow what he is doing
20:26:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21612 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix (r21608): dragging with HT_POINT was half a tile off
20:26:10  <Dante123> i want to start adding platforms now too to my set
20:26:18  <Dante123> will post some of the previews now btw
20:26:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yeah. Intially I also thought like "what the crap". But it really changed the way I could deal with sources
20:26:24  <planetmaker> saved tons of time
20:26:37  <planetmaker> both here but also at work
20:26:38  <Dante123> this should also be in some "how to start" page
20:27:10  <Dante123> it really help (for me) GREATLY to have some example code to look at while having the wiki next to it
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20:27:15  <planetmaker> Dante123: well... It's not strictly needed.
20:27:20  <planetmaker> but it helps a lot :-)
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20:27:44  <planetmaker> and the three links I gave... that's a "how to start" page ;-)
20:27:59  <planetmaker> though it targets in particular our DevZone, but well.
20:28:15  <planetmaker> it works also in general, if you skip the specific stuff
20:28:57  <Dante123> posted my platforms preview now btw:
20:29:06  <Dante123> all comments are welcome :)
20:29:12  * Zuu want instant compiling for cristmas present :-)
20:29:33  * andythenorth wants cb28 fixed
20:29:59  <andythenorth>
20:30:01  <andythenorth> :D
20:30:28  <planetmaker> Dante123: what's with the \ view: there seems to the the rised platform also in the North-East?
20:30:35  <andythenorth> oops wrong fs task
20:30:41  <planetmaker> while the edges for the / view are all low
20:30:48  <andythenorth>
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20:32:12  <Dante123> dont understand what you mean planetmaker ?
20:32:35  <planetmaker> look at the edges of the / platforms: they're all low
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20:32:59  <planetmaker> then look at the edges of the \ platform. There only the lower border is low, the upper (North) border is also rised
20:33:01  <Dante123> low ?
20:33:33  <Dante123> they are all high platforms ?
20:33:41  <planetmaker> between tracks your platforms are elevated.
20:33:46  <Dante123> and have ramps on both sides
20:34:15  <planetmaker> yes. But they have no platform when they're at the edge, i.e. no further platform in that direction. At least in the / view
20:34:20  <Dante123> they are the same hight on both sides ?
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20:35:03  <Dante123> ooh yrea in the / example i did single platform tiles
20:35:14  <Dante123> normal you have like platform-rail-platform
20:35:55  <Dante123> in the / view i did 1 side tiles at both NW and SE sides
20:36:09  <Dante123> if thats what you mean ?
20:36:41  <planetmaker> <-- that
20:36:51  <planetmaker> the borders with the same colour are alike.
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20:37:58  <Dante123> yea
20:38:13  <planetmaker> looks like a bug :-)
20:38:16  <Dante123> at that red circle i did not add the 1 sided platform tiles ?
20:38:22  <planetmaker> yeah
20:38:31  <Dante123> the yellow circle ones are OK right ?
20:38:32  <planetmaker> I thought that might happen automatically. But maybe better not
20:38:42  <planetmaker> well. "ok" depends upon what you expect
20:38:50  <planetmaker> I just wondered about the difference
20:39:14  <planetmaker> it's all ok, if I can choose all different tiles individually and you just made it that way. Might even be the more desirable option
20:39:32  <Dante123> oh yea
20:39:39  <Dante123> as you can see on the pic 1 on my post
20:39:47  <Dante123> that are the building options in the menu
20:39:52  <planetmaker> And then adding some other bigger "overall" stations like ISR's steel station where the borders are automatically defined. Might be an idea
20:40:09  <Dante123> so at this poitn all can be chosen separate
20:40:17  <planetmaker> where one just drags an area and the border would be selected automatically
20:40:20  <planetmaker> ok :-)
20:40:47  <Dante123> yea exactly. that is why i try to figure out how that crap works with choosing a sprite dep. on the adjacent one
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20:40:59  <Dante123> but so for i fail to understand :p
20:41:20  <planetmaker> he
20:41:58  <Dante123> but once i figure that out i can also make sprites bigger than 1x1
20:42:18  <Dante123> already have some ideas in my head to draw, but dont know how to code the ideas :p
20:42:52  <Wolf01> 2x2?
20:42:59  <Wolf01> or 1x2?
20:43:20  <Dante123> well want to start off with something like 2x2 or 2x1
20:43:28  <Dante123> but have also plans for even bigger ones
20:44:01  <Wolf01> 5x5 opens nice combinations like readable letters
20:44:13  <Dante123> the real goal will be that a player can "build" huge industrial terminals including the industrial terrains
20:44:28  <Wolf01> newobjects!!!!
20:44:35  <Dante123> also yes
20:45:00  <Dante123> for the industrial terrains/terminals is see it more as stations
20:45:20  <Dante123> because the whole terrain makes part of the industrial terrain in that case
20:45:32  <Dante123> an thus is part of the infrastructure of the station
20:46:15  <andythenorth> @seen Danmack
20:46:16  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Danmack was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 16 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: * DanMacK is off, and to everyone, a Merry Christmas, Happy Holiday and all that jazz
20:46:21  <andythenorth> hmm
20:46:26  <andythenorth> seems like he's gone :o
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20:48:08  <Dante123> pff 1 of my gameservers has problems again :/
20:49:29  <Dante123> still should ask the sponsor to open some Ottd server too
20:53:03  <planetmaker> Dante123: you're - if you like - also welcome to join our server(s) or supply maps for our stable server. The only condition for the latter is to have insane ship, aircraft and terraform costs by means of the basecost newgrf
20:53:34  <planetmaker> (well, and that used newgrfs are all bananad already ;-) )
20:55:15  <Dante123> well i already run some gameservers for a other game too
20:55:37  <Dante123> that is because a friend of mine is the owner of a gameserver rental company :D
20:55:50  <planetmaker> :-)
20:55:52  <planetmaker> convenient
20:55:56  <Dante123>
20:56:04  <Dante123> yea so atm i run them for free :P
20:56:17  <Dante123> but dunno if he wants to add openttd too as a game
20:56:26  <planetmaker> would be a first ;-)
20:56:30  <planetmaker> I guess
20:56:36  <Dante123> i guess he has to test first how they act on the servers
20:57:10  <planetmaker> they eat one core and a bit memory. Not much else needed. The overall traffic should not be too high
20:57:18  <planetmaker> just map download eats traffic
20:57:46  <Dante123> bah
20:57:49  <Dante123> thats nothing
20:58:05  <Dante123> currently i have a 20 slots ET server and a 40 slots ET server
20:58:08  <andythenorth> planetmaker: wondering if the OS X build of OTTD can show the version number in 'About OpenTTD' window?
20:58:08  <andythenorth> probably tmwftlb
20:58:13  <Dante123> av. visitors a day is around 100
20:58:19  <Dante123> av. mapsize is 10 MB :P
20:58:30  <Dante123> so that traffic will be waay bigger anyway
20:58:30  * andythenorth adventures into actual OS X code, where he has feared to tread before
20:58:33  <planetmaker> 10BM? sounds big
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20:58:39  <Dante123> Wolf:ET
20:58:46  <Dante123> maybe you know itr
20:59:00  <Dante123> like quake 3 only in WO 2 style
20:59:12  <Dante123> made some maps for that too :P
20:59:22  * planetmaker doesn't know
20:59:35  <Dante123> :o
20:59:39  <planetmaker> andythenorth: what would be the benefit as it's always shown in the title line
21:00:01  <andythenorth> good point
21:00:09  <andythenorth> I have the hg version
21:00:25  <andythenorth> I am wondering if I can learn enough to show that, then add the svn version
21:00:29  <planetmaker> andythenorth: then the about window would show the hg version there, too
21:00:37  <andythenorth> probably I'll get bored of the idea way before I achieve success :P
21:00:47  <andythenorth> I'll probably end up writing nfo :P
21:01:01  <planetmaker> it's not about writing C++. It's about hacking the version detection, andythenorth ;-)
21:01:13  <planetmaker> thus messing with and config.lib
21:01:13  <Dante123> here is a sample of Wolf:ET
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21:02:17  <Ammler> I guess, those server don't need that much power as openttd
21:02:34  <Dante123> dont know :/
21:02:41  <Ammler> also "slots" don't really matter for openttd
21:02:42  <andythenorth> planetmaker: boredom caught up with me already :)
21:02:58  <Dante123> plus i think he doesnt waht to lose cores to a game that doesnt make profits :
21:03:17  <Dante123> and to be honest, i dotn think much people want to pay for a openttd server :P
21:03:43  <Ammler> and the prize for buying a server there, you can buy your own vps
21:04:02  <Dante123> dunno what a vps will cost
21:04:15  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I even once had a patch for that :-P
21:04:25  <Dante123> i guess a openttd server, it at a gameserver company, will be aprox 7 euro a month
21:04:36  <Dante123> just a rough guess
21:04:42  <planetmaker> hm...
21:04:45  <andythenorth> I'll do something useful instead...
21:04:46  <planetmaker> @calc 50/7
21:04:46  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 7.14285714286
21:04:51  <planetmaker> hm possibly
21:05:15  <Ammler> a vps is around 10-20€, not 50
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21:05:41  <planetmaker> Ammler: I meant if we used our server's cpu totally for openttd
21:05:56  <Hyronymus> good evening
21:06:09  <planetmaker> hi Hyronymus
21:06:15  <Ammler> we could host max 7 servers at same time, indeed :-)
21:06:17  <Dante123> yellloww
21:06:29  <Hyronymus> who's up to a little devzone guidance :P
21:06:36  <Hyronymus> *up for
21:06:45  <Ammler> so around 50 servers at once
21:06:55  <Dante123> mm i gues openttd should take over the Wolf:ET system for joining a server
21:07:17  *** fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
21:07:19  <Dante123> when you click to connect, it will auto download all maps/mods (for openttd grf's) that you need to play on that specific server
21:07:25  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: what's up?
21:07:39  <Ammler> Dante123: would be nice, indeed :-)
21:07:45  <Hyronymus> I'm on the verge of creating the Dutch Townnames set
21:07:52  <Dante123> most games work that way
21:07:53  <Hyronymus> I have tortoise installed
21:08:02  <Hyronymus> and the other stuff too
21:08:13  <Hyronymus> mingw etc
21:08:18  <Ammler> well, openttd almost too, just needs some clicks
21:08:19  <planetmaker> oi
21:08:53  <Hyronymus> I clicked New Project in the devzone
21:08:57  <Hyronymus> filled in a few things
21:09:00  <planetmaker> can you already create a new project on the devzone yourself? Ok.
21:09:21  <Hyronymus> identification isn't the same as grfid?
21:09:30  <Dante123> well i you just look at a fastdownload server at gs4you
21:09:39  <Dante123> is only 299 for 2GB parkingspace
21:09:46  <Dante123> an than you have unlimited bandwith
21:10:46  <planetmaker> oh, no, not the grfID. I'd use dutchtowns in your case
21:10:56  <Hyronymus> ok
21:11:33  <Hyronymus> and all settings for trackers are ok as they are by default?
21:11:55  <planetmaker> yes. and select the modules 'repository'
21:12:21  <Hyronymus> ok
21:12:40  <planetmaker> and possibly 'members' well... and 'issue tracking' :-)
21:13:06  <planetmaker> ok, no module Members. My memory failed me there
21:13:12  <Hyronymus> too late :P
21:13:24  <Hyronymus> but i guess I can enable issue tracking later?
21:13:26  <planetmaker> can be changed any time
21:13:28  <planetmaker> yes
21:13:45  <planetmaker> want to join #openttdcoop.devzone ?
21:14:13  <planetmaker> you might then see there in IRC ...
21:14:17  <planetmaker> [22:14]	<Brot6>	repository /home/hg/dutchtowns registered in Redmine with url /home/hg/dutchtowns
21:14:19  <planetmaker> [22:14]	<Brot6>	repository /home/hg/dutchtowns created
21:14:21  <planetmaker> ^ that actually
21:15:39  <andythenorth> grrr
21:15:49  * andythenorth has overlooked a little problem
21:16:06  <andythenorth> I can't do refittable capacity for a vehicle that has only one cargo type
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21:17:11  <planetmaker> why not, andythenorth ?
21:17:23  <planetmaker> you have to add cargo subtypes. Then it *should* afaik work
21:17:38  <planetmaker> then the user can refit it to different capacities
21:17:40  *** Dante123 [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
21:17:54  <planetmaker> you just have to give the babies their names ;-)
21:19:38  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:19:38  <planetmaker> or do I grossly err on that?
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21:36:57  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: looks like the auto-orders.diff didn't get updated last night
21:37:29  <fonsinchen> hmm, ok, I'll push another update
21:38:01  <Rubidium> not really necessary as I won't have time to look at it till the weekend
21:38:25  <fonsinchen> it doesn't automatically create a patch if there's a conflict and sometimes I forget to do that manually
21:41:11  <fonsinchen> now it's up to date.
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21:44:39  <Rubidium> that diff looks significantly simpler :)
21:47:00  <fonsinchen> I sure hope so - after the merge
21:47:13  <fonsinchen> (it was quite simple, though)
21:50:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21613 /trunk/src/lang/ (35 files in 2 dirs): -Update: sync comments in the translation files with English for some recently untouched translations
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21:52:05  <__ln__> -30 °C
21:52:58  <Terkhen> wow :S
21:57:38  <__ln__> doesn't happen every year at these southern latitudes
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21:58:34  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: I think I'd have to read the magic (and scary) diagram frosch made about refitting :P
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22:00:23  <andythenorth> hmm
22:00:27  <andythenorth> sorry, disconnected
22:00:49  <planetmaker> nothing happend anyway ;-)
22:02:26  <Belugas> merry christmas all!
22:02:41  <Zuu> __ln__: Heh nice :-) I read it has gone below -20 in Skåne recently during the night, but that's still warmer than -30.
22:03:13  <Xaroth> happy hols Belugas
22:04:45  * andythenorth owes frosch cookies
22:05:06  <andythenorth> a picture is worth 1k words, or at least this one is:
22:06:11  <Xaroth> that picture HAS 1k words :P
22:07:12  <andythenorth> it has 1k arrows :P
22:07:16  * andythenorth ponders
22:07:27  <andythenorth> what refitted capacities should FISH log raft have?
22:07:33  <andythenorth> max is about 400t
22:07:46  <andythenorth> most industry sets have forests that start around 100t / month
22:09:21  <supermop> something less than that
22:09:25  <supermop> 25 or so
22:09:33  <supermop> as the minimum
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22:32:11  <z-MaTRiX> i remember max is 200t/mo
22:32:17  <z-MaTRiX> 2000t/mo
22:32:45  <z-MaTRiX> ok im late
22:40:14  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21614 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
22:40:14  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix: the spelling of some of the documentation
22:40:14  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update: some of the documentation
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23:00:24  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21615 /tags/1.1.0-beta1/ (. src/os/windows/ -Release: 1.1.0-beta1
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23:09:45  <avdg> yay
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23:19:52  <__ln__> argh, what a license: "You agree not to use the Work for illegal, immoral or improper purposes, or on pages containing illegal, immoral or improper material."  the "Code Project Open License".
23:20:08  <supermop> ha
23:20:24  <supermop> how does one define 'immoral' in legal terms
23:20:41  <__ln__> and who defines it
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23:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "open source is immoral because it undermines the foundation of capitalistic society"
23:49:54  <Eddi|zuHause> [aka: the evil communists invented open source]
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23:54:59  <Wolf01> I had a discussion today, I told I'm writing some lecture notes (I don't know if is the exact term), my interlocutor suggested me to sell them, I replied I'm sure I'll release them on the Interwebz! once finished :D

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